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some guy
2011-07-05, 07:07 AM
Alright, so I've got a player who seems to be at the low end of the pecking order and I'm wondering how to deal with it.

The situation:
I'm DM'ing a group of four players, we all know each other but three are close friends of each other (let's call these three Tom, Richard and Harry). This is their first D&D campaign (next week we've got our sixth session), but I've played some one shots with them before. They work good as a team, but Tom and Richard seem to talk Harry down*.
Things like when Harry misses an opponent while using power attack, it's his fault for using power attack; but when Harry hits an opponent while using power attack and deals great damage, it's because Harry got lucky. It's quite normal for people to say things as "Argh, you shouldn't have done X.", but the way they do it has a mean-spirited side.

In the first few sessions the fourth player also joined in on ridiculing Harry's actions, but he seems to have noticed that this ridiculing was constant and only centred on Harry. The last session he seemed more appreciative of Harry's actions and provided him with high-fives.

A friend of mine, who knows all these people, also has noticed that when Tom and Richard talk about D&D, they talk Harry down. He suggested it could come from the fact they all play a lot video/computer games together and are quite competitive during these games. He reckoned this competitiveness could be seeping through in our D&D.

As of this moment, it's not yet a big problem and doesn't happen that often. Harry still seems to enjoy the game and the guys have great team work. I just feel uncomfortable when it happens and I don't want Harry's enjoyment of the game to diminish.

I haven't talked to the group yet, because I first wanted to hear the advice of the playground and wasn't sure where to start (first talk to player 4 about his experiences with it, first talk to Harry how he feels about it, talk with the group as a whole, etc. etc.).


*One could argue that Tom, Richard and Harry aren't that close as friends, but I don't feel like it's my place to argue that. Outside of D&D I have never noticed this problem.

The Random NPC
2011-07-05, 07:29 AM
I would talk with Harry, see if he notices it and make sure he knows you support him. After that, see what he wants to do about it.
Edit:
I believe most answers will be along the lines of do what you think is best, we don't know as much about your group as you do, and people have good instincts.
Also I am not a therapist, so don't take my advice as professional advice.

Sorcerer Blob
2011-07-05, 09:37 AM
Definitely talk to Harry first. See if he notices.

The fact that you and another player noticed it is enough, in my opinion. Frankly, it is creating a potentially negative environment for gaming, it doesn't matter how competitive they are in video games they play together, this is D&D and it isn't competitive. It's about working together as a team and attitudes like that are not constructive.

I've dealt with players like that and didn't say something for the longest time. When I finally said something, tension raised at the table as they were being called out, but after that they stopped.

Talk to Tom and Richard and tell them to stop being such Richards (4 letter variant...) to not just Harry, anyone at the table. It's unacceptable and a sign of immaturity. If they can't get over acting like that then I'd reconsider having them at my table..

Vladislav
2011-07-05, 09:46 AM
Seems like there are two players on the "evil" side and two on the "good" side. Simple solution: be the third on the "good" side.

Without getting confrontational with Tom and Richard, join the fourth player in being appreciative of Harry. Don't coddle to him too much and don't compromise your neutrality as a DM, but it's okay to congratulate him on his successes and commiserate on his failures. Start by simply saying "ouch, bad luck" when he misses, and when he hits, "nicely done!". When they start verbally abusing Harry, quickly push to move the game along. If they talk him down for something that's basically a bad luck on the die, it's okay to note that as well... "dudes, give it a rest, it's just a bad roll; now, moving on, the Fire Giant swings his sword and ..."

Very soon the two other players will notice that with their behavior they are in fact in the minority, and will draw the appropriate conclusions.

Sebastrd
2011-07-05, 10:05 AM
Talk to the players as a group. Tell them you've noticed the tendency, don't appreciate it, and the behavior isn't welcome at your table.

Assuming the players are young (21 or younger), point out that you run a mature game, expect mature behavior from your players, and that you game with them all because you believe they can handle it.

Basically, you want to address the undesirable behavior, but follow it up with a compliment.

Anxe
2011-07-05, 12:09 PM
I do the same thing in my group actually. I talk down "Boin" a lot and usually when a PC gets burned by something it will be Boin's character. It's just part of the group dynamic. It's almost a running joke. If you feel its a problem then you should talk to Harry to see if he wants you to do something about it. As for me, Boin is my best friend. It's just how our friendship works I guess.

Pink
2011-07-05, 12:27 PM
This is a phenomena I've encountered before that I like to call 'the whipping boy'.

It's something personally beyond my understanding, but seems to be found mostly amongst a group of friends that have known each for a long time. For whatever reason its common, or just expected, to give a rough time, if not be outright rude in situations, to one member of the group. And for the most part, this seems accepted by that person. Whether its because they're the youngest, or have a history of being a bit dim, or just somehow a mechanic of how the group functions, it boggles me in that it usually works without any particular incident.

Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't check in to make sure that the third party isn't actually offended, but if it just seems to be aspect of the friendship that none of the three seem to think is wrong, maybe you should just leave them in the dysfunctional, but working, friendship.

Fiery Diamond
2011-07-05, 12:29 PM
Seems like there are two players on the "evil" side and two on the "good" side. Simple solution: be the third on the "good" side.

Without getting confrontational with Tom and Richard, join the fourth player in being appreciative of Harry. Don't coddle to him too much and don't compromise your neutrality as a DM, but it's okay to congratulate him on his successes and commiserate on his failures. Start by simply saying "ouch, bad luck" when he misses, and when he hits, "nicely done!". When they start verbally abusing Harry, quickly push to move the game along. If they talk him down for something that's basically a bad luck on the die, it's okay to note that as well... "dudes, give it a rest, it's just a bad roll; now, moving on, the Fire Giant swings his sword and ..."

Very soon the two other players will notice that with their behavior they are in fact in the minority, and will draw the appropriate conclusions.

First try this, before doing anything else. If you bring it up to Harry first, and Harry wasn't aware of it, he will be now, and you could accidentally make the situation worse. Basically, follow player 4's lead. However, to make it not seem like favoritism, I would attempt to do this with all the players to some extent.


I do the same thing in my group actually. I talk down "Boin" a lot and usually when a PC gets burned by something it will be Boin's character. It's just part of the group dynamic. It's almost a running joke. If you feel its a problem then you should talk to Harry to see if he wants you to do something about it. As for me, Boin is my best friend. It's just how our friendship works I guess.

This is, however, another thing to consider. Is it actually mean-spirited? A lot of what seems mean-spirited versus teasing can heavily depend on shared history and different backgrounds. I have a few friends (one in particular) to whom I say, in regular life, "It's your fault. Everything is your fault." Take that out of context, and that clearly seems mean. But it is entirely a joke, and is taken as such regardless of whether the thing is genuinely her fault or not. If the previous thing doesn't create change in Tom and Richard, maybe you should ask one of them about it, casually, away from the table. And then speak to Harry. See if their perceptions are the same.

some guy
2011-07-05, 01:13 PM
Thanks for the replies everyone!


Seems like there are two players on the "evil" side and two on the "good" side. Simple solution: be the third on the "good" side.

Without getting confrontational with Tom and Richard, join the fourth player in being appreciative of Harry. Don't coddle to him too much and don't compromise your neutrality as a DM, but it's okay to congratulate him on his successes and commiserate on his failures. Start by simply saying "ouch, bad luck" when he misses, and when he hits, "nicely done!". When they start verbally abusing Harry, quickly push to move the game along. If they talk him down for something that's basically a bad luck on the die, it's okay to note that as well... "dudes, give it a rest, it's just a bad roll; now, moving on, the Fire Giant swings his sword and ..."

Very soon the two other players will notice that with their behavior they are in fact in the minority, and will draw the appropriate conclusions.

Might be a good idea without making it into a huge problem.


I do the same thing in my group actually. I talk down "Boin" a lot and usually when a PC gets burned by something it will be Boin's character. It's just part of the group dynamic. It's almost a running joke. If you feel its a problem then you should talk to Harry to see if he wants you to do something about it. As for me, Boin is my best friend. It's just how our friendship works I guess.


This is a phenomena I've encountered before that I like to call 'the whipping boy'.

It's something personally beyond my understanding, but seems to be found mostly amongst a group of friends that have known each for a long time. For whatever reason its common, or just expected, to give a rough time, if not be outright rude in situations, to one member of the group. And for the most part, this seems accepted by that person. Whether its because they're the youngest, or have a history of being a bit dim, or just somehow a mechanic of how the group functions, it boggles me in that it usually works without any particular incident.

Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't check in to make sure that the third party isn't actually offended, but if it just seems to be aspect of the friendship that none of the three seem to think is wrong, maybe you should just leave them in the dysfunctional, but working, friendship.


This is, however, another thing to consider. Is it actually mean-spirited? A lot of what seems mean-spirited versus teasing can heavily depend on shared history and different backgrounds. I have a few friends (one in particular) to whom I say, in regular life "It's your fault. Everything is your fault." Take that out of context, and that clearly seems mean. But it is entirely a joke, and is taken as such regardless of whether the thing is genuinely her fault or note. If the previous thing doesn't create change in Tom and Richard, maybe you should ask one of them about it, casually, away from the table. And then speak to Harry. See if their perceptions are the same.

Yeah, it could just be their group dynamic. They've known each other for quite a while. Harry and Tom are housemates and all three of them do a particular college subject which requires them to travel a fair bit together.

Maybe Harry is okay with it. But I once was a whipping boy and I didn't like it. So I stood up/dumped those friends. But it could be different for Harry.


First try this, before doing anything else. If you bring it up to Harry first, and Harry wasn't aware of it, he will be now, and you could accidentally make the situation worse. Basically, follow player 4's lead. However, to make it not seem like favoritism, I would attempt to do this with all the players to some extent.

Yeah, the 'accidently-making-Harry-aware-of-it is a fear of me.

I think I will try to negate downtalking using Vladislav's advice. If it continues, talk with them.

Marillion
2011-07-05, 02:06 PM
This is a phenomena I've encountered before that I like to call 'the whipping boy'.

That's me :smallbiggrin:

It's just accepted that I will get the "blame", even for things I didn't do, didn't have any control over, or didn't even know about. It goes something like this:

Other guy 1: "Geez, Marillion, why'd you do that?"
Other guy 2: "Yeah, Marillion, you suck."
Me: "Gawd, Marillion, stop ruining everything." or "Yeah, me!"

I accept, understand, and even appreciate my place as whipping boy. It's all in fun, and if I seriously had a problem with it, I could speak up and they'd stop. It's just funny to all of us. :smallwink:

But, as others have said, if he's not ok with it, then it isn't ok. I'd go with Vladislav's idea, but if he genuinely doesn't seem bothered by it, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You know them better than us, though.

Sorcerer Blob
2011-07-05, 02:14 PM
I've seen the "whipping boy" both way, in good fun and more hostilely.

In my regular play group we have a guy who in 3.5 regularly played the Rogue. Anyone familiar with 3.5 knows that the Rogue is a terrible, but needed class. He played it because we needed it and he was good at it, as a result he died frequently. We would make jokes about him being the "worst rogue ever" when he rolled poorly or failed to disable a trap or, or, or. It was all in good fun and he knew it. Hell, my avatar is actually in honor of one his characters because it was a memorable character! It did get old, however, and he eventually asked us to stop because it just wasn't funny anymore. So we did, because yeah, it was old.

On the other hand, I used to play with someone when I was first starting out playing D&D who had been playing for years and years. Anytime I asked a question about anything he'd mock me or act like I was supposed to know what the hell a Bugbear was when it was my second session ever. It wasn't tolerated by anyone and after getting "the look" from everyone at the table he eventually quit.

I'd suggest talking to Harry and make sure that it's in good fun, hell, if they are friends who hang out or do stuff together frequently, it probably it. If it's not in good fun, then it's your responsibility not only as a DM, but as a friend, to say something.

Honest Tiefling
2011-07-05, 02:21 PM
This is a phenomena I've encountered before that I like to call 'the whipping boy'. -snip-

Kinda unrelated:

The whipping boy phenomena you see might be a result of how boys interact with each other. Boys tend to have larger, inclusive groups with a definite hierarchy and jockeying for position. This combined with competitive personalities/hobbies might mean that they carry over these patterns of behavior into adulthood.

Now, I am not saying that Tom and Richard are jerks, merely that the phenomena that Pink has seen is actually quite common in young male interactions that can potentially shape how these people act as they grow older.

Kinda related:

If you do not want to make Harry nervous, make it clear to players that they can speak to you if problems occur without mentioning any problems in particular.

You could also make Harry's character important to the plot in some regard. Not enough to be game unbalancing, but enough to give him moments of awesome and show that Harry is a vital part of the game.

Also try to see how Harry acts outside of the game. Maybe Tom and Richard have their time as the whipping boy in other regards...Say, by not doing the housework properly or something to do with that college project.

Pink
2011-07-05, 02:39 PM
The whipping boy phenomena you see might be a result of how boys interact with each other. Boys tend to have larger, inclusive groups with a definite hierarchy and jockeying for position. This combined with competitive personalities/hobbies might mean that they carry over these patterns of behavior into adulthood.

Now, I am not saying that Tom and Richard are jerks, merely that the phenomena that Pink has seen is actually quite common in young male interactions that can potentially shape how these people act as they grow older.

I dunno, that seems to be a generalization and stereotype of young boys. I think these tendencies form more so from the competitive activities that we put boys into at a young age. We tend to stereotype activities by gender, how many boys go into sports at a young age versus girls, and likewise, how many boys go into a more group activity like dance?

I dunno, personally I was never really was part of a pack of boys, if anything I Hung out with the girls more at a younger age.

If anything, I think I've observed this more often among groups of friends older than me, in their thirties or more, than I can recall seeing routinely with kids.

Honest Tiefling
2011-07-05, 07:00 PM
I did not mean to imply that it is an absolute, just a general trend amongst young boys of Westren cultures. There are plenty of exceptions to these rules, but they have been observed a lot. It is common, but not what happens 100% of the time by any stretch of the imagination. I myself, am not the manliest of men, so I understand that this may not have been the case for yourself when growing up.

And I also did not say what was the cause of this. I do not disagree that society and the expectations of media, peers and parents influence what children of both genders do.

However, I don't think the idea of dance and sports are great examples to disprove this pattern. The reason being that sports and dance are typically regulated heavily by adults, which can alter patterns of socialization, and children are probably smart enough to tone down certain behavior in front of the grown ups.

Seb Wiers
2011-07-05, 09:25 PM
This is a phenomena I've encountered before that I like to call 'the whipping boy'.

Huh. I always thought of it as 'the douche-bags.'
If its not obvious, I've got a pretty negative reaction to this kind of behavior. When younger, I got in several fights because I wouldn't be the target. Having grown, I'm easily able to deflect it (from myself), but still prefer to avoid any company where it turns up.

And yeah, it seems a matter of establishing social order- which is not in itself a bad thing (it just is). Girls / women do the same thing through other methods (e.g. remarks about appearance). But there times for it, and the PRG table really isn't one of those times, since its not relevant to the game. (If you were playing a competitive game, on the other hand...)

I think an effective counter is just to pre-empt / oppose the comments with comments of your own. If you point out how AWESOME a power strike hit is before anybody can prattle out a "dude, that was SOOOO luck", they'll likely keep the belittling comments to themselves.

DabblerWizard
2011-07-06, 10:36 PM
Here's another idea Some Guy.

You could easily talk to Tom and Richard about their put downs without getting Harry involved.

You said the following:
.... I just feel uncomfortable when it happens....

Even if Harry is putting up with their behavior, and says he doesn't mind... It's bothering you.

You could totally say something like, "when you guys say things like X, I'm uncomfortable, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped".

The two guys might defend themselves, or say "but Harry doesn't mind"... but that doesn't matter. All players should give each other enough respect to stop behaviors that bother their friends, and fellow gamers / players.

Starwulf
2011-07-06, 11:34 PM
This is a phenomena I've encountered before that I like to call 'the whipping boy'.

It's something personally beyond my understanding, but seems to be found mostly amongst a group of friends that have known each for a long time. For whatever reason its common, or just expected, to give a rough time, if not be outright rude in situations, to one member of the group. And for the most part, this seems accepted by that person. Whether its because they're the youngest, or have a history of being a bit dim, or just somehow a mechanic of how the group functions, it boggles me in that it usually works without any particular incident.

Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't check in to make sure that the third party isn't actually offended, but if it just seems to be aspect of the friendship that none of the three seem to think is wrong, maybe you should just leave them in the dysfunctional, but working, friendship.

Hehe, I used to be the "whipping boy" in my group of friends in RL, not because I was a "bit dim" or "the youngest", it really was just how our group functioned. Eventually though, my tongue became sharper and my wit quicker, and I became so efficient in retaliating back, that now we all serve the position as whipping boy at least once or twice in any get together ^^. It's just one of those things that a really close group of friends will do sometimes. We like to pick on each other, sometimes to the point of obnoxiousness, but it's all in good fun and we all realize that.

Reading the OP's story, I'd say there is a VERY good possibility of his group being similar to my own, and Harry is quite used to it by now, I doubt it even really bothers him. Before bringing it to the entire group and causing some potential embarassment(as there is a good chance that even Harry will laugh at you for trying to protect him), talk to Harry first and find out his view of the situation. Maybe if he is aware of it, and it doesn't bother him, you can still encourage him to strike back. It's much more fun to make EVERYONE the "whipping boy", you get a much more varied stream of insults, instead of the same old stuff you use to insult just one person.

Lichdom
2011-07-07, 01:47 AM
Seems like there are two players on the "evil" side and two on the "good" side. Simple solution: be the third on the "good" side.

Without getting confrontational with Tom and Richard, join the fourth player in being appreciative of Harry. Don't coddle to him too much and don't compromise your neutrality as a DM, but it's okay to congratulate him on his successes and commiserate on his failures. Start by simply saying "ouch, bad luck" when he misses, and when he hits, "nicely done!". When they start verbally abusing Harry, quickly push to move the game along. If they talk him down for something that's basically a bad luck on the die, it's okay to note that as well... "dudes, give it a rest, it's just a bad roll; now, moving on, the Fire Giant swings his sword and ..."

Very soon the two other players will notice that with their behavior they are in fact in the minority, and will draw the appropriate conclusions.

Poetry my friend. Listen to this guy.

DabblerWizard
2011-07-07, 10:53 AM
I can remember this kind of "whipping boy" phenomenon when I was in high school, and frankly, I hated it when it happened to me, and I hated it when it happened to my friends. Just because I can grow a sharper tongue doesn't mean anyone should have to put up with this crap.

I know I put up with this behavior because I needed to be friends with folks, and I thought that I had to put up with it, or else I'd be friendless.

I also saw a bit of it in college, but for the most part people finally realized that being bastards to their friends was unacceptable.

Today, as an adult, if I saw "whipping boy" done by anyone I interact with, I'd tell them off, or stop interacting with them. People deserve better than that folks.

Starwulf
2011-07-07, 11:40 AM
I can remember this kind of "whipping boy" phenomenon when I was in high school, and frankly, I hated it when it happened to me, and I hated it when it happened to my friends. Just because I can grow a sharper tongue doesn't mean anyone should have to put up with this crap.

I know I put up with this behavior because I needed to be friends with folks, and I thought that I had to put up with it, or else I'd be friendless.

I also saw a bit of it in college, but for the most part people finally realized that being bastards to their friends was unacceptable.

Today, as an adult, if I saw "whipping boy" done by anyone I interact with, I'd tell them off, or stop interacting with them. People deserve better than that folks.

A bit harsh imo. You're experience may have been different because you had a less thick skin, or perhaps you're bond with the people you called your friends(and from your description, I'd say they weren't much of one, ie: "I needed to be friends with folks"). On the other hand, in some groups, the bond is extraordinarily close, like with me and my group, and we do it as a sign of affection, and that is not even a hint of exaggeration. It's when my friends STOP making each other whipping boys, that we know something is seriously wrong in their lives. It's so bred into us that that is literally the only time we stop, when something horrible has gone wrong. I wouldn't give up the joy of being and making people in our group the whipping boy for anything.

edit: Please note that we have been doing the whipping boy thing since highschool, and we are all either 30, or about to turn 30 now. Just for a frame of reference. I see a lot of people say it's either highschool behaivor, or older groups, but we did it from a young age and still do.

Frozen_Feet
2011-07-07, 01:29 PM
This is a phenomena I've encountered before that I like to call 'the whipping boy'.


Personally, I call it "Omega". Almost all pack animals, humans included, tend to create a hierarchy between themselves, and someone will always suffer the misfortune of becoming the group clown.

As long as Harry doesn't mind and Tom and Richard stay relatively civil, things are okay. If you think Harry is an okay chap, siding with him is the best way to go.

DabblerWizard
2011-07-07, 02:06 PM
I've always found the "thick skin" justification rather demeaning. It basically says that you have to accept what's being done to you, or something's wrong with you. Talk about blaming the victim.

I understand that friends can find reasons to justify this behavior with each other. However, I still think it hurts people, even if it's paradoxically a kind of bonding. Friends can bond in all sorts of positive ways, that have nothing to do with being rude, condescending, demeaning, or harmful.

Beyond being reciprocally rude with friends, the real problem is that this kind of justification is used by bullies and perpetrators and worse.

Just to be clear Starwulf, my point about bullies isn't intended to apply to you or your friends. My only point referring to your post is that we disagree on the ways we like to bond with friends.

kyoryu
2011-07-07, 02:24 PM
It's making you uncomfortable, regardless of what Harry feels about it. It's also making another player uncomfortable.

You have the right to set standards of behavior at your table. While a DM may be one of many, in a lot of ways he's the host.

Personally, rather than beating around the bush, I'd just tell them straight out, "I've noticed this. I do not care for this type of behavior. You're all welcome, and I enjoy gaming with you - but this particular behavior is not welcome."

One of the keys to doing this is making sure they're aware that *they* are welcome (and even play that up a bit if necessary), but that the *behavior* is unwelcome. Even talking up their ability to control their behavior "I feel okay to talk to you about this honestly, because I respect your abilities to be mature and reasonable" can help.

Starwulf
2011-07-07, 03:25 PM
I've always found the "thick skin" justification rather demeaning. It basically says that you have to accept what's being done to you, or something's wrong with you. Talk about blaming the victim.

I understand that friends can find reasons to justify this behavior with each other. However, I still think it hurts people, even if it's paradoxically a kind of bonding. Friends can bond in all sorts of positive ways, that have nothing to do with being rude, condescending, demeaning, or harmful.

Beyond being reciprocally rude with friends, the real problem is that this kind of justification is used by bullies and perpetrators and worse.

Just to be clear Starwulf, my point about bullies isn't intended to apply to you or your friends. My only point referring to your post is that we disagree on the ways we like to bond with friends.

That's fine, just so long as you realize that people do bond in different ways, and that our way isn't rude, isn't demeaning, condescending, or harmful to any of us in any sort of way. It's literally an expression of our affection for each other(besides the fact that, unlike most groups of guy friends, we never hesitate to say the words "Love ya bro" "yeah, love you to man"). I do realize though, that not all groups share this type of bonds, but I do believe such may be the case with the OPs group, just based on the fact that Harry has shown absolutely no inclination towards asking them to stop or shown any signs of being upset over it. It's pretty hard to be oblivious to stuff like that, so either he's seething inside(always a possibility) and serene on the out, or it's just their norm and he's fine with it ^^.

I'm sorry that you ended up being the whipping boy of your group, and that it wasn't a "good" kind of whipping boy. That situation always sucks for the person on the receiving end, and you're right, it isn't healthy in any sort of way, and it's good that you removed yourself from that situation. Hopefully you've long since moved on and found a better group of friends :)