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Gandariel
2011-09-07, 11:28 AM
Hi to all. I'm not good at optimisation (actually, i don't own any books, and i only played a couple of PbP games)
but, while creating a charachter for a game, i had this awesome idea:

Race: Jermlairie, a kind of fey which was gently suggested to me. Long story short, it has tiny size, +6 dex and a ton of penalties to other stats (excepted for a +6 Wis, which i don't even need)

(Yeah, maybe it's not such a great choice.. but it gives me Dex, that's enough for me and i don't even know where to look for other races)

the magic of 4d6b3 gave me these scores(after adjustments):
Str 1
Dex 23
Con 11
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 6

i looked up some things on crossbow, and came up with this:
Barbarian(Whirling Frenzy variant)1/Fighter2/Rogue1 (Actually Rogue X, but the cool point in the build is level 4)

with two flaws, the starting feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid shot and Rapid reload
I wield a Light Crossbow (weighs 4 pounds for a Medium charachter, divided by 2 for each size smaller is 1 pound, and my light load is at 1,5 pounds)
So at first level i have 3 attacks (Rapid shot and Whirling Frenzy)
at an attack bonus of 1(BAB)+6(dex)+2(size)+1(PoinBlank) - 4(the two extra attacks)
or +6/+6/+6
for 1d4+1 damage

and that's nice.
Now. Two levels of fighter give me three feats (with the 3rd level feat). I pick Precise shot, Weapon focus and Crossbow Sniper (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-488-crossbow-sniper.html)

now my attack bonus is 3(bab)+6(dex)+2(size)+1(PoinBlank)+1(WeapFocus)+1M WK -4 (extra attacks) or +10/+10/+10
damage is 1d4+1+3(half dex)

With a level of Rogue, i get a sneak attack dice (very nice since now i can sneak attack from 60 ft away)
At 4th level i also increase my Dex to 24, for a +7 bonus

Attacks are now +11/+11/+11 for 1d4+4+1d6 (average 10) (11 if the crossbow is a +1Crossbow)

If i manage to enchant my weapon with, say, Shock, there's a nice d6 more of damage.


So, how do you think it is? any suggestions?

Flickerdart
2011-09-07, 12:08 PM
Your crossbow weighs 2/3rds of your light load. Okay. How much do your bolts weigh? How much does your Efficient Quiver weigh?

Zombimode
2011-09-07, 12:11 PM
Your clothing? :smallcool:

Human Paragon 3
2011-09-07, 12:13 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't reducing by a size category reduce the weight of a weapon to 1/8 of its normal weight (as per the reduce spell)?

wormwood
2011-09-07, 12:14 PM
Whirling Frenzy actually gives an extra attack with a crossbow? Weird.

Flickerdart
2011-09-07, 12:15 PM
Whirling Frenzy actually gives an extra attack with a crossbow? Weird.
It gives an extra attack, what you do with it is your business.

Gandariel
2011-09-07, 12:21 PM
clothing doesn't count towards weight, and smaller weapons weigh half( check d20.com)

And, bolts can't weigh too much, since the crossbow itself weighs one pound.

(And for that matter, i can easily buy a mule to carry stuff for me)

Flickerdart
2011-09-07, 12:23 PM
40 bolts weigh as much as a single crossbow. You can only carry 20 bolts - and with three attacks per round, that means you run dry in seven rounds. Try not to get into any extended combats.

drakir_nosslin
2011-09-07, 12:26 PM
See if you can get a custom magic quiver that creates non-magical bolts when you need them. I think that WotC statted up cattie-bries bow that behaves similar, perhaps you could use that as baseline.

Gandariel
2011-09-07, 12:31 PM
i just carry 20 withh me and have my mule carry the rest... seven rounds are usually enough for a fight, and we can say i take a fullround action to draw 20 bolts from my mule,,,

Vladislav
2011-09-07, 12:55 PM
Take a level of Hit-and-Run Fighter (Drow of the Underdark) - loses Heavy Armor proficiency (which you don't need anyway), gains +Dex to damage vs. flat-footed enemies.

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-07, 01:00 PM
Also crossbow sniper would do you well. 1/2 dex to damage and sneak attack out to 60ft.

NecroRick
2011-09-07, 01:06 PM
crossbow is a +1Crossbow)
If i manage to enchant my weapon with, say, Shock, there's a nice d6 more of damage.

So, how do you think it is? any suggestions?

Yeah, ditch the crappy Shock Modifier and add the extra-awesomesauce "Quickloading" modifier - see p41 MIC. You will like it, I guarantee it. :D

In addition to saving you a feat, it also solves the bolt weight nitpick that people have been going on at you about :D

For bonus points, figure out how to turn your donkeys extra dimensional too.


See if you can get a custom magic quiver that creates non-magical bolts when you need them. I think that WotC statted up cattie-bries bow that behaves similar, perhaps you could use that as baseline.

Search for Forcebow I think gets it:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

Eh, they call it energy bow. Ok.

See also: "Force" p35 MIC (it's not quite the same thing, my reading of the one in the MIC is that you still need ammo, whereas the energy bow doesn't)

Gandariel
2011-09-07, 01:27 PM
Yeah, ditch the crappy Shock Modifier and add the extra-awesomesauce "Quickloading" modifier - see p41 MIC. You will like it, I guarantee it. :D

In addition to saving you a feat, it also solves the bolt weight nitpick that people have been going on at you about :D

yeah, but that sounds costly. i need to use this build from level one, and hence i need rapid reload.. (though saving a feat would be GREAT...)

Siosilvar
2011-09-07, 02:12 PM
yeah, but that sounds costly. i need to use this build from level one, and hence i need rapid reload.. (though saving a feat would be GREAT...)

Quickloading costs exactly as much as Shock does (+1). That doesn't really help you beforehand, though...

Morph Bark
2011-09-07, 02:21 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't reducing by a size category reduce the weight of a weapon to 1/8 of its normal weight (as per the reduce spell)?

Reduce Person and Enlarge Person do things differently from normal because it's magic and it expands or shrinks everything in all three dimensions, so armour becomes a lot thicker/thinner as well. Hence why Enlarge Person can be nasty due to giving only +2 Strength while making everything you carry 8 times as heavy, while Reduce Person just lightens things up a lot for you.

MukkTB
2011-09-07, 02:32 PM
I would look at the max load of the character. Then I would do a little research into the force necessary to draw a crossbow back. If those numbers didn't jive I wouldn't let you load the thing.

faceroll
2011-09-07, 02:50 PM
What were your scores before rolling? It looks like you may be entitled to a reroll.

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-07, 02:59 PM
And watch out for Str damage, one point and you are down.

Gandariel
2011-09-07, 03:01 PM
nah, my starting scores were okay, 17 13 13 12 8 4

Well.. not exactly great, but ok.
At one point i wanted to make a sorcerer and put that four in Wis, just for roleplaying reasons.

I supposed Str can't be less than 1 for starting scores, so i put the four there and then applied the -6 racial penalty..


And, i found the way to make myself immune to Ray of Enfeeblement!

Urpriest
2011-09-07, 03:45 PM
I would look at the max load of the character. Then I would do a little research into the force necessary to draw a crossbow back. If those numbers didn't jive I wouldn't let you load the thing.

In D&D there is no force necessary to draw a crossbow back. Compare to bows.

Daftendirekt
2011-09-07, 04:47 PM
(weighs 4 pounds for a Medium charachter, divided by 2 for each size smaller is 1 pound, and my light load is at 1,5 pounds)


Not sure where you're getting that from. According to page 162 of the PHB, for a medium creature that has 1 strength, a light load is 3 pounds or less. It would be half that for a tiny creature, so 1.5 pounds is your light load.

Greyfeld
2011-09-07, 05:15 PM
nah, my starting scores were okay, 17 13 13 12 8 4

Actually, due to that 4, you're allowed a reroll. According to standard stat rolling rules, if your total ability score bonus is +3 or lower, you get a reroll. And yours is:

3 + 1 + 1 + 1 - 1 - 3 = +2

A grand total of +2.

As far as weight is concerned, I'd just hand-wave it. The SRD shows an asterisk in the weight column for both crossbows and crossbow bolts for Tiny creatures... which officially means, "the SRD gives neither this value nor a means to determine it," and I take to mean, "not enough to bugger with calculating."

As far as how to build your character is concerned, I have to wonder, why crossbow instead of a longbow? With the latter, you don't have to waste feats trying to get your reload time down to a free action.

Ajadea
2011-09-07, 05:25 PM
You need at least 10 Strength to properly use longbows or shortbows. A negative Strength modifier applies to damage.

Elric VIII
2011-09-07, 05:46 PM
As far as how to build your character is concerned, I have to wonder, why crossbow instead of a longbow? With the latter, you don't have to waste feats trying to get your reload time down to a free action.

Longbows, shortbows, slings, and thrown weapons take a damage penalty due to low Str, crossbows do not.


You need at least 10 Strength to properly use longbows or shortbows. A negative Strength modifier applies to damage.

Technically, you could do it with lots of bonus SA damage, but it'll be hard.

nyarlathotep
2011-09-07, 06:08 PM
I thought that 3 was still the minimum ability score for players.

Knaight
2011-09-07, 06:14 PM
I thought that 3 was still the minimum ability score for players.

That is just for Intelligence, due to 1 and 2 being animal intelligence.

Qwertystop
2011-09-07, 06:15 PM
I thought that 3 was still the minimum ability score for players.

Only for INT. 3 INT is the minimum for sentience, language, and class levels.

Vladislav
2011-09-07, 06:45 PM
I would look at the max load of the character. Then I would do a little research into the force necessary to draw a crossbow back. If those numbers didn't jive I wouldn't let you load the thing.This is a phenomena known as Realism For The Loss. It is harmful and should be avoided at all costs, because it often leads into another, even more harmful phenomena, commonly known as Maybe I Should Just Play A Druid Instead.

NNescio
2011-09-07, 06:46 PM
This is a phenomena known as Realism For The Loss. It is harmful and should be avoided at all costs, because it often leads into another, even more harmful phenomena, commonly known as Maybe I Should Just Play A Druid Instead.

Or Any Of the Classes that Let Me Tell Physics to Shut Up and Sit Down.

SowZ
2011-09-07, 09:11 PM
Targeteer is a Fighter Variant that allows you to get two exotic weapon proficiencies at level one for free, (Repeating Heavy Crossbow, anyone?) and instead of a first level feat you get an ability that allows you to add your full Dex to damage on ranged attacks. Other than that, it will function just like fighter for you. You lose one bonus feat and get some powerful stuff. Plus, the use of a repeating crossbow should be welcome.

Jjeinn-tae
2011-09-07, 09:34 PM
I personally like to mix a bit of scout in with crossbows; but I have a link that you might find interesting:

The Archery Handbook (Crossbows) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=r5898i5qha9hsleptfvpsgq045&topic=642.msg15068#msg15068)

Unfortunately your carrying capacity does not enable my favorite tactic of dropping weapons mid fight to use other weapons, which is pretty useful for crossbows...

Lestroisrois
2011-09-07, 09:43 PM
Targeteer is a Fighter Variant that allows you to get two exotic weapon proficiencies at level one for free, (Repeating Heavy Crossbow, anyone?) and instead of a first level feat you get an ability that allows you to add your full Dex to damage on ranged attacks. Other than that, it will function just like fighter for you. You lose one bonus feat and get some powerful stuff. Plus, the use of a repeating crossbow should be welcome.

The two exotic weapon proficiencies allow the repeating Heavy Crossbow and a personal favorite of mine, the quickrazors. If you get Weapon Finesse, it'll be a "He's small and ranged, he'll be bad in [SHLRRRRRP] ...close...combat?"
Also, since you're tiny and have sneak attack, you should take Confound the Big folk to deny your opponent their dex modifier and automatically always qualify for sneak attack, etc., against medium enemies and larger.

Hope these help. :smallcool:

Jade Dragon
2011-09-07, 09:53 PM
This is a phenomena known as Realism For The Loss. It is harmful and should be avoided at all costs, because it often leads into another, even more harmful phenomena, commonly known as Maybe I Should Just Play A Druid Instead.

But... but... +6 wisdom... there shouldn't even be a maybe...

Fizban
2011-09-07, 09:53 PM
Unless you really really need the extra attack during one fight per day at 1st level I'd leave off the Barbarian, but that might just be me. Starting with Rogue gives you more skill points, sneak attack (so you actually deal damage before Sniper) and most importantly: hand crossbow proficiency. Why is that important? Well, I just like the idea of taking the lowest damage crossbow and making it even smaller so it only deals 1 point per shot (okay it'd actually be 1d2). It also lets you save a feat by taking Hand Crossbow Focus instead of WF/Rapid Shot. And it should weigh less.

The buff you'll want ASAP is Fell the Greatest Foe, which will give you an extra d6 of damage for every size larger something is than you. Brings you back up to normal damage against mediums and gets better from there. Scroll it, wand it, bully your cleric into it, whatever. The 1st level swift action spell Sniper's Shot is also nice, letting you sneak attack with no max range for a round, though one problem with the Hand Crossbow is the range. Guided Shot is the same, but removing your range penalties and miss chance instead of uncapping your sneak attack distance. Extending one or the other will let you use both at once.

Runestar
2011-09-07, 09:56 PM
Seems you may be better off just playing a warlock instead. Your touch attack bonus will be insane, between your small size and high dex. :smalltongue:

SowZ
2011-09-07, 10:07 PM
The two exotic weapon proficiencies allow the repeating Heavy Crossbow and a personal favorite of mine, the quickrazors. If you get Weapon Finesse, it'll be a "He's small and ranged, he'll be bad in [SHLRRRRRP] ...close...combat?"
Also, since you're tiny and have sneak attack, you should take Confound the Big folk to deny your opponent their dex modifier and automatically always qualify for sneak attack, etc., against medium enemies and larger.

Hope these help. :smallcool:

Oh, wait, I just remembered, Vital strike doesn't work with a negative strength mod. Targeteer lets you choose from a list of special abilities, though, so you could pick a different one and still get the prof. For example, you can give up extra attacks based on BAB to increase the threat range. OR you can forgoe the abilities entirely and just take feats like a fighter. If you do that, the only difference between normal Fighter and Targeteer is slightly different skills and Two Exotic Weapon Prof. instead of Martial Prof. That's it. It doesn't hurt you at all, (the new skills include Hide/Move Silent, which take advantage of your sweet Dex,) and you get a clear advantage.

Stix
2011-09-07, 10:22 PM
This Jermlarie you speak of intrigues me. what book is it in? or is it a homebrew?

faceroll
2011-09-07, 10:33 PM
This Jermlarie you speak of intrigues me. what book is it in? or is it a homebrew?

MM2 I believe. They're ugly little buggers.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-09-07, 10:39 PM
Too bad there's no way to work something like Intuitive Attack into this mix, to take advantage of that +6 racial bonus to WIS...

SowZ
2011-09-07, 11:06 PM
Too bad there's no way to work something like Intuitive Attack into this mix, to take advantage of that +6 racial bonus to WIS...

You could trade a fighter level in for raging monk so you can get your Wis as a bonus to your AC and get an extra rage each day and get Improved Initiative. You won't be using unarmed strike much, but you don't get flurry of blows so that isn't wasted.

By dipping a level in monk instead of fighter, you still get a bonus feat, (albeit it is a limited list. But with your Dex AND improved init. you will be going first in combat a lot,) all good saves, better skill points, an extra rage, what could easily be a substantial AC bonus, and hey, improved unarmed strike! Kind of useless but it may save your life. What do you trade away? An average of 1HP more and 1 BAB.

If you are worried about XP penalties, you can always take Martial Monk. While it doesn't get the extra rage, it makes the Fighter levels not count against XP penalties AND the bonus feat can be any Fighter feat. That way, you don't have to redo your feats so you are trading in a +1 to hit and 1 HP, (two if you use max HD,) for +2 Will, +2 Reflex, +2 Skill points, an AC bonus... I think it is a better deal for you. And you can always grab the second level of fighter later.

I also hate to see a +6 to a stat totally wasted.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-09-08, 01:56 PM
You could trade a fighter level in for raging monk so you can get your Wis as a bonus to your AC and get an extra rage each day and get Improved Initiative. You won't be using unarmed strike much, but you don't get flurry of blows so that isn't wasted.

By dipping a level in monk instead of fighter, you still get a bonus feat, (albeit it is a limited list. But with your Dex AND improved init. you will be going first in combat a lot,) all good saves, better skill points, an extra rage, what could easily be a substantial AC bonus, and hey, improved unarmed strike! Kind of useless but it may save your life. What do you trade away? An average of 1HP more and 1 BAB.

If you are worried about XP penalties, you can always take Martial Monk. While it doesn't get the extra rage, it makes the Fighter levels not count against XP penalties AND the bonus feat can be any Fighter feat. That way, you don't have to redo your feats so you are trading in a +1 to hit and 1 HP, (two if you use max HD,) for +2 Will, +2 Reflex, +2 Skill points, an AC bonus... I think it is a better deal for you. And you can always grab the second level of fighter later.

I also hate to see a +6 to a stat totally wasted.

+1.

Is this strategy in any way plausible with a sling, or does a sling incur STR penalties? Away from books.

EDIT: Nevermind, sling is not plausible. Source: SRD.

Gandariel
2011-09-08, 03:04 PM
yeah, having that +6 Wis wasted was sad, so i changed race to Muckdweller, tiny size,
str -6
dex +6
wis -2
cha -2
And the charachter works more or less the same..
But.
this raging monk thing is intriguing.. i could use that and pump my Wis a bit...
improved initiative is nice and also the Wis to AC (i'm not wearing armor anyway, since my str doesn't let me wear ANYTHING...)


EDIT: where do i find Raging monk?

ericgrau
2011-09-08, 03:51 PM
With darkwood you can carry a half pound crossbow and up to 80 bolts (1 pound).

Don't forget the standard archery tricks: bolts of various metal types and later get bane bolts.

There are ways to boost your carrying capacity without boosting strength; I think it's in the MiC. Ask around. Getting even a 3 pound capacity might be nice to get 1 pound magic items.

In the meantime find magic items with negligible weight like rings, elixirs, feather tokens and so forth. Instead of bracers of armor simply carry lots of potions of mage armor. They're cheap. Though while their weight is listed as -, technically they're 1 oz. each which could add up. Hmm, aha, the mule. Now you only need to worry about carrying 1 or 2 buff round potions, neither of which is the mage armor you already chugged every hour that there might be danger. Well, at mid levels anyway when you can blow 50 gp like water; at low levels you only chug if you know danger is soon.

Vladislav
2011-09-08, 03:57 PM
There's a Lifting Belt (from A Dark and Stormy Knight), that lets your Str score to be treated as 1 higher for the purpose of carrying capacity. Don't recall the exact cost, but it's quite cheap.

Acanous
2011-09-08, 10:53 PM
Masterwork Backpack (Arms and Equiptment Guide) costs 50GP and treats your STR as 1 point higher for carrying capacity.

Gandariel
2011-09-09, 12:01 PM
Another build change! I embraced the Wis bonus and checked out what class would suit me.
i ended up with Ninja. sneaky, skillpoints, size-independent damage source(sudden strike), Wis to ac and wis abilities.

so now, my scores are
str 1
dex 23
con 11
int 11
wis 18
cha 2

first two levels of feat rogue, my feats are going to be
1st: point blank, rapid shot, hand crossbow focus, precise shot
2nd: crossbow sniper
Third level, Whirling barbarian
feat: TWF
I will purchase two mwk hand crossbows and a Hand of the mage(900gp, mage hand at will)
the Mage hand will be used to reload the hand crossbows (GM ruled it ok)

So i will fire Four bolts (normal, rapid shot, whirling frenzy, twf)
the penalties add up to -8
Bonuses are +2size, +6 dex, +2BAB, +1 point blank, +1 focus, +1 MWK
for a total of +5/+5/+5/+5
damage is pityful, 1d2+1+3(point blank and hale dex)

the fourth level gives me a +1 in dex (now 24) and a ninja level
i take Wis to AC (great) and a d6 of sudden strike
damage is now 1d2+4+1d6, average 9, and the shots are all at +6

later i will go on being a ninja, for nice ki effects...
plus, i figure taking improved and greater TWF, getting my iteratives, and consider a Splitting hand crossbow... that will be a HELLUVA bolts!
Also, ninja's poison use (which i get at cl6) will be useful, since my damage's not great and i do a lot of attacks...

Now a way to avoid Str and Cha damage...

Plus, my 4th level AC is gonna rock! (+2size, +7dex, +2dodge for rage, +4Wis, for a 25!)

PirateLizard
2011-09-09, 12:54 PM
I love the idea...I really hope those terrible str and cha scores aren't your achilles heel. :smalleek: Charisma damage isn't that common...Str damage on the other hand is a fair bit more.

Once you make a few enemies you're going to have to be very careful about what you eat, as you can apply poison safely but you aren't yet immune. You may need to watch out for this on the double, as 2 charisma from a roleplaying standpoint makes you absolutely hideous. Small children cry when they look at you. You crap on the dinner table and smell like rotten milk. We aren't sure you actually know what hygiene is...etc. If I we're your DM you'd be pretty screwed from that, everyone would want you dead just for being so nasty. :smallyuk:

Now to go cross this idea with the Half-fiend template to really make my party angry in a future session. :smallcool:

Edit...looking at the Muckdweller...they have +3 natural AC, so I -think- you're 4th level AC should be 28.

Curmudgeon
2011-09-09, 01:11 PM
Masterwork Backpack (Arms and Equiptment Guide) costs 50GP and treats your STR as 1 point higher for carrying capacity.
Really? What page is this on?

koscum
2011-09-09, 01:24 PM
With darkwood you can carry a half pound crossbow and up to 80 bolts (1 pound).

Don't forget the standard archery tricks: bolts of various metal types and later get bane bolts.

There are ways to boost your carrying capacity without boosting strength; I think it's in the MiC. Ask around. Getting even a 3 pound capacity might be nice to get 1 pound magic items.

In the meantime find magic items with negligible weight like rings, elixirs, feather tokens and so forth. Instead of bracers of armor simply carry lots of potions of mage armor. They're cheap. Though while their weight is listed as -, technically they're 1 oz. each which could add up. Hmm, aha, the mule. Now you only need to worry about carrying 1 or 2 buff round potions, neither of which is the mage armor you already chugged every hour that there might be danger. Well, at mid levels anyway when you can blow 50 gp like water; at low levels you only chug if you know danger is soon.

Easy Travel armour property, MIC pg. 10, 1500 gp: You can carry up to a medium load as if it were a light load. Also applies to maximum Dexterity bonus, check penalty and speed reduction due medium load. It doesn't say anything about class feature restrictions.

Also Gandariel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=46879), if you see any Shadows, RUN LIKE HELL!!!

Daftendirekt
2011-09-09, 01:32 PM
2 charisma from a roleplaying standpoint makes you absolutely hideous. Small children cry when they look at you. You crap on the dinner table and smell like rotten milk. We aren't sure you actually know what hygiene is...etc. If I we're your DM you'd be pretty screwed from that, everyone would want you dead just for being so nasty. :smallyuk:


You know there are loads of ways to interpret low Charisma. You could be drop dead gorgeous and have a 6 charisma. You may just be a gorgeous, murderous, uptight bitch. You could also be below average looks-wise and have a 16 charisma. There are some uggos that know just what to say to people to make them like you.

koscum
2011-09-09, 01:40 PM
You know there are loads of ways to interpret low Charisma. You could be drop dead gorgeous and have a 6 charisma. You may just be a gorgeous, murderous, uptight bitch. You could also be below average looks-wise and have a 16 charisma. There are some uggos that know just what to say to people to make them like you.

And that's why Book-which-shall-not-be-named introduced Appearance as a stat.

PirateLizard
2011-09-09, 01:48 PM
You could be drop dead gorgeous and have a 6 charisma.

Strange you didn't say 2 =P

Daftendirekt
2011-09-09, 01:50 PM
Because no well-made character ever has even one stat that low, much less two. Let's face it, this concept is ridiculous. As I already said on the first page, a tiny sized creature with 1 strength can only carry 1.5 pounds. Good luck even carrying gear, much less ever finding suitable loot.

Gandariel
2011-09-09, 03:04 PM
this is a low level campaign, the "high" point of this build is probably level Four, when i have four attacks at +6 for avg 9 damage and have an awesome AC (and an even awesomer touch AC)
i don't expect many loot problems. i just need my Hand of the mage, i will possibly enchant my crossbows.. and yeah, maybe some Bracers of Armor or Cloak of Resistance would be good...

Jade Dragon
2011-09-09, 03:28 PM
avg 9 damage

You seem to be expecting that your enemies are always flat-footed.

Gandariel
2011-09-09, 03:35 PM
you should see my Hide and Move Silently mods :P

Urpriest
2011-09-09, 03:39 PM
you should see my Hide and Move Silently mods :P

Useful stuff, but do remember the -20 penalty to Hide when attacking. If you can beat that then you've got a viable stealth build. It's nontrivial to pull off, but certainly can be done.

Gandariel
2011-09-09, 03:40 PM
interesting... can someone link me one of those handy "xxxxxx's handbook" guides about hiding?

SowZ
2011-09-09, 03:46 PM
Because no well-made character ever has even one stat that low, much less two. Let's face it, this concept is ridiculous. As I already said on the first page, a tiny sized creature with 1 strength can only carry 1.5 pounds. Good luck even carrying gear, much less ever finding suitable loot.

What? This seems a silly comment to make. 'No well made character has a stat so low' is incorrect by virtue of its extremism. But you raise a good point. Mainly, when one stat is so low you are easily exploited. A single point of STR damage will take you out of the fight. There are a number of was to deal STR damage and when all the enemy has to deal is one? Yowzas.

Lestroisrois
2011-09-09, 05:04 PM
Another build change! I embraced the Wis bonus and checked out what class would suit me.
i ended up with Ninja. sneaky, skillpoints, size-independent damage source(sudden strike), Wis to ac and wis abilities.

so now, my scores are
str 1
dex 23
con 11
int 11
wis 18
cha 2

first two levels of feat rogue, my feats are going to be
1st: point blank, rapid shot, hand crossbow focus, precise shot
2nd: crossbow sniper
Third level, Whirling barbarian
feat: TWF
I will purchase two mwk hand crossbows and a Hand of the mage(900gp, mage hand at will)
the Mage hand will be used to reload the hand crossbows (GM ruled it ok)

So i will fire Four bolts (normal, rapid shot, whirling frenzy, twf)
the penalties add up to -8
Bonuses are +2size, +6 dex, +2BAB, +1 point blank, +1 focus, +1 MWK
for a total of +5/+5/+5/+5
damage is pityful, 1d2+1+3(point blank and hale dex)

the fourth level gives me a +1 in dex (now 24) and a ninja level
i take Wis to AC (great) and a d6 of sudden strike
damage is now 1d2+4+1d6, average 9, and the shots are all at +6

later i will go on being a ninja, for nice ki effects...
plus, i figure taking improved and greater TWF, getting my iteratives, and consider a Splitting hand crossbow... that will be a HELLUVA bolts!
Also, ninja's poison use (which i get at cl6) will be useful, since my damage's not great and i do a lot of attacks...

Now a way to avoid Str and Cha damage...

Plus, my 4th level AC is gonna rock! (+2size, +7dex, +2dodge for rage, +4Wis, for a 25!)

Which Ninja class are you using?
Also, you can make your opponent ALWAYS flat footed by taking the feat Confound the big-folk. with you being tiny and all, you'd be an anti-optimizationist not to.

Also, just realized that I didn't say where the things are in my last post.
Here's the list:
Quichrazor: Races of Stone, pg 154
Confound the big-folk: Races of the Wild, pg 153
Weapon Finesse: you know where it is...:smallbiggrin:

Acanous
2011-09-09, 05:29 PM
Raistlin had a 3 in Con.
A tiny creature only being able to lift 10 pounds makes sense to me. 10 pounds propably weighs about as much as he does, if he's a foot tall.

ericgrau
2011-09-09, 06:17 PM
Outside of stories no such character would live long either. Normally con is a wizard's 2nd stat.

Acanous
2011-09-09, 06:53 PM
still, my post was to counter the stormwind fallacy with an example.
Min/Maxed characters can be good characters. Your stats are your toolbox, how you use them is up to you.

Curmudgeon
2011-09-09, 09:22 PM
Also, you can make your opponent ALWAYS flat footed by taking the feat Confound the big-folk.
This hardly ever works, actually. Confound the Big Folk requires moving into the enemy's square, provoking an AoO. You only make them flat-footed for your attacks on the next round. If they move away you're out of luck.

Fizban
2011-09-09, 11:34 PM
Except the prerequisite feat Underfoot Combat removes the AoO for moving into their space when they're two sizes larger than you. That's kinda the whole point of the two feats. Also, Confound the Big Folk doesn't technically say you still have to be in their space: as long as you moved into their space last round, they're flat footed against all of your attacks this round. If they moved away you can just use a ranged weapon.

Acanous
2011-09-10, 12:30 AM
that's still 2 more feats. Usefull, though. Maybe I'll toss an Otugyh hole in the setting somewhere.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-09-10, 01:08 AM
Another way to embrace your wisdom score is psychic warrior. While it probably wouldn't come up much, compression can make you diminutive and later on fine. For added humor, expansion could make you all the way up to a regular person.

I actually have no idea how it works for archers but I know it can do a great job of being sneaky.

cfalcon
2011-09-10, 02:16 AM
Your clothing? :smallcool:

Worn clothing weighs nothing in 3.5- or rather, it does not count towards your encumbrance.

Runestar
2011-09-10, 10:14 AM
I can't imagine how someone with 1 str would even begin to reload the crossbow. :smalltongue:

SowZ
2011-09-10, 11:30 AM
I can't imagine how someone with 1 str would even begin to reload the crossbow. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I would say it has to be a repeating crossbow. Even then, cocking the lever would be tough.

MesiDoomstalker
2011-09-10, 12:39 PM
Another way to embrace your wisdom score is psychic warrior. While it probably wouldn't come up much, compression can make you diminutive and later on fine. For added humor, expansion could make you all the way up to a regular person.

I actually have no idea how it works for archers but I know it can do a great job of being sneaky.

Problem with that as you go down in size, the die size of your weapons go down as well. As a tiny creature, its already a d2, the next step is just 1 damage. Beyond that, it literally does no damage period. Its iffy if sneak attack could still be applied or not if your weapon does no damage for being too small.

Jade Dragon
2011-09-10, 12:44 PM
Problem with that as you go down in size, the die size of your weapons go down as well. As a tiny creature, its already a d2, the next step is just 1 damage. Beyond that, it literally does no damage period. Its iffy if sneak attack could still be applied or not if your weapon does no damage for being too small.

Minimum damage is one. It doesn't matter how small you are.

Daftendirekt
2011-09-10, 12:51 PM
Minimum damage is one. It doesn't matter how small you are.

Which means a dozen bees could kill a 1st level character.

ericgrau
2011-09-10, 01:03 PM
It's balanced because as you get to higher level characters you begin to approach 1000 bees which only does 1d6 swarm damage :smalltongue: (j/k).

Jade Dragon
2011-09-10, 01:06 PM
Which means a dozen bees could kill a 1st level character.

Nah, tons of tiny creatures are a swarm, which deals 1d6 damage every round they're in the same square as their target, and they probably also get a poison secondary effect. Cats can kill commoners, though.

Of course, the swarm damage can still bring down a commoner in a single round 50% of the time.

Flickerdart
2011-09-10, 01:14 PM
Which means a dozen bees could kill a 1st level character.
A single bee wouldn't have an attack at all - such as what you see on small animals like toads.

PirateLizard
2011-09-10, 01:37 PM
Which means a dozen bees could kill a 1st level character.

Only takes one bee to cause Anaphylactic shock.

Honestly I'm curious if you didn't do that allowable reroll thing from rolling such terrible stats. I really do love the idea...I just recommend 5 str so some ray doing 1d4 doesn't end you in one round...and you can like, wear items and armor and have potions and stuff.

Jade Dragon
2011-09-10, 01:39 PM
A single bee wouldn't have an attack at all - such as what you see on small animals like toads.

Bees have stingers. Toads don't have natural weapons.

NNescio
2011-09-10, 01:44 PM
Only takes one bee to cause Anaphylactic shock.

Honestly I'm curious if you didn't do that allowable reroll thing from rolling such terrible stats. I really do love the idea...I just recommend 5 str so some ray doing 1d4 doesn't end you in one round.

Last time I checked, 3.5e characters don't have allergies. Unless they took certain questionable homebrewed flaws from dndwiki, that is.

Flickerdart
2011-09-10, 01:59 PM
Last time I checked, 3.5e characters don't have allergies. Unless they took certain questionable homebrewed flaws from dndwiki, that is.
Dragin #324: Metal Intolerance Flaw makes you allergic to metal. Apparently, the drawback of an allergy is that you take an extra point of damage. So it makes sense that if you were allergic to bees, a bee sting would deal 1 damage instead of nothing - but weapons made of bees and creatures composed primarily of bees are sadly much less common than those of metal.

flabort
2011-09-10, 02:17 PM
Dragin #324: Metal Intolerance Flaw makes you allergic to metal. Apparently, the drawback of an allergy is that you take an extra point of damage. So it makes sense that if you were allergic to bees, a bee sting would deal 1 damage instead of nothing - but weapons made of bees and creatures composed primarily of bees are sadly much less common than those of metal.

Warning: You have evoked the demon of TVtropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeeBeeGun)!

PirateLizard
2011-09-10, 02:21 PM
Dragin #324: Metal Intolerance Flaw makes you allergic to metal. Apparently, the drawback of an allergy is that you take an extra point of damage. So it makes sense that if you were allergic to bees, a bee sting would deal 1 damage instead of nothing - but weapons made of bees and creatures composed primarily of bees are sadly much less common than those of metal.

Funny this should come up...just snagged a copy of Goblins of Golarion today after seeing it being discussed on this board. I'm running a campaign where one of the BBEGs has an army of mutating goblins...anyway.

In the supplement they actually have a part about how Goblins use beehives as a thrown weapons. Gonna bee a lot more bees on my table...mutated, hellion bees. Oh man...they are so boned when we play later. Why...are we talking about bees again? Oh well.

<Shuffles off to work on a Mutant Bee Swarm and leaves the thread to get back ontopic on its own>

MesiDoomstalker
2011-09-10, 06:05 PM
Minimum damage is one. It doesn't matter how small you are.

Lets check SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

Scroll down a bit and you'll see a table giving creature sizes and sample weapons of varying die size. A hand crossbow does d4 for a medium creature, same as a dagger listed in that table. Now look down to "Fine" and you'll see it doesn't even list damage for a Fine-sized dagger. Thats because it doesn't deal damage.

Gandariel
2011-09-10, 07:59 PM
For those of you who care, we just played a session. had some fun killin' goblins. (we're level one)

First thing i noticed, i didn't even pack a dagger for my encumbrance issues (turns out i COULD carry one, it weighs 0.25 lbs).
but that' not too bad.. i couldn't even hit anything in melee, the AOOs i'd have provoked would have missed anyway.
I got Bullrushed out of a window. ouch.
i shot some enemies, but at level one my damage is pityful (1d2+1, twice)
i did manage to kill a couple of them.
I got grappled (didn't even have to roll, my grapple modifier is -13)
but i escaped (escape artist roll, +10 mod)...
Positive thing, my 18 AC (i'm not even using armor) saved my little ugly butt from some extra holes...

Well, i guess i have to do SOMETHING to avoid getting caught in melee... the obvious thing would be getting Weapon Finesse for my dagger... but i don't know if it's worth it.. my dagger does 1d2 damage, and i have Str 1.. one point of damage isn't really worth a feat...

we're probably leveling up next session, i'll pick the second level of Feat rogue and get Crossbow Sniper (basically +3 damage on my shots)
very, very good ^^.

I was actually thinking i could just drop the barbarian dip... the extra attack it gives me works only on a rage, 1/day... entering Ninja earlier would give me a lot of goodies...


P.S. Other Wis-dependant classes i should consider? no clerics or druids, please. i don't want full casters. possibly not magical at all, but everything's fine

Qwertystop
2011-09-10, 08:33 PM
Swordsage gets Wis to AC fairly early when wearing light armor, and you might be able to get it with no armor as well if your DM is reasonable. Many maneuvers could also help negate your STR penalty or protect you. For example, Diamond Mind has a low-level strike that allows you to replace a normal attack with a touch attack that does damage equal to a Concentration check.

PirateLizard
2011-09-11, 01:28 PM
It might take a while, but if you could get some boots of flying or find some other way to fly at some point, it should (might) clean up a lot of your melee issues. Especially with sneak attack out to 60 feet, you can literally get over your opponents.

Tetsubo 57
2011-09-11, 04:28 PM
I have to say, I wouldn't allow a Str 1 person to load a crossbow. Not one that would do damage. Maybe a Nerf gun...

Jade Dragon
2011-09-11, 04:31 PM
I have to say, I wouldn't allow a Str 1 person to load a crossbow. Not one that would do damage. Maybe a Nerf gun...

Modified to shoot lightning! Wait, that's a wand.

Realism was thrown out the window when the designers decided adding heavy horn and sinew to a longbow makes it shoot better. That only works on shortbows.

Spiryt
2011-09-11, 04:33 PM
I have to say, I wouldn't allow a Str 1 person to load a crossbow. Not one that would do damage. Maybe a Nerf gun...

Depends how much mechanical advantage person has and how much time wants to spend, really.

Qwertystop
2011-09-11, 04:35 PM
I have to say, I wouldn't allow a Str 1 person to load a crossbow. Not one that would do damage. Maybe a Nerf gun...

Don't forget, the crossbow in question is for someone about half the size of a toddler (yes, really! Halflings are about the size of human toddlers, and this is 1 category smaller!)(maybe the size of a cabbage). It wouldn't take much Strength to load that. Personally, I'd say anyone larger than Tiny, or with a STR of 14 or more, would need a high DEX score to not break it.

NNescio
2011-09-11, 04:38 PM
I have to say, I wouldn't allow a Str 1 person to load a crossbow. Not one that would do damage. Maybe a Nerf gun...

Seeing as how I can modify my Nerf Maverick to put holes into plywood without any appreciable increase in its draw weight...

(Of course, I'm not using conventional Nerf darts, but actual bolts would be far more damaging than the stuff I use.)

Spiryt
2011-09-11, 04:38 PM
Don't forget, the crossbow in question is for someone about half the size of a toddler (yes, really! Halflings are about the size of human toddlers, and this is 1 category smaller!)(maybe the size of a cabbage). It wouldn't take much Strength to load that. Personally, I'd say anyone larger than Tiny, or with a STR of 14 or more, would need a high DEX score to not break it.

Well, and then we go to "no damage" part, I guess. :smallwink:

Fortunately, everything in 3.5 does at least one?


Realism was thrown out the window when the designers decided adding heavy horn and sinew to a longbow makes it shoot better. That only works on shortbows.

There's absolutely no reason for composite "longbow" not to work....

Jade Dragon
2011-09-11, 04:43 PM
There's absolutely no reason for composite "longbow" not to work....

Alright, state how such an obvious bow design which anyone who knows what a composite bow is could think could be missed by lots of different people who have worked for years on the subject. The closest thing I can think of are Turkish warbows, and those were trading efficiency for raw power. It's not any better than a regular longbow, perhaps worse due to the fact that "longbows" are actually flatbows and CWar's "greatbows" are English longbows.

Spiryt
2011-09-11, 04:59 PM
Alright, state how such an obvious bow design which anyone who knows what a composite bow is could think could be missed by lots of different people who have worked for years on the subject. The closest thing I can think of are Turkish warbows, and those were trading efficiency for raw power.

~ 180 cm is quite long (http://atarn.org/chinese/visible_bow/visible.htm) if that's what you mean.

For example I can search now.

Whole thing is that designers where completely clueless, and decided that strength needed to pull the bow is dependent on if it is a composite, or not... :smalltongue:

Don't really get the last sentence to be honest.

Anyway, composite sinew and horn longbows can absolutely work too.

With such material, shorter lenght was obviously preferred, as it makes more efficient bow, if material can handle the stresses, but they could obviously apparently find few reason to make larger ones too.

For stability and stuff, instead of raw "power" indeed, like you stated.

flabort
2011-09-11, 07:09 PM
Personally, I see no reason why you couldn't put pulleys and springs on a "Longbow" to give it more shooting distance....
Oh, wait. You're saying this was before people had plastic and such fine tools to put pulleys and springs on even a short bow? "Composite" bows were made by reinforcing the wood? [/sarcasm]
Ok, the designers didn't do their research. So we get fun "Extra big, useless bows that can't exist deal extra damage" things.

NNescio
2011-09-11, 07:12 PM
Personally, I see no reason why you couldn't put pulleys and springs on a "Longbow" to give it more shooting distance....
Oh, wait. You're saying this was before people had plastic and such fine tools to put pulleys and springs on even a short bow? "Composite" bows were made by reinforcing the wood? [/sarcasm]
Ok, the designers didn't do their research. So we get fun "Extra big, useless bows that can't exist deal extra damage" things.

Er... Composite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow) and Compound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_bow) refer to different things. Unless you are a fan of early 20th century literature, that is.

flabort
2011-09-11, 07:52 PM
Er... Composite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow) and Compound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_bow) refer to different things. Unless you are a fan of early 20th century literature, that is.

*epic facepalm*

The Random NPC
2011-09-11, 11:15 PM
Well, i guess i have to do SOMETHING to avoid getting caught in melee... the obvious thing would be getting Weapon Finesse for my dagger... but i don't know if it's worth it.. my dagger does 1d2 damage, and i have Str 1.. one point of damage isn't really worth a feat...


You may want to look into the Weapon of Last Resort enchantment. I believe it is in Complete Adventure, and it is a +1 ability that adds 1d6 to damage for every size catagory bigger your target is than you.

Gandariel
2011-09-12, 02:16 PM
You may want to look into the Weapon of Last Resort enchantment. I believe it is in Complete Adventure, and it is a +1 ability that adds 1d6 to damage for every size catagory bigger your target is then you.

whoa, looks strong!! i'll look it up, but i probably won't use it for a while, we're still poor and weak ^^

ericgrau
2011-09-12, 04:37 PM
IIRC the English longbow relies on the right type of wood to effectively be composite without requiring the usual composite methods of construction. Deforestation of this particular tree was becoming an issue, and all incoming foreign merchant ships were required by law to bring in some of that wood.

Jade Dragon
2011-09-12, 05:08 PM
IIRC the English longbow relies on the right type of wood to effectively be composite without requiring the usual composite methods of construction. Deforestation of this particular tree was becoming an issue, and all incoming foreign merchant ships were required by law to bring in some of that wood.

Longbows in D&D aren't English longbows.

Boci
2011-09-12, 05:12 PM
You may want to look into the Weapon of Last Resort enchantment. I believe it is in Complete Adventure, and it is a +1 ability that adds 1d6 to damage for every size catagory bigger your target is then you.

Yes but only when the wielder is grappled.

ericgrau
2011-09-12, 05:16 PM
Longbows in D&D aren't English longbows.
Wasn't my complaint. Someone claimed longbows weren't composite.

Lestroisrois
2011-09-12, 05:21 PM
Yes but only when the wielder is grappled.

He's Tiny and has a -15 to grapple checks. It'll happen plenty enough. I'd suggest it on quickrazors, because you can use them in a grapple and even if when your grappled and have your crossbows in hand, you can drop them and attack with quickrazors in the same round.

Acanous
2011-09-12, 05:24 PM
Gotta say, I never thought I'd see the day when a factory CR 1/3 goblin wanted to bull rush and grapple a PC.

Much less do both successfully.

Boci
2011-09-12, 05:25 PM
He's Tiny and has a -15 to grapple checks. It'll happen plenty enough.

Depends on the rest of the party. If any melee characters are near, monsters are unlikely to compromise their defenses by grappling.

The Random NPC
2011-09-12, 11:32 PM
Yes but only when the wielder is grappled.

That isn't going to help then, if you are more than 2 size catagories smaller than your opponent, you automatically fail grapple checks. Except the initial one to get away (or possibly all checks to get away.)

Flickerdart
2011-09-13, 01:45 AM
Clearly he needs to take Leadership for some kind of enormous monster, which carries him around in its teeth while he blasts everything for +lotsd6 to damage. Illithid's Improved Grab lets it latch on to Large creatures, so we staple that capability on the guy somehow, have him grapple partially so that he has his hands free, and now he's blasting away like a champ.

Impractical, you say? Too much work for a few d6es of damage? Downright insane? Well, I suppose. But it's stylin'.

Gandariel
2011-09-13, 04:55 AM
i don't think i would get the d6s that way..
after level three i plan on being a ninja, so i will be able to turn invisible and get some more sneak attacks Sudden Strikes.

what i am looking for is, some good feats for little guys.

Stuff like Underfoot combat/Confund the big folk. (though they require 10 ranks, so level 7 at least)
And i'm not that sure about how would i use them, since i'm a ranged fighter..
Underfoot combat would be rather useless, since i still can't do anything while in the same space of an enemy (and he can grapple me, augh)
With confund the big folk, that's good stuff! i can TRIP people much easily (opposed Dex check to trip? opponent can't trip you back? yay!)
AND i can sneak attack people. Very, very nice.
it'll take YEARS to get those feats, though. minumum level 7 means i can get them with feat slots lvl 9 and 12...


Other feats i could use?
something to improve attacks, make sneak attacks easier, taking advantage of being tiny?

Also, is there some way to negate ability damage/drain?

Darrin
2011-09-13, 07:04 AM
i don't think i would get the d6s that way..
after level three i plan on being a ninja, so i will be able to turn invisible and get some more sneak attacks Sudden Strikes.


Invisible Fist ACF in Exemplars of Evil might be worth a look, although it requires taking 2 levels of monk. Turn invisible for 1 round as an immediate action. You have to wait 3 rounds before you can use it again, but unlike the Ninja, no daily limit on uses.



Stuff like Underfoot combat/Confund the big folk. (though they require 10 ranks, so level 7 at least)


Ugh, I'd like to slap the designer who decided those feats needed 10 ranks of Tumble as a prereq. If your DM allows retraining or psychic reformation, you can take Favored and Primary Contact from Cityscape to qualify for Underfoot Combat at ECL 6 and then take Confound the Big Folk at ECL 9. Then retrain Favored/Primary Contact to something more useful. Otherwise you have to wait until ECL 12 to get that combo going.

Google "I May Be Tiny, But You're Dead: The Other Killer Gnome" for some ideas on how to use Confound the Big Folk.



And i'm not that sure about how would i use them, since i'm a ranged fighter..
Underfoot combat would be rather useless, since i still can't do anything while in the same space of an enemy (and he can grapple me, augh)
With confund the big folk, that's good stuff! i can TRIP people much easily (opposed Dex check to trip? opponent can't trip you back? yay!)
AND i can sneak attack people. Very, very nice.


If you're using an exotic ranged weapon and dip into Exotic Weapon Master for Close-Quarters Ranged Combat, you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon without provoking any AoOs.



Other feats i could use?
something to improve attacks, make sneak attacks easier, taking advantage of being tiny?


You'll want some method to deal sneak attack damage to creatures that are normally immune to it. The Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) is very nice, but only works when you can flank (elementals and some other creatures can't be flanked). Death's Ruin (Complete Champion) is also great vs. undead, but doesn't work against any other creature types.



Also, is there some way to negate ability damage/drain?

Yes. Dip into Binder, Naberius vestige, or Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest are the two most common methods (although there may be arguments about Strongheart Vest, depending on what you're trying to do... check with your DM on that one).

MesiDoomstalker
2011-09-13, 08:36 AM
You'll want some method to deal sneak attack damage to creatures that are normally immune to it. The Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) is very nice, but only works when you can flank (elementals and some other creatures can't be flanked). Death's Ruin (Complete Champion) is also great vs. undead, but doesn't work against any other creature types.

:smallconfused: Wait what? Since when can they not be flanked? I don't see anything about that in their entries. Oozes can't be flanked because they universally have blindsight. But elementals don't have anything that would prevent flanking. And since when are the immune to sneak attacks? Through multiple campaigns and DM's the rogue has been able to sneak attack them in my experience.

Boci
2011-09-13, 09:11 AM
:smallconfused: Wait what? Since when can they not be flanked? I don't see anything about that in their entries. Oozes can't be flanked because they universally have blindsight. But elementals don't have anything that would prevent flanking. And since when are the immune to sneak attacks? Through multiple campaigns and DM's the rogue has been able to sneak attack them in my experience.

From the SRD on traits of the elemental type: —Not subject to critical hits or flanking.


That isn't going to help then, if you are more than 2 size catagories smaller than your opponent, you automatically fail grapple checks. Except the initial one to get away (or possibly all checks to get away.)

Where does it say that?

Darrin
2011-09-13, 09:25 AM
:smallconfused: Wait what? Since when can they not be flanked?


It's one of the trains of the Elemental type:



Traits: An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Darkvision out to 60 feet.

* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.

* Not subject to critical hits or flanking.


Elementals are a bit odd... although they do not have discernable sense organs and somewhat amorphous physiologies (which I presume is where their immunity to crits/flanking comes from), they can still be blinded.



Oozes can't be flanked because they universally have blindsight.


Technically, the blindsight isn't part of their type, and the immunity to crits/flanking is a separate trait from whatever vision they might have.



And since when are the immune to sneak attacks? Through multiple campaigns and DM's the rogue has been able to sneak attack them in my experience.

There are five creature types that are immune to crits (i.e., precision damage): constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead. (Also, swarms, but that's a subtype, not a type.) Per the description of the Rogue's Sneak Attack ability, "Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks." Your DM may have a house rule, or just might not have noticed. It's not entirely obvious what the elemental or ooze traits are from their stat blocks, since you have to look them up in a completely different section of the MM.

Of those five types, two of them are also immune to flanking: elementals and oozes. Thus, the Penetrating Strike ACF won't work on them. I don't think there's any RAW way to circumvent this, although you can ask your DM for some wiggle-room if you can cancel whatever is giving your target all-around vision.

One of the nifty features of Swift Hunter is that it also allows skirmish damage against favored enemies that would normally be immune to it. Of the five types, undead and constructs are the most commonly encountered, and are the best picks for your first two favored enemies. After that, elementals are probably the most dangerous. Plants tend to be immobile, extremely flammable, and a wand of vine strike (1st level ranger spell) only costs 750 GP. While there is no equivalent ooze strike spell, oozes tend to only be dangerous if they surprise you, and if you spot them first, they are usually slow enough you can move around them or just walk away.

koscum
2011-09-13, 10:05 AM
:smallconfused: Wait what? Since when can they not be flanked? I don't see anything about that in their entries. Oozes can't be flanked because they universally have blindsight. But elementals don't have anything that would prevent flanking. And since when are the immune to sneak attacks? Through multiple campaigns and DM's the rogue has been able to sneak attack them in my experience.

Elemental Type -> Traits: Not subject to critical hits or flanking. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) They have spherical Darkvision as well.

The Random NPC
2011-09-13, 10:06 AM
From the SRD on traits of the elemental type: —Not subject to critical hits or flanking.



Where does it say that?

Somewhere in the PHB in the grapple section, I don't have access to my books or the SRD where I am, but there is a line about it just after the touch attack step, I believe.
EDIT: Seems I misremembered, you can't start a grapple if you are 2 or more size catagories smaller than the target.

MesiDoomstalker
2011-09-13, 11:04 AM
Collective my bad. I think my group did houserule out Elemental's immunity to SA and flanking. Again, my bad. :smallredface:

Gandariel
2011-09-13, 12:11 PM
Invisible Fist ACF in Exemplars of Evil might be worth a look, although it requires taking 2 levels of monk. Turn invisible for 1 round as an immediate action. You have to wait 3 rounds before you can use it again, but unlike the Ninja, no daily limit on uses.

Hm, i don't know.. i don't think i'll need to use it so many times that my Ki pool will be such a problem.. i'd rather avoid taking two monk levels (especially becuase it explicitly doesn't stack with Ninja wis to ac)

Ugh, I'd like to slap the designer who decided those feats needed 10 ranks of Tumble as a prereq. If your DM allows retraining or psychic reformation, you can take Favored and Primary Contact from Cityscape to qualify for Underfoot Combat at ECL 6 and then take Confound the Big Folk at ECL 9. Then retrain Favored/Primary Contact to something more useful. Otherwise you have to wait until ECL 12 to get that combo going.

Maybe.. that would work if i feel i don't need any feats from level four to eleven i'll ask my DM (actually, since he already saw and posted in this thread, he may answer himself =)

Google "I May Be Tiny, But You're Dead: The Other Killer Gnome" for some ideas on how to use Confound the Big Folk.

not actually what i'm looking for (this guy's melee)

If you're using an exotic ranged weapon and dip into Exotic Weapon Master for Close-Quarters Ranged Combat, you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon without provoking any AoOs.

Yeah, that is surely worth a dip. after i get BAB +6, of course

You'll want some method to deal sneak attack damage to creatures that are normally immune to it. The Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) is very nice, but only works when you can flank (elementals and some other creatures can't be flanked). Death's Ruin (Complete Champion) is also great vs. undead, but doesn't work against any other creature types.

Penetrating strike looks great!
i guess i can take the third level of rogue somewhere to get this, or get it by losing the Ninja's trap sense.. Acanous, you tell me :P

Yes. Dip into Binder, Naberius vestige, or Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest are the two most common methods (although there may be arguments about Strongheart Vest, depending on what you're trying to do... check with your DM on that one).

i don't know about them, i'll look them up

Thanks for the answer, it was very helpful!
And, if anyone else has something to add, please do =)