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View Full Version : V's first duel won without outside help.



Ashadar
2011-08-24, 08:04 AM
Is it just me or is this V's first legitimately won duel? I mean, her very first duel was against Z at the very beginning where she had to ask the lawyers for help, then there was that Death Knight when she needed to be saved by a falling dragon head, then there was the dragon fight, where she had to get help from the IFCC, the Xykon fight where she got pummeled and then was helped by O-Chul...

I don't think there has been a situation up to date where she actually did anything useful when she was left all by herself. But now that she got her character developement and started using her brain, she took down 2 members of the Linear Guild all by herself. Do you remember any situations where V won a fight all by herself until this point?

Yuki Akuma
2011-08-24, 08:09 AM
...Dominating an enemy doesn't count as getting help?

Gandariel
2011-08-24, 08:13 AM
V also defeated on her own also the young black dragon, that's the first thing i can think of

Ashadar
2011-08-24, 08:31 AM
...Dominating an enemy doesn't count as getting help?

I figured someone was going to say something like that.. No, as Xykon would say.. V used every means at her disposal. By it's very nature, this fight was unfair, due to them being wizards, so she simply outthinked her enemy and devised a strategy to cheat the system. By herself. There's nothing wrong with that is there?

And yes, I forgot about the young black dragon. She wasn't exactly by herself but she killed the dragon without any help whatsoever. So I guess this makes it her second won duel?

KillianHawkeye
2011-08-24, 08:50 AM
He killed Trigak way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. He was supposed to be a recurring enemy, too. :smallannoyed:

Kish
2011-08-24, 08:51 AM
Belkar killed Trigak.

Craft (Cheese)
2011-08-24, 08:57 AM
No, as Xykon would say.. V used every means at her disposal.

Yet, using the soul splices to defeat the older black dragon counts as "outside help?"

Eurus
2011-08-24, 08:59 AM
I think the whole point is that it doesn't matter if you have "outside help" or not, except to your own pride. If V had been that concerned about winning "by himself", he probably would have died. :smallconfused:

Gnoman
2011-08-24, 09:03 AM
Yet, using the soul splices to defeat the older black dragon counts as "outside help?"

Yes. V won this fight purely and entirely through V's own power: Adding the kobold to the arsenal was accomplished by one of V's spells. The soul splices were an acto of a third party.

HandofShadows
2011-08-24, 09:08 AM
Yes. V won this fight purely and entirely through V's own power: Adding the kobold to the arsenal was accomplished by one of V's spells.

Yep. V plain out-thought Z. People (PC's and real ones) who use their heads are much more dangerouse then those that do not. As I think will be soon demonstrated by what will be going on in the arena shortly.

Cizak
2011-08-24, 09:32 AM
Yet, using the soul splices to defeat the older black dragon counts as "outside help?"

Indeed. The souls were a gift from the fiends; nothing V could have ewver get his hands on by himself. The kobold was on the other hand something V came up with and did all on his own.

Dalek Zek
2011-08-24, 09:37 AM
I would say that V won fore the first time by him/her self becouse it was the first time she/he stopt her/him self without his/her raven to help?

(sinse the soul splice that is)

137ben
2011-08-24, 09:48 AM
Belkar killed Trigak.

Yea, but V "defeated" it without Belkar.

ORione
2011-08-24, 10:32 AM
Vaarsuvius won here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html) And there were those titanium elements.

theNater
2011-08-24, 12:53 PM
Yes. V won this fight purely and entirely through V's own power: Adding the kobold to the arsenal was accomplished by one of V's spells.
By this reasoning, shouldn't the legal victory count as "no outside help"? V brought Yukyuk into this fight by magic and the lawyers into that one by cunning, but they both only helped because of V's actions.

FujinAkari
2011-08-24, 01:49 PM
By this reasoning, shouldn't the legal victory count as "no outside help"? V brought Yukyuk into this fight by magic and the lawyers into that one by cunning, but they both only helped because of V's actions.

No, because the lawyers were an outside power. V did not cast "Summon Lawyer I," they came of their own accord.

Dominate person, on the other hand, is one of V's abilities. Since the rules explicitly state that summoned monsters do not diminish a character's earned experience, since they are obtained via a spell; whether a wizard did the damage with a fireball or Summon Monster III, its all the wizard doing damage via one of his spells. It stands to reason that dominated enemies count as extensions of the wizard in the same way.

VanBuren
2011-08-24, 02:45 PM
I think the whole point is that it doesn't matter if you have "outside help" or not, except to your own pride. If V had been that concerned about winning "by himself", he probably would have died. :smallconfused:

^This. A million times this.

That's essentially the whole point of V's growth.

EDIT: And it contrasts with Z's pride. Z harps on how V "didn't" defeat him, showing that he hasn't grown beyond his crippling arrogance like V has (to some degree).

Phishfood
2011-08-24, 02:49 PM
By this reasoning, shouldn't the legal victory count as "no outside help"? V brought Yukyuk into this fight by magic and the lawyers into that one by cunning, but they both only helped because of V's actions.


That was a one off that could only have ever worked then. Dominating an archer is a re-usable tactic.

Ashadar
2011-08-24, 03:11 PM
By this reasoning, shouldn't the legal victory count as "no outside help"? V brought Yukyuk into this fight by magic and the lawyers into that one by cunning, but they both only helped because of V's actions.

Well the lawyer thing was more of an anticlimatic joke based on Z's name than a cunning plan on V's part, due to the comic being in it's early stages, when comedy outstaged plot at times.As Z has stated, they had no reason to actually take him away because parody is protected speech.

I do not count the soul splices as outside help(note that I am counting the Xykon fight while V still had 2 soul splices). What I am saying is that V got completely humiliated and out maneuvered by the dragon, and she probably barely believed it would work when she suggested the devil's bargain. She was just desperate.She lost the actual fight, she just got lucky because the IFCC had an eye on her for a long time. That's the only reason she won. For the Xykon fight she was completely aware of her power before jumping in, so a victory would have been legitimate.

As for the ogres and Trigak, I'd say those are indeed cases where V won all by herself, so I guess I was wrong in my original post. The young dragon, Trigak and the ogres may be cannon fodder compared to other foes, but they were enemies nonetheless.

And can we please stop using "hir", "he/she", "Xe" and all other forms of political correctness regarding V's gender? Can't you just use the gender you first thought V was when you started reading the comic?Isn't that the whole point of gender ambiguity? I for one always thought of V as female because Haley as the only female of the group would be weird and she wears pink. Until I started reading this forum I thought all the in comic gender comments from Belkar were him making fun of her because she was ugly. If you never actually thought of V as female or male, just use the generally accepted neutral pronoun "he". It'd make all these posts look so normal..

FujinAkari
2011-08-24, 03:16 PM
And can we please stop using "hir", "he/she", "Xe" and all other forms of political correctness regarding V's gender? Can't you just use the gender you first thought V was when you started reading the comic?

No :P

People will use whichever pronoun they consider correct. Since I am not able to define V's gender, I tend to use hir, unless I screw up.

You are free to do whichever feels right, but you can't tell others how they should write.

Mutant Sheep
2011-08-24, 03:18 PM
No :P

People will use whichever pronoun they consider correct. Since I am not able to define V's gender, I tend to use hir, unless I screw up.

You are free to do whichever feels right, but you can't tell others how they should write.

Bah! Why use "hir" and "xe" when you can just use V as a pronoun? It sounds like "she/he" anyway, why not?:smallbiggrin: Ver, Vis, whats with the X guys? Seriously.

And yeah, V beat the young dragon, and that Chimera with a name that nobody but Belkar remembers, and a couple goblins once.:smallbiggrin:

Narren
2011-08-24, 03:23 PM
No, because the lawyers were an outside power. V did not cast "Summon Lawyer I," they came of their own accord.

Dominate person, on the other hand, is one of V's abilities. Since the rules explicitly state that summoned monsters do not diminish a character's earned experience, since they are obtained via a spell; whether a wizard did the damage with a fireball or Summon Monster III, its all the wizard doing damage via one of his spells. It stands to reason that dominated enemies count as extensions of the wizard in the same way.

But the lawyers didn't just randomly show up. V had to think fast, and brought up the copyright infringement so that the lawyers would show up and cart Z away. He practically DID summon them, only he used the Rule of Funny instead of magic.

If you overcome a challenge, you get the experience for that challenge. If I use my last bullet to shoot the lock (I know that doesn't actually work) to a cage full of angry bears and they eat my enemies, I would still get the exp. I agree that the lawyer example is a bit gray, but I still give V credit for disposing of his enemy.

fill-in-name
2011-08-24, 04:26 PM
I wouldn't really call the fight with the Young Black Dragon won without help. V would have been dead if Haley hadn't shot it in the eye to make it drop V. True, V did prove that he could easily take down a Young Black Dragon in his normal, non-hex'ed, and rested state, but the Order walked into that one with V already hexed and in poor condition to handle such a threat.

Unless you want to considered it a different encounter due to having time to rest and have the hex removed, then, sure, V won a duel against a Suggested Monster on his own.

Porthos
2011-08-24, 05:02 PM
<nitpick>
V didn't win this fight as he was shunted to a random dimension just when things were reaching a conclusion. :smallwink:
</nitpick>

MagusBloodsoak
2011-08-24, 05:45 PM
V doesn't have many duels because most enemies are killed by him in one shot. Other fights are plot railroads forcing him to lose (v.s Xykon), or when he is low on spells (Death Knight). However of all the OOTS V has the most impressive victories.

137ben
2011-08-24, 05:58 PM
However of all the OOTS V has the most impressive victories.

Honestly, I was more impressed by Roy beating Xykon in DCF. Then again, it is fairly impressive to beat someone who is specifically optimized against you...
(V beating Z was probably the next most impressive).

Mastikator
2011-08-24, 06:05 PM
I'd say V beating the Epic Level Pit Fiend was the most impressive, though that was with some help of Durkon.
That thing had to be like CR 40.

Querzis
2011-08-24, 06:13 PM
But the lawyers didn't just randomly show up. V had to think fast, and brought up the copyright infringement so that the lawyers would show up and cart Z away. He practically DID summon them, only he used the Rule of Funny instead of magic.

It wasnt funny, just anticlimatic. Also Z wasnt defeated, just taken away. And, a lot more importantly, it shoudnt have worked anyway (not just because Z is a parody but because, what the hell were the lawyers doing there within hearing distance anyway?) It wasnt cunning, it was just desperate.


If you overcome a challenge, you get the experience for that challenge. If I use my last bullet to shoot the lock (I know that doesn't actually work) to a cage full of angry bears and they eat my enemies, I would still get the exp.

...hum nope. You'd probably get Xp for the clever idea though...if the bears dont just eat you after they're done eating your enemies since I see absolutely no reason why they woudnt.


V doesn't have many duels because most enemies are killed by him in one shot. Other fights are plot railroads forcing him to lose (v.s Xykon), or when he is low on spells (Death Knight). However of all the OOTS V has the most impressive victories.

Except the titanium elementals, I dont remember him one-shotting anything. Hell, even the Young Black Dragon would have just eaten V without Haley. Also, V v.s Xykon wasnt a plot railroad, it was V trying to beat a lich in his own lair while surrounded by the lich allies. As far as I'm concerned, V should have actually lost that duel much sooner then that.


<nitpick>
V didn't win this fight as he was shunted to a random dimension just when things were reaching a conclusion. :smallwink:
</nitpick>

That too. Yeah sure, V took out Z...but Z took out V as well. Mind you, this is a victory for the OOTS as a whole since V basically took out Z and the Kobold...but Z took out V and Haley too anyway. And thats not counting the fact that, because of V banned school, he wont get back in the game anytime soon while Z just need a few healing spells.

enderlord99
2011-08-24, 06:29 PM
However of all the OOTS V has the most impressive victories.

What about Durkon's "...controlweathercontrolweathercontrolweather... one Mississippi...":smallamused:

Narren
2011-08-24, 06:55 PM
It wasnt funny, just anticlimatic. Also Z wasnt defeated, just taken away. And, a lot more importantly, it shoudnt have worked anyway (not just because Z is a parody but because, what the hell were the lawyers doing there within hearing distance anyway?) It wasnt cunning, it was just desperate.

Really? You're wondering why the lawyers were within hearing distance? It was a joke. I thought it was funny, and I'm sure others did too. But that's not the first or last time that this comic ignores reality or even continuity to make a joke. You really can't analyze this comic with a literal eye.



...hum nope. You'd probably get Xp for the clever idea though...if the bears dont just eat you after they're done eating your enemies since I see absolutely no reason why they woudnt.


Because I slipped away in the confusion, or whatever. It was just an example. I suppose every DM is different, but I don't require my players to HAVE to use force to overcome an encounter. If they can trick their enemies into killing each other, I give them XP for defeating all of them.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 12:54 AM
While it wasn't a duel as there were others fighting with him, V beat a major demon that resembled a Pit Fiend practically singlehanded.

Chronos
2011-08-25, 01:16 AM
There was also Kubota, though he wasn't exactly a challenging opponent.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 01:25 AM
I'd say V beating the Epic Level Pit Fiend was the most impressive, though that was with some help of Durkon.
That thing had to be like CR 40.

Pit Fiend is CR20. While this one may have been tougher, mainly it was his size that indicates that. But in OOTS differentials in size class are exaggerated. (The creatures fear aura and melee attacks being overcome like they were makes me think he wasn't that strong for a Pit Fiend, really.)

Sarco_Phage
2011-08-25, 01:27 AM
While it wasn't a duel as there were others fighting with him, V beat a major demon that resembled a Pit Fiend practically singlehanded.

That wasn't just a Pit Fiend, it was something much, much larger. I suspect a Duke of hell.

As it stands, she really does have the vast majority of impressive victories, but that's mainly due to her standard solution to problems: make them go boom.


Pit Fiend is CR20. While this one may have been tougher, mainly it was his size that indicates that. But in OOTS differentials in size class are exaggerated. (The creatures fear aura and melee attacks being overcome like they were makes me think he wasn't that strong for a Pit Fiend, really.)

I don't think the fear aura would have worked so well on a bunch of Paladins and a high-level Wizard and Cleric.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 01:33 AM
That wasn't just a Pit Fiend, it was something much, much larger. I suspect a Duke of hell.

As it stands, she really does have the vast majority of impressive victories, but that's mainly due to her standard solution to problems: make them go boom.



I don't think the fear aura would have worked so well on a bunch of Paladins and a high-level Wizard and Cleric.

I don't think it's size is an indicator of its species much. Size scaling is different in OOTS than standard D&D.

V and Durkon will be getting, what, maybe +10? 12? 15 to will? 27 is the save for a standard Pit Fiend's fear. Something much stronger than a Pit Fiend? I think they would have run away. I am not saying Vs victory wasn't powerful. Only that it probably wasn't anything significantly higher than CR20.

Sarco_Phage
2011-08-25, 01:37 AM
I don't think it's size is an indicator of its species much. Size scaling is different in OOTS than standard D&D.

I know that, but then this thing was really, really, really big. Like, huge. Like, Godzilla big.

A regular pit fiend would have stood roughly Durkon's height when using Thor's Might, though in the OotSverse goblins and sprites are Medium sized.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 01:43 AM
I know that, but then this thing was really, really, really big. Like, huge. Like, Godzilla big.

A regular pit fiend would have stood roughly Durkon's height when using Thor's Might, though in the OotSverse goblins and sprites are Medium sized.

But Durkon grows disproportionately tall with Thors Might, anyway. Certainly not that tall, though, you are right. I tend to think it was something weaker then a Pit Fiend, actually, as it didn't seem to have a Spell Resistance above 30 and tons of abilities, (unholy aura, create greater undead, invisibility, mass hold monster, a death poison, magic circle against good, etc. etc.) It could be some made up type of devil that is bigger than a pit fiend but almost entirely physical in its attacks and tactics.

Sarco_Phage
2011-08-25, 01:47 AM
But Durkon grows disproportionately tall with Thors Might, anyway. Certainly not that tall, though, you are right. I tend to think it was something weaker then a Pit Fiend, actually, as it didn't seem to have a Spell Resistance above 30 and tons of abilities, (unholy aura, create greater undead, invisibility, mass hold monster, a death poison, magic circle against good, etc. etc.) It could be some made up type of devil that is bigger than a pit fiend but almost entirely physical in its attacks and tactics.

I don't know, it could be a Pit Fiend, albeit a really dumb one (dumb Pit Fiend however is an oxymoron). We do know it was dumb enough to wager a future service marker in a game it was sure to lose, so perhaps it wouldn't quite have been bright enough to use its more powerful abilities.

The question of course remains as to how it became a Pit Fiend in the first place - if it is even a Pit Fiend - if it is that dumb.

The Succubus
2011-08-25, 03:48 AM
No, because the lawyers were an outside power. V did not cast "Summon Lawyer I," they came of their own accord.

Cue someone statting out Summon Lawyer I in T minus 5...4....

Ghostwheel
2011-08-25, 04:09 AM
Is it just me or is this V's first legitimately won duel? I mean, her very first duel was against Z at the very beginning where she had to ask the lawyers for help, then there was that Death Knight when she needed to be saved by a falling dragon head, then there was the dragon fight, where she had to get help from the IFCC, the Xykon fight where she got pummeled and then was helped by O-Chul...

I don't think there has been a situation up to date where she actually did anything useful when she was left all by herself. But now that she got her character developement and started using her brain, she took down 2 members of the Linear Guild all by herself. Do you remember any situations where V won a fight all by herself until this point?

V got Plane-shifted. How is that winning anything?

BlackestOfMages
2011-08-25, 06:27 AM
I don't know, it could be a Pit Fiend, albeit a really dumb one (dumb Pit Fiend however is an oxymoron). We do know it was dumb enough to wager a future service marker in a game it was sure to lose, so perhaps it wouldn't quite have been bright enough to use its more powerful abilities.

The question of course remains as to how it became a Pit Fiend in the first place - if it is even a Pit Fiend - if it is that dumb.

it could, quite eaisly, have just been a big demon* summoned for the sake of comedy, rather than needing to be a fleshed out DnD encounter with a CR. also, V had a lot of help there, what with Durkon's curse, and the thing taking a pounding from a high level paladin with a silver weapon, and his direwolf mount with silver chompers messing up it's will save...

and obviously, in the first encounter, V used summon lawyer 2 as he got two of them :P in all fairness however, that's still his victory as he thought of how to do it - unless you only count as winning if you have no brain and just blast them into oblivion...

* or devil or deamon etc, I just prefer the name demon rather than fiend as it sounds better

Ashadar
2011-08-25, 07:33 AM
V may have gotten plane shifted, but she still took Z and the kobold out of the game. She can get back into battle after Durkon plane shifts her out of there. It's still a win.

I'm not counting the lawyer's bit as a victory simply because it was an one off joke and it should be treated as such. Back then the lawyers just appeared out of nowhere whenever it was comically appropriate and she took advantage of that fact. If that same situation were to occur now that the comic's more serious, that same trick wouldn't work, because the lawyers wouldnt in fact be there.

Oh and I thought of the Pit lord fight, but there were just too many involved in that fight to give the credit entirely to V. Sure the prismatic spray was what got him in the end, but he was already weakened from all the other attacks.

Xapi
2011-08-25, 08:24 AM
V may have gotten plane shifted, but she still took Z and the kobold out of the game. She can get back into battle after Durkon plane shifts her out of there. It's still a win.

I'm not counting the lawyer's bit as a victory simply because it was an one off joke and it should be treated as such. Back then the lawyers just appeared out of nowhere whenever it was comically appropriate and she took advantage of that fact. If that same situation were to occur now that the comic's more serious, that same trick wouldn't work, because the lawyers wouldnt in fact be there.

Oh and I thought of the Pit lord fight, but there were just too many involved in that fight to give the credit entirely to V. Sure the prismatic spray was what got him in the end, but he was already weakened from all the other attacks.


1: Unless she does get herself back in the game in time to help, the duel was effectively a draw. Each party is now down two members (Haley and V vs YukYuk and Z). So far the most succesful character in this fight for the OotS has been Elan, no kidding (assuming he lost Nale and will find Durkon before anyone else gets to him, specially if Haley is brought back as a result).

2: The young black dragon and the pit fiend or whatever are both clearly defeated by V. Yes she got "help", but she did the most of the work. The PF being weakened by attacks or not has no bearing on the matter, being low on HP doesn't make it easier for someone to turn you to stone (it's a Fortitude save IIRC).

Kish
2011-08-25, 08:44 AM
* or devil or deamon etc, I just prefer the name demon rather than fiend as it sounds better
Silver vulnerability, summoned by an imp: no ambiguity, it was a devil.

Killer Angel
2011-08-25, 09:00 AM
Yes. V won this fight purely and entirely through V's own power: Adding the kobold to the arsenal was accomplished by one of V's spells. The soul splices were an acto of a third party.

Well, technically, you can dominate only someone who's present. In a vacuum (or in an arena battle), dominate would have been useless.
Is the trick: Candle, gate, loop and so on, winning by yourself? You're merely using your own equipment...


While it wasn't a duel as there were others fighting with him, V beat a major demon that resembled a Pit Fiend practically singlehanded.

Except, without Durkon's help (which was explicitly required by V.), the devil would have probably passed the ST.
But yeah, definitely a very good performance from him.


V got Plane-shifted. How is that winning anything?

Indeed.
V. losed this fight.
Or, at least, he did not win. Maybe a tie?

SowZ
2011-08-25, 10:54 AM
V got Plane-shifted. How is that winning anything?

The plane shift was not V being defeated. Z had already lost. The plane shift is probably barely an inconvenience and only served to prevent Z from being killed by V. At the end of the day, V will be safe, (most likely,) and Z will be in prison. Chalk one up for V.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 11:02 AM
I don't know, it could be a Pit Fiend, albeit a really dumb one (dumb Pit Fiend however is an oxymoron). We do know it was dumb enough to wager a future service marker in a game it was sure to lose, so perhaps it wouldn't quite have been bright enough to use its more powerful abilities.

The question of course remains as to how it became a Pit Fiend in the first place - if it is even a Pit Fiend - if it is that dumb.

Which is what is getting me to think it is something else entirely. High DR. Collosall size. Tons of HP. Natural Armor out the wazoo. Strength and Con all through the roof. Some Spell Resistance. Etc. Etc. But few special abilities. Although such a creature would have a high Fortitude, making the turn to stone effect difficult to pull off... Just throwing things out there to get an idea the type of creature V killed so she can get proper credit for her actions. Still not a duel, though.

Xapi
2011-08-25, 11:13 AM
The plane shift was not V being defeated. Z had already lost. The plane shift is probably barely an inconvenience and only served to prevent Z from being killed by V. At the end of the day, V will be safe, (most likely,) and Z will be in prison. Chalk one up for V.

We need to define winning or loosing in terms of each sides objectives.

The LG's objective seems to be capturing Elan and preventing him or any other OotS member from warning Nale.

Z's objective was to take the OotS's primary caster out of the fight, and maybe take Haley out as well, and (presumably) return to Nale to continue their plan and help against the rest of the OotS. He was clearly not worried about Elan running away.

He was able to get his objectives done, yet at a high cost, both him and YukYuk are out of the fight now. If V gets back to the regular plane in time to alter the course of the overall fight, I guess we could call it a win, but so far I'd say this has been a draw.

Querzis
2011-08-25, 11:15 AM
The plane shift was not V being defeated. Z had already lost. The plane shift is probably barely an inconvenience and only served to prevent Z from being killed by V. At the end of the day, V will be safe, (most likely,) and Z will be in prison. Chalk one up for V.

A wizard doesnt lose as long as he can still cast a spell, which Z did. Yes, once again, V took out Z...but Z can be back in the fight just with any healing spells while V is effectively out of the fight entirely until Durkon free him from there. So yeah, its definitly a draw, V took out Z and the kobold but Z took out V and Haley. Now of course, all 4 of those can get back into the fight thanks to their respective cleric (assuming the Linear Guild got a cleric...which is pretty likely.)

SowZ
2011-08-25, 11:30 AM
A wizard doesnt lose as long as he can still cast a spell, which Z did. Yes, once again, V took out Z...but Z can be back in the fight just with any healing spells while V is effectively out of the fight entirely until Durkon free him from there. So yeah, its definitly a draw, V took out Z and the kobold but Z took out V and Haley. Now of course, all 4 of those can get back into the fight thanks to their respective cleric (assuming the Linear Guild got a cleric...which is pretty likely.)

Z is knocked out and presumably in prison. If we are saying winning the duel is to achieve ones primary objectives, sure, it is up in the air. If we are saying winning the duel is more simple and just requires beating the other guy, at the end of it all Z is unconscious V is conscious- Z is imprisoned V is free.

Querzis
2011-08-25, 11:54 AM
Z is knocked out and presumably in prison. If we are saying winning the duel is to achieve ones primary objectives, sure, it is up in the air. If we are saying winning the duel is more simple and just requires beating the other guy, at the end of it all Z is unconscious V is conscious- Z is imprisoned V is free.

Z will surely be conscious by the time V get back anyway and no, V is not free. Being in another plane with all the spells that could get you out of there being in your banned school of magic is most definitly not being free. Hell, if Durkon get killed, hes not even gonna be able to get out of there.

And by the way, yes, winning is most definitly accomplishing your objective. Now mind you, lots of people can simply have beating the other guy as their only objective.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 12:02 PM
Z will surely be conscious by the time V get back anyway and no, V is not free. Being in another plane with all the spells that could get you out of there being in your banned school of magic is most definitly not being free. Hell, if Durkon get killed, hes not even gonna be able to get out of there.

And by the way, yes, winning is most definitly accomplishing your objective. Now mind you, lots of people can simply have beating the other guy as their only objective.

I was saying when it is all over, I am almost sure V will be free and it is most likely Z is imprisoned. As for right now, V knocked Z out and Z did not know V out, just away. But right now, it is not over. It is possible the fight will continue, (unlikely,) or both V and Z escape before the day is through in which case no one won that specific duel, (though whether the OOTS or the Linear Guild come out on top remains to be seen.)

Beating someone in general has to do with goals, but when most people say who won a duel they mean who beat the other guy in a fight.

dps
2011-08-25, 02:26 PM
The way I look at it, Z defeated Haley, V defeated Z, and Z and V fought to a draw. So in a two against one fight, V defeated one opponent and drew another, without any outside help.

rbetieh
2011-08-25, 04:02 PM
Did anyone mention V beatine nale yet? I don't think I saw that one yet.

Dr.Epic
2011-08-25, 04:13 PM
While it wasn't a duel as there were others fighting with him, V beat a major demon that resembled a Pit Fiend practically singlehanded.

Yeah, single handed, except for Durkon, Lien, and Hinjo. Oh, and we don't know the creature was actually a pit fiend so we can't be sure of the CR since Rich uses his own creations all the time so it could just be something that resembles a pit fiend.

Mutant Sheep
2011-08-25, 04:16 PM
Yeah, single handed, except for Durkon, Lien, and Hinjo. Oh, and we don't know the creature was actually a pit fiend so we can't be sure of the CR since Rich uses his own creations all the time so it could just be something that resembles a pit fiend.

He did say "resembled a pit fiend".:smalltongue: He also mentioned fighting with others. (though he did say singlehandedly too.)

Dr.Epic
2011-08-25, 04:23 PM
He did say "resembled a pit fiend".:smalltongue:

And I'm saying that just because something resembles something doesn't mean it (comes close to) matches the strength of the creature.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 05:00 PM
Yeah, single handed, except for Durkon, Lien, and Hinjo. Oh, and we don't know the creature was actually a pit fiend so we can't be sure of the CR since Rich uses his own creations all the time so it could just be something that resembles a pit fiend.

Practically single-handed, which I stand by. Lien and Hinjo did not really change the outcome except by distracting it a little bit until it noticed the real threat. Whatever damage they did was not completely negligible. Even if it did hurt its HP significantly, (which I highly doubt,) it didn't die from HP loss. The thing that killed it in one shot was cast by V and the only one who helped V was Durkon with a small amount of support casting.


And I'm saying that just because something resembles something doesn't mean it (comes close to) matches the strength of the creature.

I never said it did. Earlier in the thread, I have said I think it is a related but weaker creature based on, (apparent,) lack of SR and special abilities. Considering its size and its resemblance to a Pit Fiend, though, I think it is most likely V defeated a creature whose CR was greater than her level.


He did say "resembled a pit fiend".:smalltongue: He also mentioned fighting with others. (though he did say singlehandedly too.)

Aye. :smallsmile:

Ted The Bug
2011-08-25, 05:52 PM
IMO, the lawyers don't count because their arrival was not specific to V. Roy, Haley, or even Elan (if he knew big enough words) could have done the exact same thing. Also, DCF was a very different book in terms of serious-ness than the following ones. Roy's defeat of Xykon was at best a deus ex machina, and at worst just a joke.

What's important isn't whether V wins with or without 'outside help' it's whether V wins at all. Xykon was on the verge of defeat in the Azure City throne room, and without Redcloak's healing, probably would have either lost or had to retreat. Even with Redcloak, the only thing preventing Soon from killing him was Miko's sudden destruction of the sapphire. Does this mean that Xykon 'should' have died? No, it meant that he saw a chance to escape, took it, and reaped the benefits by living (well, y'know, being a lich) another day. No, V didn't defeat Z singlehandedly, but Z wasn't working alone either. Nale and the LG gave Z the resources and ability to attack V in a situation that worked to Z's advantage. Had Z decided to just attack V out of the blue with no preparation, who knows where the fight could've gone?

Xykon's lesson is that a victory is a victory, and it doesn't matter who considers it legitimate or not. So maybe V 'cheated' by using a kobold. Z can complain about that all it wants. V still won the day, and there's nothing Z can do about it.

Dr.Epic
2011-08-25, 06:34 PM
Practically single-handed, which I stand by. Lien and Hinjo did not really change the outcome except by distracting it a little bit until it noticed the real threat. Whatever damage they did was not completely negligible. Even if it did hurt its HP significantly, (which I highly doubt,) it didn't die from HP loss. The thing that killed it in one shot was cast by V and the only one who helped V was Durkon with a small amount of support casting.

I never said it did. Earlier in the thread, I have said I think it is a related but weaker creature based on, (apparent,) lack of SR and special abilities. Considering its size and its resemblance to a Pit Fiend, though, I think it is most likely V defeated a creature whose CR was greater than her level.

Thing about this comic is the rolls are all contrived. Rich decides if a character rolls high or low. That's how Miko was able to take down the Order, Haley hit Nale in the Dungeon of Dorukan, etc: a series of INCREDIBLE dice rolls. The fact remains we don't know the CR and stats of the beast, and even if we did, we'd still have to consider Rich had the battle adjusted.

SowZ
2011-08-25, 06:53 PM
Thing about this comic is the rolls are all contrived. Rich decides if a character rolls high or low. That's how Miko was able to take down the Order, Haley hit Nale in the Dungeon of Dorukan, etc: a series of INCREDIBLE dice rolls. The fact remains we don't know the CR and stats of the beast, and even if we did, we'd still have to consider Rich had the battle adjusted.

That doesn't diminish Vs victory. However he cast the spell that killed the devil, he cast it and it won the day.

Dr.Epic
2011-08-25, 06:55 PM
That doesn't diminish Vs victory. However he cast the spell that killed the devil, he cast it and it won the day.

Except Rich can manipulate the rolls like I said. What's to say the "pit fiend" didn't roll a natural one on it's save because the plot says so?

SowZ
2011-08-25, 07:08 PM
Except Rich can manipulate the rolls like I said. What's to say the "pit fiend" didn't roll a natural one on it's save because the plot says so?

If the plot says V is capable of defeating a Pit Fiend, V is capable of defeating a Pit Fiend.

Morph Bark
2011-08-25, 07:11 PM
Belkar killed Trigak.

Who's Trigak?

Mutant Sheep
2011-08-25, 07:13 PM
Who's Trigak?

Dat a joke? Hes the chimera from way in the beginning. That Belkar killed when it was swearing to kill them and their little dog after being groped and harassed.

Ashadar
2011-08-25, 07:31 PM
Who's Trigak?

Ahahaha, that made me laugh. I was reading the argument between Dr Epic and Sowz before this post and out of the blue I see a question referring to 40 posts ago. I don't know if it was intended as a joke or to break the tension, but it was funny nonetheless =D .

Dr.Epic
2011-08-25, 07:33 PM
If the plot says V is capable of defeating a Pit Fiend, V is capable of defeating a Pit Fiend.

Yes but you're ignoring the random factor, that is dice rolls. V doesn't have to be powerful. Luck, dice (that is plot) was favoring V. In any story the stronger person is the one who wins and yes it is contrived due to the writer(s) wanting them to win to make the story work, but I accept they were more powerful because the story isn't based on the rules of D&D. In D&D, a level one character could beat a level ten give the right dice rolls. That's what I'm saying. We don't know and can't say V is more powerful because the dice were rigged with the plot. That's kind of how the whole comic works: the dice rolls are rigged to suit the plot. It's not about power, it's about lucky dice rolls.

druid91
2011-08-25, 07:37 PM
No :P

People will use whichever pronoun they consider correct. Since I am not able to define V's gender, I tend to use hir, unless I screw up.

You are free to do whichever feels right, but you can't tell others how they should write.

Technically the correct pronoun is he. Unless of course we ever do find out that he's a girl. Then it's she.

See you have to definitely be a girl to qualify for a she. He can be ambiguous.

Sarco_Phage
2011-08-25, 07:37 PM
Yes but you're ignoring the random factor, that is dice rolls. V doesn't have to be powerful. Luck, dice (that is plot) was favoring V. In any story the stronger person is the one who wins and yes it is contrived due to the writer(s) wanting them to win to make the story work, but I accept they were more powerful because the story isn't based on the rules of D&D. In D&D, a level one character could beat a level ten give the right dice rolls. That's what I'm saying. We don't know and can't say V is more powerful because the dice were rigged with the plot. That's kind of how the whole comic works: the dice rolls are rigged to suit the plot. It's not about power, it's about lucky dice rolls.

Every underdog story ever invalidates your point about the "stronger person" being the one who wins. Also? What you're saying here is that dice rolls are indistinguishable from plot. Yes, we'd established that.

Acanous
2011-08-25, 08:15 PM
Z can complain about that all it wants. V still won the day, and there's nothing Z can do about it.

Except, ya know, Plane Shift.

Narren
2011-08-25, 08:15 PM
Yes but you're ignoring the random factor, that is dice rolls. V doesn't have to be powerful. Luck, dice (that is plot) was favoring V. In any story the stronger person is the one who wins and yes it is contrived due to the writer(s) wanting them to win to make the story work, but I accept they were more powerful because the story isn't based on the rules of D&D. In D&D, a level one character could beat a level ten give the right dice rolls. That's what I'm saying. We don't know and can't say V is more powerful because the dice were rigged with the plot. That's kind of how the whole comic works: the dice rolls are rigged to suit the plot. It's not about power, it's about lucky dice rolls.

So dice rolls = luck, but the only time that a being can defeat another being in a story NOT based on D&D is if they're more powerful? I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.

So does that mean that luck (or "dice rolls") does not exist in any story not based on a rules system (however loosely)? That means that no one will EVER beat someone stronger than them without a rules system to back it up?

Ashadar
2011-08-26, 07:28 AM
Xykon's lesson is that a victory is a victory, and it doesn't matter who considers it legitimate or not. So maybe V 'cheated' by using a kobold. Z can complain about that all it wants. V still won the day, and there's nothing Z can do about it.

I've seen this mentioned before. People seem to get the wrong idea that Z actually cares about how V won. When he said V cheated he was just trying to piss her off, taking advantage of her ego, and would have succeeded if it weren't for the whole Xykon incident. If V got pissed off she probably would have wasted her round firing some cheap evocation spell, and Z may have had a chance to break the enchantment on the kobold.

VanBuren
2011-08-26, 05:56 PM
I've seen this mentioned before. People seem to get the wrong idea that Z actually cares about how V won. When he said V cheated he was just trying to piss her off, taking advantage of her ego, and would have succeeded if it weren't for the whole Xykon incident. If V got pissed off she probably would have wasted her round firing some cheap evocation spell, and Z may have had a chance to break the enchantment on the kobold.

Any evidence for this? I find it just as likely that Z is as arrogant and prideful as V once was.

The MunchKING
2011-08-26, 06:08 PM
EDIT: And it contrasts with Z's pride. Z harps on how V "didn't" defeat him, showing that he hasn't grown beyond his crippling arrogance like V has (to some degree).

Or he was trying to distact V, and get her to cast all her spells, rather than use Yikyik to shoot him.

Sarco_Phage
2011-08-26, 06:12 PM
I'm really not sure why Z is meant to be a point of contrast for V. We haven't seen any evidence that Z is arrogant and prideful other than the fact that he's an elf. In fact, he's extremely practical, considering he focused his entire build and spell list specifically towards killing her. If he were prideful he'd have gone into that fight without a build tailored against V's strengths.

Considering that Z barely even has a speaking role in this comic, I doubt he's meant to be a specific contrast, where V's character growth is highlighted by his lack thereof. It's more likely that he was trying to get her off her game.

Querzis
2011-08-27, 05:12 AM
I'm really not sure why Z is meant to be a point of contrast for V. We haven't seen any evidence that Z is arrogant and prideful other than the fact that he's an elf. In fact, he's extremely practical, considering he focused his entire build and spell list specifically towards killing her. If he were prideful he'd have gone into that fight without a build tailored against V's strengths.

Considering that Z barely even has a speaking role in this comic, I doubt he's meant to be a specific contrast, where V's character growth is highlighted by his lack thereof. It's more likely that he was trying to get her off her game.

Z is a contrast for V because he barely have a spoken role. V is very long-winded, thats the joke. Also being prideful doesnt mean you cant be practical...hell you can be proud about the fact that you are very practical. Orcs in Warcraft have Pride and Pragmatism as two of their defining traits! Pride means you think you're awesome, that you have no regrets about your past actions and that you believe most things you do are great, it doesnt means you're gonna jump off a bridge or go fight an army by yourself and expect to survive just because you think you're awesome.

Ashadar
2011-08-27, 06:00 AM
Any evidence for this? I find it just as likely that Z is as arrogant and prideful as V once was.

Given the fact that we have no proof that Z is arrogant or not, think about it like this: You are seconds away from dying. What is the first thing that comes to your mind (arrogant prick or not)? Do you give up and end your life with an "in your face" comment that will prove your everlasting superiority over your enemy, or do you take the logical step and try to distract the enemy, especially when knowing she has an ego problem?

Edit: Also, the plane shift out of the blue further indicates that Z was stalling/distracting V in my opinion.

paddyfool
2011-08-27, 06:24 AM
Somewhere between 385 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) and 397 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), it looks like V won another confrontation (although Durkon would have helped, at the very least by being an alternative target).

British Panda
2011-08-27, 02:13 PM
But the lawyers didn't just randomly show up. V had to think fast, and brought up the copyright infringement so that the lawyers would show up and cart Z away. He practically DID summon them, only he used the Rule of Funny instead of magic.

If you overcome a challenge, you get the experience for that challenge. If I use my last bullet to shoot the lock (I know that doesn't actually work) to a cage full of angry bears and they eat my enemies, I would still get the exp. I agree that the lawyer example is a bit gray, but I still give V credit for disposing of his enemy.

But... You're missing the point, it isn't about whether V won, of course V won, Z was taken away by law enforcement.

V won the fight but the lawyers are outside citizens, and are therefore outside help. Without their aid V wouldn't have won.

The Kobald on the other hand, was not intending to help V, he was dominated and forced to fight on V's side. That isn't outside help, that's V using his spells to control the fight. Now if the kobald had chosen to come in and beat Z himself, that would have been outside help.

V won both fights fair and square, but won the first one because an outside force willingly sided itself against Z, whereas the second he forced the outsided force to help...

If that makes any sense. :smallconfused:

zimmerwald1915
2011-08-27, 04:58 PM
Which is what is getting me to think it is something else entirely. High DR. Collosall size. Tons of HP. Natural Armor out the wazoo. Strength and Con all through the roof. Some Spell Resistance. Etc. Etc. But few special abilities. Although such a creature would have a high Fortitude, making the turn to stone effect difficult to pull off... Just throwing things out there to get an idea the type of creature V killed so she can get proper credit for her actions. Still not a duel, though.
It had an ability that looked very much like Meteor Swarm.


Z will surely be conscious by the time V get back anyway and no, V is not free. Being in another plane with all the spells that could get you out of there being in your banned school of magic is most definitly not being free. Hell, if Durkon get killed, hes not even gonna be able to get out of there.

And by the way, yes, winning is most definitly accomplishing your objective. Now mind you, lots of people can simply have beating the other guy as their only objective.
Well, there's a lot of hoo-hah about Z's objective (in any case, according the semi-reliable source that is Qarr, Z's objective was killing V), but what about V's? As she told Elan before Hasting him, her objective was to keep Z from interfering with Elan's warning Durkon about the Linear Guild. She has prevented Z from interfering with Elan's warning Durkon. Note, she has not prevented Nale and Sabine from interfering with Elan's warning Durkon, but that was outside her stated objective.

The way it's been presented to us in the comic, Z failed at his objective of killing V, while V succeeded in her objective of keeping Z from interfering with Elan.

SowZ
2011-08-27, 05:24 PM
It had an ability that looked very much like Meteor Swarm.

Sure, any strong devil is going to have some special abilities. It just seemed like this one's list was sufficiently smaller then a Pit Fiends.

TheMac04
2011-08-27, 06:29 PM
Except Rich can manipulate the rolls like I said. What's to say the "pit fiend" didn't roll a natural one on it's save because the plot says so?

And what difference does that make? Unlucky dice rolls are part of a duel too.

It's a moot point, obviously, because it WASN'T A DUEL, but I just think this was a weak argument. C'mon Doc, I expect more from you.

Sarco_Phage
2011-08-31, 06:19 AM
Sure, any strong devil is going to have some special abilities. It just seemed like this one's list was sufficiently smaller then a Pit Fiends.

I'm still going with "Pit Fiend dumb enough to bet big on a losing hand" and therefore "Pit Fiend not bright enough to maximize his spell-like abilities".

I mean, we never see V casting, say, Acid Arrow. That doesn't mean we should rule out the possibility of her having it as one of her spells without any proof to the opposite, and in this case that proof is the whole barred school - conjuration thing.

Threadnaught
2011-08-31, 08:27 AM
V did defeat Trigak the Chimera, that's one win. I know Belkar stole the kill, but V already won and he was running away.

The next duel was between her and Z, who was dominating her the whole fight and the only reason she survived was due to her knowledge of that annoying Drow. It wasn't a duel after that, V didn't win by fighting Z, she relied on Elan's class ability to save her.

The Black Dragon was won by V, but would've killed V if Haley didn't save her.

Leaky Windstaff (or whatever the Druid was called) utterly beat down V, then again he did have Treants helping him. But even without the deadly walking trees, he had beaten both V and Haley, it took Durkon, Roy and Thor to bring him down, he's probably the most powerful enemy the order have ever faced.

Titanium Elementals? They were there to soften up Azure City and they did.

Death Knight? V had spent a huge amount of the battle supporting the other characters and limiting the damage the elementals could do, DK only came into the fight after everyone else was tired and unable to put up a good fight, even if V had learned Xykon's lesson early, she wouldn't have stood a chance against DK.

Pit Fiend lost mostly because of V, none of the Paladins or Durkon could actually cause enough damage for it to take notice with their melee attacks. In fact it didn't even noticed them attacking until V and D lowered it's saving throws. V didn't win a duel, she led the Paladins and Durkon to victory.

The Mother Dragon completely demolished V, the only reason V won was due to outside influence.

Even with the same outside influence V lost her duel with Xykon who admittedly did have a little help.

And there's Z, V realised she was outnumbered when YukYuk came in, but managed to take out two members of the LG by herself, using her abilities. This is the first time she has won a fight between evenly leveled/matched opponents while outnumbered, usually she's in a group that outnumbers them.
It's just as legitimate a victory as it would be if she beat Z using a fireball because YukYuk was one of Z's party members. In fact it is far more legitimate than using the lawyers, because YukYuk was one of Z's resources rather than a simple plot device.

SowZ
2011-09-02, 01:17 AM
I'm still going with "Pit Fiend dumb enough to bet big on a losing hand" and therefore "Pit Fiend not bright enough to maximize his spell-like abilities".

I mean, we never see V casting, say, Acid Arrow. That doesn't mean we should rule out the possibility of her having it as one of her spells without any proof to the opposite, and in this case that proof is the whole barred school - conjuration thing.

But if we saw a wizard end a meditation session, put away her spellbook, get attacked by, say, an adult dragon and all she cast were basic magic missiles we could assume she isn't 10th level.

Being stupid enough to use basic attacks when outnumbered by high level would be literally retarded. He could have instantly taken care of all of the Paladins with one turn. Blasphemy, Magic Circle Against Good, Mass Hold Monster... Whatever. And then to take care of the pesky Caster, one action. Use Power Word Stun, or some of the spells listed above. Not to mention the lack of undead minions/summoned devils. He would need an Int. a third of a Pit Fiends listed intelligence, I would think. It would be like giving a man a machine gun to fight a lion and he drops it to pick up a stick. While technically possible, I think it is more likely something Rich made up and based vaguely off of a Pit Fiend and resembling one so it likely has a similar, (if lower,) power level. As has been brought up, it is obviously not a standard Pit Fiend, anyway, unless it has had a Permanent Enlarge cast on it.

British Panda
2011-09-08, 07:39 PM
Is it just me or has this thread changed from "V's dueling victories" to "Was that bigass demon thing a pitfiend?"

Ashadar
2011-09-09, 02:47 PM
Yeah, I noticed there's a trend around here to derail threads with discussions that have next to no relation to the original topic.(the best example of this being the "snuggles the kitty" thread)

I'm glad this thread lasted as long as it did. =/

Kish
2011-09-09, 03:24 PM
Be glad no one's asked whether the bigass "demon" was morally justified in being a pit fiend.

denthor
2011-09-10, 01:06 PM
Tri gak was running a way that is a victory for XP Belkar just wanted a split for more. To bad Haley already had two sneak attacks on the creature so trigak became a three split thus all experince points went to party.

lio45
2011-09-10, 08:02 PM
V didn't win... V came close to winning, sure, but when your opponent semi-permanently removes you from the fight scene before the fight's over, you haven't won.

V's stuck in another plane... he's neutralized. Both wizards are now out of the fight. It's a tie.

VanBuren
2011-09-10, 08:14 PM
V didn't win... V came close to winning, sure, but when your opponent semi-permanently removes you from the fight scene before the fight's over, you haven't won.

V's stuck in another plane... he's neutralized. Both wizards are now out of the fight. It's a tie.

On the contrary. V achieved his stated goal, Z didn't. There's more than one way to achieve victory, after all.

martianmister
2011-09-10, 08:30 PM
If not for Qarr's "outside help" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html), V would be in the Demiplane of Extremely Painful Torture.

lio45
2011-09-10, 08:36 PM
On the contrary. V achieved his stated goal, Z didn't. There's more than one way to achieve victory, after all.

If my goal is to hit you, and your goal is to kill me, and we fight, and you completely beat me up while taking a couple minor hits, leaving me unconscious on the floor but still alive while you have to flee the scene at that point...

...who "won the fight"?

VanBuren
2011-09-10, 08:38 PM
If my goal is to hit you, and your goal is to kill me, and we fight, and you completely beat me up while taking a couple minor hits, leaving me unconscious on the floor but still alive while you have to flee the scene at that point...

...who "won the fight"?

Z's goal was to kill V and/or send him to the demiplane of torture. V's goal was to keep Z from stopping Elan and his going to Durkon.

Which of those goals were met?

lio45
2011-09-10, 08:46 PM
Z's goal was to kill V and/or send him to the demiplane of torture. V's goal was to keep Z from stopping Elan and his going to Durkon.

Which of those goals were met?

I believe the thread is about the fact that V apparently "won the duel". It's literally there in the title.

V met his goals, sure. V didn't win the duel.

Just like in my example above... You won the fight, but I met my goal while you didn't... Still can't say that *I* won. You did.

VanBuren
2011-09-10, 09:04 PM
I believe the thread is about the fact that V apparently "won the duel". It's literally there in the title.

V met his goals, sure. V didn't win the duel.

Just like in my example above... You won the fight, but I met my goal while you didn't... Still can't say that *I* won. You did.

I don't really agree that there's a meaningful distinction to be made here.

lio45
2011-09-10, 09:26 PM
I don't really agree that there's a meaningful distinction to be made here.

Well, I would say there is a difference between "achieving your goals" and "winning the duel".

See, let's imagine a slightly different version of that duel. Let's say that V keeps Z occupied for a while... the fight (that V isn't even winning, let's say he's just staying in the game) eventually attracts attention, and then Tarquin's guards arrive and arrest Z. And the kobold as well, why not.

V's goal is totally achieved (your quote below). You don't agree there's a distinction? Surely you can't say V won the duel in that case.


V's goal was to keep Z from stopping Elan and his going to Durkon.




So yep, V's achieved his goals this time, and that's far from the first time this happens in the strip... what's supposed to be "new" here is that V has won a duel by himself, and I agree with everyone so far who said they didn't think V "won the duel".

I'm sorry we're arguing over so little, I am sure we probably agree 90%+ with each other on this anyway.

VanBuren
2011-09-10, 09:30 PM
Well, I would say there is a difference between "achieving your goals" and "winning the duel".

See, let's imagine a slightly different version of that duel. Let's say that V keeps Z occupied for a while... the fight (that V isn't even winning, let's say he's just staying in the game) eventually attracts attention, and then Tarquin's guards arrive and arrest Z. And the kobold as well, why not.

V's goal is totally achieved (your quote below). You don't agree there's a distinction? Surely you can't say V won the duel in that case.






So yep, V's achieved his goals this time, and that's far from the first time this happens in the strip... what's supposed to be "new" here is that V has won a duel by himself, and I agree with everyone so far who said they didn't think V "won the duel".

I'm sorry we're arguing over so little, I am sure we probably agree 90%+ with each other on this anyway.

No, it's fine. I mean, we're splitting hairs but I do think we agree on a lot.

But I don't think there's a distinction in this case, because this was no formal duel. This was effectively a life-and-death battle on both sides and initiated on both sides as a result of some outside goal. For that matter, a formal duel has rules and structure, and the fact that both sides used a third party would throw that into question. You could make a case that V didn't violate the concept of a dual by dominating the kobold by virtue of the spell, but Z seemingly has no excuse for bringing a third party into the mix.

My contention is that, from the moment the kobold attacked, this ceased to be a duel in a meaningful sense, assuming it ever had been.

rewinn
2011-09-10, 10:21 PM
V met his goals, sure. V didn't win the duel.

Define "win".

V is alive, pretty healthy, and free. Somewhat inconvenienced by being on a gooey plane but that's all.

Z is in prison and very likely soon to become shorter by a head.

Who won?

Porthos
2011-09-10, 10:29 PM
Define "win".

V is alive, pretty healthy, and free. Somewhat inconvenienced by being on a gooey plane but that's all.

Z is in prison and very likely soon to become shorter by a head.

Who won?

This is under the catagory of "Lose the Battle, But Win the War." Or, if one prefers, a Pyrrhic Victory (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PyrrhicVictory).

V didn't win the duel. Z quite clearly defeated him by sending him away.

However, V "won" overall because he is (presumably - depending on just why the IFCC wanted him on that plane) free while Z "lost" overall because he will be rotting in prison.

But who won overall wasn't the thread question. The thread question was: Who won this throw down fight between the two casters. And, for the fight itself, Z clearly won.

Too bad said fight attracted the wrong sort of attention. :smalltongue: I would also point out that if V wasn't Plane Shifted away, he'd be rotting in prison as well. Funny thing how defeats can turn out to be victories when all is said and done. Again, presuming that being on the SEPoRD is a good thing for V. Which has yet to be determined.

Logalmier
2011-09-11, 12:58 AM
...Dominating an enemy doesn't count as getting help?

No it does not. That would be like saying that V's fireball beat Z, not V him/herself. It was V's magic, in the form of a dominate spell, that beat Z.

glowface
2011-09-11, 01:22 AM
But didn't Z get outside help to achieve 'semi-victory' over V? After all, that plane shift was not his own spell, and he did not fairly gain it at all, it was just thrust on him by Quarr, i.e. the Fiends' commission.

Kish
2011-09-11, 06:42 AM
The Plane Shift was certainly his own spell. Qarr gave him the coordinates to send Vaarsuvius to "the Demiplane of Extremely Painful Torture." So, insofar as Qarr played a role in the Plane Shift at all, he sabotaged Zz'dtri; if he hadn't given Zz'dtri those coordinates, Vaarsuvius would now be in the Abyss or the Negative Material Plane or whatever the nastiest dimension Zz'dtri knows is.

Ashadar
2011-09-11, 10:11 AM
I'm not really sure what to say about this whole plane shift thing. If Z was under the impression that he was sending V to a plane where she'd be tortured, then I don't really understand why she didn't do it in the first place. Then it would only take him one round to win, and he could use up all his spells to take down everyone else from the order.

Furthermore from what I've read around here, the plane shift is supposed to only work if the others agree to plane shift with the caster. That makes sense because if you were a wizard and you could do this to every non caster who can't plane shift out, you'd win every battle by default. Imagine a low level wizard with plane shift simply pushing epic level fighters into planes from the abyss. All you'd need would be a fly spell for the momentum, and a plane shift spell. You'd be unstoppable. Your only true enemies would be wizards that can cast plane shift.

The plane shift doesn't look like a win to me at all, not even a tie. It's just the only thing Rich could think of that would keep Z alive after a beating like that.(please observe that V is barely scratched) I understand the spell's effects have been altered by Rich to make it work in the story, but don't come telling me Z won because of it, because he didn't. That's just cheating..

Kish
2011-09-11, 11:02 AM
I'm not really sure what to say about this whole plane shift thing. If Z was under the impression that he was sending V to a plane where she'd be tortured, then I don't really understand why she didn't do it in the first place.

Because 1) he wanted Vaarsuvius dead, 2) he may have wanted the Plane Shift to escape the guards if necessary, and 3) targeting Vaarsuvius' Will save was not the best tactic available to him, even though it's the one that worked.


Furthermore from what I've read around here, the plane shift is supposed to only work if the others agree to plane shift with the caster.

No. Will save.

Imagine a low level wizard with plane shift

Oxymoron; Plane Shift is a seventh-level spell.

simply pushing epic level fighters into planes from the abyss.

There are a lot of ways a level 13+ wizard can one-shot an epic-level fighter who blows a Will save. Transporting them to the Abyss is one of the worst, since epic-level characters regularly go to the Abyss and fight their way out of it in campaigns.

Ashadar
2011-09-11, 11:22 AM
bla bla bla plane shift bla bla bla will save


So basically what you're saying here is that... Z got lucky? He wouldn't use this tactic first because there would be little chances for V to blow that will save, but he did it in the end as a desperate tactic because he was left with no other choice. And lucky for him, it worked. Well luck is a factor too I guess... I suppose we could call it a tie then. (Z took out V and Haley, while V took out Z and the kobold)

lio45
2011-09-11, 12:27 PM
No, it's fine. I mean, we're splitting hairs but I do think we agree on a lot.

But I don't think there's a distinction in this case, because this was no formal duel. This was effectively a life-and-death battle on both sides and initiated on both sides as a result of some outside goal. For that matter, a formal duel has rules and structure, and the fact that both sides used a third party would throw that into question. You could make a case that V didn't violate the concept of a dual by dominating the kobold by virtue of the spell, but Z seemingly has no excuse for bringing a third party into the mix.

My contention is that, from the moment the kobold attacked, this ceased to be a duel in a meaningful sense, assuming it ever had been.

Agreed, but then that undercuts the point of this thread. V's "achieving goals" is nothing new. Actually, V's probably got the best track record of all the party members for that...





Define "win".

V is alive, pretty healthy, and free. Somewhat inconvenienced by being on a gooey plane but that's all.

Z is in prison and very likely soon to become shorter by a head.

Who won?

Quick real world analogy, if I leave you totally healthy and totally free in the middle of the Amazonian forest, with no one else knowing you're there... are you only somewhat inconvenienced? Or rather screwed?

It's likely not that bad in V's case, sure, but the point is that being "healthy and free" isn't that important, when you think about it. For example, the analogy above -- I'd definitely prefer to be wounded and in jail (somewhere civilized).

I think the best way to settle the "who is the most inconvenienced of the two?" question is to ask the D&D experts on here...

How easy will it be for V's teammates to locate/retrieve V, and how easy will it be for Z's teammates to locate/retrieve/heal Z?

Might be actually easier to get Z out of jail (it seemed easy enough for the LG last time... Sabine as a Cliffport policeman did the trick) than to locate V and bring him back, no?

UrsielHauke
2011-09-12, 05:05 PM
...Dominating an enemy doesn't count as getting help?

Specifically in terms of a wizard's duel, the domination of someone other than the opposing party does count as outside help; the point of a wizard's duel is to determine who is the better spellcaster (Specifically, combat spellcaster) by means of a fight to first blood, unconsiousness, or death. However, in terms of a simple fight, Vaarsuvius legetimately won the encounter (See platitude: There's no such thing as fair in a fight). So, everybody's either right for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons. But in the end, I am not of the opinion that the specific rules of the standard wizard's duel mattered for any other reason than V's ego and Z's "revenge".

So, yeah. V is alive, conscious, and can probably find a way out of the Semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing (See also: Dismissal), just contracting with a willing outsider (someone on the plane can probably return hir), or waiting for the rest of the Order to find a way to get V back.

Alternatively, Z is trapped with in the prison of a tyrannical nation for an offense much more serious than failure to present papers, unconcious, hurt, probably unable to have any strings pulled due to Nale's standing within the kingdom, and likely within an anti-magic cell or similar to prevent escape via teleportation/etc.

In this situation, V obviously won. A legitimate wizard's duel could not be less relavent.

EDIT: Except for V's comment about "Undercutting my legitamate victory". But that's irrelevant save for V's ego.

AureliusDuPrix
2011-09-12, 05:11 PM
^ This. Beat me to it.

VanBuren
2011-09-12, 06:46 PM
Specifically in terms of a wizard's duel, the domination of someone other than the opposing party does count as outside help; the point of a wizard's duel is to determine who is the better spellcaster (Specifically, combat spellcaster) by means of a fight to first blood, unconsiousness, or death. However, in terms of a simple fight, Vaarsuvius legetimately won the encounter (See platitude: There's no such thing as fair in a fight). So, everybody's either right for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons. But in the end, I am not of the opinion that the specific rules of the standard wizard's duel mattered for any other reason than V's ego and Z's "revenge".

So, yeah. V is alive, conscious, and can probably find a way out of the Semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing (See also: Dismissal), just contracting with a willing outsider (someone on the plane can probably return hir), or waiting for the rest of the Order to find a way to get V back.

Alternatively, Z is trapped with in the prison of a tyrannical nation for an offense much more serious than failure to present papers, unconcious, hurt, probably unable to have any strings pulled due to Nale's standing within the kingdom, and likely within an anti-magic cell or similar to prevent escape via teleportation/etc.

In this situation, V obviously won. A legitimate wizard's duel could not be less relavent.

EDIT: Except for V's comment about "Undercutting my legitamate victory". But that's irrelevant save for V's ego.

Problem: V won even by strict dueling standards. The first person to invoke outside help was Z, when he had the kobold shoot V in the back. Z was the first to invoke outside help, so if that undermines V, then it undermines Z as well. Which would have meant that Z forfeited any legitimate claim to victory when he did so.

lio45
2011-09-12, 07:16 PM
Problem: V won even by strict dueling standards. The first person to invoke outside help was Z, when he had the kobold shoot V in the back. Z was the first to invoke outside help, so if that undermines V, then it undermines Z as well. Which would have meant that Z forfeited any legitimate claim to victory when he did so.

I would think that under "strict dueling standards", if your opponent manages to successfully semi-permanently remove you from the fight scene while the fight is still going on, you haven't won. :-P

But yeah, you're right in saying that the reason this wasn't actually a duel is because Z had help, so V did neutralize TWO enemies at the price of being planeshifted.

It's a very good achievement for V (who's already been very efficient anyway). I don't think anyone will disagree with that.

zimmerwald1915
2011-09-13, 03:09 PM
(who's already been very efficient anyway)
Since when? V puts great store by efficiency, but isn't particularly good at it.

lio45
2011-09-13, 09:29 PM
Since when? V puts great store by efficiency, but isn't particularly good at it.

Well, in chronological order as much as possible (I'm going from memory), and I may forget some. I seriously don't think anyone else (among the PCs) has done so much.

- Puts a bunch of goblins to sleep (inadvertently, I admit)
- Defeats chimera
- Gets rid of Zzd'tri
- Saves whole party (Feather Fall while in lizardy form)
- Zaps young black dragon
- Downs Nale (not confirmed, but likely) (when Elan/Nale both insist they're Elan)
- Vanquishes the Ti elementals
- Helps hold the breach (enlarged soldiers)
- Turns Qarr's gigantic friend to stone
- Eliminates Kubota (a persistent menace for Hinjo)
- Teleports the whole Azurite fleet to a great location
- Saves O'Chul (inadvertently) (when V attacks Xykon)
- Dominates the Dune worm (averts possible fight + gives the party a useful ride)
- Knocks Z unconscious
- Removes the kobold from the fight

Steward
2011-09-13, 09:35 PM
I think V is as efficient as anyone in a Dungeons and Dragons spoof cartoon can be. None of the characters are ever going to reach the levels of optimization and preparation as a gamer and they're never going to be able to come up with plans in the spur of the moment that are as clever as a plan developed by someone with access to dozens of books and an Internet SRD and all the time in the world. V does pretty well for his/herself considering the nature of the strip and the fact that s/he can't plan for every eventuality in advance.

SowZ
2011-09-13, 09:40 PM
I believe the thread is about the fact that V apparently "won the duel". It's literally there in the title.

V met his goals, sure. V didn't win the duel.

Just like in my example above... You won the fight, but I met my goal while you didn't... Still can't say that *I* won. You did.

Just looking at it as a duel, not a goal orientated thing, at the end Z was knocked out, (and imprisoned,) and V was in a safe but inconvenient location. I'd say V came out on top however you look at it.


I think V is as efficient as anyone in a Dungeons and Dragons spoof cartoon can be. None of the characters are ever going to reach the levels of optimization and preparation as a gamer and they're never going to be able to come up with plans in the spur of the moment that are as clever as a plan developed by someone with access to dozens of books and an Internet SRD and all the time in the world. V does pretty well for his/herself considering the nature of the strip and the fact that s/he can't plan for every eventuality in advance.

Yeah, saying, "V totally should have taken this feat!" assumes she is being built with metagaming. Since V has no player, she can't metagame.

lio45
2011-09-13, 10:04 PM
Just looking at it as a duel, not a goal orientated thing, at the end Z was knocked out, (and imprisoned,) and V was in a safe but inconvenient location. I'd say V came out on top however you look at it.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm no D&D expert, so I can't tell how inconvenient being stuck on that ranch dressing plane actually is.

The LG has already engineered at least one jailbreak, and we know that PCs of Order level can break into the Empire's jail reasonably easily (the LG, as recurring villains, should always be roughly the same level as the protagonists). Being in prison doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in the OotSverse.

I asked a few posts ago if the experts would be so kind as to chime in on how hard/easy it is to locate V and bring him back... V's relative "victory" hinges on that IMO, because from my current POV, Z might be even less "inconvenienced" than V at the moment...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11825394&postcount=107

SowZ
2011-09-13, 11:50 PM
Maybe, maybe not. I'm no D&D expert, so I can't tell how inconvenient being stuck on that ranch dressing plane actually is.

The LG has already engineered at least one jailbreak, and we know that PCs of Order level can break into the Empire's jail reasonably easily (the LG, as recurring villains, should always be roughly the same level as the protagonists). Being in prison doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in the OotSverse.

I asked a few posts ago if the experts would be so kind as to chime in on how hard/easy it is to locate V and bring him back... V's relative "victory" hinges on that IMO, because from my current POV, Z might be even less "inconvenienced" than V at the moment...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11825394&postcount=107

By that logic, whoever 'escapes' first will be the victor of the duel. It is a tie if they escape at relatively the same time.

zimmerwald1915
2011-09-14, 04:47 AM
How easy will it be for V's teammates to locate/retrieve V, and how easy will it be for Z's teammates to locate/retrieve/heal Z?
This depends greatly on the outcome of the various fights, and in particuar which members of both teams are neutralized by the end. However, for purposes of this question, let us assume that 1) the LG's sixth member, which we do not know exists, did not engage Durkon 2) Sabine and Nale are unable to track/catch up with Elan, at least before he reaches Durkon and 3) Roy and Thog bring each other to mutual exhaustion, and Roy is returned to the cell with Ian and Geoff while Thog is locked back up in his chains. To clarify assumption 2, this would mean that either they back off for the time being in order to strike again later, or that they are driven off by Durkon and Elan (Durkon is quite powerful enough to do this, though his spell selection for the day might not be best tailored to fighting demons). Essentially, if these assumptions are followed, things remain mostly as they are now and both groups are able to devote their remaining resources to finding/retrieving their respective wizards.

Let us then tally the Order's and Guild's resources. Actually, let us first state what resources are unavailable to them. Of the Guild, Thog, Yukyuk, and Z are neutralized. Of the Order, Roy, Haley, and V are neutralized. This leaves the Order with a level-drained Elan, an unscathed Durkon, a Belkar whose whereabouts are unknown but whose orders are to "find [the Linear Guild] and kick their asses", and Blackwing and Mister Scruffy. The Guild is left with Nale, Sabine, Qarr (who is currently in Hell and presumably in contact with at least Lee), Sir Scraggly (assuming he got out of the arena), and a potential other member with unknown abilties who we can thus discount entirely.

Let us then consider the nature of V's and Z's predicaments. None of the Order, and none of the Guild except Qarr, know where V is in a cosmological sense, and none know where she is, geographically, on the SEPoRD. The only reasonable place that we know of for the Empire to hold Z, however, is in the anti-magic zone of the Bleedingham Correctional Facility, which is implied to contain multiple cell blocks. It is possible that Z could be imprisoned in cell block G with Ian and Roy, but it is not necessarily going to be the case. Probability, however, is known to have a weakness for Drama's chams, and Z might very well end up in cell block G. Let us assume he does, particularly since it's the only cell block that's been established visually. The Guild, having infiltrated the Empire for months, likely knows how to enter the prison and the details of some of the defenses.

Finally, how do the resources of each team stack up against the obstacles in the way of finding and retrieving their respective wizards?

For the Order, the only person capable of locating V is Durkon. This he could actually do with relative ease, by means of the Commune spell, which we know he prepares from the encounter with Girard's trap in the desert, or by repeated castings of Sending, which we know he has in the past prepared in bulk. Once V's location is known, Durkon is again the only person capable of retrieving her, with the most direct method being two castings of Plane Shift. He would probably have to wait until the following day to do this, since we have never seen him prepare Plane Shift. Alternatively, he might be able to beg or buy two scrolls off Malack. V could also potentially contact Durkon by means of a Sending after she has had time to rest and regain spells; we know V put a high priority on contacting Durkon from her parting dialogue to Elan, and that she can prepare Sending. Also potentially on the table once V is able to regain spells is Dismissal: V could potentially cast it on herself or scribe a scroll to give to a SEPoRD denizen that is also a caster. If V is unable to do this, she could Dismiss Yukyuk, having first promised him suitable payment (or construing "I'm sending you back to our home plane" as suitable payment), and have him contact and apprise Durkon of her situation. The obstacles in the way of V returning to the Material Plane can be surmounted by either Durkon or V if they are allowed to work uninterrupted until the next in-comic day.

We have already seen Haley bypass the obstacles that would be protecting Z with relative ease. Sabine is naturally equipped, as a succubus, to do the same thing, perhaps by assuming the shape of a guard and bringing Nale in as a "prisoner", or by Charming - or letting Nale Charm if she wants to - the guards. Once inside, security is relatively light, at least as far as we've been shown. Sabine's natural abilities and Nale's magic would be neutralized by the antimagic field protecting the cells, but Sabine has Rogue class levels and it is not unreasonable to expect her to be able to pick the lock on the door. Neither she nor Haley - at least without a certain +2 circumstance bonus - was able to do so in Azure City's antimagic cells, but they are both higher level now and Bleedingham's locks are probably easier to pick, as evidenced by Belkar's and Ian's escapades with locks. Once inside, assuming Z is being held in cell block G, Nale and Sabine would have to evade or neutralize Roy, and perhaps Ian and Geoff if Roy can convince them to oppose whatever this Spawn of Tarquin is pulling (shouldn't be that hard). However, Roy should be, remembering our assumptions, exhausted from his fight with Thog, and Ian and Geoff probably would not be able to do much more than inconvenience Sabine, though they could potentially pose a threat to Nale. Once outside the antimagic field, Nale, Sabine, and Z - with whatever magic he has left - should be able to escape fairly easily and return to their underground state. Putting this plan into action takes even less time than locating and retrieving V from the SEPoRD, since it does not depend on spell preparation.

Conclusion: it is possible for both the Order and Guild, with the resources that have not been seen to have been neutralized in the comic, to locate and retrieve their respective wizards within a day, with minimal fuss.

Gandariel
2011-09-14, 06:08 AM
From z's point of view, they're even: he' ko and V is in the demiplane of torture

from V's point of view, she won, although slightly inconvenienced.
sure, being in another plane is more than slightly inconvenienced, but if that imp sent V there he surely has a way for V to get back.

probably not in time to help with the current fight, though.

SowZ
2011-09-14, 02:50 PM
From z's point of view, they're even: he' ko and V is in the demiplane of torture

from V's point of view, she won, although slightly inconvenienced.
sure, being in another plane is more than slightly inconvenienced, but if that imp sent V there he surely has a way for V to get back.

probably not in time to help with the current fight, though.

Z wanted to get V out of the picture. That was Zs goal. He will completely fail that goal since I am sure V will escape very soon. Z will have accomplished nothing and V will have completed her goal. If Z won from his perspective, it is only because Z thinks V is in a different plane. Z would be wrong.