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Kenneth
2011-08-28, 05:39 PM
CRUSADER

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Abilities|1|2|3|4
1|+1|+2|+0|+2|Judgement Fearless|-|-|-|-
2|+2|+3|+0|+3|Domain|-|-|-|-
3| +3| +3|+1|+3|Angelic Weapon Angelic Presence|-|-|-|-
4|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|1|-|-|-
5|+5|+4|+1|+4|Wings|2|-|-|-
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Holy Forge|2|1|-|-
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5||3|2|-|-
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Righteous Wrath|3|2|-|-
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|4|3|1|-
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Flight|4|3|2|-
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7||4|4|2|-
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8||4|4|3|-
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||4|4|3|-
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus Feat|4|4|4|-
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9||4|4|4|1
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||5|4|4|2
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10||5|5|4|2
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||5|5|4|3
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat|6|5|4|3
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Repentance|6|6|4|4[/table]




Skills
Same as Paladin.

Skill Points at 1st Level
(3+Int mod)x4

Skill Points Each Additional Level
3+Int mod.

Hit Die
1d10

Proficiencies
Proficient in Martial, Simple, One handed, and two handed piercing, slashing and blunt Melee weapons, As well as thrown weapons. Proficient in light, medium armor, and shields except for Tower Shields

Spell List
1st Bless, Divine Favor, Grave Strike, Magic Weapon, Protection from evil, Shield of Faith, True strike

2nd Aid, Align Weapon, Consecrate, Deific vengeance, Resist Energy, Zeal

3rd Bladestorm, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Weapon, Greater, Prayer, Righteous Fury

4th Demon Dirge, Devil Blight, Hallow, Holy Sword, Righteous Might


Special Abilities
Judgment: At 1st level, a Crusader can pronounce judgment upon his foes as a swift action Starting when the judgment is made, the Crusader receives a bonus or special ability based on the type of judgment made.
At 1st level, a Crusader can use this ability once per day. At every fifth level (twice at 5th, 3 times at 10th), the Crusader can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The Crusader must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability ends.
When the Crusader uses this ability, he must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, he can change this judgment to another type. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
Destruction: The Crusader is filled with divine wrath, gaining a +1 sacred bonus on all weapon damage rolls for every three Crusader levels he possesses.
Justice: This judgment spurs the Crusader to seek justice, granting a +1 sacred bonus on all attack rolls for every four levels she possesses. At 10th level, this bonus is doubled on all attack rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Protection: The Crusader is surrounded by a protective aura, granting a +1 sacred bonus to AC for every four Crusader levels he possesses.
Vigor: The Crusader finds himself filled with energy, gaining fasting healing 1 for every five Crusader levels he possesses

Fearless: The Crusader gains a +1 Competance bonus per Crusader level to saves against fear and terror effects. At 5th level He becomes immune to fear and his bonus to saves stops progressing. He still gains a +5 competance bonus to Terror effects.

Domain: At 2nd level a Crusader gain access to one of the following domains. Courage, Good, Glory, Retribution, or Strength

Wings: At 5st level the Crusader is granted wings, but can not use them to fly as of yet. He may use them to glide as if subject to a feather fall spell.

Angelic Weapon: At 3rd level the Crusader gets Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.

Flight: At 10th level a Crusader gains flight with her wings. He is able to fly up to double his speed with average maneuverability, provided he is not medium or heavier encumbered

Angelic Presence: At 3rd level an Crusader gains this presence. Any evil outsider within 5 ft of her gets a -3 morale penalty to attacks . A will save at DC 10+ half the Crusader’s Class level + Cha modifier to overcome.

Holy Forge: at 6th level a crusader can score critical hits against Undead, devils, demons and daemons.

Righteous Wrath:At 8th level a Crusader's Weapon gains one of the following elemental weapon qualities: flaming, frost, or shock.

Repentance: At 20th level A crusader's succesful attacks judge the target, allowing them to witness their own misdeeds and suffer for them. Causing them to suffer an additional 1d6 Holy Damage for every 2 Crusader levels, and Stuns them for 1 full round, even if the target is normally immune to stuns. A will save at DC 15+ half the Crusader’s Class level + Cha modifier halves to damage and negates the stun.

Morph Bark
2011-08-28, 05:53 PM
Work in Progress, I presume?

Kenneth
2011-08-28, 05:55 PM
No It is finished. I just relaized after posting it that i forogt to include one of the crusader's abilities. The whole table thing is sort fo confusing for me so it took longer than anticipated for me to put said ability (Fearless) in its correct place.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 01:07 PM
K, I guess maybe I was not clear enough with my thread title.

I want some critique on this class I made up. I want to know teh relative power of it and it's abilities.One thing I do not wany to know is what tier it is in because for the most part those don't really exist in my campaign world as my players tend to not use their spell, abilities and such to 'break the game'

what I am going for with the Crusader is the zealous righteous wrath holy warrior. (paladins are pushed to a more defensive/protector role with their abilites in my campaigns)

I do think teh spells need to be worked on as I see that giving somebody say.. circle against evil at 9th may be a bit too late. SO for some of the spell I am considering bumping a level lower.

jiriku
2011-08-29, 02:19 PM
I would call it a Tier 5 class, or perhaps a strong Tier 6. The flight, judgment and limited spell list offer some interesting options, but most of it just makes you better at whacking people with your sword, and none of the abilities are especially powerful for the levels at which they're granted. Compared to the paladin, you lose several of the paladin's best features, such as divine grace, special mount, and the paladin spell list, but gain little in return apart from bonus feats. Compared to the fighter, you get access to a few spells that are slightly better than most feats, but most of the abilities you gain aren't as good as well-chosen feats, and don't synergize as well as feats potentially can.

A couple of concerns I see:

You grant 3 skill points per level, which is a nonstandard progression. An even-numbered quantity of skill points is the convention. I'd recommend 4 skill points per level instead.
You need to define whether each ability is extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. This matters because it determines whether an ability provokes an attack of opportunity when you use it (but can be cast defensively), or whether it will work in an anti-magic field.
You should address what feats can be selected as bonus feats, whether it be any feat, or feats from a limited list (such as fighter bonus feats).
The domain feature doesn't make sense at 2nd level, since you have no spell slots at that level. You should grant the domain at the same time you grant spellcasting. Also, the domain list needs to map better to the class features. For instance, the Glory domain grants improvements to turn undead checks, but this class can't turn undead. That makes the Glory domain a poor fit. The Competition, Fate, or Purification domains might make better choices.
You need to establish how this class determines its caster level, spell save DCs, and bonus spells per day.
Your Fearless ability refers to "Terror" effects, but there is no such thing as a Terror effect.
Holy Forge grants the ability to deal critical damage to devils, demons, and daemons, but such creatures are not immune to critical hits.

Also, while looking at the other abilities, a couple of other things occurred to me:
While Angelic Presence is fine as far as it goes, be aware that many evil outsiders are Large or Huge, or carry reach weapons. These foes will easily be able to attack from outside the range of the aura, so this ability may not work as well as you're expecting it to.
Righteous Wrath suffers from a similar problem. While it works fine against your run-of-the-mill opponent, most evil outsiders have fire, cold and electricity resistance of 5, 10 or more (or even outright immunity) and will be unaffected by this bonus damage.

Morph Bark
2011-08-29, 02:27 PM
I thought it was a work in progress due to the fact that it is very weak and there is no fluff. Also, there is already an existing official class called the Crusader if you were not aware.

There is no such thing as a "terror" effect in DnD, unless this is meant for some edition that has them. Considering the make-up of the class, I am presuming 3.5, which does not have them.

8 dead levels, only 4 5 bonus feats (and nothing else on those levels and one of them is always Weapon Focus for no stated reason despite it being called "Angelic Weapon", which seems to indicate there is a reason). Getting wings at level 5 but only being able to use them to actually fly at level 10 is kinda weaksauce, as casters, raptorans and dragonborn can do so long before.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 02:49 PM
I need to expalin things some. I disliked teh whole 2 skill points per level that they gave certain classes. and I felt 4 was a bit much to give them. so I settled with 3. that seems to be a fair number.

as for the domains the idea is at 2nd level the gain acccess to the respective domain power, then at level 4 they can start casting said spells. As for the Glory Domain. I think giving them a 1 turn a day would be good.

as for Holy Forge and Terror efects well. they are smei-homebrewed. I Think that as notnot fully alive in the same sense that say humans and goblins are Outsiders are immune to critical hits.

As for Terror, its a hold over from my 2nd ed days, terror is in all respects Fear but can affect thing creatures that are immune to fear, that being the difference between phantasmal killer and weird.

Yes I understand that most outsiders have elemental resiatnces righteous is more for the as you put them run-of-the-mill opponents. Angelic presense is supposed to be one of those abilities that you know won't always take effect but when it does it is a great boon to your team.

Also I have homebrewed feats for this class 1 that allows you to use Judgement a extra time per day (non stackable) and another chain (2) that not only increases the DC of your angelic presence but increases the radius to 10 feet.

should I bump the casting to start at 3rd level? that is something I have been debating myself.

I was also thinking that in addition to Righetous wrath at 8th level I also give Crusaders Conviction where each successful attack gives a cumulative +1 to attack and damage. ending of course when you miss an attack or go more than 1 round attacking.

I have another ability floating around that I am not sure if i want it to be in a prestige lcass or in the Crusader called Exorcism. what exorcism does is upon fuflinng X requisite the Crusader can heal himself for a bit and deal a bit of damage to the opponent.

my defintion of a dead level and yours are different. they still get casting progression so those in my opinion are not dead levels.

and as for fluff. its no teh fluff I need critiques on it is the actual mechanics of teh class. why in the world do i need anybody's input on random fluff?

and as for raptorans and ragon born being able to fly before then. they do not exist in my world. maybe you missed teh homebrewed part. and I realize that there is already a crusader class from the ToB. your point?

jiriku
2011-08-29, 03:06 PM
When it comes to "what should I add?", a lot depends on your vision for the class and your desired balance level. If players in your campaign tend to play spellcasters vastly below their potential, and if most people prefer melee-oriented classes like fighter, samurai, and monk, then you're probably not worried too much about the class's lack of versatility or power. Indeed, from the homebrewed feats you mentioned, it sounds like you are aiming for an extremely low-powered class.

To address your specific questions:
3rd level or 4th level for spellcasting, it doesn't really matter. The class gets so few spells per day and so few spells known that acquiring casting one level earlier or later will have only the tiniest impact on gameplay.
Crusader's Conviction could create a problem. In unoptimized games, combats tend to run quite long, especially against large groups of weak opponents. A cumulative +1 to hit could result in the crusader almost never missing on an attack roll towards the end of many combats. It's more fun to roll the dice when there's a real risk of failure than when success is virtually assured. It's also extra bookkeeping to track it, which is always an undesirable thing (and is especially undesirable for higher-level play, when there's more of everything to keep track of).
Exorcism sounds like a good thing, as a dual-threat power that harms the enemy while healing yourself is quite useful. You might want to change the name though, as Exorcism refers to something else altogether.

Also worth noting:
Weird doesn't affect creatures that are immune to fear.
At levels 11, 13, and 17, the crusader gets neither class features nor additional spells per day. Those are dead levels by either definition.
Fluff is a good way to communicate your intentions about a class. It helps readers figure out what you're trying to accomplish and what the class is supposed to play like and focus on. Basically, by providing fluff, you're educating us so that we can better critique your mechanics.

Realms of Chaos
2011-08-29, 03:18 PM
Hmmmm...

Looking at this class and reading your responses to critiques, it would appear that you are playing a version of 3.5e with a wide variety of homerules and some degree of homebrew thrown in.

When I see a 3.5e class, I tend to assume that it could be included in any 3.5 game with no additional rules and function just fine. As this is clearly not the case for the class, I can hardly fault this crusader for what makes it different. Unfortunately, that makes it difficult to critique.

In your campaigns, what other classes do players tend to use and with what degree of alteration? With this information, we can at least tell you about how balanced this class would be in the campaigns where you'd use it.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 03:32 PM
Combat in my games generally only last 3 to 5 rounds, though some have lasted a lot longer for the simple fact my players didn't think too hard.

example: the fought a drow mystic theurge who was able to dimension door around ledges on the cave every so often raining down spells upon the heros while they were occupied fighting 2 umberhulks and a number of bugbear slaves. intstead of climbing up aledge and ganking her at a certain one. they stood around while the ranger shot her with arrows and the sorcerer used his wand of magic missles. yes the other 3 guys literally justs tood there on the canvern floor doing nothig after everybody but the drow had been defeated.
so getting a +12 or so to attack and damage to me really isn't that big of a deal. it actually fits with teh whole Crusader theme in my mind, gaining more and more power as he fights his foes his zeal driving him to succeed.

Hmm maybe change it from exorcism to judgement? where he cna 'sacrifice' his Conviction ability to heal himself for 2 points per bonus dealing 1 point of damage per bonus and causing a status effect as well?

as for theri spell casting. a Crusaders spell casting is not supposed to be the focal point of the class, like it is for a druid or wizard. I would love to put something in at a higher level (like betyween 9 and 15) but as of right now Cannot think of anything that to me is actually a worthy ability to be gained at that high of level. also.. i just relaized that I did not have X visage of the deity on his spell list.

and i totally did not write what i wanted fo angeic weapon. angelic weapons beswows upon teh crusader what is akin to the weapon Focus feat for any weapon that he is weilding.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 03:42 PM
Hmmmm...

Looking at this class and reading your responses to critiques, it would appear that you are playing a version of 3.5e with a wide variety of homerules and some degree of homebrew thrown in.

When I see a 3.5e class, I tend to assume that it could be included in any 3.5 game with no additional rules and function just fine. As this is clearly not the case for the class, I can hardly fault this crusader for what makes it different. Unfortunately, that makes it difficult to critique.

In your campaigns, what other classes do players tend to use and with what degree of alteration? With this information, we can at least tell you about how balanced this class would be in the campaigns where you'd use it.

My players play a wide variety of classes. though sorcerer tends to be a rarely played class and only 1 person so far has played a bard ( due to teh bard is the perfect Nth member of a party but we only have N-1 players mentality)

and there is no a whole lot of alteration. I banned the barbarian becuase i think that is more of a background that a full class myself, to compensate Rage is a feat (that Orcs and half orcs get fre of charge) and since my world is mainly meidival european no monks, again to compensate Flurry of blows is a feat as to me its just the melee version of Rapid Shot.

other than outsiders not beng able to get crit and none core races being banned (for the most part) as player races. fighters getting d12 for Hit Die and soem carry over from 2nd ed it is the same 3rd ed that you know and love.

Realms of Chaos
2011-08-29, 04:28 PM
My players play a wide variety of classes. though sorcerer tends to be a rarely played class and only 1 person so far has played a bard ( due to teh bard is the perfect Nth member of a party but we only have N-1 players mentality)

and there is no a whole lot of alteration. I banned the barbarian becuase i think that is more of a background that a full class myself, to compensate Rage is a feat (that Orcs and half orcs get fre of charge) and since my world is mainly meidival european no monks, again to compensate Flurry of blows is a feat as to me its just the melee version of Rapid Shot.

other than outsiders not beng able to get crit and none core races being banned (for the most part) as player races. fighters getting d12 for Hit Die and soem carry over from 2nd ed it is the same 3rd ed that you know and love.

With this in mind, whether this class will work or not depends largely on your players. This class seems about evenly matched with a casually played paladin (with better martial abilities making up for a tiny spell list).

If your players typically go for classes like Factotums, Duskblades, Clerics, Druids, Archivists, Artificers, Psions (or Erudites), Wizards, Favored Souls, anything from the ToB, and other more powerful classes, a player with this class might end up feelling somewhat left out.

If, on the other hand, your players end up using monks, samurai, truenamers, spellthieves, scouts, swashbucklers, ninjas, hexblades, unoptomized warlocks, soul knives, rogues, and other "weaker classes", this class should fit right in. If your group is super-casual (cleric agrees to be buff/heal-bot, wizard blasts things, etc) than this class can fit in even among the more powerful classes without too much difficulty.

Also, one more. You're text for Judgement, in two consecutive sentences, says both that you can change the ability as a swift action and that your choice can't be changed. Is that a mistake or does this mean that you can only change your judgement once and only once (in which case you may want to make the wording a bit clearer)?

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 04:59 PM
When the Crusader uses this ability, he must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, he can change this judgment to another type. Once made, this choice cannot be changed

I think you are referring to this line of text. I have no idea how to make the understanding of once you change a particular judgement (as a swift actin) that your choice cannot be changed.

could you perhaps be so kind as to tell me how you would word it.

and yes, You did touch on exactly what I want from the Crusader, a more offensive Paladin-esque class. With his spells I wanted them to focus around buffing himself for combat

My player base are an eclectic mix of guys. here is the typical party that I have playing

Control wizard - grease, stinking cloud, lgitter dust evard blakc tentacles etc
DMM-persist Cleric- melees as good as the fighter
Rouge/fighter Duelist - takes teh flurry fo blows feat. more rouge than fighter all about the flanking and hurting
Cleric- heal bot
Fighter - party 'tank' so sword and board.

this particual group has gotten up to 15th level so far. has a sinlge player complained about being 'left out or left behind'? No. again it may come from the fact that i play 3rd ed like 2nd with the whole 10+ encounters a day rather than teh 4. Now can the fighter do some of the crazy things and have the pure raw power of teh wizard? no. can the cleric melee just as good as teh fighter and still have his spells, yes. well at leats untill he gets his with a dispell magic spell, which at this level tends to happen in teh first couple of rounds on both sides of the party. now after encounter #7 when teh wizard is down to his last 2 spells adn teh DMM cleric is completely out. this si where the mundane guys shine as they can keep swinging their swords time after time.


most of my players though create their characters around a concept, this class was actually an old bud of mine who stoppe dplaying during 2nd ed decidd he wanted to start playing again. he wanted to be a crusader ( an old 2nd ed Kit I do bleive, it could have been a class from the charlemagne book though LOL)

For me clerics are prob the most powerful class in the gmae, I miss the old 2nd ed spheres that cleric had access too. you know so they onyl got access to certain spells that was depdenant on what your diety was in charge of, not every sinlge spell ever writtne for clerics.


sorry about my rant there. What would it take, in your opinion, to make the Crusader to be the equal of, the Warblade? In terms of power and versitility.

Gorgondantess
2011-08-29, 05:32 PM
Control wizard - grease, stinking cloud, lgitter dust evard blakc tentacles etc
DMM-persist Cleric- melees as good as the fighter
Rouge/fighter Duelist - takes teh flurry fo blows feat. more rouge than fighter all about the flanking and hurting
Cleric- heal bot
Fighter - party 'tank' so sword and board.


I lol'd. Or, well, I roflmao'd. Two tier 1 classes and 3 tier 5 classes in the same party? Wow. Just... wow. Unless the first two are bizarrely incompetent for their description... how does that even function?
*At the beginning of every combat*
Wizard: Hey, look, a kobold!
*Rogue, Healbot & sword n' board look stumble around looking for the "kobold" while the wizard sets up for the DMM-persist-er to slaughter the group of enemies behind their back in a couple of rounds*
Rogue: Dammit, we lost one again!
*Cleric quickly sweeps the corpses under a rug*
Wizard: Don't worry, guys, we'll get in a fight someday!

Actually, that would be an interesting game: a few players who optimize the crap out of their characters with a few players (intentionally, of course) make characters that look up to CWar Samurai. The optimized players try to make the latter feel like they're not utterly useless with WHATEVER MEANS POSSIBLE, while still keeping them alive of course.:smallbiggrin::smallamused:

Anyways. This class needs WAY MORE to get up to warblade level. Go ahead and give it more skillpoints, and hell, even bump the spellcasting up to, say, bard levels. Then give it a better spell list. I know you're not going for a spellcaster, so make it mainly buff spells so he just turns it on and wades into combat. From what I've seen here, spells are the answer.
Also, spellcasting, while a cool class ability, unless it's fullcasting shouldn't be the ONLY class ability for SO long. Just... SOMETHING. I donno, maybe you could check out ToB and look at Devoted Spirit maneuvers for inspiration? I... don't see why you don't just play a crusader if you want a divine melee combat that's on par with a warblade, but I'm sure you have a reason. Anyways, that right there is about as close as it gets... so the more similar you are to it, the better. For balance's sake, anyways.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 05:55 PM
You would be surprised ( and probably not live too long) if you beleive that my example party is unable to function and played in a game I DM.


the reason why I do not just say roll with the ToB crusader is. where (other than teh devoted spirit list of maneuvers) is there any ability that is an actuall divinly inspired ability? teh ToB's Crusader's smite is basically " i hit your harder" adn steely resolves is more of a 'knight' ability. (oddly enough i had a feat similar to steely resolve already homebrwed before ToB came out. though a LOT more complicated. I have to say Steely resolve is a much better concept so then i Retconned it it as teh feat itsel LOL) One could say that Devoted spirit really isn't so divinely inpsired/granted either. more of a warrior spirit inner strenght kind of thing myself, not bestwoed upon you by a diety or a group of deities.

K so, bump the casting up to include 5th level spells and start them a 3rd level. and why I wanted something that was equal to the Warblade is 3rd tier seems to be a nice tier able to hang with the big dogs really, and stay somehwta-relveant. though ASI have said before my players tend to not be tier players. so I don't have to worry about the wizard breaking the game or the cleric laughing at the fighters for failing to do his job effectively. maybe in a 'normla' D&D game where pun-puns abound and such. but such does not happen with the games i DM and have played in as a player.



I tend to play wizards like this 'yeah they are totally bad@$$es, but as soon as something walks up and smack them.. wel.. you get the picture.'

Realms of Chaos
2011-08-29, 06:44 PM
When the Crusader uses this ability, he must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, he can change this judgment to another type. Once made, this choice cannot be changed

I think you are referring to this line of text. I have no idea how to make the understanding of once you change a particular judgement (as a swift actin) that your choice cannot be changed.

...Even with your explanation, this still doesn't make a lot of sense. :smallconfused:

The second sentance implies that you can change your choice as often as you want (limited by your 1 swift action per round).

The third sentance, meanwhile, says that the second sentance is a blatant lie and that you can't change it at all.

Your explanation makes it sound like the second sentance (which allows for changes every round) is an exception for the third sentance (which doesn't allow any changes) but that would make the third sentence oddly pointless.

Is this section supposed to stop you from having 2 judgement effects active at the same time or something like that? Does it mean that you can change a judgement only once before it ends? :smallconfused:

jiriku
2011-08-29, 08:07 PM
Well, to put you in the right frame of mind, your crusader is racking up +1 to hit, to damage, or to AC as he levels up. Warblade maneuvers tend to increment either big fat +2 or +4 mods to hit or AC, or add fistfuls of d6's in bonus damage. More importantly, though, warblades get maneuvers that help them break the rules in various ways, shrugging off effects, seeing what can't be seen, traversing the supposedly impassable, striking what can't be hit, breaking what can't be broken, and blocking, moving, or attacking during other people's turns. If your crusader doesn't get "game-changer" type abilities of that nature, it will never move out of Tier 4.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 08:43 PM
When the Crusader uses this ability, he must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, he can change this judgment to another type. Once made, this choice cannot be changed
what these line sof text mean is that a Crusader can change a Judgment to another, as a swift action. Once the crusader does change from one Judgement to another He cannot change to another type of judgement again.

My explanation for this is that You only have a limited number of uses per day. this prevents soembody form say.. doing the typical OP such of limit brekaing and inifite loops. SO you can for example give youself the Destruction Judgement and during the fight find that you are no thitting so for a swift action you can change it to a Justice judgement to increase your attack. Once you have made that decision to change you cannot change again.

Jiriku

also.. what allows a Warblade to break rules. everything you have stated
"shrugging off effects, seeing what can't be seen, traversing the supposedly impassable, striking what can't be hit, breaking what can't be broken, and blocking, moving, or attacking during other people's turns" Are all things that fighters can do already in my games, well maybe not seeing the unseen without some type of magical assistance.

I guess that if Fighters cannot do that already in D&D maybe My game is a bit more homebrewed that I relaized. I tend to be more of a storytelling DM and my players tend to be more of a storytelling bunhc of people, so there is that.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 09:41 PM
CRUSADER

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Abilities|1|2|3|4|5
1|+1|+2|+0|+2|Judgement Fearless|-|-|-|-|-
2|+2|+3|+0|+3|Domain|-|-|-|-|-
3| +3| +3|+1|+3|Angelic Weapon Angelic Presence|1|-|-|-|-
4|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|2|-|-|-|-
5|+5|+4|+1|+4|Wings|2|1|-|-|-
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Holy Forge|3|2|-|-|-
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Conviction|3|2|-|-|-
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Righteous Wrath |4|3|1|-|-
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|4|3|2|-|-
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Flight Vindication|4|4|2|-|-
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Eternal Glory|4|4|3|1|-
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8||4|4|3|2|-
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||5|4|4|2|1
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus Feat|5|4|4|3|1
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9||5|4|4|3|2
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||6|5|4|4|2
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10||6|5|4|4|2
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||6|5|4|4|3
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat|7|6|4|4|3
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Repentance|7|6|5|4|3[/table]




Skills
Same as Paladin.

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4+Int mod)x4

Skill Points Each Additional Level
4+Int mod.

Hit Die
1d10

Proficiencies
Proficient in Martial, Simple, One handed, and two handed piercing, slashing and blunt Melee weapons, As well as thrown weapons. Proficient in light, medium armor, and shields except for Tower Shields

Beginning at 3rd level, a Crusader gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the Crusader spell list. A Crusader must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a Crusader must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Crusader’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Crusader’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Crusader can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the above Table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A Crusader prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though he cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A Crusader may prepare and cast any spell on the Crusader spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Up to 3rd level, a Crusader has no caster level. At 3rd level and higher, his caster level is his Crusader level -3 (minimum caster levle 1).


Spell List
1st Bless, Divine Favor,Divine Sacrifice, Grave Strike, Magic Weapon, Protection from evil, Shield of Faith, True strike

2nd Aid, Align Weapon, Consecrate, Deific vengeance, Fell The Greatest Foe, Lesser Viage of The Deity, Magic Circle against Evil, Resist Energy, Zeal

3rd Bladestorm, Demon Dirge, Devil Blight, Magic Weapon, Greater, Prayer, Righteous Fury

4th Divine Agility, Favor of The Martyr, Hallow, Holy Sword, Righteous Might

5th Draconic Might, Indomitability, Righteous Wrath of The Faithful, Visage of The Deity


Special Abilities
Judgment {Su}: At 1st level, a Crusader can pronounce judgment upon his foes as a swift action Starting when the judgment is made, the Crusader receives a bonus or special ability based on the type of judgment made.
At 1st level, a Crusader can use this ability once per day. At every fifth level (twice at 5th, 3 times at 10th), the Crusader can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The Crusader must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability ends.
When the Crusader uses this ability, he must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, he can change this judgment to another type. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
Destruction: The Crusader is filled with divine wrath, gaining a +1 sacred bonus on all weapon damage rolls for every three Crusader levels he possesses.
Justice: This judgment spurs the Crusader to seek justice, granting a +1 sacred bonus on all attack rolls for every four levels she possesses. At 10th level, this bonus is doubled on all attack rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Protection: The Crusader is surrounded by a protective aura, granting a +1 sacred bonus to AC for every four Crusader levels he possesses.
Vigor: The Crusader finds himself filled with energy, gaining fasting healing 1 for every five Crusader levels he possesses. Vigor last an additional 2 rounds after combat has ended.

Fearless{Ex}: The Crusader gains a +1 Competance bonus per Crusader level to saves against fear and terror effects. At 5th level He becomes immune to fear and his bonus to saves stops progressing. He still gains a +5 competance bonus to Terror effects.

Domain: At 2nd level a Crusader gain access to one of the following domains. Courage, Good, Glory, Retribution, or Strength. If the Crusader selects the Glory Domain, he attains the ability to turn undead once per day as a cleric 4 levels below him (minimum first level). As the crusader is not able to cast spells untill 3rd level, he effectively just gains the domain power untill he gaisn spell casting ability.

Wings{Ex}: At 5st level the Crusader is granted wings, but can not use them to fly as of yet. He may use them to glide as if subject to a feather fall spell.

Angelic Weapon{Ex}: At 3rd level the Crusader weilds any equipped weapon as if he has gained the Weapon Focus feat for that particular weapon.

Flight{Ex}: At 10th level a Crusader gains flight with her wings. He is able to fly up to double his speed with average maneuverability, provided he is not medium or heavier encumbered

Conviction{Ex}: at 7th Level a Crusader gains a Cumulative +1 to attack and damage for every successful attack he lands. These bonuses are lost if combat ends, if the Crusader misses an attack Or goes 1 round without attacking.

Angelic Presence{Su}: At 3rd level an Crusader gains this presence. Any evil outsider within 5 ft of her gets a -3 morale penalty to attacks . A will save at DC 10+ half the Crusader’s Class level + Cha modifier to overcome.

Holy Forge{Ex}: at 6th level a Crusader can score critical hits against Undead, devils, demons and daemons.

Vindication{Su}: at 10th level a Crusader can choose to sacrifice his cumulative bonus from Conviction, healing himself for 2 points per Conviction bonus as well as dealing 1 point of damage per bonus of Conviction to an opponent with a successful touch attack as well as making the opponent Blinded and Flat-footed. These Conditions only last 1 round. Vindication is an attack action and does not grant a new conviction bonus.

Righteous Wrath{Ex}:At 8th level a Crusader's Weapon gains one of the following elemental weapon qualities: flaming, frost, or shock.

Eternal Glory{Ex}: At 11th level a Crusader cannot die while oppoents are still alive (or un-alive) and concious. All attacks, spells, or effects that would render the Crusader unconcious or dead instead reduce him to 1 HP no further. Everytime such an effect would do so, the Crusader must make a fortitude save of 10+ what your negative hit points would be (so you are hit with a lightnng bolt that did 57 damage, you are at 44 HP so would you have to make a save at DC 10+13 -as you would at -13 if the attack went through) Failing a save kills you instantly . A crusader can only make 2 of these saves in any given encounter.

Repentance{Su}: At 20th level A crusader's first succesful attack judges the target, allowing them to witness their own misdeeds and suffer for them. Causing them to suffer an additional 1d6 Holy Damage for every 2 Crusader levels, and Stuns them for 1 full round, even if the target is normally immune to stuns. A will save at DC 15+ half the Crusader’s Class level + Cha modifier halves to damage and negates the stun. Repentance ignores Anti-magic effects.

Kenneth
2011-08-29, 09:42 PM
Ok, the above is Crusader 2.0 with some added abilities and better spell progression. Is this more balanced than the previous incarnation?

jiriku
2011-08-30, 03:31 PM
also.. what allows a Warblade to break rules. everything you have stated "shrugging off effects, seeing what can't be seen, traversing the supposedly impassable, striking what can't be hit, breaking what can't be broken, and blocking, moving, or attacking during other people's turns" Are all things that fighters can do already in my games, well maybe not seeing the unseen without some type of magical assistance.

I guess that if Fighters cannot do that already in D&D maybe My game is a bit more homebrewed that I realized. I tend to be more of a storytelling DM and my players tend to be more of a storytelling bunch of people, so there is that.

Well, for example, suppose a fighter and a warblade are both hit with ray of enfeeblement. The fighter is stuck with the Strength penalty, but the warblade can use the Iron Heart Surge maneuver to remove it. Suppose they face an opponent with ungodly high AC. The fighter just has to swing a lot and hope for a lucky die roll. The warblade can use the Emerald Razor maneuver to attack with a melee touch attack. Imagine a fighter and warblade are facing a thick adamantine door. With its hardness 20, the fighter will have a difficult time breaking it down (unless he has a very high-damage build), but the warblade can use the Mountain Hammer maneuver to deal extra damage and ignore hardness. Likewise, warblades gain maneuvers that allow them to attack, defend or move as an immediate action, during an opponent's turn. Fighters don't generally get abilities that let them take immediate actions.

Now, if you're the sort to play cinematically and only rely on the rules occasionally, fighters probably do much more in your games. Be aware, though, that most of the people on this board view the rules as a strict description of what characters can or cannot do.


On an unrelated note:
Personally, I think there wouldn't be anything problematic about allowing a player to switch his Judgment repeatedly if the ability was added later, perhaps to fill one of those dead levels that Morph Bark was concerned about. At that point, you've got wizards polymorphing into things that give them like 10 attacks a round or +20 AC or 20+ Str, Dex, and Con or all of those things at once and more besides -- the poor crusader may need a little extra something to help him keep up.


Looking at your Crusader 2.0:
Is it an attack action to use Vindication, or a standard action? Does a successful Vindication touch attack also grant a +1 Conviction bonus? Other than that and the missing ability descriptors (Ex, Su, or Sp), I'd say you have everything you need to make it playable.

I would suggest setting caster level to class level -2, rather than half class level. Spells like divine favor, resist energy, greater magic weapon and others are heavily dependent on caster level for their effectiveness, and as the crusader's caster level falls further and further behind that of his full-casting allies, those spells will become more and more worthless to the group.

Kenneth
2011-08-30, 05:14 PM
Yeah When ToB battle came out i was liek ' hur.." Why didn't Wizards make fighters do this stuff from the beginning?" Coming form a 1st and 2nd ed background where clerics, wizards and even more so druid have limitation placed on them and being removed with 3rd ed. I had to homebrew a bunch of stuff to make the rogue, paladin, and fighter especially be able to not seem 'worthless' why be a fighter when you can be a druid and have a wolf thats better than a fighter (with buffs of course) and oh you can wildshape into a lion or velicoraptor and be even better at melee. Oh and you have all you spells.. that you can cast in your animal form...


id say half of all the ToB stuff is very similar to feats that I had created with my players input, for the classes. iron Heart surge is a good example. I think my feat was called 2nd wind and did the whole remove status effects and also healed you for a certain amount.
I understand that playing by the rules and number cruncing to get some crazy builds si how most people play. But as i said my groups tend to be more into teh stroy of a game than seeing if they can make Pun-Pun, or whatever that gnome shadocaster is called. As one of my players said " shouldn't a fighter be better at straight up fighting than any class in the game, i mean it is in his damn name!" to which I have to agree .

my fod is cooking but I'll be back later to put teh final touches on teh crusader and list the ability descriptors.
though Angelic weapon comes froma supernatual force. but I do not want teh crusader to lose that ability when he steps inside an anti magic shell. would it hurt to make it extraordinary? Most of teh abilities are supernatural though with a slight tist (repenatce will ignore spell resistance)

Jade Dragon
2011-08-30, 05:32 PM
But as i said my groups tend to be more into teh stroy of a game than seeing if they can make Pun-Pun, or whatever that gnome shadocaster is called.

It appears you really don't know anything about Theoretical Op. It's theoretical for a reason, and you aren't even getting your builds right (Pun-Pun a gnome shadowcaster?).

Kenneth
2011-08-30, 07:27 PM
I do know the difference between Theoretical optimization and practical optimization. the difference is it seems that most do teh whole RAW thing and dislika a DM telling a player No. so one could actually create Pun-Pun. and I know who Pun-Pun is teh kobold who due to a crap low DC to summon pazuzu becomes teh most powerful being in existance. I just do not remmber teh name of the gnomeish shadowcaster build though.

But I digress. SOme peopel enjoy the number crucnhin that comes with 3rd ed, like getting their melee to do 250 dmg an attack by lvl 10 ( i still have no idea on how they do that, becuase for teh life of me I cannot replicate it) Others tend to enjoy playing a charcater in an epic story ( not the 3rd ed def of epic, the 'official' definiton of epic, I.E. on a grand scope of things)

jiriku
2011-08-30, 08:55 PM
Yeah When ToB battle came out i was liek ' hur.." Why didn't Wizards make fighters do this stuff from the beginning?" Coming form a 1st and 2nd ed background where clerics, wizards and even more so druid have limitation placed on them and being removed with 3rd ed. I had to homebrew a bunch of stuff to make the rogue, paladin, and fighter especially be able to not seem 'worthless' why be a fighter when you can be a druid and have a wolf thats better than a fighter (with buffs of course) and oh you can wildshape into a lion or velicoraptor and be even better at melee. Oh and you have all you spells.. that you can cast in your animal form...

Yeah, I know, right? It's like they took everything that made spellcasters have to sweat, and threw it out the window, and then took everything that made the martial guys work well, and threw that out the window too. There's a lot of good stuff sitting right outside that window. :smallbiggrin:



id say half of all the ToB stuff is very similar to feats that I had created with my players input, for the classes. iron Heart surge is a good example. I think my feat was called 2nd wind and did the whole remove status effects and also healed you for a certain amount.
I understand that playing by the rules and number cruncing to get some crazy builds si how most people play. But as i said my groups tend to be more into teh stroy of a game than seeing if they can make Pun-Pun, or whatever that gnome shadocaster is called. As one of my players said " shouldn't a fighter be better at straight up fighting than any class in the game, i mean it is in his damn name!" to which I have to agree .

Good move! I'm afraid it means you won't get a whole lot of useful game balance advice here, since we can't measure the impact of all your houserules. But we can still give useful editing advice and be a sounding board for your ideas.


though Angelic weapon comes froma supernatual force. but I do not want teh crusader to lose that ability when he steps inside an anti magic shell. would it hurt to make it extraordinary? Most of teh abilities are supernatural though with a slight tist (repenatce will ignore spell resistance)

Extraordinary is fine. For me, extraordinary is kind of the default choice. I usually only use supernatural if something obviously breaks the laws of physics, like teleporting or flying without wings. Supernatural abilities already ignore spell resistance, so you're good there.

Kenneth
2011-08-30, 09:19 PM
Woo! man i mis read rules all the time, (it was just up untill a couple of months ago that I relaized i had been misreading the dual wielding rules...)

now I have to re edit Repentance so it can work in an antimagic zone. think of repentance like GHost Rider's Pennance stare. you see all the bad you have done. and it hurts.. alot.

actually taking a closer look at the warblade as opposed to my fighter. they are honestly in terms of power and 'laws of phsycia's breaking abilites almost identical. the fighters gets some of teh warblade stuff in the form of feats and some in teh forms of class abilities. The diamond mind save counters and most of the stances are level dependant abilities I gave the fighter. maybe I guess now that is why when the ToB came out, most people still played my fighter. the biggest difference being teh Warblade gets intelligence to a lot of things. and the abilities ( maneuvers) are better readily used in any given situation.

I have been toying with the Idea of going back to the old 2nd ed different EXP tables to create a semblance of balance. I know WoTC went to a standard EXP table becuase all 'classes are equal in terms of balance in abilites, action, versatility, and everything else' wich anybody looking at ut would go " uh.. sure /roll druid"
PS yes I think druids are the class that from 2nd to 3rd got teh BIGGEST buff out of all the classes, though when I first read the sorcere i was liek ' WHAT spontaneous casting OMG THAT is GONNA BREAK THE GAME!, then i calmed down and say that cleric, druids and wizard already broke the game, and the sorcerer is mor elike a poor man's wizard

jiriku
2011-08-31, 09:22 AM
Yeah. In 3.5, options are king -- the more options you have, the more powerful you are. It's options that put cleric, druid, and wizard at the top of the stack, and it's lack of options that put samurai and monk at the bottom.

Still, what you've built for the crusader should produce a very solid damage-dealing machine who has the flexibility to adapt his tactics somewhat in combat and has one or two options to fall back on outside of combat. He'll never compete with the Big 3, but since you've proven willing to develop new rules for weaker classes, I'm sure that you'll be able to make adjustments to smooth things over if any rough spots expose themselves during play.

Kenneth
2011-08-31, 03:59 PM
Cool, yeah what I want from the crusader is a frontline fighter, a divine fighter to be more precise that is all about bringing the pain to evil nd shutting down corruption and such. I want teh Crusader to be able to go toe 2 toe with just about anything in melee and be somewhat respectable, and completely dominant when it comes to melee evil outsiders and undead.


and having spent most of the day reading through ToB and my feats and granted abilities i gave fighters and rogues. The fighter is in my games what the warblade in in 3rd, while you can think of the rogue as a sworsage who just uses the shadow hand discipline with a smidgen of diamond mind tossed in.