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donnerdrummel
2011-08-05, 02:20 PM
i just want to hear some ideas, i m allowed to play an azer and i was thinking along the lines of monk --> dwarven defender, but am open to all ideas.

just some background information about the party.

rogue - doing okay so far (although hes a greedy little bastard)
barbarian - also seems to be doing good hits good good damage
cleric - the player is new to dnd mostly but so far doing okay

i myself am new to the party but not to dnd, although i have to admit the lvl of tweaking i found on the forums here impress me.
so blast away at me :)

Urpriest
2011-08-05, 02:23 PM
What level are you starting? Do you get to use LA buyoff? (Scratch that, LA on an Azer is too high for LA buyoff).

And the big question: do you understand how monsters work? If not, see my handbook, linked in my sig.

Edit: Also, Azers aren't Dwarves, so you can't be a Dwarven Defender.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-05, 03:27 PM
What level are you starting? Do you get to use LA buyoff? (Scratch that, LA on an Azer is too high for LA buyoff).

And the big question: do you understand how monsters work? If not, see my handbook, linked in my sig.

Edit: Also, Azers aren't Dwarves, so you can't be a Dwarven Defender.

i dunno what LA buyoff is
it looks like i will be lvl 2 (dm hasn t decided yet) so prolly mnk 2.
and i know that an azer is an outsider(fire) but my dm is okay with houseruling them as dwarfs.
i thought i understood fully how monsters work...untill i clicked on that link in your sig ;)
for real - i read the according hANDBOOK and have dmed my self often enough to know most of the info contained in that amazing thing.
and i am skimmimg thru it to get the important stuff for me out of it.

BillyBobJoe
2011-08-05, 03:43 PM
You can't be an Azer at 2nd level because it has 2 racial hit dice, and 4 LA, giving it a total of 6 levels before having any class levels. If the game started at 7th level, you would have 1 level of monk, two outsider hit dice, and 4 LA, meaning those 4 levels are skipped.

TroubleBrewing
2011-08-05, 03:51 PM
If you're open to all ideas, avoid Monk and DD like the plague.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-05, 04:34 PM
You can't be an Azer at 2nd level because it has 2 racial hit dice, and 4 LA, giving it a total of 6 levels before having any class levels. If the game started at 7th level, you would have 1 level of monk, two outsider hit dice, and 4 LA, meaning those 4 levels are skipped.

yeah to be more exact i would have two (2) lvls on top of the azer.



If you're open to all ideas, avoid Monk and DD like the plague.

okay it would be really helpfull to know why i should stay away from theese and what i should build instead.

nyarlathotep
2011-08-05, 05:13 PM
okay it would be really helpfull to know why i should stay away from theese and what i should build instead.

Okay the general problem is that you have enough loss of level from level adjustment that most monk options will be out of your reach until very late in the game. Additionally being a monk gives you high speed and bonuses for not wearing armor, while dwarven defender gives bonuses for not moving and wearing heavy armor. This means that you class combination has little to no synergy and the given classes are individually weak to begin with. I wouldn't say it is impossible, just highly difficult and counterproductive.

In general deepstone sentinel works better for the idea that of a heavily armored dwarf who prevents enemies from harming his allies.

Kantolin
2011-08-05, 05:26 PM
okay it would be really helpfull to know why i should stay away from theese and what i should build instead.

Monks do not hit terribly hard - their 'I can fight unarmed' schtick tends to not hit as well as, say, a fighter power attacking with a greatsword, especially with their more poor BAB.

They then are particularly bad Dwarven Defenders, as they have a lot of mobility. At least in theory - another problem is that their flurry of blows and their fast movement are contrary to each other - you can't move quickly and flurry. Monk is probably not a good idea to stick to.


Dwarven Defenders, now, require some communication between you and your DM. If your DM has monsters tend to attack closer targets or you have lynchpoints, then dwarven defender is an acceptable option.

If your DM has monsters who glance at frontliners, decide they don't care, and will always go a distance around them to focus on people who look squishy... then personally, I'd still be a DD, and use a hat of disguise to look like I'm wearing a cape/dress and pointy hat, and have the wizard pick up a greatsword. :P

But anyway, if the DM decides that all people will ignore anyone who uses defensive stance, then DD becomes far less useful.

Regardless, DD isn't the ultimate class or anything, but it does things. Try to ensure you have a reach weapon - an umbrella of safety will likely help you more than a shield when you can't move around. Psychic warrior may be a good entry class - it's on the official SRD (and Right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)), and can use the 'expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)' power (Essentially enlarge person self), which will help you hit an increased range.

It also allows you to be in (spiked) full plate, which is probably more dwarvey.

Jade Dragon
2011-08-05, 05:36 PM
Okay the general problem is that you have enough loss of level from level adjustment that most monk options will be out of your reach until very late in the game. Additionally being a monk gives you high speed and bonuses for not wearing armor, while dwarven defender gives bonuses for not moving and wearing heavy armor. This means that you class combination has little to no synergy and the given classes are individually weak to begin with. I wouldn't say it is impossible, just highly difficult and counterproductive.

In general deepstone sentinel works better for the idea that of a heavily armored dwarf who prevents enemies from harming his allies.

This. And avoid monk because your FoB will never hit. You don't get a magic item bonus (well, at least not with our paying double for an amulet of mighty fists) and only 3/4 BAB. Did I mention you have to have high wisdom and dexterity, above average constitution and strength, and can't dump intelligence if you're a monk? Go fighter with unarmed strike feats (improved unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike and snap kick from ToB, and flying kick from CWar).

Greenish
2011-08-05, 05:43 PM
(well, at least not with our paying double for an amulet of mighty fists)Amulet's triple the price of equivalent weapon.

Necklace of Natural Weapons is the same as a normal weapon.

BenInHB
2011-08-05, 05:46 PM
Reading the first post I immediately thought Troll. But in subsequent post you seem very genuine.

So, what attracted you to your origional idea of a Azer Monk Dwarven Defender?? What do you want/expect him to be able to do?? Why do you like it??

If you give us that kind of info we can help you make a character that can do pretty much anything you want.

Zonugal
2011-08-05, 06:10 PM
I honestly think looking at the advantages and overall strengths the Azer brings that an unarmed swordsage focusing on desert wind and stone dragon techniques might be an awesome choice synergy-wise.

Throwing around fire while punching through stone obstacles, totally the Azer thing to do.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-05, 06:18 PM
okay first ty all for the replies :)


Reading the first post I immediately thought Troll. But in subsequent post you seem very genuine.

So, what attracted you to your origional idea of a Azer Monk Dwarven Defender?? What do you want/expect him to be able to do?? Why do you like it??

If you give us that kind of info we can help you make a character that can do pretty much anything you want.

my dm offered the azer to me he was an npc the party had just met last session without me and he said i coul flesh him out if i want to.
i ve never before played an azer but i like the race.

looking at the racial stats i saw that it had a high natural ac bonus and nice stat bonuses for low level. so i thought why not try an high ac build.
i have played an dd some years ago and liked it but i didn t wabnt it to be a fighter(again) and so (for reasons of saves and evasion) i thought about going monk especially i get the flaming ability for "free" from the azers heat quality.
so i guess what i m looking for is something tanky high ac nice saves eventually evasion.
since i don t know my dm to well yet i don t know which completes are okay and which not.
but i m good at sales and i can somewhat balance my characters to fit a party.
ps: i m not above playing a caster too btw i m just fishing for ideas here
pps: and no i m not trolling (intentionally)

Zonugal
2011-08-05, 06:22 PM
Can you tell us what the rest of the party is composed of?

NNescio
2011-08-05, 06:22 PM
Monks do not hit terribly hard - their 'I can fight unarmed' schtick tends to not hit as well as, say, a fighter power attacking with a greatsword, especially with their more poor BAB.

They then are particularly bad Dwarven Defenders, as they have a lot of mobility. At least in theory - another problem is that their flurry of blows and their fast movement are contrary to each other - you can't move quickly and flurry. Monk is probably not a good idea to stick to.


Dwarven Defenders, now, require some communication between you and your DM. If your DM has monsters tend to attack closer targets or you have lynchpoints, then dwarven defender is an acceptable option.

If your DM has monsters who glance at frontliners, decide they don't care, and will always go a distance around them to focus on people who look squishy... then personally, I'd still be a DD, and use a hat of disguise to look like I'm wearing a cape/dress and pointy hat, and have the wizard pick up a greatsword. :P

But anyway, if the DM decides that all people will ignore anyone who uses defensive stance, then DD becomes far less useful.

Regardless, DD isn't the ultimate class or anything, but it does things. Try to ensure you have a reach weapon - an umbrella of safety will likely help you more than a shield when you can't move around. Psychic warrior may be a good entry class - it's on the official SRD (and Right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)), and can use the 'expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)' power (Essentially enlarge person self), which will help you hit an increased range.

It also allows you to be in (spiked) full plate, which is probably more dwarvey.

As summed up succinctly here:



What makes Dwarven Defender bad?

Walking briskly away.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-05, 06:31 PM
Can you tell us what the rest of the party is composed of?

rogue - doing okay so far (although hes a greedy little bastard)
barbarian - also seems to be doing good hits good good damage
cleric - the player is new to dnd mostly but so far doing okay

Zonugal
2011-08-05, 06:31 PM
If your DM is allowing you to be counted as a dwarf for all-qualifying purposes perhaps look at the Deepwarden from Races of Stone and the Deepstone Sentinel from Tome of Battle.

Jade Dragon
2011-08-05, 06:33 PM
rogue - doing okay so far (although hes a greedy little bastard)
barbarian - also seems to be doing good hits good good damage
cleric - the player is new to dnd mostly but so far doing okay

I think he meant more details about them, beyond their class and the fact that they're doing "okay" because we don't know what okay is for your group.

Greenish
2011-08-05, 06:34 PM
rogue - doing okay so far (although hes a greedy little bastard)
barbarian - also seems to be doing good hits good good damage
cleric - the player is new to dnd mostly but so far doing okayAnd what level/races are they?

[Edit]: Curse you and your sneaky ways, Swiftmongoose!

JaronK
2011-08-05, 06:40 PM
I'm going to second both Deepstone Sentinel and Deepwarden. They'll actually do what you want, while Monk/DD will just leave you with a character that can't do anything at all.

JaronK

donnerdrummel
2011-08-05, 06:41 PM
And what level/races are they?
[Edit]: Curse you and your sneaky ways, Swiftmongoose!

ah okay mind you i was only partaking in 1 session but i tell you what i know. the barb is a halforc barbarian 6 i think and he dishes out damage in the mid twenties with PA.
the cleric is lvl 6 too can t tell you more about him as he was holding back.
the rogue is lvl 7 with high sneak and trap skills and low to no damage besides his sneak attack his bluff is fairly good too.

thats why i thought something hard to hit would be a nice addition.

Greenish
2011-08-05, 06:47 PM
Well, another frontliner shouldn't hurt, though even coming in at 8 ECL you'll only be sporting four HD.

Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4), as mentioned, is an excellent PrC (if you count as a dwarf). Easiest entry would be three levels in ranger, maybe trying to trade the combat style feat to something more useful (such as PA).

Zonugal
2011-08-05, 06:51 PM
What type of campaign/game is it? Because right now it looks like your party is lacking a basic, utility mage but Azers aren't exactly built for casting.

The important thing in building your Azer into a melee character is to avoid stepping on the toes of the Barbarian.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-05, 07:01 PM
Well, another frontliner shouldn't hurt, though even coming in at 8 ECL you'll only be sporting four HD.

Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4), as mentioned, is an excellent PrC (if you count as a dwarf). Easiest entry would be three levels in ranger, maybe trying to trade the combat style feat to something more useful (such as PA).


hm hm the deepwarden based on a psych warrior is not to shabby :)


What type of campaign/game is it? Because right now it looks like your party is lacking a basic, utility mage but Azers aren't exactly built for casting.

The important thing in building your Azer into a melee character is to avoid stepping on the toes of the Barbarian.

atm the group is exploring the holdings of a mage who seems to have disapeared.

and yeah i was thinking mage at first too but i always play casters and wanted to break this hellish circle ;) (seriously: i will play a mage too but i m looking for ways to improve the party significantly without playing an arcane)

and yeah i wouldn t want to step on a horc barbs toes which was the other reason for me not looking for a high damage build but rather an ac_ish one.

Jade Dragon
2011-08-05, 07:35 PM
and yeah i was thinking mage at first too but i always play casters and wantedto break this hellish circle ;) (seriously: i will play a mage too but i m looking for ways to improve the party significantly without playing an arcane)

Why don't you just play a divine caster? Still allows you to play a melee warrior with 3/4 BAB and buffs.

ericgrau
2011-08-05, 08:02 PM
Both classes get monumental amounts of undeserved flak in these forums, but even so I don't think your particular race/class combo is that great. Non-touch AC helps but only goes so far on the monk, monks are good at tumbling to a selected target... who probably isn't standing in a dungeon choke point. While not essential reach or range weapons would be nice when you do clog the hallway. At least you get combat reflexes. DD might be an ok dip for a monk without LA, so then you get AC, HP and saves but rarely use the defensive stance, and you don't want to progress beyond the dip.

Azer has high stats, especially defensively but also all round, at a likewise high LA so a fighter, barbarian, paladin or ranger seems best. From there you could go into dwarven defender if you want, probably grabbing large size or a reach weapon or else simply taking DD for the nice stats and using the stance only on rare occasion. Since it grants uncanny dodge, thrives on heavy armor and so on the PrC is probably better on a fighter or paladin than a barbarian or ranger. Dipping both deepwarden and DD could be nice. You'll keep full BAB, get a +4 to both fort and will saves, and if you get uncanny dodge twice it becomes improved uncanny dodge; no need to take either class too far to get it. Probably grab deepwarden 2 ASAP for stone warden so you don't need dex, then DD 1 asap for the saves and AC. Then maybe DW to 4, DD to 2, then DW 5, or stop at DW 2 and DD 1 and get something else entirely.

SR creates a minor but fixable issue with healing. Healing tends to be a waste of time anyway, except in emergencies. Potions bypass SR, so carry a major healing potion or a potion of invisibility or etc. for emergencies. But with your AC, SR and general stats from the martial class levels, emergencies won't be too common. Other than that SR is awesomesauce; pick something a bit beefier than a monk and you should be somewhat untouchable.

That said with only 4 levels (2 racial HD + 2 class levels) you might be a little fragile at first until you gain a couple more levels. Maybe be a little cautious and grab something like improved toughness or an amulet of health or some such to start.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-06, 06:52 AM
okay and if i were to make say a wizard ?
what would be the way to go then ?
how about a ray elementalist ? does that even make sense ?

faceroll
2011-08-06, 08:06 AM
I've found good high AC tanks have a way to make things attack them- typically through tripping. If you can create an area of lockdown, monsters will end up being forced to attack you, as attempts to go elsewhere means they can't attack anything.

Get yourself improved trip, knockdown, combat reflexes and a spiked chain. Make sure that on a hit, the minimum damage you do is 10. You always get a trip attempt, for free, when you do 10 damage and have imp. trip. Then, if you successfully trip, you get another attack. Cool, eh?

Also see if you can't get your DM to give you an Azer with like only 1 or 2 LA, instead of 4. They have not much of anything going for them. 4LA will make them pretty much impossible to play in a party with level 9 characters. 2d8+con mod HP is just screaming death from anything.

Better yet, play as an aasimar or tiefling. They are outsiders with 1 LA. Then use the 2nd level wiz/sorc spell alter self to turn into a dwarf ancestor:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3

+18 natural armor, **** yeah!


okay and if i were to make say a wizard ?
what would be the way to go then ?
how about a ray elementalist ? does that even make sense ?

Scorching Ray is a very solid spell, especially with the metamagic feat split ray. With a 3rd level spell slot, at level 7, you deal 16d6 with 4 4d6 rays of fire.

Energy Ray, a psionic power, is really, really solid. Psions actually make really great evoker stylle blasters, imo, because they can nova a little better, change their energy types on the fly, and get marginally better damaging spells.

If you were to play as a tiefling

Greenish
2011-08-06, 08:56 AM
Better yet, play as an aasimar or tiefling. They are outsiders with 1 LA.The chaos frogs (neraphim or something like that) are +0 LA outsiders.

faceroll
2011-08-06, 09:58 AM
The chaos frogs (neraphim or something like that) are +0 LA outsiders.

Oh yeah, plus they get a pretty neat ability. You can buy of the LA on the planetouched, though, for decent stat boosts. Which I rather like.

ericgrau
2011-08-06, 10:46 AM
okay and if i were to make say a wizard ?
what would be the way to go then ?
how about a ray elementalist ? does that even make sense ?
Then you'd want something without LA or racial HD, or else with at least +6 dexterity (or +4 dexterity and small size) in trade for 1 LA tops. Halflings make good ray casters since they effectively get +2 to hit (+1 from the +2 dex, +1 from size). They also make good arcane trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm)s or spellwarp snipers, which are sneak attack ray casters. These are even better at switching element type since everything gets a lot of sneak attack damage, even cantrips. Thus even acid splash becomes useful so you can use any spell of any element you want and still do well.

A pure caster is limited mostly to scorching ray and polar ray, or else you have to go to spell compendium to get all the orb of X element spells. Even then you often do less damage than the party fighter, so you're mainly useful against things with DR or some such. Area damage tends to be better. In either case empowered, quickened, etc. rays are good. If you add other spells instead of damage only, then a pure caster could be effective too. For example some necromancies like [empowered] rays of enfeeblement, enervation, energy drain, disintegrate to kill undead,etc. If you add weapon finesse then you can also get shocking grasp (until level 5), chill touch (against undead), bestow curse, [empowered] touch of idiocy, vampiric touch and my personal favorite: irresistible dance. Hmm, this is really lending itself to a necromancer.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-06, 05:01 PM
hm the high ac tripper sounds like fun too never used trip much until now :)
any recomendations as to what to use to achive it ?
lets say i can get my dm to let me lower the LA to 2.

i just found the malconvoker and he sounds like fun too.
any thoughts ?

donnerdrummel
2011-08-08, 11:48 AM
doppelpost in hope of getting a few more knowledge drops out of you guys ;)

Jade Dragon
2011-08-08, 12:23 PM
hm the high ac tripper sounds like fun too never used trip much until now :)
any recomendations as to what to use to achive it ?
lets say i can get my dm to let me lower the LA to 2.

Improved Trip. Two levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian if you don't qualify for Combat Expertise. Combat Reflexes. Spiked chain, though any reach weapon with trip + spiked gauntlet/armor spikes works.

ZombiePunch
2011-08-08, 10:47 PM
Are you dead set on using full blown Azer?
Azerblood is a race from Dragon Magazine issue 350 pg 50
and it only has a +1 LA

^_^

ZombiePunch
2011-08-08, 11:03 PM
You could also look into a deepwarden/fist of the forest build giving you 2xCon bonus to ac.

The dragon shen prestige class also works well with your monk levels and gives you great fortitude as a bonus feat which you need for Fist of the Forest.

donnerdrummel
2011-08-12, 06:00 PM
hmm gonna check out those
ty for the ideas