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Gorfang113
2011-08-24, 12:20 PM
Let say an Blackguard is killed and his soul goes straight to hell. His soul is used to create a lemure. Eventually this lemure manages to go all the way to say, kyton status. What would happen if someone then tried true ressurection on the Blackguard? Would it just fail? Would the kyton change back to the Blackguard's soul and be ressurected? Or would the kyton die as the blackguard was ressurected. And if he was ressurected, would he remember anything of his time as a devil?

Flickerdart
2011-08-24, 12:28 PM
The resurrection would fail, I believe. Something about this in one of the Fiendish Codices.

Xtomjames
2011-08-24, 12:30 PM
Nothing actually, once the soul becomes a unique creature (such as the Kyton which is an Outsider) resurrection spells including True Resurrection will not work on it. Only a Wish or Miracle could potentially bring it back to life as a Blackguard. A wish or miracle would alter the state or reality and thus the Kyton would cease to exist (presuming that its SR and Will save failed) and it would return to the state it was in as a Blackguard, prior to death. Memory of what had happened would depend on the wording of the wish.

darksolitaire
2011-08-24, 12:35 PM
True Resurrection works, and we have Black Guard, and nothing happens to kython.

Edit: I'm assuming this, because I haven't read anything that would cause me to assume anything else. There are no rules for not being able to be true resurrected in correct conditions, indeed, if there were, the spell would be pointless. There are also no rules for outsiders popping when said souls are resurrected.

bigstipidfighte
2011-08-24, 12:56 PM
Nothing is supposed to become a devil that fast, and True Ressurection is one of the reasons.

vampire2948
2011-08-24, 01:16 PM
Nothing is supposed to become a devil that fast, and True Ressurection is one of the reasons.

That fast...? Within 200 years for 20th level caster? Seems an acceptable timeframe to me - Especially for a blackguard. Also seems like a wish to allow you to resurrect someone who'd been dead for any length of time isn't too far out of the limits of Wish.

bigstipidfighte
2011-08-24, 01:22 PM
That fast...? Within 200 years for 20th level caster?
Indeed.

I didn't in any way intend to "win" the thread with that comment, just pointing it out. In the spirit of the "what if" scenario, I'll submit that, in my opinion only, not backed by any rules, the True Ressurection would fail. The Blackguard isn't dead anymore, he's been transformed into a (very much alive) devil.

HappyBlanket
2011-08-24, 01:47 PM
How does someone even turn into a devil, anyway? Just out of curiosity from someone not versed in d&d cosmology/zoology. I assumed that devils and demons just spawned from their respective planes from the plane itself, not from deceased souls.

Also, if someone dies, and is sent to the respective aligned plane, could they be Plane Shifted back to the Material Plane as a pseudo resurrection? And if they could, would that mean two physical bodies for the same person? :smallconfused: Or is there a kind of template for the spirit?

bigstipidfighte
2011-08-24, 02:01 PM
I'll let someone more knowledgable answer the first part of your question so i don't mess anything up, but as for plane shifting a dead person back to the prime materiel:

When a perosn dies and is sent to the appropriate plane, they become something called a petitioner. They do have stats(I believe in Manual of the Planes, but I could be wrong) In any event they lose pretty much all of the abilities and knowledge they had in life, so while it might be possible to bring them back to the materel plane, they wouldn't be useful as party members.

Xtomjames
2011-08-24, 02:29 PM
Well, this is really dependent on the DM. True Resurrection can be used to restore an Outsider (I made a mistake in the earlier post), however, I would still say once the soul has changed into a new creature and being, the old form is completely lost and thus True Rez won't work.

More importantly True Rez is limited to 10 years/caster level, that has a maximum of 200 years for a pre-epic character (post epic is variable). Since True Rez acts like Raise Dead, SR applies, but there is no saving throw.

Regardless this entry makes something clear "You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subjectís soul must be free and willing to return (see Bringing Back the Dead, page 171)."

If the soul has moved on and become a different creature (like a Kython) then the soul isn't Free to be brought back to life, even if it were willing to do so.

darksolitaire
2011-08-24, 03:12 PM
Well, this is really dependent on the DM. True Resurrection can be used to restore an Outsider (I made a mistake in the earlier post), however, I would still say once the soul has changed into a new creature and being, the old form is completely lost and thus True Rez won't work.


Very reasonable assumption, but do rulings exist for the matter?



Regardless this entry makes something clear "You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subjectís soul must be free and willing to return (see Bringing Back the Dead, page 171)."


I can imagine that this part refers to certain spell in core, Trap the Soul. Page 171 explains nothing else about soul being free or not.



If the soul has moved on and become a different creature (like a Kython) then the soul isn't Free to be brought back to life, even if it were willing to do so.

This rule might exist, I simply do not know it.

I'll turn this other way around just for practice. True Resurrection can bring back one who has been dead for 200 years. Because the spell has such a timer, then the soul must be able to exist for such a time, or the timer would be pointless.

Normally I hate that kind of deduction, but the premise (true resurrection can bring back dead up to 200 years after their death) and result (True Resurrection works) seem reasonable with my current knowledge.

Consider all of the above as pondering.