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View Full Version : Ways V could beat Xykon in a few levels?



MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-02, 10:03 PM
I realise it's unlikely this is going to happen, but say V grows a few levels to level 17, what are some plausible scenarios in which V could beat Xykon by himself.

I was thinking about whether there's really any way Xykon is likely to be able to get through a prismatic sphere, based on abilities he's actually shown to have. It seems pretty unlikely unless his abilities and level get revised upwards again... could V just cast that, then take pot shots at Xykon as he passes in and out of it? Or is that just a useless delay tactic?

Disjunction would kill most of Xykon's magical item defences, then V could wail on him with high level evoking, provided V goes in with enough buffs and items to survive a few rounds.

ORione
2011-09-02, 10:11 PM
Maybe V could find a way to lease V's soul again.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-02, 10:17 PM
I realise it's unlikely this is going to happen, but say V grows a few levels to level 17, what are some plausible scenarios in which V could beat Xykon by himself.

Level 17? VERY unlikely. Keep in mind Xykon is an epic level. He also has the lich template stacked onto of that. Also, Xykon's already beat an epic level wizard, and that was awhile ago. He's sure to be more powerful now.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-02, 10:22 PM
Let's not overstate Xykon's abilities here. I already provided a very in depth analysis on another thread about how the "Ancient" Black Dragon would stomp him. Heck, even Durkon, Belkar and Roy should be able to beat him if Durkon makes an Anti-Magic field, and they get to him before he can teleport out of it... they'll just wail on him, while Xykon can do relatively little in retaliation... as far as Epic's go, Xykon's one of the most horribly optimized (even more so than alot of the order is).

Big names like Dorukan and Lirian job to Xykon, same with spliced V. That's not evidence of anything but plot. All I'm asking is to come up with scenarios where V wins.

VanBuren
2011-09-02, 10:25 PM
Let's not overstate Xykon's abilities here. I already provided a very in depth analysis on another thread about how the Ancient Black Dragon would stomp him. Heck, even Durkon, Belkar and Roy should be able to beat him if Durkon makes an Anti-Magic field, and they get to him before he can teleport out of it... they'll just wail on him, while Xykon can do relatively little in retaliation... as far as Epic's go, Xykon's one of the most horribly optimized (even more so than alot of the order is).

Big names like Dorukan and Lirian job to Xykon, same with spliced V. That's not evidence of anything but plot. All I'm asking is to come up with scenarios where V wins.

By your own argument, V wins when the plot demands it.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-02, 10:39 PM
I'm asking more about objective ways V could win, using cunning and prep, not "I get to use 6 energy drains in a row while my opponent Dorukan stands there like a moron". You know, within the rules of the game.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-02, 11:23 PM
as far as Epic's go, Xykon's one of the most horribly optimized (even more so than alot of the order is).

Oh, I strongly disagree:

-Belkar: ranger/barbarian combo as a halfling that maxes out his strength with a wisdom penalty
-Roy: straight up fighter with decent cha, int, and wis that refuses to join a class that'll let him take advantage of these stats, the only way he's managed to stay so component is Rich constantly throws him powerful magic items
-Durkon and V: no PrC; as a caster there are a ton that let you advance in spells and give you other stuff

I mean at leas Xykon took up a template.:smallwink:


Big names like Dorukan and Lirian job to Xykon, same with spliced V. That's not evidence of anything but plot. All I'm asking is to come up with scenarios where V wins.

Agree with VanBuren on this: V wins when the plot demands it.

Steward
2011-09-02, 11:38 PM
Maybe V could find a way to lease V's soul again.

Would that help? I remember Xykon or Redcloak saying that basically all it took was for V to fail a Concentration check or something for all the power to vanish. I actually think V + all 3 soul splices is more powerful than Xykon, but s/he can't realistically hold onto them for the length of time it would take to win a pitched battle.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 12:26 AM
Oh, don't get me wrong, alot of the order is horribly unoptimised (though V and Durkon aren't that bad, and Elan is well optimised). However Xykon is pretty bad too. Sure, he's awesome (owing to the sheer amount of levels he has, and due to being a lich, and having lots of magic items). However his spell selection sucks. I mean, it's awful.

He has spells that overlap. Who learns invisibility and greater invisibility for example as a Sorcerer? He has some really sucktastic spells like Symbol of Pain, Ghost Form, and Soul Bind (those things are just a ridiculous use of spell slots for that level, even Symbol of Insanity is pretty ridiculous, except for that plot driven use). Sure, ghost form is useful... but for an 8th level spell slot? Way too expensive, especially when he only gets 3 of those things! His top level spells aren't very impressive either. Energy Drain is portrayed as being awesome, but is in fact easily stoppable. Soul Bind is useful only after you're beaten someone, heck even Meteor Swarm isn't the best choice in light of all the other blasting spells he has (how many blasting spells is it sensible to take as a sorcerer? He'd have been 100 times better off becoming an Archmage surely, and just keeping a few blast spells).

And apparently this ****er has 12th level spell slots, which only makes his choice of 9th level spells even more unforgivable since you can't do much of anything with most of his 7th to 9th level spells as "maximised" versions, it's so sub-optimal it's not even funny (maximised ghost form:smallconfused: maximised mass hold person:smallfrown: maximised Symbol of Insanity :smallsigh:). His epic spells aren't exactly great either, there's nothing to overcome basic problems that attack Epics, like an Anti-Magic Field, heck it seems like he can't even stop 9th level spells like Prismatic Sphere. Is Superb Dispelling even better than Disjunction? It sure doesn't seem like it, and he blew an Epic slot for it!

LudiDrizzt
2011-09-03, 01:03 AM
Let's not overstate Xykon's abilities here. I already provided a very in depth analysis on another thread about how the "Ancient" Black Dragon would stomp him. Heck, even Durkon, Belkar and Roy should be able to beat him if Durkon makes an Anti-Magic field, and they get to him before he can teleport out of it... they'll just wail on him, while Xykon can do relatively little in retaliation... as far as Epic's go, Xykon's one of the most horribly optimized (even more so than alot of the order is).

Big names like Dorukan and Lirian job to Xykon, same with spliced V. That's not evidence of anything but plot. All I'm asking is to come up with scenarios where V wins.

I saw that thread. You didn't prove a goddamn thing.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 01:08 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212381&page=3
There's the thread. Explain to me how Xykon beats the Dragon.

Ashadar
2011-09-03, 04:01 AM
Energy Drain is portrayed as being awesome, but is in fact easily stoppable.

I've wondered about this myself. Aren't there items to grant immunity against this sort of thing? Isn't Dorukan a very old and learned wizard? When I brought the argument long ago that Haerta should have had an epic spell designed to defend against energy drain, since she'd know best about the dangers this spell poses, everyone jumped me and said she wouldn't need to because it's easy to defend against it with items.

So how come Dorukan doesn't have these items then? Was he so lucky that he didn't get energy drained in his entire life? Did he always rely on a divine caster for protection? Was he really so arrogant and stupid that he overlooked this issue completely?

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 04:09 AM
I've wondered about this myself. Aren't there items to grant immunity against this sort of thing? Isn't Dorukan a very old and learned wizard? When I brought the argument long ago that Haerta should have had an epic spell designed to defend against energy drain, since she'd know best about the dangers this spell poses, everyone jumped me and said she wouldn't need to because it's easy to defend against it with items

This is a world where it's apparently not common knowledge, even to adventurers, that Liches have phylacteries.

Talvereaux
2011-09-03, 04:59 AM
I've wondered about this myself. Aren't there items to grant immunity against this sort of thing? Isn't Dorukan a very old and learned wizard? When I brought the argument long ago that Haerta should have had an epic spell designed to defend against energy drain, since she'd know best about the dangers this spell poses, everyone jumped me and said she wouldn't need to because it's easy to defend against it with items.

So how come Dorukan doesn't have these items then? Was he so lucky that he didn't get energy drained in his entire life? Did he always rely on a divine caster for protection? Was he really so arrogant and stupid that he overlooked this issue completely?

Keep in mind the insinuation is most people in the OOTS-verse are mid-leveled at best, and only the most extraordinary gentlemen ever reach the higher levels. For that reason, I'm willing to buy that a 9th level Necromancy spell is such a rare and specific threat that no wizard would expect to face it at all, let alone prepare to be spammed by it.

Also, fully minmaxed characters are boring to read about. Not a lot of meaningful conflict comes from the characters being fully prepared for every possible situation.

VanBuren
2011-09-03, 05:22 AM
This is a world where it's apparently not common knowledge, even to adventurers, that Liches have phylacteries.

How common is that bit of lore, really? I mean, I know it's something everyone knows out of game, but how many PCs would realistically be expected to know that, and how would they know it?

Andre
2011-09-03, 05:51 AM
Sure, how hard could it be? A couple of maximised Fireballs, maybe a quickened Lightning Bolt and Xykon's toast. He doesn't even have a familiar! :smallbiggrin:

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 06:12 AM
How common is that bit of lore, really? I mean, I know it's something everyone knows out of game, but how many PCs would realistically be expected to know that, and how would they know it?

It's not common at all, to be honest, or at least shouldn't be, as there are only a few ways to recognize a phylactery: Identify, Analyze Dweomer, or a DC 25 Knowledge (Arcana) check.

The fact that V clearly blew that check indicates that she isn't entirely knowledgeable about either Lichdom or Arcana in general.

Thanatosia
2011-09-03, 06:41 AM
Sure, how hard could it be? A couple of maximised Fireballs, maybe a quickened Lightning Bolt and Xykon's toast. He doesn't even have a familiar!
Not sure if serious....

On offchange you are, I'd like to remind you that Xykon has an item on his person that renders him immune to fire damage, and as a LIch he's naturally immune to Lightning.... both facts clearly demonstrated in V's last battle with Xykon.



As to the OP... no. The only way V has any chance to defeat Xykon is power of plot. I'm not even sure how you are suggesting otherwise with a strait face... you acknowledge the fact that Xykon has lv12 spells. Do you have any idea how powerful you have to be to have lv12 spells? You have to be a lv27 character at minimum. How is a lv17 V supposed to beat a Lv27 Sorceror with the Lich Template added on. Remember, thanks to the Lich Template, X has way more Hps per level then V (d12s instead of d4s), and he has 10 more levels - so even ignoring X's various outright immunities, any blasting contest would go his way in a vastly one-sided manner.... and given V's Evocation specialization, Blasting Contests are his best approach!

This thread is silly, V is vastly outmatched, and to suggest a few more levels will suddenly change that when X has probably 12 levels on him, pluss the power of the Lich Template, is just absurd.

V himself knows it's beyond absurd, the only reason he even thought to try it in the first place is because he had the power of 3 epic casters chained to him, a power he both overestimated and massively misused. If V could somehow get the soulsplices back and approach the fight more intelligently, then maybe he could pull something off... but that's just not what we are discussing here.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 06:44 AM
Also don't forget that even in an anti-magic field Xykon would rip V to shreds with his bare (or possibly even his bear) hands.

Morty
2011-09-03, 06:55 AM
However Xykon ends up being defeated, it won't be in an optimized casting slugfest. Maybe the whole Order will bring him down via teamwork. Maybe he will be undone by his own actions. Maybe Redcloak will betray him at a crucial moment giving his enemies an opening. Most likely, something we can't possibly predict right now will happen. But I'm quite confident it won't be because whoever deals the final blow optimized his spells properly.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:30 AM
This thread isn't about predicting what is going to happen, or even suggesting it is likely. It's about plausible ways V could win under the rules.

Also, pretty sure Antimagic Field negates alot of natural abilities. Also, nobody is suggesting V casts AMF to win, though Durkon surely could, then he, Roy and Belkar charge and annihilate Xykon.


Xykon has lv12 spells. Do you have any idea how powerful you have to be to have lv12 spells? You have to be a lv27 character at minimum. How is a lv17 V supposed to beat a Lv27 Sorceror with the Lich Template added on.
Xykon is horribly unoptimised though... I mean, let's say V casts Prismatic Sphere... based on what we've seen so far, Xykon can't do S#$% in response, except stand there and scratch his skull. It's not exactly the most inventive strategy (I'm sure others here could come up with much better ones), but the fact a 9th level spell like this basically stumps Xykon effortlessly is pretty telling as to how badly optimised he is. The only reason it's a challenge to think up ways for V to win is because he doesn't have Conjuration... with that, a level 17 Wizard should be able to win pretty easily.

AgentofOdd
2011-09-03, 08:14 AM
From the look of things, Xykon should be able to easily "defeat" the sphere by flying to a safe distance, and either wait for either the spell to end, or for V to get impatient. This does assume Xykon knows about the spell, but it's not that unreasonable to assume an epic caster at the very least knows about all the basic level 1-9 spells.

I dunno, maybe V could cast Dimensional Anchor, then Forcecage on Xykon, then shake the result REALLY hard? Might help if one could pop in some anti undead weapons into the cube.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-03, 09:50 AM
He doesn't even have a familiar! :smallbiggrin:

Sure he does.:smallwink: His name is Red Cloak.

rbetieh
2011-09-03, 10:20 AM
Easy...Roys Dad will be soulspliced into V. Now V wins ;-)

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 10:22 AM
Easy...Roys Dad will be soulspliced into V. Now V wins ;-)

If V with three epic level casters couldn't beat Xykon, how is she supposed to do it with a high-level illusionist?

rbetieh
2011-09-03, 10:26 AM
If V with three epic level casters couldn't beat Xykon, how is she supposed to do it with a high-level illusionist?

V didnt lose to Xykon, V lost to team evil. Re-read and not the contributions of Hobgoblin, Redcloak, and Tsukiko. Heck, even the starting defense ward wasn't xykons idea. With more level-headed and less "kill kill kill" ghost helping, V might actually use enough strategy to remove the other pieces on the board first.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 10:28 AM
And then she'd have to fight an epic Lich with a cranky old illusionist soulbound to her. Even with the gift of lateral thinking V has recently acquired, she wouldn't have enough raw power to grind Xykon into bony dust. Unfortunately.

Thanatosia
2011-09-03, 10:33 AM
Xykon is horribly unoptimised though... I mean, let's say V casts Prismatic Sphere... based on what we've seen so far, Xykon can't do S#$% in response, except stand there and scratch his skull. It's not exactly the most inventive strategy (I'm sure others here could come up with much better ones), but the fact a 9th level spell like this basically stumps Xykon effortlessly is pretty telling as to how badly optimised he is. The only reason it's a challenge to think up ways for V to win is because he doesn't have Conjuration... with that, a level 17 Wizard should be able to win pretty easily.
I dunno where you keep getting this idea that Xykon is horribly unoptimized just cuz his spell list isn't perfect. First, there's a lot we dont' know about his spell list... look at o'chuls list: 5th level: Unknown, 6th level: Unknown x2, 8th level: unknown... he could well have answers we just don't know about yet.

As to your thing about him being stumped by Prismatic SPhere... um, considering we don't even know many of Xykon's spell selections, how could you even begin to make such an assertion? But we do know Xykon has Teleport in his spell list, which I believe can be used as one way to circumvent it already since I dont see anything in the SRD description of Prismatic sphere or wall on it blocking extraplanar travel.

Also, you seem to be implying that V could contain X in a prismatic Sphere, but if you actually look it up, PS is centered on the caster... so at best it's a way for V to defend himself from X's attacks, unless you think it's a good idea for V to catch himself inside a sphere with X - and that seems like an absolutely horrible idea to me.

I just can't understand your apperant belief that a 17th level wizard is going to have ANY reasonable way of killing a 27th level lich just based off a very limited understanding of the lich's spell list - but hell, you are outright stating that the ONLY reason it's not EASY for a lv17 wizard to beat a lv27 Lich is because he barred himself from conjuration - just /boggle at your thinking and assumptions. 27th level characters eat 17th level characters for breakfast, optimized or no, thats just what that many levels tend to do in an RPG.

LudiDrizzt
2011-09-03, 10:37 AM
Your entire argument hinged on the fact that you swore up-and-down that the dragon was like 2 age categories older than the author depicted it as being.

I'm not gonna continue this, because Rich even thought your argument was so pointless that locking the topic was preferable.

Needless to say, based on Xykon's actions before Darth V attacked, his estimated level was in the neighborhood of 21 or 22. Darth V couldn't have known he had access to 12th level spells when he attacked, and god knows what else Xykon is sitting on, in the event of an emergency.

Besides, he's an ECL 31+ Lich with Contingency and, I believe, Celerity. V's kinda screwed.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-03, 10:56 AM
This thread isn't about predicting what is going to happen, or even suggesting it is likely. It's about plausible ways V could win under the rules.

Also, pretty sure Antimagic Field negates alot of natural abilities. Also, nobody is suggesting V casts AMF to win, though Durkon surely could, then he, Roy and Belkar charge and annihilate Xykon.


Xykon is horribly unoptimised though... I mean, let's say V casts Prismatic Sphere... based on what we've seen so far, Xykon can't do S#$% in response, except stand there and scratch his skull. It's not exactly the most inventive strategy (I'm sure others here could come up with much better ones), but the fact a 9th level spell like this basically stumps Xykon effortlessly is pretty telling as to how badly optimised he is. The only reason it's a challenge to think up ways for V to win is because he doesn't have Conjuration... with that, a level 17 Wizard should be able to win pretty easily.

Plausible ways V could beat Xykon while not being epic...:smallconfused: I guess if Xykon rolled a one. On everything. It might happen. Maybe.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 10:58 AM
Plausible ways V could beat Xykon while not being epic...:smallconfused: I guess if Xykon rolled a one. On everything. It might happen. Maybe.

Really, though, what's to stop V from losing initiative (which she will) and then blowing the first saving throw hits her with?

In the interests of fairness, let's assume Xykon rolled for his hit points as well and that on every hit die, he also rolled a 1. And also his stat array is terrible.

stabbitty death
2011-09-03, 10:59 AM
From the look of things, Xykon should be able to easily "defeat" the sphere by flying to a safe distance, and either wait for either the spell to end, or for V to get impatient. This does assume Xykon knows about the spell, but it's not that unreasonable to assume an epic caster at the very least knows about all the basic level 1-9 spells.

I dunno, maybe V could cast Dimensional Anchor, then Forcecage on Xykon, then shake the result REALLY hard? Might help if one could pop in some anti undead weapons into the cube.

or,you know for x to get impatient.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-03, 11:02 AM
V didnt lose to Xykon, V lost to team evil. Re-read and not the contributions of Hobgoblin, Redcloak, and Tsukiko. Heck, even the starting defense ward wasn't xykons idea. With more level-headed and less "kill kill kill" ghost helping, V might actually use enough strategy to remove the other pieces on the board first.

What makes you think V's gonna be in a position to attack Xykon alone or that he won't get the rest of Team Evil to help?

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-03, 11:03 AM
What makes you think V's gonna be in a position to attack Xykon alone or that he won't get the rest of Team Evil to help?

Magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSf9aEETnvE). Duh. :smallwink: Or maybe somehow Xykon killed Recloak and Tsukiko and all the goblins! What? It makes sense here..

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 11:06 AM
Magic. Duh. :smallwink: Or maybe somehow Xykon killed Recloak and Tsukiko and all the goblins! What? It makes sense here..

If that were the case then the best time for V to attack would be right after Xykon blew all of his spell slots on Redcloak, Tsukiko, and the goblins.

Querzis
2011-09-03, 11:26 AM
Yeah, I'm also gonna go with :ęxykon roll 1 on everything while V always roll 20Ľ. I have seen some utterly ridiculous example of min-maxed ębatman wizardĽ around here but this one just beat them all. Theres is no conceivable way for V to beat Xykon alone at level 17. Between Roy uber sword and Durkon being a cleric (which is always good against necromancer) it definitly could be possible for the entire Order to win against Xykon at level 17 though but even that really wont be easy.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-03, 11:34 AM
If that were the case then the best time for V to attack would be right after Xykon blew all of his spell slots on Redcloak, Tsukiko, and the goblins.

He still has the MitD.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-03, 11:36 AM
He still has the MitD.

But the MitD is actually V from the future come to punish himself in the past after getting the "with your plot powers combined, I am Captain Plot-Power" template. :smalltongue:

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 11:38 AM
He still has the MitD.

Oh, good point. Xykon wouldn't have to blow any spells per day on Redcloak [SoD Spoilers] because the MitD would have eaten him [/SoD Spoilers].

Andre
2011-09-03, 11:40 AM
Not sure if serious....

Sorry, I forgot to mention the Quickened Magic Missile that would finish Xykon off on round 2. :smallsmile:

Really, let us be honest. This is a no contest.
Xykon is horribly unoptimized while V, on the other hand, is a top tier wizard due to being an Elf who has barred Conjuration to become an Evoker with many direct damage, reflex-half, SR: yes spells. I dare any of you to build something better.

My apologies, but I am entitled to have fun every now and then. As someone said already, this is a comic, and characters win when the plot demands it be it luck or divine thingamajjig and that's about it.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-03, 12:09 PM
But the MitD is actually V from the future come to punish himself in the past after getting the "with your plot powers combined, I am Captain Plot-Power" template. :smalltongue:

Captain Plot-Power: worse than Captain America, but still better than Captain Planet.

rbetieh
2011-09-03, 12:11 PM
Silly question, because its been years since I've played and dont have the books. What happens if you cast disjunction on xykons phylactery?

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 12:18 PM
Silly question, because its been years since I've played and dont have the books. What happens if you cast disjunction on xykons phylactery?

I can't recall any rules on the matter, so it probably gets to make the requisite Magic Item will save, except using Xykon's bonus.

137ben
2011-09-03, 04:40 PM
So, are we assuming that V has access to every spell in the game...
But Xykon only has access to the spells we've seen him cast? Of course your "analysis" results in V winning, you've made inconsistent assumptions. Unless, of course, you have some evidence that we've already seen Xykon cast every spell that he has (which is impossible, since we haven't seen him cast enough spells). Until and unless we see his entire spell list, you can't just assume that you know all of his abilities. Xykon is also capable of developing his own epic spells (not just the ones you've seen him cast). Unless he's really really stupid, he would have some way of overcoming an anti-magic field (as said in the dragon vs. Xykon debate), and be able to overcome a prismatic sphere (mordakain's disjunction, or an epic spell, or just use wands to bring it down the prismatic sphere. Really, a sorcerer without wands for utility purposes is pathetic). Oh, and V can't cast spells through prismatic sphere.


What happens if you cast disjunction on xykons phylactery?
Unknown, because it has unspecified spells cast on it, which may or may not be immune to mordakain's disjunction. It's pretty easy to craft an epic spell which is immune to disjunction, particularly at such a high level. We just can't say.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 05:01 PM
V really can't, since both V and X are more or less blow em up spellcasters, there is no way that a level 17 wizard can take an epic lich in a duel. Now if V had some friends with, Xykon didn't have any minions, and V whacked him with an Anti-Magic field, and Xykon didn't have a way to counter, V could do it. That's a lot of if's though.

Incom
2011-09-03, 05:22 PM
Q: How can V defeat an undead that horribly out-powers him?
A: Fenix Down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html)
;)

VanBuren
2011-09-03, 05:58 PM
V really can't, since both V and X are more or less blow em up spellcasters, there is no way that a level 17 wizard can take an epic lich in a duel. Now if V had some friends with, Xykon didn't have any minions, and V whacked him with an Anti-Magic field, and Xykon didn't have a way to counter, V could do it. That's a lot of if's though.

And really, isn't a Sorcerer a better Nuker than a Wizard? I mean, if you're going to sacrifice versatility in the first place...

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 06:44 PM
And really, isn't a Sorcerer a better Nuker than a Wizard? I mean, if you're going to sacrifice versatility in the first place...

If you want to play a caster that does nothing but blow stuff up, Warmage from Complete Arcane is your best bet. But yes, from the core rule book someone who wants to play just nuker would likely have more fun with a sorcerer then a wizard.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:23 PM
Your entire argument hinged on the fact that you swore up-and-down that the dragon was like 2 age categories older than the author depicted it as being.


No.

The argument that the Black Dragon was not in the "Ancient" Category is wholly separate to the argument Xykon loses. Regardless of whether it's accurate, Xykon loses, because the Black Dragon still has a caster level of 15+ (17 depending on some things). This was explained over and over. The Dragon puts on the AMF, and then Xykon is boned. Even with a free first shot in a surprise round, Xykon is boned, because the Dragon will still be fine after that, and then will cast the AMF, and again Xykon is dead.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-03, 07:32 PM
No.

The argument that the Black Dragon was not in the "Ancient" Category is wholly separate to the argument Xykon loses. Regardless of whether it's accurate, Xykon loses, because the Black Dragon still has a caster level of 15+ (17 depending on some things). This was explained over and over. The Dragon puts on the AMF, and then Xykon is boned. Even with a free first shot in a surprise round, Xykon is boned, because the Dragon will still be fine after that, and then will cast the AMF, and again Xykon is dead.

You make it sound like the AMF destroys the dark evil magic that holds his lich-bones together. Does it destory the dark evil magic that holds his lich bones together, or just stop him from using non epic spells? Oh yeah, I think Xykon has a much better chance against the ABD than say, V does against Xykon...

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:32 PM
So, are we assuming that V has access to every spell in the game...
But Xykon only has access to the spells we've seen him cast?
We're assuming Xykon has the spells we has shown, we're assuming V has the ones he has shown, and can learn new ones as he grows a few levels, because V is a wizard, and Xykon isn't. It's actually quite tough for Xykon to gain new levels/spells at this point, and most of his high end slots are filled.

But leaving that aside, it's more fun to think of ways for the 17th level Wizard to come up with ways to win than to invent ways the 27-32 level Lich can win.


Unless he's really really stupid, he would have some way of overcoming an anti-magic field (as said in the dragon vs. Xykon debate), and be able to overcome a prismatic sphere (mordakain's disjunction, or an epic spell, or just use wands to bring it down the prismatic sphere. Really, a sorcerer without wands for utility purposes is pathetic). Oh, and V can't cast spells through prismatic sphere.

1) Xykon is really stupid, that's been pretty clearly established.
2) It's bizarre for you to say he must obviously have some way to negate an AMF, because Disjunction is a 9th level spell, and he's used up his 9th level slots. Xykon has never been shown using any wands, and his spell selection is pathetic.
3) V can't cast through it, but he can duck in and out without harm, which is kind of what I said... you know, cast it, buff yourself, stick your hand through and blast Xykon, go back in (or your whole body if that's not an option). It's not the best strategy, but it illustrates just how easy it is to stump Xykon, who as far as we can see will be standing there scratching his skull when said spell is cast.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:34 PM
You make it sound like the AMF destroys the dark evil magic that holds his lich-bones together. Does it destory the dark evil magic that holds his lich bones together, or just stop him from using non epic spells? Oh yeah, I think Xykon has a much better chance against the ABD than say, V does against Xykon...

No, though I believe it nullifies his spell like abilities and such too. What destroys his bones is the Dragon crushing them after Xykon has been rendered helpless by an AMF. And even Epic Spells aren't a given in said field, and none of Xykon's known Epic Spells are effective here.

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 07:34 PM
No.

The argument that the Black Dragon was not in the "Ancient" Category is wholly separate to the argument Xykon loses. Regardless of whether it's accurate, Xykon loses, because the Black Dragon still has a caster level of 15+ (17 depending on some things). This was explained over and over. The Dragon puts on the AMF, and then Xykon is boned. Even with a free first shot in a surprise round, Xykon is boned, because the Dragon will still be fine after that, and then will cast the AMF, and again Xykon is dead.

So why is Xykon boned? He casts Disjunction, field over. We know he has a much higher caster level than the Dragon, so its pretty much impossible to think she has more AMF's than he has Disjunctions...

ORione
2011-09-03, 07:38 PM
1) Xykon is really stupid, that's been pretty clearly established.
2) It's bizarre for you to say he must obviously have some way to negate an AMF, because Disjunction is a 9th level spell, and he's used up his 9th level slots. Xykon has never been shown using any wands, and his spell selection is pathetic.
3) V can't cast through it, but he can duck in and out without harm, which is kind of what I said... you know, cast it, buff yourself, stick your hand through and blast Xykon, go back in (or your whole body if that's not an option). It's not the best strategy, but it illustrates just how easy it is to stump Xykon, who as far as we can see will be standing there scratching his skull when said spell is cast.

1) Xykon is smarter than he usually acts.
2) He has epic level spells. I don't think he could have gotten to his level if he had no way to defend against AMF.
3) Xykon could wait for the duration to end.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:38 PM
a) Xykon has already used up his 3 ninth level spell slots, so he doesn't have injunction as far as we know (in fact to have it he'd need to be even higher level wise than he has already been shown to be)
b) The Dragon casts at a 15th-17th level (see thread), so the Dragon gets 6 usages of AMF. Sure, we've seen Xykon cast 7 ninth level spells in a day... but
c) Disjunction is a low % chance to work in any case, the fact it worked for Haerta speaks to Haerta's ridiculous level. Xykon has not shown anything like that sort of power.
d) The weakness of your argument is clear, you need to give Xykon spells we have no reason to assume he has (and every reason to assume he doesn't) to give him a chance.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:44 PM
1) Xykon is smarter than he usually acts.
2) He has epic level spells. I don't think he could have gotten to his level if he had no way to defend against AMF.
3) Xykon could wait for the duration to end.

1) There is really very little evidence he is especially smart, just effective at fighting and trash talking. I don't doubt he's smarter than he often appears, if only because he often appears to have an IQ so low it makes Belkar seem like a scholar. That doesn't mean he's not stupid though, he's clearly that.
2) I don't think someone this stupid could have lived this long, yet Xykon has bungled through it somehow. I also don't think someone Epic would pick so many crappy spells, but he did.
3) Xykon will be reduced to powdered bone by the time it ends, he's against a frickin Dragon! Plus the Dragon can cast it at least 6 times.

Marillion
2011-09-03, 07:46 PM
No.

The argument that the Black Dragon was not in the "Ancient" Category is wholly separate to the argument Xykon loses. Regardless of whether it's accurate, Xykon loses, because the Black Dragon still has a caster level of 15+ (17 depending on some things). This was explained over and over. The Dragon puts on the AMF, and then Xykon is boned. Even with a free first shot in a surprise round, Xykon is boned, because the Dragon will still be fine after that, and then will cast the AMF, and again Xykon is dead.

Even assuming that Xykon doesn't notice the dragon stalking him, and that he doesn't fight the dragon on his terms, AND that he has no defenses against an AMF, Xykon would still win. Why? Because Xykon's phylactery is still whole, and Xykon learns from his mistakes. When he re-formed, he WOULD know the dragon existed, he WOULD place the fight on his terms, and he WOULD make a defense against AMF, and then he would kill the dragon so hard her son would be resurrected and yes I know that makes no sense.

You seem to think Xykon is a complete idiot. He isn't. He's rash, impatient, and engages in many things simply for the evulz, but he's not stupid. He's frighteningly cunning, and perceptive of subtle nuances of things that no one thinks he's even aware of, as evidenced in SoD.

This is completely moot anyway; Xykon and the ABD have no reason to fight.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:48 PM
I dunno where you keep getting this idea that Xykon is horribly unoptimized just cuz his spell list isn't perfect. First, there's a lot we dont' know about his spell list... look at o'chuls list: 5th level: Unknown, 6th level: Unknown x2, 8th level: unknown... he could well have answers we just don't know about yet.

I went over the reasoning his spell selection is horribly unoptimised. The fact some are unknown doesn't change that, especially with so many high level slots known.


As to your thing about him being stumped by Prismatic SPhere... um, considering we don't even know many of Xykon's spell selections, how could you even begin to make such an assertion? But we do know Xykon has Teleport in his spell list, which I believe can be used as one way to circumvent it already since I dont see anything in the SRD description of Prismatic sphere or wall on it blocking extraplanar travel.
You can't teleport into a prismatic sphere. It would also be logically absurd to let you do so.

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 07:49 PM
a) Xykon has already used up his 3 ninth level spell slots, so he doesn't have injunction as far as we know (in fact to have it he'd need to be even higher level wise than he has already been shown to be)

Or he could simply have Ring of Wizardry, which we KNOW he actually does have.


c) Disjunction is a low % chance to work in any case, the fact it worked for Haerta speaks to Haerta's ridiculous level. Xykon has not shown anything like that sort of power.

Point, so he simply says "That was cute, good thing I have this nifty Negaton Sash." Seriously, Xykon has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong history of countering things that would screw him over. He is immune to positive energy attacks, immune to disruption, has like eighty spells protecting his phylactory... and you think he somehow didn't notice that he cast a lot of spells and should do something about AMF?


d) The weakness of your argument is clear, you need to give Xykon spells we have no reason to assume he has (and every reason to assume he doesn't) to give him a chance.

The weakness of your argument is clear, you need to assume Xykon has somehow failed to address the most obvious problem in his character, yet somehow addressed many less exploitable weaknesses.


You can't teleport into a prismatic sphere. It would also be logically absurd to let you do so.

You most certainly can.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:52 PM
Even assuming that Xykon doesn't notice the dragon stalking him, and that he doesn't fight the dragon on his terms, AND that he has no defenses against an AMF, Xykon would still win. Why? Because Xykon's phylactery is still whole, and Xykon learns from his mistakes. When he re-formed, he WOULD know the dragon existed, he WOULD place the fight on his terms, and he WOULD make a defense against AMF, and then he would kill the dragon so hard her son would be resurrected and yes I know that makes no sense.

1) This plan still amounts to "Xykon losing... then coming back later and winning"
2) Is that a plausible plan when he is fighting a super clever and cautious Black Dragon who can access an Oracle? Is it a plausible plan when said Dragon has a Soul Bind Scroll? Not 100% on this, but can't the dragon just suck out Xykon's soul before it goes to the Holy Symbol...

At any rate, losing and praying is a terrible plan, and only backs up what I said, that Xykon doesn't win straight up, he'd need to specially prepare to fight her to have any shot.

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 07:55 PM
2) Is that a plausible plan when he is fighting a super clever and cautious Black Dragon who can access an Oracle? Is it a plausible plan when said Dragon has a Soul Bind Scroll? Not 100% on this, but can't the dragon just suck out Xykon's soul before it goes to the Holy Symbol...

Oracle < Cloister, and Soul Bind doesn't work on Xykon. The spell clearly states that the character must be dead, and therefore you can't kill Xykon and somehow cast the spell before his soul INSTANTLY goes to the Phylactory.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 07:57 PM
Or he could simply have Ring of Wizardry, which we KNOW he actually does have.

Did have I think you mean... and a Ring of Wizardry that applied to 9th level spells would be an obscenely powerful object, I'm not going to assume he has such a thing just because he once had a 3rd level Ring of Wizardry.


Point, so he simply says "That was cute, good thing I have this nifty Negaton Sash." Seriously, Xykon has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong history of countering things that would screw him over. He is immune to positive energy attacks, immune to disruption, has like eighty spells protecting his phylactory... and you think he somehow didn't notice that he cast a lot of spells and should do something about AMF?
So your plan is to give Xykon spells and abilities we have no indication he has... hey, how is Xykon's flawless record against more powerful beings? So far I count him losing to Roy, losing to a Silver Dragon, losing to Lirian before he had the element of surprise, losing to Soon... yeh, Xykon's always prepared. His big wins usually happen when the other characters are made to job huge to him in fights that defy belief for their silliness (especially the Dorukan and Lirian fights).


The weakness of your argument is clear, you need to assume Xykon has somehow failed to address the most obvious problem in his character, yet somehow addressed many less exploitable weaknesses.
I need to assume Xykon is unoptimised... and evidence he have backs that up... just like most other characters in the OOTS.


You most certainly can.
It describes it as blocking all spells, teleport is a spell, so it blocks it.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 07:58 PM
Didn't one thread already get locked when it drifted off topic to how a fight between Xykon and the Ancient Black Dragon would have gone? I fear the death of this thread will be coming swiftly.

EDIT: Though, I suppose if I was to throw my two cents into it. If Xykon can counter anti-magic field with a spell or item not yet shown, he will win easily. If he can't, he can still win if he has an epic evocation spell, which has a good chance to ignore the field, and considering his fondness for destruction that is likely. If he doesn't have that, casting anti-magic field is a standard action, then the dragon moves into base to base with Xykon. Xykon takes a move action to get out of the field, taking a single attack of opportunity, and then casts greater teleport and comes back later with minions. If the dragon grapples him to stop him from running turn one with plans to cast anti-magic zone turn two, Xykon casts still greater teleport and comes back later with minions. If Xykon casts a different spell in the turn he's got before anti-magic zone he might possibly maybe lose.....to reform at his phylaxtry and come back later with minions.

Sacrificing minions, is there any problem it can't slove?

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-03, 08:05 PM
I need to assume Xykon is unoptimised... and evidence he have backs that up... just like most other characters in the OOTS.

But you insist on the ABD being perfect, with the perfect set up to slaughter epic level spellcasters and perfect planning with perfect everything ever.

So V against Xykon. What about that? I hear it happened, and V got a massive buff. V still lost.

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 08:06 PM
It describes it as blocking all spells, teleport is a spell, so it blocks it.

It describes it as blocking all spells cast into it. Teleport is not cast into it, Teleport is cast upon the caster. The spell description even says that.

You also seem to be missing the point. EVERY time someone hits Xykon with a surprise attack, Xykon defeats it, and even seems to have anticipated it.

Xykon didn't lose to Roy, he lost to an Artifact.
Xykon didn't lose to Durokan.
Xykon didn't lose to Soon.
Xykon didn't lose to the Silver Dragon.
Xykon DID lose to Lirian, because she attacked his ability to cast spells, and your argument is he never addressed that shortfall? Totally out of character.

SoD spoiler: Don't confuse not caring with not knowing. Xykon doesn't use all his resources because he doesn't have too, its boring for him. You assume he doesn't HAVE the resources despite the fact we explicitly know he spends 8 hours a day making magic items.

Marillion
2011-09-03, 08:07 PM
1) This plan still amounts to "Xykon losing... then coming back later and winning"
2) Is that a plausible plan when he is fighting a super clever and cautious Black Dragon who can access an Oracle? Is it a plausible plan when said Dragon has a Soul Bind Scroll? Not 100% on this, but can't the dragon just suck out Xykon's soul before it goes to the Holy Symbol...

At any rate, losing and praying is a terrible plan, and only backs up what I said, that Xykon doesn't win straight up, he'd need to specially prepare to fight her to have any shot.

1: In a fight, it's not about who throws the first punch, it's about who throws the last. Xykon loses the initial fight, then roflstomps the dragon, who does not have the benefit of a phylactery.
2: No.

There's no such thing as a straight-up fight. DnD isn't Super Smash Brothers. There is no "FINAL DESTINATION! NO ITEMS! FOX ONLY!" Your insistence on such borders on ridiculous.

Besides, weren't you listening? Spells don't equal power. Power equals power. The phylactery may not be spells, and it may not be a +8 racial bonus to listen checks, but make no mistake; it's part of his power, one that the dragon cannot counter. In the end, that's all that matters.

Steward
2011-09-03, 08:21 PM
Xykon didn't lose to Roy, he lost to an Artifact.

That's a little hyper-technical, isn't it? I agree with your point but come on -- Roy snapped his neck like a twig and hurled both his head and his body into a swirling void (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) while Xykon just sort of hung there in stunned disbelief. Roy beat him, at least for a little while.

I'm not knocking Xykon's power, intelligence, and general combat ability; just pointing out that it's possible to for him to lose even though logic says that he 'should' have won. Xykon could have easily defeat Roy if he tried, but he didn't try, and Roy won.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 08:26 PM
There's alot of contradictory stuff flying around, like how Xykon will cleverly teleport away as soon as the fight begins, but how it's boring for him to try and fight as hard as he can (did he teleport away from V or Soon or the Silver Dragon?). Either he's cautious or he's not, and I'm going firmly with not. But leaving that aside, the only tenable plan so far proposed involves Xykon running away and coming back later with lots of helpers (who will defeat the Dragon for him, since he can't). This is the plan for anyone to beat anyone ever. It tells us nothing about whether Xykon can beat the Dragon under his own power in a straight up fight. Though as far as intelligence and pre-planning goes, I'll take the Dragon by a large margin thanks.

Another strategy seems to be to grant Xykon spells he has not been shown to have. Again, this is not an argument, it's the same argument for me to claim anyone can beat anyone ever with unseen and unhinted at abilities (by the way, Xykon would need at least 6 Rods of Cancellation in order to have a chance of stopping the AMF enough, remembering it is not guaranteed to work either, so he'd need more, then he'd also need to hope the Dragon doesn't just teleport or plane shift away and come back later, and that he can acquire another 6+ Rods in the meantime... remind me why the Dragon can't run off and come back, and why the Dragon is less likely to use prep time well). V beats Xykon by casting Epic Disintegrate at him. See what I did there?

I don't get it, is it so hard to admit your beloved Xykon would lose, that you need to invent spells he has never been shown to have rather than admit the evidence points to him losing? I like his character too (when not jobbing people), he's one of the best written by far, but it's clear he isn't winning here. Why is that so hard to admit?


It describes it as blocking all spells cast into it. Teleport is not cast into it, Teleport is cast upon the caster. The spell description even says that.
Not how I read it, but I am curious for others opinions.


Xykon didn't lose to Roy, he lost to an Artifact.
Xykon didn't lose to Durokan.
Xykon didn't lose to Soon.
Xykon didn't lose to the Silver Dragon.
Xykon DID lose to Lirian,
I'm pretty sure the Gate isn't an Artifact, it was created by Mortals. And mortals often have magical weapons and such to aid them. But I digress, the point is Xykon loses quite a few fights, some to people who are meant to be weaker than him. He did lose to the Dragon, just like he lost to Soon, and should have lost to Dorukan and V and Lirian, but the latter 3 jobbed for plot reasons (who could forget the Dorukan fight, where he stands there like a moron and lets Xykon energy drain him to death.

Zmflavius
2011-09-03, 08:30 PM
1) There is really very little evidence he is especially smart, just effective at fighting and trash talking. I don't doubt he's smarter than he often appears, if only because he often appears to have an IQ so low it makes Belkar seem like a scholar. That doesn't mean he's not stupid though, he's clearly that.
2) I don't think someone this stupid could have lived this long, yet Xykon has bungled through it somehow. I also don't think someone Epic would pick so many crappy spells, but he did.
3) Xykon will be reduced to powdered bone by the time it ends, he's against a frickin Dragon! Plus the Dragon can cast it at least 6 times.

1) Yes, there definitely is. His lecture to V is one thing. His ability to manipulate Redcloak in SOD is another.
2) Perhaps because he's not "this stupid?"
3) Addressed already.


1) This plan still amounts to "Xykon losing... then coming back later and winning"
2) Is that a plausible plan when he is fighting a super clever and cautious Black Dragon who can access an Oracle? Is it a plausible plan when said Dragon has a Soul Bind Scroll? Not 100% on this, but can't the dragon just suck out Xykon's soul before it goes to the Holy Symbol...

At any rate, losing and praying is a terrible plan, and only backs up what I said, that Xykon doesn't win straight up, he'd need to specially prepare to fight her to have any shot.

So clever and cautious she tried to swallow a wizard who knew shape-change.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-03, 08:34 PM
I don't get it, is it so hard to admit your beloved Xykon would lose, that you need to invent spells he has never been shown to have rather than admit the evidence points to him losing? I like his character too (when not jobbing people), he's one of the best written by far, but it's clear he isn't winning here. Why is that so hard to admit?


You seem to think the ABD has time travel, since Xykon has probably gained levels since he lost to the Silver Dragon which you love bringing up. You love your ABD as much as we hate Xykon. :smallannoyed: Also Xykon also has items, which the ABD lacks. Also also, he can fly way into space since he doesn't have to breathe. ABD either gives up/loses, or flies into deep space and dies.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 08:36 PM
I like the character of Xykon far, far more than I like the Black Dragon. However based on what we know, the Dragon wins easily. And that silver dragon was far, far weaker than the Black Dragon should be, based on size and caster level.

PS- and what does it matter that Xykon has "items"? They'll be useless in the AMF anyway. The Dragon has items too (scrolls and such), what of it?


So clever and cautious she tried to swallow a wizard who knew shape-change.
It would be easy to counter this by listing all the dumb stuff Xykon has done, but let's leave that to one side. The Dragon was totally boned by that point, and had no real options open. She tried to win by swallowing V out of desperation, not some strategy. The Dragon did not know V had shapechange, indeed it would have been impossible for the Dragon to predict that V would suddenly gain 8th, 9th, 10th, Epic level spell slots, and so on. Heck, just to make it plausible that Xykon could win, they got rid of Haerta right after this fight (labelling her as the most powerful by a large margin) and them added a bunch of factors designed to job V (including V suddenly forgetting all the strategy s/he just showed v.s the Dragon).

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 08:47 PM
There's alot of contradictory stuff flying around, like how Xykon will cleverly teleport away as soon as the fight begins, but how it's boring for him to try and fight as hard as he can (did he teleport away from V or Soon or the Silver Dragon?). Either he's cautious or he's not, and I'm going firmly with not. But leaving that aside, the only tenable plan so far proposed involves Xykon running away and coming back later with lots of helpers (who will defeat the Dragon for him, since he can't). This is the plan for anyone to beat anyone ever. It tells us nothing about whether Xykon can beat the Dragon under his own power in a straight up fight. Though as far as intelligence and pre-planning goes, I'll take the Dragon by a large margin thanks.

Another strategy seems to be to grant Xykon spells he has not been shown to have. Again, this is not an argument, it's the same argument for me to claim anyone can beat anyone ever with unseen and unhinted at abilities (by the way, Xykon would need at least 6 Rods of Cancellation in order to have a chance of stopping the AMF enough, remembering it is not guaranteed to work either, so he'd need more, then he'd also need to hope the Dragon doesn't just teleport or plane shift away and come back later, and that he can acquire another 6+ Rods in the meantime... remind me why the Dragon can't run off and come back, and why the Dragon is less likely to use prep time well). V beats Xykon by casting Momento Mori at him. See what I did there?

I don't get it, is it so hard to admit your beloved Xykon would lose, that you need to invent spells he has never been shown to have rather than admit the evidence points to him losing? I like his character too (when not jobbing people), he's one of the best written by far, but it's clear he isn't winning here. Why is that so hard to admit?


Not how I read it, but I am curious for others opinions.


I'm pretty sure the Gate isn't an Artifact, it was created by Mortals. And mortals often have magical weapons and such to aid them. But I digress, the point is Xykon loses quite a few fights, some to people who are meant to be weaker than him. He did lose to the Dragon, just like he lost to Soon, and should have lost to Dorukan and V and Lirian, but the latter 3 jobbed for plot reasons (who could forget the Dorukan fight, where he stands there like a moron and let's Xykon energy drain him to death.


Why do you think the dragon will beat him? Solely because you don't think Xykon can deal with the ability to create a 10 ft. magic null zone as a standard action? I can change my stagey to waiting for the dragon to run out of Anti-magic zones only taking one AOO a turn if you like. Assuming thatís itís an Ancient Black Dragon as stated in the comic, its strongest single attack for an AOO is its bite which will do 2d8 plus 11, thatís 4 damage on average after Xykonís DR. And thatís assuming Xykon doesn't go first and drain away a bunch of them at the start. If it is as you say a wyrm, which it really isnít, then it will do 4d6 plus 12, which is 9 damage a turn on average. And THATís assuming he has no better way to defeat the null zone. Xykon can just wait out its Anti-Magic fields and then blast it out if there is nothing better.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 08:55 PM
This is assuming the dragon is going to fight like Redcloak did against the Azure Cleric, where they just stand there and exchange blows politely one after the other. In reality as soon as the Dragon gets within grapple distance, he will grapple Xykon and the fight is over, as she can crush him to bits from there in much less than the 150-170 minute minimum that each AMF will last. Not that it matters, but the Dragon also gets a bunch of attacks per round, so it's more like the Dragon hits Xykon 6 or so times, while Xykon gets one (theoretical) attack. I say theoretical because I can't see what Xykon is going to do that will inflict any damage. Seriously, what is Xykon's plan to inflict damage here?

I mean, is your plan really that the (faster) Dragon who gets (many) more attacks per turn will lose a waiting game with Xykon, which will last a minimum of 900-1020 minutes?

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 08:57 PM
This is assuming the dragon is going to fight like Redcloak did against the Azure Cleric, where they just stand there and exchange blows politely one after the other. In reality as soon as the Dragon gets within grapple distance, he will grapple Xykon and the fight is over, as she can crush him to bits from there in much less than the 150-170 minute minimum that each AMF will last. Not that it matters, but the Dragon also gets a bunch of attacks per round, so it's more like the Dragon hits Xykon 6 or so times, while Xykon gets one (theoretical) attack. I say theoretical because I can't see what Xykon is going to do that will inflict any damage.

I mean, is your plan really that the (faster) Dragon who gets (many) more attacks per turn will lose a waiting game with Xykon, which will last a minimum of 900-1020 minutes?

Since it can only grapple or make a full attack if it doesn't cast a spell? yes.

EDIT: Also, the waiting game would only last a few round, the dragon would have to cast a new Anti-magic zone every turn, since Anti-magic zone covers a 10 foot radius and every turn xykon can just leave, taking one AOO as I mentioned.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:01 PM
Firstly, whether by error or in comic rule, Rich shows the Dragon able to use spells and attack as part of it's multiple attacks per turn. But I want to leave that aside, because there is no need to grant the Dragon such abilities for it to win.

The first action of the fight from the Dragon will be to cast an AMF. At that point, the fight is over, because Xykon can't do anything (except maybe run before the Dragon gets to him). The second thing the Dragon is going to do is charge Xykon and grapple him (like he did to V), and he is faster than Xykon too, so this is a problem for your plan to put it mildly. In addition, when they are fighting, the Dragon will get lots of attacks per round, none of which will use magic, because there will be an AMF up.

I don't understand how you think Xykon wins. Outline the round by round sequence for me, so I can follow your reasoning, please. I'll start you off:

Round 1
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.pngDragon casts AMF*
:xykon: ???

PS- excuse me for borrowing the Picture of the Empress of Blood from the Character Appearances page, I can't find one of the Black Dragon.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 09:04 PM
Firstly, whether by error or in comic rule, Rich shows the Dragon able to use spells and attack as part of it's multiple attacks per turn. But I want to leave that aside, because there is no need to grant the Dragon such abilities for it to win.

The first action of the fight from the Dragon will be to cast an AMF. At that point, the fight is over, because Xykon can't do anything (except maybe run before the Dragon gets to him). The second thing the Dragon is going to do is charge Xykon and grapple him (like he did to V), and he is faster than Xykon too, so this is a problem for your plan to put it mildly. In addition, when they are fighting, the Dragon will get lots of attacks per round, none of which will use magic, because there will be an AMF up.

I don't understand how you think Xykon wins. Outline the round by round sequence for me, so I can follow your reasoning, please.

Assuming Dragon goes first
Standard Action Anti Magic zone
Move Action: move to base to base with xykon

Xykon moves out of the ten foot radius anti-magic zone can block, takes a AOO

Repeat until out of Anti-MAgic Zones
maximised meteor swarm, 192 damge, takes two of them to kill the dragon.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:09 PM
Assuming Dragon goes first
Standard Action Anti Magic zone
Move Action: move to base to base with xykon

Xykon moves out of the ten foot radius anti-magic zone can block, takes a AOO

Repeat until out of Anti-MAgic Zones
maximised meteor swarm, 192 damge, takes two of them to kill the dragon.

Oh dear. You don't understand how AMF's work. Let me help you here.
Round 1
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Casts AMF
:xykon: moves out of the ten foot radius anti-magic zone can block, takes a AOO
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png (takes talking as a free action) "Seriously dude?"
[meteor swarm spell vanishes as it enters the area of the AMF]
Round 2
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Attacks Xykon
:xykon: ???

See where this is going?

btw, based on the damage the Dragon took when fighting V, I'm very doubtful 2 Meteor Swarms would kill her, which is part of the evidence that she's not "Ancient" (since the only evidence for that is Qarr's word, she never identifies herself as such), along with her caster level, size, etc.

SowZ
2011-09-03, 09:11 PM
Oh dear. You don't understand how AMF's work. Let me help you here.
Round 1
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Casts AMF
:xykon: moves out of the ten foot radius anti-magic zone can block, takes a AOO
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png (takes talking as a free action) "Seriously dude?"
[meteor swarm spell vanishes as it enters the area of the AMF]
Round 2
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Attacks Xykon
:xykon: ???

See where this is going?

btw, based on the damage the Dragon took when fighting V, I'm very doubtful 2 Meteor Swarms would kill her, which is part of the evidence that she's not "Ancient" (since the only evidence for that is Qarr's word, she never identifies herself as such), along with her caster level, size, etc.

I highly doubt Xykon would have made it to ECL 30+ if his tactics were that terrible.

Another thing... Xykon learns from his mistakes. Early in the comic, Xykon watched as a bunch of mid level adventurers broke into his throne room and pretty much ate popcorn because they weren't worth his trouble. What happens? His body is destroyed because he wasn't paying attention. In the future? He takes a much more proactive role in combat when there are high stakes.

After fighting super V, Xykon became more careful and went off on some side quest to get some super thing/learn some super thing. I'm pretty sure he is preparing for a number of contigencies. Anything V can come up with in a few levels Xykon probably either has or is obtaining a contingency for.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:13 PM
I highly doubt Xykon would have made it to ECL 30+ if his tactics were that terrible.

We have every evidence they are though, along with all the instances of his near death. His spell selection, his many acts of stupidity... this guy isn't exactly Einstein here.

But give me the alternative plan for Xykon based on powers and abilities we actually see him use

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:17 PM
Another thing... Xykon learns from his mistakes. Early in the comic, Xykon watched as a bunch of mid level adventurers broke into his throne room and pretty much ate popcorn because they weren't worth his trouble. What happens?
He forgot who Roy was...

SowZ
2011-09-03, 09:17 PM
We have every evidence they are though, along with all the instances of his near death. His spell selection, his many acts of stupidity... this guy isn't exactly Einstein here.

But give me the alternative plan for Xykon based on powers and abilities we actually see him use

Why? Then it assumes Xykon doesn't have other spells/contigency plans. If I was a general and I ran into a hostile platoon from another countries army and that platoon was all spearman, I wouldn't form a battle strategy to destroy that enemy kingdom with the assumption that the only weapons which exists in their armory are spears.


He forgot who Roy was...

Yes, but he also took a more proactive role in defeating his enemies. The lesson learned wasn't, 'remember names better!' Also, based on the comment, 'That guy whose name I kept forgetting' or something like that I am not convinced Xykon was being honest. Someone who destroys your body and seriously interupts your progressing plan to take over the universe is not going to be forgotten in a few months without a mental disorder. I think Xykon was doing it to piss Roy off and because he thought it was funny.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:21 PM
Why? Then it assumes Xykon doesn't have other spells/contigency plans. If I was a general and I ran into a hostile platoon from another countries army and that platoon was all spearman, I wouldn't form a battle strategy to destroy that enemy kingdom with the assumption that the only weapons which exists in their armory are spears.

If you can just invent whatever ability Xykon needs and give it to him, you can do the same for the Dragon (or the same for any fight). V beats Xykon because he uses Epic Disintegrate :smallwink:

Seriously, people are claiming in a straight up fight Xykon wins... well, back it up, don't claim he's going to run off, and come back another day with helpers and abilities he doesn't actually show evidence of having.


I think Xykon was doing it to piss Roy off and because he thought it was funny
Except Xykon acts like he can't remember when Roy isn't there... before the battle, after he kills him, etc. There's no evidence to suggest we shouldn't take Xykon at his word here, he literally cannot remember him... and Xykon shows so much foresight from having lost to the underdog, his reaction in their next fight (after remembering who he is) is to not take him seriously again, and to offer to let him go and get stronger, then come back and fight him later. You're imagining whatever lesson you believe Xykon learnt, his actions show he's as dumb as ever.

SowZ
2011-09-03, 09:22 PM
If you can just invent whatever ability Xykon needs and give it to him, you can do the same for the Dragon (or the same for any fight). V beats Xykon because he uses Epic Disintegrate :smallwink:

Seriously, people are claiming in a straight up fight Xykon wins... well, back it up, don't claim he's going to run off, and come back another day with helpers and abilities he doesn't actually show evidence of having.

Naw, because if we give Xykon whatever ability he needs and V whatever ability he needs, twelth level 'whatevers' trump 9th level 'whatevers.'

The truth is, it is impossible for V to come up with a plan where she knows what the odds are of her winning because she doesn't know what she is facing. For the same reason, none of us can come up with a plan that we know will have a decent chance of winning because we don't know what we are facing any more than I know what an enemy army is composed of after running into one of their platoons.


If you can just invent whatever ability Xykon needs and give it to him, you can do the same for the Dragon (or the same for any fight). V beats Xykon because he uses Epic Disintegrate :smallwink:

Seriously, people are claiming in a straight up fight Xykon wins... well, back it up, don't claim he's going to run off, and come back another day with helpers and abilities he doesn't actually show evidence of having.


Except Xykon acts like he can't remember when Roy isn't there... before the battle, after he kills him, etc. There's no evidence to suggest we shouldn't take Xykon at his word here, he literally cannot remember him... and Xykon shows so much foresight from having lost to the underdog, his reaction in their next fight (after remembering who he is) is to not take him seriously again, and to offer to let him go and get stronger, then come back and fight him later. You're imagining whatever lesson you believe Xykon learnt, his actions show he's as dumb as ever.

Alternate Scenario: Xykon has been scrying on Roy for a while. (He TiVoed Roys death and scries on the party when he can, anyway.) He knows that he can kill a mid-high level fighter any time and decides to discourage him/weaken his morale/encourage him to go off and come back in a few years, (by which time Xykons plan should be complete,) AND have some fun screwing with him while he is at it.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 09:30 PM
Oh dear. You don't understand how AMF's work. Let me help you here.
Round 1
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Casts AMF
:xykon: moves out of the ten foot radius anti-magic zone can block, takes a AOO
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png (takes talking as a free action) "Seriously dude?"
[meteor swarm spell vanishes as it enters the area of the AMF]
Round 2
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Attacks Xykon
:xykon: ???

See where this is going?

btw, based on the damage the Dragon took when fighting V, I'm very doubtful 2 Meteor Swarms would kill her, which is part of the evidence that she's not "Ancient" (since the only evidence for that is Qarr's word, she never identifies herself as such), along with her caster level, size, etc.

Based on the rules, two would kill the dragon. Based on the rules, three would kill a great wyrm. If you want to talk about who would win in a fight based on plot then I think it would be the character who has a name.


And you are right, I misread anti-magic zone. It is based on the caster, and not a ten foot radius out in the world

Also, to be clear here. You aren't so much saying that the dragon would beat xykon, so much as anyone who can cast anti-magic field and also do damage in melee could beat xykon. Everything revolves around Xykon not being able to counter it, which considering he is an epic lich is actually worse then the assumption he can't. Particularly assuming that he once lost his magic and it would seem in character he would take steps to prevent it from happing again.

But giving the dragon all the advantages here, it gets to go first and Xykon can't readily counter anti-magic field. Xykon is alone and not interested in calling for help or leaving and coming back with it. Could Xykon still win? Well, assuming minimum level for all involved, to cast Anti-Magic Field as Sorcerer, the dragon would cast as a level 12 sorcerer. Assuming its Cha is high enough for a bonus spell at that level, it gets 4 casts of it a day. Thats 1200 rounds. How can this unrealistically underprepared archvillian run out the clock?

Well, he could play whack-a-mole with his 5th level teleportion spell, insulting the dragon and teleporting away. Seems like a Xykony thing to do. Would that be enough to buy him time? Perhaps, those numbers are hard to do.

Or of course he could cast greater teleport to a magic shop, greater teleport back with a scroll holding the spell he needs, cast it and go to town.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:30 PM
V knows who Xykon is, V knows a decent amount about his abilities. The question of the thread, which is hypothetical, is "can you think of a way for V to prepare to beat Xykon if he grows a few levels and preps for it".

The claim people are making about the Dragon and Xykon fighting is not based on a future hypothetical scenario. Of course, it is hypothetically possible for Xykon to go out and grow a few levels, learn more Epic spells, and prepare to specifically beat the Dragon. Nobody disputes that, because it's not the question. The question is in a straight up fight, who would win. I say the Dragon wins easily, and other people disagree for reasons that are not logical and/or dodge the premise. They all seem to revolve around "Xykon runs off and comes back (maybe years later) when he has become more powerful and is prepared)". It strikes me that if he has to do all this, he's not actually stronger that the Dragon.

Not that it's relevant btw, but another distinction worth noting is that nobody is propping V abilities s/he couldn't possibly have. V doesn't get Conjuration spells for instance, or spells V couldn't have at level 17. On the other hand, people want to give Xykon spells like Disjunction that Xykon couldn't easily have (due to already having filled the three 9th level spells known), and give him items he couldn't forge (unless he's level 32 or higher in some cases).

EDIT: btw, we have no evidence Xykon has more than one 12th level spell slot. If he does, he'd be even higher than level 27.

Steward
2011-09-03, 09:33 PM
Oh dear. You don't understand how AMF's work. Let me help you here.
Round 1
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Casts AMF
:xykon: moves out of the ten foot radius anti-magic zone can block, takes a AOO
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png (takes talking as a free action) "Seriously dude?"
[meteor swarm spell vanishes as it enters the area of the AMF]
Round 2
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Attacks Xykon
:xykon: ???

See where this is going?

btw, based on the damage the Dragon took when fighting V, I'm very doubtful 2 Meteor Swarms would kill her, which is part of the evidence that she's not "Ancient" (since the only evidence for that is Qarr's word, she never identifies herself as such), along with her caster level, size, etc.

Your entire post is invalid. The Dragon would never say 'seriously dude' even if it was a free action. It just doesn't fit her diction as established in her appearances in the strip.

zimmerwald1915
2011-09-03, 09:40 PM
Didn't the Giant say somewhere that he included the sequence where Darth V took on Xykon (and the rest of Team Evil) alone partly to show that V alone would not ever in the comic manage to defeat Xykon? That precisely because V had been the party's howitzer in boss fights, including the young adult black dragon and the giant fiend, that he needed to show that V wouldn't dominate the final, or even every, encounter? That it would be the party, or even Roy, that defeated Xykon, presuming an eventual defeat of Xykon?

SowZ
2011-09-03, 09:42 PM
V knows who Xykon is, V knows a decent amount about his abilities. The question of the thread, which is hypothetical, is "can you think of a way for V to prepare to beat Xykon if he grows a few levels and preps for it".

The claim people are making about the Dragon and Xykon fighting is not based on a future hypothetical scenario. Of course, it is hypothetically possible for Xykon to go out and grow a few levels, learn more Epic spells, and prepare to specifically beat the Dragon. Nobody disputes that, because it's not the question. The question is in a straight up fight, who would win. I say the Dragon wins easily, and other people disagree for reasons that are not logical and/or dodge the premise. They all seem to revolve around "Xykon runs off and comes back (maybe years later) when he has become more powerful and is prepared)". It strikes me that if he has to do all this, he's not actually stronger that the Dragon.

Not that it's relevant btw, but another distinction worth noting is that nobody is propping V abilities s/he couldn't possibly have. V doesn't get Conjuration spells for instance, or spells V couldn't have at level 17. On the other hand, people want to give Xykon spells like Disjunction that Xykon couldn't easily have (due to already having filled the three 9th level spells known), and give him items he couldn't forge (unless he's level 32 or higher in some cases).

No, the argument is that being over 30ECL and an epic sorcerer the odds are that he has a way to beat the dragon and if somehow he doesn't, (unlikely,) he can leave.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:43 PM
Based on the rules, two would kill the dragon. Based on the rules, three would kill a great wyrm. If you want to talk about who would win in a fight based on plot then I think it would be the character who has a name.
It's not plotjobbing for us to base a characters strength on how much strength they are demonstrated to have in the comic. The Dragon shows she has about X many hit points in the comic, so she has about X many hit points. This is not complex stuff. Xykon does not show he has the spells you need him to have in order to win, so we cannot assume he does.


And you are right, I misread anti-magic zone. It is based on the caster, and not a ten foot radius out in the world
Maybe if you were wrong about one thing, you could be wrong about others too...


Also, to be clear here. You aren't so much saying that the dragon would beat xykon, so much as anyone who can cast anti-magic field and also do damage in melee could beat xykon. Everything revolves around Xykon not being able to counter it, which considering he is an epic lich is actually worse then the assumption he can't. Particularly assuming that he once lost his magic and it would seem in character he would take steps to prevent it from happing again.
So you agree the Dragon can beat Xykon based on the evidence we have. Good.


But giving the dragon all the advantages here, it gets to go first
Giving it all the advantages? Huh? Nobody is doing that, but there's sure every reason the think the Dragon wins initiative, or can at least put the AMF up before anything happens to her... the Dragon can dodge things too... I mean, where exactly is this fight taking place in your mind? Are they standing off from 100 paces? If so, then the AMF is definitely going up before Xykon hits. Does Xykon attack the Dragon in her sleep or something? Even that doesn't seem like it's going to change this outcome. Xykon needs multiple hits to kill the Dragon, and even that's not a given at all (and all 4 spheres don't automatically hit btw, and dragons get Damage Reduction.


and Xykon can't readily counter anti-magic field.
There is no evidence he can, and good evidence he can't. If we're going to work on the assumption characters have whatever abilities it suits us to give them, then I give the Dragon the abilities to win too. That's a pointless discussion to have.


Xykon is alone and not interested in calling for help or leaving and coming back with it.
Well I'm not clear on exactly what help he's going to be able to get that a black dragon, who (while alive) had many other black dragon relatives to call on, is unable to call on... prep doesn't seem like it's going to favour Xykon over the much better prepared and intelligent Dragon.


Could Xykon still win? Well, assuming minimum level for all involved, to cast Anti-Magic Field as Sorcerer, the dragon would cast as a level 12 sorcerer.
You never read the other thread I linked you to, did you? These calculations were all done, the Dragon is level 15-17 at least, depending on whether you prop her the plane shift spell that was crucial to her plan.


Well, he could play whack-a-mole with his 5th level teleportion spell, insulting the dragon and teleporting away. Seems like a Xykony thing to do. Would that be enough to buy him time? Perhaps, those numbers are hard to do.
The Dragon can (greater) teleport too. This isn't a great strategy, though teleporting away is pretty much his only option. The Dragon knows where the Oracle is, I can't see how Xykon is going to be able to do this indefinitely, and it still amounts to running away rather than winning.


Or of course he could cast greater teleport to a magic shop, greater teleport back with a scroll holding the spell he needs, cast it and go to town.
What spell is this? Sounds like he'll need a heck of alot to me, not to mention he needs the (very clever) Dragon not to just run off once his plan works.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 09:43 PM
No, the argument is that being over 30ECL and an epic sorcerer the odds are that he has a way to beat the dragon and if somehow he doesn't, (unlikely,) he can leave.

You win 5 internets sir, thank you.

SowZ
2011-09-03, 09:44 PM
It's not plotjobbing for us to base a characters strength on how much strength they are demonstrated to have in the comic. The Dragon shows she has about X many hit points in the comic, so she has about X many hit points. This is not complex stuff. Xykon does not show he has the spells you need him to have in order to win, so we cannot assume he does.


Maybe if you were wrong about one thing, you could be wrong about others too...


So you agree the Dragon can beat Xykon based on the evidence we have. Good.

Giving it all the advantages? Huh? Nobody is doing that, but there's sure every reason the think the Dragon wins initiative, or can at least put the AMF up before anything happens to her... the Dragon can dodge things too... I mean, where exactly is this fight taking place in your mind? Are they standing off from 100 paces? If so, then the AMF is definitely going up before Xykon hits. Does Xykon attack the Dragon in her sleep or something? Even that doesn't seem like it's going to change this outcome. Xykon needs multiple hits to kill the Dragon, and even that's not a given at all (and all 4 spheres don't automatically hit btw, and dragons get Damage Reduction.


There is no evidence he can, and good evidence he can't. If we're going to work on the assumption characters have whatever abilities it suits us to give them, then I give the Dragon the abilities to win too. That's a pointless discussion to have.


Well I'm not clear on exactly what help he's going to be able to get that a black dragon, who (while alive) had many other black dragon relatives to call on, is unable to call on... prep doesn't seem like it's going to favour Xykon over the much better prepared and intelligent Dragon.


You never read the other thread I linked you to, did you? These calculations were all done, the Dragon is level 15-17 at least, depending on whether you prop her the plane shift spell that was crucial to her plan.


The Dragon can (greater) teleport too. This isn't a great strategy, though teleporting away is pretty much his only option. The Dragon knows where the Oracle is, I can't see how Xykon is going to be able to do this indefinitely, and it still amounts to running away rather than winning.


What spell is this? Sounds like he'll need a heck of alot to me, not to mention he needs the (very clever) Dragon not to just run off once his plan works.

No, in your hypothetical scenario where Xykon is a different Xykon than in the comic by placing limitations on Xykons power that aren't actually there the Dragon could beat Xykon. As far as what abilities and contingincies Xykon has... In some cases, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. But this is not one of them.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:44 PM
No, the argument is that being over 30ECL and an epic sorcerer the odds are that he has a way to beat the dragon and if somehow he doesn't, (unlikely,) he can leave.

So Xykon wins because Xykon is too awesome not to win. Great reasoning.

The only limits we're putting on Xykon are the ones he's shown to have, you're doing to reverse, by assuming he has whatever power he needs to win, it's absurd.

Boogastreehouse
2011-09-03, 09:44 PM
I don't get it, is it so hard to admit your beloved Xykon would lose, that you need to invent spells he has never been shown to have rather than admit the evidence points to him losing?

I don't get it. Is it so hard to admit that your beloved V would lose, that you're willing to overlook the fact that absolutely no one on this thread agrees with you?

Xykon's build isn't optimized; we know this already because he is a sorcerer. Heh. It doesn't matter. He has enough levels on anyone he encounters to beat them into submission, including a 17th level Vaarsuvius. Xykon is actually better suited to defeating wizards, I think, so your confidence in a vastly lower-level wizard seems very misguided.

An antimagic field only has a chance of overcoming xykon's epic spells (on a case-by-case basis) if V can manage to overcome a check based on Xykon's level + 11 (as explained here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld)), so I don't understand why you're so obsessed with that spell. Xykon can probably use Superb Dispelling to remove the AMF, and if it surpresses his Superb Dispelling, he can just cast Superb Dispelling again the next round. And the round after that, if need be. Eventually that AMF is going down. That is the benefit of being a sorcerer.

And why would Xykon EVER put himself in a position where he was cornered and couldn't just step out of an AMF? And if he was somehow cornered, he is high enough level that he has an army of minions to help him get out of there. The amount of special circumstances necessary to make an AMF matter in the slightest are enough to make the scenario highly unlikely.

I can see an AMF being used as a feign; an attack that Xykon dismisses or avoids with a laugh, causing him to blunder into the real trap.

Regardless, V didn't learn a lesson about thinking spells would solve all her/his problems, just so that he/she could go toe-to-toe with X again. No one in this story is ever going to be able to beat Xykon though game-mechanics. Xykon is only going to be defeated by being destroyed by the Snarl, or by falling into a volcano, or by being sucked into Hell or something like that. No one is ever ever ever going to be powerful enough to just beat him up.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 09:46 PM
It's not plotjobbing for us to base a characters strength on how much strength they are demonstrated to have in the comic. The Dragon shows she has about X many hit points in the comic, so she has about X many hit points. This is not complex stuff. Xykon does not show he has the spells you need him to have in order to win, so we cannot assume he does.


Maybe if you were wrong about one thing, you could be wrong about others too...


So you agree the Dragon can beat Xykon based on the evidence we have. Good.


Giving it all the advantages? Huh? Nobody is doing that, but there's sure every reason the think the Dragon wins initiative, or can at least put the AMF up before anything happens to her... the Dragon can dodge things too... I mean, where exactly is this fight taking place in your mind? Are they standing off from 100 paces? If so, then the AMF is definitely going up before Xykon hits. Does Xykon attack the Dragon in her sleep or something? Even that doesn't seem like it's going to change this outcome. Xykon needs multiple hits to kill the Dragon, and even that's not a given at all (and all 4 spheres don't automatically hit btw, and dragons get Damage Reduction.


There is no evidence he can, and good evidence he can't. If we're going to work on the assumption characters have whatever abilities it suits us to give them, then I give the Dragon the abilities to win too. That's a pointless discussion to have.


Well I'm not clear on exactly what help he's going to be able to get that a black dragon, who (while alive) had many other black dragon relatives to call on, is unable to call on... prep doesn't seem like it's going to favour Xykon over the much better prepared and intelligent Dragon.


You never read the other thread I linked you to, did you? These calculations were all done, the Dragon is level 15-17 at least, depending on whether you prop her the plane shift spell that was crucial to her plan.


The Dragon can (greater) teleport too. This isn't a great strategy, though teleporting away is pretty much his only option. The Dragon knows where the Oracle is, I can't see how Xykon is going to be able to do this indefinitely, and it still amounts to running away rather than winning.


What spell is this? Sounds like he'll need a heck of alot to me, not to mention he needs the (very clever) Dragon not to just run off once his plan works.

If the dragon greater teleports, it gives up its anti-magic zone and gets a meteor swarm in the face.

The spell is Mage's Disjunction, X can get it from the same place he bought his epic level crystal ball. And with an economy of a nation behind him, he can get as many as he needs.

I did not agree with you at all, I was just saying its not that your really saying the Dragon will beat Xykon, its that Anti-magic field will beat xykon, which I disagree with.

SowZ
2011-09-03, 09:48 PM
So Xykon wins because Xykon is too awesome not to win. Great reasoning.

No, its just that you keep ignoring everything else I'm saying so appealing to, "Someone strong enough to get to level 30 has probably got around a few weaknesses," seemed reasonable enough. Stop calling everyone else illogical and patronizing people. Just because you can yell it loud enough that everyone elses arguments are invalid and emotional does not make it true.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:49 PM
An antimagic field only has a chance of overcoming xykon's epic spells (on a case-by-case basis) if V can manage to overcome a check based on Xykon's level + 11 (as explained here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld)), so I don't understand why you're so obsessed with that spell.
Because his shown Epic Spells will be almost useless in Combat against the Dragon?


Xykon can probably use Superb Dispelling to remove the AMF, and if it surpresses his Superb Dispelling, he can just cast Superb Dispelling again the next round. And the round after that, if need be. Eventually that AMF is going down. That is the benefit of being a sorcerer.
1) Superb Dispelling does not remove an AMF. Next time please read the thread I linked you to.
2) We have no evidence Xykon can cast S.D the 6 times it is necessary (assuming it works every time, which is not a given). Xykon also has used up the three 9th level slots he gets, and that means based on what we know he doesn't have the one spell that might help him, disjunction.


And why would Xykon EVER put himself in a position where he was cornered and couldn't just step out of an AMF? And if he was somehow cornered, he is high enough level that he has an army of minions to help him get out of there. The amount of special circumstances necessary to make an AMF matter in the slightest are enough to make the scenario highly unlikely.
Seriously, read the thread before replying, please.

137ben
2011-09-03, 09:53 PM
No.

The argument that the Black Dragon was not in the "Ancient" Category is wholly separate to the argument Xykon loses. Regardless of whether it's accurate, Xykon loses, because the Black Dragon still has a caster level of 15+ (17 depending on some things). This was explained over and over. The Dragon puts on the AMF, and then Xykon is boned. Even with a free first shot in a surprise round, Xykon is boned, because the Dragon will still be fine after that, and then will cast the AMF, and again Xykon is dead.

Ah right. You now have seen Xykon's whole spell list. You have seen all of his 9th level spells, and know disjunction isn't there. You also know every epic spell Xykon has cast. Right, so tell me, what is X's complete spell list? The class and level geekery would love to know, since you apparently know all of his powers, even though we know he has spells not yet displayed in the comic, and can craft new epic spells whenever he wants...

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:54 PM
If the dragon greater teleports, it gives up its anti-magic zone and gets a meteor swarm in the face.

The spell is Mage's Disjunction, X can get it from the same place he bought his epic level crystal ball. And with an economy of a nation behind him, he can get as many as he needs.

I did not agree with you at all, I was just saying its not that your really saying the Dragon will beat Xykon, its that Anti-magic field will beat xykon, which I disagree with.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.
1) If the Dragon is teleporting, it is because Xykon has already teleported, which means Xykon can't also be standing there to give him a Meteor Swarm in the face. Plus, the Dragon would have a surprise Round from Teleporting in. The Dragon is also not teleporting into Xykon's spell finger here, just to the area Xykon has gone.
2) Mage's Disjunction actually is a very small chance to work on dispelling an AMF unless the caster is at an absurd level (like Haerta), so chances of Xykon being able to do it most times is very, very low. Worse, he doesn't have a known spell slot for said spell, which means he's not using his own caster level, he's using the caster level of the person who made this scroll, which is likely lower. He'll need an awful lot of these, and if he somehow has enough to work then the Dragon teleports away and comes back when she's recharged and prepped too. Every indication suggests the Dragon's prep will be more effective too. In reality though, as soon as Xykon fails a disjunction, the Dragon has him in the range of the field and he's boned, though why Xykon gets prep and the Dragon doesn't is beyond me.
3) By your (terrible) logic, xykon won't defeat the Dragon either... the meteor swarm will. This is incredibly facile reasoning.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 09:56 PM
Ah right. You now have seen Xykon's whole spell list. You have seen all of his 9th level spells, and know disjunction isn't there. You also know every epic spell Xykon has cast. Right, so tell me, what is X's complete spell list? The class and level geekery would love to know, since you apparently know all of his powers, even though we know he has spells not yet displayed in the comic, and can craft new epic spells whenever he wants...

The only intelligent way to discuss these scenarios is based on the demonstrated abilities they have, not just inventing whatever abilities we want, or else I could do the same for anyone to beat Xykon too.

Xykon has shown no indication he can cast disjunction or other epic spells, so we don't grant him those abilities until he demonstrates them.

Boogastreehouse
2011-09-03, 10:01 PM
Because his shown Epic Spells will be almost useless in Combat against the Dragon?


1) Superb Dispelling does not remove an AMF. Next time please read the thread I linked you to.
2) We have no evidence Xykon can cast S.D the 6 times it is necessary (assuming it works every time, which is not a given). Xykon also has used up the three 9th level slots he gets, and that means based on what we know he doesn't have the one spell that might help him, disjunction.


Seriously, read the thread before replying, please.

I did read the thread (though your condescending tone is greatly appreciated).

I'm looking for the link you mentioned, I'm just having trouble finding it amongst the dozens and dozens of posts telling you that you're wrong.

I just got confused as to which part I was replying to; I thought we were still talking about a 17th level V somehow being able to defeat an epic lich by him/herself. I had forgotten that your strange need to discredit xykon had caused you to concoct several manically-defended scenarios of dubious plausibility which would lead to his defeat.

I'll look for that link. In the meantime, keep fighting the good fight.

SowZ
2011-09-03, 10:02 PM
The only intelligent way to discuss these scenarios is based on the demonstrated abilities they have, not just inventing whatever abilities we want, or else I could do the same for anyone to beat Xykon too.

Xykon has shown no indication he can cast disjunction or other epic spells, so we don't grant him those abilities until he demonstrates them.

We have never seen Elan actually use Fascinate. He must not have it. Saying, "We have only seen A and B so we can say that C doesn't exist" doesn't hold up. Putting limitations on Xykon that Xykon doesn't actually have creates a Xykon totally seperate then the one in the strip. The Xykon you are discussing is not the Xykon Rich created. My spearman analogy still stands.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-03, 10:03 PM
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.
1) If the Dragon is teleporting, it is because Xykon has already teleported, which means Xykon can't also be standing there to give him a Meteor Swarm in the face. Plus, the Dragon would have a surprise Round from Teleporting in. The Dragon is also not teleporting into Xykon's spell finger here, just to the area Xykon has gone.
2) Mage's Disjunction actually is a very small chance to work on dispelling an AMF unless the caster is at an absurd level (like Haerta), so chances of Xykon being able to do it most times is very, very low. Worse, he doesn't have a known spell slot for said spell, which means he's not using his own caster level, he's using the caster level of the person who made this scroll, which is likely lower. He'll need an awful lot of these, and if he somehow has enough to work then the Dragon teleports away and comes back when she's recharged and prepped too. Every indication suggests the Dragon's prep will be more effective too.
3) By your (terrible) logic, xykon won't defeat the Dragon either... the meteor swarm will. This is incredibly facile reasoning.

1. If the dragon teleported it used a standard action, thats more or less its turn. Xykon then gets a turn to hit him with a spell. Then the dragon uses its next standard action to get anti-magic field again. The dragon does not get a surprise round.

2. He has, at least, a bit better then a fourth chance to use the spell to get rid of the spell. Having the economy of a nation behind he, he can really buy just about anything he wants.

3. No, it isn't. Xykon could use a bunch of different spells to beat the dragon, Meteor Swarm is just his favorite. The dragon's plan hinges solely on a spell. It is also interesting to note that if the dragon was a wyrm, it could not fight all of its body into the anti-magic field. An Ancient dragon has problems with it, actually, as can be seen in the strip.

EDIT: and I have to get up tomorrow so it's bed time, I hope there are other people who agree with the point of view that Xykon will win who will keep arguing it in my absence. I think I spotted one or two.

denthor
2011-09-03, 10:06 PM
Monster in the dark get Xykon even under charm effect from said big bad evil dude.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 10:06 PM
And you're putting limits on the Dragon it isn't shown to have, perhaps the Dragon has Epic Magic too!

Going down this road would make all discussion and comparison useless, because you would disavow certainty of everything. This is a message board, so that can't be the purpose of posting here, and more to the point it isn't the purpose of the discussion here which you've chosen to participate in. Worse though, you've claimed your own brand of certainty, that Xykon will win. How can you claim that, when you don't know the limits of the Dragon either (by your own logic).

Back in reality, people who work off logical principles like induction and occam's razor already have a method to work around such problems, which is to go off what we know.

SowZ
2011-09-03, 10:08 PM
And you're putting limits on the Dragon it isn't shown to have, perhaps the Dragon has Epic Magic too!

Going down this road would make all discussion and comparison useless, because you would disavow certainty of everything. This is a message board, so that can't be the purpose of posting here, and more to the point it isn't the purpose of the discussion here which you've chosen to participate in. Worse though, you've claimed your own brand of certainty, that Xykon will win. How can you claim that, when you don't know the limits of the Dragon either (by your own logic).

Back in reality, people who work off logical principles like induction and occam's razor already have a method to work around such problems, which is to go off what we know.

Stating your arguments are logical and saying the names of some logical principles does not make it so. By your interpretation of induction and Occam's Razor, my spear thing works just fine.

Zmflavius
2011-09-03, 10:08 PM
And you're putting limits on the Dragon it isn't shown to have, perhaps the Dragon has Epic Magic too!

Such as?

Such as?

The Underlord
2011-09-03, 10:11 PM
On the topic of V vs X
1. Dominate Person on Redcloak
2. Command Him to Gate a Solar
3. Create a solar army
4. ??????
5. Profit!
This assumes 2 things, Redcloak would fail the will save (With good will save and good wisdom) and Redcloak ia high enough level to cast Gate.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 10:13 PM
1. If the dragon teleported it used a standard action, thats more or less its turn. Xykon then gets a turn to hit him with a spell. Then the dragon uses its next standard action to get anti-magic field again. The dragon does not get a surprise round.
Strange that V gets a surprise round when he teleports in on Xykon :smallwink:
Maybe you need to look into this more. Or maybe the Dragon goes invisible and then Teleports nearby, then attacks with surprise (since we know the Dragon has invisibility). Or maybe the Dragon just wins initiative.


2. He has, at least, a bit better then a fourth chance to use the spell to get rid of the spell. Having the economy of a nation behind he, he can really buy just about anything he wants.
If he had the spell, yes, which is actually terrible, but whatever. But if he's buying it from a shop, I'm doubting that the guy who made it, and sold it to the shop, is really the same level as him. As I explained, this is a very bad strategy, almost sure to fail.


3. No, it isn't. Xykon could use a bunch of different spells to beat the dragon, Meteor Swarm is just his favorite. The dragon's plan hinges solely on a spell. It is also interesting to note that if the dragon was a wyrm, it could not fight all of its body into the anti-magic field. An Ancient dragon has problems with it, actually, as can be seen in the strip.

I guess Xykon didn't really beat Dorukan then, since his plan hinged on casting energy drain (and Dorukan doing nothing in response). The Dragon is unbeatable because of AMF, but the Dragon would have a decent chance even without it, though I wouldn't try to calculate the odds. The sizing of the Dragons is inconsistent to what level/age it supposedly/actually is, but what we can see is that the Black Dragon in the comic fits just fine in the field, and won't have any problems winning with it because a small bit of it's tail or some such is protruding.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 10:19 PM
This assumes 2 things, Redcloak would fail the will save (With good will save and good wisdom) and Redcloak ia high enough level to cast Gate.

It's certainly possible; Redcloak is one of the highest level Clerics in the OotSverse besides Durkon.

mrmcfatty
2011-09-03, 10:41 PM
the funny thing is that i think that more people are talking about the ABD than about V.

obviously we all know that V is not going to beat X by himself, this thread is just a speculation on ways that it could be possible within the rules.

One thing that has to be looked at in all of these fights that have been proposed is that in almost all of them X is just sitting around watching paint dry while his enemy, V or ABD, has cast buffs on themselves and prepared to negate X's spells and popped in getting a surprise round.

As for those of you that are saying "well Xykon could have (insert something we haven't seen yet here) to defeat them." thats entirely the point of this thread. Does he have some uber powerful item or spell that would easily beat anything thrown against him? maybe, maybe not, but sense we havent seen it we should assume he doesnt have it. So yes there are many spells and items he may have, but since we havent seen them for the sake of this thread they dont exist.

if they both knew about each other and both had the same time to prepare then there is about a 99% X would win (based on his near limitless resources) however if V were to prepare and X wasnt then i could see V winning. In the fight when he was Darth V he could have won if he prepared just a little more instead of rushing in there(i.e. disable/destroy the trap preventing you from your surprise round) Excluding the fact the phylactery needs destroyed, V could have won but got to impatient and rushed right in and didnt defend himself properly.

and could we please keep it civil in here jeez lol

theMycon
2011-09-03, 10:43 PM
Let's assume you're right, and assume he's a wyrm. He is gargantuan.

The ABD no longer entirely fits in the anti-magic field. Even if he can scrunch himself up, he cannot possibly do so while flying. X can ready an action to shoot him in the face if he tries to bite, blast him in wing if he tries to fly... Given we have seen Xycon cast "overland flight", and he can simply walk out of the antimagic-field and cast Overland Flight if the dragon IS in fact as large as the art in 627 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) shows him to be, he trivially cannot be any threat to Xykon whatsoever.

Assuming, (going by the "minimum shown" standard you have explicitly applied to Xykon), he is an ancient black dragon with 1 level of sorcerer, with the standard 16 CHA for an ABD. He knows only "Anti-magic field" for 6th level spells, and can cast it 3 times a day.

Well, that debate's gone on for three pages now. But at least it is explicitly stated now:

"What can a Level 31 sorcerer with the Lich template possibly do to defeat an ancient black dragon with 1 level of sorcerer, and 3 castings of Anti-magic field?"

Querzis
2011-09-03, 10:56 PM
Oh dear. You don't understand how AMF's work. Let me help you here.
Round 1
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Casts AMF
:xykon: moves out of the ten foot radius anti-magic zone can block, takes a AOO
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png (takes talking as a free action) "Seriously dude?"
[meteor swarm spell vanishes as it enters the area of the AMF]
Round 2
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/EmpressofBlood.png Attacks Xykon
:xykon: ???

See where this is going?

No I dont. You perfectly understand how the spell work but you obviously dont understand how Xykon work. He'll just teleport away after moving out of the radius while giving the dragon the finger and wait till it goes down. At which point he'll teleport back in and energy drain him. And you know why he can do that? Cause Xykon got access to teleport and scrying magic. Aint that great? Mind you, as others have said, he doesnt even need to teleport away because that dragon cant reasonably hurt him very much since, once again (it look like you need to be reminded) the dragon cant full attack or grapple Xykon if he cast his anti-magic zone first! He'll have to move every turn to catch up with Xykon and hes just gonna get some AoE in. But if we assume in your little scenario that at some point, the dragon somehow manage to damage him, yeah, teleport, scry, surprise energy drain in the face.

And of course, this is assuming Xykon doesnt have anything against anti-magic zone which is utterly ridiculous. But hey, once again, we'll give you that point for some reason and he'll still win very easely.

I have seen some stubborn people in these forum, hell I'm one of them, but you beat all of them so hard.


On the topic of V vs X
1. Dominate Person on Redcloak

And theres no step two cause at that point, Redcloak turn hostile toward Xykon and therefore the MiTD eat him.

P.S. Summoning a solar with an evil cleric is kind of a bad idea since it can only result in one thing, hes just gonna kill the cleric. If you actually manage to control him with the spell (which I dont think is all that likely but I havent read the spell in quite while), hes just gonna remember you and come back to the mortal world to kill you. I mean did anyone even read the description of the Solar? They are like a thousand stuck-up paladins united in one guy, a solar is never gonna help someone who isnt good (and V is quite far from perfect too).

Thanatosia
2011-09-03, 10:56 PM
The only intelligent way to discuss these scenarios is based on the demonstrated abilities they have, not just inventing whatever abilities we want, or else I could do the same for anyone to beat Xykon too.

Xykon has shown no indication he can cast disjunction or other epic spells, so we don't grant him those abilities until he demonstrates them.
So basically since we don't know about 1/3rd of Xykon's spell list, you just assume that third of his spells are just empty slots that he herp derped and forgot to learn anything with.... no wonder you think he's so suboptimized anything can beat him.

Querzis
2011-09-03, 11:07 PM
So basically since we don't know about 1/3rd of Xykon's spell list, you just assume that third of his spells are just empty slots that he herp derped and forgot to learn anything with.... no wonder you think he's so suboptimized anything can beat him.

More like 3/4 really. At least as far as his really high level spells are concerned, he got energy drain, meteor swarm, cloister (though I think that might just be because of the crown he wear when he cast it, not sure if its on his actual spell list)...so did I miss any? Cause thats the only 3 I remember.

Boogastreehouse
2011-09-03, 11:15 PM
I have seen some stubborn people in these forum, hell I'm one of them, but you beat all of them so hard.

Actually there was this guy I remember named "la-la-la"{/self-edit} who I think might have been the worst. He was so obsessed with the idea of spliced-V being able to beat up Xykon that he accused the Giant of "ripping him off" and eventually got himself banned. He was an interesting guy, to be sure...

By the way, it's not against the rules to talk about the Banned, is it? If it is, I can scrub this post myself before I get in trouble or something.

Edit: Just to be on the safe side, I just edited it myself.

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 11:18 PM
Seriously, read the thread before replying, please.

Just gonna drop this here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=22&a=1)

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 11:19 PM
*sigh*

Let's assume you're right, and assume he's a wyrm. He is gargantuan.

The ABD no longer entirely fits in the anti-magic field.
How about we assume the Dragon is the size he's shown to be?

As I've noted elsewhere, Rich isn't really drawing the Dragons we've seen so far to the correct scale. Even an Ancient Black Dragon should be bigger than that, the "Ancient" Silver Dragon should be about the same size as the supposedly Ancient Black Dragon should be, and don't even get started on the "Adolescent" Black Dragon or the Red Dragon. Basically, the correct size seems to be getting handwaved to some degree for the purposes of the Art.

The field fits however, so there's no problem, we know because we can see it in the comic. Case closed.


Assuming, (going by the "minimum shown" standard you have explicitly applied to Xykon), he is an ancient black dragon with 1 level of sorcerer, with the standard 16 CHA for an ABD. He knows only "Anti-magic field" for 6th level spells, and can cast it 3 times a day.
When this question was raised on page 1 of this thread I linked to the previous discussion, where we establish the Dragon to be a minimum caster level of 15-17. I've further noted this numerous times now. Go read it, please.


No I dont. You perfectly understand how the spell work but you obviously dont understand how Xykon work. He'll just teleport away after moving out of the radius while giving the dragon the finger and wait till it goes down. At which point he'll teleport back in and energy drain him. And you know why he can do that? Cause Xykon got access to teleport and scrying magic.
You're granting Xykon multiple actions per turn, while granting the Dragon none. Xykon teleports, the Dragon can teleport right after him. The Dragon isn't going to stand there like an idiot waiting for X to port in and blast him. The Dragon has access to all these things too, why oh why is he going to stand there idly while Xykon (so inept at Scrying he needs to buy a special orb) scrys? Why won't the Dragon also be scrying, or just porting after Xykon right after and getting his surprise round? Why won't the Dragon put the field down, turn invisible, then teleport to where xykon is and attack?

I mean, really, you've got Xykon teleporting away, scrying, teleporting back, and then attacking, all while the Dragon does nothing apparently. And remember, prep is going to do the Dragon alot more good than Xykon. The Dragon has a very large family to call on, an Oracle who isn't out when Xykon looks for him, etc. The Dragon only needs to get lucky and get to Xykon first once, Xykon won't be able to kill the Dragon even if he does get lucky and hits him, and the Dragon can port away, bailing at any time she's in real danger. Heck, she can travel to another plane to recover if she needs to.


Aint that great? Mind you, as others have said, he doesnt even need to teleport away because that dragon cant reasonably hurt him very much but if we assume in your little scenario that at some point, the dragon somehow manage to damage him, yeah, teleport, scry, surprise energy drain in the face.
The Dragon wins the moment she grapples him, which she can do the moment he is within reach. She also has a long range breath weapon which is totally unimpeded by the AMF. She is faster than Xykon too. None of this bodes well for Xykon, who can be easily hurt and destroyed by the Dragon, who gets multiple attacks for every round.


And of course, this is assuming Xykon doesnt have anything against anti-magic zone which is utterly ridiculous. But hey, once again, we'll give you that point for some reason and he'll still win very easely.
There is no evidence for it. Seriously, just what could Xykon do based on his current level? He can't have disjunction unless you bump his level up yet again. What lower level spells that we don't know about would make a difference to this fight?

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 11:32 PM
*sigh*

How about we assume the Dragon is the size he's shown to be?

Yes, lets. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)

Not that Xykon NEEDS to worry about Anti-Magic field, but its very clear that dragon's butt is going to hang out of it.


The Dragon wins the moment she grapples him, which she can do the moment he is within reach. She also has a long range breath weapon which is totally unimpeded by the AMF. She is faster than Xykon too. None of this bodes well for Xykon, who can be easily hurt and destroyed by the Dragon, who gets multiple attacks for every round.

Easily hurt for 4 damage a round? ooooooh.

And using a breath weapon which Xykon is immune too? Colour me fearful.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 11:37 PM
The dragon has no difficulty fitting in the field when it wants to, and it isn't standing still, so it can easily move the field towards whatever magic Xykon uses.

I'm sorry, but where is the evidence of Xykon being immune to Acid? Or is this just another of those things you can make up to help him win?

The Dragon will crush Xykon's bones to powder with it's multiple attacks per round while Xykon is pinned and unable to move or use magic.

Seriously Fujin, you give the round by round play of how this goes down, I'm all ears.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 11:41 PM
Actually, since Breath Weapons are supernatural abilities, the Ancient Black Dragon couldn't use it on Xykon unless her AMF were down, meaning that she'd be exposing herself to possible magical assault.

I believe FujinAkari is referring to Xykon's lich damage reduction when referring to Ancient Black Dragon's 4 damage a round...

Which would also be neutralized by an Anti Magic Field.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 11:45 PM
Actually, since Breath Weapons are supernatural abilities, the Ancient Black Dragon couldn't use it on Xykon unless her AMF were down, meaning that she'd be exposing herself to possible magical assault.

I believe FujinAkari is referring to Xykon's lich damage reduction when referring to Ancient Black Dragon's 4 damage a round...

Which would also be neutralized by an Anti Magic Field.

In which case Xykon is even more toast... however assuming the Dragon decides for some reason it wants to melt Xykon, it just sticks it's nostrils outside the field for a moment. It'll be even easier to do when Xykon is pinned in the AMF.

Steward
2011-09-03, 11:47 PM
Okay, so what if Vaarsuvius Polymorphed itself into a dragon?

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-03, 11:50 PM
Okay, so what if Vaarsuvius Polymorphed itself into a dragon?

I'd think he'd need shapechange to do it well, and it wouldn't be as effective, because he couldn't cast AMF like the Black Dragon did. The type of Dragon he turned into would also be much less impressive than the Black Dragon was. Spells like Still Meteor Storm would suddenly be fantastically helpful to Xykon if he was grappled.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 11:54 PM
In which case Xykon is even more toast... however assuming the Dragon decides for some reason it wants to melt Xykon, it just sticks it's nostrils outside the field for a moment. It'll be even easier to do when Xykon is pinned in the AMF.

Yeah, basically unless Xykon has a way to take down the AMF he's boned.

However, that dragon was vastly more powerful than a 17th level Vaarsuvius, which is what you aim to pit Xykon against. There needs to be a way for Vaarsuvius to actually beat down Xykon; Prismatic Sphere would stump him for example, but unless he was boneheaded enough to actually walk out of the thing it's merely an effective delaying tactic.

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 11:56 PM
The dragon has no difficulty fitting in the field when it wants to, and it isn't standing still, so it can easily move the field towards whatever magic Xykon uses.

No she can't, the field is CENTERED on her, she can't move it around. So either the Dragon is hiding in the field or is moving freely and is outside the field. If the dragon is hiding, it can't make full movements because it is restricting itself and Xykon just has to walk around and wait for the field to drop. If it is moving freely then Xykon can simply blast it.

[/quote]I'm sorry, but where is the evidence of Xykon being immune to Acid? Or is this just another of those things you can make up to help him win?[/quote]

Xykon always grants himself immunity against elemental damage, as we saw in SOD. We know he has fire, is naturally immune to lightning and cold, and has a GIANT VAT OF ACID.

It would be entirely out of character not to have immunity to acid, especially since, once again, we know he has been sitting around for MONTHS making magic items... you think he brings in Acid Breathing sharks without considering making an acid immunity ring?


The Dragon will crush Xykon's bones to powder with it's multiple attacks per round while Xykon is pinned and unable to move or use magic.

But all her attacks barely bypass Xykon's DR, if they bypass it at all...


Seriously Fujin, you give the round by round play of how this goes down, I'm all ears.

Fine.

Round 1, ABD shows up and casts Antimagic Aura.
Xykon touches ABD on some area where she is outside the Antimagic Aura (she wouldn't be cowering yet), forcing her to roll 1d20+15 against a DC 33ish Fort save (10+1/2 Xykon's HD+cha modifier).

Even if she passes, how many times is she gonna make that 40% save before she becomes permanently paralyzed? She has to use her breath weapon to even hurt Xykon, IF he isn't wearing his ring, but it doesn't work in the field.

Its just... dumb. Xykon wins this fight without even trying...

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 11:58 PM
Paralyzing Touch is a supernatural ability.

AMF.

It won't work within the field.

Steward
2011-09-03, 11:58 PM
I'd think he'd need shapechange to do it well, and it wouldn't be as effective, because he couldn't cast AMF like the Black Dragon did. The type of Dragon he turned into would also be much less impressive than the Black Dragon was. Spells like Still Meteor Storm would suddenly be fantastically helpful to Xykon if he was grappled.

That's true, but it probably wouldn't occur to her to copy the Dragon's strategies anyway, anymore than s/he would copy Durkon's or Elan's or even Aarindarius's. S/he might pick up a few hints though, and in a few levels wouldn't V be able to pick up Anti-Magic Field? V already has Disintegrate, which is from that level, and we already know that s/he can research new spells (like Vaarsuvius's Greater Animal Messenger, which is kind of crummy but still -- a new spell!) if s/he really wants to.

FujinAkari
2011-09-03, 11:59 PM
Paralyzing Touch is a supernatural ability.

AMF.

It won't work within the field.

Xykon isn't within the field in my scenario.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 12:07 AM
No she can't, the field is CENTERED on her, she can't move it around. So either the Dragon is hiding in the field or is moving freely and is outside the field. If the dragon is hiding, it can't make full movements because it is restricting itself and Xykon just has to walk around and wait for the field to drop. If it is moving freely then Xykon can simply blast it.
She just needs to make sure she's moving so that the field is always between her and the spell cast, which is easy to do since it covers basically her whole body. She's also faster than Xykon, and gets lots of attacks per round to Xykon's 1. I have no idea how you think Xykon is going to exploit this... teleport behind the Dragon, the Dragon does nothing on their turn, and then Xykon blasts the Dragon's tail off?



Xykon always grants himself immunity against elemental damage, as we saw in SOD.
We should probably just assume Xykon's immune to everything, just to be safe. So yeh, you just made it up. Xykon has a CLERIC working for him, so I guess using the ACID VAT logic he must be immune to Cleric magic too. And Lava... because he was going to order a VAT OF LAVA. :smallamused:



But all her attacks barely bypass Xykon's DR, if they bypass it at all...
Damage resistance won't work in an AMF.


Fine.

Round 1, ABD shows up and casts Antimagic Aura.
Xykon touches ABD on some area where she is outside the Antimagic Aura (she wouldn't be cowering yet)
1) As Sarco said, this won't work. AMF negates it.
2) How? If Xykon is so close he can touch the Dragon, he'll be in the AMF within a round, and then he'd dead. It would be suicidal for Xykon to move in close, hoping he can touch the Dragon (who will not be standing there motionless waiting for him to do so).
3) If it works, only the parts of the Dragon outside the field would be affected. Useless basically. "You paralysed my tail... good for you." *Splat*



Even if she passes, how many times is she gonna make that 40% save before she becomes permanently paralyzed? She has to use her breath weapon to even hurt Xykon, IF he isn't wearing his ring, but it doesn't work in the field.
Xykon has no damage reduction in the AMF, Xykon has not been shown to have a ring of Acid Immunity, you made it up.


Its just... dumb. Xykon wins this fight without even trying...
Yet you can't explain a plausible way how, all of them seem to involve misunderstanding the rules, or invented powers Xykon isn't shown to have.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 12:08 AM
That's true, but it probably wouldn't occur to her to copy the Dragon's strategies anyway, anymore than s/he would copy Durkon's or Elan's or even Aarindarius's. S/he might pick up a few hints though, and in a few levels wouldn't V be able to pick up Anti-Magic Field? V already has Disintegrate, which is from that level, and we already know that s/he can research new spells (like Vaarsuvius's Greater Animal Messenger, which is kind of crummy but still -- a new spell!) if s/he really wants to.

AMF is a 6th level spell, and V is up to level 8 spells. What would cause Xykon alot of hassle would be disjunction, followed by multiple sunbursts, assuming V was buffed enough and lucky enough to survive the few rounds it would take for these to finish Xykon off.

Steward
2011-09-04, 12:12 AM
AMF is a 6th level spell, and V is up to level 8 spells. What would cause Xykon alot of hassle would be disjunction, followed by multiple sunbursts, assuming V was buffed enough and lucky enough to survive the few rounds it would take for these to finish Xykon off.

So... does that mean I win?

Hey, for this hypothetical scenario, can V and X bring along any sidekicks? Part of the reason Xykon beat Vaarsuvius before was because Tsukiko and Redcloak intervened quickly. Since Vaarsuvius isn't going to be stronger at 17th level than s/he was with the soul thing, Xykon will have a really easy go of it with extra backup.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 12:15 AM
So... does that mean I win?

Hey, for this hypothetical scenario, can V and X bring along any sidekicks? Part of the reason Xykon beat Vaarsuvius before was because Tsukiko and Redcloak intervened quickly. Since Vaarsuvius isn't going to be stronger at 17th level than s/he was with the soul thing, Xykon will have a really easy go of it with extra backup.

Not with your scenario, because V is also helpless in an AMF, and will probably be killed by Xykon, who has a good chance of casting Epic Mage Armour, not that he needs it, and then beating V to death with his bare hands. As I already pointed out early in the thread, if Durkon can bring Roy, they could carve Xykon up using an AMF. But this is a more challenging task, finding a way for V to win solo.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 12:17 AM
Ok, its nice to see that for the last page and a half, we were using the correct pronouns. But remember, the ABD was a female. Stop calling her an "it" or "he". It is perfectly logical to assume Xykon has a anti acid ring, since he had the acid breathing sharks. (So AMF=turns Xykon into a skeleton with a ton of hitpoints without non-epic spells?)
Why didn't O-Chul use AMF!?! We all know he can...

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 12:19 AM
I doubt a Commoner would win, not with Epic Mage Armour as an option. But Roy and Durkon would win easily.

FujinAkari
2011-09-04, 12:29 AM
1) As Sarco said, this won't work. AMF negates it.

Xykon still isn't in the AMF


2) How? If Xykon is so close he can touch the Dragon, he'll be in the AMF within a round, and then he'd dead. It would be suicidal for Xykon to move in close, hoping he can touch the Dragon (who will not be standing there motionless waiting for him to do so).

Who cares? The Dragon is permanently paralysed. Keep in mind that AMF is usually not the first spell the dragon uses, going by the V fight Xykon gets 3 chances to touch the dragon before the AMF really becomes an issue, and that's assuming the dragon will even cast it then, she seemed to do it in response to forcecage and might not even use it -at all-


3) If it works, only the parts of the Dragon outside the field would be affected. Useless basically. "You paralysed my tail... good for you." *Splat*

That isn't the way it works, AMF doesn't dispel affects, it just surpresses the effect, so the dragon won't be able to fly (any time its wings get outside the AMF, they seize up) can't use its breath weapon, and can't attack outside the AMF, so unless Xykon bumbles his way inside (it is VERY obvious where it is) then the dragon has no chance, and thats being generous and assuming AMF gets up AT ALL.


Xykon has no damage reduction in the AMF, Xykon has not been shown to have a ring of Acid Immunity, you made it up.

Xykon has been shown to have a ring of acid immunity just as much as Roy has been shown to have magical armor. It has never been explicitly stated, but it is assumed given what we know about the characters (Xykon prefers immunity items and keeps acid vats in his castle, Roy doesn't like getting hit and is a melee fighter)

Edit: It actually looks like Xykon could continue to touch attack every round, even in the AMD. It would be suppressed, but it doesn't look like Anti-Magic Aura would prevent the effect from occurring, just from taking effect for the spell's duration.

So at best, the AMD could squeeze Xykon for awhile but, even if she did manage to send him back to his phylactery, as soon as Anti-Magic field fell, the dragon would be permanently paralyses.

Not that I think it would get that far :P

Querzis
2011-09-04, 12:45 AM
You're granting Xykon multiple actions per turn, while granting the Dragon none.

No, I'm granting an anti-magic zone and a move to the dragon (assuming he won initiative) and a move and a teleport to Xykon. I'm almost not sure you're even serious at this point and if you are, have you ever actually played D&D or you just read the PHD and assume that means you know what you're talking about?


Xykon teleports, the Dragon can teleport right after him.

No he cant cause he'll have no idea where he has gone. Where exactly do you want the dragon to teleport to? Also, if hes stupid enough to teleport right after casting anti-magic zone, well he just lost one of the anti-magic zone he can cast. He really wont last long that way.


The Dragon isn't going to stand there like an idiot waiting for X to port in and blast him.

If hes any smart, hes gonna beg for forgiveness and ask to serve him really but hey, apparently your ABD is suicidal.


The Dragon has access to all these things too, why oh why is he going to stand there idly while Xykon (so inept at Scrying he needs to buy a special orb) scrys?

What exactly do you want him to do? If he scry him and teleport in, well he just lost one of his anti-magic zone (to a grand maximum of three he could cast and we're being generous.) I think you really dont understand how much spells your dragon got compared to Xykon. You're dragon can do this three time at most before Xykon kill him. Xykon could do this all day. Also, you always need a special orb (or some sort of magic items) to scry. Its in the skill description.


Why won't the Dragon also be scrying, or just porting after Xykon right after and getting his surprise round?

Once again, he cant just port right after Xykon. Where exactly do you want him to teleport to? He would have to scry first and, being the epic level sorcerer, Xykon is automatically more likely to succeed that. Also cloister. Also, once again, your dragon can use that tactic exactly three time at most till hes toast.


Why won't the Dragon put the field down, turn invisible, then teleport to where xykon is and attack?

He can. And then he'll die because it will be Xykon turn whos gonna energy drain his face (assuming Xykon doesnt hear him before +8 to hear and all that). Unless, of course, the dragon once again activate his field at which point he become visible again and cant attack.



I mean, really, you've got Xykon teleporting away, scrying, teleporting back, and then attacking, all while the Dragon does nothing apparently.

The dragon can do anything he want. It just wont change anything. Regardless of if hes somehow faster then Xykon at scrying or not, he just lost an anti-magic field and only got a pitiful aoe that could even not get through Xykon DR in exchange. And if he teleport back in and once again cast anti-magic field, well Xykon do the same thing once again, why would he give a crap? Hell, if Xykon get really bored, he'll just teleport to a magic store and steal a scroll. Point is the dragon cant keep this up, Xykon could keep this up against 15 dragons.


And remember, prep is going to do the Dragon alot more good than Xykon. The Dragon has a very large family to call on, an Oracle who isn't out when Xykon looks for him, etc.

While Xykon got an entire army. Funny how apparently, all the black dragons in the world would help your dragon enact his little scheme but Xykon doesnt have the right to use any minions.


The Dragon only needs to get lucky and get to Xykon first once

No he doesnt, as people explained to you time and time again, even if your dragon is gargantuan, he can barely get through Xykon DR. He'd have to get to Xykon first 100 times at least. And he cant, only three anti-magic field at most remember?


Xykon won't be able to kill the Dragon even if he does get lucky and hits him

Actually yes he will, just one energy drain and say bye-bye to the dragon ability to cast anti-magic field (or any useful spell at all really). Xykon can one-shot him, thats the whole point.


and the Dragon can port away, bailing at any time she's in real danger.

No Xykon can do that cause he got a lot more spells per day then the dragon. I dunno in which parallel universe you live to think Xykon will run out of teleport first.


Heck, she can travel to another plane to recover if she needs to.

And Xykon can follow her to any plane. Whats your bloody point exactly.


The Dragon wins the moment she grapples him, which she can do the moment he is within reach.

Firstly, I totally disagree that he'd be screwed cause she'd roll a 1 or Xykon would roll a 20 long before she start really scratching him, its simple math. Secondly, and most importantly, if she cast Anti-magic field, she cant grapple him and Xykon will just run out of the field and we're once again back to the fact that Xykon can do this all day. And if she doesnt cast anti-magic field and grapple him from the start, well, energy drain and then shes screwed. What, you think Xykon actually care about the AoE he'll get by casting spells while grappled?


She also has a long range breath weapon which is totally unimpeded by the AMF.

And that breath weapon would actually even do less damage then a full attack with her claw especially if Xykon make his save which, considering the DC and his level, hes very likely to do even if hes a sorcerer.


She is faster than Xykon too.

Yes but that doesnt help cause she doesnt have double of Xykon speed. Which means that if Xykon does a full move to get away, she'll have to do a full move to get close.


None of this bodes well for Xykon, who can be easily hurt and destroyed by the Dragon, who gets multiple attacks for every round.

No he cant be easely hurt and destroyed by the dragon, I dunno if you're overestimating the dragon attack or underestimating a lich DR or, once again, ignoring the fact that the dragon would always get only one AoE if Xykon just does a full move speed (or you know, teleport). And once again, thats assuming its a gargantuan dragon which nobody else then you think it is, if its lower it wont ever hurt Xykon with AoE.


There is no evidence for it. Seriously, just what could Xykon do based on his current level? He can't have disjunction unless you bump his level up yet again. What lower level spells that we don't know about would make a difference to this fight?

What can he do? Cast an epic spell. If he has dysjunction or not doesnt matter all that much since epic spells have a chance to work in anti-magic field and, considering Xykon vs the dragon spellcaster level, yeah it will work.

You know, saying the same things that you know are crap over and over again until your opponents give up isnt a good way to win an argument, even if its true that lots of politicians use that tactic.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 12:48 AM
Keep in mind that AMF is usually not the first spell the dragon uses
Whoa, whoa. The dragon didn't use it right off against V, because she had kept tabs on V and knew she was out of spells that could beat her. Once V was a chance to win, and once V somehow teleported, the dragon said "ok, didn't expect that, time to get serious". The Dragon is going to be a heck of alot more serious against an Epic Lich (or any Lich).

But your logic is bad, because Xykon has a much worse record of not taking fights seriously until it is too late just to "have fun", so if you're only having them fight in character, Xykon loses there too.


That isn't the way it works, AMF doesn't dispel affects, it just surpresses the effect, so the dragon won't be able to fly (any time its wings get outside the AMF, they seize up) can't use its breath weapon, and can't attack outside the AMF, so unless Xykon bumbles his way inside (it is VERY obvious where it is) then the dragon has no chance, and thats being generous and assuming AMF gets up AT ALL.
This is just flat out false. The dragon does fly even with wings partially in the field, and they don't sieze up at all. You're just inventing stuff from nothing, that contradicts what we've seen.

Your logic is also wrong regarding the paralysis. The text of the spell reads that it "suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it". So the paralysis won't affect any part of the Dragon within the field. That doesn't mean that the Dragon's paralysed tail will be cured by moving it into the field of course, but given that immediately after doing this, the Dragon will move the field to where Xykon is and grapple him, it'll be a meaningless action. "Ok, my tail is paralysed, you got lucky, but now you're pinned under my claws and in my AMF" *splat*

And how is Xykon getting behind the Dragon and close enough to touch without the (faster) Dragon noticing anyway? All so that he can attempt a move that a) has a good chance of not working at all, and b) will be an inconvenience at best if it works, and c) will directly lead to his complete defeat.


Xykon has been shown to have a ring of acid immunity just as much as Roy has been shown to have magical armor. It has never been explicitly stated, but it is assumed given what we know about the characters (Xykon prefers immunity items and keeps acid vats in his castle, Roy doesn't like getting hit and is a melee fighter)
It's gotten to the point I feel like just quoting what you've said and adding an emoticon is enough, it's so obviously wrong. Xykon is not even hinted at having a ring of acid immunity, it's totally in your imagination.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 12:52 AM
It's gotten to the point I feel like just quoting what you've said and adding an emoticon is enough, it's so obviously wrong. Xykon is not even hinted at having a ring of acid immunity, it's totally in your imagination.

:smallmad: :smallfurious: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif AUGH! *implodes* I don't under... I don't understand... His imagination is insane while yours is perfect?

VanBuren
2011-09-04, 01:00 AM
It's gotten to the point I feel like just quoting what you've said and adding an emoticon is enough, it's so obviously wrong. Xykon is not even hinted at having a ring of acid immunity, it's totally in your imagination.

The irony here has reached extremely toxic levels.

FujinAkari
2011-09-04, 01:05 AM
This is just flat out false. The dragon does fly even with wings partially in the field, and they don't sieze up at all. You're just inventing stuff from nothing, that contradicts what we've seen.


*facepalm*

The dragon was flying.... because... she wasn't paralyzed...

Here, check it out. This is what O-chul looks like when he isn't paralyzed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html)

This is O-chul when he is Paralyzed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)

Now, study those two strips, and re-evaluate your belief that being paralyzed has absolutely no affect on your ability to fly.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 01:08 AM
No he cant cause he'll have no idea where he has gone. Where exactly do you want the dragon to teleport to? Also, if hes stupid enough to teleport right after casting anti-magic zone, well he just lost one of the anti-magic zone he can cast. He really wont last long that way.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm
But let's assume he can't teleport after Xykon (and vice versa assumedly, since the Dragon can just fly off with the AMF on still), this still amounts to Xykon running away rather than winning, and no actual evidence for how Xykon wins. I'm liking the Dragon's odds with prep alot better, because she can go to the Oracle, something we don't have evidence the Oracle is willing to do (probably because he knows Xykon will kill him), because she has a large extended family of powerful Dragons to aid her, because she needs alot less prep to beat Xykon. Next time maybe she just attacks invisibly to make sure Xykon is stuck in the field. End fight. Whereas I have yet to hear the way Xykon wins even if he's lucky enough to escape and prep.


What exactly do you want him to do? If he scry him and teleport in, well he just lost one of his anti-magic zone (to a grand maximum of three he could cast and we're being generous.)
For someone who accuses me of ignorance, you're making alot of mistakes here. The Black Dragon casts at a level no lower than 15-17 based on what we've seen her do, so she could cast 6 AMF's! Not three, six!


I think you really dont understand how much spells your dragon got compared to Xykon. You're dragon can do this three time at most before Xykon kill him. Xykon could do this all day. Also, you always need a special orb (or some sort of magic items) to scry. Its in the skill description.

The ABD has at least 6 AMF's per day, and 4-6 Greater Teleports. The Dragon can also escape to another plane of existence if things get hairy (somehow), which we have no evidence Xykon can do. Indeed, it seems pretty clear he can't do it because his 7th level slots are all accounted for, and plane shift is a 7th level spell.


Once again, he cant just port right after Xykon. Where exactly do you want him to teleport to? He would have to scry first and, being the epic level sorcerer, Xykon is automatically more likely to succeed that.
1) Xykon is explicitly said not to be able to cast Epic scrying, in fact Tsuukiko says he's bad at it.
2) Scrying will not work with the AMF blocking it.


He can. And then he'll die because it will be Xykon turn whos gonna energy drain his face (assuming Xykon doesnt hear him before +8 to hear and all that). Unless, of course, the dragon once again activate his field at which point he become visible again and cant attack.
Even assuming that, energy drain still leaves the Dragon with 2 AMF's even if Xykon uses the maximised version. After which Xykon's plan is to once again run. Is there some way Xykon actually wins here, aside from just continually running? And the Dragon can scry too, the Dragon can go to the Oracle, etc. The Dragon can hide out in other planes of existence that Xykon can't get to.


The dragon can do anything he want. It just wont change anything. Regardless of if hes somehow faster then Xykon at scrying or not, he just lost an anti-magic field and only got a pitiful aoe that could even not get through Xykon DR in exchange. And if he teleport back in and once again cast anti-magic field, well Xykon do the same thing once again, why would he give a crap? Hell, if Xykon get really bored, he'll just teleport to a magic store and steal a scroll. Point is the dragon cant keep this up, Xykon could keep this up against 15 dragons.
So far Xykon has gone up against 1 Dragon, much weaker than the Black Dragon V fought, and he lost horribly. I have yet to hear how Xykon could beat this singular Dragon, let alone a dozen of them at once. And what scroll is he stealing out of curiousity? An "I can do anything" scroll?


Xykon can one-shot him, thats the whole point.
Actually, as I explained, Xykon can't. A Maximised energy Drain would leave at least 2 uses of AMF. And we don't even know Xykon has more than 1 slot for 12th level, so what is his plan after that?


No Xykon can do that cause he got a lot more spells per day then the dragon. I dunno in which parallel universe you live to think Xykon will run out of teleport first.
They can teleport the same number of times though...


What can he do? Cast an epic spell. If he has dysjunction or not doesnt matter all that much since epic spells have a chance to work in anti-magic field and, considering Xykon vs the dragon spellcaster level, yeah it will work.
all the Epic spells he is shown to have would be meaningless. Disjunction he doesn't have a known spell slot for, and we have no reason to assume he has it... it would also be wholly unlikely to work (27% ish chance to work, and Xykon is shown to cast 9th levels spell no more than 7 times per day, while the Dragon can cast 6 AMF's at least... I don't like those odds at all).

I mean, the fight scenario we're getting from you seems to be something like this:
round 1
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Antimagic Field
:xykon: Teleport away! (let's assume he decided to do this off the bat)
round 2
:xykon: Goes to his Teevo to Scry, this probably is going to take some time. Note:

If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save... If the save succeeds, you canít attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.
Xykon knows little about the Dragon, he just teleported away in the first round they met, so the scrying may just fail. But it definitely fails while the field is up, so Xykon is what, just casting Scry over and over waiting to find the Dragon.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif option a) stay in AMF, Xykon can't detect me, and each AMF lasts 150-170 minutes at least, while Xykon's scrying spell only lasts 27 minutes, and he gets only 6 chances to do it. So with any sort of luck he's going to be out of scrys before long, and I can then Scry on him and ambush him, or turn invisible and teleport in and ambush him, or just keep the field on and use my 200 foot per turn flight speed to go to the Oracle in the 150-170 minutes (times 6) I have before the spell runs out, and he can tell me when to take the field down and port in to kill Xykon.
b) Take the field down and Scry on Xykon, chances are I'll find him as quick as he can find me, and unlike Xykon I don't need to get lucky, because even if he somehow ambushes me and get a free first attack, it will not seriously injure me, and I can escape again. I can even hide out on another plane of existence where a) Xykon can't follow, and b) Xykon is unlikely to be able to scry.

But basically, your only plausible strategy here is "run away". What's part 2 of that plan? How does Xykon actually win the fight?

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 01:10 AM
*facepalm*

The dragon was flying.... because... she wasn't paralyzed...

Here, check it out. This is what O-chul looks like when he isn't paralyzed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html)

This is O-chul when he is Paralyzed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)

Now, study those two strips, and re-evaluate your belief that being paralyzed has absolutely no affect on your ability to fly.

Ok, I thought you were saying the Dragon's wings would be paralysed because of the AMF. So Xykon flies close enough to the Dragon to touch it's wings, but then as soon as he does that (if he's lucky enough to do it, and it works) the next turn the Dragon grapples him and he's stuck in the field, with no ability to do anything. Fight over.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 01:11 AM
They can teleport the same number of times though...


So teleport lets you just follow wherever the other guy teleported? So if a purple skinned humanoid away teleported in front of me, all I need to do is cast teleport and I go exactly where he went?

FujinAkari
2011-09-04, 01:16 AM
Ok, I thought you were saying the Dragon's wings would be paralysed because of the AMF. So Xykon flies close enough to the Dragon to touch it's wings, but then as soon as he does that (if he's lucky enough to do it, and it works) the next turn the Dragon grapples him and he's stuck in the field, with no ability to do anything. Fight over.

I'm glad you admit the fight is over, because at this point even if the Dragon "Kills" Xykon (I find this unlikely, all Xykon has to do is force his way out of the AMF once), Xykon reforms and the dragon will be permanently and irrevocably paralyzed the moment AMF's duration expires (remember, it doesn't dispel it, and the Dragon can't dispel herself while AMF is preventing spellcasting))

The Mad Hatter
2011-09-04, 01:20 AM
Woah this thread goes on for ages...here's my idea v finds a wand of destruction and takes. Improved initiative. And smushes xykon into:smallamused: bone powder...

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 01:25 AM
I'm glad you admit the fight is over, because at this point even if the Dragon "Kills" Xykon (I find this unlikely, all Xykon has to do is force his way out of the AMF once), Xykon reforms and the dragon will be permanently and irrevocably paralyzed the moment AMF's duration expires (remember, it doesn't dispel it, and the Dragon can't dispel herself while AMF is preventing spellcasting))

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point with all these made up claims (that Xykon has a ring of Acid Immunity just because he should, etc). This is another good example... the Dragon is permanently paralysed? WTF? How on Earth do you come to this conclusion? Once Xykon is turned to dust, the Dragon can take the field down, go get some healing for her wings (if necessary), and then take her time going to the oracle, finding out where to go to kill Xykon, and do so... I mean, he'll take weeks or months to reform, during which he's no threat at all.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 01:27 AM
You're just embarrassing yourself at this point with all these made up claims (that Xykon has a ring of Acid Immunity just because he should, etc). This is another good example... the Dragon is permanently paralysed? WTF? How on Earth do you come to this conclusion? Once Xykon is turned to dust, the Dragon can take the field down, go get some healing for her wings (if necessary), and then take her time going to the oracle, finding out where to go to kill Xykon, and do so... I mean, he'll take weeks or months to reform, during which he's no threat at all.

But SHE CANT MOVE SHE IS COMPLETELY PARALYZED AS SOON AS THE AMF GOES DOWN. Xykon comes back in a week, ABD still there, Xykon tortures for infinity +1.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 01:30 AM
But SHE CANT MOVE SHE IS PARALYZED.

Dude, only the parts of her outside the field are paralysed. When she drops the field, the paralysis doesn't spread to the rest of her, anymore than the fireball that hit her (but only damaged the parts outside the field) suddenly burns the rest of her body once the AMF is dismissed. She can move all of her body except the paralysed bits, and then she just teleports away to get them fixed... assuming Xykon even succeeds.

And anyway:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-04, 01:30 AM
This is another good example... the Dragon is permanently paralysed? WTF?

Paralyzing Touch is a really nasty ability, brotherman. Without someone offering aid the paralysis is permanent. You cannot recover from Paralyzing Touch on your own. Liches: they mess people up.

She'd first need a Remove Paralysis or some such spell.

saltysugar96
2011-09-04, 01:34 AM
Now I'm no rules expert here, and as such feel free to correct any rule breakage that occurs in my post, but it seems to me that Xykon could cast Greater Invisibility and then spam <insert spell here> (likely Meteor Swarm or Energy Drain) on any exposed part of the huge-gargantuan (ie 16ft-64ft long) dragon sticking out of the AMF (which only has a 10ft radius centered on the ABD). The ABD could contain herself completely within the AMF, but I contend it would be very awkward for her and would be difficult to move freely.

It is certainly debatable whether someone within an AMF would succumb to the effects of spells like Energy Drain if it is only an appendage (tail, hand, foot, etc...) outside the field being struck, or if you could Meteor Swarm someone's foot to death. I believe the final call would fall to the particular DM for the campaign.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 01:34 AM
Paralyzing Touch is a really nasty ability, brotherman. Without someone offering aid the paralysis is permanent. You cannot recover from Paralyzing Touch on your own. Liches: they mess people up.

She'd first need a Remove Paralysis or some such spell.

a) It's easy to see how a dragon with her resources and access to an Oracle could solve this,
b) It isn't a great chance to work, and
c) Dragons are immune to paralysis

The Mad Hatter
2011-09-04, 01:35 AM
How could xykon think up all this complex spells and combinations? He's not that smart,and I dont think he spends his time plotting for random elves to come fliying through windows trying to kill him. :smallamused:

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 01:36 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects.

Yay citing argument with facts! Step one: complete. http://i40.tinypic.com/2cx6s1t.jpg

How could xykon think up all this complex spells and combinations? He's not that smart,and I dont think he spends his time plotting for random elves to come fliying through windows trying to kill him. :smallamused:
He DOES spend 8 hours a day crafting magic items though.

Oh guys, what would happen if Xykon took a level in Warblade?:smallbiggrin: ya know, since he needs the extra melee power, apparently.

Querzis
2011-09-04, 01:38 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm)

...how does that help? You logic was utterly screwy before but at least I could still understand what you were talking about. Yeah greater teleport allows you to teleport to a place, even if you dont know where that place is. You still frigging have to know where Xykon has teleported to, whats even your bloody point?????

Edit: Oh wait I get it. Heh, greater teleport allows you to teleport to ęVaarsivius home in the elven landsĽ even if you never went there. But it doesnt allow you to teleport to where Xykon is right now. Thats not a ęreliable description of the placeĽ.


[But let's assume he can't teleport after Xykon (and vice versa assumedly, since the Dragon can just fly off with the AMF on still), this still amounts to Xykon running away rather than winning, and no actual evidence for how Xykon wins.

...oh gawd, I already told you. People already told you. He win by waiting. The dragon cant keep her anti-magic shield forevever and she'll run out of teleport long before Xykon. At which point Xykon get one energy drain in and thats the end of that.


I'm liking the Dragon's odds with prep alot better, because she can go to the Oracle, something we don't have evidence the Oracle is willing to do (probably because he knows Xykon will kill him), because she has a large extended family of powerful Dragons to aid her, because she needs alot less prep to beat Xykon.

Yes, an extended family of dragon who totally helped her with her son. Dragons are loners, even good one.


Next time maybe she just attacks invisibly to make sure Xykon is stuck in the field. End fight.

Oh I totally agree with you, end fight. Because if she attack while invisible, that means her anti-magic shield isnt up. Therefore, energy drain.


Whereas I have yet to hear the way Xykon wins even if he's lucky enough to escape and prep.

...Yeah I only told you repeteadly that Xykon only need one energy drain and people have only been telling you for three page that a few meteor swarm would kill her.


For someone who accuses me of ignorance, you're making alot of mistakes here. The Black Dragon casts at a level no lower than 15-17 based on what we've seen her do, so she could cast 6 AMF's! Not three, six!

If she a black dragon wyrm, yeah she got an effective level of 14 spellcasting. She still can only cast 4 level 6 spells because black dragon wyrm only got 4 level 6 spells a day, thats fixed, you cant make that higher (and since you apparently didnt get it, I meant that she can only teleport after Xykon and cast AMF again 3 times).




The ABD has at least 6 AMF's per day, and 4-6 Greater Teleports.

Which is barely a fraction of what Xykon has even if she did have that (hint, she doesnt).


The Dragon can also escape to another plane of existence if things get hairy (somehow), which we have no evidence Xykon can do. Indeed, it seems pretty clear he can't do it because his 7th level slots are all accounted for, and plane shift is a 7th level spell.

He got a minion just for that and, if the dragon really piss him off, he can just go get a scroll (since you apparently dont want Xykon to use any minion).


Even assuming that, energy drain still leaves the Dragon with 2 AMF's even if Xykon uses the maximised version.

If you assume that the dragon got 10 spell slot of level 6-7 then yes. But as I already explained, thats wrong.

All the others just get really repetitive so I'll just go to:


all the Epic spells he is shown to have would be meaningless.

Xykon has never used one of his epic spell. Cloister is Durokan spell which Xykon can use thanks to the hat. Xykon is still having at least 1 (I used the minimum not to offend ya) epic spell that he keep in store. Make sense from both a storytelling perspective and because Xykon is a show-off. And its Xykon, thinking that its not an offensive spell would really go against the character.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-04, 01:45 AM
c) Dragons are immune to paralysis

Man, that's something that should have come up a lot earlier, which would have certainly saved us some time. I'd forgotten that, mostly because my old DM used to take away most of a Dragon's more off-putting qualities (immune to sneak attack? Really?)

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 01:49 AM
Man, that's something that should have come up a lot earlier, which would have certainly saved us some time. I'd forgotten that, mostly because my old DM used to take away most of a Dragon's more off-putting qualities (immune to sneak attack? Really?)

Ok. Next time an argument pops up about anything, find the page for it and make sure everyone has read said link. Got it Sarco. :smallcool: Simplify the arguments, save time. Knowing is half the battle. With your powers combined, I am Captain Reason!

The Mad Hatter
2011-09-04, 01:59 AM
This is a very complex debate, but I believe I know how to end this. V needs to research a spell that uber boosts His/her initiative and take improved initiative as a feat, she casts destruction and blows xykon to paste(even if xykon makes his save he still loses half his hp then casts implode which does the same thing and kills him! :smallwink: (I feel like a nerd) But im proud of it! :smallsmile:

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-04, 02:14 AM
Ok. Next time an argument pops up about anything, find the page for it and make sure everyone has read said link. Got it Sarco. :smallcool: Simplify the arguments, save time. Knowing is half the battle. With your powers combined, I am Captain Reason!

If you were Captain Reason, then illogical arguments should be lethal to you, forcing you to rely on your spunky multi-ethnic teenage sidekicks to save the day.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 02:24 AM
There's some really confused stuff from you here. I'll try and focus on the important bits.

Xykon has no idea where the Black Dragon is either.
...oh gawd, I already told you. People already told you. He win by waiting. The dragon cant keep her anti-magic shield forevever and she'll run out of teleport long before Xykon. At which point Xykon get one energy drain in and thats the end of that.

How does Xykon win by waiting? They have the about the same number of Teleport's we know about. Xykon has 6 at least, and maybe 7, while the Dragon gets 4-6 at least... not including Plane Shift. How does Xykon have more teleports? Because you want him to? How does she run out of AMF's first, when each one goes for a minimum of 150-170 minutes, and she can cast 6 times a day. That's over 15 hours of the day she'll be able to keep the Field on, during which she's totally undetectable... not considering the fact that Xykon doesn't have the best odds of being able to scry her anyway. Heck, she can go to another plane of existence if she has to bail in a hurry, and she has as many teleports as Xykon has known scry spells and teleport spells, so how exactly she's going to run out before he does is wholly unclear to me. Heck, she can use her 200 foot per turn flight speed to travel between 320-640 miles per day depending on whether she is hustling. If the Oracle is that close, she never even has to drop the field at all.


Yes, an extended family of dragon who totally helped her with her son. Dragons are loners, even good one.
She didn't need their help, but they'll sure be more reliable and useful allies than Xykon can get.


Oh I totally agree with you, end fight. Because if she attack while invisible, that means her anti-magic shield isnt up. Therefore, energy drain.
Xykon doesn't just know where she is at all times because he gets a nice listen check, and energy drain (even maximised) still leaves 2 AMF's at least, after which splat.


...Yeah I only told you repeteadly that Xykon only need one energy drain and people have only been telling you for three page that a few meteor swarm would kill her.
And you've been wrong. A maximised energy drain takes 8 spell slots, the Dragon (even at level 15) has 10 above 6th level, and AMF is a 6th level spell, so she still gets 2 more. A maximised meteor swarm isn't enough to kill her, it'd maybe take half her HP's, but then Xykon has not shown he can cast 2 level 12 spells in a day, so after that the damage is all less, and if the Dragon gets serious damage she can bail no problems.


If she a black dragon wyrm, yeah she got an effective level of 14 spellcasting. She still can only cast 4 level 6 spells because black dragon wyrm only got 4 level 6 spells a day, thats fixed, you cant make that higher (and since you apparently didnt get it, I meant that she can only teleport after Xykon and cast AMF again 3 times).
For the last time, she is a 15th level sorcerer, because that's how high she needs to be to know 2 different level 7 spells (G.Teleport and Finger of Death), if she knows Plane Shift as well (which is integral to her plan) then she'd be level 17, though it's plausible I suppose that she has a scroll for this, even though it doesn't make sense she'd tell us she has a scroll for soul bind and not for plane shift, plus she'd need a way home in case she wanted to leave.


Xykon has never used one of his epic spell. Cloister is Durokan spell which Xykon can use thanks to the hat. Xykon is still having at least 1 (I used the minimum not to offend ya) epic spell that he keep in store. Make sense from both a storytelling perspective and because Xykon is a show-off. And its Xykon, thinking that its not an offensive spell would really go against the character.

... we already know of his 2 other Epic Spells, I can't believe you don't know this. They're Superb dispelling and Epic Mage Armour. All of which has been discussed, and none of which saves Xykon in an AMF. Jesus. I can't believe after accusing me of ignorance, you didn't even know this.

Again, you cannot just assume Xykon has spells we have no evidence he has!

There seem to be 2 ways this fight goes down.
Option 1
Round 1
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Casts AMF
:xykon: [does anything except Teleport]
Round 2
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif moves in and attacks Xykon (with the multiple attacks per round she gets, 6 according to Jephton), one of which grapples Xykon. As soon as she moves towards Xykon and he's in the AMF, it's over.
:xykon: "... I'm dead..." *whimper*

Option 2
Round 1
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Casts AMF
:xykon: Greater Teleport
[fight over]
... at some unspecified point in the future Xykon has somehow managed to scry on the Dragon and find her before she a) scrys on him and teleports, or b) goes to the Oracle and finds out what she needs to know. It doesn't make sense, but let's run with it.
Round 1
:xykon: (let's give him a surprise round) [Casts whatever spell he likes, it doesn't matter]
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Casts AMF
Round 2
:xykon: Greater Teleport (or stay and die)
Fight ends for however many days it takes them to meet again, bearing in mind Xykon can scry 6-ish times for 27 or so minutes per day, and if the (high willpower, +20 to +25 depending on the age dispute) Dragon wins her will save once, he can't search again for 24 hours, also bear in mind Xykon has almost no knowledge of the dragon to aid the scrying, and the AMF can be turned on at least 15-17+ hours of the day, which also stops the scrying. At some point, the Dragon is going to get tired of this and get help from other dragons, or the oracle, or just get lucky and get Xykon in the field before he can escape.

How exactly is Xykon winning this? He has no method to win, he just has to keep running away, and hoping each time he tries and ambush teleport he won't be killed, or walking into a trap. His best spell won't come even close to killing the Dragon... so what is the plan here, given 2 rounds of fighting will result in his certain death?

I mean, here's how a fight using a rod of cancellation would go:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif AMF
:xykon: *uses Rod* (rod no longer works)
Xykon has maybe a 27% chance of the rod working, but chances are much lower because the rod was made by someone who wasn't 27th level.
If it works:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif AMF (2nd of 6 possible castings)
:xykon: *uses another rod* (which also dies after use)
I don't know how many rods Xykon needs to use here, and bear in mind if he misses once, then:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif moves in and attacks Xykon (with the multiple attacks per round she gets, 6 according to Jephton), one of which grapples Xykon. As soon as she moves towards Xykon and he's in the AMF, it's over.
:xykon: "... I'm dead..." *whimper*
But let's say Xykon gets lucky 6 times in a row.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Plane Shift/Greater Teleport
:xykon: "well that was a big waste of time"
The dragon comes back another time. Xykon can't be that lucky every time, heck I'm not even sure he can be that lucky once.

SowZ
2011-09-04, 02:36 AM
Guys, there is no way to settle this question because there isn't enough info. If I found a new species of bug and saw it eat an ant and I said, 'Okay, for now we will assume it only eats ants until proven otherwise' I would be a poor researcher. More evidence needs to be gathered before we can postulate about the bugs diet. It would be incorrect thinking to say Xykon does have enough wards and plans and extra spells to stop anything V could do, (though we can talk about odds,) just as it would be incorrect thinking to try and limit Xykon to only eating ants and then make other claims about Xykon based on that conclusion. There is not enough data either way.

The Mad Hatter
2011-09-04, 02:57 AM
What was wrong with my idea it would work!

SowZ
2011-09-04, 03:44 AM
What was wrong with my idea it would work!

Destruction only does 10D6 damage on a succesful save, not anywhere near half of Xykon's HP.

Sunken Valley
2011-09-04, 04:54 AM
Ways V could beat Xykon? Wish. That is all.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 05:12 AM
Ways V could beat Xykon? Wish. That is all.

Dangerous strategy... wish for what exactly?

Kish
2011-09-04, 07:14 AM
Xykon has never used one of his epic spell. Cloister is Durokan spell which Xykon can use thanks to the hat.

It's not possible to put an epic spell in an item. Dorukan invented Cloister, but Xykon has to have actually learned it since stealing the focus from Dorukan to be able to cast it; and Superb Dispelling is straightforwardly an epic spell we've seen Xykon cast.

Other than that, you're right. The ancient black dragon can cast seventh level spells, so she must cast as a Sorcerer 14, for a total of 5+3 sixth and seventh level spell slots; speculating that she casts as an even higher level sorcerer would be speculation, and on much weaker ground than speculating about Xykon having Hellball.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 07:36 AM
It's not possible to put an epic spell in an item. Dorukan invented Cloister, but Xykon has to have actually learned it since stealing the focus from Dorukan to be able to cast it; and Superb Dispelling is straightforwardly an epic spell we've seen Xykon cast.

Other than that, you're right. The ancient black dragon can cast seventh level spells, so she must cast as a Sorcerer 14, for a total of 5+3 sixth and seventh level spell slots; speculating that she casts as an even higher level sorcerer would be speculation, and on much weaker ground than speculating about Xykon having Hellball.

Actually, you're wrong. I feel like I've pointed this out 12 times now across this thread and the other, but in order to know 2 level 7 spells a Sorcerer needs to be level 15. So the Dragon has at least 6+4 level 6 and 7 spells per day.

It is likely given the information we have she is higher, and no that information is not like speculating that Xykon has a spell it's never been hinted or said he could have. The Dragon tells us she is going to plane shift right after soul binding the kids, it is integral to her plan in fact. It doesn't make alot of sense that she'd have this on a scroll, since it would strand her there, and since expressio unius tells us that since she mentioned soul bind did require a scroll, the assumption is plane shift doesn't. It's not ironclad (like level 15 is), it relies on applying basic principles of statutory interpretation, but if true it would mean she's level 17, since that's the level she'd need to know a 3rd level 7 spell.

The Underlord
2011-09-04, 09:39 AM
What about a stragetgy we can agree on, shapechanging into an ABD.

archon_huskie
2011-09-04, 10:19 AM
V had 3 epic level casters soul-bound to him and he couldn't defeat Xykon.

If only there was an example of Xykon getting defeated we could use to compare. Oh wait . . . strip #114 & #115. Xykon's one weakness a luck grapple check.

Don't get it? High powered optimized magic is not an assured victory. Spells don't equal power. power equals power. And the form of power does not limit itself to magic. It can be a +8 racial check to listen checks. A familiar who can fly. Using a Weather Control scroll to cause Sonic Damage, Clever use of a symbol of insanity (He took out a room full of paladins with it and people call it useless?).

Xykon will be defeated in a way optimizers deem impossible by the rules. Without high level epic magic. Xykon will be defeated by a smart fighter, a bland cleric, a brainless bard, a loveable rogue, a buffing wizard, and a replacement/prophecy breaking Belkar. All working together with the power of friendship!

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 11:19 AM
V had 3 epic level casters soul-bound to him and he couldn't defeat Xykon.

If only there was an example of Xykon getting defeated we could use to compare. Oh wait . . . strip #114 & #115. Xykon's one weakness a luck grapple check.

Don't get it? High powered optimized magic is not an assured victory. Spells don't equal power. power equals power. And the form of power does not limit itself to magic. It can be a +8 racial check to listen checks. A familiar who can fly. Using a Weather Control scroll to cause Sonic Damage, Clever use of a symbol of insanity (He took out a room full of paladins with it and people call it useless?).

Xykon will be defeated in a way optimizers deem impossible by the rules. Without high level epic magic. Xykon will be defeated by a smart fighter, a bland cleric, a brainless bard, a loveable rogue, a buffing wizard, and a replacement/prophecy breaking Belkar. All working together with the power of friendship!

Belkar is a pony? :smalleek: Oh god... that is so wrong on so many levels...

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-04, 11:27 AM
I am going to start by addressing the Wyrm/Ancient pseudo-debate. It being a wyrm makes no sense. If it was Ancient, it would have trouble fitting in the Anti-magic zone as we see, if it was a Wyrm it just couldnít do it. If it is an Ancient, then Quarrís statement has a purpose of informing the reader of the kind of power level V was facing. If it is a Wyrm, Rich including the dialogue for the sole reason of confusing the audience. I like to think Rich is a better writer then that. The extra spells the dragons has would then be explained by Rich hand waving the rules (after all neither the dragon nor Xykon nor anyone else for that matter actually characters made) or by taking stacking levels in sorcerer because it has a greater interest in magic then others of its own kind. And while that statement is inconvenient for Magnus, and certainly not 100% prove of anything, it certainly gives more proof then we have for her being a Wyrm as that actually contradicts what we see. So I will be working under the assumption that she is an Ancient Black Dragon with class levels. The highest level spell we actually see the Dragon cast is Greater Teleport. She mentions that she will leave this plane, but we cannot assume that she will do this though a spell she herself will cast, as she was shown to be able to get her claws on very powerful magical scrolls. If we are going to assume the lowest possible level for Xykon itís only fair to do the same for the dragon. Thus, to cast level seven spells as an Ancient Dragon she would have to have 3 levels in sorcerer.



I will try once more to see how this fight could go. Letís begin by assuming Xykon goes first, since we have always given that advantage to the dragon up to this point. We are going to assume that the only spells that have been cast before the fight are ones the combatants would cast every day, in this case thatís an Overland Flight spell on Xykon. If Xykon goes first, he casts maximized energy drain, thatís 8 levels from the dragon. He would have to hit a touch AC of 8, so I think thatís a pretty safe bet. This would mean that the dragon loses its 8 highest level spells, in this case all its level 7 spells and it only has 2 level 6 spells left. The dragon then casts anti-magic field, which lasts for 1400 rounds. In response, Xykon readies an action so that as soon as the anti-magic field goes down, he casts again and wipes out the rest of the dragons level 6 spells. You can do this, and I quote ďYou can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.Ē This means that Xykon just has to live to the end of end of the duration of one spell. The dragon will be attacking, but each attack now takes off 8 damage from its total from a combination of DR and pens from energy drain. Xykonís DR is taken away in the anti-magic zone, because it is a super natural effect. (Though a skeletonís would still function, interestingly enough). Xykon at level 27 should have an average 168 just from HD. This means that, even with the pen, he could not just take attacks for over 1000 rounds, even if each individual attack wouldnít do that much. He does, however, know greater invisibility and teleport. He could just play hide and seek with the dragon.


He has plenty of spell slots to burn; he just has to keep his epic slots open for maximized meteor swarm and maximized energy drain. I think he could easily play hide and seek until he can deal the killing blow, and I think he would be willing to stoop that low if it meant keeping his rep intact.


If the dragon went first, Xykon would flee. He has no problem fleeing from forces he canít beat to come back latter better prepared. The dragon really has no way to stop him from fleeing, which is really why the dragon canít win in the long run. The best it can hope for is making an enemy of an epic sorcerer with the ability to create powerful magically items and an army behind him.


If Xykon ambushes, same as the first but likely much faster, since ambush here means that he came with things prepared to deal with this kind of enemy.


If the dragons ambushes, and say has a scroll of Dimensional Anchor, if it works Xykon is in a good deal of trouble. He could just dispel it and then teleport, so maybe not. Of course, this is still only a short term victory, since Xykon will just come back.

I do not accept the premise that having to leave and come back later to attack from a position of strength does not constitute victory. The fact of the matter is the dragon lacks the ability to put Xykon down for good, while Xykon can kill and soul bind the dragon. Even if everything goes in the dragons favor, eventually Xykon will win. (most important point right there)

Really, the only chance the dragon has for a ďvictoryĒ is for Xykon to have some problem with leaving and coming back. And that is all under the assumption that he doesnít have a way to deal with Anti-magic zone already. And as we have never seen him come into contact with one, we canít really say. Though he Ėis- and epic sorcerer and so I would guess he can.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 11:35 AM
Facinating overview of possible battle

If the dragons ambushes, and say has a scroll of Dimensional Anchor, if it works Xykon is in a good deal of trouble. He could just dispel it and then teleport, so maybe not. Of course, this is still only a short term victory, since Xykon will just come back.

Really, the only chance the dragon has for a ďvictoryĒ is for Xykon to have some problem with leaving and coming back. And that is all under the assumption that he doesnít have a way to deal with Anti-magic zone already. And as we have never seen him come into contact with one, we canít really say. Though he Ėis- and epic sorcerer and so I would guess he can.

Orzhvo... http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z257/kerisrain/other/0_o.png You actually tried to seal the argument. *bows*
*insert complaints about how the ABD goes first and is a Wyrm with 22 levels of spellcasting here*

Sunken Valley
2011-09-04, 12:01 PM
Dangerous strategy... wish for what exactly?

Tons of things. V could wish for Xykon's utter destruction, Xykon's banishment to a demiplane, For Xykon never to be harmed (which by 3.5 laws would remove him from existence), or de-lichify Xykon. For the last option (SoD spoilers) If worded correctly ie, I wish Xykon was returned to his mortal form before he became a lich, it could revert Xykon to just before he became a lich. Then he would be infected with the guardian virus and be an epic level commoner.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-04, 12:47 PM
Tons of things. V could wish for Xykon's utter destruction, Xykon's banishment to a demiplane, For Xykon never to be harmed (which by 3.5 laws would remove him from existence), or de-lichify Xykon. For the last option (SoD spoilers) If worded correctly ie, I wish Xykon was returned to his mortal form before he became a lich, it could revert Xykon to just before he became a lich. Then he would be infected with the guardian virus and be an epic level commoner.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Wish can't really do any of those things. It can only undo an action that has happened in the last 6 seconds safely. Trying to do something bigger then the listed effects will only work if the DM is in a good mood, and then almost always not entirely in the desired effect.

For example, wishing "Xykon was not a lich" doesn't mean he turns back into a human, it could turn him into something worse. Wishing for him to turn into the human he was before he became a lich would almost certainly be considered outside the limits of wish by most DMs.

Wish isn't even an epic spell, though it is likely the best non-epic spell after magic missile. It is sweet, but its not a cure all.

137ben
2011-09-04, 01:40 PM
Ways V could beat Xykon? Wish. That is all.

No DM would ever allow that. That's wishing for so much I would just rule it backfired.

Steward
2011-09-04, 01:52 PM
No DM would ever allow that. That's wishing for so much I would just rule it backfired.

Are we going by story rules or game rules? Apart from the game rule that overreaching wishes can be perverted, it's also a bad story idea. I mean, storywise having the hero's sidekick cast an ordinary spell that just obliterates the villain without a struggle is too cheap to consider (you also raise the perfectly reasonable question why Vaarsuvius would even need to go near Xykon then, which is probably not very visually-compelling).

The Mad Hatter
2011-09-04, 03:55 PM
Destruction only does 10D6 damage on a succesful save, not anywhere near half of Xykon's HP.

Oh! I did not know that! Thanks for telling me,well so far I have absoluteley no idea how xykon could be defeated...maybe she/he sends xykon to a different plane or she/he casts spells to make xykons saves hit the dumps then casts destruction! :smallcool:

Sunken Valley
2011-09-04, 04:00 PM
Are we going by story rules or game rules? Apart from the game rule that overreaching wishes can be perverted, it's also a bad story idea. I mean, storywise having the hero's sidekick cast an ordinary spell that just obliterates the villain without a struggle is too cheap to consider (you also raise the perfectly reasonable question why Vaarsuvius would even need to go near Xykon then, which is probably not very visually-compelling).

If we are talking Story, then nobody has ever cast Wish. At all. Dorukan might have used it in Gate-making but that's it. So I say once someone casts Wish, the results will be epic.

I also say that by story rules, :vaarsuvius: will never beat :xykon:. :roy: will. Or more likely the entire Order will

137ben
2011-09-04, 04:05 PM
If we are talking Story, then nobody has ever cast Wish. At all. Dorukan might have used it in Gate-making but that's it. So I say once someone casts Wish, the results will be epic.

I also say that by story rules, :vaarsuvius: will never beat :xykon:. :roy: will. Or more likely the entire Order will

Nah, I'm going by game rules. No DM would ever allow V to destroy X with one wish spell...
If I were going by story rules, I would say no author would ever allow it:smallsmile:

the_tick_rules
2011-09-04, 04:20 PM
Bring alot of friends to help sounds about the only way.

WickedWizard17
2011-09-04, 04:32 PM
I think everyone needs to remember that V is already at least 15th level - in strip #716, he used the spell "Power Word Stun," which is an eighth-level spell, and therefore requires a caster level of at least 15.

WickedWizard17
2011-09-04, 04:37 PM
Also as to the Wish thing, if we were talking game, and not story, then it would be possible. However, using it in-story would require raping and pissing on all build-up. If V can just cast a random super-spell to defeat our favorite Big Bad, then what was the point of the past 800-or-so strips???

If you ask me, I think of the protagonists, it would have to be either Roy or the whole Order, not V alone. Or wait - ELAN would defeat him!!! LMFAO. :smallwink:/:smallbiggrin:

But I think the most likely character to defeat Xykon would be Redcloak, the Dragon himself. Or rather, Dragon with an Agenda. :smallwink:

Querzis
2011-09-04, 04:39 PM
She didn't need their help, but they'll sure be more reliable and useful allies than Xykon can get.

I know that OrzhvoPatriarch closed the debate in a much more efficient way then I could ever have done but I just have to adress this. Do you know dragons? Dragons, especially black dragons, are about as unreliable and useless ally as you can get if you're another dragon. Even good dragons are loner who would much rather just spent all their time in their lair. Assuming that every damn black dragons would come to help her would be like assuming every undead in the world will come to help Xykon, it just wont happen. The only bond dragons are known to cultivate is toward their parents or their child (and even then, not always). Siblings are usually bitter rivals and mate usually stay only as long as it take to, you know, mate. Dragons have a strong tendency to get along a lot better with mortal race then with other dragons (hence why you see so many polymorphed dragon living in mortal society and why there is half-dragons everywhere). Read the Draconomicon for more information.


Also as to the Wish thing, if we were talking game, and not story, then it would be possible.

Actually, I'd find it more unlikely in the game then in the comic. Not that I find it likely to happen in the comic but it could be handled as a joke. In the game, it just woudnt happen. Wish cant do that and if you try to make wish do that, its most likely gonna blow up in your face.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 04:52 PM
Also as to the Wish thing, if we were talking game, and not story, then it would be possible. However, using it in-story would require raping and pissing on all build-up. If V can just cast a random super-spell to defeat our favorite Big Bad, then what was the point of the past 800-or-so strips???

If you ask me, I think of the protagonists, it would have to be either Roy or the whole Order, not V alone. Or wait - ELAN would defeat him!!! LMFAO. :smallwink:/:smallbiggrin:

But I think the most likely character to defeat Xykon would be Redcloak, the Dragon himself. Or rather, Dragon with an Agenda. :smallwink:

*shushes* We don't mention TvTropes here anymore... not since... :smalleek: This is a joke about tropes being everywhere and how it should stop before the Phantasm goes crazy.

WickedWizard17
2011-09-04, 05:01 PM
*shushes* We don't mention TvTropes here anymore... not since... :smalleek: This is a joke about tropes being everywhere and how it should stop before the Phantasm goes crazy.

Oh, right? Since . . . what? :smalleek: You know what they say - TvTropes will ruin your life! :smallbiggrin:

WickedWizard17
2011-09-04, 05:02 PM
OH. I couldn't see the white text.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-04, 05:50 PM
*shushes* We don't mention TvTropes here anymore... not since... :smalleek: This is a joke about tropes being everywhere and how it should stop before the Phantasm goes crazy.

I thought we didn't mention it because simply throwing out Text That Looks Like This became a shorthand for actually, you know, talking about things, not to mention that the buzzwords get really annoying.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 07:23 PM
1) No Razor, it's already been explained why Shapechanging into a Dragon will not do V much good.
2) Querzis, it's a little rich for you to be talking smack, when you made a series of mistakes earlier, not least of all that you didn't understand how Epic Spells worked. So, let's focus on the post that supposedly does answer mine, from the guy who told me an AMF "couldn't be moved".


I am going to start by addressing the Wyrm/Ancient pseudo-debate. It being a wyrm makes no sense. If it was Ancient, it would have trouble fitting in the Anti-magic zone as we see, if it was a Wyrm it just couldnít do it. If it is an Ancient, then Quarrís statement has a purpose of informing the reader of the kind of power level V was facing. If it is a Wyrm, Rich including the dialogue for the sole reason of confusing the audience. I like to think Rich is a better writer then that. The extra spells the dragons has would then be explained by Rich hand waving the rules (after all neither the dragon nor Xykon nor anyone else for that matter actually characters made) or by taking stacking levels in sorcerer because it has a greater interest in magic then others of its own kind. And while that statement is inconvenient for Magnus, and certainly not 100% prove of anything, it certainly gives more proof then we have for her being a Wyrm as that actually contradicts what we see. So I will be working under the assumption that she is an Ancient Black Dragon with class levels.

This has all been covered alot, and believe it or not, if you go back through this thread, and through the thread I linked on page 1, you will find answers to all these questions. And please, read to the end of this section before you start writing a long refutation that will prove needless (since the age actually doesn't matter). Rich never tells us the Dragon is "Ancient", one of his characters refers to it as such (and an Imp at that), and when asked to clarify Rich said "the dragon is a blah blah blah blah", intentionally keeping it vague. So the Dragon's age is open for interpretation. If Rich fully intended it to be Ancient, then he'd have said so before locking the thread, which he's been doing alot lately. He has the Silver Dragon noted as "Ancient", which makes even less sense, since it would need to be a whole size class larger than the Ancient Black Dragon was. So the sizes are being handwaved to some degree. But using occam's razor, and going for the most sensible interpretation on the evidence we have, the evidence in favour is pretty meaty:
a) Caster level, and
b) HP total, which seems to be too high for an Ancient Black Dragon
The only opposing evidence is very weak, namely:
a) some Imp said so (but it's an Imp... plus, Redcloak said the Silver Dragon was Ancient, and it clearly wasn't)
b) The size is wrong (but the size is wrong for every dragon ever in this comic, assumedly so they can fit in the page).
Nothing is decisive of course, but I would argue a Great Wyrm makes alot more sense going off the evidence.

Now bear in mind it does not matter to the Xykon v Dragon discussion how old the Dragon is. That's because even if Rich came on and said "It's Ancient, no stop talking about it", the Dragon would still have the necessary caster level to win, and would still have the hit points it's shown to have in the comic, and would still fit inside the field as it is shown in the comic. It'd lose minor benefits like extra SR, but nobody is using that as the basis for the Dragon winning. So none of this actually matters.


The highest level spell we actually see the Dragon cast is Greater Teleport.
She also casts Finger of Death (which I've pointed out 10 times by now).


She mentions that she will leave this plane, but we cannot assume that she will do this though a spell she herself will cast, as she was shown to be able to get her claws on very powerful magical scrolls. If we are going to assume the lowest possible level for Xykon itís only fair to do the same for the dragon. Thus, to cast level seven spells as an Ancient Dragon she would have to have 3 levels in sorcerer.
1) I assume you mean 3 levels added on top of the caster level her age gives her? In which case 3 isn't enough for an Ancient to get to 15. But it doesn't matter, because she's still a 15th level Sorcerer no matter how old she is.
2) I'm not going to get into a long legal argument about statutory interpretation, though expressio unius does seem to apply here, since I've conceded the entire way that the Dragon could be 15th level, I simply think it's also likely (but unprovable) that she's 17th level. None of my arguments rely on her being 17th level, I merely observe that fact to be likely. It is not the same as giving Xykon spells he has never been hinted at having, because the Dragon tells us she can plane shift... it could be by a scroll, whatever, but she can apparently do it, it's integral to her plan in fact. If Xykon's plan hinged on being able to cast Hellball, and he told us as much, then you'd have a similar argument for him having Hellball. But you don't.


I will try once more to see how this fight could go. Letís begin by assuming Xykon goes first, since we have always given that advantage to the dragon up to this point.
1) That's not even true, I gave Xykon a surprise round in one of my walk throughs, and it still results in him running away,
2) It is much more likely the dragon gets initiative.


We are going to assume that the only spells that have been cast before the fight are ones the combatants would cast every day, in this case thatís an Overland Flight spell on Xykon. If Xykon goes first, he casts maximized energy drain, thatís 8 levels from the dragon. He would have to hit a touch AC of 8, so I think thatís a pretty safe bet. This would mean that the dragon loses its 8 highest level spells, in this case all its level 7 spells and it only has 2 level 6 spells left.
So far so good... but I sense a fail coming up.


The dragon then casts anti-magic field, which lasts for 1400 rounds. In response, Xykon readies an action so that as soon as the anti-magic field goes down, he casts again and wipes out the rest of the dragons level 6 spells. You can do this, and I quote ďYou can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.Ē This means that Xykon just has to live to the end of end of the duration of one spell.
Xykon has to live, or not be stuck in an AMF... how is he alive though? I mean, the spell doesn't cast at 1000 miles away after he's teleported away... so how is he surviving the 150 minute minimum the spell goes in melee combat with a dragon who is faster than him, has better senses, and gets 6 attacks per round?


The dragon will be attacking, but each attack now takes off 8 damage from its total from a combination of DR and pens from energy drain.
1) DR is a supernatural ability for a Lich, and doesn't work in an AMF (oh good, I see you know this)
2) 8 effective levels isn't going to mean much to the Dragon. I think you're confused about how energy drain works, after losing 8 levels the Dragon doesn't revert to loser status, it will still be easily strong enough to crush Xykon (who is now an ordinary skleton with no supernatural abilities) into powder.[/quote]


He does, however, know greater invisibility and teleport. He could just play hide and seek with the dragon.
Whoa, Whoa. What! How is Xykon getting to pull off these spells when he just had his turn already... he gets 2 turns in a row? And if Xykon does somehow teleport away, the Dragon just leaves the area, and Xykon can't scry on her in an AMF, so he never finds her, especially since she is faster than him, and especially since he's not very likely to scry successfully on her in the first place. I mean, just what is the turn order here:
Round 1
:xykon: (somehow going first) Maximised Energy Drain
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif AMF
Round 2
:xykon: Greater Invisibility
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Advances to spot Xykon was when he cast invisibility, with a (non-hustling) land speed of 60 feet per turn, and a flight speed of 150-200 feet per turn.
Xykon can't cast and move at the same time, and the Dragon is faster than him, so staying is suicide. The dragon will move to where Xykon is/was and the AMF will negate the invisibility immediately, resulting in Xykon's imminent death (not to mention the 6 attacks the Dragon can do in a single turn, the first of which will be to grapple Xykon so he cannot escape).

If Xykon Teleports away instead of going invisible, he's not finding the Dragon again in a hurry (he can't scry on her with AMF on, and he can't turn invisible, teleport back and follow her, because her flight speed is much, much better than his, so he'll lose her... plus teleporting back invisibly is very dangerous, he could land in the field, the Dragon could find him, or hear him, and blast where he is/might be... but assuming he manages to stay hidden, she flies off once she decides it's prudent/can't find him, and he can't follow because she is much too fast for him to keep up), so he didn't achieve anything meaningful, and when he next fights the Dragon she'll be healthy again, and probably attacking first anyway (not that she needs to). Nor can he outrun the Dragon, get some distance, and then cast... because she is faster than he is. Xykon's only viable plan is to Teleport away every time and that isn't a viable long term plan, because the Dragon is going to be ready for it sooner or later (whereas Xykon has no way to stop the Dragon from leaving!).


He has plenty of spell slots to burn; he just has to keep his epic slots open for maximized meteor swarm and maximized energy drain.
He'll be dead in 2 turns, so he won't have a chance to burn any of these spells. We also have no evidence Xykon has more than one 12th level spell slot. Epic slots are different, you can't use the fact he has Epic spell casting to assume he has more 12th level slots. So after that single Maximised Energy Drain, he's back to 10th level slots or lower, and I'm struggling to see any attacks that would finish the Dragon off anyway.


I think he could easily play hide and seek until he can deal the killing blow, and I think he would be willing to stoop that low if it meant keeping his rep intact.
If they're fighting in character Xykon is definitely dead, because he's never once taken a fight seriously in the first 1-2 rounds. We're assuming for the purposes of this example he'll fight smart, in which case he still loses.

I think you need to go back and re-read my earlier analysis, long term it's Xykon who is boned, because he's the one who can't stop the dragon from escaping and coming back to kill him later. The Dragon can escape whenever she wants, including to places Xykon can't follow (plane shift, which Xykon has no slot to know), but Xykon needs to be lucky to escape every time. There is also no reason the Dragon can't learn dimensional anchor herself (though Xykon has no slot to learn it either). You keep saying stuff like this:


The fact of the matter is the dragon lacks the ability to put Xykon down for good, while Xykon can kill and soul bind the dragon. Even if everything goes in the dragons favor, eventually Xykon will win. (most important point right there)
But it's flatly true. If Xykon inflicts enough damage on the Dragon that she's in trouble, she can escape easily every single time. There is literally no way for Xykon to stop her escaping. Xykon requires real luck to escape every time, all it takes is one lucky ambush or surprise round from the Dragon and Xykon is boned. She has access to an Oracle, and can find Xykon despite protections he might attempt, she can even find out when he'll be weakest. It's much harder for Xykon to find her.

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 07:40 PM
This has all been covered alot, and believe it or not, if you go back through this thread, and through the thread I linked on page 1, you will find answers to all these questions. And please, read to the end of this section before you start writing a long refutation that will prove needless (since the age actually doesn't matter). Rich never tells us the Dragon is "Ancient", one of his characters refers to it as such (and an Imp at that), and when asked to clarify Rich said "the dragon is a blah blah blah blah", intentionally keeping it vague. So the Dragon's age is open for interpretation. If Rich fully intended it to be Ancient, then he'd have said so before locking the thread, which he's been doing alot lately. He has the Silver Dragon noted as "Ancient", which sense going off the evidence.


Well, he was being himself. In other words, a guy who writes and draws comics for a living. :smalltongue: He quoted a post and repeated that post because it was funny. Comic writers are funny. So him being funny = the ABD isnt really an ABD because he would have said the ABD was actually an ABD instead of making a funny one liner locking thread post, which he does alot?:smallconfused:

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-04, 07:59 PM
For the ABD to have a chance to win a temporary victory, it would mean an epic level lich can't deal with a level 6 spell.
Xykon can out run the dragon using teleport spells to hop only a few miles, staying in sight range. If the dragons flies to him it wastes time, if it teleports it had to dismiss an antimagic field. Add in insults as he does it making the dragon angrier and angrier, and it seems like a rather Xykony thing to do.

And this is on top of the fact that while the dragon is moving around, if its tail stuck out -bam-, maximized energy drain. Each one he hits with will just make the dragon less and less effective. One means she can't flee anymore.

Dragons add 0 to initiative. If Xykon has 12 dex or higher, he has a better chance of going first. If he has ten, its a dead draw.

You are using Occam's Razor wrong. Occam's Razor in this case would be that the dragon is a normal ABD as Quarr said and that Rich didn't care about the rules. That is the simplest explanation. It being a wyrm contradicts its size and what a character said. Itís not impossible that itís a wyrm, but it is not likely. It is certainly not the simplest. It would mean that Rich wrote a line for no reason other than to lie to audience for the sake of lying to the audience.

In fact, a wyrm of the proper size would have no chance of winning. Anti-magic field could not possible work in that case; the dragon would be too big.

Xykon has a plot powered scrying artifact; the dragon has shown nothing that could stop it from finding her. It's easier for Xykon to get to his ball then it is for the Dragon to get to the oracle. Even if he is polite to her, we have seen nothing to suggest he would break his one question per visit rule.

Short and simple. Worst case scenario Xykon has to run. Once he brings all his resources down onto the dragon, the best she can do is run to some other plane and hide. She can't take Xykon out for good; she can't really take him out at all, because she can't stop him from teleporting. It might take a few hours, she might possibly enjoy a slight initial advantage if everything goes as planned, but the dragon cannot survive a war against Xykon. And keep in mind thatís if things go as bad as possible for the Lich. Itís entirely possible that he could just blast the dragon with an epic evocation or could just keep hitting its tail with Energy Dragon why he plays teleport whack-a-mole.

It's all there! Black and white, clear as crystal! You STOLE Fizzy-Lifting Drinks! You BUMPED into the ceiling, which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get... NOTHING!!! You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR

The Mad Hatter
2011-09-04, 08:19 PM
Wait, what dragon? :smallredface:

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 08:26 PM
For the ABD to have a chance to win a temporary victory, it would mean an epic level lich can't deal with a level 6 spell.
This isn't an argument, this is your feeling. Strangely, I'm not convinced Epic level Lich Xykon can deal with a 4th level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) if someone would just cast it on him already (especially since V has it, but will never use it again it seems because it's from a barred school, even if it's a homebrew version only used for a joke). I guess he can run away, but repeat casting will screw him pretty badly.


Xykon can out run the dragon using teleport spells to hop only a few miles, staying in sight range. If the dragons flies to him it wastes time, if it teleports it had to dismiss an antimagic field. Add in insults as he does it making the dragon angrier and angrier, and it seems like a rather Xykony thing to do.
Xykon gets 6-7 teleports maybe, what does he do when he runs out? The Dragon flies at 150-200 feet per turn without hustling, she can cover a few miles in no time at all, and if it becomes prudent for her to escape (for some reason, let's go with it), she just flies off, and Xykon has no ability to follow her, because she is much too fast for him. It's not like Xykon can just keep teleporting a few hundred feet behind her every time she's almost out of sight, because he'll run out of teleport spells (and it's dangerous, the Dragon has crazy good senses, and might spot him), and once he loses sight of the Dragon (who still has an AMF up) he cannot find her again easily (by which time she will have recovered from whatever injury he's managed to inflict). She can also move fast underwater, create darkness to cover her escape (that she can see through, but Xykon cannot), etc. There's no possible way Xykon can play tag with her and win.


And this is on top of the fact that while the dragon is moving around, if its tail stuck out -bam-, maximized energy drain.
1) The spell does not work with the AMF up. Maybe a generous DM would rule the Dragon's tail lost 5 hit points or something, but the actual effect of the spells doesn't work.
2) Xykon is going to need to be pretty close to do this, and by close I mean he will be within a distance that the Dragon can cover in a single turn, in which case right after doing it, the Dragon will move to him with the AMF, and he's dead again.
3) We have no evidence Xykon has multiple 12th level spell slots, and indeed he'd need an extra epic feat (and thus an extra level of more) every time he has an extra one. So how many extra levels are you granting Xykon here, so he can use a spell that won't work anyway?


Each one he hits with will just make the dragon less and less effective. One means she can't flee anymore.
1) The spell won't work just because he hits her tail, once the AMF is up the spell does not work at all.
2) It's hard to imagine the number of times Xykon would need to do this before her HP's fell to zero, and every time he tries this, the Dragon will get a fix on him, move in and AMF, then he's dead... again.
3) See above.

Since it's irrelevant, I'm not going to get bogged down on the Dragon's age again, none of it helps your argument.


Xykon has a plot powered scrying artifact; the dragon has shown nothing that could stop it from finding her. It's easier for Xykon to get to his ball then it is for the Dragon to get to the oracle. Even if he is polite to her, we have seen nothing to suggest he would break his one question per visit rule.
So your argument is Xykon wins because he's cool and the plot helps him win. This is not an argument. Belkar kills Xykon with a knife, because he's cooler than him. See what I did there. You can't win arguments like this. Plus, Xykon's "plot powered" ball (not an Artifact, he bought it from a store, it wasn't crafted by a God) has been shown to work like normal scrying... it can't penetrate the throne room, and he cites normal Scrying rules to explain how he's scrying on Miko. You're just inventing stuff out of nothing because you want Xykon to win. The Dragon's Willpower and save for Scrying is a hell of alot higher than Xykon's, plus she can be invisible 15+ hours of the day at a minimum using an AMF, and if Xykon fails once he cannot find her again! She also has the ability to hide in places he cannot follow (via plane shifting), and which he is even less likely to scry on.


Short and simple. Worst case scenario Xykon has to run. Once he brings all his resources down onto the dragon, the best she can do is run to some other plane and hide. She can't take Xykon out for good; she can't really take him out at all, because she can't stop him from teleporting.
She needs a low level spell to stop him teleporting, I see no reason she can't get it. Or she just needs some luck (a good listen check when Xykon tries to sneak around invisibly, or for Xykon to teleport in too close to her, which is to say not very close at all). Xykon can't stop her escaping, because even if he buys a dimensional anchor spell (which he doesn't have a slot to actually learn himself), she can just fly away in an AMF and he will be unable to follow for long. Xykon can't escape this way because he is much slower than her!


Itís entirely possible that he could just blast the dragon with an epic evocation
An Epic Evocation you're granting Xykon that he has not shown. Hey, I can play that too... the dragon kills Xykon with Epic Disintegrate. She then finds Xykon's holy Symbol with Epic Scrying, and then destroys it too. See what I did there?

rewinn
2011-09-04, 08:30 PM
Perhaps one of the reasons we know only a fraction of X's high-level spells is that he hasn't needed them to win so far. The only time post-Silver-Dragon X has come close to losing was in a situation where high-level spells were explicitly at a disadvantage, and even then it took an epic-level Paladin to do him in (almost). Since then, we've seen that X has a habit of crafting magic items (protection vs. meteor swarm and/or fire) and casting protective spells (on his phylactery in particular) and even occasionally listening to Redcloak, who has proven to be pretty much the current era's military genius (...perhaps aided by the cloak. Who knows?) It is therefore highly unlikely that X has not consider the problem of fighting someone with magic-cancellation doodads or spells, even though we haven't seen him in-comic doing so.

OTOH we have a very good idea of what ABD and V are capable of, since both have battled in extremis and lost. Thus it is unlikely that either would pull out of their pocket a new gadget or spell to cancel X's move.

But to return to the original question: how might a 17th level V defeat X single-handedly? The obvious move would be to enchant V's Seldom-Used Quarterstaff into a Seldom-Used Quarterstaff Of Lich Smiting. Or perhaps casting Explosive Runes on Xykon's copy of TvTropes, on the theory that once X starts reading it, not even explosive destruction can stop him from reading more.

Querzis
2011-09-04, 08:31 PM
2) Querzis, it's a little rich for you to be talking smack, when you made a series of mistakes earlier, not least of all that you didn't understand how Epic Spells worked.

The irony here is staggering really. Ok so first, its Kish who realized I was wrong about cloister and, as she said, that still doesnt mean Xykon doesnt have an epic blasting spell. Its Xykon for crying out loud. You dont seem to understand that, even with O-chul list, we only saw a fraction of Xykon spell list.


But it's flatly true. If Xykon inflicts enough damage on the Dragon that she's in trouble, she can escape easily every single time. There is literally no way for Xykon to stop her escaping. Xykon requires real luck to escape every time, all it takes is one lucky ambush or surprise round from the Dragon and Xykon is boned. She has access to an Oracle, and can find Xykon despite protections he might attempt, she can even find out when he'll be weakest. It's much harder for Xykon to find her.

And quite litterally everyone have been telling you for 6 frigging page that everything you wrote there is the exact opposite. Xykon can kill her with 2 maximized meteor swarm. Xykon would not die from quite a few full attack from the dragon even without his DR and thats assuming she ever get a full attack in. Xykon is an epic level sorcerer and you cant fumble scrying check, he could most likely find the dragon with a 1 and she has nowhere she can go thats out of Xykon reach. Xykon got cloister and, while hes in it (which you might remember that he pretty much always is) she cannot ambush him. The Oracle only answer one question. And once again, thats assuming Xykon, an epic-level sorcerer, got nothing against anti-magic field...a level 6 spell.

And I know thats not gonna stop you after 5 pages. Your whole tactic seems to be repeating the same thing over and over again till we get tired of it cause you absolutely wanna have the last word. Thing is, that doesnt mean you win, thats not how argument works. But you did most definitly make me tired of it at any rate so if that was your goal, good job. If that was indeed your goal then you are the greatest troll in the history of the internet, I'm impressed really. Otherwise, nothing you said change the fact that Xykon win easely. You changed the mind of absolutely no one here.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 08:47 PM
Ok so first, its Kish who realized I was wrong about cloister
Trust me, other people knew you were wrong too, but didn't bother to correct it given the other mistakes you'd made. Also, I had to correct Kish right after that, for incorrectly calculating the caster level. :smallsmile:


Xykon can kill her with 2 maximized meteor swarm.
1) We don't know Xykon can cast two 12th level spells in a day, and
2) The AMF will negate the meteors, which if you'd read my post you'd understand is a problem.


Xykon would not die from quite a few full attack from the dragon even without his DR
Prove me wrong with a calculation. Sadly, I'm not wrong, the Dragon with 6 attacks (or more) per turn will make powder out of Xykon's helpless Skeleton in no time, especially since the first attack will be a grapple (like with V), and after that Xykon can't escape at all, and is just waiting for his death.


and thats assuming she ever get a full attack in. Xykon is an epic level sorcerer and you cant fumble scrying check, he could most likely find the dragon with a 1
1) It's been explained how she's easily going to be able to hurt Xykon in any actual fight (where Xykon's plan isn't to run away),
2) You don't seem to understand how scrying works. He's also terrible at scrying, something the comic points out, and doesn't have the spell slot for Greater Scrying. AMF also blocks scrying.


and she has nowhere she can go thats out of Xykon reach. Xykon got cloister and, while hes in it (which you might remember that he pretty much always is) she cannot ambush him.
Plane Shift. Xykon can't follow her there easily if at all. Cloister can't stop the Oracle.

Quite alot of people here seem to agree with me. The people who won't change their mind need reasons to back their views up, so far they haven't presented good ones. Give me a round by round rundown on how Xykon wins, or don't expect me to believe you.

Zmflavius
2011-09-04, 08:56 PM
{{scrubbed}}

The Mad Hatter
2011-09-04, 08:57 PM
What dragon?

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-04, 08:58 PM
This isn't an argument, this is your feeling. Strangely, I'm not convinced Epic level Lich Xykon can deal with a 4th level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) if someone would just cast it on him already (especially since V has it, but will never use it again it seems because it's from a barred school, even if it's a homebrew version only used for a joke). I guess he can run away, but repeat casting will screw him pretty badly.

I really don't feel you are aruging either, I feel that your just yelling and trying to shout over points. And I am giving evidence to back up my claims, evidence that seems to satsfying everyone else in the thread. Also, that spell you linked was a joke, and it would not hurt Xykon at all. He would still meteor swarm and win.



Xykon gets 6-7 teleports maybe, what does he do when he runs out?

Xykon gets 35 teleports. Look at the spells per day for a sorceror, and remember his Cha is likily high enough to get bonus. 6-7? really? Even if we only count greater teleport he gets 21.


The Dragon flies at 150-200 feet per turn without hustling, she can cover a few miles in no time at all, and if it becomes prudent for her to escape (for some reason, let's go with it), she just flies off, and Xykon has no ability to follow her, because she is much too fast for him. It's not like Xykon can just keep teleporting a few hundred feet behind her every time she's almost out of sight, because he'll run out of teleport spells (and it's dangerous, the Dragon has crazy good senses, and might spot him), and once he loses sight of the Dragon (who still has an AMF up) he cannot find her again easily (by which time she will have recovered from whatever injury he's managed to inflict). She can also move fast underwater, create darkness to cover her escape (that she can see through, but Xykon cannot), etc. There's no possible way Xykon can play tag with her and win.

With 21-35 teleports? yes he can. Darkness creates a small blot that is next to useless in areal combat. If they are fighting by the ocean you are right, she will be able to swim away.



1) The spell does not work with the AMF up. Maybe a generous DM would rule the Dragon's tail lost 5 hit points or something, but the actual effect of the spells doesn't work.
2) Xykon is going to need to be pretty close to do this, and by close I mean he will be within a distance that the Dragon can cover in a single turn, in which case right after doing it, the Dragon will move to him with the AMF, and he's dead again.
3) We have no evidence Xykon has multiple 12th level spell slots, and indeed he'd need an extra epic feat (and thus an extra level of more) every time he has an extra one. So how many extra levels are you granting Xykon here, so he can use a spell that won't work anyway?




1) The spell won't work just because he hits her tail, once the AMF is up the spell does not work at all.
2) It's hard to imagine the number of times Xykon would need to do this before her HP's fell to zero, and every time he tries this, the Dragon will get a fix on him, move in and AMF, then he's dead... again.
3) See above. [/QUOTE]

Well, he certainly has multiable epic spell slots. At least three from Still meteor swarm, his epic dispelling, and maxmized energy drain.

And now your argument is that if Energy Drain hits a part of the dragon, it doesn't work. RAW, this is wrong, but but we will go with it. Meteor Swarm still does ALL of its damage. Or any ray attack he has. It only takes two or three of xykon's high level spells with metamagic to kill the dragon. Also, he doesn't need to Energy drain her to 0, after 3 her attacks can no longer do damage. At all.



So your argument is Xykon wins because he's cool and the plot helps him win. This is not an argument. Belkar kills Xykon with a knife, because he's cooler than him. See what I did there. You can't win arguments like this.

We agree on this. Too bad thats not what I am doing.


Plus, Xykon's "plot powered" ball (not an Artifact, he bought it from a store, it wasn't crafted by a God) has been shown to work like normal scrying... it can't penetrate the throne room, and he cites normal Scrying rules to explain how he's scrying on Miko. You're just inventing stuff out of nothing because you want Xykon to win. The Dragon's Willpower and save for Scrying is a hell of alot higher than Xykon's, plus she can be invisible 15+ hours of the day at a minimum using an AMF, and if Xykon fails once he cannot find her again! She also has the ability to hide in places he cannot follow (via plane shifting), and which he is even less likely to scry on.

something that grants you that level of scrying at will is an artifact. It seems to give an unlimited use of a level 4 spell, at will. That really, really fricken good. It was unable to get though to the throne room of one of the most powerful nations in the world. This does not mean it can't hit a dragon.




She needs a low level spell to stop him teleporting, I see no reason she can't get it. Or she just needs some luck (a good listen check when Xykon tries to sneak around invisibly, or for Xykon to teleport in too close to her, which is to say not very close at all). Xykon can't stop her escaping, because even if he buys a dimensional anchor spell (which he doesn't have a slot to actually learn himself), she can just fly away in an AMF and he will be unable to follow for long. Xykon can't escape this way because he is much slower than her!

He can get rid of the effect of dimensonal anchor with his super dispelling, even if she does have it, which she has not been shown to.





An Epic Evocation you're granting Xykon that he has not shown. Hey, I can play that too... the dragon kills Xykon with Epic Disintegrate. She then finds Xykon's holy Symbol with Epic Scrying, and then destroys it too. See what I did there?

Him having an Epic Evocation is just one way that he could win. If he has it, the dragon is toast, end of story. If not, all the other ways listed.

Also, you never talk about how she will win long term. How is she going to take out X's phylactery and deal with the army he will have when he comes after her with everything he's got after the first encounter? She will be on the defensive while he can just go ahead and make that epic spell, or learn prismatic spray.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 09:06 PM
Yeah, basically unless Xykon has a way to take down the AMF he's boned.

However, that dragon was vastly more powerful than a 17th level Vaarsuvius, which is what you aim to pit Xykon against. There needs to be a way for Vaarsuvius to actually beat down Xykon; Prismatic Sphere would stump him for example, but unless he was boneheaded enough to actually walk out of the thing it's merely an effective delaying tactic.

There you go. That took 5 seconds. Frankly, I'd guess most of the experienced D&D players on here I've read posting (like Facto and GSBD and some guy whose name I can't quite remember, Undead something?) would strongly agree with me.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-04, 09:07 PM
There you go. That took 5 seconds. Frankly, I'd guess most of the experienced D&D players on here I've read posting (like Facto and GSBD and some guy whose name I can't quite remember, Undead something?) would strongly agree with me.

And then a bunch of people gave ways to deal with AMF, so there you are:smallbiggrin:
EDIT: Also, people who you guess would support you don't count. And logging off for the night, places to be and such

137ben
2011-09-04, 09:17 PM
There you go. That took 5 seconds. Frankly, I'd guess most of the experienced D&D players on here I've read posting (like Facto and GSBD and some guy whose name I can't quite remember, Undead something?) would strongly agree with me.

Including all of the experienced players who "agreed" with you on this thread. We expressed our agreement by patiently explaining to you all the ways in which Xykon could kill the dragon.

Querzis
2011-09-04, 09:29 PM
If they are fighting by the ocean you are right, she will be able to swim away.

...why? You can teleport under water, Xykon doesnt need to breath and its not like darkness would be especially more effective there then in the air. Now of course fire spells wont be all that good underwater but Xykon got plenty of lightning spells (and hes immune to it too so its not like he'd be scared to use it just because hes also in the water.) Also you should just start ignoring him, you should be able to tell by now that the entire world could tell him hes wrong and he'd still argue.

I dont wanna boss you around of course, you can keep arguing with him if you find it amusing. I did at first after all. But it get repetitive real fast.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 09:30 PM
I really don't feel you are aruging either, I feel that your just yelling and trying to shout over points. And I am giving evidence to back up my claims, evidence that seems to satsfying everyone else in the thread. Also, that spell you linked was a joke, and it would not hurt Xykon at all. He would still meteor swarm and win.
Evidence that keeps getting proven to be factually incorrect. Look, give a round by round play or something, or if you prefer ask someone else experienced to do it for you (I just named 3 posters who seem to know a decent amount about D&D, more than I do certainly). The people agreeing with you have also been frequently wrong in this thread, and are largely resorting to arguments that give Xykon abilities we have no evidence he possesses.

Xykon would meteor swarm black tentacles... did you even read the spell description? "The tentacles are immune to all types of damage". If I made factual errors this often, I'd be a little more circumspect about whether I was "totally right" the next time. Now of course, Xykon can escape them with luck (or via a Still Greater Teleport, which he gets maybe 6-7 of), but it still amounts to the fact that Epic Xykon has to basically run away from a 4th level spell. He can't even really Superb Dispel it, because he's taking backlash damage every time, and he hasn't been shown to have more than 1 use of an Epic Spell per day, while a much weaker caster could use this spell over and over, causing Xykon plenty of problems.

Your logic is "Xykon can't be hurt by low level spells", and you're wrong. Heck, a sufficiently powerful wizard using disintegrate (a mere 6th level spell) stands a decent chance of one shotting Xykon.


Xykon gets 35 teleports. Look at the spells per day for a sorceror, and remember his Cha is likily high enough to get bonus. 6-7? really? Even if we only count greater teleport he gets 21.
What? 35 Teleports? what? I think you need to re-read the rules. Again, I invite any D&D players to back you up on this point, but you're just wrong (again).


With 21-35 teleports? yes he can. Darkness creates a small blot that is next to useless in areal combat. If they are fighting by the ocean you are right, she will be able to swim away.
How on earth does he have 21-35 teleports? And even if Xykon somehow had this many (he doesn't, you've misread the rules), they still wouldn't be enough to keep up with the Dragon, since she will be out of sight within a minute (and I'm being really charitable here to Xykon) based on her superior flight speed, and after 21-35 minutes Xykon can't keep up anymore.



Well, he certainly has multiable epic spell slots. At least three from Still meteor swarm, his epic dispelling, and maxmized energy drain.
None of which responds to what I said. Also, Epic slots are not for casting maximised versions of regular spells.


And now your argument is that if Energy Drain hits a part of the dragon, it doesn't work. RAW, this is wrong, but but we will go with it.
It does work. Think about it logically. If Xykon casts a fireball at the Dragon, and it hits the tail, while the rest of it is dissolved by the field, does the rest of the Dragon's body catch fire when the field is removed hours later? That's ridiculous. At best you can hurt the Dragon's tail, but the Dragon itself is in a field that prevents it working. It would be like saying you could teleport the whole dragon out of the field, just because you can touch the tail.


Meteor Swarm still does ALL of its damage.
If it all hits, which isn't a given. But we only know Xykon has 1 use of a 12th level slot, and if he's using it on maximised energy drain, he can't use it for this too.


Or any ray attack he has. It only takes two or three of xykon's high level spells with metamagic to kill the dragon.
1) Xykon isn't going to get more than 1 shot, this has been explained. If Xykon sticks around for more than a single round he's dead.
2) What spells? Give examples using spells Xykon actually has been shown to have.


Also, he doesn't need to Energy drain her to 0, after 3 her attacks can no longer do damage. At all.
What? What!? I'm worried you don't get how energy drain works. Even if Xykon somehow had three 12th level slots and hit three Maximised energy drains (which is impossible due to the AMF, and the fact Xykon would need to be at least level 30 to cast three 12th level spells per day, which if we added the Epic crafting feats some of you have been arguing he should get [so he can make things like Ring of Fire Immunity], pushes him up to 35!), the Dragon would still be able to do plenty of damage. You don't get how energy drain works.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels
So in this impossible scenario, the Dragon would lose 24 on her attack... but even an Ancient Black Dragon has a bonus of +40 to (an already huge) attack score... so the Dragon will still be able to rip Xykon apart while grappled very easily. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm


something that grants you that level of scrying at will is an artifact. It seems to give an unlimited use of a level 4 spell, at will.
1) he bought two of them at a store, so they're not
2) It's been described as working with normal scrying rules (crucially, including it's inability to see past scry blocking), and most importantly
3) Everything we've seen of it would be consistent with scrying with Xykon's ability to cast scry 6-7 times a day (for a minute per level usage, so that's what 3.5 hours per day at least without needing to give this object imaginary bonuses or benefits), we haven't seen Xykon scry more than that number of minutes per day yet.


That really, really fricken good. It was unable to get though to the throne room of one of the most powerful nations in the world. This does not mean it can't hit a dragon.
A throne room of a nation whose most powerful warrior is a character whose level is 12-14 (Miko), who only have one Wizard who can cast Teleport (apparently an 11th level specialist), and whose current leader is weaker than Roy. All of which pales to the power of a 15+ caster level Ancient Black Dragon, who has a ludicrous will power to add to her saves even without an AMF. The throne room wasn't even powerful enough to stop Redcloak overcoming it's affects back when he was 15th level. As for them being one of the most powerful nations in the world, we have no evidence of that, and plenty of evidence otherwise. They were conquered by an army of 30,000 Hobgoblins for heaven's sake, and Xykon who didn't do much of anything during the battle itself.


He can get rid of the effect of dimensonal anchor with his super dispelling, even if she does have it, which she has not been shown to.
Assume that's true. We have no evidence he can cast that spell more than once per day, so she'll need what, 2 or more of those (easily learnable) spells, and she gets 6 per day... not a big obstacle... did I mention Xykon suffers backlash damage everytime he uses Superb Dispelling? Or she just buys some scrolls, which is easy for a low level spell like this. Problem solved.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 09:32 PM
Including all of the experienced players who "agreed" with you on this thread. We expressed our agreement by patiently explaining to you all the ways in which Xykon could kill the dragon.

Ways that involve giving xykon better powers than we have any evidence he has? I can make the Dragon win by doing that too. I can make anyone win against anyone else by doing that.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 09:33 PM
...why? You can teleport under water, Xykon doesnt need to breath and its not like darkness would be especially more effective there then in the air. Now of course fire spells wont be all that good underwater but Xykon got plenty of lightning spells (and hes immune to it too so its not like he'd be scared to use it just because hes also in the water.) Also you should just start ignoring him, you should be able to tell by now that the entire world could tell him hes wrong and he'd still argue.

Because it will make it harder for Xykon to teleport after her, because he can't just think "teleport to the Dragon", he has to know where she is!

VanBuren
2011-09-04, 10:10 PM
You know, if your posts didn't carry a heavy tone of "God why are you all so stupid", you might find people a fair bit more receptive to your argument.

Just a thought.

Ekul
2011-09-04, 10:19 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

It's fun to speculate. Don't get too worked up about it though.

Luminescence
2011-09-04, 10:36 PM
There you go. That took 5 seconds. Frankly, I'd guess most of the experienced D&D players on here I've read posting (like Facto and GSBD and some guy whose name I can't quite remember, Undead something?) would strongly agree with me.

I've seen no indication in this thread that those posters agree with you.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-04, 10:37 PM
And looks like I'm back for one last post. Hate it when get together plans fall apart last minute, but thats life.


Evidence that keeps getting proven to be factually incorrect. Look, give a round by round play or something, or if you prefer ask someone else experienced to do it for you (I just named 3 posters who seem to know a decent amount about D&D, more than I do certainly). The people agreeing with you have also been frequently wrong in this thread, and are largely resorting to arguments that give Xykon abilities we have no evidence he possesses.


Xykon would meteor swarm black tentacles... did you even read the spell description? "The tentacles are immune to all types of damage". If I made factual errors this often, I'd be a little more circumspect about whether I was "totally right" the next time. Now of course, Xykon can escape them with luck (or via a Still Greater Teleport, which he gets maybe 6-7 of), but it still amounts to the fact that Epic Xykon has to basically run away from a 4th level spell. He can't even really Superb Dispel it, because he's taking backlash damage every time, and he hasn't been shown to have more than 1 use of an Epic Spell per day, while a much weaker caster could use this spell over and over, causing Xykon plenty of problems.

No, evidence you disagree with. Big difference. Also, I have been playing Table Top RPGS for a decade. Not too much dnd for the last year and a half since my group was introduced to GURPS (want to get back into it though) so please donít talk down to me.

Xykon would meteor swarm the person who Ėcast- the tentecles. Sorry I wasnít clear enough. Also, once again, come down off your high horse.



Your logic is "Xykon can't be hurt by low level spells", and you're wrong. Heck, a sufficiently powerful wizard using disintegrate (a mere 6th level spell) stands a decent chance of one shotting Xykon.

Not really my logic, just that your kind of over playing the ability of AMF to shut down an epic character. Also, for disintigrate to have a decent chance of killing xykon, the characters Int or Cha would have to be quite high. At the level they would reach that point, they would have much better options.



What? 35 Teleports? what? I think you need to re-read the rules. Again, I invite any D&D players to back you up on this point, but you're just wrong (again).

Teleport is a level 5 spell. It can be cast with any spell slot level 5 or higher. Assuming that he has high enough Cha to get bonus spells at every level,( to cast a level 12 spell he would have to ) thatís 7 spells at levels 5,6,7,8, and 9. Or 35 spells. Iím right (again).



How on earth does he have 21-35 teleports? And even if Xykon somehow had this many (he doesn't, you've misread the rules), they still wouldn't be enough to keep up with the Dragon, since she will be out of sight within a minute (and I'm being really charitable here to Xykon) based on her superior flight speed, and after 21-35 minutes Xykon can't keep up anymore

Too bad she has 6 seconds to get out of sight range. Also, it would be the dragon going after Xykon. Or she could not follow him and have made an enemy of an epic lich with an army, that works too.





It does work. Think about it logically. If Xykon casts a fireball at the Dragon, and it hits the tail, while the rest of it is dissolved by the field, does the rest of the Dragon's body catch fire when the field is removed hours later? That's ridiculous. At best you can hurt the Dragon's tail, but the Dragon itself is in a field that prevents it working. It would be like saying you could teleport the whole dragon out of the field, just because you can touch the tail.

A dragon does not have separate hp for its tail, any damage done to any part of its body is done to the whole dragon. Also, it doesnít matter if you are in the middle of a fireball or at the edge, you take the same damage. Does that work in real life? No, but this is not real life, its dnd.



If it all hits, which isn't a given. But we only know Xykon has 1 use of a 12th level slot, and if he's using it on maximised energy drain, he can't use it for this too.

If he misses, it still does most of its damage. Hitting only adds 2d6 bludgeoning per hit. She does get a reflex save for half if it misses though. Also, its against touch AC. Dragonís touch AC is 8, so Xykon can not miss.



1) Xykon isn't going to get more than 1 shot, this has been explained. If Xykon sticks around for more than a single round he's dead.
2) What spells? Give examples using spells Xykon actually has been shown to have.

It has been explained wrongly. For one thing, the range on Xykonís spells is significant. He could hit the dragon with the dragon was still far enough away that a single move action would not be enough to get into base to base.




What? What!? I'm worried you don't get how energy drain works. Even if Xykon somehow had three 12th level slots and hit three Maximised energy drains (which is impossible due to the AMF, and the fact Xykon would need to be at least level 30 to cast three 12th level spells per day, which if we added the Epic crafting feat some of you have been arguing he should get [so he can make things like Ring of Fire Immunity], pushes him up to 35!), the Dragon would still be able to do plenty of damage. You don't get how energy drain works.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels
So in this impossible scenario, the Dragon would lose 24 on her attack... but even an Ancient Black Dragon has a bonus of +40 to (an already huge) attack score... so the Dragon will still be able to rip Xykon apart while grappled very easily. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm



1) he bought two of them at a store, so they're not
2) It's been described as working with normal scrying rules (crucially, including it's inability to see past scry blocking), and most importantly
3) Everything we've seen of it would be consistent with scrying with Xykon's ability to cast scry 6-7 times a day (for a minute per level usage, so that's what 3.5 hours per day at least without needing to give this object imaginary bonuses or benefits), we haven't seen Xykon scry more than that number of minutes per day yet.


A throne room of a nation whose most powerful warrior is a character whose level is 12-14 (Miko), who only have one Wizard who can cast Teleport (apparently an 11th level specialist), and whose current leader is weaker than Roy. All of which pales to the power of a 15+ caster level Ancient Black Dragon, who has a ludicrous will power to add to her saves even without an AMF. The throne room wasn't even powerful enough to stop Redcloak overcoming it's affects back when he was 15th level. As for them being one of the most powerful nations in the world, we have no evidence of that, and plenty of evidence otherwise. They were conquered by an army of 30,000 Hobgoblins for heaven's sake, and Xykon who didn't do much of anything during the battle itself.

A throne room that was built by an epic paladin with massive resources and the favor of 12 gods behind him. The defense there have been built up over generations.Also, I'm not really debating this point. I'm telling you that something that gives you a 4th level spell at will is an artifact, or at least a major wonderous item. The fact is it doesn;t have rules in comic. But in an actual dnd -game- it would be super powerful.



Assume that's true. We have no evidence he can cast that spell more than once per day, so she'll need what, 2 or more of those (easily learnable) spells, and she gets 6 per day... not a big obstacle... did I mention Xykon suffers backlash damage everytime he uses Superb Dispelling? Or she just buys some scrolls, which is easy for a low level spell like this. Problem solved.

K, xykon gets scrolls of dispel magic. And thatís assuming the scrolls overcome his SR, or that he fails his save. Soul splice V failed to hit him with the spell, you will notice.

Also, still nothing on the long term victory plan. Always ignore that part, donít you? I havenít ignored your requests for a round by round slug fest (and considering we are dealing with characters who donít have actual full rules for them, thatís rather hard) you just donít think the whack-a-mole plan will work because you misunderstood how spells work, and donít like the hitting the parts that stick out plan because the rules are inconvenient.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 10:37 PM
I've seen no indication in this thread that those posters agree with you.

I never said as much, but you feel free to ask them, since the poster challenging me dismissed your opinion (as a Pixie) as having no value.

Luminescence
2011-09-04, 10:42 PM
I never said as much, but you feel free to ask them, since the poster challenging me dismissed your opinion (as a Pixie) as having no value.

I wasn't discussing Zmflavius, though. You have supposed that the listed posters would agree with you. The onus is on you. Do suppositions circumvent the need for evidence?

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-04, 11:13 PM
Xykon would meteor swarm the person who Ėcast- the tentecles. Sorry I wasnít clear enough. Also, once again, come down off your high horse.
And if the person couldn't be hit so easily? Say they had cast a pretty straight forward defensive spell, like Wall of Force, or say they were invisible, or whatever. But that's not even the point, the point is Xykon being Epic doesn't mean lower spells are useless against him, like this one would clearly be very useful against him, like disintegrate (a mere 6th level spell like AMF) would have a very good chance of one shotting him from certain characters. Heck, a 17th level V could cast Maximised Disintegrate, dealing 204 base damage, so even with damage reduction and the like, Xykon is probably getting one shot without further protection.


Not really my logic, just that your kind of over playing the ability of AMF to shut down an epic character.
Not an Epic character per se, just Xykon, who is horribly unoptimised. I mean, no question Haerta or Ganonron http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Ganonron.png would own the Dragon 5 ways from Sunday (and I only don't include Jephton http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Jephton2.png because we don't know much about him, chances are he's fine too). Xykon though... he's more of a "one city" type of Villain, and even that is pushing.


Teleport is a level 5 spell. It can be cast with any spell slot level 5 or higher.
I'll stop your right there. The only teleport spell we know of Xykon having is Greater Teleport, and that's a 7th level spell. We know 3/4 of Xykon's 5th level spells, and Teleport isn't one of them, so you can't just prop him Teleport, because we have no evidence he has it, and logic would hint pretty strongly he doesn't (we would he need both? Not a cut and dry reason, but nonetheless, you can't just give it to him because it suits you).


Assuming that he has high enough Cha to get bonus spells at every level,( to cast a level 12 spell he would have to ) thatís 7 spells at levels 5,6,7,8, and 9. Or 35 spells. Iím right (again).
Ah. You're confusing Wizards with Sorcerers. Read here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210883&page=9
Question

Can't your basic Wiz put a level 2 spell into a level 3 slot? Most don't do that because level 3 spells normally trump level 2s as far as utility, but isn't it technically possible? I know Sorcerers can.
Answer

Er, Sorcerers can't, actually. Without the Heighten Spell metamagic feat they have no way to circumvent their limitations on spells per level per day.

Anyway though, Wizards and other prepared spellcasters can indeed do that, albeit to no benefit without the Heighten Spell feat.
So he can only use 7th level slots for Greater Teleport, not 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, etc. Even if he could, since he has Greater Teleport and not Teleport, that would still only be 22 (7+7+7+1) known spell slots he could use on it, and doing so would remove alot of the slots he needs to attack under your confusing plan, and he would still lose the Dragon, because he's run out of teleports trying to keep up, long before her AMF runs out.


Too bad she has 6 seconds to get out of sight range.
And what happens after 6 seconds (the length of 1 round)? Not what you're thinking I fear.


Also, it would be the dragon going after Xykon. Or she could not follow him and have made an enemy of an epic lich with an army, that works too.
So Xykon won't pursue? He'll just run. In which case she doesn't have to worry about when she eventually drops the AMF, turns invisible, scrys/oracles on Xykon, and Teleports to him invisibly, possibly with some prep.


A dragon does not have separate hp for its tail, any damage done to any part of its body is done to the whole dragon. Also, it doesnít matter if you are in the middle of a fireball or at the edge, you take the same damage. Does that work in real life? No, but this is not real life, its dnd.
Any spell which is supposed to effect the whole Dragon won't work, and that's energy drain to a T. Even granting damage to the tail, that's minus 5 HP's per negative level, trivial to the Dragon. The Dragon is also not standing still, or letting Xykon flank her, which is why the only one actually giving scenarios round by round on how the fight goes down is me, because you have no explanation as to how Xykon is sneaking up and attacking the tail without the Dragon doing anything in response.


If he misses, it still does most of its damage. Hitting only adds 2d6 bludgeoning per hit. She does get a reflex save for half if it misses though. Also, its against touch AC. Dragonís touch AC is 8, so Xykon can not miss.
Ignore for a minute that Xykon missed O'Chul and V, or any calculation about missing. The Dragon has an AMF on, so the spheres will dissolve into nothing when they hit anyway.


It has been explained wrongly. For one thing, the range on Xykonís spells is significant. He could hit the dragon with the dragon was still far enough away that a single move action would not be enough to get into base to base.
With what? Meteor Swarm yes, but it will not work because the Dragon merely has to keep the field between her and the spheres, and if she sees 4 meteors coming towards her from 500 feet away, she's obviously going to make sure her whole body is in the field. 7 Meteors later Xykon has not hurt the Dragon, and is out of Meteors. Next? Energy drain has a range of 90 feet even for a 27th level Sorcerer, and that is inside the range the Dragon can move in one turn. Next?


A throne room that was built by an epic paladin with massive resources and the favor of 12 gods behind him. The defense there have been built up over generations.
Pure invention on your part, and what does an Epic Paladin have to do with it? What Paladin spells does he cast that make a difference here? Redcloak, a 15th level Cleric, could overcome the effects!


Also, I'm not really debating this point. I'm telling you that something that gives you a 4th level spell at will is an artifact, or at least a major wonderous item. The fact is it doesn;t have rules in comic. But in an actual dnd -game- it would be super powerful.
No evidence it does this, it's shown abilities can be explained using the game rules anyway, and certainly can be explained in a way that falls far short of Artifact type power.


K, xykon gets scrolls of dispel magic. And thatís assuming the scrolls overcome his SR, or that he fails his save. Soul splice V failed to hit him with the spell, you will notice.
V missed the spell because Xykon dodged, not because of SR. The point is the Dragon has a means to stop Xykon escaping, and Xykon can't always have a stack of scrolls handy to help him. Conversely, the Dragon can't be prevented from escaping. This is a big problem for your plans.


Also, still nothing on the long term victory plan. Always ignore that part, donít you? I havenít ignored your requests for a round by round slug fest (and considering we are dealing with characters who donít have actual full rules for them, thatís rather hard) you just donít think the whack-a-mole plan will work because you misunderstood how spells work, and donít like the hitting the parts that stick out plan because the rules are inconvenient.

You've had it explained how long term the Dragon wins, I'm confused how you think Xykon does. What possible plan can Xykon use that will work, which does not involve Xykon becoming more powerful (and hey, the Dragon can get more powerful too if we're going to just imagine things)? Xykon has no means of inflicting damage on the Dragon and then preventing her from escaping, which since Xykon can't come close to 1 shotting her is a problem to put it mildly.

Give me the play by play of how Xykon wins, long term or short term. I'll get you started:
Round 1
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif ???
:xykon: ???

Mutant Sheep
2011-09-04, 11:48 PM
Give me the play by play of how Xykon wins, long term or short term. I'll get you started:
Round 1
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif ???
:xykon: ???

Most of your play by plays consist of
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gifAMF
:xykon: I AM SCARED WHAHAHA *cries*
Round 2
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif DIE NOW
:xykon: *dies instantly*

Other people have made nice long ones with stuff and things. Maybe if you read the thread, you would know that. See, its FUN being talked down to! ALOT OF FUN!

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-05, 12:06 AM
[/I]And if the person couldn't be hit so easily? Say they had cast a pretty straight forward defensive spell, like Wall of Force, or say they were invisible, or whatever. But that's not even the point, the point is Xykon being Epic doesn't mean lower spells are useless against him, like this one would clearly be very useful against him, like disintegrate (a mere 6th level spell like AMF) would have a very good chance of one shotting him from certain characters. Heck, a 17th level V could cast Maximised Disintegrate, dealing 204 base damage, so even with damage reduction and the like, Xykon is probably getting one shot without further protection.

Then its not the low level spell stopping Xykon, its the high level one. Besides, I am not saying that low level spells become useless, just that at epic level AMF does not shut casters down completely.


Not an Epic character per se, just Xykon, who is horribly unoptimised. I mean, no question Haerta or Ganonron would own the Dragon 5 ways from Sunday (and I only don't include Jephton because we don't know much about him, chances are he's fine too). Xykon though... he's more of a "one city" type of Villain, and even that is pushing.

Your joking right? You must be. Look in the epic level hand book at the back. You see those evil wizards from the different settings that have had plans that threaten the world? you might notice many of them are at or below Xykon's power level. You might also noticed they aren't perfectly optimised. If I sat down right now and made the -worst- possible level 27 lich I could, it could take out a country in a standard dnd setting unless a big hero stepped in.



I'll stop your right there. The only teleport spell we know of Xykon having is Greater Teleport, and that's a 7th level spell. We know 3/4 of Xykon's 5th level spells, and Teleport isn't one of them, so you can't just prop him Teleport, because we have no evidence he has it, and logic would hint pretty strongly he doesn't (we would he need both? Not a cut and dry reason, but nonetheless, you can't just give it to him because it suits you).


Ah. You're confusing Wizards with Sorcerers. Read here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210883&page=9
Question

Answer

So he can only use 7th level slots for Greater Teleport, not 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, etc. Even if he could, since he has Greater Teleport and not Teleport, that would still only be 22 (7+7+7+1) known spell slots he could use on it, and doing so would remove alot of the slots he needs to attack under your confusing plan, and he would still lose the Dragon, because he's run out of teleports trying to keep up, long before her AMF runs out.

Fun fact? a forum post isn't proof of rules. You know what is proof of rules? the SRD. "The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level." you will notice it says "spellcaster" not "wizard".

If you want to just say greater teleport, its 22. Still more then enough. You will notice it was the bottom number given in a range when I first brought this up.



And what happens after 6 seconds (the length of 1 round)? Not what you're thinking I fear.

After 6 second the dragon is not out of his sight range if it is running away, might still very well be in range of his spells, such as the 1480 ft range of meteor swarm, and if not he could very easily still catch up.


So Xykon won't pursue? He'll just run. In which case she doesn't have to worry about when she eventually drops the AMF, turns invisible, scrys/oracles on Xykon, and Teleports to him invisibly, possibly with some prep.

Any pause for build up is in Xykon's favor. He has minions, he has far greater resources. And he only has to get around one trick to win easily.



Any spell which is supposed to effect the whole Dragon won't work, and that's energy drain to a T. Even granting damage to the tail, that's minus 5 HP's per negative level, trivial to the Dragon. The Dragon is also not standing still, or letting Xykon flank her, which is why the only one actually giving scenarios round by round on how the fight goes down is me, because you have no explanation as to how Xykon is sneaking up and attacking the tail without the Dragon doing anything in response.

Ignore for a minute that Xykon missed O'Chul and V, or any calculation about missing. The Dragon has an AMF on, so the spheres will dissolve into nothing when they hit anyway.

With what? Meteor Swarm yes, but it will not work because the Dragon merely has to keep the field between her and the spheres, and if she sees 4 meteors coming towards her from 500 feet away, she's obviously going to make sure her whole body is in the field. 7 Meteors later Xykon has not hurt the Dragon, and is out of Meteors. Next? Energy drain has a range of 90 feet even for a 27th level Sorcerer, and that is inside the range the Dragon can move in one turn. Next?

O'chul and V had a touch AC greater then 8. The dragon does not, also we are going off of rules here, not comic. If we were going of comic once again the fact that one character has a name kind of clinches it.

The dragon, by the rules of dnd, does not get to suddenly shift postion when attacked so it is in a better place. She might get a plus 5 bonus to her touch ac for aiming for a specfic part. Either way, by the rules, xykon can not miss and will do full damage.



Pure invention on your part, and what does an Epic Paladin have to do with it? What Paladin spells does he cast that make a difference here? Redcloak, a 15th level Cleric, could overcome the effects!


No evidence it does this, it's shown abilities can be explained using the game rules anyway, and certainly can be explained in a way that falls far short of Artifact type power.


...how is it pure invention on my part?:smallconfused: No, really, you don't think that the strongest bastion of good in the southern lands didn't get some beefy magics when building a castle?



V missed the spell because Xykon dodged, not because of SR. The point is the Dragon has a means to stop Xykon escaping, and Xykon can't always have a stack of scrolls handy to help him. Conversely, the Dragon can't be prevented from escaping. This is a big problem for your plans.

Not really, as I have said, any break in the combat goes better for Xykon. If the dragon runs it either has to keep on running or it is done for. Also, a basic scroll would be at the caster level that the spell could first be cast at, it would have very little chance of getting though. Also, as much as you seem to hate people implying Xykon might have tricks not shown, you sure do love giving stuff to the dragon.



You've had it explained how long term the Dragon wins, I'm confused how you think Xykon does. What possible plan can Xykon use that will work, which does not involve Xykon becoming more powerful (and hey, the Dragon can get more powerful too if we're going to just imagine things)? Xykon has no means of inflicting damage on the Dragon and then preventing her from escaping, which since Xykon can't come close to 1 shotting her is a problem to put it mildly.

Well, finger of death might do it in one shoot, not the best odds but there you go.

Getting back on topic, you have never said how the dragon will stop xykon from reforming if it somehow does destroy him, learning one epic evocation spell or getting a bunch of disjuction scrolls to an army of hobgoblin minions, or just triple teaming her with Redcloak and Tsukiko taking advantage of AMF blindspots. Xykon can't lose in the long term. In the short term, he can either win by hitting blind spots with meteor swarm or retreat. And once again this is all assuming he isn't prepared to deal with AMF, which he very well might be. Feel free to respond to that last line with how Xykon only wins when given powers not shown and ignore everything else.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-05, 02:27 AM
Then its not the low level spell stopping Xykon, its the high level one. Besides, I am not saying that low level spells become useless, just that at epic level AMF does not shut casters down completely.
Maximised Disintegrate by a 17th level V is just optimising what a regular Disintegrate could do with luck. But sure, let's discount Maximized Disintegrate. Instead have it cast by a 20th level V, and the damage from a regular 6th level Disintegrate probably kills Xykon anyway. So much for the theory low level spells can't hurt the mighty Epic Lich Xykon.


Your joking right? You must be. Look in the epic level hand book at the back. You see those evil wizards from the different settings that have had plans that threaten the world? you might notice many of them are at or below Xykon's power level. You might also noticed they aren't perfectly optimised. If I sat down right now and made the -worst- possible level 27 lich I could, it could take out a country in a standard dnd setting unless a big hero stepped in.
I'm not really interested in what hypothetical characters (with unspecified) abilities can do in hypothetical (unspecified) worlds, I'm interested in what actual Xykon can do in this World. It seems he can't even beat a singular Black Dragon, so taking over countries by himself seems way above his paygrade. And that's not surprising, because so far he's been beating by Roy, Lirian, Soon's Ghost and a Silver Dragon (of a significantly lower level than the Black one he's being compared to now). His spells are horribly optimised for conquering countries as well, frankly Tarquin seems a much more serious threat.

But even if that off the cuff remark about him is wrong, it doesn't make him any more or less likely to beat the Dragon.


Fun fact? a forum post isn't proof of rules. You know what is proof of rules? the SRD. "The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level." you will notice it says "spellcaster" not "wizard".
And yet I'm quite confident Zevox is correct, and you're wrong. You're also reading it wrong, because Sorcerers don't have slots. To quote http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Jephton2.png "I don't need to prepare spell slots". Sorcerers instead have known spells, and they can cast their known spells a set number of times per day. They don't have slots per se. I welcome an actual D&D expert's opinion on it, after all the errors I've seen you make your interpretation doesn't carry alot of weight with me.


If you want to just say greater teleport, its 22. Still more then enough. You will notice it was the bottom number given in a range when I first brought this up.
How is it more than enough? I explained already how the Dragon is going to be able to go out of sight within a minute (less, but I'll be charitable) owing to vastly superior travel speed, so Xykon can Teleport to catch up 22 times... which will give him 22 minutes... but that is much, much less time than the AMF lasts, so after 22 minutes Xykon has exhausted his (non-existent) ability to catch up with Teleports, and he loses the Dragon.


After 6 second the dragon is not out of his sight range if it is running away, might still very well be in range of his spells, such as the 1480 ft range of meteor swarm, and if not he could very easily still catch up.
The Dragon that is running away (and it's unclear why she has to run away, but if she did) has an AMF around her... all she has to do is make sure the AMF (which covers almost every inch of her) is between her and the attack. The Dragon can also dodge these spheres too. The Dragon can further complicate matters by using darkness to hide, or going underwater. And the Dragon's senses are vastly superior to Xykon's, all the advantages lie with her in an aerial battle/escape. Not to mention any part of the Dragon outside the field has damage reduction as well.

I'm not clear on why the Dragon needs to run away, but if she does, she can easily do so.


Any pause for build up is in Xykon's favor. He has minions, he has far greater resources. And he only has to get around one trick to win easily.
You keep saying this over and over like it's been established, but it hasn't been. Xykon has nobody working for him (except for maybe the MITD who we know nothing about, and who is horribly ineffective at carrying out any order) who is going to change the outcome of this fight, nor do I understand why Xykon gets help (if he needs Redcloak to Gate in beings who could beat a Dragon, assuming Redcloak can do such a thing, Xykon didn't actually win... Redcloak did. Xykon contributed nothing to the victory... plus Gate wouldn't work against the AMF, summoned creatures wink out of existence). I also think the Dragon has proven to use prep much more effectively, and had a large family while alive who would be much more dangerous. Calling Dragons loners doesn't change the fact that even one additional Dragon would be devastating to Xykon, whereas all the help Xykon could get will be irrelevant.


The dragon, by the rules of dnd, does not get to suddenly shift postion when attacked so it is in a better place. She might get a plus 5 bonus to her touch ac for aiming for a specfic part. Either way, by the rules, xykon can not miss and will do full damage.
I'm afraid it's you who is wrong here, Xykon can miss, and he has before. Creatures can dodge when being attacked. If I tell the DM "I'm aiming for the Dragon's tail as she moves through the air at a speed of 30 feet per second" there is no way the DM is giving you ordinary aiming odds. In addition, I doubt any DM is going to rule that just hitting the dragons tail and nothing else results in full damage. You say "that's real life, but not the game", but every DM is going to factor reality into what you've done. When you tell them "all my attacks are only aimed at the Dragon's tail", they're not giving you the win if you inflict 400 HP of damage on their tail, more likely the tail falls off.
NB- speaking of Rules, it says Dragons Favour Improved Initiative, so the Dragon likely does have a bonus on initiative, and going first.


Not really, as I have said, any break in the combat goes better for Xykon. If the dragon runs it either has to keep on running or it is done for. Also, a basic scroll would be at the caster level that the spell could first be cast at, it would have very little chance of getting though. Also, as much as you seem to hate people implying Xykon might have tricks not shown, you sure do love giving stuff to the dragon.
The Dragon doesn't need dimensional anchor to win, but it's easy to imagine her getting it if she keeps being bothered by a pesky Lich.


Well, finger of death might do it in one shoot, not the best odds but there you go.
Finger of death maximised makes almost no difference to the spell. That's one. Two is that every time you use this, you have one less use of your 6-7 teleport spells. Three is that the range is the same as energy drain, which is terrible, and means Xykon will be grappled after he fires it. Four is that this spell has a pitiful chance of affecting a Dragon of this level, do you have any idea how high even an Ancient Black Dragon's Constitution and Fortitude Bonus are?!


Getting back on topic, you have never said how the dragon will stop xykon from reforming if it somehow does destroy him,
I did actually. Xykon will take weeks to reform. All the Dragon has to do during this time is leisurely go to the Oracle, find out where he needs to go to destroy Xykon's Phalactery, and then she does so.


learning one epic evocation spell or getting a bunch of disjuction scrolls to an army of hobgoblin minions, or just triple teaming her with Redcloak and Tsukiko taking advantage of AMF blindspots.
a) giving Xykon powers we have no evidence he has... again, I can do this to make anyone ever beat anyone else.
b) Army of Hobgoblins who get to the Dragon how? Xykon can teleport 9 of them with him, or is the Dragon just flying at his army and letting them charge her as a group while she politely waits on the ground for them to swamp her?
c) So Xykon needs other people to help out, people who will have little chance of harming the Dragon, and who will probably be one shot by the Dragon.

Once again I ask you to give me the play by play of how Xykon wins, long term or short term. I'll get you started:
Round 1
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif ???
:xykon: ???

Take as many rounds as you need to explain how Xykon wins, or as few.

I'm happy for you to throw about your own scenarios, but here's how your current ones seem to be going:
*The Dragon and Xykon start off separated by let's say 300 feet?*
Round 1
(Xykon wins initiative, even though Dragons favour an initiative boosting feat, and it seems wholly unlikely. Heck, the Dragon won initiative with V multiple times, but whatever)
:xykon: Casts Maximised Meteor Swarm at Dragon
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Casts AMF
Round 2
:xykon: Aims Meteor Swarm at Dragon's vulnerable bits
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Dragon has no vulnerable bits exposed, or just keeps the field in front of them, as she advances on Xykon, she is capable of bridging the entire gap in a single turn by hustling, grappling Xykon. Even if Xykon hits the Dragon's tail though, the Dragon's still fine (no DM is going to rule your spell aimed exclusively at her tail does damage to all of her, and a regular meteor swarm still doesn't kill the dragon even if you could hit her with it, even if Xykon hit her with 2 maximised meteor swarms it wouldn't be enough, assuming he hits with all the spheres on a moving target, and any part he hits has damage reduction!), and now the Dragon has Xykon helpless in an AMF.
Round 3
:xykon: Trapped, can't do anything
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Begins crushing the life out of Xykon with 6 attacks per round
[continue round 3 until Xykon is dead]

Is that your plan? Or is your plan for the Dragon not to fit herself into her AMF at a range of 1400 feet, while Xykon shoots meteors? Why would the Dragon not just wait out the meteors while safe in the field, and advance on Xykon as he ran out, or just keeping the field in front of her? Why is the Dragon a moron?

Interestingly, against a Red Dragon with the same abilities Xykon is even more boned, since the Red Dragon will laugh off the fire damage... but I thought no Dragon of said level could ever defeat an Epic Sorcerer?

AgentofOdd
2011-09-05, 04:14 AM
a) giving Xykon powers we have no evidence he has... again, I can do this to make anyone ever beat anyone else.There is a difference between conjuring up abilities from thin air, and inferring Xykon could have an ability based on some fairly reasonable assumptions. Sure, there's no 100% proof that he could cast an epic kill spell, but let's put it this way. If you were the Black Dragon and had to fight Xykon, would you completely dismiss the possibility that he'd have an anti-magic bypassing/destroying epic spell? Lets not forget, the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm) for epic spells doesn't include a limit for how many you can know.

Incidentally, no one has commented on my admittedly slapstick kill Xykon tactic. Can I assume it's because it meets everyone's approval?

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-05, 04:42 AM
Sure, there's no 100% proof that he could cast an epic kill spell
There's no proof at all, it's pure speculation. Frankly 3 Epic spells for a level 27 Sorcerer seems like plenty to me, I'm not going to invert the process of reasoning because it helps Xykon win the fight. I can make the same sort of "can't disprove a negative" assumptions about the Dragon, eg "if you're Xykon are you willing to bet the Dragon doesn't have XYZ?!" Maybe the Dragon can bring Epic Rings to the fights, and uber powerful swords with Disruption Spells on them... can you disprove it?

That's a ridiculous way to have a compare them, that's a ridiculous way to compare anything.

AgentofOdd
2011-09-05, 04:52 AM
There's no proof at all, it's pure speculation. Frankly 3 Epic spells for a level 27 Sorcerer seems like plenty to me, I'm not going to invert the process of reasoning because it helps Xykon win the fight. I can make the same sort of "can't disprove a negative" assumptions about the Dragon, eg "if you're Xykon are you willing to bet the Dragon doesn't have XYZ?!" Maybe the Dragon can bring Epic Rings to the fights, and uber powerful swords with Disruption Spells on them... can you disprove it?I do wonder why you don't distinguish between let's assume anything, and xyz is probable because. You were able to speculate the dragon could have Improved Initiative, I'm merely doing the same. For that matter, aren't you speculating how many epic spells Xykon could have?

To repeat myself, if you were the dragon, would you enter a battle with Xykon w/o considering the threat of an anti-magic bypassing/ignoring kill spell? Not asking if you'd think about Xykon secretly being a disguised god, or anything outlandish.

MagusBloodsoak
2011-09-05, 05:46 AM
Nothing I'm speculating on is being used as an argument, they are two separate things. For instance, I speculate Jephton would beat Xykon pretty handily, but since I have no evidence I do not make the case he will.

As you can see from my examples, while I speculate it's exceedingly likely the Dragon would have improved initiative, I don't assume it for the fight, and even allow Xykon to go first in some of these scenarios.

There is no evidence suggesting it is "probable" Xykon has more Epic spells. Even if this was hinted at, it wouldn't be enough to give them to him, you can't just assume he has something because it's vaguely hinted at. However here it isn't even hinted at, it's totally made up.

AgentofOdd
2011-09-05, 06:17 AM
Nothing I'm speculating on is being used as an argument, they are two separate things. For instance, I speculate Jephton would beat Xykon pretty handily, but since I have no evidence I do not make the case he will.Your distaste for speculation is noted. I must ask though, we all know that we're speculating about Xykon's epic spells, why do you keep insisting we have no direct evidence? We already know that for goodness sakes, we read the comic. I do believe most people would agree that going strictly by what we know of Xykon's spell list and equipment, he'll have problems with anti-magic. The thing is, we just consider it unlikely (not impossible) he'd be brought down by that tactic.
There is no evidence suggesting it is "probable" Xykon has more Epic spells. Even if this was hinted at, it wouldn't be enough to give them to him, you can't just assume he has something because it's vaguely hinted at. However here it isn't even hinted at, it's totally made up.People have given evidence for the probable. Mages fear antimagic, the ones with any brains will come up with some countermeasure. Xykon is a kill happy fellow obsessed with looking badass, yet his known epic spells are all not flashy, and defensive, does that make sense?

It all boils down to my fight scenario. If you're 100% positive Xykon will not have any epic spells that'll disrupt your antimagic strategy, then I'll just preemptively agree to disagree since this debate has gone on for too long. However, if you think you'll worry about any possible death dealing epic magic, then to be quite honest, your POV doesn't differ much from most people here. Only real difference of opinion would be on the how probable it is for Xykon to have such a spell.

Zmflavius
2011-09-05, 08:56 AM
I never said as much, but you feel free to ask them, since the poster challenging me dismissed your opinion (as a Pixie) as having no value.

Yes, yes you did.



Quite alot of people here seem to agree with me. The people who won't change their mind need reasons to back their views up, so far they haven't presented good ones. Give me a round by round rundown on how Xykon wins, or don't expect me to believe you.


Quote them.

None should be pixies, or created in the past month.

Are you really incapable of figuring out why it is preferable that you don't cite accounts which have fewer than 50 posts, and were created recently as "supporters?"

137ben
2011-09-05, 09:52 AM
I'm not really interested in what hypothetical characters (with unspecified) abilities can do in hypothetical (unspecified) worlds, I'm interested in what actual Xykon can do in this World..
This made me laugh. Try reading the epic level handbook, it gives complete statistics for the casters he was referring to, not "unspecified" abilities. Oh, and they are specified as being in Faurun and Greyhawk, both of which have had many, many books published detailing the worlds. On the otherhand, Xykon has a ton of unspecified game statistics, and the OOTS world has had substantially fewer detailed world publications than either greyhawk or faurun.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-05, 10:09 AM
Maximised Disintegrate by a 17th level V is just optimising what a regular Disintegrate could do with luck. But sure, let's discount Maximized Disintegrate. Instead have it cast by a 20th level V, and the damage from a regular 6th level Disintegrate probably kills Xykon anyway. So much for the theory low level spells can't hurt the mighty Epic Lich Xykon.

way to keep ignoring what I am saying dude, super classy. I'm not saying that that low level spells can't hurt him, so stop saying that I am. I'm saying that demanding that a dragon can beat xykon cause of one spell is very short sighted.



I'm not really interested in what hypothetical characters (with unspecified) abilities can do in hypothetical (unspecified) worlds, I'm interested in what actual Xykon can do in this World. It seems he can't even beat a singular Black Dragon, so taking over countries by himself seems way above his paygrade. And that's not surprising, because so far he's been beating by Roy, Lirian, Soon's Ghost and a Silver Dragon (of a significantly lower level than the Black one he's being compared to now). His spells are horribly optimised for conquering countries as well, frankly Tarquin seems a much more serious threat.

These character are not hypothetical, not unspecified, and from specific worlds. They have full stat blocks and are from forgotten realms and Erbberon. You want an example? Szass Tam, the head of the Red Wizards of They, is two levels higher then xykon. Thats the kind of power level we are dealing with. He also deals mostly in necromancy, which for an arcane caster is poorly optmised. Also, did you miss the part where he took over a country and the rest of the southern lands would not lift a finger because they were scared he would target them next? He his a powerful sorceror with an army in the tens of thousands going after a power that could destroy creation itself. He really can't be playing at a higher scale of villiany.





And yet I'm quite confident Zevox is correct, and you're wrong. You're also reading it wrong, because Sorcerers don't have slots. To quote http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Jephton2.png "I don't need to prepare spell slots". Sorcerers instead have known spells, and they can cast their known spells a set number of times per day. They don't have slots per se. I welcome an actual D&D expert's opinion on it, after all the errors I've seen you make your interpretation doesn't carry alot of weight with me.

Yeah, the only real error I've made was a mistake at the start about how a AMF works. You, on the other hand? Mistake about how AoE damage works. Mistake about what the plus 40 in attack section of the monster entry of the ABD means. Mistake about how often a touch attack would hit a dragon. Mistake about how likly the dragon is to go first. Mistake about teleport giving you a bonus round automatically. (in this senario where the people are staying in sight range as they teleport around? no) mistake about how HP and body parts work, mistake about how many maxmized meteor swarms Xykon can cast at minimum (more on that later) and mistake about how spells work. Sorcerors have spell slots. Jephton doesn't not because he is a sorceror, but because he twisted the rules with multi-class cheese. (The joke is he got sent to hell because of it.) Think about it. If what you say is true, and he gets that ability from a basic class, whats the joke? Look at how metamagic works. "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal" They couldn't use metamagic. if sorcerors didn't have spell slots. Heck, let me give you a better quote. "Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot" . I give you a direct quote from the SRD and your come back is "nah, I'm not going to believe it." So really, get down off your high horse kid, you've been ignoring arugments and getting facts wrong while trying to cover with smugness. Its annoying and it would drive people away from your side even if you had a leg to stand on.




How is it more than enough? I explained already how the Dragon is going to be able to go out of sight within a minute (less, but I'll be charitable) owing to vastly superior travel speed, so Xykon can Teleport to catch up 22 times... which will give him 22 minutes... but that is much, much less time than the AMF lasts, so after 22 minutes Xykon has exhausted his (non-existent) ability to catch up with Teleports, and he loses the Dragon.

Teleports with in a thosuand feet, the dragons doesn't move over 3000 feet a turn, meteor swarm. Repeat just a few times and the dragon is dead.



The Dragon that is running away (and it's unclear why she has to run away, but if she did) has an AMF around her... all she has to do is make sure the AMF (which covers almost every inch of her) is between her and the attack. The Dragon can also dodge these spheres too. The Dragon can further complicate matters by using darkness to hide, or going underwater. And the Dragon's senses are vastly superior to Xykon's, all the advantages lie with her in an aerial battle/escape. Not to mention any part of the Dragon outside the field has damage reduction as well.

Why do you keep saying she can dodge? Her Touch AC is 8. Will you finally see that if I repeat three time that her Touch AC is 8? because her Touch AC is 8. Meteor Swarm is a ranged Touch Attack. Xykon's BAB might suck but it is still high enough that he can not miss. At all. Ever.

The water means that they would have to be fighting by a large body of it. If that is the case this part I admitted before, she will be able to swim away.

Darkness is useless. If she has it up on herself, AMF is down and not xykon just needs to fire into the blob without aiming. Actually, if she used it at all she has AMF down.

Dragon's have pretty crappy damage reduction, actually. Since it is overcome by magic. Got a plus one sword? awesome, you get passed the DR. So do spells, by the way.

And finally, the dragon's body is in what ever postion it is in at the end of its turn. It does not get to move when Xykon does to block its tail from him. Dnd is turn based, not real time.




You keep saying this over and over like it's been established, but it hasn't been. Xykon has nobody working for him (except for maybe the MITD who we know nothing about, and who is horribly ineffective at carrying out any order) who is going to change the outcome of this fight, nor do I understand why Xykon gets help (if he needs Redcloak to Gate in beings who could beat a Dragon, assuming Redcloak can do such a thing, Xykon didn't actually win... Redcloak did. Xykon contributed nothing to the victory... plus Gate wouldn't work against the AMF, summoned creatures wink out of existence). I also think the Dragon has proven to use prep much more effectively, and had a large family while alive who would be much more dangerous. Calling Dragons loners doesn't change the fact that even one additional Dragon would be devastating to Xykon, whereas all the help Xykon could get will be irrelevant.

The dragon is not shown to have anybody to call upon. And its metallic dragons who are loners. Chromatic dragons, on the other hand, go a step passed that. If she sent out the word that she needed help she would be much more likely to find her horde pillaged while she was out then to actually get another dragon.

And 500 hobgoblin clerics with disjunction scrolls would end it. As I mentioned before, Redcloak and Tsukiko with the dragon means it can never focus on one without putting the part of it thats sticks out of AMF blindspot at risk. Through in corperal undead for flavor and yeah...







I'm afraid it's you who is wrong here, Xykon can miss, and he has before. Creatures can dodge when being attacked. If I tell the DM "I'm aiming for the Dragon's tail as she moves through the air at a speed of 30 feet per second" there is no way the DM is giving you ordinary aiming odds. In addition, I doubt any DM is going to rule that just hitting the dragons tail and nothing else results in full damage. You say "that's real life, but not the game", but every DM is going to factor reality into what you've done. When you tell them "all my attacks are only aimed at the Dragon's tail", they're not giving you the win if you inflict 400 HP of damage on their tail, more likely the tail falls off.
NB- speaking of Rules, it says Dragons Favour Improved Initiative, so the Dragon likely does have a bonus on initiative, and going first.

No, creature in dnd can not dodge when being attacked. They either get hit if the attack gets over their AC, which fiqures in the chance they might dodge, or the attack misses. You keep bashing me for being wrong, but your getting the rules for -attacking and AC- wrong. Normally this would be fine, you don't play dnd, but don't be all smug about it when your the one making so many mistakes.

Aiming for a place such as a tail would add something in the area of 5 to the dragons AC. Movement, Rules as Written, does not effect AC. You wanted to talk about who would win under the rules. This means we have to use the rules.



The Dragon doesn't need dimensional anchor to win, but it's easy to imagine her getting it if she keeps being bothered by a pesky Lich.

Xykon doesn't need Hellball to win, but it's easy to imagine him getting it if he keeps being bothered by a pesky dragon. Or a wand or Disjuction. Or a wand of prismatic spray. Scroll of primstaic sphere to play the waiting game. Or the MITD and tell it she ate all the stew..ect ect




Finger of death maximised makes almost no difference to the spell. That's one. Two is that every time you use this, you have one less use of your 6-7 teleport spells. Three is that the range is the same as energy drain, which is terrible, and means Xykon will be grappled after he fires it. Four is that this spell has a pitiful chance of affecting a Dragon of this level, do you have any idea how high even an Ancient Black Dragon's Constitution and Fortitude Bonus are?!

yes, its save is 23. This means that it could fail its save on, oh, a 1. It was less of an actual way to win and more of a musing. I thought I was rather clear on that when I said the odds where low and then mentioned getting back on topic.






I did actually. Xykon will take weeks to reform. All the Dragon has to do during this time is leisurely go to the Oracle, find out where he needs to go to destroy Xykon's Phalactery, and then she does so.

Xykon takes 1d10 days to reform, actually. So he could be back up and running the day after. And the dragon would have to hit a fortress full of hobgoblins, tens of thousands of hobgoblins. The human mind isn't really equipped to deal with numbers in the tens of thousands. Also, when Redcloak noticed that Xykon was dead, they would be on full alert.

Also, the Oracle might very well not help the dragon againt Xykon. "dude's fircken scary." He might be respectful to her, but is he willing to risk his life?




a) giving Xykon powers we have no evidence he has... again, I can do this to make anyone ever beat anyone else.
b) Army of Hobgoblins who get to the Dragon how? Xykon can teleport 9 of them with him, or is the Dragon just flying at his army and letting them charge her as a group while she politely waits on the ground for them to swamp her?
c) So Xykon needs other people to help out, people who will have little chance of harming the Dragon, and who will probably be one shot by the Dragon.

Once again you ignore the fact that Xykon can two shot the dragon. He doesn't need the help, but he can get it. The point is even if the dragon gets lucky, it just means her problems get worse.




Once again I ask you to give me the play by play of how Xykon wins, long term or short term. I'll get you started:
Round 1
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif ???
:xykon: ???

Take as many rounds as you need to explain how Xykon wins, or as few.

I'm happy for you to throw about your own scenarios, but here's how your current ones seem to be going:
*The Dragon and Xykon start off separated by let's say 300 feet?*
Round 1
(Xykon wins initiative, even though Dragons favour an initiative boosting feat, and it seems wholly unlikely. Heck, the Dragon won initiative with V multiple times, but whatever)
:xykon: Casts Maximised Meteor Swarm at Dragon
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Casts AMF
Round 2
:xykon: Aims Meteor Swarm at Dragon's vulnerable bits
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Dragon has no vulnerable bits exposed, or just keeps the field in front of them, as she advances on Xykon, she is capable of bridging the entire gap in a single turn by hustling, grappling Xykon. Even if Xykon hits the Dragon's tail though, the Dragon's still fine (no DM is going to rule your spell aimed exclusively at her tail does damage to all of her, and a regular meteor swarm still doesn't kill the dragon even if you could hit her with it, even if Xykon hit her with 2 maximised meteor swarms it wouldn't be enough, assuming he hits with all the spheres on a moving target, and any part he hits has damage reduction!), and now the Dragon has Xykon helpless in an AMF.
Round 3
:xykon: Trapped, can't do anything
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/dragon.gif Begins crushing the life out of Xykon with 6 attacks per round
[continue round 3 until Xykon is dead]

Is that your plan? Or is your plan for the Dragon not to fit herself into her AMF at a range of 1400 feet, while Xykon shoots meteors? Why would the Dragon not just wait out the meteors while safe in the field, and advance on Xykon as he ran out, or just keeping the field in front of her? Why is the Dragon a moron?

Interestingly, against a Red Dragon with the same abilities Xykon is even more boned, since the Red Dragon will laugh off the fire damage... but I thought no Dragon of said level could ever defeat an Epic Sorcerer?

Once again, I shall give it to you. Bets on how it will be ignored or handwaved?

As a note before we get started. As I thought, but didn't look up until now, there are no "blank level spell slots" after 9th. Its just epic spell slots. This means that Xykon can either cast at least 3 epic spells a day, or use metamagic to improve him non-epic spells past 9th level 3 times a day, or a combination thereof.

1st possible outcome
Xykon has Hellball (or other epic evocation) Xykon wins

2nd possible outcome
Xykon does not have Hellball, but goes first. Maxmized Meteor Swarm.
Dragon: AMF, moves to base to base.
Xykon: moves out of AMF, greater teleport. Makes the draogn either chase him and line up the second Mamized Meteor Swarm, or the dragon leaves and both now have time to prepare. The one with the money of a nation, the higher class levels for crafting, who doesn't have to sleep, and who only needs to plan to overcome one thing (AMF) comes out ahead in this case.

Xykon can not just step back and blast again with the second Maxmized meteor swarm in this case, however. Using metamagic is a full round action for a sorceror.

3rd possible outcome.

As second, but while playing whack-a-mole Xykon needs to line up two shots, because the dragon went first.


4th and 5th possible outcome.
Xykon or the dragon ambushes with all things in their favor. In this case, the ambusher is the most likely to win. Dragon still needs to track down Redcloak and get past his defenses and army in 1d10 days. My money would still be on xykon in the long run. Biggest advantage a lich gets, that long run.

Kish
2011-09-05, 10:32 AM
As a note before we get started. As I thought, but didn't look up until now, there are no "blank level spell slots" after 9th. Its just epic spell slots.
That's actually incorrect. The feat Improved Spell Capacity gives you one extra spell slot of a level higher than your highest spell slot when you take it. So if a level 21 sorcerer takes it once, s/he gets a level 10 spell slot (plus, now that tenth level is available, any bonus spells his/her Charisma would grant, if his/her Charisma is 30 or above); a second time, s/he gets a level 11 spell slot (plus bonus spells for Charisma of 32 or above), and so on. Epic spells are completely separate from level-numbered spells.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-09-05, 10:50 AM
That's actually incorrect. The feat Improved Spell Capacity gives you one extra spell slot of a level higher than your highest spell slot when you take it. So if a level 21 sorcerer takes it once, s/he gets a level 10 spell slot (plus, now that tenth level is available, any bonus spells his/her Charisma would grant, if his/her Charisma is 30 or above); a second time, s/he gets a level 11 spell slot (plus bonus spells for Charisma of 32 or above), and so on. Epic spells are completely separate from level-numbered spells.

Ah, got the complex epic level rules mixed up. Well, thats about two mistakes then

Well, as long as I have you here, can you back me up on sorceror's being able to use their spell slots to cast lower level spells?

137ben
2011-09-05, 11:04 AM
Ah, got the complex epic level rules mixed up. Well, thats about two mistakes then

Well, as long as I have you here, can you back me up on sorceror's being able to use their spell slots to cast lower level spells?

Yes, sorcerers can use lower level spells in high level spell "slots". Doubt me saying this matters, since certain people on this thread assume that experience playing DND equates to being wrong about everything (BTW, magus admitted that he never played dnd...)

AgentofOdd
2011-09-05, 11:14 AM
For those who may be curious, the relevant rule can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm).
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Kish
2011-09-05, 11:16 AM
Ah, got the complex epic level rules mixed up. Well, thats about two mistakes then

Well, as long as I have you here, can you back me up on sorceror's being able to use their spell slots to cast lower level spells?
Yes. Effectively, a "ninth-level" spell slot is more precisely an "up-to-ninth-level" spell slot, and so on all the way down to "up-to-first-level" spell slots.

FujinAkari
2011-09-05, 11:26 AM
{{scrubbed}}

VanBuren
2011-09-05, 12:41 PM
The SRD is pretty clear that, yes, Sorcerers can do that.

Unfortunately, Magus' working knowledge of D&D is so poor that unless he can pull a direct quote out of the SRD supporting his rules interpretation, then it is probably invalid.

That may seem unfair, but this is the guy who thinks spells centered on you can be moved around at will, that AMF blocks scry, that prismantic sphere blocks teleport, that something can still fly while paralyzed, and that dodging and AC are unrelated.

His posts are interesting to read, he just has an unfortunate habit of insisting on a exceedingly precise following of the rules, and then keeps forgetting about all the rules which don't help his case :P

And then not-so-subtly insulting anyone who disagrees.

The Giant
2011-09-05, 01:03 PM
Off-topic and hostile.

Thread locked; infractions may follow.