My Fix To Divine Casting

[Shadow Lord]

There is no such thing as Divine Casting. Clerics get Domains, which give separate class abilities for each. Everyone gets class features to replace the lost spells, or, if they already have class features, are left as is.

How badly would this screw up the game?

[NeoSeraphi]

There is no such thing as Divine Casting. Clerics get Domains, which give separate class abilities for each. Everyone gets class features to replace the lost spells, or, if they already have class features, are left as is.

How badly would this screw up the game?

It would certainly make playing an archivist...interesting. But for the four divine casting classes in core, it would only lessen their individual power slightly (except for the druid, but the druid can just turn into a bear and bear-gank people with his pet bear)

Edit: Also, interestingly enough, it would make a bard much more powerful, as unless the cleric took the healing domain, the bard would be the only class with access to the cure spells

[Welknair]

Edit: Also, interestingly enough, it would make a bard much more powerful, as unless the cleric took the healing domain, the bard would be the only class with access to the cure spells

Why can they even do that? I've never understood why Bards, a base PHB class, breaks one of the fundamental rules: ARCANE CLASSES DON'T HEAL! I had to make a special exception in my Magitech system to prevent a Wizard from making a device that turned his Magic Missiles into CLWs.

[NeoSeraphi]

Why can they even do that? I've never understood why Bards, a base PHB class, breaks one of the fundamental rules: ARCANE CLASSES DON'T HEAL! I had to make a special exception in my Magitech system to prevent a Wizard from making a device that turned his Magic Missiles into CLWs.

Bards are support-casters. They should be able to support people's health.

Edit: And it's not exactly a fundamental rule if core breaks it. :smallamused:

[Kobold-Bard]

Why can they even do that? I've never understood why Bards, a base PHB class, breaks one of the fundamental rules: ARCANE CLASSES DON'T HEAL! I had to make a special exception in my Magitech system to prevent a Wizard from making a device that turned his Magic Missiles into CLWs.

Legacy ability.

Bards used to be Fighter/Rogue/Druid multiclass creatures. Therefore Bards in 3.5 can supposedly Fight, Skill-ify & Heal all at once.

[Welknair]

Legacy ability.

Bards used to be Fighter/Rogue/Druid multiclass creatures. Therefore Bards in 3.5 can supposedly Fight, Skill-ify & Heal all at once.

Wouldn't that make them divine though? It'd be perfectly understandable if their fluff was something along the lines of them praying to the gods through their songs to invoke powers - thus making the healing perfectly logical - but that's not the case.

[Kobold-Bard]

Wouldn't that make them divine though? It'd be perfectly understandable if their fluff was something along the lines of them praying to the gods through their songs to invoke powers - thus making the healing perfectly logical - but that's not the case.

Apparently the Bard is an exception to the usual rules.

The Fochlucan Lyrist (3.5) is essentially what the Bard (>3.5) used to be, but in 3.5 they count as arcane.

[Shadow Lord]

What if I took away Turn/Rebuke Undead. Then what would happen?

[Welknair]

Apparently the Bard is an exception to the usual rules.

The Fochlucan Lyrist (3.5) is essentially what the Bard (>3.5) used to be, but in 3.5 they count as arcane.

Hence it bugging be.

Sorry for the derail. With this proposed fix, would Clerics gain more domains?

[Shadow Lord]

Hence it bugging be.

Sorry for the derail. With this proposed fix, would Clerics gain more domains?

Possibly; I haven't decided. What's your opinion of it, Gareth?

[Cipher Stars]

Why can they even do that? I've never understood why Bards, a base PHB class, breaks one of the fundamental rules: ARCANE CLASSES DON'T HEAL! I had to make a special exception in my Magitech system to prevent a Wizard from making a device that turned his Magic Missiles into CLWs.
Erm... Bards are less "Arcane Caster" more.... "Musical Caster", if that helps.

What if I took away Turn/Rebuke Undead. Then what would happen?

Bad! bad puppy, go sit in the corner. :smalleek:
Turn/Rebuke is like... Druid's wild-shape, or a Fighters pointy-stick.

[Yitzi]

What if I took away Turn/Rebuke Undead. Then what would happen?

Then one of the cleric's most iconic abilities would be removed.

Taking away all uses for turn/rebuke undead charges except for actually turning and rebuking undead, however, is definitely an option, though.

[NeoSeraphi]

What if you took away a cleric's ability to turn?

Suddenly the paladin would be better at dealing with undead than the cleric. And the 3.5 fanbase would rage.

[Glimbur]

There is no such thing as Divine Casting. Clerics get Domains, which give separate class abilities for each. Everyone gets class features to replace the lost spells, or, if they already have class features, are left as is.

How badly would this screw up the game?

There are a number of spells which are expected, because monsters or rival spellcasters inflict conditions which cannot be healed without divine casting. Paralysis (can usually be waited out), Blindness/Deafness, Disease (which can be dealt with more slowly via Heal checks), Death (it's a status condition, honest!), ability drain, negative levels (but again, these can be waited out but with some risk involved), Atonement, and probably other effects which are more specific to monsters.

What role does the Cleric play now? I could see making different domains for different archetypes with scaling class features, but that is a nontrivial amount of work. A Healing domain could replace the missing curative powers, but it is kind of sad to require a PC to make a specific build choice to patch up the party when they are blinded/killed/turned purple.

What role do Druids play now? They could probably be replaced by the Wildshape ranger variant with the entire Druid wildshape progression attached instead of what Wildshape Ranger gets by RAW.

What role does the Paladin play now? In core, his spells aren't that great but if you want to stealth buff him this is an excellent excuse. Ranger is in a similar boat in Core. Spell Compendium, and other books, add nice spells to these spell lists.

[Shadow Lord]

I'd probably be buffing up the Paladin, and making him not suck(!!)

I'd probably let the Cleric channel positive energy, or negative energy. No turn/rebuke as is, but something similar, as well as a healing mechanic for each side of it. Oh, and the Cure line is added to Necromancy.

Druids would get accelerated Wildshape, starting at 1st.

[DiBastet]

Why arcane spells don't heal? It's plain stupid, and against all Lore except FF.

[Welknair]

Why arcane spells don't heal? It's plain stupid, and against all Lore except FF.



Because there has to be a reason that people would play a Cleric instead of a Wizard.

[Shadow Lord]

Because there has to be a reason that people would play a Cleric instead of a Wizard.

Other than because a Cleric can cast in full plate, Gareth? Perhaps you should reconsider: you play Clerics because they're T1, and healing isn't part of it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Clerics get: spontaneous cure, d8 HD, heavy armor proficiency, no somatic spell failure, domain powers, a great spell list, the Hero Domain (access to giantsize is relevant for a melee monster) and Divine Metamagic.

Not to mention miracle doesn't have an XP cost.

[Welknair]

Other than because a Cleric can cast in full plate, Gareth? Perhaps you should reconsider: you play Clerics because they're T1, and healing isn't part of it.

It's trivial to get the AFC of full plate down to 0%. But that's beside the point. The creators never thought that the classes would end up as they did. Clerics were intended to be the healbots. It just turns out they're far better doing other things.

[Shadow Lord]

It's trivial to get the AFC of full plate down to 0%. But that's beside the point. The creators never thought that the classes would end up as they did. Clerics were intended to be the healbots. It just turns out they're far better doing other things.

Gareth, if Clerics were meant to be Healbots, what's the point of the Healer? Gosh, Gareth, you sure are silly.

[NeoSeraphi]

It's trivial to get the AFC of full plate down to 0%. But that's beside the point. The creators never thought that the classes would end up as they did. Clerics were intended to be the healbots. It just turns out they're far better doing other things.

Wait, I'm confused. If clerics were intended to be healbots, why did bards get healing? :smallamused:

[erikun]

Druids would be T3, thanks to Wildshape. The Wildshape Ranger is already T3 thanks to the ability, so having it + Animal Companion + minor abilities would definitely put the Druid on a similar level.

How it would affect Clerics depends on how you are handling it. Losing all spellcasting and only picking up domain abilities? I suppose that would give some unique abilities to have, but it's best use becomes dipping for a melee class - Freedom of Movement and free move actions from Travel Domain/Devotion? Sure! If we are talking keeping domain spell slots, then it's a bit better, although I would find it hard to play a "classical" healer.

Paladins and Rangers are low enough, and don't need kicked any more. There are spellless variants, which aren't that great but are better than losing the ability completely.

The Healer class manages to suck even more than it currently does.

Other than that, Glimbur points out the biggest problem. Parties are expected to be able to deal with certain effects at a certain level. Almost all of those ways are on the Cleric or Druid spell lists. Taking them away removes the ability to cure any otherwise permanent condition. Dead? Pertified? Cursed? Heck, blind? Too bad, there isn't a class to heal you anymore. I wish your blind wizard luck with reading their spellbook.


What if I took away Turn/Rebuke Undead. Then what would happen?
Removing Turn Undead and Spellcasting? Well then, the cleric is now a 3/4 BAB Commoner.

Removing just Turn Undead? You're taking away one of the better ways to use feats (DMM being just one use) but they are still a full spellcaster.

[Welknair]

Wait, I'm confused. If clerics were intended to be healbots, why did bards get healing? :smallamused:

*Bangs head on keyboard*

[Shadow Lord]

Err-- I sorta did say something about positive and negative energy channeling. And the domain's would grant class abilities that scale.


*Bangs head on keyboard*

What, Gareth? What could you possibly find wrong, Gareth?

[T.G. Oskar]

I dunno, but "Domains" and "remove TU/RU fluff" is basically the Ardent. That, or the d20r Cleric.

While I support this idea to a degree (the respec of Clerics into their Sphere components as in AD&D 2nd), Paladins' and Rangers' spell lists are quite specific to their classes so as to NEED a change. That, and you'd effectively kill the Druid, since Wildshape Ranger variant would take the shapechanging. Well, maybe you could make Animal domain have Wildshape, which would spell doom for the Druid but make the Cleric even MORE of a powerhouse.

However, I *would* consider a kosher spell list all Clerics *should* have. Consecrate and Desecrate, Hallow and Unhallow, and perhaps a few others should be part of a general list of spells all Clerics are capable of preparing (though IMO they should be Incantations as those in UA). The rest is based on the choice of domains, following the Ardent line. Favored Souls would gain fewer Domains but the ability to cast all spells from that domain.

Still; trying to make such an overhaul to the Cleric would be truly mad, because Tier 1 classes have a brutal information overload (for example; spell-wise nearly all D&D books have new content for Clerics, and a sizeable amount aren't loaded into domains). You'd need to find equivalences between the domains, and even ONE domain would be pretty powerful on its own. Stuff like removing some of the Cleric's proficiencies and maybe downgrading their Hit Dice (they're already powerful; d6 is perfect for their needs unlike that of Rogues) is easy enough, but dealing with their spell list is a nightmare. Turning some of their spells into incantations isn't as nightmarish as dealing with their entire spell list.

Though, boosting domain powers? That might be a fair play, since it makes Cleric 20 viable (as if it weren't already). Also, move a few spells unto domains (really; Divine Power should be War domain specific, and the [Divine] Word spells should be alignment-exclusive, for example). It's a bit simpler in that regard.

But nixing divine casting and making it sphere-based? Madness. MAAADNESS!

[Shadow Lord]

This? This is not Madness! THIS! IS! GIANT IN THE PLAYGROUND!!!!!!!!!

[Welknair]

This? This is not Madness! THIS! IS! GIANT IN THE PLAYGROUND!!!!!!!!!

*Spartakicks into Gate to the far realms*

[Shadow Lord]

*Spartakicks into Gate to the far realms*

Three person coordinated movie reference? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

[T.G. Oskar]

Three person coordinated movie reference? THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE! AND THE REASON IS...BECAUSE I'M A POSTER...OF THIS GREAT GIANT IN THE PLAYGROUND FORUM!!!

(alternatively: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Alright; out of silliness...I have little to add to the topic aside from "you'd also need to revise Spirit Shaman". Since the loss of the Druid spell list would also require the Spirit Shaman to have its own spell list. Sohei, on the other hand...

[Shadow Lord]

How many divine casters are there :smalleek:

[Welknair]

(alternatively: [B]"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


I would have said that if he had said "inconceivable" instead of "impossible".


How would Clerics be differentiated from Favored Souls?

[Shadow Lord]

I would have said that if he had said "inconceivable" instead of "impossible".


How would Clerics be differentiated from Favored Souls?

'Cuz Favored Souls would have cool abilities reflected off of a single domain, Gareth.

[Welknair]

'Cuz Favored Souls would have cool abilities reflected off of a single domain, Gareth.

So we'd need to create sets of abilities for every domain? That could take a while. Especially when you consider the SpC.


I'm curious what Lord_Gareth is going to do when he finds out you've been saying his name in vain.

[NeoSeraphi]

How many divine casters are there :smalleek:

Oh I love questions like this:

Cleric, druid, archivist, spirit shaman, favored soul, shugenja, paladin, ranger, all the prestige classes that grant their own divine spellcasting like apostle of peace (Book of Exalted Deeds), the savant (Dragon Compendium), and are there any I'm missing?

[Welknair]

Don't forget the Adept!

[NeoSeraphi]

How could I forget the adept! You want to nerf NPC characters like that?

[Steward]

Oh I love questions like this:

Cleric, druid, archivist, spirit shaman, favored soul, shugenja, paladin, ranger, all the prestige classes that grant their own divine spellcasting like apostle of peace (Book of Exalted Deeds), the savant (Dragon Compendium), and are there any I'm missing?

When people think about nerfing divine casters, are they thinking more about Clerics or Druids or are they cowering before the fearsome, game-breaking might of the Paladin, the Ranger, and the Shugenja (what is that? a low-rent cleric?) :wink:

[Shadow Lord]

No, no, no, you see, you are now Gareth. The other guy is Lord_Gareth. There's a difference.

It's those gosh dang Paladins that are always breaking my game. It's so annoying! :smallannoyed:

[Welknair]

Nah, a Shugenjas are way worse. Stomped on one of my towns.

[DiBastet]

Well, necromancy healing is arcane also in my campaigns. \people still play clerics to be powerhouses of their god portfolio and less squishy as well.