PDA

View Full Version : Belkar will escape from hell



Dante2001
2011-07-06, 01:30 PM
Ok, he's EVIL. CE, actually and its dead obviously he will go to hell. But that doesnt mean Belkar will accept it and stay there. There are some kind of badasses that just wont settle with eternal torture. There are 3 kinds of destinies am looking up for Belkar. 8 bit theater's readers know what I mean.

He will:

A- Escape from hell, facing countless demons with the help of Mr. Scruffy (or maybe even the "wacky old dude with the cat" might swap planes to aid him)
B- Kicked from hell. He's so evil and mean that even hell cant stand him and sends him back to the living world

And my favorite

C- Belkar takes over hell.

Thoughts? I like the character but its almost impossible a jump in the alignment. Maybe a long shot with his death but still a long shot.

Herpestidae
2011-07-06, 01:32 PM
A: Mid level Ranger barbarian. not powerful enough.
B: Not evil enough.
C: Same as A.

SamBurke
2011-07-06, 01:35 PM
Ok, he's EVIL. CE, actually and its dead obviously he will go to hell. But that doesnt mean Belkar will accept it and stay there. There are some kind of badasses that just wont settle with eternal torture. There are 3 kinds of destinies am looking up for Belkar. 8 bit theater's readers know what I mean.

He will:

A- Escape from hell, facing countless demons with the help of Mr. Scruffy (or maybe even the "wacky old dude with the cat" might swap planes to aid him)
B- Kicked from hell. He's so evil and mean that even hell cant stand him and sends him back to the living world

And my favorite

C- Belkar takes over hell.

Thoughts? I like the character but its almost impossible a jump in the alignment. Maybe a long shot with his death but still a long shot.

A) As to one, it'd have to be a freak of nature. But then again, maybe not. Plot related only.
B) Unfortunately, he's not. Asmodeous would have flayed the cat alive and used it as a seat cushion.
C) I don't know... Plot-explantion only. But SO LOVED.

Candle Jack
2011-07-06, 01:36 PM
I may be mistaken, but as a CE character, Belkar would go to the Abyss and not the Nine Hells.

NerfTW
2011-07-06, 01:55 PM
We've already seen 3 epic level wizard/sorcerers, one with he ability to kill 1/4 of the black dragon population with a single spell, under the direct control of demons not at the top of the hierarchy. So right off the bat, Belkar is nowhere near powerful enough to fight his way out of hell. We've already seen that he can be charmed easily, his wisdom score being abysmal. Against spells he's basically powerless.


Also, being able to escape from hell is a setting specific thing. We've already clearly seen that ghosts cannot influence the real world, and can only talk to some people at best. It's highly unlikely Belkar can even harm demons when he's in hell, let alone escape with any sort of physical body.

theinsulabot
2011-07-06, 02:15 PM
Black mage is so much higher level then belkar its not even funny. he is also more evil.


(well, perhaps, same level of evil, but more ways to express that evil)

SoC175
2011-07-06, 03:50 PM
Maybe Belkar eventually turns into a demon prince and takes over his own layer. However that would take time, even Orcus had to slowly go through all stages of demonic power before he became the mighty prince of the undead

Talvereaux
2011-07-06, 04:32 PM
"Escaping Hell" isn't going to happen. Part of the prophecy is 'not long for this world', which heavily insinuates when he dies, he will not return to the plane of the living again.

I don't see taking over Hell, either, on the grounds Belkar just isn't that powerful.

super dark33
2011-07-06, 04:41 PM
You dont seem to understand, hell is for lawfull evil people, and the Abyss is for chaotic evil people, so he wont escape from hell.

Evil does not equel power, even that his evil is mesured in kilonazis, there is no such thing as 'too evil for the abyss to have'.
so anything you mentiond is highly unlikely.

BLACK MAGE maneged to take over hell because he was more powerfull the the strongest fiend there,while belkar can be defeated by a bunch of babaus.

Boogeyman
2011-07-06, 05:46 PM
"Escaping Hell" isn't going to happen. Part of the prophecy is 'not long for this world', which heavily insinuates when he dies, he will not return to the plane of the living again.

I don't see taking over Hell, either, on the grounds Belkar just isn't that powerful.

"not long for this world" = Belkar goes to the Snarl world.

Also escaping from Hell doesn't have to mean taking on any of the major guys. He could just get lucky and get out riding some lowly creature someone summons.

Talvereaux
2011-07-06, 07:03 PM
"not long for this world" = Belkar goes to the Snarl world.

Maybe, maybe not, but that doesn't necessarily change my point. He's leaving the mortal plane and not coming back. That's been spelled out by the prophecy.


Also escaping from Hell doesn't have to mean taking on any of the major guys. He could just get lucky and get out riding some lowly creature someone summons.

Assuming that ever happens, they could send someone to collect him, as they said they would when Haerta escaped Darth V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html). It seems a bit cheap if the lower planes can be so easily escaped, and I figure with how many powerful characters get contained (e.g. the Soul Splice spirits), it's not something you can just muscle your way out of.

I don't see why he needs to 'broken free' of the lower planes, anyway, seeing as it doesn't really add to the story, and that's just what happens to evil characters in the OOTSverse.

NerfTW
2011-07-06, 07:35 PM
You dont seem to understand, hell is for lawfull evil people, and the Abyss is for chaotic evil people, so he wont escape from hell.

Arguing semantics doesn't change the point of the post, which was Belkar escaping from the afterlife he was trapped in. The name of it is irrelevant.


"not long for this world" = Belkar goes to the Snarl world.


There's two parts to the prophecy. There's also "draws his last breath ever".

Warder
2011-07-06, 07:39 PM
I don't think he'll come back either, but if he does, it's probably because he'll strike a deal with our three favorite demon wraith overlords.

Lord Bingo
2011-07-06, 07:41 PM
Thoughts? I like the character but its almost impossible a jump in the alignment. Maybe a long shot with his death but still a long shot.

At the risk of starting another debate about Belkar's alignment, I really do not see why an alignment shift would be impossible.

As for what I think of your ideas: No, no and no! Honestly I cannot decide which I think is worse.

Jade Dragon
2011-07-06, 08:41 PM
There's two parts to the prophecy. There's also "draws his last breath ever".

He becomes a sexy shoeless god of war in that world. Gods don't breathe. :smallwink:

Zevox
2011-07-06, 08:44 PM
There's two parts to the prophecy. There's also "draws his last breath ever".
Four, actually. We also have the "he should savor his next birthday cake" and "he shouldn't bother funding his IRA" remarks.

But yeah, basically what others have said. Belkar's nowhere near capable of escaping the Abyss, much less conquering it, and there's no such thing as being "too evil" for an evil plane. When he dies, he's stuck in the Abyss forever.

Zevox

Harr
2011-07-06, 09:04 PM
I just wish two things - firstly, that he would just die already so we can see what happens, whichever way it goes, and secondly but more importantly, that it happens in a way that doesn't create another "four words" situation in the forums.

Both slim hopes I know... :smallfrown:

silvadel
2011-07-06, 09:16 PM
He would have a very hard time. They would probably start by making him manifest as a kobold.

GSFB
2011-07-06, 10:44 PM
Spoiler alert:

Belkar is going to save this world by going into the Snarl, never to return. He is going to Cease. To. Be. in this reality. Gone. Kaput. Done. Forever more. Shuffling off this mortal coil.

The only way we can think of that he is GONE GONE GONE FOREVER MORE is into the Snarl. Any other scenario - undead, ghost, resurrection, reincarnation, escape from hell, etc - is an attempt to twist out of the oracle's words.

I just don't think Belkar will simply die and be gone, though. His death will have to mean something. There is a lot of plot invested in Belkar, and especially lately in his MoJ induced "new" self. This is meant to be building up to something important to the overall plot - as in, Belkar's death and his new personality are interdependent and essential.

As such, my prediction remains:

At the end of the story, when everything in the OotS-World hinges on the party doing the right thing at the right moment to prevent the Snarl from destroying everything, Belkar will be the hero and will die a hero's death. Maybe it will only be to save (or avenge) Mr. Scruffy - but still, he will save everything.

hoff
2011-07-06, 11:20 PM
Any other scenario - undead, ghost, resurrection, reincarnation, escape from hell, etc - is an attempt to twist out of the oracle's words.

Well, even the oracle likes to twist his own words...

Talvereaux
2011-07-06, 11:27 PM
Well, even the oracle likes to twist his own words...

He doesn't outright lie, though. His answers may be useless sometimes, but they're never incorrect.

Zevox
2011-07-06, 11:38 PM
Well, even the oracle likes to twist his own words...
Except of course that he doesn't, and never has. If anything, he's been excessively straightforward, with prophecies such as, for example, V's, being simple but useless (to the one asking the question, anyway). The only prophecy he's ever given that was so much as a metaphor was Haley's, and even that was pretty obvious when it started to occur.

Really, where do people get the idea that the Oracle's prophecies in this comic have ever involved word-twisting? There's almost always someone who makes a remark like that when discussing of the Oracle pops up, yet they never make any sense.

Zevox

Ramien
2011-07-06, 11:40 PM
Why would he want to escape? Why would whatever plane his soul ends up at not be the perfect place for him? The only afterlife we've really seen so far is for LG characters, and that seems to be well suited for LG characters - fun is allowed, but there's still plenty of opportunities to have guilt trips, and the point is to grow as a person. Why wouldn't the Belkster's afterlife be any different? The opportunities for fun would be a lot different, and the 'grow as a person' would likely be more 'become even more of a callous psycopath', but that's what people who take that alignment path are looking for, right?

Zevox
2011-07-06, 11:54 PM
Why would he want to escape?
:xykon: "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."

The evil afterlives are not a reward, save in rare instances of evil deities rewarding their faithful (and useful) followers (and as far as we've seen, Belkar is not religious). Souls that wind up in the Nine Hells, Abyss, and so forth are at the mercy of the fiends that live there, and as you might imagine, "mercy" is not something they have much of. Even ones that get turned into a fiend themselves start at the bottom of the food chain, with little power, and aren't going to be much better off until they manage to work their way up - if they survive to do so at all.

Zevox

Ramien
2011-07-07, 12:15 AM
:xykon: "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."

The evil afterlives are not a reward, save in rare instances of evil deities rewarding their faithful (and useful) followers (and as far as we've seen, Belkar is not religious). Souls that wind up in the Nine Hells, Abyss, and so forth are at the mercy of the fiends that live there, and as you might imagine, "mercy" is not something they have much of. Even ones that get turned into a fiend themselves start at the bottom of the food chain, with little power, and aren't going to be much better off until they manage to work their way up - if they survive to do so at all.

Zevox

Pure propaganda from the good side of the equation. Someone who practiced survival of the fittest for their entire mortal lives are not going to be dismayed at finding a whole new ladder to climb on the other side. Besides, they're always smart enough, tough enough, or cussed enough to make their way to the top in no time - just ask any of the people destined to go there.

Seriously, though - in a world that's run at least in part by evil deities, you'd think they'd at least have an incentive system of some type to get the worst and the vilest serving them, and that includes making sure the afterlife is something that evil types could get a twisted enjoyment from - maybe more front-loaded with pain, but still a chance to get stronger.

chaostheweird
2011-07-07, 01:30 AM
I don't think any of the three options will happen.

Option one- The oracle is pretty clear, Belkar is moving on out for good.

Option Two- That just silly, He's so Evil hell kicks him out is a lot like a company saying "He make us to much money, we need to fire him"

Option Three- Possible but realistically Belkar not even Epic level yet. That would be along time before he became powerful enough to become an Abysmal City Councilman, let alone a Prince of Hell.

Option four-An Alignment change might happen given his recent character growth, but that doesn't seem likely given how awesome he thinks he is. The only way I could see this happening is he pull a Little Nicky, and sacrifices himself to save someones life, earning him an instant shift good.

I think it's more likely that the Abyss is the perfect place for him. He's to clever "in his own brain damaged way" to spend the rest of his eternity caged in some huge torture pit and to self centered to care that he's dead. I think he's going to end up hunting through the Abyss collecting the heads of people who choose CE because it sounded edgy and dark.

Mystic Muse
2011-07-07, 02:23 AM
A- Escape from hell, facing countless demons with the help of Mr. Scruffy (or maybe even the "wacky old dude with the cat" might swap planes to aid him)


B- Kicked from hell. He's so evil and mean that even hell cant stand him and sends him back to the living world. Not happening. I've heard this excuse for some characters, and most of the time it is BS. Belkar does not qualify as "So evil even hell doesn't want him"


And my favorite

C- Belkar takes over hell.
Not even remotely possible. NerfTW said it better than I could so I'll just quote his response.



We've already seen 3 epic level wizard/sorcerers, one with he ability to kill 1/4 of the black dragon population with a single spell, under the direct control of demons not at the top of the hierarchy. So right off the bat, Belkar is nowhere near powerful enough to fight his way out of hell. We've already seen that he can be charmed easily, his wisdom score being abysmal. Against spells he's basically powerless.

Also, being able to escape from hell is a setting specific thing. We've already clearly seen that ghosts cannot influence the real world, and can only talk to some people at best. It's highly unlikely Belkar can even harm demons when he's in hell, let alone escape with any sort of physical body.

Two other things in addition to that. Belkar would have no magic items, and he can't even cast ranger spells because his wisdom is too low.

Killer Angel
2011-07-07, 06:53 AM
I like Belkar, but...


B- Kicked from hell.
C- Belkar takes over hell.


He's not LOBO, The Main Man. :smallamused:

Cracklord
2011-07-07, 08:35 AM
(well, perhaps, same level of evil, but more ways to express that evil)

Far more evil. When was the last time you saw Belkar actively trying to kill his friends?

Anyway, I shouldn't post here, as I tend to get angry in these sort of threads, but do you have any arguments as to why any of this will happen? Or are you just declaring things?

Burner28
2011-07-07, 08:43 AM
At the risk of starting another debate about Belkar's alignment, I really do not see why an alignment shift would be impossible.



Do you really think Belkar would want to have an alignment shift?:smallconfused:

martianmister
2011-07-07, 09:10 AM
Far more evil. When was the last time you saw Belkar actively trying to kill his friends?

Posting about his attacking to Elan for more XP is irrevelant to this post. Please don't do it. :smallfrown:

theinsulabot
2011-07-07, 09:24 AM
Far more evil. When was the last time you saw Belkar actively trying to kill his friends?

Anyway, I shouldn't post here, as I tend to get angry in these sort of threads, but do you have any arguments as to why any of this will happen? Or are you just declaring things?

well I do think BM is more evil, but I hedged it at the last second because BM doesn't have someone holding down is level of wanton destruction like Belkar does.

remember when roy's soul was judged and it showed Belkar's level of evil would be leaps and bounds higher if he wasnt kept under control by Roy, as opposed to thief, who doesnt bother to stop BM from anything as long as it didnt cost him anything.

Jay R
2011-07-07, 09:28 AM
We know the following.

1. Belkar will die within weeks.

2. The Order is on a path to face a powerful lich, risking their lives trying to defeat it.

3. This story, like all stories, will come to an end.

Why should Belkar come back? If he dies in the finale of the comic, then his return doesn't even provide any new Belkar strips, so what's the point?

Ramien
2011-07-07, 04:05 PM
Far more evil. When was the last time you saw Belkar actively trying to kill his friends?

That has nothing to do with how evil someone is - that's just a measure of pragmatism. Just because Belkar figured out 'If I attack the people I adventure with, there's a good chance they're not going to want to keep me alive,' does not mean he's less evil.

He has been trending towards less evil, though - witness the freeing the Allosaur, or the fact that he refused to kill Crystal since she was Haley's nemesis.

Incidentally, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html was the last time he tried killing a member of the Order. If you stretch the limit to include 'friendly NPC', http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html seems to be the last one. Both were before the Greater Mark of Justice going off and Belkar's visitation from Shojo.

And no, the fact that he was under a charm spell doesn't mitigate that attack against Durkon. The spell doesn't change what Belkar would normally do, which is why Nale couldn't get Belkar to kill them and give Nale their gear.

Jay R
2011-07-07, 04:11 PM
He has been trending towards less evil, though - witness the freeing the Allosaur, or the fact that he refused to kill Crystal since she was Haley's nemesis.

I just love the fact that the proof he is less evil is that he released a rampaging monster and failed to kill an assassin.

Jade Dragon
2011-07-07, 04:16 PM
I just love the fact that the proof he is less evil is that he released a rampaging monster and failed to kill an assassin.

And refusing to kill Crystal was fake character development.

Ramien
2011-07-07, 04:53 PM
I just love the fact that the proof he is less evil is that he released a rampaging monster and failed to kill an assassin.

He unleashed a rampaging monster not to cause devastation and widespread death, but to give the two bounty hunters a chance to escape. The 'old' Belkar would have released the Allosaur and then ran it up into the stands into the crowd, riding it like a cowboy and throwing daggers at the guards to keep them from getting in the way of his fun.

Jade Dragon
2011-07-07, 05:01 PM
He unleashed a rampaging monster not to cause devastation and widespread death, but to give the two bounty hunters a chance to escape. The 'old' Belkar would have released the Allosaur and then ran it up into the stands into the crowd, riding it like a cowboy and throwing daggers at the guards to keep them from getting in the way of his fun.

Um, and what proof do you have for that? He didn't want Roy to know he released the allosaurus, that's the only reason he didn't go out. And he doesn't have any weapons. And why the heck would he release a gigantic beast of destruction and meaningless carnage (is the allosaurus his aunt Judy? :smalltongue:) to save some people rather than to kill even more people?

Ramien
2011-07-07, 05:05 PM
Um, and what proof do you have for that? He didn't want Roy to know he released the allosaurus, that's the only reason he didn't go out. And he doesn't have any weapons. And why the heck would he release a gigantic beast of destruction and meaningless carnage (is the allosaurus his aunt Judy? :smalltongue:) to save some people rather than to kill even more people?

Fourth panel from the end. Most of the comic is about him not wanting Roy to know. My guess is because he doesn't want people thinking he's gone soft, because then it's nothing but work, work, work all the time.

Pokonic
2011-07-07, 05:08 PM
Unfortunatly, I dont think that belkar can die and succeded in killing all opposition on any layer within the time of the comic.

Moriarty
2011-07-07, 06:05 PM
I can't believe people seriously compare Belkar with Blackmage, Belkar is far outclassed in power as well as in evilness.

power: belkar can take on low level minions but is till week enough to be captured by lokal authorities. Blackmage on the other hand has an attack whose power varies between nuking an entire forest of the map and destroying a planet in one hit.

evilness: Belkar just kills people who are in his way, it's a practical solution to his problems. Blackmage on the other hand sacrifices children to dark gods as a hobby, tries to make his victims suffer when he kills them (burns children and hospitals first) and has an attack that actually syphons love out of the universe everytime he uses it.

Belkar is going to die people, and he's not coming back.

Jay R
2011-07-08, 09:29 AM
He unleashed a rampaging monster not to cause devastation and widespread death, but to give the two bounty hunters a chance to escape. The 'old' Belkar would have released the Allosaur and then ran it up into the stands into the crowd, riding it like a cowboy and throwing daggers at the guards to keep them from getting in the way of his fun.

Don't care. I still just love the fact that the proof he is less evil is that he released a rampaging monster and failed to kill an assassin.

This is called "irony", and it remains fun even if I know where it came from.

Ramien
2011-07-08, 12:31 PM
Don't care. I still just love the fact that the proof he is less evil is that he released a rampaging monster and failed to kill an assassin.

This is called "irony", and it remains fun even if I know where it came from.

True enough. Although now I'm wishing we had seen the aforementioned scene.

enderlord99
2011-07-08, 06:16 PM
Far more evil. When was the last time you saw Belkar actively trying to kill his friends?

Anyway, I shouldn't post here, as I tend to get angry in these sort of threads, but do you have any arguments as to why any of this will happen? Or are you just declaring things?

I'm confused about how you hate Belkar as a person AND a character "because he's evil", but hate Xykon as a person yet love him as a character... because he's evil. Care to explain that?

Jay R
2011-07-08, 09:19 PM
Far more evil. When was the last time you saw Belkar actively trying to kill his friends?

More importantly, if he's tried even once, and they are still alive, then he's certainly not ready to take over Hell.