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ExemplarofAvg
2011-08-03, 01:30 PM
It has been a rather rainy day here today, so I decided to look into something that Wizards hasn't accounted for, at least not to my knowledge, and I'm beginning to understand why. Fishing, I'm working on Rods and Reels, Basically you cast ranged attack based on the maximum range of the rod, a percentile is rolled for the environment you are in (determining what type of thing you may have hooked) you do a to hit against the ac of the thing you do not know and then grapple checks begin, Rods improve your to hit, better reels pull the fish or other object closer faster. That's probably the simplist bit, the actuall application of this needs work, that and while you can catch things from squid to dire whales, Wizards never got around to fish, simple little (well some not so little) So I've spent today working on the fish, littler fish being more common and then there's some fish that you wouldn't even believe. I'm finding it tedious to make fish smaller than Small size, but they exist, and are easy to catch it's a staple of some diets. The only thing the fish really lack is a challenge rating, and reliable Hit Dice scaling, I figured every double would make it one size cateogory larger. Thoughts, Opinions, Advice, any thing else to contribute, shout it out.

Small Fish

Size/Type: Small Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: D8
Initiative: +4
Speed: Swim 20 ft. (4 Squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+4 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Natural), Touch 15, Flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-8
Attack: None
Full-Attack: Slam -8 (1d4-4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./ 5ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision
Saves: Fort +0, Ref+4, Will +0
Abilities: Str 2, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +4
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Any Aquatic
Organization: School (20-100)
Challenge Rating: Do Not Have Yet
Skills
Fish have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check, even if it is distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming provided it runs in a straight line.

Medium Fish

Size/Type: Medium Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 30ft ft. (6 Squares)
Armor Class: 14(+3Dex,+1 Natural), Touch 13, Flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-2
Attack: None
Full Attack: Slam -2 (1d6-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision
Saves: Fort +3, Ref+5, Will +0
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Spot 2, Swim +10
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Any Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or school (22-36)
Challenge Rating: ?

Skills
Fish have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check, even if it is distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming provided it runs in a straight line.

Large Fish

Size/Type: Large Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 2d8+6
Initiative: +2
Speed: Swim 40 ft. (8 Squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +3 Natural -1 Size), Touch 11, Flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+7
Attack: None
Full Attack: Slam -2 (1d8+2)
Space/Reach:10 ft./ 5ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref+5, Will +0
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Spot 2, Swim +15
Feats: Alertness
Environment:Any Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or School (13-22)
Challenge Rating ?
Advancement

Skills
Fish have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check, even if it is distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming provided it runs in a straight line.

Huge Fish

Size/Type: Huge Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 4d8+20
Initiative: +5
Speed: Swim 60 ft. (12 Squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 Dex, +5 Natural, -2 Size), Touch 9, Flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+17
Attack: None
Full Attack: Slam +2 (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision
Saves: Fort +9, Ref+5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +21
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative
Environment: Any Aquatic
Organization: Solitary, Pair or school (5-11)
Challenge Rating: ?

Skills
Fish have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check, even if it is distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming provided it runs in a straight line.

Gargantuan Fish

Size/Type: Gargantuan Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 8d8+56
Initiative: +5
Speed: Swim 80 ft. (16 Squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +9 Natural, -4 Size), Touch 7, Flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+28
Attack: None
Full Attack: Slam +11 (2d8+10)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision
Saves: Fort +13, Ref+7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Spot 2, Swim +29
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Swim-By Attack
Environment: Any Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or Pod (2-7)
Challenge Rating: ?

Skills
Fish have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check, even if it is distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming provided it runs in a straight line.

Colossal Fish

Size/Type Colossal Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 16d8+144
Initiative: +5
Speed: Swim 100 ft. (20 Squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 Dex +14 Natural, -8 Size), Touch 3, Flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+28
Attack: Slam +18/+13/+8 (4d8+14)
Full Attack: Slam +18 (4d8+14)
Space/Reach: 40 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision
Saves: Fort +19, Ref+13, Will +7
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 12, Con 28, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +41
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Swim-By Attack, Improved Natural Attack (Slam), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Environment: Any Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or Pair
Challenge Rating: ?
Skills
Fish have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check, even if it is distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming provided it runs in a straight line.

All Fish are being kept fresh in Spoilers. :smallbiggrin:

Nopraptor
2011-08-03, 03:48 PM
I think applying the attack rules to fishing with rods is a horrible decision, when casting a rod into a pond, you arent hoping to bonk the fish on the head with the hook, what you do is cast your length of string and hope something bites the end.

I think it would be preffrable to devise a system including types of lures and in accordance types of fish you can catch with those lures and how long it will take a fish to bite

however, I agree of using a version of the grapple rules

Yitzi
2011-08-03, 04:25 PM
Survival checks might belong in there too.

Debihuman
2011-08-04, 08:30 AM
I have never seen a fish with a slam attack before. They usually have a bite attack. If it has a secondary natural attack that is used as a primary attack you note it in the text and still put it as a primary attack. Secondary natural attacks take the penalty even when used as primary attack.

A Small fish would have a CR of 1/4. A single person should be able to catch a Small fish. A Medium fish would have CR 1/2. A Large Fish could be CR 3/4.

It would probably be better to see how a rod and reel affect catching a fish. I would think that catching a fish would fall under the Survival skill. A DC 10 survival check allows you to provide food (i.e. fish) for one other person for every 2 points by which your check result exceeds 10.

In order to feed a party of 4 a meal of fish, you need to succeed on a DC 16 survival check. Using the proper equipment (like rod and reel, bait, etc. ) would probably grant you a +2 Circumstance bonus to catch your fish.

It's not particularly exciting, but there you go.

Debby

hamishspence
2011-08-04, 08:36 AM
What criteria are you using for size? Weight? Nose tip to tail tip? Nose tip to vent (roughly where the "base of the tail" would be on a terrestrial animal)?

Some creatures get lighter weights than the normal MM rules- being significantly lighter than the MM would dictate. Rocs, Winter Wolves, and so on.

Maybe this could be applied here?

That said, I doubt there are any bony fish that are anywhere near Colossal (Leedichthys was a lot smaller than the one in the Sea Monsters TV show).

For other fish, the top end estimates for Carcharodon/Carcharocles Megalodon, might put it close enough to the Colossal range to justify including it.

And "fantastic fish" could be done as bigger than real ones.

The Tygre
2011-08-04, 10:15 AM
Alright, let's see if we can't at least ball-park these CRs;

Small: CR 2/3
Medium: CR 1
Large: CR 2
Huge: CR 3
Gargantuan: CR 6
Colossal: CR 8

Andorax
2011-08-04, 10:44 AM
I'm at a loss here for why.

Survival check. +2 synergy for masterwork fishing kit.

hamishspence
2011-08-04, 10:49 AM
True- but skill checks aren't as exciting.

Making fishing into a more hazardous- but also more interesting, activity might be the goal.

The Tygre
2011-08-04, 11:00 AM
I'm at a loss here for why.

Survival check. +2 synergy for masterwork fishing kit.

Better question: why not? Besides, skill checks are so boring. Nobody would play an Old Man and the Sea adventure if it was nothing but skill checks. :smalltongue:

rycor
2011-08-04, 11:21 AM
I agree with the survival skill check camp. Making fishing based off attack roles is kind of absurd and overcomplicates everything. Survival, and many other skills, have very open ended capabilities in order to simplify the game. I'm sure that Wizards already thought of this and eft it how it is on purpose.

Morph Bark
2011-08-04, 11:33 AM
Obviously fishing hooks with lure have an effect on fish similar to the Goad feat.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-08-05, 12:43 AM
What criteria are you using for size? Weight? Nose tip to tail tip? Nose tip to vent (roughly where the "base of the tail" would be on a terrestrial animal)?

Some creatures get lighter weights than the normal MM rules- being significantly lighter than the MM would dictate. Rocs, Winter Wolves, and so on.

Maybe this could be applied here?

That said, I doubt there are any bony fish that are anywhere near Colossal (Leedichthys was a lot smaller than the one in the Sea Monsters TV show).

For other fish, the top end estimates for Carcharodon/Carcharocles Megalodon, might put it close enough to the Colossal range to justify including it.

And "fantastic fish" could be done as bigger than real ones.

Yeah, I don't have any weights tied in yet. And for actual size I was thinking tip of the moutch to end out the tail.

And for the Colossal size fish, think of the Elephant Koi you see in any number of cartoons and anime, (Road to Eldorado, Atlantis the Lost Empire, Avatar the Last Airbender, just some off the top of my head)


I'm at a loss here for why.

Survival check. +2 synergy for masterwork fishing kit.

Congrats, you caught a fish (Zelda Music)


Obviously fishing hooks with lure have an effect on fish similar to the Goad feat.

Agreed.

hamishspence
2011-08-05, 05:13 AM
Yeah, I don't have any weights tied in yet. And for actual size I was thinking tip of the moutch to end out the tail.

Seems reasonable for aquatic creatures in general. And it helps increase the number of fish in the high-end categories.

So- every 16+ ft fish can be Huge, 32+ ft fish can be Gargantuan, 64+ ft fish can be Colossal.

16 ft Great White Sharks have been caught on hook and line before.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-08-05, 08:30 AM
Seems reasonable for aquatic creatures in general. And it helps increase the number of fish in the high-end categories.

So- every 16+ ft fish can be Huge, 32+ ft fish can be Gargantuan, 64+ ft fish can be Colossal.

16 ft Great White Sharks have been caught on hook and line before.

And those are with mundane rods and reels with mithral line and an adamantine rod who knows.

Worlok
2011-08-12, 04:37 PM
I've done some thinking on this. Fishing in d20, I mean. Essentially, the fishing rod becomes the medium of the encounter between fish and fisherman, right? So how about the following:

1. Equipment

For fishing with a rod, you usually need at least a rod, a hook and bait of some sort. Lots of the smaller parts can often be considered part of a single tool kit for ease of bookkeeping, along the lines of a Climber's or Healer's kit as per the SRD or Player's Handbook. If we assume "bait" to be something traditional such as worms or maggots, as appropriate for D&D's usual medieval vibe, rather than all the tacky flashy bits our modern age employs, this would give us the:

((Fisherman's kit - It contains a number of things useful for fishing and comes with enough bait for twenty fish. A single piece of bait "lasts" until a fish swallows it. Using supplies from a fisherman's kit grants a +2 circumstance bonus on the roll that determines whether a fish bites - See "Rolling for fish", below. A fisherman's kit generally weighs 5 lb. and costs about 30 gp.))

As for the line, we really only need the length in which it comes. Let's say a 50-ft.-line (meaning 10 squares, as usual) for 5 sp., weighing 5 lb., is the norm.

A fishing rod can be used as an improvised reach weapon of its size, dealing damage equal to a dagger of its size, crit on a 20, -4 on attack rolls for improvisation, to opponents ten feet away, but never adjacent ones, when used in this manner. Any square that you would thusly threaten with your fishing rod can be the relevant square (RS) for the fishing encounter, provided it is immediately above the surface of the body of water you intend to fish in or adjacent to one such square (see "Rolling for fish", below, once again).

Fishing hooks are already detailed in the SRD, they are usually at the non-rod end of the line.

The length of the line minus the reach of the rod is the effective maximum length (EML) of the line and the radius in which a fish, once hooked, can move, provided that it doesn't move into squares that are not water while doing so.

2. Rolling for fish

A Knowledge (nature) check can tell you what kinds and sizes of fish you can find within a given body of water, such as "a brook in a temperate forest" or "a pool in a warm swamp". DCs for this check are at the DM's discretion.

A Survival check can come into play when you are trying to determine whether fish exist within a given body of water and whether there are any toxins you should be weary of. DCs are, again, DM's discretion.

Before the fishing encounter starts, you determine the relevant square (RS) for that fishing attempt as mentioned above. This is the square into which you want to get the fish in order to have caught it, meaning "won" the fishing encounter. You also determine a hook square (HS), which is, not surprisingly, the square in which the hook floats and must be in the water. The length of the line you initially give (any amount smaller than the EML) is the maximum distance between RS and HS. Additional line may be given at any point as a swift action, until full EML is reached.

Now, you roll for fish appearance. In general, this means rolling a d20 every minute of in-game-time or percentile die, referring to any fish-population related tables there may be, adding the bonus provided by the bait (if any) and any luck bonus that may currently affect your skill checks or attack rolls, but not skill ranks, attack modifiers or ability modifiers to this roll. The DC you have to hit with the roll is, once more, up to the DM or may be randomly determined by another d20, d% or table.

Once you have beaten the DC, a fish bites, taking 1d2-1 lethal piercing damage from the fishing hook and becoming hooked (effectively pinned by the rod). This is when both you and it roll initiative. Note that no matter how you roll on your initiative check, you are considered flat-footed with regards to everything but the fish for the whole duration of the fishing encounter. Every round thereafter, you both roll opposed Strength checks in initiative order, the fish applying any modifiers to grapple checks it has by virtue of its size and you applying whichever you may have, provided your fishing rod is built for a creature of your size, but again, no attack modifiers - Read: You essentially make grapple checks as if you had a base attack bonus of +0. One such Strength check effectively eats up both standard and move action within a given round.

If the fish wins the Strength check, it moves 5 ft. into a randomly determined direction as the equivalent of a swift action (roll 1d6 to determine whether that direction is up, down, left, right, towards you, or away from you, rerolling in case of movement being blocked. Note that moving up may be a jump in the air where such is possible - The fish effectively remains in place, but has still expended its move!). If, in doing so, it moves farther away from the RS than the length of line given would allow, you may roll a reflex save against its Strength check result to immediately give more line. If you fail the save, the fish's Strength check becomes a sunder attempt against the line.

If you win the Strength check, you may immediately draw in 5 ft. of line, forcing the fish to move one square towards you. Once the fish is at least partially in your RS, it takes the abovementioned piercing damage from the hook every round it remains that way. If this means it or at least its head is out of the water, it is subject to drowning rules as normal and flat-footed against any attack you or anyone else may then roll against it. You may lift it out of the water if you could normally carry something of its weight as a standard action once this has been acchieved.

If the fish moves out of the EML of the line, the first Strength check it rolls while out of EML becomes an immediate trip attempt against your AC. You may not react to trip the fish, but may immediately drop the rod as a free action, risking its loss as the fish drags it away, but maintaining your footing. This specific Strength check becomes a sunder attempt in any case. The fish then proceeds to roll the trip-and-sunder-variant of strength check for as long as it remains at EML, moving as previously detailed whenever it wins Strength checks, even if this means moving back into the radius. You continue rolling as normal.

Both contestants may continue rolling Strength checks for a number of rounds equal to 5 + the respective Con modifier. For every round thereafter, it becomes necessary to succeed on a Fortitude save against a DC equal to each other's Strength score to keep trying. Both contestants become fatigued after losing a number of fishing Strength checks equal to ((10 + Con) - 2 per size category the other is bigger than you) and exhausted after twice that amount. The fisherman may, at any point, release the line as a free action, losing it, the hook, the bait and the fish, but saving himself from too much exhaustion.
Just a suggestion, spoilered for brevity's sake. If someone were to review and perhaps streamline this a little, that'd be quite alright, of course. You may freely integrate this groundwork into whatever concepts you get going, if you deign it halfway useful. :smallsmile: