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Adamantrue
2011-07-14, 06:15 PM
Though my favorite Class will always be Fighters, Iíve always had a soft spot for Monks. Say what you like about them, but the combination of abilities and limitations always seems like a great deal of fun, and a sort of challenge.

With that said, its pretty obvious that they didnít get enough higher-level support (excluding certain Prestige Classes, but thatís more true for other Classes). They have a good amount on the low-end, but even the lowly Fighter has some decent options to choose from past level 10.

I thought Iíd give a go with Monks the same way Iíve been working on the Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177085), and see if I can work towards something that satisfies my tastes and the needs of the class.

R1: Monk Variants

Expanding on the Monk Fighting Styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les), these are an attempt to expand them to include complimentary ACFs.

This is going to take a while. I don't even have any ideas for most of them.

Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike)
Dance of the Serpent
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: As an immediate action, you may reduce the damage of a single attack made by the target of your Dodge feat. You make an Escape Artist check, with the DC equal to your opponentís attack roll. If you succeed, the damage from that attack is halved (rounding down).
If the attack also requires you to make opposed rolls (such as a bull rush or trip), you may oppose it with an Escape Artist check.

Eyes of the Serpent
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You become attuned to perceiving the world with your other senses, most notably through vibration and smell. You gain Blindsense out to 60 ft.
Eyes of the Serpent is an extraordinary ability.

Hundred Viper Strike
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: When making a Spring Attack against the target of your Dodge feat, you may choose to make your attack a full attack. You may choose to use Flurry of Blows during this special Spring Attack.

Coiled Stance
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: To use this ability, you must be fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise while making a full attack, and must not choose to use Flurry of Blows. If you do, your Quivering Palmís save DC increases to 10 + your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Denying Stance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#denyingStance)
Avoid and Counter
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using the Combat Expertise feat, a melee attack by an opponent that misses provokes a special Attack of Opportunity. You may only make a grapple or disarm attempt against that opponent when using this ability.

Widening the Stance
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, you may choose to be treated as one size category larger as an immediate action, and revert to your original size as a free action. This is an extraordinary ability.
Widening the Stance grants you a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity, and a -1 size penalty to attacks and AC. Your space and reach increases by 5 ft. This effect stacks with any other effect that increases a characterís size (such as enlarge person).

Acrobatic Denial
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: When attempting to grapple an opponent that is under the effect of freedom of movement or similar ability, you may make a special Tumble check as an immediate action to negate its effects for the purpose of your grapple only. The DC is equal to 10 + level of the spell + the casterís relevant ability score, and the effect lasts until the start of your next turn.
You may also use a Tumble check to oppose an Escape Artist attempt to get out of a grapple or pin.

Disarming Strike
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, you may make a free disarm attempt whenever you make a successful melee attack.
Hand and Foot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#handandFoot)
Sure-Footed Stance
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: Whenever an opponent attempts to Bull Rush or Trip you, you may make a Balance check in place of a Dexterity or Strength check to resist the attempt.

Stunning Opportunist
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You may wait until after the attack roll is made before you declare the use of your Stunning Fist feat. This ability may only be used during your turn.

Whirlwind Trip
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: As a full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one trip attack against each opponent within reach. You forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Supreme Deflection
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this ability. Once per round when you would normally be hit with an unusually massive ranged weapon or ranged attack generated by spell effects, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
Invisible Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#invisibleEye)
Sense the Unseen
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: You become attuned to perceiving the world through sound alone, if needed. You gain Blindsight out to distance equal to your land speed.

Danger's Whisper
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You may make a Listen check in place of an Initiative check.

Deceive the Eye
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: With a swift action, you can become invisible, as the invisibility spell. The effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
You may use this ability three times per day, plus one per monk level after 11th. Deceive the eye is a supernatural ability.

Betray the Eye
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability, Deceive the Eye
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: When using Deceive the Eye, spells and abilities that can normally reveal invisible opponents (such as Blindsight, true seeing or faerie fire) do not reveal you.
Betray the Eye is a supernatural ability.
Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay)
Practiced Feint
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: Add one-half your Monk level to your Bluff or Sense Motive checks when making or opposing a Feint.

Cleverly Mislead
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise, you may apply a bonus to Bluff checks when performing a feint, Sense Motive checks to oppose a feint, and Strength checks when performing or resisting a trip attack, equal to the bonus you gain to AC.

Greater Feint
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: You may Feint in combat as a swift action.
In addition, you do not have a penalty to Feint checks against nonhumanoids, only take a -4 penalty against creatures of animal intelligence, and may attempt a Feint against nonintelligent foes with a -8 penalty.

Supreme Feint
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: If you make a successful Feint check, your opponent is denied their Dexterity bonus until the beginning of your next turn.
In addition, you do not have a penalty to Feint checks against creatures of animal intelligence, and may attempt a Feint against nonintelligent foes with a -4 penalty.
Sleeping Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger)
Power and Grace
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: Whenever your Dexterity modifier or your Strength modifier would be applied to a dice roll, you may add both together to determine the bonus. This includes (but is not limited to) attack and damage rolls, Reflex saves, initiative, skill checks, and opposed rolls.
You gain a natural armor bonus to your AC equal to your Strength modifier.

Strength through Speed
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You may use Power Attack with light & thrown weapons, except one-half the number you subtract from attack rolls is added to the damage rolls of those weapons instead. You still get the full amount with your unarmed strikes.

Tiger's Pounce
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Hidden Tiger
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: As a swift action, you may make a special feint attempt using Hide instead of Bluff. Your opponent may oppose it with either Sense Motive or Spot. R2: Feats

For the purposes of these feats, you may substitute the appropriate Decisive Strike or Skirmish abilities to qualify. These are the initial ideas, and may require some serious rebalancing. Feedback is not just welcome...its kinda required.

Additional Training [General]
Practice has taught you how to use a wider variety of weapons more effectively.
Prerequisites: Monk level 1st
Benefit: You may treat the club, dagger, handaxe, and javelin as special Monk weapons. This means you can use them to make a Flurry of Blows.

All is Illusion [General]
Through meditation and enlightenment, you perceive reality in new ways.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 17, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul
Benefit: The All is Illusion feat enables the use of the following three abilities.
No Distance: What once seemed a great effort is now a simple matter. You may use Abundant Step as a move action. It becomes an Extraordinary Ability.
No Mind: The ability to resist magic rests deep in your mind. You may voluntarily raise or lower your spell resistance as an immediate action. You may do so even when unconscious.
No Body: The walls of reality are a simple illusion. If you become ethereal, as with the etherealness spell or the monkís Empty Body class feature, you gain the Manifestation ability (as the Ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) ability). Manifesting is a swift action.

Embrace the Magic [General]
Harnessing the supernatural abilities you already possess, you can focus them into enhance your physical attacks.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 15, Ki Strike, Stunning Fist
Benefit: You may channel your Ki energies to enhance your unarmed strikes.
As a swift action, pick any number of melee weapon abilities equivalent to an enhancement bonus (such as Disruption or Flaming), up to a limit of one-half your monk level. You may spend a number of your uses of the Stunning Fist feat equal to the totaled enhancement bonuses. If you do, your unarmed strikes are treated as having those enhancements. This benefit lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier.
You must have a monk level that is greater or equal to caster level of any ability in order to select it, and you cannot choose an ability that corresponds to an opposing alignment You cannot add any additional abilities during the manifestation of this ability, but you may dismiss it as a free action, and choose new ones at the next opportunity.
*Note: I could use a hand rewording this, as my description seems...clunky.

Empty the Mind [General]
You can take a moment to focus you mind, and renew your energies.
Prerequisites: Fast Movement 30 ft, Flurry of Blows, Improved Evasion
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may meditate to attempt to renew the daily uses of a single monk ability (such as Wholeness of Body or Abundant Step). This provokes an attack of opportunity, and if you take damage, are effected by a spell, moved from your current position, or take any other action before your next turn, the attempt does not succeed.
For the purposes of this feat, your daily uses of Stunning Fist is considered a monk ability.
Special: You may also regain the use of Quivering Palm with this ability, but you must meditate for 10 uninterrupted minutes.

Sanctified Strike [General]
Your can turn your fist into an instrument of good.
Prerequisites: Stunning Fist, Ki Strike (lawful), good alignment
Benefit: Against an evil opponent, you can make an unarmed attack that does an extra 2d6 points of damage. You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack ruins the attempt). Each attempt counts as one of your uses of the Stunning Fist feat for the day. Creatures immune to stunning can be affected by this extra damage.

Vile Strike [General]
Your can turn your fist into an instrument of evil.
Prerequisites: Stunning Fist, Ki Strike (lawful), evil alignment
Benefit: Against a good opponent, you can make an unarmed attack that does an extra 2d6 points of damage. You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack ruins the attempt). Each attempt counts as one of your uses of the Stunning Fist feat for the day. Creatures immune to stunning can be affected by this extra damage.

Adamantrue
2011-07-21, 09:21 AM
R3: Magic Items

Some more support for the monk could come in handy.

Weapon: Greatstaff
Price: 16,600 gp
Body Slot: - (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate Transmutation
Activation: - and swift (command)
Weight: 4 lb
This +1/+1 quarterstaff deals damage equal to your unarmed strike damage (if that is greater than the normal damage for a quarterstaff).
If you have levels in the Monk Class, the greatstaff gains the Ki Strike ability. In addition, you may spend a Stunning Fist attempt to increase the length of the quarterstaff, giving it a Reach of 5 ft. This is a swift action, and last a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Ring: Precious Mettle
Price: 25,000 gp
Body Slot: Ring
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate Abjuration
Activation: -
Weight: -
Forged of cold iron, this unimpressive ring offers unique protection against certain types of magic. It is a counterpart to the ring of evasion.
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had Mettle. Whenever she makes a Fortitude or Will saving throw to determine whether she is subject to half or part of the effect, a successful save results in no effect.

Wondrous Item: Crystal Lotus
Price: 5,000 gp
Body Slot: Throat
Caster Level: 5th
Aura: Faint Transmutation
Activation: Continuous
Weight: -
The crystal lotus is a simple charm worn around the neck, adorned with a lotus bloom carved from pure jade. Most prominent is the setting, which has three distinct indentations.
A crystal lotus can hold three Augment Crystals (Magic Item Compendium). You can mount a single armor crystal, shield crystal, and weapon crystal on the crystal lotus, and gain their benefits (in the case of weapon crystals, it affects your unarmed strikes only).
Any character may mount least augment crystals on the crystal lotus. If you have the Ki Strike (magic) Class Feature, you may mount lesser augment crystals, and if you have the Ki Strike (lawful) Class Feature, you may mount greater augment crystals.

Sadly, I don't expect any more attention here than I got with the Feat options. But there ain't no harm in trying.

Yitzi
2011-07-21, 11:10 AM
I'd say the first question is what role should they play? Anticaster? Mobile striker? Once you've decided that, you can give them abilities to assist in that role.

Telonius
2011-07-21, 11:37 AM
I'd make a change here:




Empty the Mind [General]
You can take a moment to focus you mind, and renew your energies.
Prerequisites: Fast Movement 30 ft, Flurry of Blows, Improved Evasion
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may meditate to attempt to renew the daily uses of a single monk ability (such as Wholeness of Body or Abundant Step). This provokes an attack of opportunity, and if you take damage, are effected by a spell, moved from your current position, or take any other action before your next turn, the attempt does not succeed.
For the purposes of this feat, your daily uses of Stunning Fist is considered a monk ability.

You may also spend one hour of meditation to gain an extra use of the Quivering Palm ability.


I really like this idea, especially in combination with some of the Stunning Fist feats in CWar. It would make the Monk much more like a reliable status-dealer. It would basically turn all of your "Per Day" stuff into "Per Encounter" stuff, with refills similar to Warblade.

Andorax
2011-07-21, 12:58 PM
I definately like the Crystal Lotus...reminds me of a crystal mask I invented that had three "third eye" slots set into it for a heavily psi-focused campaign.


You might want to take a look at the longstaff (CA) as a basis for your Greatstaff. Also, I'm a bit leery of your "spend a stunning fist" cost on it...I once designed a class feature for a staff-related PRC that allowed the wielder to alternately treat it as a double weapon OR a reach weapon...I think the same could be applied here (sure, you can hit things farther away, but not with both ends). I don't feel it would be overpowering to allow that tradeoff to apply any/all the time.

For extra kung-fu pole vaulting action, you could up the price slightly and also tack on a +10 to running jump checks.




Empty the Mind: Can this be done without limit? So all of the daily monk abilities, with one feat available at 9th level, are now (at worst) encounter abilities?


Embrace the Magic seems pretty strong to me. A 10th level monk could burn 5 stunning fist attempts as a swift action to have vorpal hands for the next 5 (assuming Wis 20) rounds?

I think a shortcut to the wording at the end would be "This ability does not stack with itself". You might also be able to make it clearer by way of an example or two (such as the one above).



In concept, I like the idea of taking the fighting styles and giving them higher-level feats. I would like to see their "related skill" listed as a pre-requisite though. Cobra Strike Disciple, for example, could have an added requirement of "Escape Artist 12 ranks".

If these were expanded to encompass all of the listed schools, and standardized around consistent levels (targetting, say, 11th, 13th and 17th), you could even do a Monk Specialist substitution levels 'class' that has an alternate style pre-requisite and grants the advanced feats of a given school in place of a standard monk benefit at those levels.




To wit:

Disciple of the Invisible Eye:

Pre-requisites: Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Blind-Fight, Agile, Completed the Invisible Eye Fighting Style, Listen 14 ranks.

Benefit: When blinded, either by circumstance, or by choice (Concentration check DC 15 in combat), the Disciple is considered to have blindsense out to 10'. Opponents can attempt to hide from this ability by making a move silently check opposed by the Disciple's listen check.


Hear the Heart:

Pre-requisites: Disciple of the Invisible Eye, Listen 16 ranks.

Benefit: +2d6 sneak attack ability against any target with a circulatory system. Creatures normally immune to sneak attack are immune to this ability.


Master of the Invisible Eye:

Pre-requisites: Disciple of the Invisible Eye, Hear the Heart, Listen 20 ranks.

Benefit: As Disciple of the Invisible Eye, but this ability now grants blindsight out to 60'. Concentration checks are no longer necessary to accept voluntary blindness. In addition, no opponent can surprise the Master of the Invisible Eye in combat without succeding at a move silently check opposed by the Master's listen check.



Monk Specialist

Pre-requisites: completed a fighting style as described in UA Monk Variant. All requisite feats must have been taken as bonus feats at their appropriate level, and the 6th level benefit must have been gained.

HD, Skills, BAB, Saves, Flurry, Unarmed, AC and Speed bonuses are all as per standard monk.

11th: Disciple. Receive the Disciple feat for the appropriate Monk School as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the Diamond Body ability of the regular monk (Greater flurry is still gained as normal).

13th: Honored Disciple. Receive the second feat for the appropriate Monk School as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the Diamond Soul ability of the regular monk.

17th: Master. Receive the Master feat for the appropriate Monk School as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the Tongue of Sun and Moon ability of the regular monk (Timeless body is still gained as normal)

Adamantrue
2011-07-21, 07:55 PM
Cool...I guess persistence does pay off to a degree.
You might want to take a look at the longstaff (CA) as a basis for your Greatstaff. Also, I'm a bit leery of your "spend a stunning fist" cost on it...I once designed a class feature for a staff-related PRC that allowed the wielder to alternately treat it as a double weapon OR a reach weapon...I think the same could be applied here (sure, you can hit things farther away, but not with both ends). I don't feel it would be overpowering to allow that tradeoff to apply any/all the time.

For extra kung-fu pole vaulting action, you could up the price slightly and also tack on a +10 to running jump checks. I did look at the Longstaff, but I don't particularly like it. That's a matter of personal tastes, mind you, as I could see how people may like it.

I don't think a Quarterstaff would normally be useable as a Reach weapon, as traditionally they aren't that much longer than, say, a claymore (perhaps a foot or two). The same wouldn't be true with an actual long staff, which would be over 10 ft. I expected a mention on Reach in CW, and was surprised not to find it.

I'd think I'd have to up the price to allow it to continuously function as a Reach Weapon in the hands of a Monk, but it might not be such a bad thing. They would still have Unarmed Strikes to work against anyone that got inside Reach-range.

Of course, happiness is not having to choose. Perhaps having both would be the best compromise? No reason no not have a competing staff on the market.
Empty the Mind: Can this be done without limit? So all of the daily monk abilities, with one feat available at 9th level, are now (at worst) encounter abilities? Yes, which I was a bit leery of at first. However, I think it its somewhat necessary for them to stay competitive over the course of a full day, while not drastically increasing their total potential in any single encounter. Speaking of which...
Empty the Mind [General]
You can take a moment to focus you mind, and renew your energies.
Prerequisites: Fast Movement 30 ft, Flurry of Blows, Improved Evasion
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may meditate to attempt to renew the daily uses of a single monk ability (such as Wholeness of Body or Abundant Step). This provokes an attack of opportunity, and if you take damage, are effected by a spell, moved from your current position, or take any other action before your next turn, the attempt does not succeed.
For the purposes of this feat, your daily uses of Stunning Fist is considered a monk ability.

You may also spend one hour of meditation to gain an extra use of the Quivering Palm ability. I'm waffling a little on this. On one hand, I think an hour is a bit much, and maybe something more along the lines of 10 minutes would work better. On the other hand, the Cobra Strike Disciple can already use Empty the Mind for their Quivering Palm, and I don't want to let another feat trivialize one of its goodies.
Embrace the Magic seems pretty strong to me. A 10th level monk could burn 5 stunning fist attempts as a swift action to have vorpal hands for the next 5 (assuming Wis 20) rounds?

I think a shortcut to the wording at the end would be "This ability does not stack with itself". You might also be able to make it clearer by way of an example or two (such as the one above). Technically, you can only have a Vorpal effect on a Slashing Weapon, so Unarmed Strikes would normally be ineligible (though there is probably a few ways around this effect). Assuming you found a way to do Slashing damage with your Unarmed Strikes, Vorpal requires a Caster Level of 18, so you couldn't manifest the ability until 18th level.

If that wasn't clear in the initial description...can you help me a little more with the wording?
In concept, I like the idea of taking the fighting styles and giving them higher-level feats. I would like to see their "related skill" listed as a pre-requisite though. Cobra Strike Disciple, for example, could have an added requirement of "Escape Artist 12 ranks". Because of the abilities keyed to the appropriate Skill, I don't think its altogether needed to demand a specific number of Ranks. But it is a trivial enough matter that I could include it.
If these were expanded to encompass all of the listed schools, and standardized around consistent levels (targetting, say, 11th, 13th and 17th), you could even do a Monk Specialist substitution levels 'class' that has an alternate style pre-requisite and grants the advanced feats of a given school in place of a standard monk benefit at those levels. Believe it or not, I'd rather try to get those abilities to be more useful in general play, than to instead drop them entirely.

On the other hand, gaining a new Class Feature that relates to the Fighting Style instead, that isn't something available as a Feat, would be pretty nifty.
...bunch of ideas for Invisible Eye... Now that is a direction for the Invisible Eye. I admit to having trouble thinking of ideas for that Style.

It doesn't exactly follow the same template as the others, though (granting a single ability instead of 3). Are you talking about those as Feats, or as ACFs?
Monk Specialist

Pre-requisites: completed a fighting style as described in UA Monk Variant. All requisite feats must have been taken as bonus feats at their appropriate level, and the 6th level benefit must have been gained.

HD, Skills, BAB, Saves, Flurry, Unarmed, AC and Speed bonuses are all as per standard monk.

11th: Disciple. Receive the Disciple feat for the appropriate Monk School as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the Diamond Body ability of the regular monk (Greater flurry is still gained as normal).

13th: Honored Disciple. Receive the second feat for the appropriate Monk School as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the Diamond Soul ability of the regular monk.

17th: Master. Receive the Master feat for the appropriate Monk School as a bonus feat. This benefit replaces the Tongue of Sun and Moon ability of the regular monk (Timeless body is still gained as normal) Yeah...again, I'd rather not swap out Class Features for Feats. Also, creating a "Standard" is kinda hard at this stage, as I'm not sure where all the School Feats will go yet. They all may find different uses for different existing Class Feature. New Class Features that have better synergy with each Style would be a great final outcome, though.
I'd say the first question is what role should they play? Anticaster? Mobile striker? Once you've decided that, you can give them abilities to assist in that role. Very good point. I suppose that I should get that straight first, and then craft the Feats to match. As it is now, I'm just rolling with whatever inspiration I get.

What do you think was the intention behind each Fighting Style (ignoring the level of success in meeting that goal)?

Okizruin
2011-07-21, 08:14 PM
Technically, you can only have a Vorpal effect on a Slashing Weapon, so Unarmed Strikes would normally be ineligible (though there is probably a few ways around this effect). Assuming you found a way to do Slashing damage with your Unarmed Strikes, Vorpal requires a Caster Level of 18, so you couldn't manifest the ability until 18th level.

There is in fact a feat in PHB2 called "Versatile Unarmed Strike". Its only requirement is Improved Unarmed Strike, it lets you choose what type of damage (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) you can do with your unarmed strikes.

Adamantrue
2011-07-21, 08:24 PM
Not surprised. However, a Vorpal Unarmed Strike at level 18 isn't really that bad.

[edit]

Adding another item.

Ring: Precious Mettle
Price: 25,000 gp
Body Slot: Ring
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate Abjuration
Activation: -
Weight: -
Forged of cold iron, this unimpressive ring offers unique protection against certain types of magic. It is a counterpart to the Ring of Evasion.
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had Mettle. Whenever she makes a Fortitude or Will saving throw to determine whether she is subject to half or part of the effect, a successful save results in no effect.

Adamantrue
2011-07-22, 11:49 PM
Disciple of the Invisible Eye [School]
You continue your training in the Invisible Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#invisibleEye) fighting style.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +4, Invisible Eye bonus ability
Benefit: The Cobra Strike Disciple feat enables the use of the following three abilities.
Danger's Whisper: You may make a Listen check in place of an Initiative check.
Deceive the Eye: With a swift action, you can become invisible, as the invisibility spell. The effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn. This is a supernatural ability.
Sense the Unseen: You become attuned to perceiving the world through sound alone, if needed. You gain Blindsight out to 30 ft, and can no longer be flanked.

Invisible Eye Mastery [School]
You have mastered the disciplines of the Invisible Eye fighting style.
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye Disciple, Abundant Step
Benefit: The Invisible Eye Mastery feat enables the use of the following three abilities.
Betray the Eye: With a swift action, you can become invisible, as the greater invisibility spell. The effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn. This is a supernatural ability.
Sense the Unseen: As Sense the Unseen, but you gain Blindsight out to 90 ft.
Evade the Sensibilities: You come very close to coming up with a third idea, but avoid it with a failed Listen check...

Something like that. I think I'm a little trapped by my own format here, so I probably need to take a step back and reprocess. A fresher approach may be helpful.

eftexar
2011-07-22, 11:56 PM
These... seem awfully powerful for feats, especially considering the fact they grant multiple bonuses. May I suggest that instead of offering them as feats you allow monks to take one or two of them as paths (or extra abilities), either as alternate class features or in addition to the normal features?

deuxhero
2011-07-23, 01:25 AM
It's called a "tactical" feet. It was realized REALLY early that feets that do one thing are boring and lead to characters that at best do one thing well. Also: It's MONK, you have to try to break them.

Adamantrue
2011-07-23, 01:26 AM
Yeah...the more I play around with these (and the more frustrated I get), the more I think that for at least some of these, it would be a better approach. If people keep mentioning it, there is probably something to at least consider.

[edit]

I don't know if these really qualify as Tactical Feats. They tend to require relatively specific conditions (even if they can be common). These do seem a bit general in their application.

Andorax
2011-07-25, 01:24 PM
Didn't realize you wanted all of your school-feats to be three-bonus granting feats. There's nothing wrong with that, I was just presenting an option (since coming up with that many bonuses for each school could be a difficult challenge).


As far as the substitution level thing is concerned, feel free to toss that if you don't care for it. I was just trying to provide an ALTERNATE means of getting the school feats without spending your limited feat slots. The "front half" of a specialty monk is already going to look fairly similar due to the feats you have to take to get the school. If you're burning multiple feats in the "back half" of the class to get those benefits, you start to get a clone-effect problem.

At least...that was my reasoning. I still really like the concept.


And I'd like to still say that the minimum-skill thing is strongly recommended, since it does two important things:

1) It gets around the often-discouraged "class feature X" pre-requisite, while still allowing a convenient minimum-level tie in (it also lets those who aren't going the Substitution Level route the ability to get them but still do a Monk PrC at the same time).

2) It maintains the idea that each school is associated with a specific skill.

Adamantrue
2011-07-26, 11:07 AM
Cobra Strike Disciple [School]
You continue your training in the Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) fighting style.
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability, Improved Evasion
Benefit: The Cobra Strike Disciple feat enables the use of the following three abilities.
Elusive Dance of the Serpent: Once per turn as an immediate action, you may negate a single attack roll made by the target of your Dodge feat. You make an Escape Artist check, with the DC equal to your opponentís attack roll. If you succeed, the attacker provokes an Attack of Opportunity from you.
Hundred Viper Strike: When making a Spring Attack against the target of your Dodge feat, you may choose to make your attack a full attack. You may choose to use Flurry of Blows or Greater Flurry during this special Spring Attack.
Flow of Venom: You may use Quivering Palm once per day instead of once per week. Additionally, a missed attempt no longer counts as a use of this ability.

Cobra Strike Mastery [School]
You have mastered the disciplines of the Cobra Strike fighting style.
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike Disciple, Quivering Palm
Benefit: The Cobra Strike Mastery feat enables the use of the following three abilities.
Eyes of the Serpent: You become attuned to perceiving the world with your other senses, most notably through vibration and smell. You gain Blindsight out to 60 ft, and can no longer be flanked.
Graceful Dance of the Serpent: As Elusive Dance of the Serpent, but it no longer requires an immediate action, and as such you can use the ability more than once per turn.
Coiled Stance: To use this ability, you must be fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise while making a full attack, and must not choose to use Flurry of Blows or Greater Flurry. If you do, your Quivering Palmís save DC increases to 10 + your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier. Alright, let's assume people like these abilities for a Cobra Strike Monk.

To establish a better template & balance things out properly, you think maybe we could split these up into one Feat, and some Alternate Class Features, and it would do the job? What's worth swapping out for what?

Also, back to the quoted abilities...are these decent ideas?

jiriku
2011-07-26, 03:24 PM
Cobra Strike Disciple is far too powerful to be available at such a relatively low level. My specific concern is that
a) Elusive Dance of the Serpent is borderline broken, allowing you to completely shut down any opponent that makes only one attack per turn (which is almost everyone who attacks you in melee, if you're using Spring Attack and remaining mobile). You can do this with no chance of failure, regardless of the opponent's level or skill.
b) Hundred Viper Strike is an offensive powerhouse, completely rehabilitating the Spring Attack feat. It's good enough to be worth a feat on its own.

I'd suggest you either nerf Elusive Dance or both nerf it and break it out as a separate feat. The ability to automatically say "no" to an attacker once per round without chance of failure is a T1-type ability that easily break encounters when used in combo with other abilities.


Cobra Strike Mastery is similarly top-heavy for a single feat, but less so since it requires more investment. Graceful Dance of the Serpent is again a broken-ish ability that makes you completely immune to one opponent per round unless that opponent has a way to harm you without making attack rolls (many don't). The tarrasque could not harm you once you had this ability.

Adamantrue
2011-07-28, 04:33 PM
I can easily agree with the majority of what you're saying. When I first started this, ideas were kinda just coming, and I was putting them down without really taking a good look at them. Matter of fact, until I asked in that last post, I just looked at it hard like that, which is what prompted me to ask.

Elusive & Graceful Dance of the Serpent: There are a few ways this could be nerfed. My preferred choice right now being to half the damage instead of negating the attack. I think dropping the Attack of Opportunity would be a good idea too, especially since you can still get that from other sources (Karmic Strike, Hold the Line, Sidestep Charge, etc). It also doesn't completely negate things like Trip or Grapples.

Hundred Viper Strike: I think this would be a prime candidate for swapping in as an ACF, taking it out of the Feat equation entirely. I still think it fits in with the theme well, though.

Leaving Coiled Stance, Eyes of the Serpent, and Flow of Venom as a single School Feat, maybe tying it in with Quivering Palm as a Prerequisite (as well as 18 ranks of Escape Artist), and having the 2 Dances of the Serpent & Hundred Viper Strike as the ACFs seems like it'd be best.

So...which abilities should be swapped out?

No one likes Slow Fall, so changing that out for a Dance of the Serpent progression could be pretty neat (once per round at 1st level, +1 at 5th, 10th, and 15th, then all attacks at 20th, all halving the damage against your Dodge opponent).

I think getting Hundred Viper Strike soon after Spring Attack seems to be required, so it can't be long after 6th (8th is actually my preference). But there aren't any abilities nearby I'm interested in swapping out. Maybe pushing some back, and using them to bump out something else?

Adamantrue
2011-08-05, 03:42 AM
OK, let's try this as some Monk ACFs for the Cobra Strike fighting style.

Dance of the Serpent
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: As an immediate action, you may reduce the damage of a single attack made by the target of your Dodge feat. You make an Escape Artist check, with the DC equal to your opponentís attack roll. If you succeed, the damage from that attack is halved (rounding down).
If the attack also requires you to make opposed rolls (such as a bull rush or trip), you may oppose it with an Escape Artist check.

Eyes of the Serpent
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You become attuned to perceiving the world with your other senses, most notably through vibration and smell. You gain Blindsense out to 60 ft.
Eyes of the Serpent is an extraordinary ability.

Hundred Viper Strike
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: When making a Spring Attack against the target of your Dodge feat, you may choose to make your attack a full attack. You may choose to use Flurry of Blows during this special Spring Attack.

Coiled Stance
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Cobra Strike bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: To use this ability, you must be fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise while making a full attack, and must not choose to use Flurry of Blows. If you do, your Quivering Palmís save DC increases to 10 + your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier.

If people like this approach better, I can try moving on to the next Fighting Style.

Adamantrue
2011-08-05, 11:19 PM
Let's try this as some Monk ACFs for the Invisible Eye fighting style.

Sense the Unseen
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: You become attuned to perceiving the world through sound alone, if needed. You gain Blindsight out to distance equal to your land speed.

Danger's Whisper
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You may make a Listen check in place of an Initiative check.

Deceive the Eye
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: With a swift action, you can become invisible, as the invisibility spell. The effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
You may use this ability three times per day, plus one per monk level after 11th. Deceive the eye is a supernatural ability.

Betray the Eye
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Invisible Eye bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: When using Deceive the Eye, spells and abilities that can normally reveal invisible opponents (such as Blindsight, true seeing or faerie fire) do not reveal you.
Betray the Eye is a supernatural ability.

What do people think of this set-up?

eftexar
2011-08-06, 12:33 AM
I think this set-up works much better. I think it keeps the flavor of the monk better than they did as feats, especially with the type of abilities they are (and how well they fit together). Not only that but they definitely improve the monk (which was needed), while still leaving your feat slots open.

Adamantrue
2011-08-06, 06:35 PM
It does seem to be an improved approach, but I wonder about the qualities of these ACFs I'm listing.

Denying Stance Alternate Class Features:

Avoid and Counter
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using the Combat Expertise feat, a melee attack by an opponent that misses provokes a special Attack of Opportunity. You may only make a grapple or disarm attempt against that opponent when using this ability.

Widening the Stance
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, you may choose to be treated as one size category larger as an immediate action, and revert to your original size as a free action. This is an extraordinary ability.
Widening the Stance grants you a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity, and a -1 size penalty to attacks and AC. Your space and reach increases by 5 ft. This effect stacks with any other effect that increases a characterís size (such as enlarge person).

Acrobatic Denial
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: When attempting to grapple an opponent that is under the effect of freedom of movement or similar ability, you may make a special Tumble check as an immediate action to negate its effects for the purpose of your grapple only. The DC is equal to 10 + level of the spell + the casterís relevant ability score, and the effect lasts until the start of your next turn.
You may also use a Tumble check to oppose an Escape Artist attempt to get out of a grapple or pin.

Disarming Strike
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, you may make a free disarm attempt whenever you make a successful melee attack.

Adamantrue
2011-08-08, 12:22 PM
Sleeping Tiger Alternate Class Features:

Power and Grace
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: Whenever your Dexterity modifier or your Strength modifier would be applied to a dice roll, you may add both together to determine the bonus. This includes (but is not limited to) attack and damage rolls, Reflex saves, initiative, skill checks, and opposed rolls.
You gain a natural armor bonus to your AC equal to your Strength modifier.

[INSERT NAME HERE]
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You may use Power Attack with light & thrown weapons, except one-half the number you subtract from attack rolls is added to the damage rolls of those weapons instead. You still get the full amount with your unarmed strikes.

Tiger's Pounce
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Hidden Tiger
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Sleeping Tiger bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: As a swift action, you may make a special feint attempt using Hide instead of Bluff. Your opponent may oppose it with either Sense Motive or Spot.

Anyone got a good idea for a name?

Adamantrue
2011-08-16, 07:32 AM
I'm kinda wishing I was getting more feedback on these, as I keep going on to each of the styles. It would suck if this needed to be reworked, and all this was a waste.

Then again, I'm enjoying this.

Passive Way Alternate Class Features:

Practiced Feint
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: Add one-half your Monk level to your Bluff or Sense Motive checks when making or opposing a Feint.

Cleverly Mislead
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise, you may apply a bonus to Feint and Trip checks equal to the penalty you take to attack rolls.

Greater Feint
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: You may Feint in combat as a swift action.
In addition, you do not have a penalty to Feint checks against nonhumanoids, only take a -4 penalty against creatures of animal intelligence, and may attempt a Feint against nonintelligent foes with a -8 penalty.

Supreme Feint
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Passive Way bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: If you make a successful Feint check, your opponent is denied their Dexterity bonus until the beginning of your next turn.
In addition, you do not have a penalty to Feint checks against creatures of animal intelligence, and may attempt a Feint against nonintelligent foes with a -4 penalty.

And another Feat:

Additional Training [General]
Practice has taught you how to use a wider variety of weapons more effectively.
Prerequisites: Monk level 1st
Benefit: You may treat the club, dagger, handaxe, and javelin as special Monk weapons. This means you can use them to make a Flurry of Blows.

Adamantrue
2011-08-19, 12:21 PM
I was wondering if, in addition to the new ACFs & Class Features, I should add a rule about combining styles.

Let me explain. You choose to be Human, and select both Denying Stance & Passive Way as your Fighting Styles . You use your 1st level Feat and your Bonus Feat for being human to get Improved Grapple & Combat Reflexes, and take Combat Expertise as your Bonus Feat. At 2nd, you already have Combat Reflexes, so you take Improved Trip as your Bonus Feat. 3rd, you take Improved Disarm, and at 6th, you take Skill Focus (Bluff), and Improved Feint as your Bonus Feat.

Having done that (and assuming appropriate Skill selection), you meet the criteria for both bonus abilities (as well as the Skill bonuses), and qualify for any of the ACFs I've listed for those two Styles. They could trade to Practiced Feint at 9th, Widening the Stance & Greater Feint at 11th, and Disarming Strike at 17th.

I'm sure that you could find methods to combine other styles (even without being Human or using Flaws). But would that be a bad idea?

[edit]

Another Combo: Overwhelming Attack & Sleeping Tiger
Requires: Human, Fighter 1st, Swashbuckler 1st, or Flaw
1st: Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative
2nd: Improved Bull Rush
3rd: Improved Sunder
6th: Improved Overrun, 1 Feat Free

Adamantrue
2011-10-06, 04:19 PM
I'm back to this again...with some possible Hand and Foot Alternate Class Features:

Sure-Footed Stance
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: Whenever an opponent attempts to Bull Rush or Trip you, you may make a Balance check in place of a Dexterity or Strength check to resist the attempt.

Stunning Opportunist
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You may wait until after the attack roll is made before you declare the use of your Stunning Fist feat. This ability may only be used during your turn.

Whirlwind Trip
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: As a full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one trip attack against each opponent within reach. You forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Supreme Deflection
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Hand and Foot bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this ability. Once per round when you would normally be hit with an unusually massive ranged weapon or ranged attack generated by spell effects, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

Adamantrue
2011-12-03, 09:16 AM
Been a while here, eh? Never really gave up on this either. Let's try this as some Monk ACFs for the Overwhelming Attack fighting style.

Focused K'ihap
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Overwhelming Attack bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: With a successful melee attack with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon, you may make attempt to demoralize your opponent as a swift action. You may add a bonus to the check equal to any penalty you've taken to your attacks with the Power Attack feat.

Practiced Form
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Overwhelming Attack bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: You may use a Perform check in place of an Intimidate check when demoralizing an opponent.

Channeled Strike
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Overwhelming Attack bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: When using Power Attack with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon, you instead at twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls to your damage rolls.

Ancestor Rush
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Overwhelming Attack bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: When you successfully perform a bull rush, if you do not move your opponent up to the limit of your movement rate, you may make an overrun attempt as an immediate action, but at a -8 penalty. If you succeed, your total movement for the round may still not exceed your movement rate.

I'm really unsure of the wording of this last set, as it seems to be a little confusing. I know how it works, but I'm not confident I explained it well.