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Firechanter
2011-08-28, 02:50 PM
This is for an upcoming game of D&D in a homebrew setting that's supposed to be a militaristic campaign with a focus on T3 power level, using mainly classes like Crusader, Warblade, Bard (with some minor flavour tweaks), and the Swift Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170358) presented on this board as Ranger replacement.
Druids, Wizards and Sorcerers are banned, as are all other T1-2 classes.

However, I'm not quite happy with the alternatives to the standard Cleric class. For instance:
- Spontaneous Cleric: too limited spell list. Select the basic restorative spells, and you have hardly any room left for fun stuff. Conversely, pick combat and utility spells and you aren't much of a healer anymore, but still good for T2.
- Favoured Soul: likewise; also I find this class just badly thought out, with some very odd-looking nerfs built into it.
- Divine Bard: too limited spell selection, especially due to alignment restrictions; also, cannot serve as tank, which is kind of an historical element of the cleric.
- Healer: don't get me started.
- Village Priest (Homebrew): way too narrow and limited spell list and no abilities to speak of. Imho this is just a T5.

So long story short, I'd like to revise the Cleric class to fit in more nicely into a T3 game, taking away potentially gamebreaking stuff while letting it keep its versatility.

My idea was to replace the spell progression with that of the Bard, but stick to Prepared casting. The spell list also should also be tweaked a little, mainly by readjusting some of the spells' levels so they don't come too late.

Some adjusted spell levels:
- Restoration (3)
- Neutralize Poison (3)
- Raise Dead (4)
- Heal (5)
- Greater Restoration (6)
- Regenerate (6)
- Resurrection (6)

The other key characteristics would remain the same, i.e. 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, heavy armour, Turn Undead etc.

What do you guys think? Would this hit the T3 power level? Any other adjustments that should be made?

Also, a new name would be in order, to avoid confusion. ;)

Iferus
2011-08-28, 03:19 PM
Seems to be around tier 3.

Shadow Lord
2011-08-28, 07:34 PM
Well, although I can't claim to have that good a sense of balance, this doesn't quite seem to be Tier 3; the Cleric can still replace the Martial character, and the Cleric is still far too versatile to truly be limited to Tier 3.

Dralnu
2011-08-28, 07:49 PM
I would take the Pathfinder Cleric (actual class abilities, no more heavy armor, other great things) and build from there. Individually change around problematic spells. Remove nightsticks from the game. That should make it tier 3. They're still highly versatile since they have all their spells known, but I actually like spellcasters that have a huge array of spells to pick and choose from each day. I find that fun. Just make sure none of those spells are too good is all.

Jade Dragon
2011-08-28, 08:23 PM
I would take the Pathfinder Cleric (actual class abilities, no more heavy armor, other great things) and build from there. Individually change around problematic spells. Remove nightsticks from the game. That should make it tier 3. They're still highly versatile since they have all their spells known, but I actually like spellcasters that have a huge array of spells to pick and choose from each day. I find that fun. Just make sure none of those spells are too good is all.

Pathfinder clerics are still tier 1. If you mean Pathfinder cleric plus this, you should make that more clear.

Dralnu
2011-08-28, 08:55 PM
Ah, my mistake. I mean to say take the Pathfinder cleric and make those additional changes.

Ziegander
2011-08-28, 10:17 PM
Are you saying that you want to limit the Cleric to 6th level spells and call it done (aside from shifting a few higher level spells down to lower levels)?

I'm not really sure that works... but it does make a surprisingly large number of things fall in line...

Firechanter
2011-08-29, 06:54 AM
Well, some other houserules / limitations are also in order: prevent DMM abuse (i.e. the caster must be able to cast a metamagicked spell without MM reducers); only one Nightstick per person, usual stuff like that.


Are you saying that you want to limit the Cleric to 6th level spells and call it done (aside from shifting a few higher level spells down to lower levels)?

I'm not really sure that works... but it does make a surprisingly large number of things fall in line...

I don't know if it's that simple, either. I expect that some spells need to be changed individually, and would be grateful for some pointers which spells could still potentially break the game.

As for replacing the Martial character, I don't know. He can sure hold his own in melee, especially in short Divine-Power bursts (but only from level 10 on), but I'd still say he's strictly inferior to a Warblade or Swift Hunter in physical combat.
Actually, I'm considering giving him some of th specials specials from the Paladin's list, since the Paladin will more or less be replaced by the ToB Crusader.

If this can be made to work, I'd also try to revamp the other full casters in the same way, including the Wizard. A Bard or Inquisitor spell progression all around would result in a generally lower level of magic, so it would only work for a certain type of campaign.