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View Full Version : Limited Encounter Recovery Threshold Variant, Vancian Tome of battle



ocel
2011-07-03, 01:00 AM
Limited Encounter Recovery threshold: In this variant, a Martial Adept can recover Maneuvers (Level + Highest Mental Mod)/2 times per day; with the exception of 3 additional times beyond their recovery threshold, that in turn incur penalties upon the adept, which gradually increase till unconsciousness, in other-words, Fatigued > Exhausted > Unconscious

Credits: This variant was a collaborative project by: DmofDarkness Quellian-dyrae ocel

DracoDei
2011-07-03, 01:06 AM
As I mentioned in PM, this could perhaps use a counter-balance to keep the power level the same.

At higher levels it doesn't matter nearly as much, so a static (rather than scaling/repeating as level increases) bonus seems indicated.

It encourages either hoarding maneuvers or using them like crazy, since it has the same cost to refresh after battle (assuming the "wait five minutes" thing counts as refreshing) if you are getting 1 maneuver back as if you are getting 7 back.

It interacts very oddly with Crusaders in any case.

Perhaps 1 additional maneuver known and prepared would be a good balancing factor? I would say just prepared, except that warblades and crusaders prepare ALL their maneuvers at lower levels.

Hazzardevil
2011-07-03, 04:23 AM
What makes you think we nede to restrict maneuvers like this? I don't see why.

Morph Bark
2011-07-03, 05:28 AM
Before you limit encounter recovery, you first must define when an encounter has ended, or what an encounter is.

gkathellar
2011-07-03, 06:01 AM
What makes you think we nede to restrict maneuvers like this? I don't see why.

Seconded. Why exactly do you feel it's necessary to do this?

Dead_Jester
2011-07-03, 08:51 AM
I have to say, I just don't see the point of this variant.

This variant, unlike vanciant magic, is very biased towards higher levels. Vanciant magic and the quadratic progression of spells makes it so the higher level spells are much more useful, but come in limited slots, whilst maneuver recovery makes it so your higher level slots are limited in practice, but theoretically unlimited (you can refresh them, but usually can't spam them). As such, this fails to really limit the use of higher level maneuvers, but makes the early levels much harder (as you run out of maneuvers and of recoveries much faster).

At first level, when everybody is playing rocket tag and you really need an edge, you might be able to refresh your maneuvers once or twice per day, forcing you to have 15 minute work days (which is against the very deign philosophy of ToB).

However, at higher levels, you can probably refresh your maneuvers more times then you'll ever need, because the casters will run out of higher level spells before you run out of refreshes.

In essence, this fix makes ToB less useful at low levels (where its impact is considerable) without impacting it much after the mid levels, all the while going against what is probably a defining characteristic of ToB.

DracoDei
2011-07-03, 11:31 AM
all the while going against what is probably a defining characteristic of ToB.

Which is exactly the point unfortunately. This is a way of talking a GM who thinks that ToB is overpowered into allowing it, by making it more like spell-casting. Now I disagree with such a GM, but given their existence, this is perhaps a good idea.

Temotei
2011-07-03, 11:40 AM
Is it possible to heal the fatigue and exhaustion effects in order to allow more recoveries per day?

DracoDei
2011-07-03, 11:44 AM
I would think so, otherwise the "Unconscious" part for the last emergency recovery would be sorta pointless... and yes, that does make IHS more desirable, even by a generally reasonable reading of IHS. Perhaps that should be specifically disallowed, but perhaps not.

ocel
2011-07-03, 09:42 PM
Responses:
Dracodei #9: You are correct in that it was originally designed to be a compromise for more traditional game-masters, & granted its not a perfect solution, far from it, but I'm sure, there is a means to circumvent this handicap with more immediate resolutions for the penalties. It hasn't been established but I'm not against them being able to be healed from those status effects.
Dead_Jester #6: thank you for your analysis; higher levels are more ideal for this variant.
Dracodei #15: Again, imperfections, & I was too curt for my presentation, another thing to amend.
Gkathellar: Sadly not all, are as enthusiastic over a character being able to recover their spell-like abilities/maneuvers in 5 seconds or less, (I'm not but others are); this is a compromise; & admittedly not the best.

Tanuki Tales
2011-07-03, 09:45 PM
Why are we continuing to try and make it a permanent truth that Melee can't have nice things? :smallconfused:

ocel
2011-07-03, 09:47 PM
Why are we continuing to try and make it a permanent truth that Melee can't have nice things? :smallconfused:
I ask myself that from time to time as well, but this project is supposed to preserve those very nice things, with a cost of course.

Curious
2011-07-03, 11:20 PM
I ask myself that from time to time as well, but this project is supposed to preserve those very nice things, with a cost of course.

Nice things=Nice things.

Nice things-some of the nice=not so nice things.

Honestly, if there are DM's who would still ban ToB for being 'overpowered', they probably have not ever seen or played with a true wizard, and as such probably wouldn't need this in the first place. Just leave 'em alone, I say.

gkathellar
2011-07-04, 02:05 AM
Sadly not all, are as enthusiastic over a character being able to recover their spell-like abilities/maneuvers in 5 seconds or less, (I'm not but others are); this is a compromise; & admittedly not the best.

As opposed to all those casters whose abilities just never appreciably expire? A lot of a caster's most powerful abilities are long-duration abilities, that's why running out makes a kind of mechanical sense, and for the most part you don't ever really run out anyway. (A 6th-level druid in Fleshraker form, buffed with Enhanced Wild Shape and Venomfire, is dealing out 7d6 damage on each of his four attacks per round for 12 hours per day, which he can use on a charge with pounce. That's just off the top of my head.)

How do you come to the conclusion that when melee gets nice things, they need to come at a cost, when spellcasters don't substantively suffer from the same and are a bajillion time more powerful to boot?

DracoDei
2011-07-04, 10:47 AM
How do you come to the conclusion that when melee gets nice things, they need to come at a cost, when spellcasters don't substantively suffer from the same and are a bajillion time more powerful to boot?
Don't think he did.
Think he came to the conclusion that "Some GMs are stupid. Real life diplomacy checks are needed. Need a real life circumstance bonus sometimes."