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Darkweave31
2011-08-07, 01:27 PM
Not sure if anyone has made a real attempt at this yet (i couldn't find one) but here's mine at making a paladin variant based on the mystic ranger (dragon 336).

HD: d10
Skills: as standard paladin plus spellcraft as a class skill
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Proficient with all simple weapons and martial melee weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
BAB: as standard paladin
Saves: as standard paladin

Class Features:

Level-- Features (all features function as the standard paladin features)
1------- Aura of Good , detect evil
2------- Smite Evil 1/day , Divine Grace
3------- Lay on Hands, Divine Health
4------- Aura of Courage, Turn Undead
5-------
6------- Remove Disease 1/week
7------- Smite Evil 2/day
8-------
9------- Remove Disease 2/week
10-----
11-----
12----- Remove Disease 3/week
13-----
14----- Smite Evil 3/day
15----- Remove Disease 4/week
16-----
17-----
18----- Remove Disease 5/week
19-----
20----- Smite Evil 4/day


Spells:

A Mystic Paladin casts divine spells. The mystic paladin casts 1st- through 4th-level spells from the paladin spell list. His 0-level spell list consists of 0-level cleric spells. His 5th-level spell list consists of Atonement, Dismissal, True Seeing, Righteous Might, Cure Critical Wounds, Commune, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow (haven't given spell list too much thought).

Unlike a paladin, a Mystic Paladin's caster level is equal to his class level. (just to avoid any CL confusion :smalltongue:)

Spells Per Day:
Level - 0/1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th
1 - 2
2 - 2/1
3 - 2/2
4 - 3/2/1
5 - 3/2/2
6 - 3/3/2/1
7 - 4/3/2/2
8 - 4/3/3/2/1
9 - 4/4/3/2/2
10 - 4/4/3/3/2/1
11 - 4/4/4/3/2/2
12 - 4/4/4/3/3/2
13 - 5/4/4/4/3/2
14 - 5/4/4/4/3/3
15 - 5/5/4/4/4/3
16 - 5/5/4/4/4/3
17 - 5/5/5/4/4/4
18 - 5/5/5/4/4/4
19 - 5/5/5/5/4/4
20 - 5/5/5/5/4/4


So there it is. Thoughts?

eftexar
2011-08-07, 01:36 PM
Alright, I'll try to objective, even though I dislike how the paladin class is built. Comparing it to the paladin, it is balanced fairly well. The lessened progression in smite and the slight delay in obtaining some of the abilities makes up for the higher number of spells. It remains slightly more powerful though, because it has access to higher level spells.

gorfnab
2011-08-07, 01:43 PM
Consider removing Wall of Stone and adding Atonement and Dismissal to the list of 5th level spell list. Other than that, it looks fairly comparable in design and balance to the Mystic Ranger.

Talya
2011-08-07, 01:49 PM
Give her back her special mount. It's the main reason to play a paladin, anyway, the only class ability they get that's really worth much.

Cut "remove disease" progression (maybe completely) as a consequence.

Garryl
2011-08-07, 03:10 PM
I tried doing something similar (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8377) a long time ago, although I lost focus midway through and gave it a bunch of domain-related abilities and 6th-level spells (as per the Bard) to fill out the higher levels and power it up a bit. You may be able to glean something from the spell list, at least. There are numerous spells from the Cleric list that a stronger casting Paladin should probably have, even from 1st to 4th level.

gorfnab
2011-08-07, 11:56 PM
Give her back her special mount. It's the main reason to play a paladin, anyway, the only class ability they get that's really worth much.

Cut "remove disease" progression (maybe completely) as a consequence.
Well if your trying to base this off the Mystic Ranger loosing the Mount makes some sense since the Mystic Ranger does not have an Animal Companion.

Talya
2011-08-08, 06:58 AM
The ranger animal companion sucks, and is a 2-bit add-on the ranger is probably better off trading out for an ACF if they can, or else they forget it exists most of the time. Conversely, the Paladin special mount is actually by far their best, most defining class feature. (Which isn't saying much, but you take what you can get.)

Darkweave31
2011-08-08, 08:38 AM
I agree that the special mount is a greater sacrifice than a ranger's animal companion, but I can't justify giving the Mystic Paladin the full class ability. However, a fair amount of paladin spells are specifically for the special mount. In terms of flavor I agree that it is a defining class feature.

So I could give it later with benefits at -3 paladin level like Garryl did with his devoted paladin. But I did think of something else as an alternative.


Level 5 Horsemaster (Ex)
Though a Mystic Paladin does not have the ability to call a mount from the celestial realms, he still has a strong bond with his mounts. The Mystic Paladin may designate one animal he can ride as his chosen mount. This animal must have HD equal to or less than the Mystic Paladin, be willing to bear him, and have spent at least one week in training with him. A chosen mount is treated as a normal paladinís special mount for the purpose of the Mystic Paladinís spells that have specific effects on a special mount. The chosen mount gains bonus HP equal to the Mystic Paladinís class level + charisma modifier (if positive) and has Link (as a druidís animal companion).

Level 10 Beastmaster (Ex)
A Mystic Paladin can designate a magical beast as his chosen mount as if it were an animal, with the same benefits and limitations.

Level 15 Dragonmaster (Ex)
A Mystic Paladin can designate a dragon as his chosen mount as if it were an animal, with the same benefits and limitations. (Remember, must be willing :smalltongue:)

Not sure at all how this works balance-wise, but I think it could be a very fun RP-focused alternative. You have to find the animal, earn its trust, train it, then ride it proudly into battle. I think it'd be rewarding.

Talya
2011-08-08, 09:05 AM
I wouldn't want to ride a beast with that low hit point totals at high levels. Imagine casting winged mount on a horse with +25 hit points from the normal? One hit to the thing and you're falling for max damage.

Let's compare it to a reasonable, not overpowered feat: Wild Cohort. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) If you can get a better mount by way of a feat, there's something wrong with the class feature. I think if you're not using the paladin mount table, wild cohort should be the weakest you consider making the mount. Heck, just give the paladin Wild Cohort as a bonus feat, for mounts only, and allow it to count as a paladin's special mount for the purpose of spells that affect it.

I don't think you should attempt to balance this against the existing paladin, which is the problem. Even the paladin's mount is not as powerful as, say, a druid's animal companion. Yet the druid also gains full spellcasting to 9th level and wildshape (and wildshape alone is more powerful than all of a paladin's class features together.) Of course, I'm also not suggesting you balance this against the druid. Somewhere in between would be good.

Vladislav
2011-08-08, 12:11 PM
5th level spell list needs moar True Seeing.

Darkweave31
2011-08-09, 08:16 AM
I don't think you should attempt to balance this against the existing paladin, which is the problem. Even the paladin's mount is not as powerful as, say, a druid's animal companion. Yet the druid also gains full spellcasting to 9th level and wildshape (and wildshape alone is more powerful than all of a paladin's class features together.) Of course, I'm also not suggesting you balance this against the druid. Somewhere in between would be good.

My only goal for this was to make a paladin acf that was roughly analogous to the mystic ranger, not to make a paladin fix. I'll leave that up to those more experienced than myself. Can you suggest a class feature that is of similar value to a special mount that could be given up instead? I think we all know remove disease won't cut it :smallamused:

Thanks for the spell suggestions, I think I'll add them to the list :smallsmile:

Greenish
2011-08-09, 09:09 AM
I notice it falls into same "trap" as mystic ranger: the spellcasting keeps up with full casters (in terms of spell level advancement) to level 10, then after that you just gain a few more uses of the same spells.

I'd consider giving it 0-6 spells with bard's advancement, and with some thematic spells given as lower level spells than they are for the cleric.

Also, the casting should be cha-based.