Is Everyone having a Bully Day?! [Base Class]

[Tanuki Tales]

Prize Fighter


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u98/The_Logos/Ladd-1.jpg

”C'mon, put up ya dukes! You think you're Pete Hammond? Haha, more like Jack Dempsey! Or more like Jack Johnson! You got no moxie! You got no technique! ...do you even know any of these boxers I'm talkin' about? Any red-blooded American would have to know what I'm talking about, RIGHT!? You don't? Oh, you don't!? I'll make you pay for not knowin' them! Of course, even if you did know 'em, you'd still! Have! To! PAAAAAAY!”

-Ladd Russo, Baccano!.

Born from the mean streets of a sprawling urban behemoth, groomed from the best disciples of an old hand or just some schmuck with innate skill, they all excel at the "sweet science". But it goes deeper than that; they connect to something grand and primal, unlocking the mysteries of what is more commonly known as "blade magic" as they pound some poor fool into patty with their bare hands. A Prize Fighter rarely even cares that they've unlocked this strange power in themselves, more interested in the violent and exhilarating lives that they lead.

Prize Fighters are brutal grand standers, visceral performance artists or just a big lunk who's trying to get by in life. They may not have the primal fury of a Barbarian, the tactical training of a Fighter or the rigorous discipline of the Monk, but they do have the grit and the chops to cut out in any outfit that any other warrior gets into. Though Prize Fighters are normally athletes confined to cities it's not unheard of for them to give up (or be tossed out of) the fighting circles they practice in to explore the world at large and bring the "sweet science" to play on a much larger stage than ever before.

Role: The Prize Fighter fits similar roles to the Barbarian, Fighter and Monk. They are meant to be in the front lines of combat, taking harm and attention away from their compatriots while laying down the hurt on those who would be their enemies.

Alignment: Any except True Neutral.

Hit Dice: d8

Class skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Local), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Slight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str)
Skills: 6+Intelligence Modifier per level



{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fortitude Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Rapid Fire Fisticuffs Attack Bonus|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known|
Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|
-1/-1|
5|
3|
1|
Dukes, Fast Movement, Good Right Hook (+1d4), Rapid Fire Fisticuffs

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|
+0/+0|
5|
3|
2|
AC Bonus, Bonus Feat, Evasion

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1/+1|
6|
3|
2|
Punch Drunk, Roll with the Punches

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+2/+2|
6|
4|
2|
Find the Sweet Spot, Good Right Hook (+2d4), Moxie (Magic)

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+3/+3|
7|
4|
3|
Bonus feat, Let's Dance +1, Put 'em up!

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+4/+4/-1|
7|
4|
3|
Get in his face, Physically fit

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5/+5/+0|
8|
4|
3|
Ring Tyrant, Second Wind

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6/+6/+1/+1|
8|
4|
3|
Bonus Feat, No Pain, No Gain

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+7/+7/+2/+2|
9|
4|
4|
Good Right Hook (+3d4), Improved Evasion

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+8/+8/+3/+3|
9|
5|
4|
Bonus feat, Let's Dance +2 Moxie (Alignment)

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+9/+9/+4/+4/-1|
10|
5|
4|
Hold your Liquor, Uncanny Dodge

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|
+10/+10/+5/+5/+0|
10|
5|
4|
Exploit the Blindspot

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|
+11/+11/+6/+6/+1|
11|
5|
4|
Good Right Hook (+4d4), Iron Soul

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|
+12/+12/+7/+7/+2|
11|
6|
5|
Bonus feat, Haymaker

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|
+13/+13/+8/+8/+3|
11|
6|
5|
Let's Dance +3, Uppercut Finish

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|
+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/-1|
12|
6|
5|
Bonus Feat, Moxie (Material)

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|
+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+0|
12|
6|
5|
Good Right Hook (+5d4), Perfect Specimen

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|
+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+1|
13|
6|
5|
Bonus feat, Fancy Footwork

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|
+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+2|
13|
6|
5|
Intimidating Legend

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+11|
+11|
+6|
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3|
14|
7|
6|
Let's Dance +4, Pugilist of Myth
[/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Prize Fighters are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor.

Maneuvers: Prize Fighter's begin their career with knowledge of five martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to them are Black Heron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100874), Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Life's Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10181187&postcount=14), and Stone Dragon.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Prize Fighter level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, he loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, as long as he observe their restriction on the highest-level maneuvers they know; he need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level.

He can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

Maneuvers Readied: A Prize Fighter can ready three of his five maneuvers known at 1st level, and as he advances in level and learn more maneuvers, he is able to ready more, but he must still choose which maneuvers to ready. He readies his maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes. The maneuvers he chooses remain readied until he decides to meditate again and change them. He need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready his maneuvers; any time he spends 5 minutes exercising, he can change his readied maneuvers.

He can recover an expended maneuver with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with his weapon). He cannot initiate a maneuver or change his stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but he can remain in a stance in which he began his turn.

Stances Known: A Prize Fighter begins play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to him. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, he can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and he does not have to ready them. All the stances he knows are available to him at all times, and he can change the stance he currently is using as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. Unlike with maneuvers, he cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one he already knows.

Dukes: At 1st level, a Prize Fighter gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A Prize Fighter's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a Prize Fighter may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a Prize Fighter striking unarmed. A Prize Fighter may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Usually a Prize Fighter's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A Prize Fighter's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.


{table=head]Level|Small Unarmed Damage|Medium Unarmed Damage|Large Unarmed Damage


1st-3rd|
1d4|
1d6|
1d8|


4th-7th|
1d6|
1d8|
2d6|


8th-11th|
1d8|
1d10|
2d8|


12th-15th|
1d10|
2d6|
3d6|


16th-19th|
2d6|
2d8|
3d8|


20th-23rd|
2d8|
2d10|
4d8|


24th-27th|
2d10|
3d8|
6d8|


28th-31st|
3d8|
4d8|
8d8|


32nd-35th|
4d8|
6d8|
12d8|


36th-41st|
6d8|
8d8|
11d10|[/table]

Fast Movement (Ex): A Prize Fighter’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the Prize Fighter’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the Prize Fighter's land speed.

Good Right Hook (Ex): A Prize Fighter relies on on their footwork and timing to really lay the hurt on their foes. He deals an extra 1d4 points of damage on all attacks he makes during any round that he moves at least 5 feet [A 5 foot step does not count for this purpose]. The extra damage only applies to attacks taken during the Prize Fighter's turn.

The extra damage only applies against creatures that the Prize Fighter can see or discern and are not immune to critical hits or precision damage.

This class feature counts as the Skirmish class feature for any ability, feat or effect that requires or affects the Skirmish class feature. This ability does not allow a Prize Fighter to qualify for Prestige classes that require the Skirmish class feature.

Rapid Fire Fisticuffs (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a Prize Fighter can make a Rapid Fire Fisticuffs as a standard action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the Prize Fighter does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A Prize Fighter applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with Rapid Fire Fisticuffs, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A Prize Fighter may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a Rapid Fire Fisticuffs and may substitute one of the unarmed attacks to initiate a maneuver. A Prize Fighter cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike as part of a Rapid Fire Fisticuffs. A Prize Fighter with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a Rapid Fire Fisticuffs, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his Rapid Fire Fisticuffs attacks.

AC Bonus (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Prize Fighter receives their Wisdom modifier (if any) as a bonus to their Armor Class, so long as the Prize Fighter is wearing no armor or light armor, are unencumbered and do not use a shield.

Bonus Feat: At 2nd, 5th, 8th, 10th, 14th, 16th, 18th a Prize Fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat feats, sometimes also called "fighter bonus feats" or those listed as Classy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-188796.html) feats.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a Prize Fighter can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a Prize Fighter makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a Prize Fighter is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Prize Fighter does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Punch Drunk (Ex): A Prize Fighter has taken enough blows to the head that their brains become slightly addled, making them more resilient to attacks of the mind. A Prize Fighter gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells and effects.

Roll with the Punches (Ex): A Prize Fighter's body is a patchwork of healed bruises, scar tissue and knitted bones, making them designed to take further punishment. A Prize Fighter gains Damage Reduction that can not be bypassed equal to half their total levels in this class (minimum 1).

Find the Sweet Spot (Ex): Prize Fighter's excel at finding the weakest, softest portions of an enemy's body and hammering home. A Prize Fighter receives their Wisdom modifier (if any) as a bonus to damage rolls with their unarmed strikes.

Moxie (Su): At 4th level, a Prize Fighter's guts, experience, style and force of will begin to coalesce into a veritable supernatural way. A Prize Fighter has an amount of Moxie points equal to one quarter his levels in this class + his Wisdom Modifier (if any). As long as he has at least 1 Moxie point left his unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons. At tenth level, his unarmed strikes are treated as one portion of his alignment (Chaotic, Evil, Good or Lawful). At sixteenth level, his unarmed strikes are treated as one material of his choice.

A Prize Fighter may change what alignment or material his unarmed strikes count as by spending 1 Moxie point for each.

By spending 1 Moxie point, a Prize Fighter can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a Rapid Fire Fisticuffs attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a Prize Fighter can spend 1 point to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume Moxie points as he gains levels.

A Prize Fighter regains all spent Moxie points by resting for 8 hours (which need not be consecutive) and regains 1 Moxie point by accomplishing one of the following:

Scoring a critical hit with an Unarmed Strike.
Landing a killing blow with an Unarmed Strike.
By performing an act or deed that requires "real Moxie kid!". [This is generally a "ballsy" or bold accomplishment that would seem against common sense or basic logic. Whether an action counts is ultimately up to the DM's discretion]

Let's Dance (Ex): A Prize Fighter gains a +1 bonus to initiative checks. This bonus increases by 1 at 10th, 15th and 20th level.

Put 'em up! (Ex): A Prize Fighter excels at aggravating and provoking opponents.

As a move action, a Prize Fighter can goad an opponent that has line of sight to him, can hear him, and has an Intelligence of 3 or higher. (The goad is a mind-affecting ability.) When the goaded opponent starts its next turn, if it threatens him and has line of sight to him, it must make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 his Prize Fighter level + his Wisdom modifier). If the opponent fails its save, the Prize Fighter is the only creature it can make melee or ranged attacks against during this turn. (If it kills him, knocks him unconscious, loses sight of him, or otherwise is unable to make attacks against him, it may make any remaining attacks against other foes, as normal.) This ability also applies to the casting of spells, movement and any other action the creature may perform. For the duration of this effect the creature can only focus solely on the Prize Fighter.

Get in his face (Ex): A seasoned Prize Fighter quickly learns to never allow any gaps between him and an opponent. As a swift action a Prize Fighter may designate one enemy they have line of sight to and move half their total speed towards the designated foe. This movement must be in a straight line and can not allow the Prize Fighter to pass through or around difficult terrain, water that is more than waist deep or cover.

Using this ability costs 1 Moxie point.

Physically Fit (Ex): A Prize Fighter is so well trained that they're at the peak of health. A Prize Fighter gains immunity to all diseases, including those which are supernatural or magical in origin.

Ring Tyrant (Ex): The aura that a Prize Fighter gives off in the thick of a match is so potent that it imposes itself on others. The Prize Fighter gains the Frightful Presence ability with a range of 30 feet and a save DC of 10+ 1/2 his Prize Fighter level + his Wisdom modifier. The effects of this ability lasts for 5d6 rounds.

Second Wind (Su): A Prize Fighter's endurance is nearly herculean. When combined with their supernatural ego they can keep on fighting long after they should have gone down.

A Prize Fighter can heal an amount of hit points per day equal to his Prize Fighter level times his Wisdom modifier (minimum x1). This healing can be broken up into any amount and takes a standard action to utilize.

By spending 5 Moxie points the Prize Fighter replenishes the amount healed by this ability back to full.

No Pain, No Gain (Ex): A Prize Fighter has been accustomed to surging through varying kinds of mortal danger, learning from his experience. A Prize Fighter gains a +2 bonus on saving throws as long as he has at least 1 Moxie Point.

Improved Evasion (Ex): With more experience, a Prize Fighter's evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Prize Fighter does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Hold your Liquor (Ex): Prize Fighters tend to have a good relationship with "the sauce" and it enures and strengthens their body. A Prize Fighter is immune to all poisons and gains 5 temporary hit points (to a maximum of their Prize Fighter level) for every point of ability damage they would have taken. These hit points last for one hour.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Prize Fighter gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if immobilized. A Prize Fighter with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.

If a Prize Fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Exploit the Blindspot (Su): A Prize Fighter's Moxie has started to become so potent that the Prize Fighter can bend space to set up an opponent for a more devastating blow. A Prize Fighter uses an effect similar to the spell Dimension Door but appears directly behind an opponent who is within range of the spell's effect. Afterwards the Prize Fighter may make a single attack (he may not initiate a maneuver or use a Rapid Fire Fisticuffs and this ability does not trigger his Good Right Hook) on that opponent. A Prize Fighter's caster level for this ability is equal to his Prize Fighter level.

Using this ability costs 2 Moxie points.

Iron Soul (Ex): The grit in the Prize Fighter's soul has condensed and been tempered overtime, making them difficult to ensorcell. A Prize Fighter gains Spell Resistance equal to 11 + his Prize Fighter level.

Haymaker (Ex): A veteran Prize Fighter is capable of throwing devastating blows that turn the tide of battles. A Prize Fighter must declare they are making a Haymaker and then may roll one attack roll against an opponent. If the attack hits, the target must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10+1/2 the Prize Fighter's level + his Wisdom modifier) or be pushed back 10 feet (taking damage if colliding with a solid surface), knocked prone and stunned for 1 round. Even if they make the save they are still pushed back and knocked prone.

Using this ability costs 2 Moxie points.

Uppercut Finish (Ex): With honed speed and incredible strength a Prize Fighter is capable of delivering a fatal, final blow to their foe. A Prize Fighter must declare they are making an Uppercut Finish and then may make one attack roll against an opponent. If the attack hits, the target must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10+1/2 the Prize Fighter's level+ his Wisdom modifier) or be killed instantly. If they succeed on the save they still take 3d6 damage and are stunned for 1 round in addition to the damage from the attack.

Using this ability costs 4 Moxie Points. A Prize Fighter does not regain Moxie points by use of this ability.

Perfect Specimen (Ex): A Prize Fighter no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Age bonuses still accrue, and the Prize Fighter still dies of old age when his time is up.

Fancy Footwork (Ex): A Prize Fighter has long perfected the art of moving deftly around the ring, coming out on top and staying on tempo no matter what comes his way. A Prize Fighter is treated as if constantly under an effect that replicates the Freedom of Movement spell. A Prize Fighter loses this benefit when wearing heavier than medium armor or carrying a medium load or heavier.

Intimidating Legend (Su): A Prize Fighter's battle aura has developed so great a potency that it can cow those around him. A Prize Fighter can activate an effect that mimics the Overwhelming Presence spell for 1 minute. The Prize Fighter's caster level for this ability is equal to his Prize Fighter level. This ability affects even those who are normally immune to mind-affecting effects.

Using this ability costs 3 Moxie points.

Pugilist of Myth: The Prize Fighter's Moxie has reached a point where it meltdown, bringing an irrevocable change in the Prize Fighter. The Prize Fighter goes through the following changes:
The Prize Fighter's type changes to Outsider (Native).
The Prize Fighter's Roll with the Punches class feature grants Damage Reduction equal to his total levels in this class.
The Prize Fighter's Moxie points are now equal to half his Prize Fighter level + his Wisdom Modifier (if any).

Change Log 8/27/11 - Changed No Pain, No Gain so that it ceases giving a bonus if the Prize Fighter has no Moxie left.
8/27/11 - Rules text addendum added to Uppercut Finish so that it does not refund Moxie on use.
Maneuvers known cut down by 3 at each level and Maneuvers readied lowered by 1.
Added in forgotten clarification on regaining Moxie other than through rest.
Maneuver known progression changed to match Crusader and Maneuvers readied change to match Warblade.
8/28/11 - The dice damage for Good Right Hook was increased from being d3 to d4.
Hit dice downgraded from d10 to d8 and all abilities that were keyed off Charisma are now keyed off Wisdom.
Second Wind from mimicking the Monk's Wholeness of Body to being a more useful ability.
Bonus feats expanded to include "Classy" feats.
8/29/11 - Reduced Moxie points from half class and full class to quarter class and half class respectively.

Comments

-Well, here's my take on a martial initiator class based on the Monk. Hopefully I've avoided the fatal pit falls of the Monk Class in both 3.5 and Pathfinder and made a good, fun class to play. I know this class doesn't exactly address the lack of easily enchantable weapons or the lack of flying, but I was following my vision (and technically Exploit the Blindspot lets you attack Flying foes and Intimidating Legend can potentially ground flying foes) of what this class should be.

- This class was made under the pretense that you ignore the fluff for the disciplines it has access to and just treat them as different fighting techniques open to the Prize Fighter to use. So keep that in mind please.

That's all for now.

[Tanuki Tales]

Reserved for additions.

[Tanuki Tales]

It just occurred to me as a possibility; um, the thread is open for posting and all. I was only reserving the one post.

[Merk]

My impression is that it's a tad OP. It's got roughly the same maneuver progression as the Swordsage, but better HD and BAB and the recovery mechanic of a Warblade. It nearly gets a PsyWar's bonus feat progression, and on top of that, it has a boatload of helpful class features (including better DR than a barbarian and constant freedom of movement). It looks clearly more powerful than a Swordsage, and probably more powerful than a Warblade.

Here are my suggestions on what to cut:

Evasion can be delayed (as with Swordsage)
Let's Dance
Eliminate or slow the bonus feats
Roll with the Punches (this sort of thing I feel is better done with maneuvers)


On another note, Haymaker doesn't specify how much collision damage does.

As an aside, I really like the flavor of this class. That's done very well.

[Eldest]

Quick note: would a Uppercut Finish, if it kills, trigger regaining all your moxie?

[Tanuki Tales]

My impression is that it's a tad OP. It's got roughly the same maneuver progression as the Swordsage, but better HD and BAB and the recovery mechanic of a Warblade. It nearly gets a PsyWar's bonus feat progression, and on top of that, it has a boatload of helpful class features (including better DR than a barbarian and constant freedom of movement). It looks clearly more powerful than a Swordsage, and probably more powerful than a Warblade.

Here are my suggestions on what to cut:

Evasion can be delayed (as with Swordsage)
Let's Dance
Eliminate or slow the bonus feats
Roll with the Punches (this sort of thing I feel is better done with maneuvers)


On another note, Haymaker doesn't specify how much collision damage does.

As an aside, I really like the flavor of this class. That's done very well.

Actually, it only has a part of the Warblade recovery mechanic. While yes, it can recover as a swift action, it only recovers one maneuver, not all of them. I may consider changing that to a full-round action though.
It's DR is actually slightly worse (until 20th level) than the DR that Pathfinder's Invulnerable Rager receives. They get the same DR progression but its value doubles against nonlethal damage. Besides, as far as I'm aware a lot of players consider the DR the Barbarian normally gets pitiful if not useless.
It's class features being called "helpful" isn't really any trouble in my eyes since the frame work of this class was the Monk. Looks like I dodged that pit fall. :smallbiggrin:
It get's the same bonus feats as the PsyWar? Huh. Didn't know that. Again, not seeing too large a beef there, but I'll look into it.
Yes, and? I don't see why being stronger than the Swordsage or Warblade is a problem. It's not like I was building a contemporary to them or even aiming for a square Tier 3 class. :thog:
Your suggestions are noted, but the only one even remotely likely to happen is Let's Dance. But thanks for your input. :smallsmile:

@Eldest: Well, the only way you can recover all of your Moxie at once is by resting. But it would be pretty silly for UF to refund part of it's cost, netting you one free UC for the price of four. I'll fix that.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, added the clarification to Uppercut Finish and I fiddled with the Maneuvers known and readied progression for the class a bit.

Edit: And added in what I forgot concerning regaining Moxie. :smallredface:

[SiuiS]

The description says you start with 3 known maneuvers, then the next section says you can only prepare 4 of your 6 known maneuvers.

Under Dukes, it calls the class "monk".

What are your goals here? You asked for feedback, the feedback was 'it's too strong' and you say that isn't a problem. What is the balancing point? Being better than a warblade or swordsage seems ok, so what, you want a tier 2?

[Tanuki Tales]

The description says you start with 3 known maneuvers, then the next section says you can only prepare 4 of your 6 known maneuvers.

Under Dukes, it calls the class "monk".

What are your goals here? You asked for feedback, the feedback was 'it's too strong' and you say that isn't a problem. What is the balancing point? Being better than a warblade or swordsage seems ok, so what, you want a tier 2?

Gah, I knew something was off when I was re-reading through it. Thanks.

Well, only one person said it was "overpowered" and I don't consider the feedback of one person to be the general feedback even if its the only feedback so far ( and would still be my opinion if someone had said it was balanced or underpowered). No offense meant to anyone, I'm just saying this as an example, but some people do honestly think that the 3.5 Monk was overpowered or that Wizards were underpowered. So it's when multiple people come to a similar consensus that a stated opinion stops becoming an outlier and becomes more grounded (though you could argue that this doesn't matter when the outlier is in fact the only opinion grounded in truth, but that's really more depth than would be on topic for this thread).

TL;DR: Only one person said it was overpowered and no one else has given real feedback yet or agreed with that statement.

Unless I state otherwise, I generally build my classes to fall inbetween Tier 3 and Tier 1.

[Gideon Falcon]

I have to say... I love the fluff. It does need a slower progression of maneuvers and moxie points, though.

[Tanuki Tales]

I have to say... I love the fluff. It does need a slower progression of maneuvers and moxie points, though.

Thanks, but which bit? :smallbiggrin:

And I was just about to fiddle with the maneuver progression again when I saw you had posted here and went to investigate.

The Moxie is probably staying as is, but I might change the capstone to give less Moxie then it does currently. I'll probably review this more and may just balance it between the Monk's Ki Pool and the Gunslinger's Grit (like 1/4 Class + Wis and then 1/2 at Capstone).

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, changed the Maneuver known to match Crusader (I wanted it to have more than what the Warblade had and I have had reservations since I first made it that it had too many maneuvers known) and the Maneuvers readied to match that of the Warblade.

Still considering changing the Moxie point size granted by the class.

[unosarta]

Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, EW! Please, please, please don't use the d3. It is like the most useless dice ever. If you are going to use a dice for Good Right Hook, just use a d4. It is on average 1 damage more than a d3, and not completely fricking stupid, like the d3. :smallyuk:

Sorry if that came off as aggressive, but I hate the d3.

[Edit]: Baccano is awesome. I completely didn't see the image and connect it to your avatar until scrolling up to the top. :D

[Tanuki Tales]

Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, EW! Please, please, please don't use the d3. It is like the most useless dice ever. If you are going to use a dice for Good Right Hook, just use a d4. It is on average 1 damage more than a d3, and not completely fricking stupid, like the d3. :smallyuk:

Sorry if that came off as aggressive, but I hate the d3.

[Edit]: Baccano is awesome. I completely didn't see the image and connect it to your avatar until scrolling up to the top. :D

Well, Good Right Hook became part of this class when I sat down and decided which Disiciplines it would have access to. I liked Life's Blood as a whole, but it does require Skirmish in order to really use it outside a few maneuvers.

Then I took a look at Skirmish and looked at it when put in the same mindset as the class; they just didn't mesh. So I came up with a new precision damage mechanic that would play more to the feel and style of the class.

The problem was that a boxer would more believably move five feet than the ten feet that Skirmish normally requires and I didn't want to give Skirmish damage for basically half the price. So I cut the damage in half, thus the use of 1d3.

I guess I could up it to a d4 if that wouldn't affect the class' balance and power level any further.

And don't worry about coming off as aggressive 'cause I probably do too. :smallbiggrin:



I can't put into words my love for Baccano!, so I shall simply agree with you call it awesome. :smallwink:

[SiuiS]

I disagree, I like the d3, feel it adds character. It is a pain to roll, though, I'll give you that. You may be better off giving a bonus, and letting it scale. +1 at low levels, move up to something trivial like +5 or +6 at high levels. The real good point is counting as skirmish, I believe.

My initial impressions from my first read through.
"Hm, a pugilist. If he's using hooks, then hopefully he has a lower damage than an equal level monk."
"huh? Just three maneuvers. Change them out over time... That's pretty cool, I might try that."
"Oh, it's a progression. That's less unique but makes more sense."
"I'm getting a pathfinder vibe here, is this pathfinder? I'm not qualified to critique pathfinder."
"Hm. This seems pretty high-power."

My final thoughts were that I wouldn't use it in my games, but I prefer lower power. Warblade et al are about the top level for power in my games, though, where they are middle of the road standard in others.

I'll give it another once-over and see if I can give you actual feedback instead of musings :smallwink:

-

Ok, so my first thought is, there is almost nothing in the first few levels you can't get from monk1/barbarian1. Chaos monk gives you 1d4-1 extra attacks on a flurry, spirit lion whirling frenzy barbarian gives you pounce and and an extra attack. With flaws, I can either do a standard action 2-3 attacks with prizefighter, or full-round action move double and 3-7 attacks at the same penalty. The prizefighter only wins out on having maneuvers, here, and you could theoretically apply an alternate unarmed strike ruleset (in this case, chaos monk's chaos flurry) to the unarmed swordsage, which means;

In a game where I could talk the DM into letting me play a prizefighter, I could also talk him into letting me play spirit lion whirling frenzy barbarian1/unarmed swordsage1, and come out ahead.

As for Dukes/deft right hook, a physics quibble (and sadly, my VERY FIRST thought when going through the class), is that a hook is a horrible weak punch, unless you are wearing boxing gloves.
The padding makes a straight shot weaker, but adds the weight for a roundabout swing to clip someone with force. A bare-knuckle brawled will do mug more harm to his foes with a straight shot, than with a hook. So, given that the hook is a style choice, and part of brawling, I would do the following;

Reduce the Dukes damage progression to either be one die smaller, or follow the Inkyo progression from the Rokugan sourcebook.
Redo Deft Right Hook as either a small die progression (1 -> 1d2 -> 1d3 etc.) or a static bonus (+1 - +10) that compensates for it.
This would make players more likely to use the class feature (rather than avoid it's d3 all the time), and make more visceral sense, as martial arts originated with intent to kill, and were darn good at it. Yes, MMA fighters can beat gender judo martial artists, but street punks who hurt others for a living can beat MMA fighters; its all about aggression at that point.

Those are all I can think of, and they don't seem like much, do they? I'm not sure how to change up Rapid Fire Dukes, but it looks like a renamed monk power, that has already been replaced. You are basing the class feature off of a weaker variant of a bad class, rather than a strong variant, which seems counter to your design goals.
For Dukes/Deft Right Hook, you don't have any real problems, I'm just nitpicking.

[mootoall]

Immunity to poison + large benefits from poison = IV Black Lotus Poison all day erry day. Fix that, or get rid of it. I like it thematically, but it's very open to abuse. Edit: whoops, missed the "Up to class levels" bit. It's ... better, then. Still, essentially a +20 HP to any character worth his salt.

I would recommend spoilering the picture though, it's stretching my screen.

Other than that, I like it a lot. I agree with changing the die size (d3? Ew.), but other than that it looks like a very powerful T4.

[Tanuki Tales]

I disagree, I like the d3, feel it adds character. It is a pain to roll, though, I'll give you that. You may be better off giving a bonus, and letting it scale. +1 at low levels, move up to something trivial like +5 or +6 at high levels. The real good point is counting as skirmish, I believe.

My initial impressions from my first read through.
"Hm, a pugilist. If he's using hooks, then hopefully he has a lower damage than an equal level monk."
"huh? Just three maneuvers. Change them out over time... That's pretty cool, I might try that."
"Oh, it's a progression. That's less unique but makes more sense."
"I'm getting a pathfinder vibe here, is this pathfinder? I'm not qualified to critique pathfinder."
"Hm. This seems pretty high-power."

My final thoughts were that I wouldn't use it in my games, but I prefer lower power. Warblade et al are about the top level for power in my games, though, where they are middle of the road standard in others.

I'll give it another once-over and see if I can give you actual feedback instead of musings :smallwink:

I apologize in advance for not multiquoting, I just find all the coding to be a real pain since I don't like to butcher or ignore the coding of the original post.

It needs to be a damage dice instead of just a flat bonus because the Life's Blood discipline has a few maneuvers that add d6s (d3s in the current case for the Prize Fighter) to Skirmish damage.
I keep the same damage progression for Unarmed because the Monk had enough trouble dealing damage in the first place, especially with the usually exorbitant prices you needed to pay to enchant their Unarmed Strikes if you couldn't use Savage Species.
Yup, it has a Pathfinder vibe. I've played in a 3.PF environment since Beta and don't plan to head back. :smallbiggrin:
It's high power depending on how your group plays. Like you said, some people use Warblade as the middle of the road instead of the end of it.
Take your time and I look forward to your feedback. ^_^

@Mootoall: 20 temp HP at most isn't really anything amazing, so I don't see it as very abusable.

Edit: Anyone else getting their screen stretched? I honestly had to blow that up a few times to make it look decent on my screen.

And ow. Anyone else thinking this is a Tier 4 class? I don't like dipping below Tier 3 when I make classes.

[SiuiS]

Solid critique edited into the above.

For dice, I would suggest making it a slowly increasing die, then. With a footnote that at low levels, +1 from deft right hook counts as a "skirmish die". Low level maneuvers adding say, +3 instead of +3d6 seems logical to me.

I would say, without knowing or counting specific maneuvers (including from warblade et al.) that it's low on tier 3. Lot of useful little bonuses but it's no "I deal 250+1d8 on a charge at level 4" which is how I've had melée tier 2 defined for me. It feels about as strong as the other initiate classes.

20 temp ups a round at level 20 is meh, really. At level 20 it's a speed bump for mooks because damage is either really high or unimportant. At low levels, it's immunity to poison (yay!) and an attacks worth of damage reduction, with a rather peculiar condition. It's cool, but hard to exploit when exploiting it matters.

[Tanuki Tales]

Ok, so my first thought is, there is almost nothing in the first few levels you can't get from monk1/barbarian1. Chaos monk gives you 1d4-1 extra attacks on a flurry, spirit lion whirling frenzy barbarian gives you pounce and and an extra attack. With flaws, I can either do a standard action 2-3 attacks with prizefighter, or full-round action move double and 3-7 attacks at the same penalty. The prizefighter only wins out on having maneuvers, here, and you could theoretically apply an alternate unarmed strike ruleset (in this case, chaos monk's chaos flurry) to the unarmed swordsage, which means;

In a game where I could talk the DM into letting me play a prizefighter, I could also talk him into letting me play spirit lion whirling frenzy barbarian1/unarmed swordsage1, and come out ahead.

As for Dukes/deft right hook, a physics quibble (and sadly, my VERY FIRST thought when going through the class), is that a hook is a horrible weak punch, unless you are wearing boxing gloves.
The padding makes a straight shot weaker, but adds the weight for a roundabout swing to clip someone with force. A bare-knuckle brawled will do mug more harm to his foes with a straight shot, than with a hook. So, given that the hook is a style choice, and part of brawling, I would do the following;

Reduce the Dukes damage progression to either be one die smaller, or follow the Inkyo progression from the Rokugan sourcebook.
Redo Deft Right Hook as either a small die progression (1 -> 1d2 -> 1d3 etc.) or a static bonus (+1 - +10) that compensates for it.
This would make players more likely to use the class feature (rather than avoid it's d3 all the time), and make more visceral sense, as martial arts originated with intent to kill, and were darn good at it. Yes, MMA fighters can beat gender judo martial artists, but street punks who hurt others for a living can beat MMA fighters; its all about aggression at that point.

Those are all I can think of, and they don't seem like much, do they? I'm not sure how to change up Rapid Fire Dukes, but it looks like a renamed monk power, that has already been replaced. You are basing the class feature off of a weaker variant of a bad class, rather than a strong variant, which seems counter to your design goals.
For Dukes/Deft Right Hook, you don't have any real problems, I'm just nitpicking.

This first bit honestly leaves me lost in what you're trying to say. Are you saying that my Prize Fighter is as strong out of the box and by itself as that combination of ACFs/Alternate Classes/etc. or that it's on par with the general field of melee combat out of the box when using medium optimization?
The name is actually an in-joke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaZdFQcKvjk&feature=related) (1:54) [Warning: The episode is titled "Ladd Russo enjoys talking a lot and slaughtering a lot" so please expect gore and violence before clicking] towards the character the class was inspired by and used as its image, Ladd Russo. If what you said concerning it after this still applies after knowing that, let me know and I'll read more indepth and address your suggestions.
Rapid Fire Fisticuffs may be based off a weak class feature from a Tier 5 class, but the reason it was weak was because the Monk had a medium BaB progression and required a full-attack action to use it (And reach may have factored in too, but that might have just been the Monk in melee as a whole, not just Flurry of Blows). The Prize Fighter on the other hand has a Full BaB and can use RFF as a standard action, thus allowing more mobility than the Monk had (that and the fact you can add in a maneuver as part of the RFF as well as all the combat maneuvers I lifted from Pathfinder's Flurry of Blows).
Any solid feedback is gold at this point.

[unosarta]

This is definitely not a tier 4 class. First of all; 6 skill points per level, in addition to a fairly solid skill list. Second of all, the disciplines are pretty varied. They are good at what they do (sort of skirmishy martial artist), but can also function as party face, with skills, or the party scout, with Perception and high movement (although I might just think about adding Hide, because Shadow Hand would be really fun to switch out with another discipline to add to the class, and Hide almost makes s-- I am a dumbass. I forgot about stealth; never mind!) They can play the thief. Given their skill list, they can play frigging anyone.

Also, the Prize Fighter's feats allows him to diversify even more.

This is however, really really powerful. I would recommend toning down the chassis; this is probably better than many PF classes. d8 and medium BAB would be fine. Also, if you are willing, medium save progression on one of the saves would work as well.

[Tanuki Tales]

This is however, really really powerful. I would recommend toning down the chassis; this is probably better than many PF classes. d8 and medium BAB would be fine. Also, if you are willing, medium save progression on one of the saves would work as well.

You mind clarifying which classes you mean specifically? Like I said, I don't mind this guy being powerful or even spilling from Tier 3 into Tier 2.

And the d8 and medium BaB were two of the big flaws of the Monk, so I'm not going to revert that unless...well...absolutely necessary after all other avenues have been exhausted. :smallfrown:

I might change one of the save progressions though.

[mootoall]

Missed the skill list. At first I thought it was just very, very good at being a mobile fighter, but the skill list does add the needed versatility for T3. Don't change the BAB, but the HD wouldn't suffer from being made a d8. And I'd allow their pseudo-skirmish to activate on a five-foot step, with the caveat that it only activates when they move exactly five feet. Feels more boxer-y if you ask me.

[SiuiS]

I am a "find new uses for existing things" kind of colt, so what I was getting at with the first point was this;

• Why play prize fighter, when I can get the same effect, only better, with existing stuff? Prize-fighter 1 is a barbarian with some feats. Prize fighter two is weaker than barb1/monk1.
As I can see, low level play gives you
-flurry
-Maneuvers
-wisdom to AC, damage

Which alone doesn't seem enough to warrant it's own class.
Levels 5-10 likewise seem about on par (you come off as a knight/barbarian/swordsage, instead of just barbarian/swordsage), and at 11th plus, you start getting abilities on par with high-level Prestige Classes.

So over-all, if you are going for a standard op game, it's over-powered (because it fulfills the functions of two or more classes simultaneously). In. High power game, where stuff like IP proofing matters, it's not stand-out enough to be worth a class. It's a solid class, but it suffers in that a multiclass'd dip build can change features the player doesn't want (by changing the build) a prizefighter 20 cannot.

• maneuvers. These are out of my ability to accurately judge. Some swordsages can rock the boat, others are just as bad as monks. Same here; not being really familiar with the styles, and thus being ignorant of a good portion of the class' actual features, it could be an awesom, rocket up towards tier 2 or a fairly vanilla 3/4 blend. That's why I focused on the RFF/dukes/deft right hook; those I can be confident about.

• re-reading DRH, it's fine as is. Mechanically, it's circle the opponent, knock them senseless (and activate other class features). The flavor text like the name are unimportant, so I should gripe about them. D3s have some hate though, so change it up somehow.

That's all I've got. I read through a bunch of the homebrew maneuvers and styles, found them to be cool and solid, but I can't recall any particulars and it's too dry a read for me.

[Tanuki Tales]

@SiuiS:

Alright, then do you have anything in mind to suggest to eliminate that flaw in the first five levels in the class? And if that was your blurb after your nit-picking I completely apologize and will go read it. :smallredface:
Well, Iron Heart is one of its disciplines meaning Prize Fighter's have access to the Infamous "BY CROM!" (or to the layman, Ironheart Surge). And if memory serves Diamond Mind was a good discipline (Although I think Stone Dragon was called subpar).
I'm going to go change the d3s to d4s now. 5 more damage at max, but still 10 damage under Skirmish proper.
Just a small thing, but why do you keep calling Good Right Hook "Deft Right Hook" and Rapid Fire Fisticuffs "Rapid Fire Dukes"? ^^;

Edit:

@Moot: 5 foot steps keying off Good Right Hook just feels, I dunno, like a pain? Nothing says you can't move after taking a 5 foot step and a 5 foot step is kind of a free action so a Prize Fighter would just be saying verbatim each round that they're taking a 5 foot step to have their bases covered.

[unosarta]

You mind clarifying which classes you mean specifically? Like I said, I don't mind this guy being powerful or even spilling from Tier 3 into Tier 2.

And the d8 and medium BaB were two of the big flaws of the Monk, so I'm not going to revert that unless...well...absolutely necessary after all other avenues have been exhausted. :smallfrown:

I might change one of the save progressions though.

Nononono, that isn't how Tier Works. Even if you make this Triple BAB and a d100 hit dice, it will still be Tier 3. Tier is about flexibility of the class, rather than the raw power of the class. These factors are often hand in hand (looking at you, Wizard), but not necessarily. The main point is, without some serious additions to the flexibility (most likely spells or something along those lines), this pretty much cannot be Tier 2. Of course, it can still be pretty damn powerful, on its own right.

As for the classes it outdoes, in Pathfinder; Barbarian, Fighter, probably Bard in raw power, Monk, Paladin, probably Ranger, and probably Rogue (although I love what they have done with Rogue). Solely based on chassis, it overshadows most every single class bar Ranger. The only classes it cannot outdo are the spellcasting classes, because you seriously cannot beat fullcasting (although PF does do some stuff to mitigate this).

As for the monk's biggest flaws; the monk's biggest flaws were the completely useless (from a design perspective) class features. The class had no theme, no real abilities that worked well together. It had nothing going for it. d8 hit die and medium BAB were hardly the most of its worries. First of all, the class had no theme. Some of its abilities were supernatural, some were mundane, some were about skirmishy stuff, some were about standing still and hitting a bunch (or missing). This combined to mean that the Monk's class features didn't mean jack ****. The missing problem was partly to do with the medium BAB, but also to do with the Multi-Ability Dependency, which this class smartly avoids. The d8 hit die wasn't really a real problem for the monk, since, if it didn't have such stupid MAD, it wouldn't have really had a problem with AC or saves, if you think about it. But it did. The monk's real problems were the lack of cohesion among class features, the MADness of the class, and the stupidity of the designers. You have avoided all of this stuff, and given it extras as well. This honestly doesn't deserve or need full BAB, and it really doesn't need a d10 either.

[Tanuki Tales]

Nononono, that isn't how Tier Works. Even if you make this Triple BAB and a d100 hit dice, it will still be Tier 3. Tier is about flexibility of the class, rather than the raw power of the class. These factors are often hand in hand (looking at you, Wizard), but not necessarily. The main point is, without some serious additions to the flexibility (most likely spells or something along those lines), this pretty much cannot be Tier 2. Of course, it can still be pretty damn powerful, on its own right.

Just want to nitpick here; the Tier system takes into account both Power and Flexibility, among other things. Though the nine lords know how long it's been since I gave that thread a serious read so I could be wrong.


As for the classes it outdoes, in Pathfinder; Barbarian, Fighter, probably Bard in raw power, Monk, Paladin, probably Ranger, and probably Rogue (although I love what they have done with Rogue). Solely based on chassis, it overshadows most every single class bar Ranger. The only classes it cannot outdo are the spellcasting classes, because you seriously cannot beat fullcasting (although PF does do some stuff to mitigate this).

Well, I'm fine with that and it would be kind of expected. The classes didn't really change Tiers in Pathfinder, so even by being Tier 3 the Prize Fighter would be "superior" to all those classes except the Bard. But if memory serves you need splats for Bard to be Tier 3 anyways.


As for the monk's biggest flaws; the monk's biggest flaws were the completely useless (from a design perspective) class features. The class had no theme, no real abilities that worked well together. It had nothing going for it. d8 hit die and medium BAB were hardly the most of its worries. First of all, the class had no theme. Some of its abilities were supernatural, some were mundane, some were about skirmishy stuff, some were about standing still and hitting a bunch (or missing). This combined to mean that the Monk's class features didn't mean jack ****. The missing problem was partly to do with the medium BAB, but also to do with the Multi-Ability Dependency, which this class smartly avoids. The d8 hit die wasn't really a real problem for the monk, since, if it didn't have such stupid MAD, it wouldn't have really had a problem with AC or saves, if you think about it. But it did. The monk's real problems were the lack of cohesion among class features, the MADness of the class, and the stupidity of the designers. You have avoided all of this stuff, and given it extras as well. This honestly doesn't deserve or need full BAB, and it really doesn't need a d10 either.

Well, when I made my initial research thread, some of the first big flaws tossed out was the class's Hit Die and BaB progression coupled with it's serious case of MAD. Then came how crappy Flurry of Blows was followed by the rest. So while I feel this class may not be MAD, I'm wary to reduce the HD or BaB.

[unosarta]

Just want to nitpick here; the Tier system takes into account both Power and Flexibility, among other things. Though the nine lords know how long it's been since I gave that thread a serious read so I could be wrong.
Nope, it's solely based on flexibility. It is a common mistake, and one that is seen all over the board, but Tier is based largely/entirely on flexibility of the class itself.


Well, I'm fine with that and it would be kind of expected. The classes didn't really change Tiers in Pathfinder, so even by being Tier 3 the Prize Fighter would be "superior" to all those classes except the Bard. But if memory serves you need splats for Bard to be Tier 3 anyways.
I will be honest that PF didn't really change tiers, but the chassis differences are severe, and honestly unwarranted. Remember, I am not talking about Tier here, but chassis. Two different things.


Well, when I made my initial research thread, some of the first big flaws tossed out was the class's Hit Die and BaB progression coupled with it's serious case of MAD. Then came how crappy Flurry of Blows was followed by the rest. So while I feel this class may not be MAD, I'm wary to reduce the HD or BaB.
That is really incorrect. Giving the monk full BAB will make it be able to hit more, but it won't overall solve the problem of the interaction of class abilities that the monk has. As for MAD, the only problem I can see is that one of the abilities (the fear aura) is based on Charisma while the others are pretty much all on Wisdom. You could easily change it to Wisdom and have it just be the way the Prize Fighter reads the opponent that freaks the opponent out. It wouldn't be illogical.

[Tanuki Tales]

Nope, it's solely based on flexibility. It is a common mistake, and one that is seen all over the board, but Tier is based largely/entirely on flexibility of the class itself.

I could have sworn that Tier 1 had Power and Versatility, Tier 2 had Power but not the Versatility and Tier 3 had the Versatility but not the Power.



I will be honest that PF didn't really change tiers, but the chassis differences are severe, and honestly unwarranted. Remember, I am not talking about Tier here, but chassis. Two different things.

Ah, thought you were comparing Tiers.



That is really incorrect. Giving the monk full BAB will make it be able to hit more, but it won't overall solve the problem of the interaction of class abilities that the monk has. As for MAD, the only problem I can see is that one of the abilities (the fear aura) is based on Charisma while the others are pretty much all on Wisdom. You could easily change it to Wisdom and have it just be the way the Prize Fighter reads the opponent that freaks the opponent out. It wouldn't be illogical.

I'm not saying that they're the only problems that need fixing, just that they were the first two mentioned when combined with MAD.

I'll probably end up having the auras based off Wis and dropping the hit dice to d8. But I still want to keep the Prize Fighter at full BaB. Though these are thoughts for tomorrow and not at 2 am with a hurricane raging.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, looking back over the class, I do agree that it can work with a d8 Hit Dice. Between the Damage Reduction, lack of MAD and the healing mechanics in both the class features and the maneuvers, this class doesn't need as high a Hit Dice as I originally thought.

All the abilities that were keyed off Charisma are now keyed off Wisdom.

[mootoall]

:smallannoyed: The Tier system does measure both power and versatility. The reason that the Barbarian is T4 is because it's really good at dealing damage, and mostly useless in other situations. The Swordsage is T3 because it's good at both skills and kicking the crap out of people. The Sorcerer is T2 because it can break the game, but can't change its spell list every day. The Druid is T1 because it knows all of its spells, can change them every day, and has world breaking power potential.

This is T3 as it is for the same reason the Swordsage is. Its slower maneuver progression balances out its decent class features, but it is still probably more powerful than the Swordsage.

I would play it as is, though I would be more comfortable with 4+Int skill points, because as is, because of its small skill list, you can max out most of it with absolutely no Int bonus.

[Seerow]

What exactly is the point of second wind?

You have to spend 2 moxie, to gain a pitiful amount of HP. Seriously 20 HP at level 20 isn't even worth wasting an action on, let alone a resource on top of it.


That's a feature you can either eliminate entirely, or need to make more effective to warrant keeping.

[Tanuki Tales]

What exactly is the point of second wind?

You have to spend 2 moxie, to gain a pitiful amount of HP. Seriously 20 HP at level 20 isn't even worth wasting an action on, let alone a resource on top of it.


That's a feature you can either eliminate entirely, or need to make more effective to warrant keeping.

Was waiting to hear something about that. xD

It's a place holder at the moment. I was possibly thinking of it recovering twice your level and removing fatigue and/or downgrading exhaustion to fatigue, but I didn't want to shove that idea in at the get go.

[Seerow]

Was waiting to hear something about that. xD

It's a place holder at the moment. I was possibly thinking of it recovering twice your level and removing fatigue and/or downgrading exhaustion to fatigue, but I didn't want to shove that idea in at the get go.

I'd make it a pool of healing that lets you recover up to your level times your wisdom modifier in HP, but that healing can be broken up however you want. It can be refreshed by spending say 5 moxie (this means when you first get it if you have low wisdom you may not be able to refresh the pool).

[Groverfield]

Any reason unarmed strike damage progresses past 20th level, when no other unarmed fighter does? (It even notes that it doesn't have a progression in the DMG... nevermind, I just noticed this is [PF]... but I dont know the [PF] rules on epic, can't find any mention in my CRB)

The biggest glaring problem I see is the "Rapid Fire Fisticuffs" as a standard action, when anyone else wanting to squeeze off an extra arrow or offhand attack has to either make a full attack or a pounce...

Also, is it wise to make someone specialized in having a confrontational personality to the point of an almost supernatural ability to goad opponents into attacking you to be your party's representative diplomat? I think it might be wise to switch that out for Gather Information, as you can intimidate or using lingual tricks into getting information out of people...

"At sixteenth level, his unarmed strikes are treated as one material of his choice. "
Is this choice made once, and permanent, or is it like a Battle Dancer's (who has to standard action and skill check to change it, then it lasts for a limited number of rounds), or is it changeable at-will? I'm not so sure that this second one is balanced...

I don't think this class really needs "Good Right Hook" as written right now... your free-five-foot step enables all of your punches to be a "Good Right Hook" for a die size short of a scout's extra damage? I'd say remove the requirement, and make it so you can declare your right hook once per round would both flatten it out, so the ability becomes more of a special blow than a "Oh, I just add 5 dice to my unarmed attacks because I stepped" You could alternatively make it so this enables them to use their free-five mid full-attack, and the next attack gets the bonus damage.

Unarmed swordsage drops light armor proficiency, and drops the bonus to when not wearing any armor... though in late game this doesn't matter.

After all of those changes, the class would still look like ~2.8 classes gestalted together...

[Tanuki Tales]

Any reason unarmed strike damage progresses past 20th level, when no other unarmed fighter does? (It even notes that it doesn't have a progression in the DMG... nevermind, I just noticed this is [PF]... but I dont know the [PF] rules on epic, can't find any mention in my CRB)

This was one of the suggestions from my research thread that I found both sound and intriguing. One of the many problems with the Monk is that there was very little reason to take it to twenty when it comes to Unarmed damage. There are a multitude of "effective Monk level" options in the game for Unarmed Strike progression and the Monk's Unarmed Strike progression gets capped at 20. By extending this cap into the 40s it means that a level 20 Prize Fighter still gets use out of things like Monk's belts or the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (assuming they're logically allowed to apply to the Prize Fighter's Unarmed Strike progression).


The biggest glaring problem I see is the "Rapid Fire Fisticuffs" as a standard action, when anyone else wanting to squeeze off an extra arrow or offhand attack has to either make a full attack or a pounce...

And what you see as a glaring problem is pretty much one of the big reasons why Flurry of Blows was useless. :smalltongue:


Also, is it wise to make someone specialized in having a confrontational personality to the point of an almost supernatural ability to goad opponents into attacking you to be your party's representative diplomat? I think it might be wise to switch that out for Gather Information, as you can intimidate or using lingual tricks into getting information out of people...

Diplomacy absorbed Gather Info in Pathfinder.


"At sixteenth level, his unarmed strikes are treated as one material of his choice. "
Is this choice made once, and permanent, or is it like a Battle Dancer's (who has to standard action and skill check to change it, then it lasts for a limited number of rounds), or is it changeable at-will? I'm not so sure that this second one is balanced...


A Prize Fighter may change what alignment or material his unarmed strikes count as by spending 1 Moxie point for each.

And seeing as how difficult and/or expensive enchanting unarmed strikes is, I don't see how this is unbalanced. It just means you don't need to spend 32,000 gold to remain competitive in combat with your main weapon choice.


I don't think this class really needs "Good Right Hook" as written right now... your free-five-foot step enables all of your punches to be a "Good Right Hook" for a die size short of a scout's extra damage? I'd say remove the requirement, and make it so you can declare your right hook once per round would both flatten it out, so the ability becomes more of a special blow than a "Oh, I just add 5 dice to my unarmed attacks because I stepped" You could alternatively make it so this enables them to use their free-five mid full-attack, and the next attack gets the bonus damage.


A Prize Fighter relies on on their footwork and timing to really lay the hurt on their foes. He deals an extra 1d4 points of damage on all attacks he makes during any round that he moves at least 5 feet [A 5 foot step does not count for this purpose]. The extra damage only applies to attacks taken during the Prize Fighter's turn.

The extra damage only applies against creatures that the Prize Fighter can see or discern and are not immune to critical hits or precision damage.

This class feature counts as the Skirmish class feature for any ability, feat or effect that requires or affects the Skirmish class feature. This ability does not allow a Prize Fighter to qualify for Prestige classes that require the Skirmish class feature.

Emphasis mine.

And the ability is for easily keying off the Life's Blood discipline without always having to be in the stance that grants Skirmish. I also didn't feel that some of the fluff and crunch for Skirmish fit my class, thus a creation of a new mechanic.


Unarmed swordsage drops light armor proficiency, and drops the bonus to when not wearing any armor... though in late game this doesn't matter.

Good for the Unarmed Swordsage?


After all of those changes, the class would still look like ~2.8 classes gestalted together...

Your opinion is noted.

[mootoall]

The thing is, it's 2.8 rather weak classes gestalted together, plus synergistic abilities, making it, again, balanced against the Swordsage power and versatility-wise.

[unosarta]

:smallannoyed: The Tier system does measure both power and versatility. The reason that the Barbarian is T4 is because it's really good at dealing damage, and mostly useless in other situations. The Swordsage is T3 because it's good at both skills and kicking the crap out of people. The Sorcerer is T2 because it can break the game, but can't change its spell list every day. The Druid is T1 because it knows all of its spells, can change them every day, and has world breaking power potential.

This is T3 as it is for the same reason the Swordsage is. Its slower maneuver progression balances out its decent class features, but it is still probably more powerful than the Swordsage.

I would play it as is, though I would be more comfortable with 4+Int skill points, because as is, because of its small skill list, you can max out most of it with absolutely no Int bonus.

Kind of, but not really. (linky) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)
JaronK mentions power a few times, but raw power alone is not enough to bump a tier 3 class up to tier 2. For instance, if you made a Fighter deal 1 million bajillion damage on each attack, he still wouldn't be able to contribute to a majority of encounters that don't involve combat (or any of them, really). That is the point. Even with insane power levels, if the class can't do just about everything (which almost requires spellcasting, as stupid as that is), they arguably can't qualify for tier 2.

The tier system is about how many situations each class is able to contribute to. Tier 3's can contribute to more situations than tier 4's, but still remain good at the main situation they are focused on handling. Tier 2's can deal with pretty much any situation, but is generally considered to be locked into one build, and as such cannot change which situations they are nominally best at. Tier 1's can deal with any situation at all, and given the preparation, can change which situations they can deal with on a whim. Or at least, that is the idea.

[Pyromancer999]

If I were you, I'd consider adding these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-188796.html) feats to the bonus feat list.

[mootoall]

Kind of, but not really. (linky) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)
JaronK mentions power a few times, but raw power alone is not enough to bump a tier 3 class up to tier 2. For instance, if you made a Fighter deal 1 million bajillion damage on each attack, he still wouldn't be able to contribute to a majority of encounters that don't involve combat (or any of them, really). That is the point. Even with insane power levels, if the class can't do just about everything (which almost requires spellcasting, as stupid as that is), they arguably can't qualify for tier 2.

The tier system is about how many situations each class is able to contribute to. Tier 3's can contribute to more situations than tier 4's, but still remain good at the main situation they are focused on handling. Tier 2's can deal with pretty much any situation, but is generally considered to be locked into one build, and as such cannot change which situations they are nominally best at. Tier 1's can deal with any situation at all, and given the preparation, can change which situations they can deal with on a whim. Or at least, that is the idea.

Raw power is exactly what changes a Tier 3 to a Tier 2 or 1. The definition of T2 and T1 is that they break the game. Just one does it in a different way than the other. From the very thread you linked: "Tier 1: ... Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party." "Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks."

But this is not a tier discussion thread.

[Seerow]

Raw power is exactly what changes a Tier 3 to a Tier 2 or 1. The definition of T2 and T1 is that they break the game. Just one does it in a different way than the other. From the very thread you linked: "Tier 1: ... Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party." "Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks."

But this is not a tier discussion thread.

You're confusing "break the game" with "raw power".

This class has a fair bit of power. But nothing that will break the game. A fighter who deals 10 billion damage on a hit won't break the game, because there's still plenty of ways to shut him down or deny his damage.

This class has some decent raw power, but not game breaking power. It's not chain gating solars, or binding efreeti for infinite wishes. It isn't mind switching itself into an adamantium golem and becoming immune to everything. It isn't taking the action economy and bending it over its knees. It's not delivering tons of unavoidable unresistable damage. It's not turning enemies into loyal allies, or summoning hordes of allies.

These are things that tier 1 and 2 classes are capable of. Being good at damage is never going to push you further than tier 4. Having some options in and out of combat won't push you past tier 3. Just about the only way to have a tier 2 class is to have a full caster with a fairly diverse spell list. The only way to get a tier 1 class is to have a full caster with a diverse spell list and nothing limiting access to that full list.

[mootoall]

That's what I'm saying. I've been on the record as calling this T3, because it doesn't have any methods of breaking the game. But I guess we're using different definitions of raw power- I don't think dealing damage is power, I think that the capability to win the game is raw power.

[Tanuki Tales]

If I were you, I'd consider adding these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-188796.html) feats to the bonus feat list.

I believe I will. :smallbiggrin:

[SiuiS]

the board reset ate my post las night, I messed up my copy/paste-kido, and was frustrated, so late reply is late.


The thing is, it's 2.8 rather weak classes gestalted together, plus synergistic abilities, making it, again, balanced against the Swordsage power and versatility-wise.

This is about right.
The class is balanced ok, but it's not strong enough to match your design goals, and too strong for "standard play". Enchantment is weak for unarmed fighters because of the price, right? So extra attacks aren't a bad thing. The prizefighter gets lower damage on average, for what constitutes, currently, as free Oversized TWF and TW pounce. That... That does not sound good.

So give them more attacks. When monks are doing d8+Str, and fighters are doing d8+d6+Str and a half, these guys are doing 3d8+[3xStr] if they land all their attacks. They either get nullified by damage reduction, or have to expend power to overcome it, which is the point of DR. So it sounds good to me.

[Tanuki Tales]

the board reset ate my post las night, I messed up my copy/paste-kido, and was frustrated, so late reply is late.



This is about right.
The class is balanced ok, but it's not strong enough to match your design goals, and too strong for "standard play". Enchantment is weak for unarmed fighters because of the price, right? So extra attacks aren't a bad thing. The prizefighter gets lower damage on average, for what constitutes, currently, as free Oversized TWF and TW pounce. That... That does not sound good.

So give them more attacks. When monks are doing d8+Str, and fighters are doing d8+d6+Str and a half, these guys are doing 3d8+[3xStr] if they land all their attacks. They either get nullified by damage reduction, or have to expend power to overcome it, which is the point of DR. So it sounds good to me.

Once again, I'm a little lost at what you're actually trying to say here. :smallredface:

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, I cut down the amount of Moxie the class gets.