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View Full Version : [3.5] Kolbold Ogre/Rat Ogre and Improving Monsters



Foolster41
2011-08-11, 06:07 PM
I wanted to design some stats for some paper figures I have. I have some ratmen figures and used the stats for Kolbolds, since they are work perfectly for them. There is also in the same set a medium sized rat creature called a "rat ogre". I figured I'd take a kolbold and boost his HD and increase his size to medium. I'm not sure I really understand the non-class based improving monster rules (I asked about class-based and templete-based before). For example, adding HD and increasing size.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice

In the table for size increases, do I apply the change each time? (so do I add +4 to strength if moving from small to large (as the footnote seems to indicate), or is it like the class tables for things like BAB/saves where it's just the difference from the top?)

Here is the WIP stats block. (I also reduced hide by +4 and Move silently by +2 because of the larger size).

Kolbold Ogre/Rat Ogre (CR 1)
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 4d8+4 (22 HP)
Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+0 Dex, +1 natural, +1 Armor, +2 Hvy Wood Sheild), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+4
Attack: Spear +4 melee (1d8+1/3) or sling +3 ranged (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Spear +4 melee (1d8+1/3) or sling +3 ranged (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Craft (trapmaking) +2, Hide +1, Listen +2, Profession (miner) +2, Move Silently +0, Search +2, Spot +2
Feats: Alertness, Power Attack, Improved Sunder*

*Bonus Feat

Does this make sense, and is it right for it's CR? Thanks!

Edit: made some changes. Corrected Initiative to +0 and AC to 12 (Because of +0 Dex), adjusted skills Hide to +1 and Move Silently to -3 to match dex change and lack of +4 bonus.

Edit 2: Added Power Attack and Imrpov. Sunder feats. Fixed error of adding a size bonus to AC. Added a little armor (the picture of the figure has only a spiky leather shoulder thing). Also, supposed to be medium size. (It said Large). Changed Move Silent to +0, because that seems to make more sense to me.

Edit 3: Yeah, using medium weapons, not toothpicks. :P. Added note to added feats, as per suggested. And added heavy wood shield, since looking again at the figure pick, he has one.

Edit 4: Fixed saves and HP to be more realistic.

Mulletmanalive
2011-08-11, 07:42 PM
The able only covers shifts of one size at a time so you need to apply them in turn.

Small to medium [normally] adds +4 to Strength and then Medium to Large is another +8 [so a gross change of +12]

Hide is penalised by -8 for the two size changes and a further -2 for the -4 gross penalty to Dexterity.

I'm not a fan of those numbers as it makes Strength scores scale far faster than resilience in the form of Constitution: I prefer to just add +4 to both with each size change [and then increase the weight limit multiplier to x4].

Foolster41
2011-08-11, 10:12 PM
The Rat Ogre is medium size (I messed up and forgot to change it from small above).

I think I asked in a confusing way, mostly I was just asking how to read the table, which you answered anyway (the values are accumulated each time).

I forgot to adjust for the dex change for the skills too! :P Good catch.

Thanks.

Updating block above.

Edit: So, is this a good CR character? Change suggestions?

Greenish
2011-08-11, 11:29 PM
With 4 HD, it should have two feats, and as a medium creature it shouldn't have AC from size.

Also, since it's based on kobold, it's missing bite, claws and Slight Build.

Foolster41
2011-08-12, 05:19 AM
"and as a medium creature it shouldn't have AC from size."
Doh! How did I miss that? :P

"Also, since it's based on kobold, it's missing bite, claws and Slight Build."
I don't see anything about bite or claws on the Kolbold entry on the SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm. What power would these attacks be, 1D4+1?

And what's slight build? It's not in the SRD entry, I think your thinking of something from the "races of the Dragon" supplement book.

So now with these changes above, is it a good CR 1 creature? The two feats seem like a little much for CR 1.

Greenish
2011-08-12, 11:05 AM
"And what's slight build? It's not in the SRD entry, I think your thinking of something from the "races of the Dragon" supplement book.It's web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), actually.


So now with these changes above, is it a good CR 1 creature? The two feats seem like a little much for CR 1.Two feats is what it has from the hitdice. One at 1 HD, another at 3 HD, same rules as everything else.

Most CR 1 critters barely reach the double digits hp. And does that rat ogre have MW spear, or where is it getting +4 to hit?

Foolster41
2011-08-12, 01:18 PM
Doesn't he get +1 from the STR mod?

jguy
2011-08-12, 01:18 PM
It has +3 BAB and 13 strength. Therefor is has +4 to hit with that spear. Though it's sling should also be at +3 since it has 3 BAB and no size or dex penalty.

Edit: Your weapon sizes are wrong too. You are using the Kobolds weapons which are small. A medium spear is 1d8 and a medium sling is 1d4. Also, you will want to mention that Alertness, or any one of those feats, is a bonus feat since it has 1 more feat than normal.

Foolster41
2011-08-12, 07:21 PM
"Your weapon sizes are wrong too. You are using the Kobolds weapons which are small. A medium spear is 1d8 and a medium sling is 1d4."
Once again, Doh!

Oh and he has a shield now (since the pic has one).

So, is my CR 1 Rat Ogre ready to go? He wants to crush some skulls! :P

jguy
2011-08-12, 09:02 PM
1.) You only need to note that 1 feat is a bonus feat, not both. I suggest Alertness is the bonus feat and the others are what he trained in.

2.) You Hit-points are off by a small margin. First, his CON is 12 so he gains a bonus of 1 HP per level, not 2. Second, with the average HP for a D8 monster being 4.5. His Total HP should be at 22. (4.5*4+4)

3.) His saves look wrong with his 4 HD. A humanoids Good save is *varies as per the Monster manual, so I will go with Fort as its a front liner. So at 4HD, or 4 levels, His good save should be at +4 and bad saves at +1. So taking into account stats, it should be Fort +5 Ref +1 Will +0

While this creature has a lot of Hitdice for a CR 1, his low stats and AC with his low damage means it will make a great meatshield for smarter/stronger leaders. His Fort save is good for a CR 1 but the rest are not, so it comes down to lucky dice rolls to save even first low level stuff. He might be borderline CR 2 if it weren't for the low base stats.

Runestar
2011-08-12, 09:15 PM
A kobold warrior 4 is also cr1. You may want to compare the 2 side by side to see how yours stacks up.

If we use the npc array and +1 dex from its 4th HD, it would have (after applying modifiers) 9str, 14dex, 10con, 10int, 9wis, 8cha. We will also make use of the dragonscale husk ACF in dragon magic, since it apparently offers the best protection and has no speed reduction penalty, and I never say no to free armour.

Assuming weapon finesse as one of its 2 feats (I recommend dragonwrought for the other, to grant immunity to sleep, given its crap will save), wielding a small masterwork raper and shield, it would have the following:

1) an attack modifier of +8 (+4bab, +1size, +2dex, +1 masterwork)
2) 18hp
3) AC23 (10base, +2dex, +1size, +1NA, +7armour, +2shield) :smallamused:
4) +4fort/+3reflex/+0will
5) Ability to use any 1st lv spell as 1/day SLA.

Alternatively, you can scrap the raper+shield, and have it use its situationally superior claw/claw/bite combination.

So yeah, yours seems fairly balanced by comparison. :smallbiggrin:

jguy
2011-08-12, 09:31 PM
I have done the whole Warrior4 CR 1 kobolds to throw at my players...but by god I didn't pimp them out that much. They make a Barbarian 1 look like a pansy.

Foolster41
2011-08-12, 11:25 PM
Thanks for the feedback!

"While this creature has a lot of Hitdice for a CR 1, his low stats and AC with his low damage means it will make a great meatshield for smarter/stronger leaders."

Actually this guy is just meant to be the smarter (Well, not smarter, about the same)/stronger one compared to the Kolbolds meat shields :P

I'm planning on using these stats to maybe try to do some combat oriented battles. Just lay down some heroes and some monsters and do battle, so more of a miniatures game style.

Now I'm thinking of maybe boosting stats up to make this guy a CR 2-3. Might be more interesting considering the heroes are all level 5 (though I'm expecting to use an army of kolbolds/other stuff to go with this guy anyway).