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pwykersotz
2011-08-18, 06:19 PM
Hey guys, I'm thinking of working in a custom Epic Feat idea and I need to know the worst ways it could be broken.

The base concept:
An Epic Level feat can grant special features of other classes.

For example, an Epic Feat to take Wizard Level 1 would grant the feat Scribe Scroll and the ability Summon Familiar. An Epic Feat used to take Rogue Level 1 would grant the abilities Sneak Attack (+1d6) and Trapfinding.

This would not grant progression for:
Hit Dice
BAB
Saves
Skill Points
Casting/Caster level
Maneuvers/Initiator level
Feats granted by leveling
etc

However, if a bonus feat were granted as part of a class special abilities (ie Fighter bonus feats) you could take the feat as if you were a fighter of that level (never granting epic feats).

Any increase must be taken incrementally, you must take Wizard 1 before Wizard 2, and to get to Wizard 10 you would need Wizard 1-9 first. Prestige class features would also be available, but only if the prerequisites for the prestige class were met. This does not grant abilities for Epic Prestige Classes.

The good: Epic feats could be used to get nifty class features and multiple low-totem regular feats at once.

The bad: The progression is slow and can be lackluster if used improperly. Taking 20 levels of class special abilities would take 20 Epic Feats, a terrible tradeoff given that level 80-100's have utterly no need of such minor powers.

The intended: Give players a bit more flexibility with choosing Epic feats, especially when first hitting 21. Also, provide an alternative to taking an exp hit for multiclassing while not getting rid of that system entirely.

Glimbur
2011-08-18, 06:48 PM
Feats are rarer than levels. There is a guide to dipping cleric, and other classes also give significant boosts on their first level (rage and wand activation come to mind readily), but I would rather have a well-chosen Epic feat (say, Epic Spellcasting) than the abilities of a first level cleric or wizard or rogue or what have you. This feat seems underpowered.

I also don't like multiclassing XP penalties, but that's a different argument.

pwykersotz
2011-08-19, 10:14 AM
I agree it's low on the power scale, that was partially intended. Two epic feats, for example, can get you Cha mod to all saves by taking Paladin, which for a Sorcerer or other Cha based class could be a huge boon.

Note also that since you are not taking on the class itself, merely using great knowledge and experience to duplicate the features, alignment or race restrictions wouldn't apply. Only purely mechanical ones, such as requiring a certain BAB or ranks in skills. This provides access to prestige class powers that would ordinarily be inaccessible to a character.

Is there anything you'd do to keep the intention of the feat intact so that it balances better?

Yitzi
2011-08-19, 10:47 AM
Seems decent to me...it's not overly powerful (since if you really wanted you could just take the actual levels, and by epic levels there are no new features you need to grab), but not too weak (as level-dipping without spending a level or taking a multiclass penalty can be quite useful.)

137ben
2011-08-19, 05:21 PM
I agree it's low on the power scale, that was partially intended. Two epic feats, for example, can get you Cha mod to all saves by taking Paladin, which for a Sorcerer or other Cha based class could be a huge boon.

?

Couldn't you just take Great Charisma twice?

This does make it easier to dip--instead of having 1 opportunity to dip each level, you now get 4/3 chances.

I am curious as to why you specified that it cannot grant epic features. If you remove that restriction, you still wouldn't be able to mimic, say, an epic rogue's sneak attack until level 81, at which point the extra sneak attack die is fairly insignificant. Just as a 21st level character does not destroy the game by being able to get a 1st level power from another class, an 81st level character won't be gaining much by getting a 21st level boost.

pwykersotz
2011-08-19, 07:51 PM
Taking Great Charisma twice for a Sorcerer would raise their Charisma by 2, their Charisma mod by 1. Taking Paladin 1 and Paladin 2 would grant their rather substantial Charisma modifier to their saves, probably something to the tune of +10 or more if they're doing it right. Two totally different effects.

I made it not qualify for epic just on the thought that an epic feat should not grant an epic feat plus something else. I'd rather not have power creep of that nature take hold, no matter how unlikely that might be.

That being said, yeah, you could take the first level in a wide variety of classes and get specialties up the wazoo. True you're not getting tenth level spells yet though. For a lot of people it might not be worth it. I'm just looking to add flexibility.

137ben
2011-08-19, 08:06 PM
Point taken, but generally, when a class grants an epic bonus feat, it is because there is no other class feature at that level. So in effect, you trade an epic feat for an epic feat on another class' bonus feat list. Of course, to do that, you have to blow additional feats on another classes "dead levels" (e.g., to get the sorcerer's 23rd level bonus feat, you have to spend three epic feats, the first two of which do nothing).

pwykersotz
2011-08-20, 12:03 PM
Agreed. What you're describing is technically possible under the wording of the feat if I allowed epic, and that would be pretty silly. But what I'm worried about is Epic Prestige Classes being used as feats. Technically under the wording of the feat, you could take an epic level Prestige Class from level 21-30, and use your feats to gain Epic Prestige Class levels in another one from 1-3.

This is what I want to prevent. Since one form is so useless and the other is so ridiculous, I just scrapped the whole epic thing from the feat.