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View Full Version : Vote Up A Paladin Fix! Round 3, Part I



Ziegander
2011-09-06, 09:51 PM
Vote Up A Paladin Fix

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cZvu50zKf7A/SmnmCjeakfI/AAAAAAAAAHA/XifdLhgx-K0/s400/dragonborn_paladin_final.jpg

In Round 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11621804) we established the primary aspects of the Paladin fix we're working on to be Protector, Physical, Agent of Good/Healer/Smite, and Commander (in that order of importance).

In Round 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213175) we established that the general flavor concept that will guide the mechanical design of our Paladin is that of the Gray-Guard (see spoiler).

The Paladin is a man whose devotion is given to two sides of the same coin: defend the righteous/destroy the wicked. By whatever means necessary, the Paladin will ensure that the innocent are protected and that foul deeds do not go unpunished. His skill set is well-suited to those aims and he is possessed of the moral flexibility to ensure that a crisis of faith never stops him from getting the job done. A masterful combatant, the Paladin is also a skilled tracker and a scholar of ancient arts - some white, some black. Combining martial training with naturalistic skills and alchemical knowledge, the Paladin can offer medicine to friends and punish foes with dark rituals. He is whatever Good needs him to be, sometimes a knight shining, but also sometimes far more dirty.


In this, the third round, I will begin designing the class proper, and as I do, the voters will let me know when and where I'm going wrong. The third round will be all about levels 1 - 5. In later rounds we will concentrate on class features of higher levels.

If I've gotten something right, voters should let me know by quoting the relevant text and responding with a +1. If I totally screwed something up, voters should quote and respond with a -1.

Let's go ahead and keep this one open for let's say 15 days. Seems good. Every 5 days, I will tally the pluses and minuses. Any feature with less than +1 will be replaced with something new (or possibly merely re-written based on feedback). In this round, voters are free, and encouraged, to vote more than once - even for things they've already voted on (but no more than once per day).

Alignment: Any (Non-Evil?)
Hit Die: 1d10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Agency

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Defiant Stand, Guardian's Glare, Smite Evil (+1d6)|
1

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Armored Ease I|
1

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Smite Evil (+1d6, -1 penalty)|
2

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Warning Shout|
2

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Smite Evil (+2d6, -1 penalty)|
3
[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A Paladin is proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as the bola, net, and whip. A Paladin is proficient with light and medium armors as well as shields (but not Tower Shields).

Agent of Good
While a Paladin himself is not necessary of Good alignment he wholly believes in the ideal of Good and devotes himself to promoting the most overall Good that he can through his actions. He is not some knight-priest or temple enforcer; the paladin does whatever he must to further the cause of Good. Sometimes this requires him to defend the meek and heal the sick, other times this requires him to punish the wicked and skulk in the shadows.

A Paladin starts with 1 Agency Point (AP) and gains an additional AP every odd-numbered level after 1st. These AP are used to buy certain abilities or consumable items and refresh at the start of each day. Abilities gained last only until the next time the Paladin's AP are refreshed.

A Paladin must get 8 hours of complete rest in order to refresh his AP. He may elect to spend his AP at any time during the day, but spending his AP, regardless of how many he spends at a time, always requires 1 hour of uninterrupted concentration.

Examples

Healer's Hands (1 point) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you gain a +5 bonus to Heal checks, +1 per two Paladin levels, and once per day, per ally, restore 1d6 hit points to allies you successfully stabilize.

Crafty Alchemist (1 point) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you may craft alchemical items as though you were a spellcaster and gain a +5 bonus to all Craft checks, +1 per two Paladin levels.

Call of the Wild (1 point) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you gain the Wild Empathy ability as a Druid of your Paladin levels, as well as a +5 bonus to Handle Animal, Ride, and Wild Empathy checks, +1 per two Paladin levels.

Peril Runner (1 point) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you gain the Trapfinding special ability and a +5 bonus to Disable Device and Search checks, +1 per two Paladin levels.

Unseen Stalker (1 point) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you gain a +5 bonus to Hide, Move Silently, and Survival checks, +1 per two Paladin levels.

Heights of Heroism (2 points) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you gain the benefits of any feat on the Fighter's list of bonus feats for which you meet the prerequisites.

Smite Interloper (2 points) - Until the next time you refresh your AP, whenever a creature attacks any other creature that is friendly to you (not including yourself), for 1 round you consider that creature evil for the purposes of your Smite Evil ability.

Trackless Tracker (2 points) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you gain the benefits of the Track feat, you leave no trail, and you cannot be detected by scent.

Sadistic Strike (Healer's Hands, 2 points) - The first time you deal damage to a foe each encounter you may make a Heal check at a DC equal to that foe's armor class. For the rest of the encounter you deal 1d6 sneak attack damage against that foe if the check succeeds and for every 5 points you exceed the check DC.

Ethalas Infusion (Crafty Alchemist, 2 points) - You gain three unstable vials of Ethalas Infusion which become worthless the next time you refresh your AP. Any creature that imbibes one of these infusions regains 3d12 hit points +1 per Paladin level (maximum +15). Hit points regained over a creature's maximum hit points are given as temporary hit points that last until the next time you refresh your AP.

Animal Companion (Call of the Wild, 2 points) - Until the next time you refresh your AP you gain the service of an animal companion as a Druid of your Paladin level.

Break Will (3 points) - Until the next time you refresh your AP, whenever a creature fails its saving throw against your Guardian's Glare that creature suffers a -2 penalty to Wisdom for the rest of the encounter. This penalty can stack with itself but is overlapped by Wisdom damage or penalties from other sources.

Skilled Surgeon (Healer's Hands, 3 points) - Until the next time you refresh your AP, for every five points you exceed the Heal check DC you may administer long-term care in half the time (DC 20 for 4 hours, DC 25 for 2 hours, DC 30 for 1 hour, etc).

[...]

Witchpyre Draught (Crafty Alchemist, [...], ? points) - You gain an unstable vial of Witchpyre Draught which becomes worthless the next time you refresh your AP. This vial contains enough dose to be applied once as a grenade-like weapon, three times as an injury poison, or five times as an ingested poison (Fort DC 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Wisdom modifier). A creature that is poisoned by Witchpyre Draught is unable to cast spells or use spell-like abilities and is unable to benefit from any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability for 1d6x10 minutes. Even on a successful save, Witchpyre Draught automatically removes curse, enchantment, and transmutation effects as Break Enchantment, but with no caster level check.


Defiant Stand (Ex): For a total number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier +1 per Paladin level, a Paladin may enter (or end) a Defiant Stand on his turn. These rounds need not all be taken consecutively, however, after his Defiant Stand ends, the Paladin is Fatigued for twice the number of consecutive rounds. During a Defiant Stand, both the Paladin and unfriendly creatures within 5ft per Paladin level treat that area as difficult terrain. The Paladin also adds his Charisma modifier to attack and damage rolls, to AC, and to saving throws, and delays all hit point damage dealt to him.

Hit point damage dealt to the Paladin is added to a delayed damage pool, rather than subtracted from his hit points. At the end of his Defiant Stand, the Paladin is dealt an amount of damage equal to that in his delayed damage pool. If an attack that deals hit point damage to the Paladin carries an additional effect such as ability score damage or stunning the Paladin makes any associated saves upon being subject to the attack, but does not suffer the additional effect, even on a failed save, until the end of his Defiant Stand.

Guardian's Glare (Ex): A Paladin is a devout defender of his allies, and even at 1st level his presence on the battlefield is hard to ignore. Within 5ft per Paladin level, creatures hostile to the Paladin's allies must make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Charisma modifier) at the start of each of their turns.

A creature that fails this save suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls and must attempt to harm the Paladin instead of any of his allies if the Paladin is closer (area effects must originate as close to the Paladin as possible). A creature that makes this save is immune to the effect for up to 24 hours or until the Paladin hits it with an attack.

Alternative Guardian's Glare

Enemies within 5ft per Paladin level with Intelligence scores of 3 or higher suffer a -4 penalty to attack rolls against the Paladin's allies. Furthermore, if an enemy attacks one of the Paladin's allies rather than attacking him, for 1 round he treats that enemy as evil for the purposes of his Smite Evil class feature (see below). Enemies with Intelligence scores of 3 or higher are well-aware of this threat as evidenced by the Paladin's piercing stare.


Smite Evil (Ex): A Paladin deals an additional 1d6 points of damage any time he attacks an evil creature. This extra damage increases by 1d6 at 5th level and every four levels thereafter.

Starting at 3rd level, evil creatures threatened by the Paladin suffer a -1 penalty to AC and saving throws. This penalty increases by 1 at 7th level and every four levels thereafter.

Armored Ease (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Paladin begins to learn ways to adapt his fighting style and his everyday life to wearing protective armor. As he gains levels he develops more effective ways of wearing his armor until it becomes as a second skin.

Armored Ease I - The Paladin is no longer fatigued after sleeping in his armor, halves the time required to don and remove his armor, and adds +1 to the armor bonus of any armor he wears and reduces his armor's check penalty by 1 as well. The armor bonus and check penalty reduction both increase by 1 at 6th level and once every four levels thereafter.

Warning Shout (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Paladin may spend 2 rounds of his Defiant Stand for the day as an immediate action to remove the flat-footed condition from allies within 5ft per Paladin level. This effect benefits the Paladin himself and may be used even during a surprise round.

Togath
2011-09-06, 10:22 PM
For the protector aspect, perhaps granting some sort of DR(as the barbarian) or delayed damage(as the crusader) could be a good starting point, in addition, a D12 hd could help reinforce the protector concept as well.

For healing, maybe some sort of channeled healing(such as expend a turn attempt to heal X number of hp?), or something like the grey guard’s(the prestige class) damaging touch ability(channel points from a pool to either deal damage or heal damage), both are fairly interesting mechanic ideas(the channeled points more so than the turn attempts), and both are present in a form on the base paladin(so an improved version of one could help tie this fix to the old paladin, while still remaining a new ability[by making it more useful and easier to use]).

In addition, one idea I had for helping with group protection(rather than just personal survivability) could be some sort of buffing aura, or some way to discourage enemies from attacking weaker members of your party.

TravelLog
2011-09-06, 10:30 PM
I think we should break each aspect down into a stage. So for this stage, let's hammer out Protection/Physical (3a). Next stage, we can cover the tree for healing/Smiting (3b). And finally we can cover the minor Commander aspect (3c).

Aside from that, I think it might be good to give us a bunch of possible class features, etc. For us to discuss and vote on. Then we come up with a consolidated shortlist and actually create the abilities. Then proceed to the next stage.

silphael
2011-09-06, 11:25 PM
I agree with Travel, we should work on the Protector aspect first, then the physical (possibly together as they are bounded in a way).

I think that some things are important for it: mettle, evasion, maybe some DR, and a way to reduce armor check penalties (as move penalties).

nonsi
2011-09-07, 12:08 AM
1. Bulwark of Defense
2. Mimic the Iron Guard’s Glare stance (actually, almost anything you can steal from Devoted Spirit)

Ziegander
2011-09-07, 11:35 AM
I think we should break each aspect down into a stage. So for this stage, let's hammer out Protection/Physical (3a). Next stage, we can cover the tree for healing/Smiting (3b). And finally we can cover the minor Commander aspect (3c).

Aside from that, I think it might be good to give us a bunch of possible class features, etc. For us to discuss and vote on. Then we come up with a consolidated shortlist and actually create the abilities. Then proceed to the next stage.

Well, this was my only idea, really, but I don't know how to make it work right... Because, like I say above, Physical really applies to just about everything, it just tells us that the Paladin isn't supernatural or magical or divine. So, then, I thought, yeah we can do a round for Protection based mechanics, then we can do a round for Agent of Good/Healing/Smiting based mechanics, then we can finish up with a round for Commander based mechanics.

I'll just have to come up with LOTS of different stuff and all of it needs to make sense for the Gray-Guard concept (note: the end name of the class is going to be Paladin).


1. Bulwark of Defense
2. Mimic the Iron Guard’s Glare stance (actually, almost anything you can steal from Devoted Spirit)

Well, I mean, I have enough to go on to design the class myself. My problem is how to proceed with the Vote Up format which is what I want to do.

nonsi
2011-09-07, 01:25 PM
Well, I mean, I have enough to go on to design the class myself. My problem is how to proceed with the Vote Up format which is what I want to do.


Far from the method of multiple-choice, but I have an idea that might produce the best result:
I suggest you make anywhere between 3 and 5 candidate Paladin classes and let people discuss what each of them brings to the table to embody what the Paladin is supposed to be.

The final version should be a resilient and resourceful mesh of the proposed classes that at each level (on the average) throughout levels 1 - 20 gains as much as the core Paladin gains at levels 1 - 3.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-09-11, 02:04 AM
The problem I've seen with a lot of defender builds is that they have no way of preventing enemies from just walking around them. A taunt mechanism is often designed to deal with this, but that's already a knight thing, and I feel the paladin should get something more unique. One idea that strikes me as interesting is to let the paladin move, perhaps even just 5 or 10 feet, as an immediate action, on someone else's turn. This way a paladin defender could intercept a charge, move in to aid another, prevent the 5-foot step to better lockdown spellcasters... I'm sure there would be other uses as well.

How mundane is this paladin going to be? I could see the healing aspect met with something similar to lay on hands, though I'd like it if it could be used a little faster, or maybe at a distance even.

Also charisma to everything. Take divine grace and run with it. Charisma to AC? Why not!? Charisma to saves and AC of allies within 15 feet? Yeah sure why not?

If I had my way, smite evil would be taken out. It's just awkward, I don't even know. But I imagine it's too iconic to remove.

Howler Dagger
2011-09-11, 10:36 AM
One idea that intend on using in the future, which you could borrow, was that the class would gain a special number of AOO per turn equal to his class level/4 + Con modifier (this could be changed to charisma). They could be used for things such as making a normal AOO, make an AO) when an adjacent enemy targets an ally with an attack but not you, Move when a enemy targets and ally with a ranged attack or charge, intercepting the attack. You could have a list of options to choose from, and the paladin could gain some at every few levels.

Elfstone
2011-09-11, 01:14 PM
The problem I've seen with a lot of defender builds is that they have no way of preventing enemies from just walking around them. A taunt mechanism is often designed to deal with this, but that's already a knight thing, and I feel the paladin should get something more unique. One idea that strikes me as interesting is to let the paladin move, perhaps even just 5 or 10 feet, as an immediate action, on someone else's turn. This way a paladin defender could intercept a charge, move in to aid another, prevent the 5-foot step to better lockdown spellcasters... I'm sure there would be other uses as well.

How mundane is this paladin going to be? I could see the healing aspect met with something similar to lay on hands, though I'd like it if it could be used a little faster, or maybe at a distance even.

Also charisma to everything. Take divine grace and run with it. Charisma to AC? Why not!? Charisma to saves and AC of allies within 15 feet? Yeah sure why not?

If I had my way, smite evil would be taken out. It's just awkward, I don't even know. But I imagine it's too iconic to remove.

I agree with most of this, as well as adding Steal the dwarven defender's not so horrible features and add them in as minor abilities, for fun. Difficult terrains isn't horrible if its an ability gained at lv 5....

Ziegander
2011-09-12, 01:31 PM
Okay, I'm back. Life has been pretty hectic these days. Anyway, what I'm going to do at this point, and I know it'll disappoint some of you, is just design the first five levels and post them up. These levels will establish any continuing patterns for the next fifteen levels and should give a reasonable showing of all of the voted-up aspects of the class.

Then I'd like to ask the voters to pick the levels apart, if necessary. If you like a mechanic, let me know, and give it a +1. If you don't like a mechanic, say so, and give it a -1.

Okay?

EDIT: Okay, original post and thread title have been edited! The first five levels of the Paladin class are up! Let's do this!

Togath
2011-09-12, 06:46 PM
Not to sound critical, but, why does it lack lay on hands?, It seems as iconic as smite evil, and helps it fulfill it's healer role.

I'm also voting -1 for agency points, it seems needlessly complex, and isn't that powerful, and just doesn't seem like something a physical based and protection based character would specialize in, it seems more like an ability for a class like bard(3.5 bard) or alchemist(pf).

eftexar
2011-09-12, 07:49 PM
Agent of Good +1
I like the flexibility.

Gaurdian's Glare -1
Meh. Just seems weird to me.

Defiant Stand +1
Adding paladin level to this might be a bit powerful though (even 2 + con is incredibly useful).

Smite Evil +1
Hurray for a smite evil that doesn't suck.

Armored Ease -1
Meh. Useful I suppose, but not flavorful enough for me.

Warning Shout +1
I don't think this needs limited to uses per day though. Maybe just give it a recharge time (sort of like a dragons breathe weapon).

Jade Dragon
2011-09-12, 08:05 PM
Defiant Stand +1
Adding paladin level to this might be a bit powerful though (even 2 + con is incredibly useful).

You did see the "per day" part, right?

Ziegander
2011-09-12, 08:17 PM
I should probably edit in some "Designer's Notes" into the original post to give a better idea of my thought process, but for now here's an effort to defend my initial design.


For healing, maybe some sort of channeled healing(such as expend a turn attempt to heal X number of hp?), or something like the grey guard’s(the prestige class) damaging touch ability(channel points from a pool to either deal damage or heal damage), both are fairly interesting mechanic ideas(the channeled points more so than the turn attempts), and both are present in a form on the base paladin(so an improved version of one could help tie this fix to the old paladin, while still remaining a new ability).

This kind of mechanic is supernatural and/or divine in nature, something I was under the impression that Round 1 had established this class was not going to be.


Not to sound critical, but, why does it lack lay on hands?, It seems as iconic as smite evil, and helps it fulfill it's healer role.

Simply because the ability to lay hands on someone and heal their wounds is, again, supernatural and/or divine, while hitting evil guys harder doesn't have to be.


I'm also voting [B]-1 for agency points, it seems needlessly complex, and isn't that powerful, and just doesn't seem like something a physical based and protection based character would specialize in, it seems more like an ability for a class like bard(3.5 bard) or alchemist(pf).

1) What's complex about it?

2) The plans are to implement abilities and consumables that are on par with Warlock invocations, with costs all the way up to 9 AP. The 1 AP abilities aren't meant to be very powerful since 1st level's already pretty sweet. The point is to grant tons of versatility and interesting new actions for the Paladin as he gains more AP.

3) I thought the idea of using potions and poisons and otherwise "natural" stuff was all-systems-go considering how the votes in Round 2 went. Does anyone else think that that sort of thing isn't "something a physical based and protection based character would specialize in?"

nonsi
2011-09-14, 12:42 AM
Ok, he're what I found so far:
- 'Alignment: Any' doesn't add up.
- Definitely the Alternative Guardian's Glare.
- You don't defend much if you're down for the count. He should get Mettle within the first 5 levels.
- Don't fill the table with Smite Evil repetitions, unless you allow yourself to put more than one feature per class level. The more features - the more you have for fleshing out the Paladin's role.

Togath
2011-09-14, 01:16 AM
One thing I just thought of is this; is this fix going to get a spellcasting progression?

eftexar
2011-09-14, 01:49 AM
I did see the per day swift mongoose, but the ability completely delays damage (and this is a very powerful concept). And I said it might be 'a bit powerful'. I didn't say overpowered and won't know if it is until I see the summation of other class features. Actually, and I'm not sure if this was mentioned somewhere, what tier is this going for? If it wasn't mentioned, I vote that we vote on it :smalltongue:.
And please no spellcasting! At least not the normal types. The problem with spellcasting in the original paladin was its limited choices and adding actual useful spellcasting to this paladin might be overpowered (when in addition to class features at every level). So I'm putting in a prevote of no, because I would rather have a bunch of unique and flavorful features than spellcasting.

Ziegander
2011-09-14, 02:13 AM
One thing I just thought of is this; is this fix going to get a spellcasting progression?


And please no spellcasting! So I'm putting in a prevote of no, because I would rather have a bunch of unique and flavorful features than spellcasting.

Both of you voted in Round 1 right? It's linked to in the OP. Spellcasting got a really low number of votes, and part of the point of voting up four separate aspects in Round 1 was to establish what the Paladin is but just as much to establish what it is not. So, as far as I was concerned spellcasting has been right out since the end of Round 1.

Now I'm a bit confused. I feel like my expectations of what was decided in the first two rounds might not match the expectations of the voters. :smalleek:

Togath
2011-09-14, 02:37 AM
To be honest, as I've found out now, I had misunderstood how the voting worked for the last two rounds, I had thought lay on hands, smite evil, the special mount and the spell casting abilities were going to stay at least in some form, and we were voting on what types of new abilities to add in addition to them.
While I realize that the round 1 votes don't matter much at this point(as that faze is finished), I would(if I had understood back then) voted spellcasting, healer, enemy of undead, and protector.
sorry about having caused a misunderstanding.:smallredface: