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View Full Version : Swordplay isn't a feat it's a skill.



darkbuu_1
2011-07-31, 04:50 PM
Weapon proficiencies are expensive and it's normally not worth it for an interesting weapon and even less for an alternative weapon.

So here's what I'm suggesting, lets make Weapon Proficiencies a skill, like Speak Language.

To gain proficiency with a new single it would cost:
1 rank for a simple weapon.
2 ranks for a martial weapon.
3 ranks for an exotic weapon.

Since this is a skill it means some classes get it as a class skill, which would be most of the full BAB classes and possibly some special cases like War-domain Cleric, then everyone else well getting it at 2, 4 and 6 points. With some kind of discount for Fighters.

Now to over completing things, but I was also thinking that every rank in a weapon could half the negative until it's paid off, so for an exotic weapon; 1 rank becomes -2, 2 ranks is -1 and then paid at 3.

The thing I'm aiming for is a cheaper way for players to add a new weapon to their character without having to make their character revolve around it.

But yeah. . .

Retech
2011-07-31, 04:52 PM
Martial characters can't have nice things. :smallbiggrin:

Divide by Zero
2011-07-31, 04:53 PM
Sounds like you're trying to turn D&D into a skill-based system. So why not just start with a skill-based system instead?

Drelua
2011-07-31, 04:56 PM
I like that idea. I'm gonna use that. Only thing I have to add: would it make sense for the cost to be further reduced, depending on proficiencies? Maybe exotic weapons only cost 2 ranks if you're proficient with all martial weapons, or do you think that just makes it too complicated?

HappyBlanket
2011-07-31, 05:21 PM
High-Int Wizards are now more competent in melee than Fighters are.

Then again, they kinda already are.

Zeful
2011-07-31, 07:00 PM
Weapon proficiencies are expensive and it's normally not worth it for an interesting weapon and even less for an alternative weapon.

So here's what I'm suggesting, lets make Weapon Proficiencies a skill, like Speak Language.

To gain proficiency with a new single it would cost:
1 rank for a simple weapon.
2 ranks for a martial weapon.
3 ranks for an exotic weapon.

Since this is a skill it means some classes get it as a class skill, which would be most of the full BAB classes and possibly some special cases like War-domain Cleric, then everyone else well getting it at 2, 4 and 6 points. With some kind of discount for Fighters.

Now to over completing things, but I was also thinking that every rank in a weapon could half the negative until it's paid off, so for an exotic weapon; 1 rank becomes -2, 2 ranks is -1 and then paid at 3.

The thing I'm aiming for is a cheaper way for players to add a new weapon to their character without having to make their character revolve around it.

But yeah. . .

Faster and easier to make it more like Craft skills. You have specific weapon group proficiencies as class skills (Axe, Bow, Sword, etc.). Then you just remove the Base attack Bonus from everybody and use the skills for too hit.

Of course this pretty much removes either everybody else's weapon proficiencies, pigeonholes other classes, or makes the mundane classes in full useless.

Dragon Star
2011-07-31, 07:24 PM
I think this is a great idea. I would do the same thing for armor, and let you spend more points to reduce the ACP. The arcane spell failure too, but at a very high cost, and not a class skill for wiz and sor so not that unbalanced. Also, this belongs in homebrew. Will report it so it can get moved.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-31, 09:12 PM
High-Int Wizards are now more competent in melee than Fighters are.

Thats what I was thinking. However, none the less; a mere three ranks for exotic proficiency?

Domriso
2011-07-31, 11:13 PM
I prefer making weapon proficiencies even easier to gain. Training with the weapon for one month allows you to gain control over it, if you're a martial character, and if you're a non-martial character you automatically can learn proficiencies as you level, at a rate of one per level, assuming you train for it for a substantial period of time.

Though, this is also an idea I appreciate. Having proficiencies come from skill points are somewhat interesting, and they allow for characters to become more interesting. One point to consider is that martial characters will possibly need more skill points, or else Rogues and Bards actually become more likely to gain use in lots of weapons.

Finally, a third possibility is that of creating martial skills. If you have a skill in fighting with weapons in general, then you can make it fairly easy to gain new weapon proficiencies (every skill rank, or maybe two, you get a new proficiency.

Just my two cents!

Arcran
2011-08-01, 08:21 AM
3 is a bit low if people can cross class for it. How about the price is 3 for the next group? For example a fighter, since he has Martial and Simple Proficincies would only have to pay 3 points for an exotic weapon, but a Wizard, who doesn't even have full Simple Prof would have to pay 3 for each Simple that he doesn't have, 6 for Martials, and 9 for Exotic. If the Wizard ever managed to get full Simple Prof the Martials would only cost 3 and Exotic would cost 6. I hope this all made sense and wasn't too complicated.

gkathellar
2011-08-01, 08:31 AM
Thats what I was thinking. However, none the less; a mere three ranks for exotic proficiency?

3 is a bit low if people can cross class for it. How about the price is 3 for the next group? For example a fighter, since he has Martial and Simple Proficincies would only have to pay 3 points for an exotic weapon, but a Wizard, who doesn't even have full Simple Prof would have to pay 3 for each Simple that he doesn't have, 6 for Martials, and 9 for Exotic. If the Wizard ever managed to get full Simple Prof the Martials would only cost 3 and Exotic would cost 6. I hope this all made sense and wasn't too complicated.

Skill tricks are significantly better than almost any Exotic Weapon Proficiency (except maybe spiked chain), and cost 2 skill points each.

Eldan
2011-08-01, 08:50 AM
I've suggested something similar in the past, and I still think it's a good idea. I also dropped the Weapon Focus/Specialization feats and suggested to give a +1 to hit per four ranks and a +1 to damage per three ranks in the skill.

Arcran
2011-08-01, 08:50 AM
But were going from a feat to a skill which means the skill point cost should be significant.

Eldan
2011-08-01, 08:57 AM
Which means fighters et al. should have 6 skill points per level. Which they probably should anyway.

gkathellar
2011-08-01, 09:34 AM
But were going from a feat to a skill which means the skill point cost should be significant.

And the feat sucks. It's not worth a feat, and that's part of the reason why you would convert it to a skill in the first place. Seriously, unless you're taking it for Spiked Chain, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is almost as bad as Dodge.

FatJose
2011-08-01, 02:05 PM
Reminds me of Fallout 3. Never played the older games and I don't know if FO3 used a published system but it's worth a look see for what you're talking about.

Feats in it were actual feats, supernatural or otherwise and all weapons were categorized as skills.
http://cdn.steampowered.com/Manuals/22300/fallout3_us_pc_manual.pdf?t=1289585642

The feats are called perks and the either represent natural or acquired talents, focused training, and superhuman abilities at higher levels.

Many secret feats/perks can also be acquired outside of the level up system as special quest rewards, like Power Armor Proficiency.

darkbuu_1
2011-08-01, 04:53 PM
It seems to have mostly come down to the cost being too low and that high int characters could spend all their skill points learning new weapons.

The cost for learning a new weapon shouldn't be too high, otherwise it would just be a new way to ignore exotic weapons.

I tried to set the price so it would be really easy for full BABers to pick up the weapons they want. I thought 6 skill points was a pretty steep investment for 3/4 BABs so they'd only choose one or two weapons with interesting abilitys or 4 points for a martial for a boost to damage. I was originally thinking of basing on BAB so all the 1/2 BABs would have to pay more but really they have more important things to spend their points on and better uses of their actions than swinging a sword around same goes for the high int characters, but if that's really what they want to do they can.

Drelua: While I do like your idea of rewarding lower proficiencies which is something I don't like about mine, I am kind of worry costs getting too cheap from multiclassing.

Domriso: Granting proficiencies through training was something I was originally thinking but they don't have enough downtime to come back and say "Now I can use X" and I don't want to force people in to using weapons they don't know in fights. And while it's not worth a feat I still feel it should be worth something.

FatJose: I'll have to wait until my pdf reader is willing to co-operate but that sounds good.

Domriso
2011-08-01, 08:43 PM
I would say the easiest way to do it would to be just give classes that normally have more proficiencies extra automatic "proficiency skill points" at 1st level. This does let high Intelligence characters have a lot of proficiencies, but who cares? That doesn't really make them amazingly overpowered; it just gives them options.