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View Full Version : [3.5 Core] Fixing the Druid, take 2 (PEACH)



Yitzi
2011-07-18, 04:32 PM
My last try seems to have missed quite a few things, so rather than just editing it, I'll repost the new version:

As before, the goal is to depower druids to tier 3. So here goes:

Changes to the class as a whole:

At third level, a druid must choose between a full-power animal companion and wildshape.
If the druid chooses a full-power animal companion, she loses wildshape in all its forms.
If the druid chooses wildshape, her druid level for purposes of her animal companion is permanently considered to be level 2 for purposes of her animal companion ability, but she gains wildshape normally. Furthermore, she immediately gains the ability to use wildshape 1/day for a duration of 1 hour (small animals only); this ability is replaced at level 5 by the normal wildshape.


Fixing Wildshape:

1. If a wildshape form has a physical ability score higher than the druid's normal score (excluding enhancement bonuses), the difference is an enhancement bonus. (Thus, it does not stack with items or spells.) If the new form has a lower score, the new score replaces the old score.
2. There are no wild shields. (If extending this to non-core, there are also no wild clasps.)
3. Natural Spell can only be used with druid spells.


Fixing Animal companions:

1. If the animal companion is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, it the druid must spend a move action to handle it or a standard action to push it. (Rationale: This means that in order to use an animal to full effectiveness (i.e. human-level tactics) in combat, the druid will generally need to spend some actions. This probably wouldn't be enough with non-Core buffs allowed, but with just Core (and Shapechange fixed as below) it should reduce even a level 20 druid's companion to an acceptable level.)
2. No, you may not choose your animal companion's feats, any more than you could choose the feats of any other NPC.
3. Share Spells can only be done with druid spells.


Fixing spells:

-Spike Growth, Spike Stones, and Wall of Thorns all have 1-minute casting times. (Otherwise, they're just way too powerful as battlefield control.)
-Winds created by Control Winds have a Fortitude DC either equal to 10+spell level+caster’s key ability score (like a spell) or the DC to resist such a wind if it occurs naturally (as by the table on page 95 of the DMG), whichever is less. When the spell creates a tornado, its size is limited to a size of 50’ radius for every 3 levels.
-When Fire Seeds is used to create bombs, each casting of the spell has a different command word (not under your control, but known to you). It is therefore impossible to set off more than 8 bombs at once.
-Spells shared with wizards (especially Shapechange) are fixed; I posted my plan for those here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725).


Thoughts?

erikun
2011-07-18, 07:50 PM
A ranger with only Wildshape (and limited Wildshape at that) is tier 3, so it will be very difficult to nerf the druid's spell list to the point to enter T3 without completely neutering it.

The Wildshape nerf seems fair enough. I'm not sure that +4 Strength will matter all that much when it hits 40+, although it may help. Removing the Wild properity, especially to clasps, is more significant.

The druid's animal companion is about as relevant at 20th level as your average unbuffed fighter, or any melee-centric character for that matter. It matters far more at lower levels, where it provides another body and another set of actions. Requiring the druid to spend actions to get it to attack is a good mitigating feature, although I note that we're looking at spending a move action for it to attack and spending a standard action for the druid to attack as well.

Arguably, the player may choose feats for other NPCs as well, especially ones related to their character.

You certainly do love nerfing walls, although I'm not sure why Wall of Thorns is considered so overpowering. Talking is a free action, so simply rattling off a dozen command words is just as easy as saying one. (unless you rule that "A B C D E F G" is beyond the limits of a free action) I don't think you even touched on the most abusive of the druid's spell list, beyond the various walls, so I doubt there is much of a nerf here. It certainly would not be enought to drop the class down to Tier-3, as you indicated you wanted in the previous thread.

Yitzi
2011-07-18, 08:31 PM
A ranger with only Wildshape (and limited Wildshape at that) is tier 3, so it will be very difficult to nerf the druid's spell list to the point to enter T3 without completely neutering it.

Not really. Tier 3 is funny, in that it covers everything with too much versatility to be a tier 4 but not enough power to be a tier 2. A wildshape ranger gets tier 3 due to the sheer versatility given by wildshape, but to get past tier 3 you need more than versatility.

Also, a druid has some disadvantages as compared to a ranger, namely not getting all those Hide bonuses and (with the fix) not being as strong in melee. Of course, he does have spellcasting, but whereas the ranger is the best hiding class out there (among core base classes) the druid's spells tend to be somewhat on the weak side (they've got great endurance and versatility, but tend to be weaker than the wizard's options in firepower and weaker than the cleric's in healing.)


The Wildshape nerf seems fair enough. I'm not sure that +4 Strength will matter all that much when it hits 40+, although it may help.

How's he going to hit 40+ without enhancement bonuses?


Removing the Wild properity, especially to clasps, is more significant.

Armor can still have it, but nothing else.


The druid's animal companion is about as relevant at 20th level as your average unbuffed fighter, or any melee-centric character for that matter.

Making fighters stronger and wizards weaker is a separate point.


It matters far more at lower levels, where it provides another body and another set of actions.

At lower levels, the druid's somewhat low on firepower anyway, so that's not such a big problem.


Requiring the druid to spend actions to get it to attack is a good mitigating feature, although I note that we're looking at spending a move action for it to attack and spending a standard action for the druid to attack as well.

Yes, but that keeps the druid from maneuvering.

Also, the druid doesn't have to spend a move action every turn, just when he wants his ally to change targets, or maneuver, or do something unanimal-like like not being distracted by summons.


Arguably, the player may choose feats for other NPCs as well, especially ones related to their character.

Nope, no source indicates that they can. The most they can do is suggest. Which you can't really do very well with an animal.


You certainly do love nerfing walls

They need it.


although I'm not sure why Wall of Thorns is considered so overpowering.

You can't move in it without a strength check of at least 25; that's well beyond many characters, and difficult even for others. That makes it very good for combat control.
When you try to move in it, successful or not, you take substantial damage. So if it takes you 20 rounds to get out (quite possible even with a +8 strength modifier, assuming you're in the center as it's made, you'd better have some good armor or you're not going to make it out.)
It lasts a long time, and cannot be easily gotten rid of. So anyone who's trapped in it is out of the battle.


Talking is a free action, so simply rattling off a dozen command words is just as easy as saying one.

Nope; command words are standard actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm).


I don't think you even touched on the most abusive of the druid's spell list

So what did I miss?

erikun
2011-07-18, 09:09 PM
Also, the druid doesn't have to spend a move action every turn, just when he wants his ally to change targets, or maneuver, or do something unanimal-like like not being distracted by summons.
Commanding an animal to attack is a trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm). If you instead say that having an animal companion attack is not a skill trick, then I fail to see why they would spend an action at any point, given they never need to handle or push their companion.


Nope; command words are standard actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm).
By that logic, you cannot set off multiple sets of Fire Seeds anyways, even if they all have the same command word - it requires a seperate standard action for each. Your fix seems to be more of a clarification than anything else.


So what did I miss?
Entangle - save or suck
Faerie Fire - auto-lose invisibility/miss chance
Summon Nature’s Ally - massive action economy boost
Poison - looks like nasty CON damage
Stone Shape - walk through walls!
Freedom of Movement - immunity to grapple/terrain
Rusting Grasp - 100% sunder touch attack
Baleful Polymorph - save or die
True Seeing - illusion immunity
Repel Metal or Stone - no save, just go away
Reverse Gravity - no save, just go away
Whirlwind - save or be useless
Shapechange - Shapechange

I will admit, I am not as familiar with the Druid's spell list as I am with other spellcasters. As such, I may have missed some good ones.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-18, 09:17 PM
I don't understand how you expect to fix the druid or keep it below tier 2 when you're not changing the summon nature's ally list at all. You gain the ability to call a whole sleuth of bears, or a creature that flies to transport, or a scout, or a trap-springer, for a full-round action, and you can do it spontaneously.

Me, I don't mind any of this, it all makes the druid great, but if you're trying to nerf the druid, you need to look at it's summon power

Yitzi
2011-07-18, 10:47 PM
Commanding an animal to attack is a trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm). If you instead say that having an animal companion attack is not a skill trick, then I fail to see why they would spend an action at any point, given they never need to handle or push their companion.

Because commanding an animal to attack is handling it, but once you do so it'll continue to attack without having to be commanded every round.


By that logic, you cannot set off multiple sets of Fire Seeds anyways, even if they all have the same command word - it requires a seperate standard action for each. Your fix seems to be more of a clarification than anything else.

Probably true.


Entangle - save or suck

It's not such a big penalty, and possible to get out of (and of course Freedom of Movement counters it at higher levels)...it's a useful spell, but it doesn't really seem overpowered or otherwise a tier-2 spell.


Faerie Fire - auto-lose invisibility/miss chance

I see that more as "helps make invisibility/concealment not broken" than "is broken".


Summon Nature’s Ally - massive action economy boost

Only if you have a use for a lot of weak actions.


Poison - looks like nasty CON damage

Quite nasty. But nothing Delay Poison won't counter, and quite manageable for many classes (especially if they use antitoxin.) Definitely a good spell, not a broken one.


Stone Shape - walk through walls!

Well, if it's allowed to work on parts of objects (since the whole wall is more than 10 ft.+1 ft./level), and the walls aren't important to holding up a roof under you (as they often are in dungeons), and they weren't built to keep out mid-to-high level characters (as then they'd have stuff like multiple stones (not all targetable with one spell) or an iron wall embedded inside.)


Freedom of Movement - immunity to grapple/terrain

And how often is that a serious concern? Grapple-only monsters are pretty rare.


Rusting Grasp - 100% sunder touch attack

Provokes an AoO, is a waste of actions against mooks, is a waste of loot against bosses, and many enemies don't have weapons to sunder.


Baleful Polymorph - save or die

Addressed in the wizard fix I linked, since it's a wizard spell too.


True Seeing - illusion immunity

Makes illusions less powerful, doesn't make the spell broken.


Repel Metal or Stone - no save, just go away

It's also level 8 (about the right level for a no-save effect) and only affects a line (meaning it's usually possible to go around it.) And doesn't help against monsters that use natural weapons (of which there are a lot.)


Reverse Gravity - no save, just go away

Except you do get a save to hold on, and it's countered by a level 3 spell.


Whirlwind - save or be useless

Also a standard action to control, and at a level where that's nothing special. And only "save or be useless" against medium or smaller enemies, which at level 15 makes it somewhat of a niche spell.


Shapechange - Shapechange

Explicitly mentioned as needing to be fixed; I didn't post the fix here because I fixed it elsewhere and linked that here.

Your list seems to be a mix of situational spells (such as those useful only against humanoid-type monsters), spells that I did fix in the linked fix, and spells that are quite useful (often because they block other spells) but not broken.


I don't understand how you expect to fix the druid or keep it below tier 2 when you're not changing the summon nature's ally list at all. You gain the ability to call a whole sleuth of bears, or a creature that flies to transport, or a scout, or a trap-springer, for a full-round action, and you can do it spontaneously.

Because the ability to spontaneously summon a group of animals that you can easily beat single-handedly isn't really all that powerful.

In order to summon a sizable group (say, 1d4+1) of black bears, you need a level 4 spell. That means you're at least level 7. So what are those 2-5 bears going to do against a CR 7 enemy that's so overpowered for spending your top spell?
Stuff like transports or scouts aren't more than tier-3 material...and if you plan on making decent progress summoning trapspringers is a waste of spells (even assuming there are no automatic reset traps.)

Roderick_BR
2011-07-21, 08:12 AM
By that logic, you cannot set off multiple sets of Fire Seeds anyways, even if they all have the same command word - it requires a seperate standard action for each. Your fix seems to be more of a clarification than anything else.

At least it'll save you from detonating the ones you are carrying in your backpack by accident.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-21, 01:44 PM
Blood contains metal. Most everything has blood. Thus, Repel Stone or Metal can repel the blood in someone's body. Or at least I think that would happen, given the name.

Yitzi
2011-07-21, 04:10 PM
Blood contains metal. Most everything has blood. Thus, Repel Stone or Metal can repel the blood in someone's body. Or at least I think that would happen, given the name.

Nope, those tiny tiny fragments of metallic iron and the like are not separate objects and do not constitute a large enough portion of the creature's body to be pushed back.

That's really a question of rules lawyering which can be dealt with on the spot by a DM ruling, though, not a matter that really needs a class fix.