So I was thinking (new stat)

[Phosphate]

About why casters are so powerful. And, there being billions of reasons for that, I decided to settle on some fixable ones:

Casters can focus on very few stats to optimize.
Normally you can't defend from magic.
Illusions are...kinda too good.

This, added with my issue over how some will saves have literally NOTHING to do with wisdom, encouraged me to start this project (which is probably flawed in many ways, which is why I'm open to criticism). Also, some unrelated things will change due to this state, which fit flavor-wise.

So, without further ado, I present to you...Willpower!

Willpower is the measure of a character's mental resistance to effort and harm, and is also a gauge of someone's...stubborness. Whether it is about resisting the influence of an illusion, not fainting due to grevius wounds or handling arcane strain, willpower has you covered.

The basics: Willpower is treated as a mental stat, but acts as a physical stat when it comes to aging (so instead of increasing, it decreases over time).

Saves: In this format, Will Saves can use either Wisdom or Willpower, depending on the situation. For the purposes of this article, we will call the Wisdom based one Will Save Type 1 and the Willpower based one Will Save Type 2. All Will Saves to resist mind-affecting spells or abilities change to Type 2. All Will Saves to disbelieve illusions change to Type 2. All Will Saves done while you are unconscious/asleep change to Type 2.

Also, if you would have to make a Fortitude check against dying, make a Will Save Type 2 check against the same DC aswell. If you fail both, you die. If you fail only the Fortitude check, your hit points are reduced to 1. If you fail only the Will Save, you fall unconscious. If you succeed both, nothing happens.

Skills: These skills change their relevant stat to Willpower:

Autohypnosis, Concentration, Control Shape, Sense Motive, Survival
Also, for Intimidate, either Willpower or Charisma can be used, and for Swim checks, you may add half your Willpower modifier.

Miscellaneous: All casting classes, no exception, gain additional spells per day from Willpower instead of their previous stat. Spells known and learning spells still rely on their former stats.

All characters are awake and fully functional at 0 - Willpow mod hit points or more (they are not stable, however). If a character has a negative Willpower modifier, then he becomes disabled at more than 0 hit points (for example, a character with -2 Willpow Mod falls unconscious at 2 hit points).

All characters gain SR equal to their Willpower + (ECL - 6)/3, rounded down.

All characters are allowed to sleep 1 hour less for every 2 points of Willpower modifier (does not affect meditation).

Poison that deals charisma damage deals the same amount of willpower damage.


That's....mainly it so far. So, opinions?

[Sir Homeslice]

Congratulations, you've introduced an entirely new stat for everyone. This not only does not benefit absolutely anyone, it also punishes absolutely everyone.

P.S: If you use dice roll for stat generation you introduce either a completely new avenue for dump-statting, or punishing someone for having bad luck even further. If you use point-buy, you either keep the point-buy the same and thus everyone loses tremendously, or you modify it to account for the extra stat in which case it's mostly pointless because things will either be the same anyways or again, you'll keep screwing people.

[Yitzi]

That really should go with Charisma...a better idea for the "Will saves with nothing to do with Wisdom" might be to switch Will saves to a CHA key ability, and create a new Insight save (WIS key ability) for fear and charm effects and illusion disbelief.
To deal with the "very few stats to optimize" issue, you don't want yet another ability (although making spells/day dependent on a different ability score than save DCs could work if you can find a way to fluff it), you want to depower their defenses (so that they have to sink some into CON and DEX to survive) and remove or rework inherent bonuses to favor SAD classes less and MAD classes more. (Maybe make them "overlap" in some sense with high starting rolls and the ability boost every 4 levels.)
Of course you can normally defend against magic...it's called a saving throw (or occasionally touch AC). Make those able to keep up with offense, and that's ok. Giving SR equal to an ability score is a HORRIBLE idea, as at low levels it's powerful to crippling, while at high levels (where casters really need the nerf) it's next to useless.
Illusions do perhaps need some weakening (though not all that much; while way too powerful, they are too powerful in a way that's relatively easy to fix), but your fix doesn't help at all, since the too-powerful ones are that way because they don't allow a save to disbelieve.

[Phosphate]

@Sir: Yes, it DOES punish everyone. Except it punishes casters more, because they CAN'T dump it, they need it for various reasons. Which was the point.


That really should go with Charisma...a better idea for the "Will saves with nothing to do with Wisdom" might be to switch Will saves to a CHA key ability, and create a new Insight save (WIS key ability) for fear and charm effects and illusion disbelief.

That would work, but only for Int and Wis-based casters. Everyone else is still a problem.


(although making spells/day dependent on a different ability score than save DCs could work if you can find a way to fluff it)

Well, I have. Basically, you have a certain number of maximum spells per day because your body can't handle any more arcane/mental pressure than that. Willpower increases this limit.


you want to depower their defenses (so that they have to sink some into CON and DEX to survive)

This has already been done...and it's not very useful. Spells can help with survivability anyway.


Of course you can normally defend against magic...it's called a saving throw (or occasionally touch AC).

There are spells that don't allow a save. But most spells DO take SR into account.


Giving SR equal to an ability score is a HORRIBLE idea, as at low levels it's powerful to crippling, while at high levels (where casters really need the nerf) it's next to useless.

Well if it would be powerful to crippling at low levels then Drows shouldn't exist (11+class level). But they do. However, I do agree that at high levels it does get quite weak...maybe something that scales a little should do the trick.

Willpower + (ECL - 6)/3, rounded down, should work.


(though not all that much; while way too powerful, they are too powerful in a way that's relatively easy to fix)

The *fix* implied here can only be done by another caster, not everyone. Which is the issue.


but your fix doesn't help at all, since the too-powerful ones are that way because they don't allow a save to disbelieve.

Yes, but some are affected by SR. Those that are not, are either for hiding or summoning shadows, which are weaker than the corresponding Conjurations anyway.

[Yitzi]

That would work, but only for Int and Wis-based casters. Everyone else is still a problem.

Actually, the idea here was for the saves issue, not the casters. That said, aren't all the tier 1 casters Int and Wis-based anyway?


Well, I have. Basically, you have a certain number of maximum spells per day because your body can't handle any more arcane/mental pressure than that. Willpower increases this limit.

Yes, but it's such a niche ability score, and there are so many complications in adding a new ability, that it doesn't really justify it. Maybe if you want to base it off the idea of what your body can handle, make spells/day based off CON?


This has already been done...and it's not very useful. Spells can help with survivability anyway.

Then I suppose it just has to be depowered more, until low DEX and low CON is not an option.


There are spells that don't allow a save.

Not all that many...and most of them (except the really high-level ones) do require a touch attack roll.


Well if it would be powerful to crippling at low levels then Drows shouldn't exist (11+class level).

11+level is powerful, not crippling. And Drow are supposed to be hard for casters.
But what if someone has 18 Willpower? Then it'd be crippling for low-level casters. Which is ok for rare enemies, but not for something relatively common.


But they do. However, I do agree that at high levels it does get quite weak...maybe something that scales a little should do the trick.

I'd say rather than making it equal to the Willpower score, you'd want to make it equal to 5+Willpower modifier+level, perhaps with less for racial HD so that monsters are manageable.


Willpower + (ECL - 6)/3, rounded down, should work.

No, as even then, at level 1 it can get pretty tough (16 Willpower makes for 14 SR), while by level 20 it's still totally irrelevant unless you have a really high score (even 20 Willpower makes for only 24 SR, easily bypassed.)
And also, that's basing it on ECL (which is never done overtly in the actual mechanics) and the ability score (which happens, but is very rare; usually it's the ability modifier.)


The *fix* implied here can only be done by another caster, not everyone.

Actually, I was referring to a DM fix; illusions are powerful, but a rules fix to depower them is relatively easy.


Yes, but some are affected by SR. Those that are not, are either for hiding or summoning shadows, which are weaker than the corresponding Conjurations anyway.

The hiding illusions are the most problematic ones of all.

[Phosphate]

Actually, the idea here was for the saves issue, not the casters. That said, aren't all the tier 1 casters Int and Wis-based anyway?

You'll be making some Tier 2 casters climb up, and casters would still be on top.


Yes, but it's such a niche ability score, and there are so many complications in adding a new ability, that it doesn't really justify it. Maybe if you want to base it off the idea of what your body can handle, make spells/day based off CON?

That's the way I used to do it (basing it on Con). But then I realized that Con, as a stat, is simply too damn useful to need any upgrade.


Then I suppose it just has to be depowered more, until low DEX and low CON is not an option.

Problem is that many defensive/healing spells are low level, and they're pretty much required for survival at said levels. And anyway, if you'd depower spells you'd have to work a lot more - there's a lot of them.


Not all that many...and most of them (except the really high-level ones) do require a touch attack roll.

True.


11+level is powerful, not crippling. And Drow are supposed to be hard for casters.
But what if someone has 18 Willpower? Then it'd be crippling for low-level casters. Which is ok for rare enemies, but not for something relatively common.

Something relatively common...doesn't have 18 in a stat.


I'd say rather than making it equal to the Willpower score, you'd want to make it equal to 5+Willpower modifier+level, perhaps with less for racial HD so that monsters are manageable.

That's way too high for something that everybody has :)).


And also, that's basing it on ECL (which is never done overtly in the actual mechanics) and the ability score (which happens, but is very rare; usually it's the ability modifier.)

That shouldn't really be too important for homebrewing.


Actually, I was referring to a DM fix; illusions are powerful, but a rules fix to depower them is relatively easy.

Again, as per the first point, kinda messy.


The hiding illusions are the most problematic ones of all.

And yet, I will have to agree with this....

[Shadow Lord]

I'm sorry, but I feel the need to point this out right now, before this goes any further. You are making melee classes weaker. It doesn't matter if it makes Casters weaker as well; it makes melee weaker, and that is something that just doesn't need to be done. And in any case, this doesn't make that much sense. I mean, " My will is so powerful that your fireball doesn't effect me! " It just seems very... wut?

I mean, it's a good idea in theory, but it doesn't work out mechanically.

[Cipher Stars]

While its an interesting idea and it may find favor in a game somewhere, I don't think adding a new ability is the right idea for the matter,

[Maraxus1]

Willpower has to be a separated into wisdom and willpower.
And dexterity should be separated into dexterity (prestidigitation, handiness, hand/eye coordination) and agility (quickness, balance, nimbleness)

Bamm, you have the usual 8 attributes. I think, there are other RPGs that have more or less those.

[Phosphate]

I'm sorry, but I feel the need to point this out right now, before this goes any further. You are making melee classes weaker. It doesn't matter if it makes Casters weaker as well; it makes melee weaker, and that is something that just doesn't need to be done. And in any case, this doesn't make that much sense. I mean, " My will is so powerful that your fireball doesn't effect me! " It just seems very... wut?

I mean, it's a good idea in theory, but it doesn't work out mechanically.

Magic itself is a result of imposing your will over reality. A stronger will can reject a weaker will. I KNOW this means that you're treating everyone as somewhat magical, but that's not too much of a stretch (think Dragon Age. You need to spend a lifetime underground to NOT have a connection with the Fade). Also also, the thing about Melee classes and Willpower is that, now that will exists, they can dump Wisdom! :D. Without any side effects. So casters are still taking a larger hit.


Willpower has to be a separated into wisdom and willpower.
And dexterity should be separated into dexterity (prestidigitation, handiness, hand/eye coordination) and agility (quickness, balance, nimbleness)

Bamm, you have the usual 8 attributes. I think, there are other RPGs that have more or less those.

The problem here is that with the way actions are worded and carried out, in D&D a separation between Willpower and Wisdom is quite easy and you can make both into meaningful stats, while a separation between dexterity and agility would make dexterity useless for all non-archer style classes.

[Maraxus1]

The problem here is that with the way actions are worded and carried out, in D&D a separation between Willpower and Wisdom is quite easy and you can make both into meaningful stats, while a separation between dexterity and agility would make dexterity useless for all non-archer style classes.
I don't think, besides casters using this stat, that wisdom would have much meaning if it was not for the will saves. The point is, yes, it makes a good statt for other systems but D&D is build on the 6 attributes.

[Yitzi]

You'll be making some Tier 2 casters climb up, and casters would still be on top.

Actually, tier 2 would not climb up, it'd just stay where it is. And yes, it won't solve the caster issue, but neither will this (at least in terms of the dual-ability dependence; SR might but would need to be made to scale better.


That's the way I used to do it (basing it on Con). But then I realized that Con, as a stat, is simply too damn useful to need any upgrade.

Wait, if CON is so important even to casters, then they're not really SAD, are they?


Problem is that many defensive/healing spells are low level, and they're pretty much required for survival at said levels.

Yeah, but the ones required for survival aren't the ones that make casters broken.


And anyway, if you'd depower spells you'd have to work a lot more - there's a lot of them.

I don't think casters can be fixed without substantial work; a lot of the work can be avoided by making non-Core (or non-Core-plus-SRD) materials allowed by whitelist only. (A good idea anyway IMO, to make it harder to break and give Core-only players the ability to keep up with everyone else.)


Something relatively common...doesn't have 18 in a stat.

True. But it's not so rare as to justify a 90% immunity to magic. And it still breaks down at higher levels.


That's way too high for something that everybody has :)).

Not really; it means that against an equal-level enemy, the average individual has only a 20% chance to resist. If that's still too strong, you could remove that 5, and then you need at least 14 WIL to have any chance of SR against an equal-level enemy.


That shouldn't really be too important for homebrewing.

Depends how well you want it to match everything else. Also, there's a good reason that things are never overtly based on ECL: ECL doesn't exist from an IC perspective.

[John Cribati]

Sense Motive should still be Wisdom Based, because you're taking in information about others and deciding whether or not the person is trustworthy.

[Phosphate]

SR might but would need to be made to scale better.

Still open to suggestions on this. Your first one, however, is a tad too much imo :smallbiggrin: (that 5+Mod+level)


, if CON is so important even to casters, then they're not really SAD, are they?

2AD is not true MAD


Yeah, but the ones required for survival aren't the ones that make casters broken.

Yes, but they DO help with getting them to be SAD.


I don't think casters can be fixed without substantial work; a lot of the work can be avoided by making non-Core (or non-Core-plus-SRD) materials allowed by whitelist only. (A good idea anyway IMO, to make it harder to break and give Core-only players the ability to keep up with everyone else.)

True...


True. But it's not so rare as to justify a 90% immunity to magic. And it still breaks down at higher levels.

It's still a problem than only affects levels 1-5, where spellcasters simply SHOULDN'T solo (well except druids probably). I do agree that it's too low at higher levels, and thinking about it...



Not really; it means that against an equal-level enemy, the average individual has only a 20% chance to resist. If that's still too strong, you could remove that 5, and then you need at least 14 WIL to have any chance of SR against an equal-level enemy.

That's assuming that the opponent has ONLY levels that give him full caster levels and that your PC dumps Will.


Depends how well you want it to match everything else. Also, there's a good reason that things are never overtly based on ECL: ECL doesn't exist from an IC perspective.

Then use HD. That's used. Not much difference

[Phosphate]

Sense Motive should still be Wisdom Based, because you're taking in information about others and deciding whether or not the person is trustworthy.

The problem with this is how Sense Motive is used in-game (aka to oppose bluffs and some enchantments that allow this opposed roll), aside from true Wisdom-dependent uses like "Hunch" and detecting that others are enchanted.

It would probably work best as Willpower for checks concerning yourself/someone interacting with you directly and Wisdom for checks on others.

@Maraxus1: Will checks ARE important.