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View Full Version : Blind Firebender in the party... How to help him? [pathfinder/d20 A:tlA]



Vallum
2011-07-06, 12:36 PM
So, I have taken up the privilege of being able to GM a pathfinder version of the d20 Avatar rules I found on GitP, (thanks guys!).

Campaign
I've set it to take place 400 years before Aang defeated the firelord, so still many years before many of the known Avatars in the show, before firebenders wanted to take over the world... and, most importantly, before most canon events happen so I can GM and not screw up the world, (at least, not too badly and can be fix'd if anything goes wrong), and still have many of the main foundations that make the setting so cool, (benders, weird monsters, and eastern overtones).

The premises of this campaign is having the spirit world very close to the material world. People commune with the spirits regularly, and, thus, it is more likely, (still rare), to see spirits, (the PC's are some of the few that can).

I've set up that the Earth Kingdom to be split into two countries, right now just calling them the Northern Earth Kingdom, (Gold), and the Southern Earth Kingdom, (Green). Each side, though separated, get along enough to stop fighting and co-exist... Until events of the Spirit world start to bombard both sides of the country, Spirits entering the Material world and start to cause havoc. Now both countries are blaming each other for the events, and will be taking up arms with a great war on the horizon.

note: I do not know the history of that far back. I have yet to find information to tell me otherwise, but it still remains that this mock history of mine might conflict with canon timeline and events. If so, please inform me and, more importantly, how I can fit my campaign into it without conflicting to 'real' timeline.


So far, The party consists of a waterbender, airbender, earthbender, firebender, and a monk.

Aside from the monk, the party is doing fantastic, the first basic encounter went off without a hitch. Even the player who can't optimize worth poodle can be effective with this system. It was stupid proof and balanced, and it wasn't 4ed edition!* :smallbiggrin:

Except for two members. I know what I can do to help the monk, (making a PrC, and updating an old PrC, should bring him up to a power level of 'not suck and feel worse around a bunch of tier 2 classes'). My problem...

The Firebender decided he wanted to be blind, and I really have no way to really deal with this. I could blatantly rip off the Oracle, give him a PrC that can progress him into being a functioning member of the party, call it thermal vision, and call it a day... But I don't know when he should be able to take this PrC, prerequisites he needs to be able to take it... But most importantly, I don't want the player to feel worthless for making a hard decision, especially with a new player coming into the party that wants to be a firebender that is not blind and will be perfectly fine. I'm afraid of having the blind bender player loose interest and being 1-up'd by the normal firebender.

TL;DR - Blind firebender in bending party, new player about to play a firebender and I don't want the blind one feeling 1-up'd. How do I make a good, short PrC for the PC to function in the party by giving him thermal/IR vision? How do I balance it? What else should he gain from the PrC?

*Note: I don't mind 4ed, the party was burnt out on it before I joined

John Cribati
2011-07-06, 12:43 PM
Thermal vision. Sort of like Darkvision, but he can only "see" light from non-plant living creatures.

Vallum
2011-07-06, 03:16 PM
Should it be a 3 level PrC, or is that too short? Should it be able to be taken before level 5, or meet the prerequisites by 5th level like most PrCs are set?

Cieyrin
2011-07-07, 08:00 AM
Before jumping into PrCs, you may want to consider this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19906846/The_Blind_PCs_Association). It provides some fairly sound guidance on how to handle a naturally blind character.

Other things to consider would be Keen-Eared Scout (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Keen-Eared_Scout) and getting access to Listening Lorecall (SpC). He'd also be wise to consider the PF Blind-Fight chain, which became one in the Advanced Player's Guide.

Just my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

gkathellar
2011-07-07, 10:03 AM
Mechanically, you should handle it the way Avatar D20 handles Toph's tremorsense, since this is pretty much the same thing. If that's just handled by rules exceptions or pure fluff ... well, yeah, rules exception and pure fluff away. (Unless your player wants a prestige class or some feats, in which case I encourage you to have them stat some up for your approval.)

Fluff-wise, you might also want to think about the connections between firebending and breath in the Avatar universe. Breath is one of the earliest meaning of the word Qi, so he may simply feel out the physical and metaphysical "breath" of people and objects the same way he feels out his own when he firebends.

Adumbration
2011-07-07, 10:13 AM
Perhaps a PrC that simultaneously gives you the ability to feel the heat others exude, giving a rough estimate of whereabouts to aim Firebending (combined with a lot of ranks in Listen for recognition) and a credible boost to his raw power to compensate for the lack of finesse?

Cieyrin
2011-07-07, 10:29 AM
Perhaps a PrC that simultaneously gives you the ability to feel the heat others exude, giving a rough estimate of whereabouts to aim Firebending (combined with a lot of ranks in Listen for recognition) and a credible boost to his raw power to compensate for the lack of finesse?

Area attacks means never making a miss chance roll. :smallwink:

Vallum
2011-07-07, 08:26 PM
Mechanically, you should handle it the way Avatar D20 handles Toph's tremorsense, since this is pretty much the same thing. If that's just handled by rules exceptions or pure fluff ... well, yeah, rules exception and pure fluff away. (Unless your player wants a prestige class or some feats, in which case I encourage you to have them stat some up for your approval.)

Fluff-wise, you might also want to think about the connections between firebending and breath in the Avatar universe. Breath is one of the earliest meaning of the word Qi, so he may simply feel out the physical and metaphysical "breath" of people and objects the same way he feels out his own when he firebends.

Yeeeeessssss! I needed some good fluff for this. Awesome.

I wanted a PrC because everyone in my group is getting a custom PrC, ( Waterbender is going to get an enhanced healing PrC, Monk getting a PrC to boot his stunning fist and 'disable' bending, (aka wanting to be like Ty Lee), Earthbender probably wont get a PrC but a custom seed, (earth torpedo)... But I have nothing for the Airbender at the moment, and now need to work on the Firebending stuff... If I don't give him a PrC to see while blind, I'll give him access to, or maybe he'll create, the order of the white lotus)

Ninjadeadbeard
2011-07-07, 11:19 PM
Perhaps a PrC that simultaneously gives you the ability to feel the heat others exude, giving a rough estimate of whereabouts to aim Firebending (combined with a lot of ranks in Listen for recognition) and a credible boost to his raw power to compensate for the lack of finesse?

What lack of finesse? If he can "see" heat or breath or somesuch, then wouldn't the firebender be hyper-accurate? He could "see" benders through thin walls. Good suggestion with the Listen Check idea, but I think the Firebender would have to lose his Spot Checks as well.


I wanted a PrC because everyone in my group is getting a custom PrC, ( Waterbender is going to get an enhanced healing PrC, Monk getting a PrC to boot his stunning fist and 'disable' bending, (aka wanting to be like Ty Lee), Earthbender probably wont get a PrC but a custom seed, (earth torpedo)... But I have nothing for the Airbender at the moment, and now need to work on the Firebending stuff... If I don't give him a PrC to see while blind, I'll give him access to, or maybe he'll create, the order of the white lotus)

Since Airbenders are supposed to be Jack-of-all-trades-Master-of-none, I would think a PrC would be hard to pin down. You might have to come up with several, or one that lacks a real focus.

As for the Firebender PrC, was the Firebender born blind? If so, then use the above mentioned methods to give him functionality prior to this. The PrC could just serve to make him an even better blind fighter or what-have-you. If he was blinded by something else (Agni Kai, illness, etc) then just decide that he can take a PrC that brings him up to speed with the rest of the party right off the bat. If you start the party at level 10, then the prerequisite is "Must be Level 10".

Hope that helps.

Cieyrin
2011-07-08, 03:06 PM
What lack of finesse? If he can "see" heat or breath or somesuch, then wouldn't the firebender be hyper-accurate? He could "see" benders through thin walls. Good suggestion with the Listen Check idea, but I think the Firebender would have to lose his Spot Checks as well.

PF only has Perception, so he should auto-fail sight-based Perception checks.


Since Airbenders are supposed to be Jack-of-all-trades-Master-of-none, I would think a PrC would be hard to pin down. You might have to come up with several, or one that lacks a real focus.

As for the Firebender PrC, was the Firebender born blind? If so, then use the above mentioned methods to give him functionality prior to this. The PrC could just serve to make him an even better blind fighter or what-have-you. If he was blinded by something else (Agni Kai, illness, etc) then just decide that he can take a PrC that brings him up to speed with the rest of the party right off the bat. If you start the party at level 10, then the prerequisite is "Must be Level 10".

Hope that helps.

I agree, he needs help to function now. It's good fluff, certainly, to have him be blind but I don't think the best solution to make him functional is a PrC, as it seems forced upon him so that he can meet up with the DM's expected level of power across the party. This is why I suggested the Blind PC's Association and the Blind PC package, which attempts to mechanically define how a long time or born blind person would function and adapted to their situation. If you want a PrC to make him more kick-ass later, that can work, but if he can manage to succeed despite his handicaps, that just makes him the more amazing and memorable in the long term and he should have the chance to do so, not be immediately given a crutch to hobble around with. He chose to be blind for the challenge and bad assery, let him do it (at least, so I assume).

gkathellar
2011-07-09, 03:18 PM
Why not have the Firebender's PrC give him access to Airbender-ish abilities, or breath abilities of some kind? Similar to how Iroh adapted Waterbender skills for his own discipline (or how he can breathe fire, in the latter case).

Mephibosheth
2011-07-09, 05:34 PM
How 'bout a compromise solution. Grant him some sort of limited heat-sense adaptation now to make sure he can function in the party well enough until the time comes to take the PrC. Then, when the time comes, base the PrC around what Aang and Zuko realize in The Firebending Masters (episode 3.13 (http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/transcripts.php?ep=313), near the end); that firebending is about energy and life rather than anger, emotion, or destruction. This, combined with the "everything's connected" idea the Gaang learned from Hue in the Foggy Swamp (The Swamp, episode 2.04), would justify a PrC based around sensing and following flows of energy. This type of sense would be more accurate than the basic heat vision.

Vallum
2011-07-19, 11:46 PM
Long story short, I made a great PrC along the same lines as Mephibosheth thought of..

But he complained about losing 1 bending level through the 3 level PrC. So, I'm just leaving it to what Cieyrin suggested, and with a seed coming along to allow him to ignore a certain percentage of mischance, he has no reason to complain. I'm just disappointed on how immature and ungrateful he was about all of this.

But, I am wondering about how to handle giving the Airbender on giving her an animal companion? I think their was a feat that worked like leadership's cohort, except you get an animal companion-esc creature. I forgot where that was...

AtlanteanTroll
2011-07-19, 11:50 PM
Why not just let him sense body heat through his bending? It's about as gimmicky as Toff.

Dryad
2011-07-20, 12:19 AM
Ehm... So you are forced to jump through hoops because your player wants to be blind?
Her choice, her responsibility. Nothing wrong with wanting to play a blind character. Blind Fight is handy, getting Blind Sight through an item or somesuch is handy at later levels, but to be honest: If they want to play a blind character, then I think you should let them. And the main thing about being blind is that you cannot see. Seems a bit strange to me that you're trying to come up with a way that allows them to be blind, yet circumvent the very condition of not being able to see.

My philosophy on player's choices: Always allow them to do it.
If someone would want to play a character without arms, would you allow them to hold a greatsword in their mouth? Would you allow a character without legs the option to levitate? Would you allow a dumb character telepathy?

They want to be blind. Let them.

Vallum
2011-07-20, 01:13 AM
Seems a bit strange to me that you're trying to come up with a way that allows them to be blind, yet circumvent the very condition of not being able to see.

Because that's how running a party works. When some PCs come up with ideas that seem cool at the time, they forget how its going to work in a group setting. Its up to the GM to fix it, or have the game restart/die.

Having the original idea before posting this was going to be as harsh as you mentioned. The firebender can't see, so he can't throw fire without the possibility of hurting someone that wasn't the intended victim, or completely missing and even causing some collateral damage because of it. This is dynamic, and difficult obstacles of overcoming, which is great to read about in a story, or watch in a movie.

It sucks hard in a table top RPG group game, though. When you have one person in your party that can't function with everyone, it pulls the party back. Why would the party adventure with this character? Why would this character adventure?
Answer: There is no reason. The party would leave this person behind in all other cases, if it were not for out of game knowledge of knowing it's a friend's character.

Parties fall apart when the only reason for having someone in your party is because the character is run by someone irl. When this happens, and the problem character in question soon finds one self doing less and less in game, unable to do anything productive for the party. Boredom takes its toll, ranging from going to do something else, distracting players, falling asleep, est.

You play games to , well... Play
Yes, sometimes games can get boring for some of the players. It happens, its a tabletop rpg. But it shouldn't be boring only because the character you play is useless and can't do anything.
Especially in a system biased off a show where a main cast member had the same condition and was still able to function with non-disabled party members well enough to not be a liability.

I found a balanced option to enable this, and the character will be powerful and keep up with the party. More importantly, its now balanced in a way where being blind is a disability, but will not stop the character to stop functioning with everyone else. Also, it won't be overpowered to the point where every PC will gouge their eyes out for outstanding benefits that overpower a normal, seeing character.

Dryad
2011-07-20, 01:21 AM
If the party decides to leave their member, then why on earth shouldn't they?
Why should you have to fix something they create?


It sucks hard in a table top RPG group game, though. When you have one person in your party that can't function with everyone, it pulls the party back. Why would the party adventure with this character? Why would this character adventure?
Answer: There is no reason. The party would leave this person behind in all other cases, if it were not for out of game knowledge of knowing it's a friend's character.


Seems to me that this is the best possible reason for that single person who WANTS to play a non-fuctional character to re-roll. She got what she wanted: A non-functional character. She chose that. She pays the price for it.

It should teach players to be more careful with what they choose, and not let coolness factor get in the way of actual roleplay. A blind character would have no reason to be in a fight. A blind character would have no incentive to go adventuring. And a blind character would, indeed, mostly be a hindrance to your group.

That character in the anime who has that same condition... Why would your player want to copy that? There's two problems with it, see. Problem one: it's unoriginal to take an already existing character concept. Problem two: The already existing character is not your average lvl 1 character, now is she?

Then again: I gladly let my players' characters die if it's for the good of immersion. They make a decision; it's their responsibility. Saving them when they make stupid choices only means that they stop taking the story seriously, and that means that they stop taking the roleplay seriously.

Vallum
2011-07-20, 01:47 AM
Why would your player want to copy that? There's two problems with it, see. Problem one: it's unoriginal to take an already existing character concept. Problem two: The already existing character is not your average lvl 1 character, now is she?

Because its fun? Because when you watch Zatochi, you think its pretty cool. The story makes sense when explained how he, a blind person ina non-magical setting, can not only fight, but fight really well. its believable enough for the audience to keep watching, to immerse themselves with the character. Being blind didn't break the 4th wall, its was a characteristic that defined the character.

Roleplaying is a great way of telling a story, and I don't see why wanting to be such a fantastic character in a fantasy setting is trying to break the roleplaying atmosphere, and not a direct attack on my game by, 'not being serious.'

And we all derive inspiration from something. Nothing is original.
For example: someone decided that making a basic shape of a sword was a good idea, does that make all other swords just copies? Is Anduril just a cheep knock-off of Excalibur because they are both longswords/bastard swords? No. They are not.
Neither is wanting to be a human character because the last human character you saw was pretty cool. Gandhi and Alexander the Great are very, very original, despite them being both the same species.

I hardly find it fair to play them off as unoriginal because the PC wants to play a blind character because they thought the blind character from the original series was cool. Not their fault for being blunt about what they are ripping off from, and neither will it detach from the fact that the character can still be, and so far has been, very original.

gkathellar
2011-07-20, 05:59 AM
Ehm... So you are forced to jump through hoops because your player wants to be blind?
Her choice, her responsibility. Nothing wrong with wanting to play a blind character. Blind Fight is handy, getting Blind Sight through an item or somesuch is handy at later levels, but to be honest: If they want to play a blind character, then I think you should let them. And the main thing about being blind is that you cannot see. Seems a bit strange to me that you're trying to come up with a way that allows them to be blind, yet circumvent the very condition of not being able to see.

... except that there's a long history of blind heroes in martial arts cinema and works inspired by such? Avatar canonically has a character who can see even though she's blind. Disability superpowers are practically standard there.


My philosophy on player's choices: Always allow them to do it.
If someone would want to play a character without arms, would you allow them to hold a greatsword in their mouth? Would you allow a character without legs the option to levitate? Would you allow a dumb character telepathy?

They want to be blind. Let them.

There was this wonderful little argument on the Paizo boards some time ago over roughly the same question: PF's version of Vow of Poverty gave almost no benefit at all, really one of the worst options ever implemented, and people were complaining about it. Sean K. Reynolds's answer to this was, "If they want to roleplay a character with a Vow of Poverty, their should be consequences! That's what roleplaying is, right?"

Except it's not, and this is really edging up nice and close to the Stormwind Fallacy. Sure, if they want to play a blind character and suffer penalties for it, that's great. But most of the time, enforcing mechanical penalties on a character concept smacks of unfairness, and of penalizing players for wanting to do something interesting. And classic VoP is really an excellent example.

One of the key reasons people are attracted to VoP is because it's cool to walk the earth like Caine from Kung Fu. But without mechanical support for that? Well, your character sucks, and you can't reliably compete or contribute to the game as you reach higher levels, and suddenly what you thought was cool and fun is just a failure of a character. Nobody likes to lose, and people especially don't like to lose for doing things they think are fun. And that's why VoP, for all its flaws, is a good thing.

Obviously finding ways to make a mechanically viable character with a cool disability should be a cooperative exercise between the DM and the player. In a straight Dark Ages fantasy setting, I would tell the player flatly that they probably shouldn't play a one-armed swordsman. But in a more Renaissance or Eastern-inspired setting? Yeah, sure, it's easy enough to reskin the shield mechanics or TWF so that they can stat up a viable Fang Kang derivative — and most importantly, so that they can have fun playing it. A blind character is no different in a setting where that kind of thing is appropriate.

As for your counter-examples, I'm going to call false equivalency on them, mostly because they're ridiculous and uninteresting. A wheelchair-bound aikido master? Cool, and therefore not worth penalizing. A levitating legless guy? Ridiculous, and therefore worth hitting the player over.*

*Although actually, you should look into an Osamu Tezuka comic called Dororo, which has to be the best and the most extreme case of disability superpowers making a cool character.

Dryad
2011-07-20, 08:45 AM
Zatoichi was something quite different, but I get the gist. Blind swordsmanship is very possible; even relatively easy. It in no way solves the problems of blindness in a way similar to blindsense or blindsight. If anything, Zatoichi's form was merely an improvement to the Blind Fight feat, coupled possible with Uncanny Dodge and high spot and listen skills. (Being blind doesn't mean you can't make spot checks. Spot checks are basically for noticing details. While being blind is a hindrance, since everything is basically invisible, spot checks are still allowed.)
Zatoichi was a case of a great swordsman despite his blindness; not because of it. He's admirable because he overcame the odds against him, because he was very skilled. This is in no way comparable to giving people superpowers that nullify their entire condition, and even give a pretty good advantage. Zatoichi didn't get any advantage for being blind. He simply made up for it by sheer, and extremely impressive, skill.

As for your example: A wheelchair bound Aikido master is one thing. It is doable. The loss of mobility is heavy, but still doable. However, giving magical 'sight' to a blind character is much the same as giving levitation to a legless character.
Levitation: The character doesn't suffer from terrain obstacles.
Magical 'sight:' The character cannot be normally blinded, has 360 degree 'vision,' is pretty much immune to invisibility effects, can 'see' corporeal creatures, and pretty much doesn't suffer from anything that hampers conventional sight. Magical 'sight' is not obstructed by darkness, either, and even a deeper darkness spell has no effect. Certain illusions will also have no effect at all, since the character can't see them (much like invisibility; the character cannot see that an opponent is invisible).

gkathellar
2011-07-20, 11:27 AM
(Being blind doesn't mean you can't make spot checks. Spot checks are basically for noticing details. While being blind is a hindrance, since everything is basically invisible, spot checks are still allowed.)

Uh. What. No. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded)

Dryad
2011-07-20, 08:43 PM
Ingrained houserules. That's what you get. My bad.

Cieyrin
2011-07-20, 08:53 PM
On the one hand, players shouldn't make characters that detract from the fun of the group. Crippling yourself only drags the group down and makes things difficult for the group to function.

On the other hand, some players want a challenge with their characters and if they can pull off an awesome, effective character despite a supposedly crippling flaw, it becomes memorable and awesome. They can be fun to play and inspire other players to think in more than just how to deal the most damage or worry about what is the most optimal method.

In this case, being permanently blind can go either way. Before going ahead with it, you should always talk to the players and DM about how viable such a situation can be. Not every group wants to deal with the problems that come up. Remember, Toph's blindness wasn't completely negated and reared its ugly head often, especially when dealing with flying enemies, which her tremorsense can't detect.

If an equitable solution to the perceived problem can't be reached, perhaps it's time to shelve the character for a different campaign with different resources that may make it more viable and pursue a different concept. I know, it's a bummer to not get what you want but sometimes you have to put your foot down as DM and say that you can't make it work. DMs and players should meet half-way when it comes to characters and the game in general, as you're mutually trying to have fun. If a concept is not making it fun for someone in the group on either side of the DM screen, you gotta say something, not beat about the bush about it.

Incidentally, could you post the PrC you made or, if you have already, link it here? Perhaps the collective forum can help hammer out a solution that both you, as the DM, and your player can agree to.

Vallum
2011-07-20, 09:41 PM
I already said that I'm having the PC use the Blind PCs Association starting package, (he didn't like the PrC because he lost a bending level over 3 levels).

With the starting package and a firebending seed that will help him ignore mischance, he'll be fine. He can't get it until level 5, so he's sucking it up until then, but he won't suck once he gets it, and still has to deal with the whole 'blind person in blind world without tremorsense' thing.

But, here is the PrC. Its modified for monk now, (just made it for the monk in our party instead who wanted to focus on stunning fist, but the basics are still there, replace monk stuff with bender and chi sight as just granting the earthbending seed of tremoresense, but for everyone... I'll try to dig up the original bending one later).

((Also, big note, this is for Pathfinder, where the progression for PrCs work differently))
((And yes, its powerful because I'm having a monk in a whole tier 2 party... he needs a power boost to keep up with everyone, and I find that this will help))
((Also, brought back concentration as a skill))
-----------------

Chi Master

~ Chi is an active principle forming part of any living thing. Breath is one of the earliest meaning of the word chi, with focus on breathing exercises to help stimulate and control your body's chi. However, a chi master takes this to another level, and have learned to feel out the physical and metaphysical "breath" of people and objects, and able to push his chi control to heightened levels.
The first Chi Master was a Firebending master, developing the Firebender's core principles of bending is breath control.

Prerequisites: Perception 5 ranks, Stunning fist feat, Awareness feat, 5th level monk

Special: Must have worked with another Chi master for a week

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+1|Monk Level, Chi Pool, Chi Strike

2nd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+2|Chi Sight, Chi Focus

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+2|Stop Chi, Extra Chi [/table]

Skills (4+Int): Acrobatics, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Perception, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Swim

HD: d6

Class features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Chi Masters gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Monk Level: A Chi master Stacks his levels in Chi Master with his Monk levels only the amount of Ki points a monk has and unarmed strike damage. The Monk gains no other benefits.

Chi Pool (1st): the levels in Chi master stack with Monk only for determining how many Ki points the Chi master has, and gains an additional 2 Ki points.

Chi Strike (1st): By spending a Ki point, a Chi master may utilize his Chi more effectively in a melee attack. A Chi master gains a +1 to hit a target with an unarmed strike, and may hit incorporeal opponents as though the unarmed strike had the ghost touch property. This bonus does not stack with itself past your levels in Chi Master, (ie you cannot use this multiple times to gain a greater attack bonus beyond your total level in Chi master, but may use it multiple times for separate attacks if you make multiple attacks in a round, or for attacks of opportunity)

Chi Sight (2nd): A Chi master may use a ki point to gain Blindsense of 30 feet for one round.

Chi Focus (2nd): The Chi master has brought greater focus to himself, able to clear his mind and think clearly with proper breathing techniques and utilizing Chi. A Chi master gains a +2 on any intelligence based check or concentration check he/she makes by spending a ki point. This bonus does not stack for the same check.

Stop Chi (3rd): When a Chi master uses a stunning fist attempt, the Chi master may spend a number of ki points equal to half his HD, (rounded down) + his Wisdom modifier when using stunning fist. For every point spent, the DC of the Stunning Fist save increases on a 1:1 ratio.

Extra Chi (3rd): The Chi master gains an additional 4 points, (effectively +6 from this class, with the addition of the total Chi master level stacking with Monk levels for determining the number of Ki points a monk has)

Dryad
2011-07-20, 09:57 PM
Lower HD, low BaB, low saves, no increase in skills, less class skills, no increase in Flurry, a few nifty abilities that are in no way to be called powerful...
Really; the only 'powerful' thing this class brings is +6 Ki points.

What I mean to say is: The class is not near as powerful as you implied, and I would probably even go as far as to say it is weaker than actual monk levels.
That's not to say it's a bad prestige class in itself. It's merely a weak one, so I don't think it would suit your purposes (as making the monk more powerful).

I do want to stress, though, that there is nothing actually wrong about it. It's a good prestige class, and the heavier reliance on Ki points is, if you ask me, very flavourful and elegant.

Vallum
2011-07-20, 10:17 PM
Lower HD, low BaB, low saves, no increase in skills, less class skills, no increase in Flurry, a few nifty abilities that are in no way to be called powerful...
Really; the only 'powerful' thing this class brings is +6 Ki points.

What I mean to say is: The class is not near as powerful as you implied, and I would probably even go as far as to say it is weaker than actual monk levels.
That's not to say it's a bad prestige class in itself. It's merely a weak one, so I don't think it would suit your purposes (as making the monk more powerful).

So more then half your HD to Stunning fist isn't enough to stun most enemies you come across, especially against benders, where half of them don't have a good fort save? a DC, for a monk 7/Chi master 3 with a 16 wisdom, for his stunning fist can be up to 26, (dc = 10 + 1/2 level +wisdom modifier, then add 8 ki points for the other half level + wisdom modifier, so really, its dc = 10 + level + widsdom mod twice). The average monster, (not humans, monsters), in pathfinder at this level is +13.
Now, the majority of this setting is human benders, who don't have a good fort save, (earthbender's I think have a good fort save, but no one else iirc), meaning they'd be lucky to have a save that high, (the average is 10 for a well built fighter, lower for a bender... making that kind of save is hard).
Also, avatar: the last airbender game. So no fancy-shmancy magic items either to boost that.

And again, this was going to originally be for the bending classes, and 2/3 bending gain, where they lose nothing but 1 level, and basically able to see with some other abilities for fluff reasons.

Dryad
2011-07-21, 10:41 AM
Stunning Fist is over-appreciated and highly circumstantial. I agree that your 'fix' makes it far more useful than it currently is against solo enemies, but in order to make it that much more useful, a large number of ki points have to be invested all in one go, instantly draining a ki pool for an effect that can still miss.
Still; it only stuns for a single round, so any encounter with multiple enemies (which should be most, I gather) would render this very powerful ability less than highly impressive.

Stunning Fist is not useful in a fight with multiple opponents. It's a standard action for a single stun, which is in no way fatal or lethal unless the target is then focussed down. Raw damage is often simply better. However, in a solo encounter, Stunning Fist could take the bite off, but is too easy to save against. This is fixed by your fix, but since solo encounters are too easily focussed as it is, your fix won't place stunning fist on the map. It's ironic, since Stunning Fist is supposed to be a monk's iconic ability, but personally: In a great many occasions, even grapple is better.

Your fix does fix the Stunning Fist dc, which is good, but drains the Ki-pool something dreadful, which is bad. There's also the conversion to keep in mind. Saves are RNG, so to play it safe, you would invest a lot of ki-points into a single strike against which the target might fail the save anyway, depending on her roll. Meaning that most of the points you invest in a stunning fist are actually spent in excess; in hindsight, every point spent above the number totalled by the save roll is thrown away.
Of course; that is a matter of preference. But Ki points are a static thing, while saves are a random given.

Absol197
2011-07-25, 11:41 PM
You said you found the system here in the Playground; may I ask where you found it?

Also, as others have said, a sort of thermal sense would make perfect sense for a blind firebender. If you could provide the system for me to look over, I could probably whip you up a prestige class for that (I'm working on my own version of a Pathfinder Avatar system, myself :smallsmile:)

Also, as for the debate going on, normally I would agree that a DM should strongly consider a disability as severe as blindness in a character, because it can cause so many problems. However, as has beed said before, the Avatar universe already has a main character who is blind, and all the more awesome (and powerful) for it. In this case, it makes perfect sense.

gkathellar
2011-07-26, 04:53 AM
Google-fu, hiya! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67493)

Also, check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6576995) out if you know Saga. I personally think it's much better done.

Absol197
2011-07-26, 12:30 PM
Is this system the same as this one? (http://sites.google.com/site/avatard20/home) It looks to be, but just making sure.

Mephibosheth
2011-07-26, 01:22 PM
Yes, although the version from the Giantitp threads is probably more up-to-date, at least as far as the classes are concerned.