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Rossebay
2011-08-07, 11:00 PM
And I'm only at level 1.

It isn't so much that I can't do anything with my character, it's that I really don't want to.

He's a Raptoran Barbarian with the Pounce class feature. My feats are Reckless Rage, Extra Rage, and Extended Rage.
Flaws are Vulnerable and Inattentive.
My scores are:
Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Role: Forward Attack, main tank, and chaser.

The rest of my party:
-Asherati Monk
-Human Warlock
-Spellscale Bard
-Elf Rogue
-Tortle Druid with Wolf pet

The party is pretty low OP. And by pretty low, I mean we're taking classes based on RP sense and such.
I don't think I want to be a Barbarian. Sure, rage is good, but I want to take the Stormtalon PrC for flavor reasons, but that's honestly all I've figured out.

Some ideas I've had:
-Take a level of Psion, or two. Maybe 3. Max 4. It'd be nice to gain the extra powers, but the loss of 2 BAB sort of smarts.
-Grab a couple levels of Duskblade. No BAB loss before the grand reveal of Stormtalon, and some decent spells, and with Intelligence-based casting, I benefit from up to second level spells.
-Go Fighter for 2, get PA and Improved Bull Rush, and go normal ubercharger.
-Level up as an Archivist for a few.
-Or, take Artificer for a little.
-Finally, I could take a couple levels of StP Erudite, then go for a Gishy PrC.

Those are a few ideas, but I'm really looking for your input here, Giant. What would be a good way to move on from this? I'm alright with spellcasting, shapeshifting, melee... Really anything.
Just give me some interesting ideas. :]

Greenish
2011-08-07, 11:17 PM
Totem Rager.

Rossebay
2011-08-07, 11:36 PM
Totem Rager.

Ahh, there's one thing I'm not looking for. The Incarnum system isn't much my style.
Also, totem rager is a bit too heavily focused on the bestial side of things. Raging, at most, represents adrenaline rushes for my character.

Greenish
2011-08-07, 11:38 PM
Tome of Battle?

Rossebay
2011-08-07, 11:44 PM
Tome of Battle?

Banned in this campaign, sadly.

Elboxo
2011-08-07, 11:56 PM
Wow that's quite a mix you want there, you'd be needing about 14 int a to do the casting as psion/archivist, i havn't heard of stormtalon before. Sounds like a strange mixture of classes there, are you taking archivist for making use of ranger spells at lower levels to boost yourself or for utility? Cause your hp is gonna go 1d12 + 2d4 + 2d8 + 2d10 + 3d6 = avg of 41hp ( 6 + 5 + 9 + 11 + 10 )
+ con ( 41 + [2x10] = 61 ) as a level 10 charger/caster hybrid you will be low on hp, will be suffering from spell failure chance and ultimately not be incredibly useful. Sounds like what you want to do is play cleric with spell domain and war domain to get weapons and extra spells ( anyspell, lesser and greater in the spell compendium ) or druid/barbarian could work, feats can optimize your casting or charging, your choice, but i think you are forgetting spell failure chance and low hp if you want to go into casting

Curmudgeon
2011-08-07, 11:57 PM
How are you going to pick a target to attack if you can't make Spot checks to gain line of sight as required for charge attacks? The DC to Spot a Large creature in plain sight is 0 and your WIS modifier is +0, then you have skill penalties of -1 per 10' of distance, and -4 from your flaw. Smaller targets are going to be harder to see, of course (+4 DC for each size smaller than Large).

Yeah, I think you've hit a dead end, all right. Too bad you can't hit most enemies. :smalltongue:

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 12:15 AM
How are you going to pick a target to attack if you can't make Spot checks to gain line of sight as required for charge attacks? The DC to Spot a Large creature in plain sight is 0 and your WIS modifier is +0, then you have skill penalties of -1 per 10' of distance, and -4 from your flaw. Smaller targets are going to be harder to see, of course (+4 DC for each size smaller than Large).

Yeah, I think you've hit a dead end, all right. Too bad you can't hit most enemies. :smalltongue:

Hahaha. I don't care about spotting anything. The party's Monk, Rogue, Druid, and Bard are all trained in spot. They can easily point it out to me. Also, by my DM's ruling, spot is really only used in shadowy areas, when foes are far away, or when someone is hiding. As far as spotting goes, I have absolutely nothing to worry about.
I'm also trained in spot, 4 ranks, so whatever.





Wow that's quite a mix you want there, you'd be needing about 14 int a to do the casting as psion/archivist, i havn't heard of stormtalon before. Sounds like a strange mixture of classes there, are you taking archivist for making use of ranger spells at lower levels to boost yourself or for utility? Cause your hp is gonna go 1d12 + 2d4 + 2d8 + 2d10 + 3d6 = avg of 41hp ( 6 + 5 + 9 + 11 + 10 )
+ con ( 41 + [2x10] = 61 ) as a level 10 charger/caster hybrid you will be low on hp, will be suffering from spell failure chance and ultimately not be incredibly useful. Sounds like what you want to do is play cleric with spell domain and war domain to get weapons and extra spells ( anyspell, lesser and greater in the spell compendium ) or druid/barbarian could work, feats can optimize your casting or charging, your choice, but i think you are forgetting spell failure chance and low hp if you want to go into casting

I'm not planning on going with all of those ideas at once, haha.

In order to manifest Psionic powers, I only need a score of at least 10. With a score of 12, I can easily manifest psionics.
As far as Archivist goes, in order to cast a spell, your intelligence must be 10+spell level to cast it. As mine is 12, I can indeed cast up to 2nd level spells.

And finally, none of the classes I've mentioned suffer from spell failure. Duskblade can wear light (later medium) armor without spell failure. Psion and Archivist (Psionic and Divine) do not suffer spell failure of any sort.

And again, I'd only be going with one of those options, not all of them. So either Barbarian/Duskblade, or Barbarian/Psion, or Barbarian/Archivist.
I also just realized that Artificer could work nicely as well.

Elboxo
2011-08-08, 01:30 AM
Ah you prove me wrong, the light armour yes yes
but for more than 2nd level spells you'll want more int.
Still low how though bro. Artificer is always nice, as long as your DM allows it, depends how many levels you go into it i guess
I'd say barbarian duskblade unless you take only one level in psion and buff yourself, the hp/BaB loss is a difficult hit past 2-3 levels

Greenish
2011-08-08, 01:34 AM
In order to manifest Psionic powers, I only need a score of at least 10.It's 10+level of the power to manifest. There are no 0th level powers.


With a score of 12, I can easily manifest psionics.1st and 2nd level powers only, and your PP will be hurting.


Barbarian/DuskbladeI think you can qualify for Rage Mage with that. I'll check.

[Edit]: Yeah, duskblade even gets the prerequisite feat for free. Only take one level though, that'll let you cast (and channel) while raging.

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 06:53 AM
It's 10+level of the power to manifest. There are no 0th level powers.

1st and 2nd level powers only, and your PP will be hurting.

I'm fine with that, I'd just concentrate on Psychoportation or something similar if I did it. Utility.



I think you can qualify for Rage Mage with that. I'll check.

[Edit]: Yeah, duskblade even gets the prerequisite feat for free. Only take one level though, that'll let you cast (and channel) while raging.

Sweet! I'll check this out. Channeling is definitely useful, so I'll probably go for this combo.

Edit: Aaahhhh, VERY nice one level dip. I'm alright with that class. This gets me CC, Armored Mage (Medium), and Channel Spell, as well as Quick Cast and the ability to cast and channel while raging by level 7. Sooo cool. I might (probably will) take Abjurant Champion after this, too. And Chaos Rage as a feat, of course.
That'll actually work out quite nicely. Barbarian level 13 for rage purposes by level 20, Caster Level 20 (when raging), Caster level 19(when not), SPD level 9, though. :[ Aaaaand, BAB 19.

TurtleKing
2011-08-08, 06:57 AM
If you do go with Barbarian/Duskblade then go upto 3rd level so you can channel through your blade.

Serpentine
2011-08-08, 06:58 AM
What sort of character concept are you going for, or are you drawing a blank? You said you're intending to take the Stormtalon prestige class for flavour reasons. What flavour, exactly?

vampire2948
2011-08-08, 07:02 AM
Forget Fighter for bonus feats, take Psychic Warrior levels 1 and 2, and gain power points and powers in addition to two Fighter Bonus Feats.

TurtleKing
2011-08-08, 07:06 AM
One problem with Psy Warrior is the manifestation is based off of Wisdom. As such with a score of 10 he can't manifest anything.

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 07:10 AM
What sort of character concept are you going for, or are you drawing a blank? You said you're intending to take the Stormtalon prestige class for flavour reasons. What flavour, exactly?

Really drawing a blank.
I was thinking Stormtalon so that my Raptoran could join the elite military force, but I'm now realizing that I can become a 'Stormtalon' without even needing to be part of the force. Although taking a level or two for 2 Natural Attacks and an Aerial Maneuver feat (Multiattack) couldn't hurt.

Right now, I'm thinking Barbarian 1/Duskblade 5/Rage Mage 1/Stormtalon 2, for ECL 9 so far, BAB +8.

For Character Concept... I don't know yet. Right now, he's just a young Adult Raptoran on his Walk of Four Winds, finding his place in the world.




If you do go with Barbarian/Duskblade then go upto 3rd level so you can channel through your blade.

I'm definitely doing this, to Duskblade 5.




One problem with Psy Warrior is the manifestation is based off of Wisdom. As such with a score of 10 he can't manifest anything.

This is why I didn't mention PsyWar. It's a cool class, but my Wisdom is lacking.


EDIT:One final consideration is StP Erudite, though I'm not sure how much the limited number of unique powers per day would help me out. I mean, I'd have the capacity to know (by level 20) all Spells and Powers up to 5th level, so I'd be pretty powerful, but... Again, I don't know.

Serpentine
2011-08-08, 07:31 AM
For Character Concept... I don't know yet. Right now, he's just a young Adult Raptoran on his Walk of Four Winds, finding his place in the world.Well, that works. "A young raptoran youth, typical of his aerie, setting out into the world to find himself and establish his own person. He has some training in channelling his youthful temper, and wishes someday to join the ranks of the Stormtalons he so admires."
Do you really need to plan out all his levels now, or is it a low-level campaign? Not that it's bad to get an idea of where you're going with him, but it might be nice to leave some wriggle-room for character development as it comes through the campaign.

Friv
2011-08-08, 07:46 AM
I realize this is off-topic, but...


How are you going to pick a target to attack if you can't make Spot checks to gain line of sight as required for charge attacks? The DC to Spot a Large creature in plain sight is 0 and your WIS modifier is +0, then you have skill penalties of -1 per 10' of distance, and -4 from your flaw. Smaller targets are going to be harder to see, of course (+4 DC for each size smaller than Large).

Is that actually a rule? Spotting an average-sized human 60' away on a clear day is DC 10, something that an average person can only do about half the time?

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 07:50 AM
Well, that works. "A young raptoran youth, typical of his aerie, setting out into the world to find himself and establish his own person. He has some training in channelling his youthful temper, and wishes someday to join the ranks of the Stormtalons he so admires."
Do you really need to plan out all his levels now, or is it a low-level campaign? Not that it's bad to get an idea of where you're going with him, but it might be nice to leave some wriggle-room for character development as it comes through the campaign.

Yeah, that's true. But I did want to figure out a class for second level, as the Barbarian's Uncanny Dodge seemed silly to me. It's sort of a precognition thing that I didn't really want my character to have.
I also figured, with his increased intelligence, I may as well take a spellcasting level or two and cover all of the ground. I don't really have much to lose with a couple of spellcasting levels. Free utility is free utility, right? For this reason, I strongly considered Archivist or StP Erudite, but the loss of BAB and the low hit die would hurt, as I'm the party's only real tank. Duskblade seems to be the only option. Of course, as you said, this is low-level, so I'm just planning for the first 7-10 to get a feel for where I'm going with him. I wanted to dabble, really, but I can't take 2 different spellcasting classes and be really good with any of them (although Caster Level as Character Level from Spell Rage would certainly help[cure]).




As far as the Spot thing goes, I'd really only need to worry about that if my DM was a complete jerk. Which he is indeed not.

AmberVael
2011-08-08, 07:57 AM
Is that actually a rule? Spotting an average-sized human 60' away on a clear day is DC 10, something that an average person can only do about half the time?

No, it's not actually a rule. D&D 3.5 can be dumb sometimes, but this is not one of those times. Spot is only called into play when someone is hiding or otherwise difficult to see. Someone within plain sight standing within typical visual range does not provoke a spot check.

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 08:42 AM
Alright. So, I just remembered Arcane Strike, and now I'm weighing the benefits and drawbacks of Duskblade (relying on Shocking Grasp and the like, casting spontaneously) vs. Arcane Strike.
Sure, Shocking Grasp would get me (eventually) an extra 5d6 on my melee attack, but that's just one attack. If I went with, say, Beguiler and grabbed the Battle Caster feat, I get quite a bit of utility, Sorcerer-level casting (meaning a lot of spells per day to use Arcane Strike with), the ability to cast in medium armor running off of intelligence, but I'd have to devote quite a few levels to beguiler and gish PrCs before Arcane Strike became an option.

That's at least CL7, so I'd be waiting until CL 9 to even use Arcane Strike. It doesn't seem like something worth devoting an entire build towards, because I'd be juggling two party roles for 4-ish levels there.

faceroll
2011-08-08, 09:05 AM
Hmm, with all those rage feats, you're not going to want to be doing too much casting in combat.

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 09:19 AM
Hmm, with all those rage feats, you're not going to want to be doing too much casting in combat.

Yeah, that's true... Righteous Wrath would allow me to cast spells while raging, free and clear, but it doesn't really help with synergy.
Alright. So, I have a lot of ideas now, but none of them really call to me. I guess I'll just let it stew and see what happens later.

Curmudgeon
2011-08-08, 10:54 AM
And I'm only at level 1. ...
He's a Raptoran Barbarian ...

I'm also trained in spot, 4 ranks, so whatever. No, you're not. Spot is a cross-class skill for Barbarians, so you can't have more than 2 ranks at level 1. Raptorans have a racial bonus in Spot but that doesn't impact the ranks you're allowed.

Is that actually a rule? Spotting an average-sized human 60' away on a clear day is DC 10, something that an average person can only do about half the time?
Yes, that's what you get when you put the various rules together, though you're missing an important consideration. Outside of combat, a DC 10 check is something an average untrained person can do 100% of the time using "take 10". It's the combat restrictions that make things more dicey.

No, it's not actually a rule. ... Spot is only called into play when someone is hiding or otherwise difficult to see. Someone within plain sight standing within typical visual range does not provoke a spot check.
Better check again, specifically Table 4–3: Difficulty Class Examples on page 64 of your Player's Handbook. Spot is used to determine if something in plain sight is difficult for you to see.

AmberVael
2011-08-08, 11:09 AM
Spot check description:


The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

I would also further note that the DC you cite says something large in "plain sight"- it makes no mention of how far away said object is.

Point is, what is hard to see and what requires a spot check is far more DM's judgment than pure calculation, even by RAW standards.

Boci
2011-08-08, 11:14 AM
(+4 DC for each size smaller than Large).


Why I am having flashbacks? I'm pretty sure my point still stands: spot is not one of the skills mentioned as being modified by size.

Vandicus
2011-08-08, 11:14 AM
Spot check description:



I would also further note that the DC you cite says something large in "plain sight"- it makes no mention of how far away said object is.

Point is, what is hard to see and what requires a spot check is far more DM's judgment than pure calculation, even by RAW standards.

Spot is also used to determine at which point an encounter begins, in forests, deserts, and open sunny plains. The rules when it comes to open sunny plains may seem a bit weird, but its pretty clear by RAW that spot is used even in those situations. Given, I've never seen the rules actually used in open sunny plains, but only in regards to hiding characters and some of those other terrain types.

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 11:32 AM
No, you're not. Spot is a cross-class skill for Barbarians, so you can't have more than 2 ranks at level 1. Raptorans have a racial bonus in Spot but that doesn't impact the ranks you're allowed.

Yes, they do, good eye(aha, get it?)!
But, something my DM has ruled is that anyone can acquire skill ranks in spot.
So, am I trained in spot, 4 ranks? Yes, I am. Nice try, though.

Anywho, enough with the spot stuff. It's not an important point in the thread, I've already said that the DM doesn't put a large amount of notice on spot checks, and most of the party is already trained in spot, which, by our DM's standards, covers for what I lack in spot.

Now, that's all for spot, yes? It wasn't the original purpose of the thread, and the issue that was brought up has been resolved.

Curmudgeon
2011-08-08, 11:35 AM
I would also further note that the DC you cite says something large in "plain sight"- it makes no mention of how far away said object is.
The DC doesn't change, but there are penalties to your roll. From page 83:

{table=head] Condition | Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance | -1
Spotter distracted | –5[/table]

Boci
2011-08-08, 11:44 AM
Heres a thread for discussion the spot skill: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210658

Xtomjames
2011-08-08, 08:29 PM
My question is why did you focus on your rage and not on the Barbarian's other tactics? Other feats are more prudent if you can qualify for them.
For example taking the Nareph Charge (Planar Handbook) and if your DM would allow it, Spellfire Wielder (Tome of Magic) would give your Barbarian great tactical advantages in charging and against spell casters respectively.

That said some future Classes and PrCs to consider.
FOREST REEVE page 82 Complete Champion
Scout Complete Adventurer page 10

Dragonkith and Dragonslayer from Draconimicon.

Death Master (Dragon Compendium)

Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic) (this is a good base class to multiclass into)

Also the Planar handbook has some good substitution levels for the Barbarian.
I'd also check Dungeonscape for some class variants.

The Dragonlance Campaign Setting "The Master" is an interesting class to consider, especially a Master of Balance.

The Berserker PrC is a good choice if you want to focus on rage's per day.
Berserker
While there are many skilled warriors throughout the world, few can make the skin of their enemies crawl
like the berserkers. These vicious warriors have earned the fear, or at least the respect of friend and foe
alike. Those who count berserkers as enemies hesitate to even confer the title of human upon them,
referring to them often as beasts than men.
Berserkers are often used as shock troops both in their own land and when they are hired out as
mercenaries.
Hit Die: d12
Requirements
It takes a bit more than a death wish and a touch of insanity to be accepted into the ranks of the berserkers,
(though that doesn’t hurt).
Alignment: Any Chaotic.
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Toughness, Great Fortitude
THE BERSERKER
Lvl AT FT RF WL Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Rage 1/day
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Blind to Fear
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Rage 2/day
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Blind to Pain
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Rage 3/day
6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Blind to Reason
7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Rage 4/day
8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Free Action
9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Rage 5/day
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Greater Rage
Class Skills
The number of skills a berserker hones is limited indeed. Their class skills are Climb, Jump, Ride and
Swim.
Skill Points at Each Level: 1 + INT bonus
Class Features
Berserkers have the following abilities
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Berserkers can use any simple or martial weapon other than bows and
crossbows (Attacking at range is dishonorable). They are able to use shields and light armors.
Rage: Like barbarians, berserkers are known for flying into bloodthirsty frenzies, and they do it more
often. While in a rage the character gains a +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution and +2 morale bonus to will
saving throws. Unlike the barbarian, the berserker hones this fighting style as a life passion and he suffers
no penalty to his armor class while in a rage. Also unlike the barbarian the berserker must attack
something, anything, while in a rage. He can use no other skills, items or abilities unless they help him
close with his foe. They lose all reason and are as likely to attack friend as foe, so allies are advised to stay
at a distance. A berserker has difficulty coming out a rage. He must succeed at a willpower save DC 10 +
the number of rounds he was in the rage.
If the character has barbarian levels, any rages from that class stack with this one. The levels do
not stack when determining when rage related abilities are gained from either class.
Blind to Fear: While in a rage the character is immune to fear effects
Blind to Pain: While in a rage the berserker fights on even when his hit point total is negative. When he
comes out of the rage the berserker makes a saving throw DC 10 - his hit point total (remember, when you
subtract a negative you add it: A character at -5 hit points must hit DC 15 (10 - (-5)) ) or falls unconscious
immediately. If the character reaches -10 he can still fight on, though the character makes a fortitude save
DC 20 each round or perishes. A berserker that is this far gone will die when he comes out of the rage
unless a heal or greater magic is applied to him before he comes of the rage - he has been mortally
wounded but by extraordinary force of will he is still on his feet.
Blind to Reason: While in a rage the character is immune to all compulsion and mind-affecting spells.
The entrance into a rage has a chance to break such spells as well - if the character is under a mindaffecting
or compulsion effect he rolls a new saving throw when he enters the rage.
Free Action: While in a rage the berserker is immune to spells that alter his movement as per the spell free
action. This is a supernatural ability.
Greater Rage: The rage bonuses increase to +6 to Strength, a +6 to constitution and a +3 morale bonus to
willpower saves. If the character also has the barbarian class greater rage ability the bonus increases to +8
to Strength, +8 to constitution and a +4 morale bonus on willpower saves.
Ex-Berserker
A berserker who ceases to be chaotic cannot rage and cannot advance in his class.

Dragon Tome of Prestige Classes D20

I'd also have a look at the Villain's Design Book

Analysis
2011-08-08, 08:32 PM
IIRC, you can use items of +stat to meet the ability score requirements for casting or manifesting (after all, being ability damaged can remove the ability, and there is OOTS precedence... :smallbiggrin:). It's really kind of flavourful if you have to wear a mystic pendant to be sufficiently attuned to the divine to use magic, anyway...

Rossebay
2011-08-08, 09:04 PM
My question is why did you focus on your rage and not on the Barbarian's other tactics? Other feats are more prudent if you can qualify for them.
For example taking the Nareph Charge (Planar Handbook) and if your DM would allow it, Spellfire Wielder (Tome of Magic) would give your Barbarian great tactical advantages in charging and against spell casters respectively.


Why? Because I wanted to get the most that I possibly could out of rage, and then I meant to abandon it as soon as possible, picking up a couple of other interesting class abilities that would always be useful to me. It seemed to fit.


So, now I ask, what about Spell-To-Power Erudite?
Capability to learn all psionics and arcane spells is always a plus. Sure, I wouldn't be getting 9th level abilities out of this (honestly, probably nowhere past 5th), but the daily power-switching could be pretty useful.

EDIT: Also, the lack of Arcane Spell Failure (since they are indeed powers, as determined by my DM, don't bother arguing this) will be acceptable. The only issue is the lack of Unique Powers per day, but I can live with that.

Ozreth
2011-08-08, 09:57 PM
May seem like some pretty old school advice but I believe it grows more relevant as the years go by: Just play your character in funs ways and ignore what you "can" or "cant" do with feats, skills etc.

You say you guys picked your characters for RP reasons but you are still focusing on crunch and mechanics.