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Handsome Goblin
2011-08-12, 08:12 PM
I was pulling out some old AD&D books and was wondering if anybody knew if there was a bard class somewhere? Thanks in advance :smallwink::smallcool:

Elvencloud
2011-08-12, 08:21 PM
*pulls out my PHB*
It's under thief in AD&D. Leveling rate as thief, with limited magic user spells, and bardic music. ^-^

Elvencloud
2011-08-12, 08:22 PM
Actually, I may be wrong. Just noticed that you had 1E in the title, not 2nd.
I thought all AD&D was the same. :)

Handsome Goblin
2011-08-12, 08:27 PM
I am not seein it under the 1E theif.

Mark Hall
2011-08-12, 08:49 PM
In 1e, the bard was in the appendix in the back... page 117, just after psionics.

To be a bard, you had to start as a human or half-elf fighter with a 15 in Strength, Wisdom, Dex and Charisma, a 12 Int and a 10 Con. You went as a normal fighter until 5-7th level (7th level is best, for the extra half-attack), then switched over to thief until 5th-9th level thief. At that point, you switched over to Bard, proper, gaining 6-sided HD, druid spells, bonus languages, a chance to charm with your music and a chance to legend lore with your knowledge... as well as all the standard druid powers.

Handsome Goblin
2011-08-12, 08:50 PM
Thanks A lot ! :smallcool::smallbiggrin:

Acanous
2011-08-12, 10:01 PM
wow, 1e bard sounds a lot more powerful than 3e bard 0.o

Shpadoinkle
2011-08-12, 10:07 PM
wow, 1e bard sounds a lot more powerful than 3e bard 0.o

It was pretty much the original Prestige Class.

Mark Hall
2011-08-13, 02:25 AM
wow, 1e bard sounds a lot more powerful than 3e bard 0.o

Quite a bit, yeah. Because levels were not directly additive, a bard would have 180k xp when starting out (if he went for maximum allowable level in both classes), which is about a 9th level wizard, or an 8th level fighter. By the time either of them crest to the next level (250k for both of them), the Bard will be a 7th level fighter, a 9th level thief, and combine the abilities of a 8th level druid and bard

MeeposFire
2011-08-13, 02:36 AM
Just don't think about how the 1/2 elf has to dual class to become a bard but a 1/2 elf can't dual class. PARADOX dun dun dun.

Gorgondantess
2011-08-13, 02:46 AM
Just don't think about how the 1/2 elf has to dual class to become a bard but a 1/2 elf can't dual class. PARADOX dun dun dun.

Yes it can. The Half-Elf can choose to either dual-class or multi-class.

MeeposFire
2011-08-13, 02:59 AM
Yes it can. The Half-Elf can choose to either dual-class or multi-class.

I am looking at my 1e AD&D book right now and on page 33 it says

"Unlike multi-class characters who are of non- or semi- human race, the character with two classes must be human"

This is about dual classing.

Under the half elf section it says they may multiclass and says nothing about dual class. So I don't see what you are talking about. Can you point me to the page where it says that? For instance I know Muls can choose and that is in the Dark Sun campaign setting.

WinWin
2011-08-13, 12:37 PM
Bards were a special case that contradicted many established rules. Such as Dual classing without requiring 15's and 17's in the various prime requisite attributes of your various classes.

Otherwise a bard would need 15 str, 17 dex, int and charisma. Their required attributes were still high, just not as unobtainable.

It may not gel with other systems perfectly, which is probably why the class was included in the appendix.

MeeposFire
2011-08-13, 06:51 PM
Bards were a special case that contradicted many established rules. Such as Dual classing without requiring 15's and 17's in the various prime requisite attributes of your various classes.

Otherwise a bard would need 15 str, 17 dex, int and charisma. Their required attributes were still high, just not as unobtainable.

It may not gel with other systems perfectly, which is probably why the class was included in the appendix.

Indeed you have to play it that way. Though it was funny since the half elf character could start dual class and then change his mind or lose stats and then stop halfway which makes the whole system show its flaws in this set of rules. 1e is silly like that though fortunately back then DMs were more flexible about that since they needed to be.

Eric Tolle
2011-08-13, 07:41 PM
1st edition Bards were based off of the Bards of celtic mythology, and were completely awesome. So much so that I've always been disappointed by later editions.

Mark Hall
2011-08-14, 01:44 PM
One thing I offered, but was never taken up on, was to allow a 1e in bard in 2e as a base class... with some modifications. Obviously, you shift the HD up one level (so you have 1d6 HD at 1st level, 2d6 at 2nd, usw), but you likewise shift the spell levels down one, and cut out the druid abilities... just charm, legend lore, spellcasting and languages, using rogue for saves and ThAC0. It's still a very potent class, but not overwhelming.

nyarlathotep
2011-08-16, 12:57 PM
wow, 1e bard sounds a lot more powerful than 3e bard 0.o

Young grasshopper does not understand the way of the 3e bard.

WinWin
2011-08-16, 02:36 PM
I would say the AD&D bard is much more powerful than the 3rd edition bard. They're pretty much druids, with extra abilities.

Talya
2011-08-16, 02:39 PM
Young grasshopper does not understand the way of the 3e bard.

Indeed. 3e bards are awe inspiring. (Wait, Inspire Awe isn't a bardsong. Perhaps I worded that wrong.)

Darthteej
2011-08-17, 10:45 PM
I never understood how it was supposed to work. You're the equivlent of a 24th level character, right?

Vectner
2011-08-17, 11:43 PM
Yeah, 1st ed bards were the most badass characters in the world. You gained a d6 hp all the way up to lvl 24. All other classes stopped gaining dice hp after 9th level or so.

It took for ever to get there also because you had to dual class twice which meant you were forced to start over at lvl 1 and couldn't use your abilities from your previous class until you leveled past it and gained dual class status. You only had your hp. I think you could start as a thief and then switch to fighter, but it works better the other way.

I had a friend who played a bard in 1st ed but surprisingly he wasn't all that effective, so he quit playing him.
Kind of foreshadowing 3rd ed, hehe

Mark Hall
2011-08-18, 01:41 PM
I never understood how it was supposed to work. You're the equivlent of a 24th level character, right?

Not quite. After you switch from fighter, you spend a period of time as a thief... and only a thief, but with HP of a fighter of your previous level. Everything (including your to-hit and saves) is that of a thief of your level. You can use your fighter abilities, but that will take away a lot of your XP for the adventure.

Once you exceed your fighter level with your thief level (or become a bard), you can fight as a fighter again, and still use your thief abilities. You also start getting HP as a thief. At that point, you're a nth level thief, plus an nth level fighter, but your total level is only counted as nth level thief.

As you climb up the bardic ladder, you get to continue to be a fighter and a thief.

Until you get to 24th level as a bard, you're never a 24th level character. It's also likely that you will fly up the early levels of thief and bard... since, by default, you get XP based on your share of the treasure, plus any XP for defeating monsters, getting the 1251 to become a 2nd level thief, or the 2001 to become a 2nd level bard will be VERY easy when backed by several levels of fighter (and thief).

Lapak
2011-08-20, 02:32 PM
I never understood how it was supposed to work. You're the equivlent of a 24th level character, right?1e (and 2e) dual-classing worked differently. If you dual-classed from Fighter to Thief after level 10, you didn't have to gain the experience for 11th level to advance; you had to gain the experience that a *1st level thief* would need to get to 2nd level. Given that you're presumably still hanging out with your 10th-level party, that won't take long. In fact, since thieves advance faster than fighters, and the first 10 or so levels require roughly doubling your experience each time, you might get up to 10th level in thief before you would have reached Fighter 11 (I'd have to go back and check to be sure.)

MeeposFire
2011-08-21, 06:37 PM
1e (and 2e) dual-classing worked differently. If you dual-classed from Fighter to Thief after level 10, you didn't have to gain the experience for 11th level to advance; you had to gain the experience that a *1st level thief* would need to get to 2nd level. Given that you're presumably still hanging out with your 10th-level party, that won't take long. In fact, since thieves advance faster than fighters, and the first 10 or so levels require roughly doubling your experience each time, you might get up to 10th level in thief before you would have reached Fighter 11 (I'd have to go back and check to be sure.)

Umm I don't know where you are getting your information but in my 1e PHB it says

"At such time as the character has attained a level of experience in his or her new class which exceeds the character's former class level, the following benefits are gained...

2. The character may mix functions freely and still gain experience...

After attaining 6th level, the player (fighter) switches the character to magic user... When 7th level of experience is gained, however, the character gets a four-sided hit die..."

So in 1e, just like in 2e, you had to exceed your first classes level to use your old class abilities without penalty.

Mark Hall
2011-08-21, 11:01 PM
I read Lapak and Meepo as saying the same thing. Lapak meant, if I read him correctly, that going to 2nd level thief didn't require the XP to get to 11th level fighter, just the amount to reach 2nd level thief.

MeeposFire
2011-08-22, 01:27 AM
I read Lapak and Meepo as saying the same thing. Lapak meant, if I read him correctly, that going to 2nd level thief didn't require the XP to get to 11th level fighter, just the amount to reach 2nd level thief.

Ah didn't think of that possibility as I knew that they have seperate tables so I did not think of trying to think the levels that way. I guess it helps when you start in 2e.

Lapak
2011-08-22, 04:05 PM
I read Lapak and Meepo as saying the same thing. Lapak meant, if I read him correctly, that going to 2nd level thief didn't require the XP to get to 11th level fighter, just the amount to reach 2nd level thief.Indeed. I deliberately left out 'fighter' in the bit about 11th level in an attempt to create contrast with how 3e runs things, but by the time I finished the sentence that concept hadn't been communicated clearly enough.

But yes, that was what I was getting at!

Amphetryon
2011-08-28, 03:28 PM
One thing I offered, but was never taken up on, was to allow a 1e in bard in 2e as a base class... with some modifications. Obviously, you shift the HD up one level (so you have 1d6 HD at 1st level, 2d6 at 2nd, usw), but you likewise shift the spell levels down one, and cut out the druid abilities... just charm, legend lore, spellcasting and languages, using rogue for saves and ThAC0. It's still a very potent class, but not overwhelming.

I would have played the [pick your descriptive term] out of that.

Fhaolan
2011-08-30, 01:45 AM
You know, I could have sworn there was a OD&D Bard somewhere in a Dragon Magazine, but I can't find it. I found the AD&D Bard rewrite that became the 2nd edition Bard, but not the earlier one.

Matthew
2011-08-30, 01:55 AM
You know, I could have sworn there was a OD&D Bard somewhere in a Dragon Magazine, but I can't find it. I found the AD&D Bard rewrite that became the 2nd edition Bard, but not the earlier one.

There was, but in the precursor to Dragon, which is to say Strategic Review #6, pp. 11-12. The ranger, illusionist, and bard all first saw print in the Strategic Review, the paladin and thief arrived with Supplement I: Greyhawk (though the latter appeared in a fanzine earlier than that), the monk and assassin are in Supplement II: Blackmoor, and the druid can be found in Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry. I think that is all of them. :smallwink:

hamlet
2011-08-30, 07:30 AM
There was, but in the precursor to Dragon, which is to say Strategic Review #6, pp. 11-12. The ranger, illusionist, and bard all first saw print in the Strategic Review, the paladin and thief arrived with Supplement I: Greyhawk (though the latter appeared in a fanzine earlier than that), the monk and assassin are in Supplement II: Blackmoor, and the druid can be found in Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry. I think that is all of them. :smallwink:

Actually, as I recall, the Druid showed up as a monster in Greyhawk Supplement I first.

Fhaolan
2011-08-30, 09:10 AM
There was, but in the precursor to Dragon, which is to say Strategic Review #6, pp. 11-12. The ranger, illusionist, and bard all first saw print in the Strategic Review, the paladin and thief arrived with Supplement I: Greyhawk (though the latter appeared in a fanzine earlier than that), the monk and assassin are in Supplement II: Blackmoor, and the druid can be found in Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry. I think that is all of them. :smallwink:

Strategic.... Ha! Found it, thanks. I'd forgotten all about the Strategic Review and had them stashed in a different box along with the few White Dwarves I have (back when White Dwarf also covered D&D).

Matthew
2011-08-30, 05:14 PM
Actually, as I recall, the Druid showed up as a monster in Greyhawk Supplement I first.

Sure, I am only talking about the class here.



Strategic.... Ha! Found it, thanks. I'd forgotten all about the Strategic Review and had them stashed in a different box along with the few White Dwarves I have (back when White Dwarf also covered D&D).

Glad to be able to help!

rexreg
2011-08-30, 08:30 PM
Issue #56 of Dragon Magazine
"Singing a new tune--a different bard, not quite so hard"