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Angry Bob
2011-08-03, 04:39 PM
The fey in my homebrew setting have a playing card motif. Four courts, each with thirteen major members, plus two harlequins. These are obviously the "Jokers" of the "deck," and appropriately enough can count as anything. They'd be leShay with a certain number of gestalt class levels and the special ability to... Well, look at the thread title.

A few questions:

What is the Playground's opinion of such a monster?

Though they'd be able to theoretically customize their builds at will, when actually running them, I'd like to have a few builds on hand for them to switch to. What type of builds would you recommend for synergy with this ability?

They'd keep track of damage taken even though their health total changes constantly, and keep track of what each of their classes has used up for the day. In other words, changing classes doesn't let them "reload," except when they change to a "fresh" class for the day.

Would a better idea be to simply stick on every class ability and progression I can think of to an existing leShay and run that?

The thing to keep in mind is that they would be potential enemies in an epic campaign without custom epic spells(but cheese otherwise encouraged). So I wanted to make the different enemies a unique challenge rather than bumrush them with the strongest monsters I could find.

Morph Bark
2011-08-03, 04:41 PM
I think it will be an incredible headache to run for a DM as an encounter, unless he'd not utilize it at all, or only use the class change once.

faceroll
2011-08-03, 04:43 PM
Dodectuple gestalt? Sweet baby Pholtus.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-08-03, 04:44 PM
Just give them Factotum/Chameleon and call it good.

Edit: Give them a wardrobe of costumes, and to change classes they have to change costumes.

Inferno
2011-08-03, 04:47 PM
I agree with Morph, also. but as long as its not done too ridiculously ie: run out of wizard 9'ths, switch to sorcerer 9'ths. it has potential to be a cool encounter, if a little confusing for anyone looking to exploit its weaknesses.

Lord Vampyre
2011-08-03, 04:54 PM
Your best bet is to create them as a Gestalt Wizard // Archivist, then simply give them Good Saves for Fort / Refl / and Will, a full BAB progression, 8 skill points per level, and a d12 for their Hit Dice. Really, the only thing they would be getting from wizard and archivist classes are the full spell progression and the various class features. This will save you the headache of having them switching builds constantly, especially if they switch builds as a free action.

There really isn't anything that they won't be able to accomplish with this kind of a build. Alternatively, you can give them various class features you would like them to have. Just be careful it can get messy rather quickly.

CTrees
2011-08-03, 05:13 PM
"Can switch classes as a swift action" or just "once per turn" would be a very good change. Because... find all the classes that grant free actions, then use all of them, every turn.

sreservoir
2011-08-03, 05:35 PM
"Can switch classes as a swift action" or just "once per turn" would be a very good change. Because... find all the classes that grant free actions, then use all of them, every turn.

I haven't seen any classes that grant free actions, have you?

Greenish
2011-08-03, 05:43 PM
I haven't seen any classes that grant free actions, have you?I'll let you in on a secret: all of them do.

Amnestic
2011-08-03, 05:46 PM
I'll let you in on a secret: all of them do.

Actually: None of them do, since characters/creatures without class levels still get free actions.

137ben
2011-08-03, 06:05 PM
More to the point, I don't think any classes give attacks as a free action, since then members of that class would get unlimited attacks even without being able to switch classes at will.

sreservoir
2011-08-03, 07:12 PM
Actually: None of them do, since characters/creatures without class levels still get free actions.

it's not a feature of just classes -- it's hit dice in general. even racial hit dice. even partial racial hit dice. obviously.

Redshirt Army
2011-08-03, 07:16 PM
Why are we writing in white!?!?!

Morph Bark
2011-08-03, 07:22 PM
Why are we writing in white!?!?!

Welcome to GitP, where white is a stealthier colour than black.

Greenish
2011-08-03, 07:30 PM
it's not a feature of just classes -- it's hit dice in general. even racial hit dice. even partial racial hit dice. obviously.And all classes give HD, hence all classes give free actions. :smallcool:


Why are we writing in white!?!?!It's much simpler than rainbow.

Socratov
2011-08-04, 06:07 AM
Edit: Give them a wardrobe of costumes, and to change classes they have to change costumes.

Vestment of Many
Styles
(RoE p174)
Suit of clothing.
On command, the materials and style of the
cloths change, granting a +2 bonus on
Disguise checks that can benefit from the
right clothing.
500

Although not really just any costume, but I would like to think this is an item which could turn into any costume. If that internally processed biological output won't fly, the you could use:

Hat of Disguise
(DMG p258)
Disguise Self, at will. The ‘hat’ is visible in
any disguise, but will look appropriate (i.e.,
a helmet, headband, comb, etc.).
1,800

(prices are sales prices)

BobVosh
2011-08-04, 06:11 AM
I'll just leave this here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633)
Why bother switch classes if you can basically do everything anyway. Feels more appropriate for a wild card anyway, can very closely emulate anything without being it.

Person_Man
2011-08-04, 07:32 AM
DM Protip: When creating an NPC or monster (as opposed to using one out of a book), don't bother writing everything down, as it's just a waste of time. Just write down what you think are reasonable derived statistics for what you want to create: Hit points, AC, Touch AC, Saving Throws, Grapple check, To-Hit, plus any special defenses like Spell Resistance, Evasion, Energy Resistance, etc. Then write down four or five things it might do in combat - spells, abilities, what a full attack routine is, etc. And you're done.

In combat if you want your NPC or monster to do something you didn't write down, and you think it would be reasonable for him/her/it to do so, then do it. Your players are there to have fun, not test you on the rules. It doesn't matter what classes or race or templates your creation has. You are the DM. You are the god of your world. No one is auditing your work. Just look at the platypus.

ImperatorK
2011-08-04, 08:02 AM
DM Protip: When creating an NPC or monster (as opposed to using one out of a book), don't bother writing everything down, as it's just a waste of time. Just write down what you think are reasonable derived statistics for what you want to create: Hit points, AC, Touch AC, Saving Throws, Grapple check, To-Hit, plus any special defenses like Spell Resistance, Evasion, Energy Resistance, etc. Then write down four or five things it might do in combat - spells, abilities, what a full attack routine is, etc. And you're done.

In combat if you want your NPC or monster to do something you didn't write down, and you think it would be reasonable for him/her/it to do so, then do it. Your players are there to have fun, not test you on the rules. It doesn't matter what classes or race or templates your creation has. You are the DM. You are the god of your world. No one is auditing your work. Just look at the platypus.
Not everyone likes to play freeform. Some people like to play by the rules.

noparlpf
2011-08-04, 08:27 AM
I'd probably look at the Chameleon and try to work off of that as a base for the concept.

deuxhero
2011-08-04, 08:37 AM
Ai, suprised that PRC took so long to come up...

HalfDragonCube
2011-08-04, 08:41 AM
Ai, suprised that PRC took so long to come up...

It was mentioned in post four. The Factotum/Chameleon is a good build, nonetheless.

Edit: If you have changeling as a race, then you can walk round a corner and be a completely different character, but technically only Humans and Doppelgangers can enter Chameleon. Some DMs ignore this requirement for all races, or sometimes just Changeling since they are half-doppelganger.

Angry Bob
2011-08-04, 10:36 AM
DM Protip: When creating an NPC or monster (as opposed to using one out of a book), don't bother writing everything down, as it's just a waste of time. Just write down what you think are reasonable derived statistics for what you want to create: Hit points, AC, Touch AC, Saving Throws, Grapple check, To-Hit, plus any special defenses like Spell Resistance, Evasion, Energy Resistance, etc. Then write down four or five things it might do in combat - spells, abilities, what a full attack routine is, etc. And you're done.

In combat if you want your NPC or monster to do something you didn't write down, and you think it would be reasonable for him/her/it to do so, then do it. Your players are there to have fun, not test you on the rules. It doesn't matter what classes or race or templates your creation has. You are the DM. You are the god of your world. No one is auditing your work. Just look at the platypus.


Not everyone likes to play freeform. Some people like to play by the rules.

I'm the biggest rules lawyer in my group. It may or may not be obvious from the "Custom Atrocities" threads, but making monsters by piling on templates and class levels and statting them up is actually fun for me for whatever reason. Probably because my parents never loved me.

The main reason I wanted feedback on this idea is because I couldn't find a published thing that would let me do this, except perhaps, as suggested earlier, dodectuple gestalt or simply taking Every Class 20+. So I invented something. Factotum/chameleon seems low-powered for what I want it to take on(optimized epic characters). My main concerns are about expediting the process, since such a monster would be hard, impossible, or mind-numbingly complex to run without preparation.

Thinking on it, I could have the creature able not to imitate absolutely anything, but rather to only emulate the abilities of the rest of the fey royal class(the rest of the "deck" if we're still paying attention to the playing cards metaphor) on top of their powerful foundation(being, you know, leShay).

Greenish
2011-08-04, 11:40 AM
If you have changeling as a race, then you can walk round a corner and be a completely different character, but technically only Humans and Doppelgangers can enter Chameleon. Some DMs ignore this requirement for all races, or sometimes just Changeling since they are half-doppelganger.RoD page 116:
If you're using the Eberron Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers.

Person_Man
2011-08-04, 01:45 PM
Not everyone likes to play freeform. Some people like to play by the rules.

Rule 0. DM is always right. ;)

I get the point of what you're saying ImperatorK. And in general, I'm a big fan of RAW, and of obsessive compulsive list making for the purpose of helping people with RAW builds.

But lets look at the big picture here.

Angry Bob asked for a way to change classes as a free action in a homebrew Epic-ish level campaign. There's nothing by RAW that does that, other then just playing a Tier 1ish class and duplicating the abilities of other classes with magic or Pun-Pun craziness, which in itself really doesn't help anyone "play by the rules," it just breaks the game. So I suggested that he just relax and make it up, because as a DM that's what works for me when I want to come up with something that's not published. He's free to discard that advice, which he did. But I think it's a valid point.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-08-04, 02:09 PM
You're statting out the Ace, King, Queen, all the way down to 2, right? Just make the Joker able to replicate any of those things you've already done the work for. And spell slots used as one class carry over.

Alchemistmerlin
2011-08-04, 03:31 PM
Not everyone likes to play freeform. Some people like to play by the rules.

Absolutely, and those players that are particularly stuck on rules are free to give up the player seat and come to the other side of the DMscreen. Then I will do 0 work to prepare the game and sit and critique the rules from one of the comfy player seats.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/12/13/ :smallamused:



As for the concept:
I believe GoodbyeSoberDay's suggestion is the easiest, while Person Man's is probably the most practical. If you're in the sort of "Everything must be written down" game, then just stat out that particular fey's 3 "favorite" classes, to cut back on time.

However the concern about spellcasting spellslots "refreshing" is a highly broken one given how screwed the 3.5 magic system is.

ImperatorK
2011-08-04, 03:50 PM
Some people. Yeah, DMs are people too, don't they?

Angry Bob
2011-08-04, 03:55 PM
Rule 0. DM is always right. ;)

I get the point of what you're saying ImperatorK. And in general, I'm a big fan of RAW, and of obsessive compulsive list making for the purpose of helping people with RAW builds.

But lets look at the big picture here.

Angry Bob asked for a way to change classes as a free action in a homebrew Epic-ish level campaign. There's nothing by RAW that does that, other then just playing a Tier 1ish class and duplicating the abilities of other classes with magic or Pun-Pun craziness, which in itself really doesn't help anyone "play by the rules," it just breaks the game. So I suggested that he just relax and make it up, because as a DM that's what works for me when I want to come up with something that's not published. He's free to discard that advice, which he did. But I think it's a valid point.

The main thing isn't that I don't like freeforming it or homebrew, I just want the freeforming to stop once the game starts, unless we run into something specific a PC wants to try that isn't covered by the rules, or by well-written rules. I prefer having the abilities ready to use rather than inventing them on the fly, for purposes of expediency and consistency.


You're statting out the Ace, King, Queen, all the way down to 2, right? Just make the Joker able to replicate any of those things you've already done the work for. And spell slots used as one class carry over.

I have too much free time to justify not statting the other 52. Copying their abilities was one of my ideas, and probably the one I'll end up using. Though likely only the ace, king, queen, and jack of each respective court will have abilities worth using.

Actually, another thing. The courts are the spring, summer, autumn, and winter courts, corresponding to air/spades, fire/clubs, earth/diamonds, and water/hearts respectively. I think I'll use slightly customized fey creatures for these courts, like a master of the wild hunt with a few class levels for the ace of clubs and such, perhaps a verdant prince with some druid levels for the jack of hearts. The jokers would probably end up copying a few of their best abilities rather than their classes in this case.

Lord Vampyre
2011-08-04, 05:05 PM
I have too much free time to justify not statting the other 52. Copying their abilities was one of my ideas, and probably the one I'll end up using. Though likely only the ace, king, queen, and jack of each respective court will have abilities worth using.

Actually, another thing. The courts are the spring, summer, autumn, and winter courts, corresponding to air/spades, fire/clubs, earth/diamonds, and water/hearts respectively. I think I'll use slightly customized fey creatures for these courts, like a master of the wild hunt with a few class levels for the ace of clubs and such, perhaps a verdant prince with some druid levels for the jack of hearts. The jokers would probably end up copying a few of their best abilities rather than their classes in this case.

Having them only able to duplicate the abilities of the 4 main courts is probably your best bet. However, if there are only 2 of them, then they should tend to be far more powerful than any 1 of the actual members of the court. If you simply use the stats from the other member of court, then have them add 1 to 2 to all of the applicable stats like BAB, AC, and saves. Also, you should probably keep their actual hit points static; I'd base it off of a d12 myself.

Angry Bob
2011-08-04, 05:17 PM
Having them only able to duplicate the abilities of the 4 main courts is probably your best bet. However, if there are only 2 of them, then they should tend to be far more powerful than any 1 of the actual members of the court. If you simply use the stats from the other member of court, then have them add 1 to 2 to all of the applicable stats like BAB, AC, and saves. Also, you should probably keep their actual hit points static; I'd base it off of a d12 myself.

They'd have a strong chassis(d12 HD, with full HP on each die, full BaB, all good saves, 8+int skill w/all class skills, lots of hit dice with these things, high ability scores), and then copy several or more of the other nobles' abilities onto themselves at a time. They may have their own underlings, but more likely will have action cheese ala Chokers' supernatural quickness or Demogorgon's dual actions.

HalfDragonCube
2011-08-04, 08:34 PM
RoD page 116:
If you're using the Eberron Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers.

Oh, thanks, I never noticed that.

*Plots and schemes*