Font rage

[Ya Ta Hey!]

Why is Comic Sans such a third rail to talk about in the webcomic world? Isn't that the font used here, in one of the internet's most successful webcomics?

I don't get it.

[FujinAkari]

... what the heck are you talking about? O.o

[MoonCat]

... what the heck are you talking about? O.o

The font in OoTS is called Comic Sans, which has gained a lot of hatred for people overusing it, although in some cases it works excellently, such as here for instance. Ya Ta Hey is annoyed that so many people rail on it, which mainly stems from people trying to cram it into anything that is supposed to look 'playful'. People who have caught onto Comic Sans hatred use Joker instead, which is steadily giving that font a bad name too.

[Ya Ta Hey!]

... what the heck are you talking about? O.o

Comic Sans, the font.

Almost every time I've ever heard it mentioned, it comes with this sneer about how vomitously unprofessional it is. If you want to get laughed off an art forum, just say 'comic sans'.

But I think that's the font used here, isn't it? I'm not trying to accuse the author of anything, I'm just wondering where the font got its bad rep if one of the top 10 webcomics uses it without any problems. Its not hard to read, it doesn't look too bad, so what's wrong?

[MoonCat]

Comic Sans, the font.

Almost every time I've ever heard it mentioned, it comes with this sneer about how vomitously unprofessional it is. If you want to get laughed off an art forum, just say 'comic sans'.

But I think that's the font used here, isn't it? I'm not trying to accuse the author of anything, I'm just wondering where the font got its bad rep if one of the top 10 webcomics uses it without any problems. Its not hard to read, it doesn't look too bad, so what's wrong?

People overuse it a lot, although in some cases it works great, such as here. There's a reason it's called 'Comic' Sans.

[Trazoi]

Because Comic Sans is a font quickly designed for a Microsoft kids application because the alternative was the even more inappropriate and uglier Times New Roman. Then Microsoft added it to their standard font set and people starting using it everywhere as the default "friendly and casual" font. And as it's a font based on handwriting, which gives it some unique character, having it overused makes it far more noticable than other fonts.

A lot of webcomics use it by default because, hey, it's on the computer and it's got "Comic" in the title, might as well use it. Order of the Stick is one of the few places I've seen where the font actually works, becaue the simplified art style of the comic is akin to that of children's books, which is what the font was designed for. If you want an example of a popular webcomic where I think it doesn't work, look at Sluggy Freelance.

That said, I'm not a fan of the shrinking font size. The latest shrinkage pushed the font that one bit too far, and now there's a noticable strain to read large passages of text.

[MoonCat]

Because Comic Sans is a font quickly designed for a Microsoft kids application because the alternative was the even more inappropriate and uglier Times New Roman. Then Microsoft added it to their standard font set and people starting using it everywhere as the default "friendly and casual" font. And as it's a font based on handwriting, which gives it some unique character, having it overused makes it far more noticable than other fonts.

A lot of webcomics use it by default because, hey, it's on the computer and it's got "Comic" in the title, might as well use it. Order of the Stick is one of the few places I've seen where the font actually works, becaue the simplified art style of the comic is akin to that of children's books, which is what the font was designed for. If you want an example of a popular webcomic where I think it doesn't work, look at Sluggy Freelance.

That said, I'm not a fan of the shrinking font size. The latest shrinkage pushed the font that one bit too far, and now there's a noticable strain to read large passages of text.

What's wrong with Times New Roman? That's pretty much the default on most computers nowadays and I've never had any trouble with it.

[Fiery Diamond]

What's wrong with Times New Roman? That's pretty much the default on most computers nowadays and I've never had any trouble with it.

That's what I was thinking. I never use anything other than that.

[Trazoi]

What's wrong with Times New Roman? That's pretty much the default on most computers nowadays and I've never had any trouble with it.
I re-edited that sentence after I typed it and I probably should have only gone with "inappropriate" :smallwink:. While it's not my favourite serif font for the screen it's alright, although it screams "high school english paper". It is however completely inappropriate and ugly in its use for the dialog boxes in that MS program that Comic Sans was made for.

It's like using Times New Roman as the dialog font in a webcomic. Unless it's a very special niche comic it's guaranteed worse than Comic Sans. :smalltongue:

Edit below: Oh don't get me started on the overuse of Papyrus. :smallmad:

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

Comic sans, the only font I see that gets more hate is papyrus.

[Teutonic Knight]

That said, I'm not a fan of the shrinking font size. The latest shrinkage pushed the font that one bit too far, and now there's a noticable strain to read large passages of text.

Is it really shrinking? I don't think the default size is, but I agree that the "Die, son of Tarquin. DIE!!" and "Get off me, lady!" seemed smaller than what was usual for smaller text in OotS.

As for Comic Sans, I use it for my comic, which is modeled after OotS, so I'm with Trazoi in saying it's only good used in this type of comic.

[Mutant Sheep]

papy...papyrus? Don't even mention it! It burns!

I've always used times new roman, since its the default, and liked it. Always did kinda hate the way comic sans looks on things though.:smallyuk:



Is it really shrinking? I don't think the default size is, but I agree that the "Die, son of Tarquin. DIE!!" and "Get off me, lady!" seemed smaller than what was usual for smaller text in OotS.

As for Comic Sans, I use it for my comic, which is modeled after OotS, so I'm with Trazoi in saying it's only good used in this type of comic.
Yeah it shrank somewhere around DstP. Compare a recent strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html) with Quar and then this older one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0509.html) on the boat. Boat was bigger. :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

...I'm confused. How can people get upset over a font? How can a font be "appropriate" or not for any given thing? Unless it's excessively fancy and interferes with its readability, why the heck would a font matter to anyone? :smallconfused:

Zevox

[Prowl]

Comic Sans is long notorious in the web development world for being the font of choice for really badly designed web sites.

However for a comic, Comic Sans is perfectly appropriate.

[Trazoi]

...I'm confused. How can people get upset over a font? How can a font be "appropriate" or not for any given thing? Unless it's excessively fancy and interferes with its readability, why the heck would a font matter to anyone? :smallconfused:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5116/wethecomicsans.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/wethecomicsans.jpg/)

It doesn't have quite the same gravitas, does it? :smalltongue:
(Although to be fair, it is more readable. :smallbiggrin:)

[Mutant Sheep]

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5116/wethecomicsans.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/wethecomicsans.jpg/)

It doesn't have quite the same gravitas, does it? :smalltongue:
(Although to be fair, it is more readable. :smallbiggrin:)

What is that? Captain America is rolling in his icy prison, sir. G.I Joe is mad too. I predict a team up to take you down! :smallbiggrin:

[Talvereaux]

...I'm confused. How can people get upset over a font? How can a font be "appropriate" or not for any given thing? Unless it's excessively fancy and interferes with its readability, why the heck would a font matter to anyone? :smallconfused:

Zevox

I'm sure most people wonder why D&D fans get worked up over stuff like whether 4e is superior to 3.5e, why Dr. Who fans get worked up over which Doctor is the best, why sports fans get worked up over which team is best, or why gamers get worked up over whether consoles or PCs are superior for the medium.

Geeks love getting invested in the details of their interests, and that goes for typography buffs as well. To someone who isn't "in to" the geek's field, it always looks like they're making something out of nothing, or 'nerdraging' over details that shouldn't matter.

[Ya Ta Hey!]

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5116/wethecomicsans.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/wethecomicsans.jpg/)

It doesn't have quite the same gravitas, does it? :smalltongue:
(Although to be fair, it is more readable. :smallbiggrin:)

Hahaha...point taken. :smalltongue:

[Prowl]

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

note the first and last versions of the Boyd's Toast website are using Comic Sans

[John Cribati]

Font discussion irks me. Especially those who rant about a specific font whenever they see it. And I like how Papyrus looks. :tongue:

[Prowl]

Papyrus font makes stick figure Jesus cry

[Trazoi]

Oh great, we've been transported to Pandora.

[Tebryn]

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5116/wethecomicsans.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/wethecomicsans.jpg/)

It doesn't have quite the same gravitas, does it? :smalltongue:
(Although to be fair, it is more readable. :smallbiggrin:)

No of course not. But it's not the fault of the font. It's because it's not the actual Declaration of Independence. You can write it in the same hand writing and put it on stale yellow paper colored back ground and it's still not going to have the same gavitas.

[zimmerwald1915]

No of course not. But it's not the fault of the font. It's because it's not the actual Declaration of Independence. You can write it in the same hand writing and put it on stale yellow paper colored back ground and it's still not going to have the same gavitas.
No, it's not the Declaration of Independence. It's the preamble to the Constitution of the United States. It says so at the end of the paragraph.

[Tebryn]

You'll forgive me I don't know the difference, I'm not American.

[Darakonis]

I'm just wondering where the font got its bad rep if one of the top 10 webcomics uses it without any problems.

The movement against Comic Sans long predates the existence of this comic. It began in the 90s, when the font was so pervasive and used without regard for tone or context that campaigns were started to ban the font.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Trazoi]

Take that, Captain America!
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/752/declarationofcomicsans.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/declarationofcomicsans.jpg/)

Comic Sans does has the advantage that it's quite readable at small sizes, doesn't it?

[GSFB]

Whenever I see papyrus font, I assume I somehow clicked on the menu for a restaurant.

Also, see this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/passiveaggressive/4773512458/).

[Ya Ta Hey!]

The movement against Comic Sans long predates the existence of this comic. It began in the 90s, when use of the font was so pervasive and used without regard for tone or context that campaigns were started to ban the font.

Peace,
-Darakonis

Oh. So it almost has the same kind of connotations as a 16-bit animated .gif and tile-texture background, I bet.

[Esprit15]

Excuse me, but I believe that Wingdings is the worst font ever. :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5116/wethecomicsans.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/wethecomicsans.jpg/)

It doesn't have quite the same gravitas, does it? :smalltongue:
(Although to be fair, it is more readable. :smallbiggrin:)
Sure it does. :smallconfused:


I'm sure most people wonder why D&D fans get worked up over stuff like whether 4e is superior to 3.5e, why Dr. Who fans get worked up over which Doctor is the best, why sports fans get worked up over which team is best, or why gamers get worked up over whether consoles or PCs are superior for the medium.

Geeks love getting invested in the details of their interests, and that goes for typography buffs as well. To someone who isn't "in to" the geek's field, it always looks like they're making something out of nothing, or 'nerdraging' over details that shouldn't matter.
With those other things though there are actual details to discuss and argue about. With D&D there's the different game mechanics; with video games there's the different system capabilities, features, and games; with Dr. Who there's different character traits, episodes, and so on (I'm assuming - haven't seen the show); with sports there's different players and coaches I guess (yeah, I don't follow sports at all). Sure it's all subjective ultimately, but there are at least things you can point to as explaining your opinion.

But a font? How would that even work? You can't seriously tell me there are people out there who will argue about the way a font curves its "s"-es or somesuch nonsense :smallconfused: . There aren't even details to discuss that don't immediately run into the wall of "it's an entirely subjective aesthetic preference, nothing more."

Zevox

[VanBuren]

I would send the regards of the Helvetica brigade, but since that's not an option I send greetings instead from the Tahoma Alliance.

[Psyren]

That said, I'm not a fan of the shrinking font size. The latest shrinkage pushed the font that one bit too far, and now there's a noticable strain to read large passages of text.

Not to speak for the Giant, but given that most browsers nowadays can zoom, it's probably a better move to shrink the text a bit than to leave out crucial exposition or have it spill over across too many action panels.

[Trazoi]

Sure it does. :smallconfused:
Seriously? I'm not sure whether you're making a tacit argument that the power of words should be in their content rather than their appearence or not. I'm however of the opinion that, as long as your words are readable, than there's an argument for the power of aesthetics as well. Choice of font can send powerful messages about the content too. No-one picks Comic Sans for political campaigns. :smallamused:

For example, see the difference in the message between:

ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE

and:

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here


Not to speak for the Giant, but given that most browsers nowadays can zoom, it's probably a better move to shrink the text a bit than to leave out crucial exposition or have it spill over across too many action panels.
I think the problem is that it's shrunk to the point where the lines in the letters are starting to blur. If you zoom in you can see some of the loops in lettersl ike 'a' and 'e' are filled with grey. It's not at the point where I can't read the comic, but I've noticed that I have to slow down to parse each line more than I used to after the last font size change.

[tcrudisi]

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here

In all fairness, I'd be more afraid of this one. Why? Because I'd suspect the Joker was after me, and since I play 4e, the Batman Wizard no longer exists. How can I possibly be expected to defeat him under such constraints?

Or if it wasn't the Joker, then I'm left with two options. Either a kid has decided to play a trick on me, at which point I can expect a bucket of water to fall on my head and to be shot with a BB gun. Or, I'm about to enter the lair of a psychopath who wants to toy with me before finishing me off. Either way, it's pretty darn scary. (BB guns can hurt.)

[jere7my]

But a font? How would that even work? You can't seriously tell me there are people out there who will argue about the way a font curves its "s"-es or somesuch nonsense :smallconfused: . There aren't even details to discuss that don't immediately run into the wall of "it's an entirely subjective aesthetic preference, nothing more."

Of course there are such people. And those people aren't foolish; they just appreciate typography on a different scale than you do. People have devoted years to designing fonts that minimize eyestrain and promote readability, for instance. And whether you're sensitive to it or not, there are fonts that project authority, warmth, gravitas, stiffness, unsettledness...all things that can subtly affect the way a text is received. There are fonts that are good at creating an even and balanced pattern of black and white in a page of text, and there are fonts that can make a page of text appear blotchy. There are fonts that are good for small font sizes, and fonts that are not.

If you were producing a book or magazine, you would have to put thought into typography if you wanted your work to be taken seriously. It's a huge topic; volumes and volumes have been written about it, going back hundreds of years, and people devote careers to it. Here's a good site (http://typies.blogspot.com/2006/11/15-tips-to-choose-good-text-type.html) that offers just the tip of the iceberg.

[Zevox]

Seriously? I'm not sure whether you're making a tacit argument that the power of words should be in their content rather than their appearence or not.
I would certainly say that, but I wasn't making a tacit argument to that effect when I posted that, because I couldn't have imagined anyone thinking otherwise. As long as the words are easily readable, nothing else about how exactly they look is relevant to anything.


For example, see the difference in the message between:

ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE

and:

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here
There is none.

(Aside from the fact that I would normally assume that the all-capitalized first version was be being shouted, but that's a product of online customs about such things, not the font. And prior to quoting your post I had assumed that the all-caps look of the letters was a result of the font you were using rather than how you typed it, so it actually didn't come across that way when I read it.)

Zevox

[factotum]

I suspect that part of the reason typographers dislike Comic Sans so much is because it was cobbled together very quickly rather than taking the aforementioned years to design, and then became very, very popular! I'm not saying it wasn't overused in the 90s, because it *was*, but I personally think part of the reason for that is because it's a nice, clear, readable font that seems "friendly"--more so than Times New Roman or Helvetica/Arial.

In other words, it became overused because it's actually well-designed for the job it was created to do, e.g. be nice, clear and friendly for the kiddies to read.

[KillianHawkeye]

@Zevox,

The differences in fonts are basically the same as the differences in peoples' handwriting. Sure, it often doesn't really matter as long as you can read it. But you know how you can tell certain things about someone based on their handwriting? (It's true! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphology)) Well the same can be said of font selection, except that since using a particular font is a conscious choice, it becomes about what kind of tone you want your words to carry.

Here's an example: computer products almost never use a serif font like Times New Roman on their packaging or logos. This is because serif fonts look old-timey and most computer companies don't want to carry that sort of image.

[The Giant]

As long as the words are easily readable, nothing else about how exactly they look is relevant to anything.

What's strange about this is that it implies that you have gone through your entire life, seeing words on packages and signs and book covers, and never once wondered why people were bothering to use different fonts. :smallconfused:

Choice of font is a HUGE part of graphic design, so much so that the average designer owns thousands upon thousands of font files. When I used to work in advertising, we had huge books filled with font choices that we would leaf through and pick from. Different fonts do convey different moods, just as surely as different colors or shapes do. The fact that you've never thought about it does not mean that you are not affected by it. Look at the word "Ookoodook" in my sig banner; would you take a bank seriously if their logo was in that font? How about a funeral parlor?

I have thousands myself, but I chose Comic Sans because all of the other "comic book" style fonts that I had were caps-only (because American comic books are usually caps-only). I prefer writing with sentence casing, so I picked Comic Sans. I did not know that anyone had an issue with it, however, until OOTS had been running for some time. For the "Julio Scoundrél" story in SSaDT, I experimented with a sentence-case font from Blambot Foundry that I didn't have access to when OOTS began, and I really liked it (though it really needed the organic speech balloons I used there to make it feel right). At this point, even though I have more attractive font options available, I'm probably going to stick with Comic Sans to the end now. It'll just be confusing to switch in the middle.

Edited to say: Just to give an idea of how important typeface appearance has historically been: Gutenberg, the man who invented the movable type printing press around 1439, had several different typefaces made for it. So even at the very first flowering of modern print, publishers were already choosing different fonts for different purposes.

[Prowl]

These days, you can't take a bank seriously no matter what font they use.

[nihil8r]

As long as the words are easily readable, nothing else about how exactly they look is relevant to anything.

yeah, sorry bro. this is like saying that baseball, football and soccer are the same game because they both use a ball and are played outside on grass. as long as the game is played outside and on grass with a ball, "nothing else about how exactly they look is relevant to anything."

just because YOU can't tell the difference between two obviously different things doesn't mean that they aren't different. it means that YOU can't tell the difference.


These days, you can't take a bank seriously no matter what font they use.

you can say that again :)

[veti]

I get approximately ten e-mails a week in Comic Sans, and they are invariably lame jokes that are good for nothing more than distracting me from work for the two minutes it takes to read them. (Mind you, I usually welcome the distraction.) That's one reason the font attracts such hate - because too many people have the delusion that it will make their jokes funny.

More generally, it was one of the first fonts to be universally supported on the Internet, and it promptly became widely abused for the purpose of making things look "cheerful". It's become mildly fashionable to bash it because 90% of everything that's written in it is a complete waste of time to read. But then, as I see it, that's true of every font, and it's just silly to blame the fonts for that.

In the comic, I don't see how anyone could object to it. It's clear, it allows for a wide range of expression, and the curves are a good complement to the style of the artwork itself.

[Incom]

I love Comic Sans and Papyrus.

Please don't hurt me :smalleek:

(Although seriously, what's the deal with Papyrus?)

[Wanda V'Orcus]

What's wrong with Times New Roman? That's pretty much the default on most computers nowadays and I've never had any trouble with it.

There's nothing wrong with Times New Roman, per se.

The original poster was trying to say that it was not the most appropriate font to use in the particular instance (s)he specified -- "instruction balloons" for a children's computer program designed by Microsoft.

In that instance, Comic Sans was perfect. It's also a perfect font for The Order of the Stick -- a (I assume) deliberately crudely drawn webcomic which Comic Sans complements deliciously! (Words I never, ever thought I'd say about Comic Sans... :smalltongue:)

However, as other posters have mentioned, Comic Sans "went viral" after being included in Microsoft's roster of Windows fonts, and people unwittingly started using it for wildly inappropriate things -- such as signs for "BONE MARROW CLINIC" and professional sports team members' names on jerseys, etc.

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Wanda V'Orcus]

But a font? How would that even work? You can't seriously tell me there are people out there who will argue about the way a font curves its "s"-es or somesuch nonsense :smallconfused: . There aren't even details to discuss that don't immediately run into the wall of "it's an entirely subjective aesthetic preference, nothing more."

Zevox

I can seriously tell you there are people out there who will argue about the tiniest details of a font -- quite strenuously, in fact!!

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Wanda V'Orcus]

Of course there are such people. And those people aren't foolish; they just appreciate typography on a different scale than you do. People have devoted years to designing fonts that minimize eyestrain and promote readability, for instance. And whether you're sensitive to it or not, there are fonts that project authority, warmth, gravitas, stiffness, unsettledness...all things that can subtly affect the way a text is received. There are fonts that are good at creating an even and balanced pattern of black and white in a page of text, and there are fonts that can make a page of text appear blotchy. There are fonts that are good for small font sizes, and fonts that are not.

If you were producing a book or magazine, you would have to put thought into typography if you wanted your work to be taken seriously. It's a huge topic; volumes and volumes have been written about it, going back hundreds of years, and people devote careers to it. Here's a good site (http://typies.blogspot.com/2006/11/15-tips-to-choose-good-text-type.html) that offers just the tip of the iceberg.

Wot 'e said!!! :smallsmile:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Wanda V'Orcus]

I love Comic Sans and Papyrus.

Please don't hurt me :smalleek:

(Although seriously, what's the deal with Papyrus?)

Confession time -- I've always had a soft spot for Papyrus! :smallredface:

The problem is, it's been overused/overexposed to the point of triteness -- rather like the font families Souvenir and Avant Garde were in the 1970s.

Its being used as the subtitle font in Avatar probably didn't help any either...

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[KillianHawkeye]

Holy quadruple post, Batman!

I'll just leave this link to the Forum Rules here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=25&a=1)

[Wanda V'Orcus]

Holy quadruple post, Batman!

I'll just leave this link to the Forum Rules here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=25&a=1)

I'm a tad confused -- I can't post separate replies to four different subjects within the same thread when the replies happen to fall one right after the other?? :smallconfused:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Tebryn]

I'm a tad confused -- I can't post separate replies to four different subjects within the same thread when the replies happen to fall one right after the other?? :smallconfused:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

You can edit your post and multi-quote said four separate things and post them in a single post however.

[Wanda V'Orcus]

You can edit your post and multi-quote said four separate things and post them in a single post however.

Fair enough -- I didn't realise this would be such an issue, though! :smalleek:

In future, I shall do my utmost to restrain myself from such rampant verbosity and thus not offend sensitive dispositions... :smallwink:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[ThePhantasm]

Fair enough -- I didn't realise this would be such an issue, though! :smalleek:

It helps make the thread easier to read if you don't post multiple times in a row. Plus, if someone wants to quote you now and respond to all your posts, they'd have to quote four different posts... you can imagine it would snowball from there.

[Mad Mask]

Fonts are essentially the "voice" of texts. If you were making a public announcement, who would you rather have read the script: Patrick Stewart, or the Hulk? Same thing with Helvetica and Comic Sans.

Also, Wanda, you can delete three of the quadruple post you made, and edit their contents into one post. The delete function is there exactly to remedy such errors. :smallsmile:

[Ekul]

I'll be honest, I rarely notice the difference between any fonts. I know they're different from side-to-side, but the font choice has never really popped out to me. If you showed me a bunch of fonts and asked me to name them I'd just surrender. Although I will admit if the entire comic was in Impact or something similar, I may not have gotten as far, mainly because it's painful to read after a while. A font impacts me only as much as it hurts my eyes, and most fonts don't hurt.

[Oppolo]

There is none.

(Aside from the fact that I would normally assume that the all-capitalized first version was be being shouted, but that's a product of online customs about such things, not the font. And prior to quoting your post I had assumed that the all-caps look of the letters was a result of the font you were using rather than how you typed it, so it actually didn't come across that way when I read it.)

Zevox

{{scrubbed}} Nobody who has any real recognition of aesthetics can argue that all fonts are the same. Just go to google scholar and type in 'typography' to reveal a whole world of research into different type faces and what studies into them have shown.

This is seriously a non-discussion. Fonts matter.

Comic sans MS is hated because it's used in many places where it's not appropriate, by people who just pick the prettiest font without thinking what they're using it for. There's no reason, though, to hate Comic Sans MS for its use in a comic (especially a comedy-based comic)

[King of Nowhere]

Sure it does. :smallconfused:

But a font? How would that even work? You can't seriously tell me there are people out there who will argue about the way a font curves its "s"-es or somesuch nonsense :smallconfused: . There aren't even details to discuss that don't immediately run into the wall of "it's an entirely subjective aesthetic preference, nothing more."

Zevox
Of course there are such people. And those people aren't foolish; they just appreciate typography on a different scale than you do. People have devoted years to designing fonts that minimize eyestrain and promote readability, for instance. And whether you're sensitive to it or not, there are fonts that project authority, warmth, gravitas, stiffness, unsettledness...all things that can subtly affect the way a text is received. There are fonts that are good at creating an even and balanced pattern of black and white in a page of text, and there are fonts that can make a page of text appear blotchy. There are fonts that are good for small font sizes, and fonts that are not.

If you were producing a book or magazine, you would have to put thought into typography if you wanted your work to be taken seriously. It's a huge topic; volumes and volumes have been written about it, going back hundreds of years, and people devote careers to it. Here's a good site (http://typies.blogspot.com/2006/11/15-tips-to-choose-good-text-type.html) that offers just the tip of the iceberg.


What's strange about this is that it implies that you have gone through your entire life, seeing words on packages and signs and book covers, and never once wondered why people were bothering to use different fonts. :smallconfused:

Choice of font is a HUGE part of graphic design, so much so that the average designer owns thousands upon thousands of font files.

Well, font is an artistic choice, and of course there are people who just don't get it, and for whom there is no difference as long as it's readable. I'm one of those. There are, then, other people who are sensible to the kind of font used.
It's the same thing for anything related to art.
Take for example clothing. I have no taste for clothing (at least, men's clothing), if it were for me we would all be walking around in our undergarments, at least in summer, because it's comfortable and if we can go like that to the swimming pool, why bother to wear any more on the street? So I asked a friend to help me buy clothes, because otherwise I'd had no idea of what would look good on me. And while we were shopping, she made cooments about how some shirts looked gayish, and some colors didn't paired well, and I never understood how she could say that, because to me all clothes looked always the same.
Then my father see me in front of the pc, and say "you always look at the same silly game". And I think "how can he say that and not realize I switch between ogame, civilization, league of legends, and a few more? And how can he think them silly? Has he no idea how much strategy there is behind those games?" No, he don't realize any of that, and it would be a total waste of time and sanity to try to make him understand.

What's the moral of the story?
Font is an artistic choice. Many things are artistic choice. And of course, there will be those who are not intersted in that and will not see a difference. But for people who are intersted in those topics, those details matter. We all care about something, and for the eye of the common people, we would just look nerdraging or, at best, hopeless geeks.
It follows that every perosn is a geek when it comes to something they care for.


As for why something is hated, I think what is liked by "noobs" becomes hated. People will associate it with noobishness. I have no idea for fonts, but I saw it many times in videogames, where perfectly reasonable strategies become frowned upon because they are used often by people who dont' know how to use them, and if someone shows that they can be used in an effective way, they just call him lucky.
By what I read, that's what happened to comic sans.
Or somethimes a guru says something and no one dare questioning it.
And sometimes someone skilled start doing something in a way, and no one really think on changing it.
There's rarely a rational reason behind that kind of stuff.
Even in chess, that should be the realm of cold logic, many moves are played just because other people played them before, and didn't immediately lose for a direct consequence of that move. From time to time there are rectification in the theory of openings, when someone starts to really delve into a position instead of accept what tradition suggested and found a better way to counteract the opponent.

[Psyren]

I couldn't resist:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/papyrus.png

I don't understand the hate for Comic Sans though, particularly in this context. It was made for comics, and as the Giant said, is one of the few common comic fonts that has sentence casing. (Which of course is handy for making shouts or other emphasis stand out.)

Regardless, no point changing it now or readers getting upset over it.

[leakingpen]

i for one am a member of the society for the conservation of capitals, and i get ticked when people overuse capital letters in everything. did you know a cap letter takes 125% of the electricity to display on your screen, and 175 percent the bandwidth to transmit to others?

[jere7my]

Well, font is an artistic choice, and of course there are people who just don't get it, and for whom there is no difference as long as it's readable. I'm one of those.

It's not just an artistic choice. Even if you don't notice it happening, your reaction to a text is influenced by font choice — whether you set the article down after half a page, whether you find yourself agreeing with the author, whether you buy the deodorant. You may not be able to put your finger on it, you may not even consciously note the difference between your response to one font versus another, but I guarantee it has an effect on you. Just because you haven't analyzed your response to something doesn't mean you have no response.

And it's not just an artistic choice because the utility of a font depends on its design. To take one example: how easy is it to tell "rn" from "m" in the font you're using? In this little post it doesn't matter; in a 500-page book, that, and the hundreds of other tiny choices that go into making a font, all add up and affect how people read it.

[King of Nowhere]

It's not just an artistic choice. Even if you don't notice it happening, your reaction to a text is influenced by font choice — whether you set the article down after half a page, whether you find yourself agreeing with the author, whether you buy the deodorant. You may not be able to put your finger on it, you may not even consciously note the difference between your response to one font versus another, but I guarantee it has an effect on you. Just because you haven't analyzed your response to something doesn't mean you have no response.


I can't really deny it. If it's supposed to be inconscious, the fact that I don't notice it don't really prove anything, don't it?
Yet, as I believe in individual differences, I prefer to think that some people are just not influenced by the font used*, and other people may not be influenced by other things that influence the majority of people.

* at least within some extent. I recognize that there are some fonts that I don't like, and some of them are perfectly readable.

[Darakonis]

It's become mildly fashionable to bash [Comic Sans] because 90% of everything that's written in it is a complete waste of time to read.

The other 10% consists of this comic.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[Zejety]

This thread lacks some C&H

http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Dave/comicsans2.png

[VanBuren]

Choice of font is a HUGE part of graphic design, so much so that the average designer owns thousands upon thousands of font files. When I used to work in advertising, we had huge books filled with font choices that we would leaf through and pick from. Different fonts do convey different moods, just as surely as different colors or shapes do. The fact that you've never thought about it does not mean that you are not affected by it. Look at the word "Ookoodook" in my sig banner; would you take a bank seriously if their logo was in that font? How about a funeral parlor?

Huh, I didn't know you used to work in advertising. That's pretty cool.


Edited to say: Just to give an idea of how important typeface appearance has historically been: Gutenberg, the man who invented the movable type printing press around 1439, had several different typefaces made for it. So even at the very first flowering of modern print, publishers were already choosing different fonts for different purposes.

Gutenberg, what a boss. Already planning ahead.

Wonder what he'd have thought about Wingdings...


I love Comic Sans and Papyrus.

Please don't hurt me :smalleek:

(Although seriously, what's the deal with Papyrus?)

http://www.cracked.com/funny-5647-fonts/

The link is almost obligatory when discussing fonts.

[MoonCat]

http://www.cracked.com/funny-5647-fonts/

The link is almost obligatory when discussing fonts.

And I like several of those fonts! It's really the way people use them that makes it so bad.

[veti]

Oh, and as for Times New Roman - it's designed by and for a newspaper (The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/), oddly enough), and it's meant to be used and read in narrow columns on a densely packed page. Put white space about it, or use it at more than about 20 ems wide, and it's jarring to read and just looks (as Cracked says) like you haven't worked out how to change the font.

Even The Times itself prefers Georgia in its online edition.

[Studoku]

Overused or not, I still intend to put my epitaph in Comic Sans.

I considered Wingdings but was worried I might end up regretting it.

[FujinAkari]

http://www.cracked.com/funny-5647-fonts/

The link is almost obligatory when discussing fonts.

That link may be the most offensive thing I have read on the internet... I'm sure there are more offensive things out there, but I tend to avoid stuff like that... this? Ugh

[Mutant Sheep]

That link may be the most offensive thing I have read on the internet... I'm sure there are more offensive things out there, but I tend to avoid stuff like that... this? Ugh.:smallsigh:

Its Cracked. The whole thing is like that. Not for everyone. (Just "us". You know who I'm talking about guys I'm talking to...)

[VanBuren]

That link may be the most offensive thing I have read on the internet... I'm sure there are more offensive things out there, but I tend to avoid stuff like that... this? Ugh

Sorry. I forgot to add a disclaimer that not every person on the face of the earth might find it to their taste.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go and edit anything and everything I've ever posted to add that same disclaimer.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

While fonts do convey different meaning and tones to a written message, most of the "rage" is driven by "Somebody is WRONG on the internet, and by my amazing argumentative skills and forceful typing, I'm going to MAKE them change their minds!"

Kind of tedious, but that's human nature. This is why Roland has to come along and shut down the "Was X morally justified in doing Y to Z?" threads every so often.

[Prowl]

Was Mutant Sheep morally justified in italicizing Verdana?

[Castamir]

It does look good for regular small text -- in a comic, after all.

However, even in OOTS, it looks jarringly awful at larger sizes. Take a look for example at "SPLAT" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html).

(and as fonts go, I'm in love with Antykwa Półtawskiego)

[Mutant Sheep]

Was Mutant Sheep morally justified in italicizing Verdana?

No. No I was not. Mostly because quotes italicize, and I should have known that. But yeah, I feel bad for doing it now.:smallfrown:

[Trazoi]

However, even in OOTS, it looks jarringly awful at larger sizes. Take a look for example at "SPLAT" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html).
Comic Sans looks really ugly when used in all-caps. Unfortunately it's the only web friendly comic font, so if you really need to use an all-caps comic font in webpages sometimes you have to use it.
I THINK COMIC SANS CAN WORK HOWEVER IN ALL-CAPS IF YOU DISGUISE IT WITH DIFFERENT FORMATING. (ONLY WORKS FOR HEADLINES THOUGH, NOT SO GOOD FOR BODY TEXT.)

[Wanda V'Orcus]

Comic Sans looks really ugly when used in all-caps. Unfortunately it's the only web friendly comic font, so if you really need to use an all-caps comic font in webpages sometimes you have to use it.
I THINK COMIC SANS CAN WORK HOWEVER IN ALL-CAPS IF YOU DISGUISE IT WITH DIFFERENT FORMATING. (ONLY WORKS FOR HEADLINES THOUGH, NOT SO GOOD FOR BODY TEXT.)

AUGH! My eyes!!!

:smallsigh:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Castamir]

Comic Sans looks really ugly when used in all-caps. Unfortunately it's the only web friendly comic font, so if you really need to use an all-caps comic font in webpages sometimes you have to use it.OOTS is rendered as bitmaps (in PNG), so this argument is irrelevant here.

[Knaight]

The differences in fonts are basically the same as the differences in peoples' handwriting. Sure, it often doesn't really matter as long as you can read it. But you know how you can tell certain things about someone based on their handwriting? (It's true! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphology)) Well the same can be said of font selection, except that since using a particular font is a conscious choice, it becomes about what kind of tone you want your words to carry.

Note that, if linking Wikipedia around the words "It's true!" you look a bit foolish when the first line linked is: "Graphology is the pseudoscientific[1][2][3][4][5][6] study and analysis of handwriting, especially in relation to human psychology. In the medical field, it can be used to refer to the study of handwriting as an aid in diagnosis and tracking of diseases of the brain and nervous system. The term is sometimes incorrectly used to refer to forensic document examination."

Bolding mine.

[Jjeinn-tae]

OK, this thread has settled it, when I get my own business, I am making sure the website is purely written in Papyrus and Comic Sans. They've always been my favorite fonts (heck, I went to an online High School, I communicated almost exclusively in Comic Sans to my class mates for years) it's only natural to spread them to a world that hates them with a blind passion. :smalltongue:

[Trazoi]

OOTS is rendered as bitmaps (in PNG), so this argument is irrelevant here.
It's an argument for Comic Sans in general, not its use in webcomics. A big reason why it was horribly overused in websites during the 90s was there were only a handful of websafe fonts, and Comic Sans was the only casual one of the lot. Even today there's a huge gap where Comic Sans sits alone. The usual solution is to just not use a casual font in your website of course, but if you really want to... well, still don't. But if you really, really want to, you've got to make do with what you can do with Comic Sans.

[Esprit15]

You know what's really bad? The people who think a poster isn't complete without using every font in the bloody list!:smalltongue:
Wow, I did not mean for that to be the same number of words.

[Wanda V'Orcus]

While fonts do convey different meaning and tones to a written message, most of the "rage" is driven by "Somebody is WRONG on the internet, and by my amazing argumentative skills and forceful typing, I'm going to MAKE them change their minds!"

Kind of tedious, but that's human nature.

I believe this practice is known as "fontificating"...

:smallamused:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I believe this practice is known as "fontificating"...

:smallamused:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

I thought it was called "wanking." Maybe one of our British Playgroundees can clear this up?

Never mind, I totally misread your pun! :smallredface:

[Trixie]

What's wrong with Times New Roman? That's pretty much the default on most computers nowadays and I've never had any trouble with it.

TNR is excellent as a newspaper font. Or when you want to print something (though, Calibri's better, IMHO). However, it's rather poor choice when it comes to displaying words on screen. It's strengths become drawbacks then, and text becomes very tiring to read. It's basic human physiology, same with all other serif fonts.


I can seriously tell you there are people out there who will argue about the tiniest details of a font -- quite strenuously, in fact!!

Yup, silly people. Just like these who argue round wheels are better than square ones in a bike :smalltongue:


It helps make the thread easier to read if you don't post multiple times in a row. Plus, if someone wants to quote you now and respond to all your posts, they'd have to quote four different posts... you can imagine it would snowball from there.

Well, they can just multiquote, I guess?


i for one am a member of the society for the conservation of capitals, and i get ticked when people overuse capital letters in everything. did you know a cap letter takes 125% of the electricity to display on your screen, and 175 percent the bandwidth to transmit to others?

No. Just... No.

On some monitors, it's the smaller fonts that take more energy :P


(and as fonts go, I'm in love with Antykwa Półtawskiego)

It's not a good English font, though.

And maybe you should update 'localization' then ;P


Comic Sans looks really ugly when used in all-caps. Unfortunately it's the only web friendly comic font, so if you really need to use an all-caps comic font in webpages sometimes you have to use it.

Technically, that's not entirely true.

[KillianHawkeye]

Note that, if linking Wikipedia around the words "It's true!" you look a bit foolish when the first line linked is: "Graphology is the pseudoscientific[1][2][3][4][5][6] study and analysis of handwriting, especially in relation to human psychology. In the medical field, it can be used to refer to the study of handwriting as an aid in diagnosis and tracking of diseases of the brain and nervous system. The term is sometimes incorrectly used to refer to forensic document examination."

Bolding mine.

I meant that it's true that people do that, not that graphology is an infallible means of inferring personality traits. Sorry you misunderstood.

Anyways, I don't see something being pseudoscientific as meaning it completely lacks value.

[Trixie]

Anyways, I don't see something being pseudoscientific as meaning it completely lacks value.

In most cases, sadly, it's worse than worthless.

[VanBuren]

In most cases, sadly, it's worse than worthless.

By which you mean, I think, that it's actively harmful. Which is often true.

[KillianHawkeye]

Still missing my point.

[Knaight]

It appears as if this:

Anyways, I don't see something being pseudoscientific as meaning it completely lacks value.
was being responded to.

[Flickerdart]

However, it's rather poor choice when it comes to displaying words on screen. It's strengths become drawbacks then, and text becomes very tiring to read. It's basic human physiology, same with all other serif fonts.
Georgia.

The reason Comic Sans is a terrible typeface is not only because it's overused, but also because it's spotty. If you set a body of text in it, you'll see that the texture isn't even, which means that reading it is akin to moving your eyes back and forth across a cheese grater. It was fine back when it was a bitmap font, but the conversion to vectors sealed its fate.

[dps]

[COLOR="Red"] Comic sans MS is hated because it's used in many places where it's not appropriate, by people who just pick the prettiest font without thinking what they're using it for.

By why the hostility towards the font itself instead of those who use it inappropriately? It's as if a drunk driver ran over and killed your child, and instead of being angry with the driver, you got angry at his car.

[Knaight]

By why the hostility towards the font itself instead of those who use it inappropriately? It's as if a drunk driver ran over and killed your child, and instead of being angry with the driver, you got angry at his car.

Its more as if drunk driving wasn't regulated, drinking was viewed as a social necessity, and those who didn't drink alcohol shunned. In that environment, irritation and anger towards the culture around alcohol as well as individual drivers makes perfect sense. That alcohol itself and the person who made it get caught up in this is pretty much to be expected.

[Rockphed]

just because YOU can't tell the difference between two obviously different things doesn't mean that they aren't different. it means that YOU can't tell the difference.

I am fairly certain that if all I noticed about several sports was that they were played outside on grass and used a ball, I would not find their differences obvious. As it stands, many fonts have differences akin to those between softball and baseball. I won't take this metaphor much further because the most prevalent difference between baseball and softball is wrong. Namely women can play baseball and men can play softball.


Edited to say: Just to give an idea of how important typeface appearance has historically been: Gutenberg, the man who invented the movable type printing press around 1439, had several different typefaces made for it. So even at the very first flowering of modern print, publishers were already choosing different fonts for different purposes.


Gutenberg, what a boss. Already planning ahead.

Wonder what he'd have thought about Wingdings...

I saw a short documentary on the subject recently, and I think they said that he had something like 10 different 'E's. Gutenberg was trying to create a masterpiece, and I think he succeeded. Most of his books are still in a condition that if you didn't know they were 400 years old, you would never suspect it. Of course, one of the greatest things about his book was the margins. Them things was huge!


i for one am a member of the society for the conservation of capitals, and i get ticked when people overuse capital letters in everything. did you know a cap letter takes 125% of the electricity to display on your screen, and 175 percent the bandwidth to transmit to others?

Technically, if we got rid of one case or the other, our bandwidth requirement for text would go down by about 10%. As it stands, transmitting a capital should take exactly as much as transmitting any other character. I suppose if we were doing all our transmitting huffman style, that might work, but I doubt that is how modern communications work.

[The Giant]

OK, OK, this has spiraled out of control into several side-discussions, at least one of which is in poor taste. Let's wrap it up.

Thread locked.