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eftexar
2011-07-30, 12:41 AM
Magus (3.5)
This class was inspired by the discussions in the Tier 1 Magic User-Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209397) thread.

Abilities: Your most important ability scores are charisma and intelligence. Your intelligence affects the effectiveness (or saves) of your spells, while charisma determines whether or not you can cast a spell as well as your mana regeneration. Constitution and dexterity can also help you, for survival.

Organization: A magus may have learned magic on his own and so had little reason to join a group. Alternatively he may have studied under a mentor or even at a school.

Alignment: The raw power of magic chooses no sides. A magus may be of any alignment.

Religion: Magus often worship gods of knowledge or power.

Background: A magus often has a reputation due to his often-times flashy magic. If he doesn't his work is probably less than scrupulous.

Races: Any race may be a magus, although elves, with their natural knack for it, are the most likely.

Other Classes: A magus will get along with most spellcasters, but might consider himself superior when compared to non-magic users. This ego could create enemies.

Role: A magus may fill different roles dependent on the spells he chooses to learn, but in general is either a blaster or party support.

Class Features

Hit Die: d4

Starting Gold: 3d4 x 10

Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points: 2 + int

{table=head] Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Refx Save | Will Save | Special | Max Spell Level | Spells Known | Spell Points | Mana
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2| Spellcasting, Mana | 1 | 3 | 3 | 2
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3| Bonus Feat, Recharge | 1 | 4 | 4 | 3
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Spontaneous Slot | 1 | 5 | 4 | 4
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4| ??? | 1 | 6 | 6 | 4
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4| Specialization | 2 | 7 | 6 | 5
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5| Minor Arcana, Bonus Feat | 2 | 8 | 6 | 6
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5| Arcane Spontaneity | 3 | 9 | 6 | 6
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6| Relearning | 3 | 10 | 9 | 7
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6| Specialization | 4 | 11 | 9 | 8
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7| Bonus Feat | 4 | 12 | 9 |8
11th|+5|+3|+3|+7| Spontaneous Slot | 5 | 13 | 15 | 9
12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8| Minor Arcana, Relearning | 5 | 14 | 15 | 10
13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8| Specialization | 6 | 15 | 15 | 10
14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9| Spelltouched, Bonus Feat | 6 | 16 | 15 | 11
15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9| Arcane Spontaneity | 7 | 17 | 21 | 12
16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10| Relearning | 7 | 18 | 21 | 12
17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10| Major Arcana, Specialization | 7 | 18 | 21 | 13
18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11| Major Arcana, Bonus Feat | 7 | 18 | 21 | 14
19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11| Major Arcana, Spontaneous Slot | 7 | 18 | 21 | 14
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12| Master Arcana | 7 | 18 | 21 | 15
[/table]

Weapons and Armor Proficiencies: You do not gain proficiency with any weapons. You are also not proficient with armor or with any shields, as they may interfere with your spellcasting.

Class Abilities

Spellcasting
You acquire the ability to cast spells. The save DC for any spell is 10 + 1/2 level + intelligence modifier. These spells are arcane in nature and, if they have somatic or material components, are subject to arcane spell failure. Some may also be subject to spell resistence.
You know a number of spells equal to that listed under the spells known (see chart) for your magus level. These spells are chosen from the Magus spell list (see next post) and may be of a spell level no higher than your max spell level (see chart). To cast a spell you must also have a charisma score of 10 + the spells level. You may learn spells that you are unable to cast (so that you may be able to cast them later).
In order to cast a spell that you know you must expend spell points (see chart). You do not continue to gain spell points in epic levels. You recover 1 spell point per round (up to your maximum, and yes even when out of combat). Spell point costs by spell level are as follows:
{table=head]Spell Level | Spell Point Cost
0 | 0
1 | 1
2 | 3
3 | 5
4 | 7
5 | 9
6 | 11
7 | 13
8* | 15
9* | 17
[/table]
*8th and 9th levels spells are not earned through normal spell acquisition


Metamagic
When applying a metamagic feat to a spell you do not increase its level (unless it is an effect such as heightened spell). Instead (if it wasn't like heightened spell) you increase the spell point cost of the spell by 3 x the level the metamagic feat would have added. Any metamagic feat that isn't labeled as a magus feat, is considered 1 level higher than that actually listed for this purpose.
Additionally adding more than one metamagic feat has a mana cost. Adding a second metamagic feat requires the use of 2 mana. Each metamagic feat added after this doubles that mana cost.
What level a metamagiced spell is and what level of spells you can cast does not affect what metamagic feats you can apply to what spells.

Casting Defensively
The concentration check for casting defensively has been changed to 15 + the BAB (for physical) or Caster Level (for magic) of the subject who instigated the check (this excludes modifiers only including the bab listed on the chart or the spellcasting levels a player has) + the spell level

Mana
You may enhance any spell while casting it by using mana (as listed in each individual spell). You have mana as listed on the chart above. You recover 1 mana or your charisma modifier each round (whichever is higher), but no higher than half your magus level or 1 (whichever is higher).

Lv2 > Recharge:
As a fullround action, that provokes attacks of opportunity, you may recover 2 spell points (in addition to the normal 1). You must make a concentration check in any situation that would interrupt a spell to use this (as if this were a 3rd level spell) or it fails to function.

Lv2, 6, 10, 14, 18 > Bonus Feat:
At each level indicated you gain a new feat. You may choose any metamagic feat, any item creation feat, any magus feat, any spelltouched feat, combat casting, eschew materials, improved counterspell, magical aptitude, spell focus, greater spell focus, spell mastery, spell penetration, or greater spell penetration. You must still meet all prerequisites for these extra feats.

Lv3, 11, 19 > Spontaneous Slot:
At each level indicated you gain a spontaneous slot. After 8 hours of rest you may choose any spell from the Magus list that you qualify for, for each spontaneous slot you possess. You may cast those spells until the next time you choose spontaneous slots again. These spells still require spell points to cast as normal.

Lv4 > ???:
????

Lv5, 9, 13, 17 > Specialization:
At level 5 choose a single school of spells. You reduce the spell point cost of all spells in that school by 1, to a minimum of 1.
At level 9 you increase the DCs of all spells that are within the school your chose at level 5 by +1.
At level 13 you may choose a single spell within the school you selected at level 5. You may cast it intelligence modifier times at no spell point cost, at which point these free castings are expended until you next rest for 8 hours.
At level 17 the spell you chose at level 13 has its save DC increased by +1.

Lv6, 12 > Minor Arcana:
At level 6, spells of level one no longer cost spells points. At level 12 this also expands to include second level spells.
Epic Note: This ability does not continue to expand into epic levels.

Lv7, 15 > Arcane Spontaneity:
You gain the ability to spontaneously cast any spell from the magus spell list once per day without knowing it. You must expend spell points as normal to cast it. At level 15 you may do this twice per day.

Lv8, 12, 16 > Relearning:
At each level indicated you may swap out any spell you have learned for a new spell learned. This new spell may be of any level lower than the highest level you can cast.

Lv14 > Spelltouched:
You acquire the use of a single spell permanently as a supernatural ability. It may be ended or restarted as a standard action. It may not be altered by magus feats, metamagic feats, or mana expenditure. Choose one of the spells from the following list:
-> will insert list when done with spells.

Lv17, 18, 19 > Major Arcana:
At each of the indicated levels choose a single 8th level spell. You now know that spell and may cast it. You may learn this spell even if you max spell level is lower than 8. This ability does not grant you or lend toward the capability to acquire additional 8th level spells, unless another ability specifically lists this ability as a requirement for that purpose.
You may only cast your 8th level spells a total combined number of times each day equal to your intelligence modifier or 1 (whichever is higher), but no more than half your magus levels. These spells still cost spell points (see spellcasting).

Lv20 > Master Arcana:
Choose a single 9th level spell. You now know that spell and may cast it. You may learn this spell even if you max spell level is lower than 9. This ability does not grant you or lend toward the capability to acquire additional 9th level spells, unless another ability specifically lists this ability as a requirement for that purpose.
You may only cast your 9th level spell once per day. This spell still costs spell points (see spellcasting).


Design Notes

This class is built to be a replacement for the sorcerer and wizard. Its purpose is to bring its power, hopefully, down to tier 3. The system is meant to limit the power of spells, while also penalizing the caster for going nova. It should also remove the problem of casting all of your spells in a day and becoming useless for later battles.

eftexar
2011-07-30, 12:43 AM
Spells*
Spells have been reformatted for the new system. While most things are self explanatory, there is one thing that needs be pointed out. Ray spells are no longer called ray spells, as all spells either have a range of close, medium, long, self, or touch. However there are many effects that only affect ray spells. As such you will see {Ray} after the spells type designated that this spell may be modified or affected by effects that designate that they work with rays.

Level 0


Level 1

Acid Splash
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Spell Point Cost: 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: Close (15ft + 5ft per casting modifier)
Spell Resistance: No
You fire an orb of acid that deals 1d4 points of acid damage.
Enhance: Every 2 points of mana spent increases this damage by 1d4.

Animate Rope
Transmutation
Spell Point Cost: 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: Medium (30ft + 10ft per casting modifier)
Spell Resistance: No
Except as noted here this spell remains the same as before. Concentration checks for casting spells equal 15 + 1/2 your caster level + the level of the spell they are casting. The escape artist check is equal to 15 + 1/2 your caster level.
Enhance: By expending 5 mana you may attempt to control an attended rope-like object. The attendee is entitled to a reflex save to negate.


Level 1 sp2


Level 2 sp3


Level 3

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Spell Point Cost: 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: Long (60ft + 20ft per casting modifier)
Spell Resistance: Yes
You release a bolt of flame that explodes at a point you designate in range in a 15ft spread. It deals 3d6 fire damage to all creatures in its area and to unattended objects. Firing the flame through a narrow passage (less than 3 inches in diameter) requires a ranged touch attack (or else the fireball explodes by colliding into the obstacle). This flame will light combustibles on fire, even those that are attended. It does not light items buried within a backpack or other 'packing' on fire, only surface items.
Anyone not directly at the point you designated may make a reflex save to half damage and to prevent any attended combustibles from catching fire. The target directly at the epicenter may still make a save, but only to prevent combustible from catching fire.
You may attempt to fire a fireball through barriers or objects (but not through living creatures). Any damage required to break the barrier is lost during its trajectory, with the fireball fading away if it has no damage die left.
Enhance: Every 2 points of mana spent on it increases damage by 1d6 and every 4 increase its area by 5ft.


Level 4 sp7


Level 5 sp9


Level 6

Acid Fog
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Spell Point Cost: 11
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: Medium (30ft + 10ft per casting modifier)
Spell Resistance: No
Fog billows out from the point you designate in a 20ft radius 20ft high cloud. It functions as the fog spell (except as noted within this spell) and, in addition, the fog deals 1d6 acid damage to all creatures and unattended objects within it each round. This fog lasts for 1 round per casting modifier.
Enhance: Every 4 points of mana spent on it increases damage by 1d6, its radius by 5ft, its height by 5ft, and its duration by 1 round.

Analyze Dweomer
Divination
Spell Point Cost: 11
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: Self
Spell Resistance: No
This ability remains active for 1d4 + casting modifier rounds. While it is active you may take a swift action on any round while looking at an object or creature within 15ft + 5ft per casting modifier, to discern its magical properties.
In the case of an object you learn its functions (as well as any ongoing effects) and how many charges are left; or it may return that the object is non-magical. You also gain a +4 bonus to any attempt to activate it for the next casting modifier hours (multiple bonuses of this do not stack). If the object is attended the attendee may make a will save to negate this. An intelligent item may also make a will save (in addition to the attendee if necessary). This ability fails to recognize artifacts as magic items at all.
In the case of a creature, the creature must make a will save*, or you learn the result of all ongoing magical effects.
*For any effect that is permanent the creature affected does not make save. Instead the original caster of the spell may make a will save. This does not necessarily alert that caster that you have cast this spell however.
Enhance: This ability may not be enhanced.

Antimagic Field
Abjuration
Spell Point Cost: 11
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Fullround Action
Range: Short (15ft + 5ft per casting modifier)
Spell Resistance: No
This spell lasts for 1d4 + casting modifier rounds and is created in a 20ft area at the point you designate within range. Anyone who attempts to use a magical effect (such as a spell, a spell-like ability, or a supernatural ability) from within it may make a caster check for a spell to function or a level check for a spell-like or supernatural ability to function, against a caster level check of your own. If an ongoing effect that has already been cast enters the area of antimagic, the caster is still entitled to a check (and is alerted to the antimagic field).
If someone succeeds on a check for an ability with a duration (or with an infinite duration), they needn't make another check for the duration of this antimagic field.
Magic items cease functioning, although the wielder of an item may make a swift action will save to force it to function for the next 1d4 + 1 rounds.
An antimagic field suppresses such any effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, upon a failed save but does not dispel them. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed effect’s duration.
Summoned Creatures and incorporeal undead are not affected by an antimagic field. The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting. Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected.
Any of these creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.
Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts are unaffected by magic such as this.
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.
Special: A magus who is within an antimagic field for any part of a round, does not recover spell points or mana that round.
Enhance: Every 4 points of mana spent on it increases its emanation by 5ft.

Level 7 sp13



Level 8

Antipathy
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Spell Point Cost: 15
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Fullround Action
Range: Short (15ft + 5ft per casting modifier)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Except as noted here this functions the same as the original spell on page 201 of the players handbook. It lasts for a duration of 2 hours per casting modifier (instead of per level). It affects up to a 10ft cube per casting modifier (instead of per level).
Enhancement: Every 2 points of mana spent increases its area by one 10ft cube.


Level 9 sp17



Removed Spells

Alter Self - unable to balance properly
Animal Growth - inappropriate, more druidy
Animate Dead- inappropriate, should be in the realm of clerics
Mount - inappropriate, just why..
Summon Monster spells- unable to balance properly
Phantom Steed- inappropriate, again why
Contagion - inappropriate, should be in the realm of clerics
Curses - inappropriate, should be in the realm of clerics
Undead to death - inappropriate, should be in the realm of clerics
Limited Wish - overpowered
Horrid Wilting - inappropriate, should be in the realm of clerics or druids
Wish - overpowered

*Oh and I believe I should to post this, because of the massive amount of open content material I am modifying.
All of the spells 'created' within this post are modifications of spells created by wizards of the coast. See the open game license:
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Feats
Magus Feats
Magus feats are a new type of feat that are only available to the magus. They require the magus' specific build to function properly and any attempt to use them with another spellcasting class, especially a full casting class, may turn demi-gods into gods.
Additionally Magus feats only apply to spells from the magus list, if they refer to spells. Magus metamagic feats are listed with level increases due to other conversion issues, but still must be converted as listed under magus spellcasting.

Some magus abilities require you to 'forfeit' spell points:
Some abilities temporarily lower your spell points. A forfeited spell point is lost and may not be recovered except as described here. You recover such 'forfeit' spell points by resting (as follows). 4 hours of rest recover a single forfeit spell point and for each hour of rest beyond the first 4 hours you recover an additional forfeited spell point. If you also have forfeited mana, it does not affect the rate at which you recover spell points.
Some magus abilities require you to 'forfeit' mana:
Some abilities temporarily lower your mana. A forfeited point of mana is lost and may not be recovered except as described here. You recover such 'forfeit' mana by resting (as follows). 4 hours of rest recover a single forfeited point of mana and for each hour of rest beyond the first 4 hours you recover an additional forfeited point of mana.If you also have forfeited spell points, it does not affect the rate at which you recover mana.

*The 'forfeit' idea was spawned from Re'ozul's Breaking the Limit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211961) ability

Spell Burn [Magus]
When applying a metamagic feat to a spell you may ignore the mana and spell point cost it creates. In order to do so however you must 'forfeit' a 2 spell points. See the magus feats section for a description on 'forfeit' spell points.

Mana Burn [Magus]
When applying a metamagic feat to a spell you may ignore the mana and spell point cost it creates. In order to do so however you must 'forfeit' 1 point of mana. See the magus feats section for a description on 'forfeit' mana.

Spell Burn [Magus]
When applying a metamagic feat to a spell you may ignore the mana and spell point cost it creates. In order to do so however you must 'forfeit' 1 spell point. See the magus feats section for a description on 'forfeit' spell points.

Mana Generation [Magus]
You may 'forfeit' 1 spell point to recover 5 points of mana as a swift action. See the magus feats section for a description on 'forfeit' spell points. You must make a concentration check in any situation that would interrupt a spell to use this (as if this were a 3rd level spell) or it fails to function and you lose (not forfeit) 2 spellpoints without benefit.

Spellpoint Generation [Magus]
You may 'forfeit' 1 point mana to recover 5 spell points as a standard action. See the magus feats section for a description on 'forfeit' mana. You must make a concentration check in any situation that would interrupt a spell to use this (as if this were a 3rd level spell) or it fails to function and you lose (not forfeit) 2 points of mana without benefit.

Chain Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
You may apply this to any spell that is labeled as a ray. After striking its first target, it leaps to a second target of your choice within half its original range. Any durations or number of die (not pertaining to duration) are halved. This increases the spells level by 1.

Improved Chain Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Prerequisites: You must have the magus Chain Spell feat
Your may allow your chain spell may leap multiple times, but each time it leaps beyond the second it continues to half in die and duration (but not range). No target may be beyond 1.5 x the spells original range. Using this increases the spell level increase that chain spell causes by 1.

Blazing Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Whenever you cast a spell that deals fire damage, has the fire type, or has fire in its name you may apply this. Increase the spells level by 1. If your target fails their save they are lit on fire. You add your charisma modifier to any check or roll to put it out as well as to the damage it deals each round.
If the spell lacks a save it gains a reflex save to negate this effect.

Freezing Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Whenever you cast a spell that deals cold damage, has the cold type, or has ice, frost, winter, snow, freeze, or cold in its name you may apply this. Increase the spells level by 1.
If your target fails their save they are treated as if they were entangled for the next 2 rounds. If the spell lacks a save it gains a fortitude save to negate this effect.

Corrosive Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Whenever you cast a spell that deals acid damage or has acid or poison in its name you may apply this. Increase the spells level by 1.
If your target is wearing armor, their armor takes your charisma modifier as damage (that bypasses hardness) on a failed save. If the spell lacks a save it gains a reflex save to negate this effect.

Gale Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Whenever you cast a spell that has the air/wind type or has either wind or air in its name you may apply this. Increase the spells level by 1.
Your target, if you successful strike them, is subject to a bullrush using your charisma modifier instead of strength. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity and your opponent is automatically pushed the full distance. Resistances to being 'blown away' apply as well as the normal bonuses and penalties for resisting a bullrush.

Cascading Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Whenever you cast a spell that has the water type or has water in its name you may apply this. Increase the spells level by 2.
If your target fails their save, they are also stunned for 1 round. If the spell lacks a save it gains a fortitude save to negate this effect.

Shocking Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Whenever you cast a spell that deals electricity damage, has the electricity type, or has either lightning or electricity in its name you may apply this. Increase the spells level by 1.
If your target is in possession of metal items totaling more than 1/4 its weight, is in contact with at least half an inch of water, or is soaked in water then they take an extra 50% damage from your spell. This extra damage only applies to electrical damage.

Rocky Spell [Magus/Metamagic]
Whenever you cast a spell that has the earth type or has either earth, rock, stone, soil, dirt, sand or metal in its name you may apply this. Increase the spells level by 1.
Your spell deals one extra point of bludgeoning damage per die of damage it originally dealt.

Mulletmanalive
2011-07-30, 06:02 PM
My first thing to notice is that casting defensively is now farcically easy at even low levels rather than just higher levels [for us unoptimsed chaps]

The ability to cast three 9th level spells every encounter, plus however much you recharge, seems like you're actively trying to INCREASE the power of spellcasters...

wait...what?

eftexar
2011-07-30, 06:06 PM
Good point on the casting defensively check Mulletmanalive. I upped the check by 10.

As far as casting ninth level spells I don't see anywhere where it says you can cast 3 of them per an encounter. You can only cast one 9th level spell at level 20 in an encounter before having to recharge (if you want to use another spell over 6th level anytime soon). Choosing to go nova with this system could actually leave you helpless. Your recharge is a maximum of 3 points (just changed from being 4) at your highest level, so after using a ninth level spell (which costs 17 spell points), you would have to recharge twice to use another 9th level spell (possibly leaving your vulnerable for 2 rounds, or more if you fail your concentration checks to use recharge). You also have to factor in that to get the largest amount of damage you will also have to spend mana.

Oh were you are talking about the level 13 benefit of specialization. You only gain 3 charisma modifier castings at no cost and must wait until you have 8 hours of rest before you regain them (basically they are per day). - I reworded it to quell confusion and changed it to be based off of a modifier

eftexar
2011-08-22, 07:46 PM
Overhauled the whole class. Made several changes, but some of the biggest were splitting casting among the three scores and restricting access to higher level spells even more. I think the major nerf was knocking down the ability to cast one 9th level spell per an encounter to one 9th level spell per day.

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-22, 09:35 PM
A few problems:
I'm not sure if meta-magic is at all feasible under your system. A single level three spell with a single +3 meta-magic will leave you with a single point for most of the time you can actually cast it and even at lvl 20 it represents a huge investment of resources.
The way you've required multiple ability scores, while not bad in theory (maybe), comes off as both silly and a little annoying. It makes sense to split the abilities that determine skill and quantity, but to then require the third mental ability score with no apreaciable benifit (no ,the ability to actually use your class features does not count as the benifit, it's the require part) does not. It also begins to push them into mad territory (con is still something of a requirements for most people and a bit of Dex is also useful, meaning they only get to skip on strength).
This class also doesn't have much in the way of flavor (admitadly neither do wizard or sorcerer, but atleast they're powerful and people still try to prc out of them as soon as posible).

Lastly, on a rather minor note, you seem to have neglected to specify fireballs starting radius. Also, why does it do double damage to metal? I've always considered steal mildly flame-retardent.

eftexar
2011-08-22, 09:51 PM
I changed the metamagic costs and removed the use wisdom, swapping it with charisma. The third score probably was unnecessary...
My main concern is creating a lower-powered replacement for the sorcerer and wizard. I can add a bit of flavor once I get the balance down (or just let people take prestige classes). Speaking of which do you think this, judging by what I have done anyways, reaches low tier-2 / high tier 3?
The reason for fireball dealing extra damage to metal is drawn from the idea that metal is molded by heat. Added in an area.

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-22, 10:41 PM
I changed the metamagic costs and removed the use wisdom, swapping it with charisma. The third score probably was unnecessary...
Cool


My main concern is creating a lower-powered replacement for the sorcerer and wizard. I can add a bit of flavor once I get the balance down.
I'm not sure that's a terribly good idea. Balance refers to all of the abilities in the class, including the ones that were added for flavor (that means most meaningful things you do to add flavor will change the balance). If you want a more positive reason to think of the flavor at the beginning of the proses (in addition to being able to create a more cohesive class) then there's also the fact that if you have a more clearly defined goal and flavor for the class it's often easier to think up reasonable (and balanced) abilities without having to worry about them being able to handle themselves in any potential scenario.

Also, please note, I'm not talking about fluff or back-story. It's perfectly possible (and I often do) to ignore those (though a few basic sentences of fluff saying what they do [a sort of executive summary] wouldn't hurt). Abilities have a flavor all their own. For example a rangers favored enemy inherently suggests that they're specialists and good at tracking things, the mechanics of a rogue's sneak-attack suggest that they're better off when getting the drop on things and the way a barbarians rage works leads people to the front line. This would remain true regardless of what they were called.


Speaking of which do you think this, judging by what I have done anyways, reaches low tier-2 / high tier 3?
I can't really tell. Honestly, I'm not sure how playable this classes is in it's current incarnation. There seem to be two main problems:
Out of combat this class can break things worse than the normal wizard (sans 8th and 9th level spells) since they effectively have infinite casting (∞ iron walls -> ∞ iron -> money [there are some things that the dm can do to limit this, and it's indicative of a fairly abusive mindset anyways, but there are other more reasonable {and less immediately obvious} ways this can break things]).
Conversely, in combat you only get three mid level spells (plus some free castings of one spell) even at level 20 which means you can't really last for a meaningful length of time (while there is a mechanic for faster point recover it requires you to stand there and do nothing for several turns. This is boring and not particularly helpful to anyone else). This is compounded by the way spell points progress (or fail to progress), there are large gaps where you have no meaningful change in power (most notably 15 to 20). Unfortunately, with the current system this isn't easily fixed, as simply adding more points/speeding the progression could quickly unbalance things. Alternatives to spells might help, but I'm not sure what sort of alternatives would be a good idea (this is one of the times where a more defined flavor would help).

On that note, I feel that I should point out that in order to make the mana system viable you're going to need to rewrite a truly massive number of spells which will require a great deal of effort and has the potential to significantly impact the balance of the class. It might be better to come up with a conversion rule of some sort that could be applied to most spells allowing you to focus on the corner cases.



The reason for fireball dealing extra damage to metal is drawn from the idea that metal is molded by heat. If you think it is too weird I can remove it.
The only reason metal is molded by heat is because heat doesn't destroy it (unlike almost everything else). Even if it did make sense it leads to a whole slew of unfortunate implications (either my fireball is automatically doing damage to enemy items [many at double the normal rate] meaning bie-bie loot, especially gold, or it's doing extra damage to people who wear metal armor (silly humanoids) which is just mean to the fighters.

Edit: Right, I just realized, spell touched needs to be fixed. There are several spells that seem worrisome when used with it (circle against x and invisibility come to mind) while going through the srd I realized that it also applies to true strike.

eftexar
2011-08-23, 12:31 AM
Alright, well, I think this class is going to have to lack fluff. Unfortunately I have one thing I'm aiming for: a weaker sorcerer that doesn't become useless at the end of the day. This is more of an experiment with mechanics than anything. If it works I can work a new class with some cool fluff that is based off of the mechanics I make here. The other problem with aiming for flavor is that this is meant as a replacement for the sorcerer and wizard (adding flavor would, well, make it something else (so its flavor is to not have flavor)).

As far as the infinite spells thing goes you have to keep in mind I won't be adding all the spells the sorcerer/wizard normal has access to. Not only that but in the iron wall situation I could say that it 'rusts' away at the end of a duration. The class is being built around shortened durations (or newly added duration), lessened effects, and the removal of overpowered spells.

Alright I solved the problem of waiting for spells. 1st level spells now only cost 1 spell points (and so may basically be used at will) and are available at first level. That means acid splash with 1d4 damage (and always 2d4 at level 4). It's not as much damage as a weapon, but its ranged and doesn't need an attack roll. And I'm sure there are feats to increase that damage (and I mean non-metamagic feats).

When you say there is no meaningful progress between 15 to 20 did you notice the class abilities grant 4 new spells that can be cast about 4 times a day total? And these will be 8-9th level effects. I think they're worth the lack of spell point gain.
Would you mind pointing out the other gaps in progression you were speaking of?

And as to your point about a massive rewrite, I actually do plan to rewrite most of the sorcerer/wizard spells in the players handbook and maybe even the spell compendium if I'm feeling up to it.
I suppose I should still make a conversion method for spells present elsewhere. That shouldn't be too hard as I do have a basic formula, although it works best with blaster-style spells. I'll probably do that once the mechanics are solid.

The fireball effect specified it only dealt that damage to unattended metal objects. I'll remove the melting effect of the fireball anyways, because your right it doesn't make sense.

Hmm... Your right about spell touched. I'll have to change it.

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-23, 11:31 PM
Alright, well, I think this class is going to have to lack fluff. Unfortunately I have one thing I'm aiming for: a weaker sorcerer that doesn't become useless at the end of the day. This is more of an experiment with mechanics than anything. If it works I can work a new class with some cool fluff that is based off of the mechanics I make here. The other problem with aiming for flavor is that this is meant as a replacement for the sorcerer and wizard (adding flavor would, well, make it something else (so its flavor is to not have flavor)).
That's not quite what I'm talking about and I'm not sure the srd sorcerer or wizard are good target points to be aiming at for a "well designed class" (note I'm not talking about a generalist vs specialist type of flavor), but it's not really worth arguing about.


As far as the infinite spells thing goes you have to keep in mind I won't be adding all the spells the sorcerer/wizard normal has access to. Not only that but in the iron wall situation I could say that it 'rusts' away at the end of a duration. The class is being built around shortened durations (or newly added duration), lessened effects, and the removal of overpowered spells.
In that case you can't expect people to effectivly judge you're class until you've built up a larger stable of spells, it would be like judging a warlock and assuming it gets wizard spells for invocations. That said, I'm woried that you'll run into trouble with most (if not all) of the divination, transmutation and utility spells and you already seem to have nixed the necromancy school...



Alright I solved the problem of waiting for spells. 1st level spells now only cost 1 spell points (and so may basically be used at will) and are available at first level. That means acid splash with 1d4 damage (and always 2d4 at level 4). It's not as much damage as a weapon, but its ranged and doesn't need an attack roll. And I'm sure there are feats to increase that damage (and I mean non-metamagic feats). That doesn't solve the problem. 2d4 is irrelevant by the mid levels (keep in mind that while some weapons deal similar damage they are meant to work with iterative attacks and a boost from ability modifiers) and even if it where, it still wouldn't get used, because every round that you use acid splash is a round where you don't regain points for the spells you actually want to use (if you're playing a mage you don't want to use the same 3 [I'm assuming you have plans for equivalent spells from other elements] spells for 20 levels). I'm not entirely sure why the fact that it uses a save instead of a touch attack is relevant (why is that anyways, from the description I would expect the reverse).


When you say there is no meaningful progress between 15 to 20 did you notice the class abilities grant 4 new spells that can be cast about 4 times a day total? And these will be 8-9th level effects. I think they're worth the lack of spell point gain.
Would you mind pointing out the other gaps in progression you were speaking of?
Yes I was aware of that, no it doesn't makeup for the lack of gain, even if it didn't have the castings per day cap (which I forgot about). Even though you get knew spells you can't reliably use them during battle because they would deplete your resources to quickly. The fact that you have 9th level spells just makes the fact that your stuck using your 4th level ones at 20 less palatable.

the other gaps are 3rd-7th, 8th-10th, and 11th-14th (though 13 and 14 are offset by specialization and spell touched respectively). Keep in mind that even though you're gaining new spells at all of these level you're still being given the same amount of power at the end of a bracket as at the beginning (effectively forcing you to play like a lower level character), the addition of high level spells just burns through your allotment that much faster.





And as to your point about a massive rewrite, I actually do plan to rewrite most of the sorcerer/wizard spells in the players handbook and maybe even the spell compendium if I'm feeling up to it.
I suppose I should still make a conversion method for spells present elsewhere. That shouldn't be too hard as I do have a basic formula, although it works best with blaster-style spells. I'll probably do that once the mechanics are solid.

Eh, I've always been lukewarm on that sort of thing. It has a tendency to cutout allot of the available splat book and homebrew material, which are the 2 biggest selling points for D&D in my opinion.


Hmm... Your right about spell touched. I'll have to change it.
Just keep in mind that it should be balanced against the warlock's invocations, since that's basically what they are.

eftexar
2011-08-24, 12:27 AM
I'm not 'aiming' to balance it with the sorcerer. This is meant to be an alternative lower powered version. What I am copying from the sorcerer is the fact that the class is built around gaining different spells.

Yes I have cut the necromancy school. I personally think that it belongs exclusively with a cleric or a necromancer. Divination will be probably be the hardest though (no arguments there). Transmutation shouldn't be much of a problem though (I can shorten ranges and remove auto-successes).

Sorry I'll add in more spells before I ask about the classes level of strength again. They probably won't be finished for a while though, as this is a project I plan on working on for a while (and there are a lot of spells).

Alright I'll agree with you on not getting enough at higher levels. What would you suggest to balance those last few levels out? But I don't think I agree with your opinion on there being other gaps (well except for 4 which was a bit barren with the then useless retraining ability). Still need to come up with something for level 4 though...

As far as damage output, keep in mind that at 6th level acid splash loses its spell point cost and can be used at will then (while you still recover spell points). And until then you won't have access to higher level spells anyways (but acid splash scales to a 2d6 per round at level 6 (and 3d6 at 8) without costing any spell points). The point where you get a no-cost acid splash is also at around the point iterative attacks are gained by melee characters and you start to gain higher level spells. The approximate damage output remains slightly below fighters, but excludes some other facotrs. Here's the my math:Lets say you are at level 20. You could cast 3 fireballs (expending mana at some points) dealing 19d6 damage across the course of 3 rounds and then deal 3d6 acid damage on each of the next 2 rounds before being able to cast a 7d6 fireball again. A highly optimized figher would probably deal around 28 damage (assuming 2 hits) per round. So after 5 rounds the magus would deal about 110 damage and the fighter would deal about 140. While this is considerably less than the fighter, the magus can also hit more targets with each spell, each spell has effects beyond damage, the magus will have more utility, and can still power these spells up with metamagic feats by 'forfeiting' only a couple of spell points or mana (exceeding the fighters damage) every now and then.
Up to 9th level spells and they should be dealing a base of 9d6 damage though and 16d6 with full mana spent on a single spell. Follow this up with 4 3d6 acids. That is 19d6 instead of 29d6 in 5 rounds or 26d6 instead of 32d6 in 6 rounds (adding a 7d6 fireball). While less than the other pattern it would also have better secondary effects and presumably larger AoEs.
I apologize, but I fail to see where the problem is with output. If anything this brings the class down to the strength of classes like the fighter and the rogue. You just have to manage your resources more.

And I don't understand where you are picking up acid splash has a save or requires an attack roll. If it required either I would list it. It simply deals the damage it states unless some other factor prevents it from doing so.

And the whole point of this class is to force you to play a lower level character (although I'm assuming you meant along the level of non-casting classes). The sorcerer is overpowered, and so the point of this class is to increase power on a much slower basis (and I think its power still grows faster than a fighters).

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-24, 08:55 AM
Yes I have cut the necromancy school. I personally think that it belongs exclusively with a cleric or a necromancer. Divination will be probably be the hardest though (no arguments there). Transmutation shouldn't be much of a problem though (I can shorten ranges and remove auto-successes).
I'm not sure you're going to be able to do this and still have a generalist.


As far as damage output, keep in mind that at 6th level acid splash loses its spell point cost and can be used at will then (while you still recover spell points). And until then you won't have access to higher level spells anyways (but acid splash scales to a 2d6 per round at level 6 (and 3d6 at 8) without costing any spell points). The point where you get a no-cost acid splash is also at around the point iterative attacks are gained by melee characters and you start to gain higher level spells. The approximate damage output remains slightly below fighters, but excludes some other facotrs. Here's the my math:Lets say you are at level 20. You could cast 3 fireballs (expending mana at some points) dealing 19d6 damage across the course of 3 rounds and then deal 3d6 acid damage on each of the next 2 rounds before being able to cast a 7d6 fireball again. A highly optimized figher would probably deal around 28 damage (assuming 2 hits) per round. So after 5 rounds the magus would deal about 110 damage and the fighter would deal about 140. While this is considerably less than the fighter, the magus can also hit more targets with each spell, each spell has effects beyond damage, the magus will have more utility, and can still power these spells up with metamagic feats by 'forfeiting' only a couple of spell points or mana (exceeding the fighters damage) every now and then.
Up to 9th level spells and they should be dealing a base of 9d6 damage though and 16d6 with full mana spent on a single spell. Follow this up with 4 3d6 acids. That is 19d6 instead of 29d6 in 5 rounds or 26d6 instead of 32d6 in 6 rounds (adding a 7d6 fireball). While less than the other pattern it would also have better secondary effects and presumably larger AoEs.
I apologize, but I fail to see where the problem is with output. If anything this brings the class down to the strength of classes like the fighter and the rogue. You just have to manage your resources more.
Before we go any where, I'm obligated to point out that the rouge is a tier 4 class and the fighter is tier 5. You've said your aiming for tier 3
I don't know what your value for "optimized" fighter is (especially if it's only hitting on 2 out of 4 attacks), but I'm fairly certain it's possible to deal upward of double 28/round with an optimized rogue.
I should also probably point out that people would probably want to spend their mana on real spells (no a level one standby is not a real spell at level 20).

Honestly, I think they need more power points over a more even progression. The way you currently have things is really stilted and jerky with them getting a moderate gain every 4 levels instead of a steady gain over 20 levels.



And I don't understand where you are picking up acid splash has a save or requires an attack roll. If it required either I would list it. It simply deals the damage it states unless some other factor prevents it from doing so.
... I'm not sure how most people would feel about a source of damage that auto hits (even magic missile isn't quite so unerring).


And the whole point of this class is to force you to play a lower level character (although I'm assuming you meant along the level of non-casting classes). The sorcerer is overpowered, and so the point of this class is to increase power on a much slower basis (and I think its power still grows faster than a fighters).
If I had meant a lower tier I would have said so. I meant it forces you to play at a lower character level. There is no meaningful change in power between the various points where you get more energy.

eftexar
2011-08-24, 11:53 AM
Yeah, I'm worried about whether or not I can still make a generalist too...

My points with the fighter and rogue dealing less damage than you said is the exclusion of the last 2 attacks and sneak attack damage. Most monsters will have an AC too high to hit with all of your attacks and nearly half of the creatures you fight are immune to sneak attack damage.
And how would you suggest allowing people to use 'real' spells more often? If I just up the spell point progression the class breaks because one of the points is to reduce the spamming of high level spells.
I can make the spell point progression more even.

And this is where I debate scratching this whole project. I am creeping towards the conclusion that the casting system currently in play is broken beyond fix. I might be better off working from scratch because in order to 'fix' the current system in one way I will end up breaking it in another (aka I made it too complex to work).

jiriku
2011-08-25, 07:28 AM
Let's see, at 20th level I have 21 spells known, which can be of any level up to 7th, plus 2 spontaneous slots, which are spells known that I can change each day. Also 2/day I can cast any spell from my list, and Int mod times per day I can cast one of three 8th level spells, and 1/day I can cast one 9th level spell. I cast them by spending spell points according to the table, except for my specialist element, which is slightly discounted, unless the spells are 1st or 2nd level, in which case they're free. Metamagic costs 4 extra spell points per spell level adjustment, except magus metamagic which is 3, or Heighten spell which is 2. Additional metamagic on the same spell costs mana in addition to spell points, but I regenerate mana automatically every round. I can regain spell points each round, but that takes my action. Depending on my feats, I may also be able to take "ability damage" to my mana or spell point total to apply metamagic without cost or quickly refresh some mana or spell points. Have I got all that?

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-25, 10:03 AM
I actaualy have suggestions for two of those problems:
Spell points- there's actually a really elegant spellpoint fix on these forums (I'll try to link it when I get back on a real computer). The fix has 3 components: a slow regen, a low number of points that progress slowly and, most importantly, the cost of spells decreases as you level. It's not on a per day scale and it goes to level nine, but it should give you some. Good ideas.

Available power- I'm actually of the oppinion that designing a normal class to rely solely on spells is a bad idea. They're supposed to be these things that you really have to conserve and that can act as game changers, but if they're all a class gets they have to use them so you have to give them tons and I don't think that balancing act works. I'd give them a secondary mechanic that they can rely on. This is where the flavor thing comes is, they're a Generalist Magellan, but what does that mean? Is magic a sortof advanced science/math (in which case they could get a "super spell" that they upgrade from menues as they level and rather than casting it remain quesiant when not in use and have some of the upgrades determine how often and how long it can be active), is it the result of personal enlightenment and the realizeation of their own inherint divinity (in which case they could gain warlock-esc ay will abilities), treating with outsiders and Fay for power (maybe let them make bargains in exchange for extra spells or bigger effects [a sortof bail me out and I'll go on a quest for you])... There are a ton of other options, but the point is to give them a less volatile mechanic to rely on (or a way to make it less volatile for a cost).

Notes- you should assume an optimized fighter can hit with 3 attacks a rogue will find a way to make sneak stacks work.
Also, i was getting the fealling that you might be better off creating a new mechanic, you seem to want to avoid a large number of magical inherent assumptions (you almost seem closer to psi) .

eftexar
2011-08-25, 12:02 PM
Yes jiriku, that's pretty much it. The only thing you missed was that you automatically recover 1 spell point each round.

And all good points epsilon rose... Hmm... I think I need to restart from scratch and I've actually got a new idea revolving around 'warlock-esque' abilities and progressive spells (I started working on it last night). It's a more specific fluff-wise than I was intending when I started the magus. So, I think I'm going to call this one a bust and start a new thread on a new class: The Cosmologist.

On another note I did some quick looking around and found several feats that allow sneak attacks against things that are normally immune, so I'll have to agree with you on the rogue. But I still don't think a straight up fighter will get 3 attacks though unless they take another melee class as well that grants some sort of attack roll bonus. At least not against the foes that count (then again I'm used to facing higher level foes more often than grunts in the campaigns I have played so I might not be the best judge of this).

jiriku
2011-08-25, 04:50 PM
Yah. I'd recommend no more than two forms of bookkeeping for a given class, whereas this one has at least six. Like invocations and spells per day, or spells points and mana, or x/day specials and martial maneuvers...no more than two.