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Adamantrue
2011-09-06, 05:56 PM
Actually...a Feat & and addendum. First, the addendum:

Diehard
Special: When dealing with nonlethal damage, you become staggered if your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit point total by less than 10. You become unconscious if your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit point total by 10 or more.
The staggered condition is superseded by the disabled condition if your hit point total is already below 0.

And the Feat:

Tenacious [General]
While others may fall, you endure.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +9, Con 15, Endurance
Benefit: You gain Fast Healing 1. This stacks with any Fast Healing you already possess or later gain.
Whenever you take hit point damage, you may convert 1 point of that damage into nonlethal damage. If a single source has multiple damage types (such as a flaming longsword+1), you may convert 1 hit point for each type.
Special: A fighter may select Tenacious as one of his bonus feats.

I'm really hesitant to brew a Feat that allows Fast Healing, thinking it could easily be so valuable that its one of those "why wouldn't you take it" types.

Mind you, I know Combat Vigor or Persistent Spell are already options, but both require investments that aren't always attractive.

So, with the general premise presented above in mind, what would need to be tweaked.

Pyromancer999
2011-09-06, 06:29 PM
I believe WoTC already made a feat like the one you are trying to make. It had either a Con requisite of 23, I believe.

jiriku
2011-09-06, 07:23 PM
I dunno. By level 9, I probably already have 60+ hit points if I'm a martial character. Spending two feats just to convert 1 hp per strike into nonlethal isn't worth it to me at that point. It's significantly worse than DR 1/-. I'm not sure this feat would carry its weight even if it was gained at bab +4.

It might be better if it was 1 hp per die of damage. That provides some inherent scaling of the effect vs. more dangerous foes.

Yitzi
2011-09-07, 08:27 AM
The problem with any fast healing ability (even FH 1) is that it allows you to recover hit points between combats without any use of party resources. Which is ok for higher-power games, but not for the lower-power games.

Adamantrue
2011-09-07, 07:02 PM
So, I got one person saying its underpowered...and another saying its too potent?

That's a bit of a mixed message. I'm...not sure where to go from here.

Glimbur
2011-09-07, 07:17 PM
An ability slightly better than DR 1/- and a wand of lesser vigor is not worth a feat. It's especially not worth a mid-level feat and requiring Endurance as a pre-requisite.

A more interesting feat would be one that lets you heal by your level, or your BAB + (your Con mod)* X, where X is probably 2-5, as a swift action every round. Swift actions should be valuable things, and everyone should be able to use them. This feat is kind of strong by itself, but if martial and skill types get more swift action choices then the opportunity cost increases too.

jiriku
2011-09-07, 07:58 PM
Oh, so it's fast healing AND pseudo-DR? Well, that's better. Still... Glimbur's right. Not worth a 9th level feat and a throwaway prerequisite.

If you removed the prerequisite, or replaced it with Improved Toughness, and knocked the base attack requirement down to +3... hmmm, that would be decent. Not lighting the world on fire, but decent.

blackmage
2011-09-07, 10:54 PM
Something I made a little bit ago that's in the same ballpark is this feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187348). It's pool of temporary hit points that are refreshed each round, so that its sort of like DR but not really. May be a good way for a non-caster to extend their longevity.

Ashtagon
2011-09-08, 12:34 AM
"Always-on" fast healing will rapidly break any game that plays on the idea of man vs. nature, or man vs. death-by-a-thousand-cuts.

I'd consider a feat that allows fast healing during limited "adrenalin rush" or "barbarian rage" periods. But always-on is too weak to be useful during combat, and too strong to be balanced outside of it.

jiriku
2011-09-08, 01:20 AM
"Always-on" fast healing will rapidly break any game that plays on the idea of man vs. nature.

This is true, but it's also true that create water (ECL1), endure elements (ECL1), and a DC 15 Survival check (ECL1) will break a man-vs.-nature game, to say nothing of create food and water (ECL 5) or teleport (ECL9). Such games don't really challenge the capabilities of any but the most low-level and unoptimized parties.

Ashtagon
2011-09-08, 01:58 AM
This is true, but it's also true that create water (ECL1), endure elements (ECL1), and a DC 15 Survival check (ECL1) will break a man-vs.-nature game, to say nothing of create food and water (ECL 5) or teleport (ECL9). Such games don't really challenge the capabilities of any but the most low-level and unoptimized parties.

Not to the same extent. Casting those spells will still consume resources. An always-on feat won't.

Now otoh, having the effects of those spells always-on without having to spend the spell each morning would be a valid counterpoint.

Plus, there are ways a GM can take those spells away from the party. Not so much in the case of a feat.

Adamantrue
2011-09-08, 06:56 AM
Not to the same extent. Casting those spells will still consume resources. An always-on feat won't. Curious...casting a spell is "consume a resource", but spending a Feat isn't?

But that's just inviting an argument on semantics.

(As a side note...Fast Healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing) won't help against thirst or starvation, so you could still have some Man VS Nature struggles, to some degree.)

Getting back to your actual point:
But always-on is too weak to be useful during combat, and too strong to be balanced outside of it. I agree that it isn't particularly strong in-combat, but I didn't want to drastically change a character's survivability with this Feat. I'm thinking that perhaps something more significant may be required, though.
A more interesting feat would be one that lets you heal by your level, or your BAB + (your Con mod)* X, where X is probably 2-5, as a swift action every round. Swift actions should be valuable things, and everyone should be able to use them. This feat is kind of strong by itself, but if martial and skill types get more swift action choices then the opportunity cost increases too. Now that's an interesting approach. Swift actions are valuable things, but the options for more mundane characters to use them are very limited.

On a somewhat related note:
Something I made a little bit ago that's in the same ballpark is this feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187348). It's pool of temporary hit points that are refreshed each round, so that its sort of like DR but not really. May be a good way for a non-caster to extend their longevity.
I'd consider a feat that allows fast healing during limited "adrenalin rush" or "barbarian rage" periods. But always-on is too weak to be useful during combat, and too strong to be balanced outside of it. This just gave me a neat idea. Some tangentially related (not directly important) reference material in the Spoiler. Expert Maneuvers [General]
Proper defensive postures can lure opponents into more vulnerable positions.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +8, Combat Expertise, Expert Strike, Improved Feint, Improved Trip.
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise, you may apply a bonus to Bluff checks when performing a feint, Sense Motive checks to oppose a feint, and Strength checks when performing or resisting a trip attack, equal to the bonus you gain to AC.
Special: A fighter may select Expert Maneuvers as one of his bonus feats.

Expert Strike [General]
Honing your skill has improved your offense as well as your defense.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, Dexterity 13, Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When using a light melee weapon, or one with which Weapon Finesse would apply, you gain a bonus to damage equal to the bonus to AC you gain from the Combat Expertise feat.
Special: A fighter may select Expert Strike as one of his bonus feats. Combat Dynamo [General]
The thrill of combat, tempered by skill, fuels your actions.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +5, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully deal damage to an opponent while using Combat Expertise, you gain temporary hit points equal to the bonus you gain to AC. Cumulative hits add to your temporary hit point total, up to but not exceeding your normal (uninjured) maximum.
Temporary hit points gained in this way last for a number of minutes equal to 3+ your Intelligence Modifier.
Special: A fighter may select Combat Dynamo as one of his bonus feats.

This would be a completely different approach, unrelated to the first (which I have to think on some more). But I think they both kinda require the same kind of feedback.

And a better name, for this new one.

jiriku
2011-09-08, 10:16 AM
I'd go with a flat five minutes. 3 + Int is an unnecessary calculation - there aren't enough instances where the difference will produce an interesting result to justify having to keep track of a variable duration.

Possible Names:
Intricate Defense
Tread on the Blade
Combat Momentum
Combat Rhythm

Power-wise, it's decent. I like that, since it's tied to both base attack and number of attacks, the feat grows with you (to a limited degree) as you level.

However, with the ever-present caster/noncaster conflict in mind, I'll point out that this feat is much more valuable to gish combatants, who can often make all their melee attacks as touch attacks (and thus afford larger Combat Expertise penalties), than to straight martial combatants, who usually can't do so.

Yitzi
2011-09-08, 02:46 PM
So, I got one person saying its underpowered...and another saying its too potent?

That's a bit of a mixed message. I'm...not sure where to go from here.

It really comes down to a question of how much free healing between fights is worth.


An ability slightly better than DR 1/- and a wand of lesser vigor is not worth a feat.

It's quite more than a wand of lesser vigor; it's more like a wand of lesser vigor that regains all its charges every 50 minutes.

The point here isn't so much that it lets you heal as that it lets you heal at no cost.

Glimbur
2011-09-08, 05:56 PM
It's quite more than a wand of lesser vigor; it's more like a wand of lesser vigor that regains all its charges every 50 minutes.

The point here isn't so much that it lets you heal as that it lets you heal at no cost.

A wand of lesser vigor heals 550 hp for 750 gp. A third level barbarian has (12+13+3*6) = 43 hp while raging, more or less. We can completely heal this third level barbarian about 17 times on one wand. Average treasure value for an encounter level 3 fight is 900 gp. There are four people in a party, and let's assume the worst case and that they all need full healing after every fight with an encounter with EL = APL. A wand lasts for four fights, so we spend 750 gp every time we get 900*4, or 3600 gp. This is kind of expensive, but as levels raise income increases faster than gp loss. For example, a CR 5 encounter gives 1600 gp on average while the barbarian has 12+26+5*6 hp, or 68 hp. That's about half again as much hp and almost twice as much gold. CR 8 is 3400 gp and 12+7*6.5+8*7 hp, or 113 hp. That's 1/5 a wand each full heal, but each fight makes enough for four wands. Net wand profit at level 3 is a bit more than .9411 wands/fight assuming healing only the barb, at level 8 net wand profit is a bit more than 3.8 wands/fight.

What's the point? Out of combat healing is cheap unless you need continual amounts of small healing, for example from environmental effects which do 1d6 damage per minute or whatever. Healing also gets cheaper as one levels.

Adamantrue
2011-09-08, 09:59 PM
It's quite more than a wand of lesser vigor; it's more like a wand of lesser vigor that regains all its charges every 50 minutes. I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, unless you are in a situation where you take 1 point of damage every round for the entire day (which would be a particularly rough day to be an adventurer).

It also doesn't do a whole lot to increase survivability in any single encounter (going back to how minimal the effect is), so much as ensuring that you usually start each encounter at full health. Which is where the real issue comes in.
It really comes down to a question of how much free healing between fights is worth.

[snip]

The point here isn't so much that it lets you heal as that it lets you heal at no cost. How much is a Feat worth, in Gold Pieces? Like if I were to buy an item that grants a Feat, how much would I pay? From there, one could conceivably figure out how much a healing item that has daily uses would compare, and tweak the concept to match that power level better.

jiriku
2011-09-08, 11:33 PM
Generally speaking, 3,000 - 10,000 gp for feats with no prerequisites. Feats with prerequisites usually aren't available in items, so hard to say there. More, obviously.

Ashtagon
2011-09-09, 12:25 AM
I don't normally value abilities in terms of their rated gp value. WBL is a rather suspect mechanism for balance anyway I think. Instead, I consider whether or not the item would allow for interesting adventures to continue.

In the case of any feature that essentially says "you heal to full health between combats", the answer is plainly that it does not allow for a huge numvber of adventure concepts to take place.

Adamantrue
2011-09-09, 07:00 AM
I don't normally value abilities in terms of their rated gp value. WBL is a rather suspect mechanism for balance anyway I think. Instead, I consider whether or not the item would allow for interesting adventures to continue.

In the case of any feature that essentially says "you heal to full health between combats", the answer is plainly that it does not allow for a huge numvber of adventure concepts to take place. I don't think that's a fair statement to make. Healing is often assumed to happen, or even taken for granted. In addition, I'm sure that it opens the doors to different kinds of adventures as well, some of which could be very interesting.

The more fair statement to make would be that it changes a fair portion of adventure concepts. Which I would admit may be a bit much.
Generally speaking, 3,000 - 10,000 gp for feats with no prerequisites. Feats with prerequisites usually aren't available in items, so hard to say there. More, obviously. So, on the low end, it could be 4 Healing Belts (about 24d8, 108 hp), and on the high end, 13 belts (about 78d8, 351 hp) over the course of a day.

Reframing it in terms of Eternal Wands of Lesser Vigor (I know its supposed to be arcane only, but this is just for the math), it ranges from 4 wands (96 rounds/hp) to 12 wands (288 rounds/hp). Same general ballpark (but boy, are those Healing Belts good).

So...what if we set it up so that it would provide a more significant Fast Healing (to meet jiriku's criteria of being more useful in-combat), but had a hard limit of amount of rounds it can be used per day (to satisfy everyone else concerning the game out-of-combat)? Say, somewhere between Fast Healing 10 for 10 rds/day, and Fast Healing 15 for 20 rds/day, and they can break these up as desired.

That's one option. I'm considering others, but I thought I'd get feedback on this direction first.

Ashtagon
2011-09-09, 08:17 AM
I don't think that's a fair statement to make. Healing is often assumed to happen, or even taken for granted. In addition, I'm sure that it opens the doors to different kinds of adventures as well, some of which could be very interesting.

The more fair statement to make would be that it changes a fair portion of adventure concepts. Which I would admit may be a bit much. So, on the low end, it could be 4 Healing Belts (about 24d8, 108 hp), and on the high end, 13 belts (about 78d8, 351 hp) over the course of a day.


Fully healing between encounters changes a series of mook opponents from a level-relevant challenge (when taken as a whole) to a total irrelevancy. The only encounters that pose any challenge would become the ones against bosses.

It's not just a question of money spent surviving. A deeper question is whether there is any meaningful danger. If you have full healing always available, there simply isn't any danger.

Of course, I play in worlds without magic marts. ymmv.

jiriku
2011-09-09, 10:54 AM
A lot of the full-heal question is a matter of campaign power level and class choice. For example, if you play with a high-op group and the party is a warlock, a swordsage, a DMM-cleric, and warblade, the idea that parties finish an encounter with fewer resources than they started is kind of foreign to them. A group like that can handle an arbitratily large number of encounters if hp damage is all they have to be concerned about.

OTOH, if you ban ToB and DMM and the party uses spells to heal instead of charged items , or if your party is low-op, or if your group is running fighter, rogue, healer (again w/o a CLW wand), and generalist wizard, the party probably has to limit its resource expenditure pretty tightly, and can't handle many encounters without resting.

For my group, that particular horse left the barn and has never come back since the day I showed them A Player's Guide to Healing (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29). Other groups may have a different style and play level.

Yitzi
2011-09-09, 12:27 PM
A wand of lesser vigor heals 550 hp for 750 gp. A third level barbarian has (12+13+3*6) = 43 hp while raging, more or less. We can completely heal this third level barbarian about 17 times on one wand. Average treasure value for an encounter level 3 fight is 900 gp. There are four people in a party, and let's assume the worst case and that they all need full healing after every fight with an encounter with EL = APL. A wand lasts for four fights, so we spend 750 gp every time we get 900*4, or 3600 gp. This is kind of expensive, but as levels raise income increases faster than gp loss. For example, a CR 5 encounter gives 1600 gp on average while the barbarian has 12+26+5*6 hp, or 68 hp. That's about half again as much hp and almost twice as much gold. CR 8 is 3400 gp and 12+7*6.5+8*7 hp, or 113 hp. That's 1/5 a wand each full heal, but each fight makes enough for four wands. Net wand profit at level 3 is a bit more than .9411 wands/fight assuming healing only the barb, at level 8 net wand profit is a bit more than 3.8 wands/fight.

So by level 8, the wand for the full heal (for one character) costs roughly 5% of the income. +5% to net income is a pretty decent effect.

But of course that's based on the assumption that all encounters will be level-appropriate. Where this feat really shines is (as Ashtagon said) with the minor mook fights, where it can turn things from a minor but noticeable matter to nothing at all.

The other thing that it's totally overpowered for is hit-and-run fights; of course, such things really require everybody involved in the fight to be a sneak class (or have invisibility at will), so unless the whole party is optimized for such it's not such an issue. (It does, however, give you the means to turn that properly played ranger boss from a huge threat to a nearly insurmountable one. :smallbiggrin:)


I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, unless you are in a situation where you take 1 point of damage every round for the entire day (which would be a particularly rough day to be an adventurer).

No, except in such a situation "wand of lesser vigor every 5 minutes" would be an exaggeration. "Wand of lesser vigor that regenerates every 5 minutes" would be more like what this is: If you have no use for it, you can't save it up for later.


Which is where the real issue comes in. How much is a Feat worth, in Gold Pieces? Like if I were to buy an item that grants a Feat, how much would I pay?

That sounds like a reasonable way to figure things out.


I don't normally value abilities in terms of their rated gp value. WBL is a rather suspect mechanism for balance anyway I think.

If so, then D&D is irredeemably broken and there's no point even considering these matters, as equipment is a major part of any character's significance.


In the case of any feature that essentially says "you heal to full health between combats", the answer is plainly that it does not allow for a huge numvber of adventure concepts to take place.

Question then is whether wands of CLW cause the same issues.

Ashtagon
2011-09-09, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
I don't normally value abilities in terms of their rated gp value. WBL is a rather suspect mechanism for balance anyway I think.

If so, then D&D is irredeemably broken and there's no point even considering these matters, as equipment is a major part of any character's significance.



Well, since you linked to this thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29), let's grab the first example that comes to mind.


Cure Serious Wounds potion will heal, on average, 18.5 hp, and it will cost you 750gp, and it will take either a standard or a full round action to use, and it will provoke AoOs unless you did some further investment to prevent that, and on top of that it probably smells bad and tastes bitter. Yuck. For the same price, you could have gotten a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (275hp total instead of 18.5hp), a Wand of Lesser Vigor (550hp total instead of 18.5gp), or a Healing Belt (Either 6d8 hp (average 27 hp) a day, or 18 hp (same as the potion!) per day if you burst heal, usable as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)) Would you rather get 18 hp, or 18 hp per day?

The fact that the same 750 gp can buy you 18 hp worth of healing or 275 hp, or even 550 hp --- that alone should tell you that the item prices are seriously broken. Certainly, characters should gain more wealth as they level up. By the item prices, and the corresponding WBL accountancy arguments they generate, are irrelevant, once you realise that item prices are inherently broken.

Yitzi
2011-09-09, 03:23 PM
The fact that the same 750 gp can buy you 18 hp worth of healing or 275 hp, or even 550 hp --- that alone should tell you that the item prices are seriously broken.

No, it tells you that the ability to heal important wounds quickly is worth a lot. After all, 550 hp of healing won't save your life in the middle of a battle if they take nearly an hour to take effect. 18 hit points in a single standard action very well might.

Ashtagon
2011-09-09, 03:59 PM
No, it tells you that the ability to heal important wounds quickly is worth a lot. After all, 550 hp of healing won't save your life in the middle of a battle if they take nearly an hour to take effect. 18 hit points in a single standard action very well might.

I think you misunderstand the power of those items.

Sure, potions of csw can heal more in a single standard action. But many many statistical analyses have been drawn up that basically say that healing during combat is a waste of time, and that the action will almost always be more efficiently spent by attacking an enemy than by healing a friend.

Yitzi
2011-09-09, 05:17 PM
I think you misunderstand the power of those items.

Sure, potions of csw can heal more in a single standard action. But many many statistical analyses have been drawn up that basically say that healing during combat is a waste of time, and that the action will almost always be more efficiently spent by attacking an enemy than by healing a friend.

Almost always. Which is why a potion of CSW is a contingency item only (which is just what you'd expect.)

If anything, you're proving that the higher-level healing spells are underpowered and over"priced", not that the item costs are off.

Ashtagon
2011-09-09, 05:57 PM
No, my point becomes even more extreme when you consider the wands of CSW. The problem is that potions are overpriced compared to wands, not that high level healing is mis-priced.

Adamantrue
2011-09-09, 06:21 PM
Potions are pricier because anyone can use them, regardless of whether you can cast spells or its on your class list.

Fairly...OK, there may be a debate in that.

jiriku
2011-09-09, 10:47 PM
Prices are wonky. No argument there. Still, I feel that a discerning, experienced eye can judge the difference between a well-priced item and one priced poorly. If both players and DMs react warmly to an item (ex. ring of protection, magic armor enhancement bonus), its price is a good guideline. If players rarely or never buy an item, it is probably too expensive for the value it offers. If players eagerly seek an item but experienced DMs ban it or increase its cost, it is priced too cheaply for its value.

Try this: take your feat, put it in a ring, and set it alongside various other rings of different prices from 2,000 gp to 12,000 gp and ask yourself which item you'd rather have. That should help you estimate the gp value.

Hanuman
2011-09-10, 06:19 AM
Dukar hand coral, built-in fast heal and bodily restoration.

I think that fast healing feat is in a dragon book like draconomicon.

jiriku
2011-09-10, 08:46 AM
Yeah, the Fast Healing feat is epic though, and like most epic feats for martial characters, it's utterly worthless for the level at which it's available.

Adamantrue
2011-09-10, 09:50 AM
Oooh...I got it!
Fanning the Flame [General]
The thrill of combat, tempered by skill, fuels your actions.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +5, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully deal damage to an opponent while using Combat Expertise, you gain temporary hit points equal to the bonus you gain to AC. Cumulative hits add to your temporary hit point total, up to but not exceeding your normal (uninjured) maximum.
Temporary hit points gained in this way last for 3 minutes.
Special: A fighter may select Fanning the Flame as one of his bonus feats. So, any problems with this Feat?

*

Back to the initial idea (I still like the name Tenacious), a scaling version of what I'm looking for could be based on BAB x 15. So, meeting the +9 prerequisite would net you a total of 135 hp, and at +20 it would be worth 300 hp. These would fall within the ranges of the Healing Belts/Eternal Wands of Lesser Vigor.

Perhaps, if you are below 1/2 Hit Points, you could activate this Feat as a Swift Action to heal 15 hp, and you can only use it a number of times per day equal to your BAB? The Feat would never fully heal you up, but it could keep you alive for a good while.

I dunno...I'm liking the idea, but thinking maybe 10 hp per use may be better (ranging from 90 hp to 200 hp). We are talking about Swift Actions.

Yitzi
2011-09-10, 07:54 PM
Potions are pricier because anyone can use them, regardless of whether you can cast spells or its on your class list.

Partially because of that (that's why they're twice the price of scrolls), and partially because even though they cost more per charge, they're a lot cheaper in initial outlay. (So wands are for spells you cast often, potions and scrolls for more contingency situations.)

jiriku
2011-09-10, 11:09 PM
Oooh...I got it! So, any problems with this Feat?

That looks good, solid for the level.




Back to the initial idea (I still like the name Tenacious), a scaling version of what I'm looking for could be based on BAB x 15.

I dunno...I'm liking the idea, but thinking maybe 10 hp per use may be better (ranging from 90 hp to 200 hp). We are talking about Swift Actions.

This is getting better, Tenacious version A and B needed some work, and Tenacious C is almost there. With a little more work, I think Tenacious D will rock out.

A challenge you face is that you're attempting a linear scaling factor, while hit points scale non-linearly. This means that you'll always be either overpowered for low levels or underpowered for high levels. So maybe instead of BAB x 10, you want to try (BAB + Con mod) x 8 or something similar, since Con tends to increase slightly as level goes up, thus causing the value to increase faster at higher levels (assuming a full base attack all the way through a level progression).

Ashtagon
2011-09-11, 01:09 AM
Partially because of that (that's why they're twice the price of scrolls), and partially because even though they cost more per charge, they're a lot cheaper in initial outlay. (So wands are for spells you cast often, potions and scrolls for more contingency situations.)

Except that even in that regard, not all wands are the same. A wand of magic missiles is less useful than a wand of sleep for level-appropriate encounters, but they are the same price. You can make a wand of identify for the same price as either of the two above, and it'll last you a lot longer because it won't get used so often.

The sooner people realise that the formulae in the srd and dmg are not the be-all and end-all of item pricing, the sooner the game will improve.

Owrtho
2011-09-11, 01:14 AM
In the case of any feature that essentially says "you heal to full health between combats", the answer is plainly that it does not allow for a huge numvber of adventure concepts to take place.

The problem with this statement and all the other variations stated thus far though, is that they assume that all the party has the ability to heal automatically. Odds are most characters will have more important things to spend their feats on. If only one character has the feat, then this is not the case, as while they may start every fight at full health, the rest of the party will be gradually worn down, and as a result be more at risk of unconsciousness and/or death, making things harder for the person at full health. Sure he may be full, but if half the party can't fight any more, and the rest outside him is on their last leg, a normally minor fight could be noticeably more dangerous.

Owrtho

Adamantrue
2011-09-11, 05:45 AM
This is getting better, Tenacious version A and B needed some work, and Tenacious C is almost there. With a little more work, I think Tenacious D will rock out.

A challenge you face is that you're attempting a linear scaling factor, while hit points scale non-linearly. This means that you'll always be either overpowered for low levels or underpowered for high levels. So maybe instead of BAB x 10, you want to try (BAB + Con mod) x 8 or something similar, since Con tends to increase slightly as level goes up, thus causing the value to increase faster at higher levels (assuming a full base attack all the way through a level progression). I don't necessarily agree with a non-linear progression. If you start with a Con 14, pump it to 16 through leveling, and get a Amulet for +6, you fall short of doubling the Hit Points you would have had (except maybe in the case of d4 HD Classes, and even then its close). Depending on the rolls/Point Buy, even less so.

You'd also have to start worrying about Alternate Forms with higher Constitutions, Raging Barbarians (do they use their normal Score, or their Raging Score?), Monsters that take the Feat, etc...

It also sets it up to grant enough Hit Points to be waay outside the ranges I listed for the Healing Belt/Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor. I'm already debating my comfort level granting 15 [4d6] worth of Healing with Swift Actions (10 [3d6] worth just feels better).

With that said...I've already begun considering a second Feat (call it Improved Tenacity, for the sake of this thought) that would let you substitute healing a condition (much like the Heal spell) instead of hit points. I could see such a Feat also allowing the amount of Hit Points gained to increase, maybe even to 20.

Is this unreasonable?

Yitzi
2011-09-11, 07:13 AM
Except that even in that regard, not all wands are the same. A wand of magic missiles is less useful than a wand of sleep for level-appropriate encounters, but they are the same price.

That's because Sleep is overpowered; it has nothing to do with pricing problems.

Also, your claim is not true; a wand of MM is far more useful than a wand of Sleep, because the wand of MM doesn't suffer from having a DC of only 11, while a wand of Sleep definitely does.


You can make a wand of identify for the same price as either of the two above, and it'll last you a lot longer because it won't get used so often.

Firstly, it's not the same price (since you have to pay for the material component), and secondly it might last longer, but still replaces the same 50 spell slots.


The sooner people realise that the formulae in the srd and dmg are not the be-all and end-all of item pricing, the sooner the game will improve.

Clearly they do need adjusting for a few custom items, but you grossly overstate the issue (by including any imbalance that shows an effect in item pricing, even if the imbalance actually lies in a different area.)

jiriku
2011-09-11, 12:13 PM
With that said...I've already begun considering a second Feat (call it Improved Tenacity, for the sake of this thought) that would let you substitute healing a condition (much like the Heal spell) instead of hit points. I could see such a Feat also allowing the amount of Hit Points gained to increase, maybe even to 20.

Is this unreasonable?

How often would this be usable? Requiring a three-feat chain in order to heal a modest amount or a condition that doesn't prevent you from taking actions doesn't strike me as a particularly good deal on the surface of it.

Adamantrue
2011-09-11, 12:24 PM
Well, Tenacious is usable BAB times per day, so on the higher end it could be used 20 times per day.

So, what is being proposed:

Tenacious: BAB +9, Con 15, Endurance
When below 1/2 hit point total, heal 10 hp as swift action. Usable BAB times/day.

Improved Tenacity: BAB +15(?), Con 17, Endurance, Tenacious
As Tenacious, but 20 hp. No longer need to be below 1/2 hit point total.
Instead of healing hit points, may instead spend a daily use to remove 1 of the following conditions: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, or poisoned.

jiriku
2011-09-11, 12:46 PM
How would you spend the swift action to use tenacity to heal the confused insane, nauseated, or stunned conditions? I thought you didn't have swift actions available to you (or didn't have the ability to choose your own actions) when under those conditions.

I'd recommend fewer overall uses but more healing per activation. At 15th - 20th level, it's not unusual for powerful monsters or NPC opponents to deal 50 - 150 damage per full attack per monster. Optimized opponents could deal double those figures. Healing 20 points once per round is better than doing nothing with your swift action, but it's not going to make much of a dent in the damage you're taking. And I'm still not sure it's worth a 3-feat chain. That's six levels worth of class features for a fighter.

Adamantrue
2011-09-11, 01:23 PM
Confused & Insanity, you have a 10% chance of being able to use it. Nauseated, I'd have to word it so that you can use your Move action in those circumstances. The blanket paste from Heal didn't have me pay attention to everything there, so Stunned would prevent you from doing it (as well as Dazed).
I'd recommend fewer overall uses but more healing per activation. At 15th - 20th level, it's not unusual for powerful monsters or NPC opponents to deal 50 - 150 damage per full attack per monster. Optimized opponents could deal double those figures. Healing 20 points once per round is better than doing nothing with your swift action, but it's not going to make much of a dent in the damage you're taking. And I'm still not sure it's worth a 3-feat chain. That's six levels worth of class features for a fighter. I dunno, though. Significantly more than 20, and you start to run into an issue where your opponent might not really be making any headway. I don't want to make any character basically invulnerable with these Feat alone.

It also doesn't prevent other methods of in-combat Healing (the few there are). Say, a Knight under the effect of greater vigor with a friend shield ring, some source of DR, and a vampyric weapon along with these Feats would be better suited to the opponents you describe, and would be within my comfort zone much more than having the Feats do the job by themselves.

Adamantrue
2011-09-12, 04:15 PM
I've been looking through the Devoted Spirit Maneuvers, trying to gauge how I want to balance this. For example, Strike of Righteous Vitality allows a Heal spell about every 6 rounds (assuming an intended 50/50 chance of hitting the target and recharging maneuvers, though I know it doesn't exactly work that way) for 150 hp. The next best healing available would be Rallying Strike for maybe 25 hp (again, every 6 rounds). Between those two, we're talking an average of about 33 hp per round.

On the flip side, the proposed Improved Tenacity doesn't require melee range, can heal status effects every round (admittedly 1 at a time, but I don't remember having multiple ones too often), and honestly...appeals more to my preferred Tier 4-Tier 5 level of play.

However...with the number of Feats invested, maybe I can bridge that gap a little more. 25 hp is a nice round number.

So, this is what I'm thinking...

Tenacity: BAB +9, Con 15, Endurance
When below 1/2 hit point total, heal 10 hp as swift action. Usable BAB times/day.

Improved Tenacity: BAB +15(?), Con 17, Endurance, Tenacity
When using Tenacity, instead heal 25 hp. No longer need to be below 1/2 hit point total to activate.
Instead of healing hit points, may instead spend a daily use to remove 1 of the following conditions: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated (with a move action), sickened, or poisoned.

Adamantrue
2011-09-13, 01:42 PM
I did some fiddlin' around with this...
Tenacity [General]
While others may fall, you endure.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +8, Constitution 15, Improved Toughness.
Benefit: If your total hit points are reduced to one-half or lower, you may use a swift action to heal yourself up to 10 hit points.
You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your base attack bonus. For example, a 15th level rogue could use this ability 11 times each day.
Special: A fighter may select Tenacity as one of his bonus feats.

Greater Tenacity [General]
Your withstand inhuman levels of punishment without falling.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +15, Constitution 17, Improved Toughness, Tenacity.
Benefit: When using the Tenacity feat, you instead heal yourself up to 25 hit points with each use.
At the beginning of your turn, you may spend two daily uses of the Tenacity feat to remove one of the following conditions: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, or poisoned.
You can only remove one condition each round. No action is required to use this ability, and you may use this ability even if you cannot act normally during your turn.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Tenacity as one of his bonus feats. I actually like the way this works right now, with the ability to remove a condition not requiring an action at all, but costing you about 50 hp worth of future Healing.

It also introduces another pool of points that can be spent in other ways (much like the Stunning Fist Feats). Perhaps a series of different Feats could allow you to spend one or more points to perform some other kind of action, such as buffing your Fort or Will saves, or healing an amount greater than normal, or maybe not having to wait until you are at 1/2 Hit Points.

How does this look, next to other level-appropriate Feats?

jiriku
2011-09-13, 07:21 PM
Me, I'd replace Endurance with Improved Toughness, so you're getting some use out of all the feats in the chain. I think Tenacity wants a slightly low base attack requirement. +7 or +8, perhaps (there's little difference between the two, since only multi-class characters can get a feat at 7th level).

Adamantrue
2011-09-14, 06:01 AM
Well...

I can do Improved Toughness. I usually prefer to have Prerequisites come from Core (so no one has trouble finding them) unless it directly relates to the new work, but in this case, since Improved Toughness has been published so many places & everyone has such a horrible association with Endurance, I think I can let it slide.

The BAB...I can do +8, but I'm not quite sure what the rationale is. Can you explain why a level (or two...or few in the case of 3/4 or 1/2 progression classes) makes that much of a difference?

jiriku
2011-09-14, 01:33 PM
At BAB+8, a fighter can select it with his 8th level bonus feat. At BAB+9, he must either use the feat granted by his character level or wait until 10th level for another bonus feat. IME, fighters have a LOT of really nice feats they want to snag that are not fighter bonus feats, so if they can possibly get a feat in a bonus slot, that's desirable.

Also, because the feat doesn't scale, it grows stale quickly, so if they can possibly avoid waiting for it, that's desirable too. The value of a 10 hp heal is decreasing rapidly at those levels as hp totals and average damage per round goes up, and getting the feat a level or two earlier significantly enhances the size of the "sweet spot" in which using it is an effective combat action.

Also also, fighter bonus feats tend to gravitate to requirements at +1, +4, +8, +12, or +16 base attack, so I suppose I'm subconsciously wanting to regularize its requirements with other fighter bonus feats of similar power.

Adamantrue
2011-09-23, 04:41 PM
OK, I'm back to considering different angles for filling out a group of Feats that use the pool Tenacity provides. I thought I'd start throwing ideas out there, run them by people to get their opinions as far as which ones are good ideas, which ones aren't, and maybe get some additional thoughts on it outside my own head. Note...these names are horrible.

"Lesser Mettle": Spend a use as an immediate action to buff your Fort or Will saves by X (haven't figured out X yet, probably a morale bonus). Counts as Great Fortitude & Iron Will for the purposes of Feats & PrCs.

"Dauntless": In any round that you use Tenacity, gain DR X/-.

"Reactive Fortification": Spend a use to negate a critical hit or sneak attack (as well as related abilities, such as from Ambush Feats). Use any number of times in a round.

"Extra Tenacity": Additional daily uses of the Feat. Boring, but consistent with existing Feats.

Adamantrue
2011-12-02, 09:37 AM
Back to working on this.

Damage Control [General]
Though you can't avoid a blow, you can lessen its impact with less vital parts of the body.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +10, Tenacity.
Benefit: When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored against you, you can spend 2 uses of the Tenacity feat to negate it for that single attack, and instead take the normal damage. Any effects that depend on your opponents ability to score a critical hit or sneak attack (such as a vorpal weapon or the use of an Ambush feat) is also negated by the use of this feat.
You cannot use this feat if you are flat-footed or otherwise helpless. You may use this any number of times each round.
Special: A fighter may select Damage Control as one of his bonus feats.

Resolute Mettle [General]
You can withstand even the most potent attacks without breaking your resolve.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +9, Tenacity.
Benefit: As an immediate action, you may spend a use of the Tenacity feat to gain a +4 morale bonus to either Fortitude or Will saves. This bonus lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Special: For the purposes of qualifying for feats or prestige classes, Resolute Mettle counts as both Great Fortitude and Iron Will.