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Dire Reverend
2011-09-08, 02:44 PM
So I am one of the workers on Bleach D20. Bleach D20 presents rules for people who wish to roleplay bleach with a structured ruleset using the well-known revised third edition ruleset. This was originally made by Behold_the_Void (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=9) but was adopted by other people.

Bleach D20 Link (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Bleach_D20_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29)

Besides me, other active contributors are AShadowofLife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=49423), The-Mage-King (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=47888) and Nerameshu (he/she has yet to create an account).

This is a really boring post for such an amazing ruleset, so just please check it out.

This thread can be used for general discussion of Bleach D20, suggestions/comments/insults to my mother.

Major
2011-09-08, 04:42 PM
So I am one of the workers on Bleach D20. Bleach D20 presents rules for people who wish to roleplay bleach with a structured ruleset using the well-known revised third edition ruleset. This was originally made by Behold_the_Void (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=9) but was adopted by other people.

Bleach D20 Link (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Bleach_D20_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29)

Besides me, other active contributors are AShadowofLife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=49423), The-Mage-King (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=47888) and Nerameshu (he/she has yet to create an account).

This is a really boring post for such an amazing ruleset, so just please check it out.

This thread can be used for general discussion of Bleach D20, suggestions/comments/insults to my mother.

Question: Does Beyond the Void still do work at all?

Statement: I love this system :D

Dire Reverend
2011-09-08, 05:40 PM
I have not seen him do anything with the Bleach D20 project in the last, ever. I found this project after he stopped working on it.

ALSO: If for some reason I missed crediting someone, please let me know. I would not want to take other people's credit away from them.

Major
2011-09-08, 05:48 PM
I have not seen him do anything with the Bleach D20 project in the last, ever. I found this project after he stopped working on it.

ALSO: If for some reason I missed crediting someone, please let me know. I would not want to take other people's credit away from them.

How much exactly had Beyond the Void done before he stopped working on it and the rest of you picked it up?

What exactly have you guys created or made extensive changes to?

((I feel like an interviewer :D ))

Dire Reverend
2011-09-08, 06:11 PM
Not entirely sure, the PDF that we all use is what I started with. We all have been slowly adding things to make it better.

Major
2011-09-08, 06:28 PM
Not entirely sure, the PDF that we all use is what I started with. We all have been slowly adding things to make it better.

So the Pdf is where BtV left off and the website is where you and the others picked up?

Did you do any work on the pdf?

The-Mage-King
2011-09-09, 01:07 AM
Hm... I would have suggested making the thread title "The Return!", instead, but whatever. Anyway, I'm going to start going through Shikai abilities to consolidate the. Got any preferences on which ones stay and which go?

mrcarter11
2011-09-09, 01:18 AM
Do you mean types or abilities of each type?

The-Mage-King
2011-09-09, 01:22 AM
Abilties in each type- there are some duplicate abilities floating around, which should be trimmed, as well as redundant stuff.


For instance, the clause about taking Mirage more than once should go, and have the senses be added in the later Mirage abilities OR have those later abilities removed, or at least reduced in number.

Morph Bark
2011-09-09, 01:24 AM
Wasn't this on a Wiki somewhere already? Or was it simply up on that Wiki for a while already, just not fully yet, and you've only posted this here when it was fully up on that Wiki?

mrcarter11
2011-09-09, 01:25 AM
I see.. Well I've used the system a few times, but only partially so I can't say much. I can say that my personal favorite type is Blood. I'd nitpick that the elemental stuff is very similar to each other, but I doubt you can do much there.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-09, 01:28 AM
It... Is being added in slow bits.

Honestly, I just recently (as in, MONDAY) signed up with the project to help out, and suggested we get a forum thread to discuss on and seek further commentary on the cropped/reworded/'brewed stuff that'll be leaving/going to the wiki.

See link in OP for the wiki it's on, and what's there.

Dire Reverend
2011-09-09, 03:38 AM
Hm... I would have suggested making the thread title "The Return!", instead, but whatever. Anyway, I'm going to start going through Shikai abilities to consolidate the. Got any preferences on which ones stay and which go?
I am terrible with thread names. I mean really, Bleach: the Game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213962) is a terrible thread title.

Wasn't this on a Wiki somewhere already? Or was it simply up on that Wiki for a while already, just not fully yet, and you've only posted this here when it was fully up on that Wiki?
This link is the wiki that it is being hosted on. The Mage King is planning on fixing the PDF to be less crappy.

Major
2011-09-09, 03:43 AM
For instance, the clause about taking Mirage more than once should go, and have the senses be added in the later Mirage abilities OR have those later abilities removed, or at least reduced in number.



Actually both water abilities are useful. I played a water specialist.

While the bonus abilities give more senses in general, only the regular mirage lets you get tactile sense. Plus the intent is that if you take mirage and get a sense you can get it earlier, but you get less and not as many benefits.

Plus mirage has a LOT of things it can add to, range, DC, senses, etc.

-----------

On a side note it was mentioned in the other thread and suggested to be moved here.

Hollow Within feat. Look at that save and tell me how it makes sense. Level+charisma bonus? first it is so low you will always make it no matter what level. second, why are you punished for having a higher stat?

Normally higher stats HELP your saves, not hurt them. So it doesn't make sense and the save DC is too low, imo.

Edit:

As mentioned in the other thread, barring natural ones a character with a good will progression rate.

Level 1? Auto-make it.
Level 10? +7 minimum (zero wisdom) to a DC 10. You'll make it
Level 15? +9 minimum but WBL will let you get magic items that boost it making a DC 15 stupid easy.
Level 20: DC 20. You have a minimum +12, plus magic items. If you can't make a DC 20 by level 20 you aren't TRYING. Especially when it only activates when you get dropped.

Dire Reverend
2011-09-09, 04:19 AM
You are not considering the fact that the Shinigami could have taken fortitude as a bad save, making the minimum at level 20 +6, not +12.

It is quite possible that the original creator of Hollow Within meant it to be a Fort save, but you use your Charisma Modifier instead of your Wisdom to determine your bonus.

I think what happened is that the original creator of the PDF, with his lack of english skills, wrote it incorrectly.

But anyways, I like the idea that the save increases with level, because Hollow Ichigo took over more often when Ichigo became stronger. How about instead of character level+cha (or whatever the creator of the PDF meant) it would be Character level times two. However, this might be too much, and if it is it could be lowered to 1.5

Major
2011-09-09, 04:41 AM
You are not considering the fact that the Shinigami could have taken fortitude as a bad save, making the minimum at level 20 +6, not +12.

It is quite possible that the original creator of Hollow Within meant it to be a Fort save, but you use your Charisma Modifier instead of your Wisdom to determine your bonus.

I think what happened is that the original creator of the PDF, with his lack of english skills, wrote it incorrectly.

But anyways, I like the idea that the save increases with level, because Hollow Ichigo took over more often when Ichigo became stronger. How about instead of character level+cha (or whatever the creator of the PDF meant) it would be Character level times two. However, this might be too much, and if it is it could be lowered to 1.5

Well most saves like this work off of a simple 10+1/2 character level.

Making a DC 10 start isn't bad.

At level 1 it is DC 10. Level 10 its a DC 15. Level 20 a DC 30. It rises without punishing you for stats, is always a risk, and at the same time makes it tricky unless you are TRYING to bump your save.

If you REALLY want to use charisma (not sure why) just say a will save with your charisma modifier in place of wisdom. Otherwise just the will save works.

Dire Reverend
2011-09-09, 04:48 AM
The reasoning behind charisma is that it is your spellcasting/reiatsu stat. But the 10+1/2 character level is great.

Major
2011-09-09, 06:29 AM
The reasoning behind charisma is that it is your spellcasting/reiatsu stat. But the 10+1/2 character level is great.

Alright so then a will save using your charisma modifier at DC 10+1/2 character level.

Turalisj
2011-09-09, 06:37 AM
I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

Give the quincy something nice. No one is ever going to play one with how it is now; a bow using shinigami is much more powerful and fun.

Shadow Lord
2011-09-09, 06:54 AM
Mind if I go and Grammar Nazi this thing?

Turalisj
2011-09-09, 07:04 AM
I think TMK is already on that.

Major
2011-09-09, 03:52 PM
Another interesting question.

Plushies. They are done REALLY weird. Being a race makes it rather strange.

On one hand, entering and leaving a plushie makes sense, but at the same time it is your race. What happens to your racial stats when outside of plushie form?

Wouldn't making it a template or something work better?

The-Mage-King
2011-09-09, 07:49 PM
Actually both water abilities are useful. I played a water specialist.

While the bonus abilities give more senses in general, only the regular mirage lets you get tactile sense. Plus the intent is that if you take mirage and get a sense you can get it earlier, but you get less and not as many benefits.

Plus mirage has a LOT of things it can add to, range, DC, senses, etc.


Hence the part about adding it to another ability... Maybe Superior Mirage? The we can reduce system bloat by cutting the addition of other senses from Mirage, leaving it with only the range and number of illusion increases...


Also, two abilities that allow illusions to deal damage. One needs to be cropped.

Major
2011-09-10, 01:33 AM
Hence the part about adding it to another ability... Maybe Superior Mirage? The we can reduce system bloat by cutting the addition of other senses from Mirage, leaving it with only the range and number of illusion increases...


Also, two abilities that allow illusions to deal damage. One needs to be cropped.

I do agree with water having two of the exact same abilities. However, mirage does have the advantage of "I want X sense early. I can take all the abilities that slowly build up to it or I can take it now, but not get any other benefits."

It's a trade off. One of the things about the water school is that it is so skill intensive. You want to be good at illusions you basically have to specialize. All the choices help. I agree that the following need to go, but I disagree that Mirage needs to change.

Deadly Mirage or Blurred Reality
Blending Waves or Blending Waves (same ability twice)


Anyways, that's just my opinion as having played a water specialist before.

...actually I miss my water character... I want to play another one but he didn't fit my Vizard character :(

Nerameshu
2011-09-10, 10:15 PM
Dire Reverend: I (He-Me) am here.

Major: Not to nit-pick, but wouldn't a 10+1/2 character level save be DC 20 at twentieth level?

Turalisj: I'm actually rather impressed with the Quincy class in this thing. I've seen a few systems that really crapped up the Quincy, but the abilities in this rules-set is nice. Still, I'm certain it wouldn't hurt for us to revise it a bit. Not to sound disrespectful, but how about some constructive advice on what you think would improve the Quincy class.

Shadow Lord: TMK is indeed on that.

All that aside, should Dire Reverend and TMK not mind, I would really like to see everyone's critique's on the different classes, starting with the Quincy, since it has been an issue before. I'm looking only for constructive things here; I don't want to hear that it sucks. So, helpful information, I'll look at. Anything that sounds condescending, refused.

Major
2011-09-10, 10:42 PM
Dire Reverend: I (He-Me) am here.

Major: Not to nit-pick, but wouldn't a 10+1/2 character level save be DC 20 at twentieth level?

Turalisj: I'm actually rather impressed with the Quincy class in this thing. I've seen a few systems that really crapped up the Quincy, but the abilities in this rules-set is nice. Still, I'm certain it wouldn't hurt for us to revise it a bit. Not to sound disrespectful, but how about some constructive advice on what you think would improve the Quincy class.

Shadow Lord: TMK is indeed on that.

All that aside, should Dire Reverend and TMK not mind, I would really like to see everyone's critique's on the different classes, starting with the Quincy, since it has been an issue before. I'm looking only for constructive things here; I don't want to hear that it sucks. So, helpful information, I'll look at. Anything that sounds condescending, refused.

Yes, I typo'd. DC 20 it is. Though my general point of rising difficulty, usually a risk, still applies (if not as much, but close).

As for critique, I've only played an Expert Shinigami, water specialist so I can't say much on the system at this point. I will be playing a vizard blood/projectile soon in Dire's game.

Critique on the water specialist is simple. It starts out behind the other classes in damage, but is very defensive and hard to damage. Over time it gets stronger and stronger. Water is definitely a late game class, but works fine for what the intended goal is. Overall it was very fun and I never saw too big a problem. At low levels it trades offense for defense. At high levels like most D&D classes it shines.

I haven't played a Quincy yet, but I will point out one thing that has been ignored. Personally I don't mind the class. Claiming that it sucks because a bow shinigami is better isn't quite fair to the class. They are different and not meant to be a which is better.

Shinigamis by very nature of being shinigamis will be better. It's part of the template subtype. Quincy and fullbringers are both humans with powers so they will be weaker and the reason to play them is two-fold. One, role playing purposes (If someone wants to play a Quincy, a bow shinigami doesn't cut it) and two, uniqueness.

The fullbringer and quincy class are both weaker than the three shinigami classes, but they are also much different and do different things. The Quincy gets bonuses to using his bow, gets a unique charge and shoot system, and gets a few special bow abilities that the bow shinigami does not. He might not win power for power or even as customizable, but he does have a spot. The fullbringer is the same way. Honestly, playing a Warrior Shinigami is much better than a fullbringer. The fullbringer hardly gets anything and the only special abilities he gets is things like fast healing. Straight up shinigami vs fullbringer, playing the shinigami is better, but sometimes people want to play mortals in a immortal world.

Quincy and fullbrigners aren't classes that are meant to be power to power with Shinigami. They are meant to be a different system and a chance to play mortals with powers. Saying a Soul Reaper/Death God is stronger than a mortal is silly. And power isn't the only reason to play a class. Quincy's have a spot. Hell, speaking sheer power and usefulness the Quincy probably beats out the fullbringer as well, yet both have reasons to be played.

Sure if I wanted the strongest character I'd go Shinigami over Quincy. But at the same time if a Quincy (a MORTAL and HUMAN being) was stronger or on equal power as a Shinigami (an immortal death god) something would be weird. Thus why they have a unique and different system, not a stronger one.

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-10, 11:43 PM
Hm... I've gone over Wind abilities, revising the wordings and such.


Wind Blade
This changes the form of your Zanpakutou into a blade of pure force. Your Zanpakuto now deals Force damage, but its damage is reduced by one step (eg: a Zanpakutou that deals 1d6 damage now deals 1d4). This may still be used in conjunction with Hurricane Blade.

Wind Form
This changes the form of one of the Zanpakutou's attacks to pure force. The effects vary depending on the type of ability chosen- for instance, Projectile-based Zanpakutou will now do force damage, whereas Summon-based Zanpakutou will gain the Force subtype and do force damage. Hurricane Blade may be used in conjunction with Wind Form. Your Zanpakutou's damage decreases by one step when using this ability.

Hurricane Blade
This allows you to charge your Zanpakutou with rippling force. As a move-equivalent action, you can charge your Zanpakutou with force, letting it deal an additional 2d4 points of force damage on a successful attack. This effect lasts until you release your hold on your Zanpakutou or reseal it.

Greater Hurricane Blade
This requires Hurricane Blade to take. It grants an additional 2d4 points of force damage when using Hurricane Blade, for a total of 4d4.

Superior Hurricane Blade
This requires Hurricane Blade and Greater Hurricane Blade to take. It grants an additional 2d4 points of force damage when using Greater Hurricane Blade, for a total of 6d4.

Swift Hurricane Blade
This requires Hurricane Blade to take. It allows you to activate your Hurricane Blade as a Swift Action.

Control Wind
This ability requires one other wind ability to take. As a standard action, you may increase or decrease the wind speed by one increment in a 40 ft. by 40 ft. radius cylinder for ten minutes. This ability may be taken multiple times, each allowing you to increase or decrease the wind by another increment.

Gust of Wind
As a standard action, you may create a strong ''gust of wind'' as per the 2nd level spell, with a caster level equal to your Shinigami level. This ability may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the range of this ability by 10 feet, or increasing the size limitations by one step (eg. Allowing Large creatures to be treated as medium for the effects of this).

Whispering Wind
As a standard action, you may duplicate the effects of the 2nd level spell, with a caster level equal to your character. This ability may be taken multiple times, each time doubling the amount of words allowed, increasing the spread radius by 5 feet, or increasing the range by an extra mile.

Air Walk
This ability requires three other Wind abilities to take. As a standard action, you may duplicate the effect of the 4th level spell of the same name on yourself for as long as your Zanpakutou is released. This ability may be taken multiple times, each time allowing you to resist the effects of wind one increment stronger than normal or to grant the ability to one extra person. If the effects of this ability end while you are still in the air, you begin falling immediately.

Wind Wall
This ability requires one other Wind ability to take. As a standard action, you may duplicate the effects of the 2nd level spell of the same name, with a caster level equal to your Shinigami level.

Gaseous Form
This ability requires one other Wind ability to take. As a standard action, you may duplicate the effects of the 3rd level spell of the same name upon yourself, with a caster level equal to your Shinigami level. You may take this ability multiple times, each time increasing your fly speed while in this form by 5 feet.

Whirlwind
This ability requires four wind abilities to take. As a standard action, you may create Whirlwind as per the 8th level spell, with a caster level equal to your character level. You may take this multiple times, each time allowing the whirlwind to affect creatures one size category larger or increasing the initial damage by 2d6 and the damage taken while suspended by 1d8.


I cropped one that seemed... Well, excessive. The Wind Walk one, because, really, we've got enough transport related stuff here. I also reworked the base wording on these, and adjusted the requirements due to the increase in Shikai abilities gained.


Comments? I'm thinking maybe all shikai abilities should also have a minimum character level on them, too, so we keep the more broken stuff out of lower level characters' hands.

Turalisj
2011-09-11, 12:15 AM
Comments? I'm thinking maybe all shikai abilities should also have a minimum character level on them, too, so we keep the more broken stuff out of lower level characters' hands.

Broken stuff like the Wounding ability on the blood type you mean? Or the bleed effect? Both of those are a bit stronger than any of the element types, which can be resisted, or the poison which you can become immune to/resist with saves. Con damage is a lot harder to stop. Hell, just look how many people prefer the blood type over any other.



<stuff>

See, I'm of the opinion that all the classes should be balanced against each other. The Shinigami should be no stronger than the Quincy or Fullbringer and each should be able to be customized just as well, if not in their own unique way.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-11, 12:21 AM
Broken stuff like the Wounding ability on the blood type you mean? Or the bleed effect? Both of those are a bit stronger than any of the element types, which can be resisted, or the poison which you can become immune to/resist with saves. Con damage is a lot harder to stop. Hell, just look how many people prefer the blood type over any other.

Exactly like that. Well, and stuff that emulates a higher level spell. Can't have level 5 characters running around throwing meteor swarms, now can we? [/exaggeration for comedy]

Major
2011-09-11, 12:28 AM
Exactly like that. Well, and stuff that emulates a higher level spell. Can't have level 5 characters running around throwing meteor swarms, now can we? [/exaggeration for comedy]

Isn't that the basic principle behind "this requires X number of abilities"?

Turalisj
2011-09-11, 12:34 AM
That principle doesn't work too well :smallsigh:

Which is why I had suggested something like a points system.... Would you rather have more math, or someone making a character who can do 50 con damage in a single round?

The-Mage-King
2011-09-11, 12:35 AM
Hm.... Let me see.


How many shikai abilities does a level 7 Warrior Shinigami have? Assuming off the shelf, of course.


2 from obtaining Shikai (1 of each type)

2 from level 5 (no restrictions on type)

2 from level 7 (no restrictions on type)


So 6. Now, he could sink all but one of those into an ability line, having 5 abilities from one specific line. At level 7.



I think we may need to add a level restriction to some.


EDIT: Tura... that won't be easy to figure out, and will take longer. We should just add a few level restrictions to the best abilties, and be done with it. Because we're lazy, and want this to be able to work as-is at the moment.

Of course, working on a point based system at a later point wouldn't be a bad idea...

Turalisj
2011-09-11, 12:44 AM
Add restrictions now, test drive a point buy system later on. It's what the real game writers do :smalltongue:

Giving a simple and flawed system immediately while working on a better one in the background I mean.

Major
2011-09-11, 12:51 AM
I still vastly dislike the point buy system...

I can see the rational behind a level restriction (though I dislike it), but a point buy system seems more trouble than its worth.

Also, 50 con damage isn't possible. You can do 2 con damage max with the two abilities, no need to exaggerate. Neither of which can be taken multiple times.

Blood has restrictions in that things immune to con damage aren't going to be useful much. Plus a lot of their abilities don't stack or allow them to be used at the same time.

Shadow Lord
2011-09-11, 08:10 PM
See, I'm of the opinion that all the classes should be balanced against each other. The Shinigami should be no stronger than the Quincy or Fullbringer and each should be able to be customized just as well, if not in their own unique way.

This has so much truth. Both Quincy and Fullbringer should be just as strong as a Shinigami, or we run into the Wizard/Fighter problem. Maybe to a lesser extent, but the issue still stands. What needs to happen is that the Quincy most be the best at Archery, and about average when at Melee via Selee Schnieder. He should also have a good range of skills, and fun out of combat abilities. With the Fullbringer... well... Fullbringers are pretty much Shinigami as they are right now; they need something that makes it quite clear that they are certainly different than a Shinigami.

Mira_Man
2011-09-12, 01:11 AM
I'd like to help and it seems like I'll have some free time soon, so if I may, I would like to know that works.

In particular there are some things I would like alter about Quincys since they aren't balanced so well against other classes.

Fearan
2011-09-12, 04:24 AM
Also, 50 con damage isn't possible. You can do 2 con damage max with the two abilities, no need to exaggerate. Neither of which can be taken multiple times.

ORLY? Well I dont't think it's RAI, but follow the hands.
Use blood/summoning type
Step 1: Of course, wounding and gretare wounding.
Step 2: Summon, summon swarm, Share abilities.
Now you have a swarm which deal 2 con damage to everyone caught it the swarm attack. Basic swarm is Large, so you can target up to 4 mobs. That would be 8 con damage per round total. Note that swarm attacks always hit so no BAB issues and high AC problems. From now, you've got the basics covered.
Step 3: Give your swarm a fly speed - all this flying in Bleach demands it
Step 4: Pimp it up - advance the size to Collossal to affect more targets, give the swarm extra attacks (hell, extra swarm attacks - someone should reaaaaly fix that), probably more hitpoints.
Step 5: Ban-kai!!!
You get a Colossal moving shapable AOE effect that deal 2*quantity of attacks con damage to all targets in it's space. No attack roll, no save, no SR, no nothing. Oh, yeah and it deals some damage too. Big deal.

Turalisj
2011-09-12, 07:23 AM
I still vastly dislike the point buy system...

I can see the rational behind a level restriction (though I dislike it), but a point buy system seems more trouble than its worth.

Also, 50 con damage isn't possible. You can do 2 con damage max with the two abilities, no need to exaggerate. Neither of which can be taken multiple times.

Blood has restrictions in that things immune to con damage aren't going to be useful much. Plus a lot of their abilities don't stack or allow them to be used at the same time.

Don't underestimate the power of a good min-max and munchkin. :smallwink:

Major
2011-09-12, 11:35 AM
ORLY? Well I dont't think it's RAI, but follow the hands.
Use blood/summoning type
Step 1: Of course, wounding and gretare wounding.
Step 2: Summon, summon swarm, Share abilities.
Now you have a swarm which deal 2 con damage to everyone caught it the swarm attack. Basic swarm is Large, so you can target up to 4 mobs. That would be 8 con damage per round total. Note that swarm attacks always hit so no BAB issues and high AC problems. From now, you've got the basics covered.
Step 3: Give your swarm a fly speed - all this flying in Bleach demands it
Step 4: Pimp it up - advance the size to Collossal to affect more targets, give the swarm extra attacks (hell, extra swarm attacks - someone should reaaaaly fix that), probably more hitpoints.
Step 5: Ban-kai!!!
You get a Colossal moving shapable AOE effect that deal 2*quantity of attacks con damage to all targets in it's space. No attack roll, no save, no SR, no nothing. Oh, yeah and it deals some damage too. Big deal.

Ignoring the fact that you are striking multiple targets not just one, ignoring the fact that you are more likely to have more teammates in that large an area rather than enemies. So its more, you deal 2 con damage to everyone as opposed to 50 con damage.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-12, 11:43 AM
ANYWAY, I'm pretty sure we'll be adding level restrictions to abilities starting now. Which abilties deserve it the most, and how much of a restriction should we give them?


Also, are the Wind abilities I edited clear enough to go on the wiki? Or do I need to do a bit more?

Fearan
2011-09-12, 11:51 AM
ignoring the fact that you are more likely to have more teammates in that large an area rather than enemies..
So what? Swarm just won't attack them.
And yes, it is not 50 con damage to one target in a round, but still with extra attacks it could be somthing like 8-10 con damage per round per target

Major
2011-09-12, 01:51 PM
So what? Swarm just won't attack them.
And yes, it is not 50 con damage to one target in a round, but still with extra attacks it could be somthing like 8-10 con damage per round per target

Pretty sure swarm can't pick who it attacks in that swarms attack anyone in range.

@Ability levels: None of the abilities need it. They have a minimum ability requirement for the powerful ones and it takes away from the customizing.

I understand wanting to add content to the system and fix mistakes and typos, but reworking the way something works isn't adding to a system its making a new one based on an old one.

Beyond the Void created the system core. Consider yourselves splat books and erratas. Completely changing his shikai system seems a bit wrong to do.

Fearan
2011-09-12, 02:12 PM
Well, I'm going to playtest that build in current Bleach game and evaluate performance. So let's suspend the discussion until then

Turalisj
2011-09-12, 02:15 PM
Beyond the Void created the system core. Consider yourselves splat books and erratas. Completely changing his shikai system seems a bit wrong to do.

He hasn't been around for years. Consider him 2.0 and we're updating the system. :smallcool:

Major
2011-09-12, 02:16 PM
Well, I'm going to playtest that build in current Bleach game and evaluate performance. So let's suspend the discussion until then

Point is by the way that I'm pretty sure you could come with builds mixing countless types that could end up powerful. I didn't realize Bleach was underpowered.

Honestly, if you want to talk power the summon type can instantly bring its summon back if it dies with no cooldown thus making targeting the summon completely worthless.

I will also point out that the downside to the blood type is things immune to con damage, etc.

Major
2011-09-12, 02:19 PM
He hasn't been around for years. Consider him 2.0 and we're updating the system. :smallcool:

I know he hasn't been around for years and you aren't quite updating the system so much as fully changing the shikai system. Updating would be errata and adding new abilities (again, splat books).

Changing an entire system where now your shikai is determined based on level rather than abilities is a pain. The ability to customize goes way down.

It ends up powering up certain shikai (cough summon cough) and depowering others that don't need it (blood, water, etc).

The point is that bloods main thing is it debuffs. You spend con to do extra damage, you do con damage, etc. Things immune to con damage suffer. Their strongest attacks also require one to spend con thus weakening themselves.

The shikai system's limiter was always based on number of abilities. Adding levels to all the shikai abilities is a pretty major change. Especially since its limiting things based on what you think. I can probably go through the list and point out how most abilities can be a bitch.

Major
2011-09-12, 03:29 PM
Sorry about double post, but here is what I got after a brief look at each type. I didn't TRY to find awesome combos, I just looked at obvious things.

**General**

Increased Ability Score: +2 to any ability score, taken multiple times. Mix this with constant release and bam you got a major high stats character. Perhaps a Kido specialized Zanpakuto with general to boost their casting stat?

Skillful: +10 to a skill might not seem like much, but Iaijutsu focus is a skill. Also one would be able to balance on air much sooner. Other skills like diplomacy are broken enough. Now with a +10 only a couple times and you auto turn everyone you meat from hostile to fanatic at even lower levels.
==Do note this is listed twice on the SRD

Change the Source: I'm SAD...so very SAD.


**Assassin**
Optimized this type can easily do a quick and instant auto-death. Mix this type with Water or something so you are invisible and go to school. Get a shikai type that is a light weapon and use a skill trick "Mosquito's bite". You are invisible, you hit them once, then finish them off. Mix this with increased ability score to get a CRAZY high DC and go to school.
=Do note that the save isn't to resist the death, but is mad to not get hit twice. So if they don't know they aren't hit they wouldn't GET that save. Thus auto-death.

Build Suggestion
Specialized Assassin-type
Assassin Strike x3 (2 HITS=Death on DC 10+1/2 level+DEX mod)
Swift Assassin Strike x3 (No prep, just kill)
Increased Ability Score Dex for the rest.

With specialised you have one type, four abilities. You get 1/3 your level amount of times taken. By level 3 you have
-Assassin Strike, Swift Assassin Strike, Increased Ability Score Dex, one other of your choice.

With a Water/Assassin you have two and can spend a feat to get extend shikai.
Assassin Strike, Swift Assassin Strike, Increased Ability Score Dex.

Even without spending the rest of feats on the Extend Shikai (though you get better). By level 9 you are at your height.
-Assassin Strike x3 (Level 3, Level 7 Level 9)
-Swift Assassin Strike x3 (Level 3, level 7, level 9)
-Improved Dex x2 (Level 5, level 5) (x3 if you take extend just once)

With 18 starting dex you could have 26 dex (more if you aren't human) Thus a +8. So DC=22 or more if you actually get the reflex save.
Level 10 it gets better. If dedicated warrior you get another shikai ability and can take another dex booster. Thus +9 Dex mod (DC=24).

This can keep going. With water you get invisibility for better assassinating.

**Barrier**
Defensive Surge/Greater Defensive surge You get +4 AC times the amount of times taken. That can make you a real bitch to hit. Not great, but it can be a lifesaver since you do it in response to an attack. "Hmmm, that would hit me...I'll stop it" Mix with true defense to do it multiple times. Mix with shielding to never get hit.

A level 9 shinigami would be +8 class bonus, mix with a high dex (see above), mixed with those abilities could easily get +12 Defensive Surge, +6 Shielding, +8 class bonus, +8 (or more) Dex. For a minimum (without items or natural armor) +34 to their AC. Level 9, 44 AC. Sound sexy? This is without actually taking the armor or divine guard which is +4 also.

=Do note a lot of barrier abilities are the same thing, but not specialized. Example the "pick one" and then list everything are just combined versions of the other barrier abilities. Might want to cut those unless they stack and by RAW they don't.

**Blood**
I think others covered why this can get nasty? Do note that only one ability of theirs gets nasty. Others are a bit...meh. So you'd be picking an ability just for con damage. It has other nice abilities, but most aren't really worth it.


**Darkness**
Everyone here DOES know Evad's Black Tentacles is one of the best spells right? Next Darkness+Dark vision + Bestow Dark vision and constant release. Always create something nobody but you and your team can see in. Its permanent because you bestow the dark vision once and bam. (Do note to see in magical darkness you need dark vision twice, but still)

This one is more a debuffer and not too broken, but when the DM is told "All your monsters are useless because he has unlimited darkness and unlimited evad's black tentacles" you know you cringe. Think about it. Darkness the party can see in at will. Evad's Black Tentacles at will.

**Earth Type**
Resistance to Acid is rare. While not broken, this type is hard to resist. I COULD see it mixed with darkness to make evad's, darkness, and shattering strike. Still, its not too high. You sacrifice power for reliablity (little risk of it being blocked).

Though making an Earth and Water could be amusing with water breathing :P


**Elemental**
"I was going to pick an element, but then I realized I could pick all the elements at once". Given the tradeoff is you have to be elementally attuned, but with the right party or kido that isn't too hard. Kido on yourself to get an element. Again, not broken, but VERY flexible.

**Fire Type**
I'll admit this one is very bleh. Fire is commonly resisted and it has nothing that makes it useful really. The worst you can do is be undead (immune to non-lethal damage) and then use caterize. But still. It needs a boost. Note how I don't say "weaken everything" I say "Boost this. Give it an ability nothing else has"


**Heal Type**
Really this is a support. It doesn't really get broken since its only used in response to other things. It gets really good healing and a healing type Zanpakuto means the party will have full health most the time. Other than that regeneration is its best ability other than support. Not underpowered, not overpowered. It does what it needs to do and people will always have a reason for it existing.

**Ice**
Alright...Icy Regeneartion is a bit unclear. The RAW vs RAI is weird. If your zanpakuto is broken how can you use Icy Regeneration. Thus it means one of a four things. 1) You can use that ability anyways. 2) Its great for a duel-zanpakuto 3) A teammate can use it on your blade. 4) Its useless. 1-3 means final shikai/final bankai is now broken. Congrats, no cost. 4 means wtf?

Freezing Blow reminds me of shivering touch. Anyone know what one of the most broken spells is in D&D? Given, its only 1 damage, but it can stack. Basically if you claim Blood type is broken then Ice type is as well. This is the blood ability but with dex OR str. Upgraded is also means fail fort save and you frozen and useless. Fail a reflex and you paralyzed. You can continue to raise the DC.

Its last ability Seal Wounds takes away the only upside to fire. Ice type is superior to fire in all ways.

**Kido**
Moon Power: Bonus to caster level means low levels are using spells like high levels. THe rest of the abilities are basically free-metamagic or "turn any spell into a blast attack". Considering how magic/psionics tends to be better than physical free metamagic and caster level boost can add to the power. Still, most are pretty meh, Moon power is the best ability though the others have uses for blasters.

**Light Type**
Untyped damage is nice, but overall its more a cool class than a power class. Brillant Energy as early as level 3 is nice, but not horrible considering its Bleach not D&D.

**Lightning Type**
Another cool, but not quite powerful. Lightning is resisted a little less than fire and ice, but its still not too great. Thunderstorm is rather nice, but random. Lightning bolt is sadly based on your stats not the spell, but while weaker it does have a few reasons to take the class. One of two extra abilities might help, but isn't needed.

**Oppression Type**
A major debuffer. As such it is similar to healing in that there is reason to take this and it can't really be compared pure powerwise. Either way it has an ability BETTER than bloods. In that it is -2 to a stat and can be taken multiple times. You could literally make it where anyone in range of your oppression is paralyzed (dex) or just dies (con) or comma (cha/wis/int) depending on what you wanted. Again, multiple times so you can boost it to a pretty high con negative. Worse than wounding. Given, it isn't lethal, but its auto-knock out which then means you can walk up and kill them. Even without blood type you lower someones con by such a large amount their HP is going to get a MAJOR drop.

Blood/Oppression type: Oppress them down to really low con. Knock them out with the aura and then just stab them. OR if they don't just drop you've still got them weaker to kill them with blood type.

**Poison Type**
Buffed enough the poison has the potential to do more stat damage than blood or oppression. Sure a save is able to be made, but you can up the save pretty easily. Plus you can pick what stat to target after taking the ability ONCE. Change the source+change poison derivation can make this class VERY SAD. Plus each time you lower one stat resisting it gets harder and harder. Next some abilities make it where you don't even need to hurt the enemy. You can make the poison just contact, inhale, etc. Evil poison really dooms the person, but is VERY ability heavy. 1d6 to all abilities and paralyzed. To resist you need to make every save (will, reflex, fort). Very heavy requirements, but even without it you can debuff a stat to really low levels.

**Projectile type**
Really not that great, but hey, it can still be used. Range is always nice, if they can't get you they can't kill you. Various abilities let you add both str once and dex twice to damage and you can make AoE attacks if you need to hit a lot of people. It has uses, but is not the most powerful. Still has lots of reasons to be taken however.

**Sonic Type**
Similar to acid in that little resist it. Not super powerful, but hard to block. Once again sacrifice power for almost guaranteed damage. Plus double damage if lethal is always nice, but not too bad.

**Summoning Type**
I played in a game where a player had this. It was pretty cruel. He had a fleshraker. Yes. I know. But nothing stops it. The thing is that you get an extra character with extra attacks and usually powerful abilities that there is no risk to using. If it dies you summon again. This gives countless special abilities, special attacks, large versitility, and the ability to get extra actions (your summon gets its own standard and move). Basically you summon another character who is most likely stronger than you are. Size is the only limit. Not HD, just size. Sure max stats are yours x1.5, but what about abilities and such? Next you can buff its size, give it extra attacks, and remoe the only downside (no zanpakuto) with one ability.

**Technology Type**
Uhhh...just gonna skip this one. It's a bit weird.

**Water Type**
Water is a really useful type, but it has a major downside of being VERY ability heavy. Most Hollows lack will saves. Turning invisible is always nice and being able to go hide off the battle field and fight with illusions is very useful. However it will fall behind due to the limited damage until higher levels. This type is useful and safe, but not as powerful. At high levels it can get multiple attacks that do decent damage however. Multiplying attacks and damage can rise quickly. Basically this is a late game ability. Safe but weak early on, strong later on.

Oh, it can also be used to breath under water and drown things I guess. But its a bit tricky and situational in that case. I've considered making a character that creates a water box trap, but with barrier and earth its been hard so I'm still trying to find a way to do it.

**Weapon Type**
Eh, extra damage and weapon abilities can be nice. Improved reach can get really sick with an AoO build. Overall it has uses, but in general is very basic. It isn't overpowered, but it can still fit the role it was given.

**Wind Type**
Overall an interesting and useful, but not overpowered type. Gaseous form can be useful at times. Whirlwind can also get powerful, but has tradeoffs. It could use a few extra abilities, but it isn't required.

Turalisj
2011-09-12, 03:33 PM
Actually, that was a triple post.

Major
2011-09-12, 03:42 PM
*checks* So it was.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-12, 05:21 PM
Beyond the Void created the system core. Consider yourselves splat books and erratas. Completely changing his shikai system seems a bit wrong to do.

So? The use of Spell Points has been changed to Spiritual Energy, and you aren't complaining about that. Besides, the original system has yet to be playtested successfully, and so we optimizers are seeing the potential issues and thinking of ways to curb them.



Moving on to your analysis, I think I agree on most of those points.



All in favor of changing the Specialized Zanpakutou feat to only give you one additional ability each time, and the Constant Release feat to... Oh, require you to use a move action to activate any constant effects (or up to four as a full-round action) for a number of rounds equal to your Shinigami level, so as to nerf the potential of those buffs being on all the time? If we add in an effect for the Quick Release feat that it reduces the time to activate a buff to a swift, two for a move, or eight for a full-round, it should work out fairly well...

Major
2011-09-12, 08:22 PM
So? The use of Spell Points has been changed to Spiritual Energy, and you aren't complaining about that. Besides, the original system has yet to be playtested successfully, and so we optimizers are seeing the potential issues and thinking of ways to curb them.



Moving on to your analysis, I think I agree on most of those points.



All in favor of changing the Specialized Zanpakutou feat to only give you one additional ability each time, and the Constant Release feat to... Oh, require you to use a move action to activate any constant effects (or up to four as a full-round action) for a number of rounds equal to your Shinigami level, so as to nerf the potential of those buffs being on all the time? If we add in an effect for the Quick Release feat that it reduces the time to activate a buff to a swift, two for a move, or eight for a full-round, it should work out fairly well...


Ummm...ew? There then becomes little reason to be specialized and it ends up nerfing and hindering the types that require lots of abilities (water specialist). One extra ability really doesn't make specialized at all worth it. I only pointed out specialized in a few cases to speed up how quickly I could get a process done and avoid taking extend shikai as much.

As for constant release I'm also going to say yuck. Most 'buffs' aren't very major other than the stat boost. Hindering a lot of builds just because of the potential for stat boost seems gross. If one really is worried about the stat buffs being too high limit them, not constant release.

The problem seems to be that someone sees a potential for brokenness so you nerf the wrong thing. "Oh someone can get crazy stat boost, rather than nerf the boost I'll nerf how constant release." "Oh someone can do 100s of con damage by adding the blood ability to a swarm, better nerf the blood ability." "Oh someone can get extra abilities by only ever getting ONE type to choose from thus getting rid of most the broken combos, better get rid of that."

Specialized is really the worst one to try and nerf. You have to not only spend a feat to get it, but you give up the ability to get ANY other type. You can't mix it with multiple-type so its a permanent ONE type. Specialized is the least broken shikai since it is limited to being by itself and doesn't get gross mixes. You'll notice most my comments said "This can get better by mixing X". Only two builds said specialized was good (and one said adding it to another would make it better; the other said it was the only way to keep up in terms of damage).

AShadowofLife
2011-09-12, 10:13 PM
Quincy have been updated. I'll be adding more as I work out the bugs.

New Class Features to come:
Seele Schneider creation.
Inner Bow (Quincy Bankai, not canon but inspired by another Bleach community from Neverwinter Nights.)
Ginto

Will work on speaking with those involved about the Shikai types. I personally like the current system, and a point based system.. bleh. Maybe have it as an alternative? Level restrictions... eh, doesn't really fit per say, as much as just adding other power requirements. Assassination is a very strong type, going to work on tweaking it a tad, not sure how.. as it was partially based on Soi Fon's Shikai. Note: Poison immunity would negate Assassination's death power, I'll need to update that.

Nerameshu
2011-09-12, 10:20 PM
Major: Keep in mind this is supposed to be a high powered game. I mean, what are you comparing the power of these abilities to? Part of the point about this is to let people build custom high powered characters, specializing in whatever aspect they want. So someone wants to build an assassin guy. Pit them against the Constant Release guy with maximum buffs in Strength. (I'm imagining Soi Fon vs. Ichigo here. Who would win?)

Once again, not to sound condescending, but have you played these builds? Have you had them face off? If you had, what was the result?

AShadowofLife: Good to see your name floating around.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-12, 10:26 PM
Thanks! Working on some more goodies for various classes. Quincy is my current focus, followed by either Hollow or Fullbringer. Shinigami last on my list as they already have enough goodies to last a bit.

I'll work on a Specialized Zanpakuto nerf. Give me time.

Edit: Added 4 new fire abilities. Thinking about adding another degree.. but it might be too OP. (Cannot be healed in combat.) Exclusive to Fire. Thoughts?

More tweaks and edits as they come!

Major
2011-09-12, 10:46 PM
Quincy have been updated. I'll be adding more as I work out the bugs.

New Class Features to come:
Seele Schneider creation.
Inner Bow (Quincy Bankai, not canon but inspired by another Bleach community from Neverwinter Nights.)
Ginto

Will work on speaking with those involved about the Shikai types. I personally like the current system, and a point based system.. bleh. Maybe have it as an alternative? Level restrictions... eh, doesn't really fit per say, as much as just adding other power requirements. Assassination is a very strong type, going to work on tweaking it a tad, not sure how.. as it was partially based on Soi Fon's Shikai. Note: Poison immunity would negate Assassination's death power, I'll need to update that.

I also agree. Keep it the same. Glad I'm not the only one.


Major: Keep in mind this is supposed to be a high powered game. I mean, what are you comparing the power of these abilities to? Part of the point about this is to let people build custom high powered characters, specializing in whatever aspect they want. So someone wants to build an assassin guy. Pit them against the Constant Release guy with maximum buffs in Strength. (I'm imagining Soi Fon vs. Ichigo here. Who would win?)

Once again, not to sound condescending, but have you played these builds? Have you had them face off? If you had, what was the result?

AShadowofLife: Good to see your name floating around.

Uhhh...not to sound condescending myself, but have you read my post? I listed all that as defense on why you don't limit or hinder builds.

I'm a fan of keeping it how it is. I'm the one who wants to keep it the same. Discussions were made to nerf blood and others because they were "too powerful" and my point was ANY type can be powerful done right.

I want it kept the same.

Major
2011-09-12, 10:48 PM
Thanks! Working on some more goodies for various classes. Quincy is my current focus, followed by either Hollow or Fullbringer. Shinigami last on my list as they already have enough goodies to last a bit.

I'll work on a Specialized Zanpakuto nerf. Give me time.

Edit: Added 4 new fire abilities. Thinking about adding another degree.. but it might be too OP. (Cannot be healed in combat.) Exclusive to Fire. Thoughts?

Specialized doesn't need a nerf >.> A nerf to specialized is only going to weaken the weak classes that need it. Most powerful builds require two, few require one.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-12, 10:57 PM
Ummm...ew? There then becomes little reason to be specialized and it ends up nerfing and hindering the types that require lots of abilities (water specialist). One extra ability really doesn't make specialized at all worth it. I only pointed out specialized in a few cases to speed up how quickly I could get a process done and avoid taking extend shikai as much.


One extra ability wouldn't. But multiplying your total number of abilities from class levels by 1.5 does. I'm suggesting a more fair tradeoff- options for numbers. Like the Wiz/Sorc trade. Strike that. I was apparently misreading the feat as "2 extra whenever you gain new Shikai abilities", not "Two extra at 3rd level". My bad.1


As for constant release I'm also going to say yuck. Most 'buffs' aren't very major other than the stat boost. Hindering a lot of builds just because of the potential for stat boost seems gross. If one really is worried about the stat buffs being too high limit them, not constant release.


Thing is... Being able to keep any buffs up 24/7 is... Well, kinda not that good from a balance standpoint. I really think that even people with constant release should have to draw on the power of their zanpakutou to actually get the benefit of those buffs. Even if they "aren't that good". Besides, what sort of build does it limit? One that is mist at all times? one that has illusions up 24/7?

Gee. I wonder if those might need a nerf bat to the face.


The problem seems to be that someone sees a potential for brokenness so you nerf the wrong thing. "Oh someone can get crazy stat boost, rather than nerf the boost I'll nerf how constant release." "Oh someone can do 100s of con damage by adding the blood ability to a swarm, better nerf the blood ability." "Oh someone can get extra abilities by only ever getting ONE type to choose from thus getting rid of most the broken combos, better get rid of that."

Er... Nope. I just think taking a feat to trade off 1/3rd of your options for double the abilities is kinda imbalanced. You know, kind of like letting a wizard trade off three schools to get his spells per day doubled. Maybe not to the extent, but...

Again, strike that. Misread the ability.


Specialized is really the worst one to try and nerf. You have to not only spend a feat to get it, but you give up the ability to get ANY other type. You can't mix it with multiple-type so its a permanent ONE type. Specialized is the least broken shikai since it is limited to being by itself and doesn't get gross mixes. You'll notice most my comments said "This can get better by mixing X". Only two builds said specialized was good (and one said adding it to another would make it better; the other said it was the only way to keep up in terms of damage).

Ah, I see. You're thinking in terms of pure damage here. See, I see debuffs and other abilities as also needing to be balanced, and each type having a "style" it falls into.

Like Water. Water is the misdirection type, with some additional, but not super good, damage abilities. It isn't about killing things, though it certainly can become more than capable at it, but about distracting things.

Then there's Fire. Now, Fire should be the massive elemental damage type. Except it isn't that good.

Air? Transport/decent amounts of damage, which is mostly specialized to deal with things weak to Force damage.

Earth? Battlefield control, with some acid damage- perfect for removing structures and putting some up, no?

Yet again, strike that. Though I still think that I have a point- those abilities fall into individual styles, and trying to make everything be balanced on damage won't work very well. We need to think about what each type should do and adjust them to fit.


Will work on speaking with those involved about the Shikai types. I personally like the current system, and a point based system.. bleh. Maybe have it as an alternative? Level restrictions... eh, doesn't really fit per say, as much as just adding other power requirements.

Alright, then. I know a few people have expressed distaste at changing the system to a point based one, but... It seems like it'd get the system balanced. Level restrictions beyond the "This many abilities of this type" and "no more instances of this ability than 1/3rd your level" may become nessicary, though, and it wouldn't hurt to think about them.

Binks
2011-09-12, 11:32 PM
Some random notes from the various times I've played using this system (I think I've played 3 games? I can't quite remember if #2 actually started or not, 1 and 3 were both spellcasters, so most of my commentary is focused there).

Everything being a full action default for kidou makes some of the spells worthless. Burst and Hustle being two immediately obvious ones. Both are strictly worse than just taking a double move action in the current system, even when cast incantation-less.

I think the kidou time should be changed to depend on the time of the ability in 3.5. Something like:
3.5 Bleach d20
Standard -> Full/Standard (w/out incantation)
Move -> Standard/Move (w/out incantation)
Swift -> Standard/Swift (w/out incantation)

A change like that is certainly not going to break anything (as the min-time for a kidou is the time it takes to cast in 3.5) but it opens up a lot of spells that are currently completely worthless without an incanting zanpakutou to be useful for anyone.

And on the topic of incanting zanpakutou...why is this a shikai ability? Where in bleach is the character whose sword makes them better at kidou? If anything we see a lot of the opposite, the best kidou users either don't carry a zanpakutou (the kidou corps from what we've seen) or don't release it very often (unahara). This seems more like the sort of ability that would work better as a feat chain, something not linked to the sword at all. It would make spellcasters more flexible (no more shikai-type tax for people who want to cast a lot) and make them the ones that tend to release as a last resort rather than first thing in the battle...which fits what we see in the show a lot better.

My .02 cents on the system. It's a lot of fun and I'm glad to see it's still being worked on.

Major
2011-09-13, 12:07 AM
Thing is... Being able to keep any buffs up 24/7 is... Well, kinda not that good from a balance standpoint. I really think that even people with constant release should have to draw on the power of their zanpakutou to actually get the benefit of those buffs. Even if they "aren't that good". Besides, what sort of build does it limit? One that is mist at all times? one that has illusions up 24/7?

Gee. I wonder if those might need a nerf bat to the face.

Then limit the buffs, not constant release. If constant release isn't constant what is the point? Shikai already last a long amount of time and is based on SEP. It's very easy to keep Shikai up for long periods of time without constant so don't limit constant. If a person waste all their feats on stat buffing they won't be very versatile.

In addition the main buff that is a problem is the +stats. Its basically a magic item anyways so who cares? If you really want make it a type of bonus that won't stack with magic items. Then the person picks to either be magic item less or have more abilities.

It's not that big a deal. Level 1-3 you can get +2 to stats. 4-6 +4 7-9 +6. It's really not THAT bad especially since it cost you abilities which would probably be more useful. +6 str would cost you three abilities and would do a minor +3 modifier. Instead one could take much better abilities.

I'll also point out that constant release means you can't suppress reiatsu until high levels thus stealth is forever out of the question. Next most the buffs really aren't that great. The illusions is actually nice for a character that wants to hide who they really are. (I played a water specialist who constantly used illusions). Speaking of 24/7 illusions you do realize directing an illusion takes a standard action. Invisible takes a standard (or is it move?) action. Creating takes a standard action. Overall just for a water person to get his stuff ready takes multiple turns. Constant release at least helps a little because it means one less thing (though even still invisibility is limited in rounds and illusions usually change by combat). Plus you say keeps up illusions 24/7. He still has to focus on them. Who is going to say "I spend the next day concentrating on keeping an illusion of this bridge up"?

The biggest "problem" is the attribute boost and most don't take it because there are more fun options. Limiting constant release is just not really worth it. If you HAVE to limit something because you don't realize Bleach means everyone is powerful then limit the buff not constant.


Ah, I see. You're thinking in terms of pure damage here. See, I see debuffs and other abilities as also needing to be balanced, and each type having a "style" it falls into.

Like Water. Water is the misdirection type, with some additional, but not super good, damage abilities. It isn't about killing things, though it certainly can become more than capable at it, but about distracting things.

Then there's Fire. Now, Fire should be the massive elemental damage type. Except it isn't that good.

Air? Transport/decent amounts of damage, which is mostly specialized to deal with things weak to Force damage.

Earth? Battlefield control, with some acid damage- perfect for removing structures and putting some up, no?

Though I still think that I have a point- those abilities fall into individual styles, and trying to make everything be balanced on damage won't work very well. We need to think about what each type should do and adjust them to fit.

I'm not saying everything based on damage. I only mentioned damage because con damage seemed to be why you all wanted to nerf blood. A specialist chooses to be stronger in ONE area and that's what it does. A water specialist means he'll only be using illusions and nothing else, he better get better at illusions because of it. Plus feats like multi-type now become unusable. So the unspecialized guy can get lots of abilities from more list, the specialist is limited to one. Next due to the limit of 1/3 level it means that a specialist is usually forced to take powers that nobody would want sometimes. You make a trade for two extra abilities ONCE and in exchange lose a lot more over the course of the rest of your levels. It's a trade off.


Alright, then. I know a few people have expressed distaste at changing the system to a point based one, but... It seems like it'd get the system balanced. Level restrictions beyond the "This many abilities of this type" and "no more instances of this ability than 1/3rd your level" may become nessicary, though, and it wouldn't hurt to think about them.

It really wouldn't. The 'balance' exist because everyone is powerful. When I play D&D and I use my tier 3 or 4 class I feel weaker and useless compared to the tier 1 and 2. Bleach I've NEVER felt useless even as a non-damage dealer (my water character) because EVERYONE is Tier one.

Comments in bold.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 12:29 AM
I will say this.. Bleach D20 Classless was originally using a Point system, they opted out for "our" system as it is, with tweaks here and there.

Personally, I've always found Specialized Zanpakuto feat a tad weak.. two extra abilities for the loss of ever getting an additional type? I might buff this a small amount, giving extra abilities at certain levels. (Not -too- many extra's though. Maybe 3-4. Thoughts?)

Also.. no comments on the No in Combat healing for fire?

Major
2011-09-13, 12:34 AM
I will say this.. Bleach D20 Classless was originally using a Point system, they opted out for "our" system as it is, with tweaks here and there.

Personally, I've always found Specialized Zanpakuto feat a tad weak.. two extra abilities for the loss of ever getting an additional type? I might buff this a small amount, giving extra abilities at certain levels. (Not -too- many extra's though. Maybe 3-4. Thoughts?)

Also.. no comments on the No in Combat healing for fire?

Missed the no combat healing for fire. I think if you did it for fire, ice needs to be the same. Personally I think this is nice because healing gets something special. I do think its a slight downside since fire needs more, not less, but you said you added more fire abilities.

And finally I'm glad someone sees the specialized thing. When they started saying it was OP I was like "you ****ting me?" I'm fine either way. I'll say specialized doesn't need a nerf that is a definite. Extra abilities, not sure. Depends on how it is done. But yes, one small ability bonus (that still has the "no more than 1/3 level" clause) for never getting an extra type (short of bankai which is two types) being OP is a silly claim. If anything its a permanent weakness for a short bonus.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 09:18 AM
thoughts on the changes to quincy:

It's good that the Quincy can now have bonuses to their bow damage - it means they can actually be proficient archers now, rather than pathetic ones.

Hirenkyaku: this is described as a basic quincey technique, so I think level 11 is a bit of a high level to get it. making a full platform to remain stable/help others (such as Ishada does in heuco mundo) should be the high level ability, maybe? maybe put it at level 5 like shunpo :smallbiggrin: also, maybe allow quincey with this to count for shunpo feats

bow atributes: I like them, they're quite nice, and seem to meet the Quincey's focus on destruction. I can't think of much more that makes sense to them.

master shots:
soul shot seems a bit powerful for 5 soul charges, since it can single handedly cripple someoe who relies on kido. other than that, I like them :smallbiggrin:

lastly, though this does risk making them feel like bleach's version of rangers, Ishida often says that a Quincey's power to sense and observe reitsu are stronger than an average shinigami, so maybe give them reitsu tracking as a feat. also, maybe let them add their SEP to the maximum number of charges a quincey can have, just to give them a reason for having it

Final Bow: rather than the final bow ability, it might be a good idea to give them some form of magic/kido. the quincy are introduced as a form of magician in the manga, and Ishida shows himself having some forms of magic when he was depowered - though maybe a lower level than shinigami.

Binks
2011-09-13, 09:53 AM
Been thinking some more about the kido/incantation system. Got a possible idea for a feat chain to move this out of shikai abilities, as it really just does not seem to fit there. I think there should be a kido feat category, stick alternate demon path in there, and add some to make playing a spellcaster entirely possible without even needing shikai.

Some feat ideas:

Eishōhaki (Incantation Abandonment)
Prerequisite - ???
Benefit - Choose a number of Kido spells from your known spell list equal to your charisma modifier. You may cast these spells without incantation. Spells you cast in this manner cannot be augmented.
Normal - You can only spells without incantation at 1/2 your caster level or less.
Special - You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat you may select new spells to apply it to.
If you have the alternate demon path feat you may select a number of spells equal to your modifier in whatever ability you use to cast kido.
Whenever you gain a level you may change which spells were selected by this feat. When re-selecting in this manner you must choose spells whose level is 1 less than the maximum level spell known.

Kōjutsu Eishō (Spoken-After Incantation)
Prerequisite - ???
Benefit - When casting a kido whose duration is greater than 1 round without incantation you may, at any time during the duration of the spell, choose to speak the incantation as a standard action. If you do so you may augment the spell normally, even if you could not do so when casting it. You may double your SPE for the purposes of spending SEP on augmenting a spell cast this way. The augmented changes are not retroactive but begin applying in the round that you speak the augmentation. You must succeed at a concentration check to speak the incantation for a kido spell in this way. The DC is 5+rounds since casting the spell.
Normal - You may not speak the incantation for a spell except while casting it and cannot augment a spell cast without incantation beyond half your caster level.

??? (Quickened Casting)
Prerequisite - Incantation Abandonment, ???
Benefit - Choose a number of kido spells equal to half your charisma modifier that you can cast without incantation. Once per round you may cast one of these spells without incantation un-augmented as a swift action.
Normal - Casting a spell without incantation normally takes a standard action
Special - You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat you may select new spells to apply it to.
If you have the alternate demon path feat you may select a number of spells equal to your modifier in whatever ability you use to cast kido.
Whenever you gain a level you may change which spells were selected by this feat. When re-selecting in this manner you must choose spells whose level is 1 less than the maximum level spell known.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 10:08 AM
Been thinking some more about the kido/incantation system. Got a possible idea for a feat chain to move this out of shikai abilities, as it really just does not seem to fit there. I think there should be a kido feat category, stick alternate demon path in there, and add some to make playing a spellcaster entirely possible without even needing shikai.

maybe, but the focus for the shinigami is that the source of their power comes from their zankaputo, cutting out that for their kido means they can maintain a full set of other zankaputo powers as well as having epicly-powered casting, which will be rediculously overpowering - recreating the current fighter/wizard DnD effect, something this system has been trying to avoid so far

maybe if they give up their shinkai abilities to take those abilites as a feat, it's fairer, but both together is sickening - since you'd just take a protection/oppression zankaputo so you don't need to attack, then obliterate people with Kido stronger than other peoples attacks, whilst also being able to cripple other peoples stats, and being protected from harm.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 10:21 AM
sorry for the double post, but I was just reading the hollow parragon, and I think I noticed something a little overpowering:

a hollow that has become an arrancar deal's Zankaputo damage equal to their natural weapon - which ends up 7d6 (max 42, average 23) as opposed to the warrior shinigami's 2d10 (average 11, max 20). this is ok when it's a single attack from a natural weapon, but when it's the 4 (up to 8 with abilities) attacks from a ankaputo, it puts a shinigami's to shame, which is shouldn't do.

along the same line, but of a lesser importance, I don't feel that an arrancar's sword should have the same number of shinkai abilities as a shinigami's at high levels - thanks to their better saves, enduring hollow powers, base damage resistance and cero, they're stronger than a shinigami with dedicated warrior (which gives them the same feat progression).


edit: also, to clarify, does a hollow paragon have the hollow template, or is it just a class name?

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 10:26 AM
thoughts on the changes to quincy:

It's good that the Quincy can now have bonuses to their bow damage - it means they can actually be proficient archers now, rather than pathetic ones.

Hirenkyaku: this is described as a basic quincey technique, so I think level 11 is a bit of a high level to get it. making a full platform to remain stable/help others (such as Ishada does in heuco mundo) should be the high level ability, maybe? maybe put it at level 5 like shunpo :smallbiggrin: also, maybe allow quincey with this to count for shunpo feats

Will be tweaking the level of this shortly. Next updates will be tweaking a few things.


bow atributes: I like them, they're quite nice, and seem to meet the Quincey's focus on destruction. I can't think of much more that makes sense to them.

Awesome, thanks! Looking for more bow attributes still. You'll see why in the near future.


master shots:
soul shot seems a bit powerful for 5 soul charges, since it can single handedly cripple someoe who relies on kido. other than that, I like them :smallbiggrin: Will work on this, I was focused on a few other things first.


lastly, though this does risk making them feel like bleach's version of rangers, Ishida often says that a Quincey's power to sense and observe reitsu are stronger than an average shinigami, so maybe give them reitsu tracking as a feat. also, maybe let them add their SEP to the maximum number of charges a quincey can have, just to give them a reason for having it Most likely will give them the feat, not sure about SP (Renaming my system for easier use of words.. <<;)
Adding the SEP amount straight to their charges would be OP.. adding additional amounts based on it though, could be useful.. will think on something for it.


Final Bow: rather than the final bow ability, it might be a good idea to give them some form of magic/kido. the quincy are introduced as a form of magician in the manga, and Ishida shows himself having some forms of magic when he was depowered - though maybe a lower level than shinigami.

See: Ginto
Previously posted I was going to be adding this as well.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 10:35 AM
Adding the SEP amount straight to their charges would be OP.. adding additional amounts based on it though, could be useful.. will think on something for it.

hence why I said add it to their maximum, since the max ammount you can have is 8 in a normal game, it dosen't really make the maximum that much higher. I didn't mean adding it to the amount they generate - that would be op

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 11:17 AM
Oh, you meant the number roll added.. that's a tad weak really. But I will take this idea, and expand upon it a little bit. I'll give Quincy their bonus Maximum held charge bonus for SEP.

Volos
2011-09-13, 11:29 AM
This really is an amazing system, if I do say so myself. Despite the high power level of characters within it, I've had alot of fun both playing and running Bleach D20. A clearer explination of the Vizard prestige class would be helpful, as it seems no matter how well you try to explain it to your players they will want to play a Vizard at 2nd level. :smallyuk:

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 11:31 AM
And maybe adding a thing saying that the characters can come up with interesting ways to obtain Vizard themselves (like splitting their hollow form out of them and beating it in combat)

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 11:44 AM
Major- this has been spoilered to reduce size.

Then limit the buffs, not constant release. If constant release isn't constant what is the point? Shikai already last a long amount of time and is based on SEP. It's very easy to keep Shikai up for long periods of time without constant so don't limit constant. If a person waste all their feats on stat buffing they won't be very versatile.

Yes, but that keeps a constant drain on resources that could otherwise be used to fuel different abilities. Hence, I think it's fair enough to be able to keep Shikai up for a long time like that. Limiting constant release... Well, the idea is


In addition the main buff that is a problem is the +stats. Its basically a magic item anyways so who cares? If you really want make it a type of bonus that won't stack with magic items. Then the person picks to either be magic item less or have more abilities.

It's not that big a deal. Level 1-3 you can get +2 to stats. 4-6 +4 7-9 +6. It's really not THAT bad especially since it cost you abilities which would probably be more useful. +6 str would cost you three abilities and would do a minor +3 modifier. Instead one could take much better abilities.

I know it isn't that big of a deal. But having a good number of buffs active at all times, plus magic items... Well, you know.


I'll also point out that constant release means you can't suppress reiatsu until high levels thus stealth is forever out of the question.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! DC15 check to suppress your Shikai if you have Constant Release. Check it.


Next most the buffs really aren't that great. The illusions is actually nice for a character that wants to hide who they really are. (I played a water specialist who constantly used illusions). Speaking of 24/7 illusions you do realize directing an illusion takes a standard action. Invisible takes a standard (or is it move?) action. Creating takes a standard action. Overall just for a water person to get his stuff ready takes multiple turns. Constant release at least helps a little because it means one less thing (though even still invisibility is limited in rounds and illusions usually change by combat). Plus you say keeps up illusions 24/7. He still has to focus on them. Who is going to say "I spend the next day concentrating on keeping an illusion of this bridge up"?

Yes, a Water specialist needs time to get ready. That's part of their schtick. Wow. How suprising. It also takes a move action to direct the illusion, but with Shunpo as a swift, that can safely be considered unimportant.


As for who would say that...

Well, I know I would. Just to troll the party.

"I keep the illusion of you all being girls up for the next week. Yes, I'm not resting while I do it."



The biggest "problem" is the attribute boost and most don't take it because there are more fun options. Limiting constant release is just not really worth it. If you HAVE to limit something because you don't realize Bleach means everyone is powerful then limit the buff not constant.

I do realize that everyone is powerful, and also that I want to see things internally balanced. If one feat is a nobrainer, due to eliminating a drain on the action economy and your daily resources, well... to paraphrase someone on this forum (I can't recall who)... "Aim for the level where it isn't so strong everyone wants to take it, but it isn't so weak no one will".

Thus, a feat that A) Removes an action from your combat set up, and 2) removes a (admittedly minor) drain on your SEP is... Well, a no-brainer.


I'm not saying everything based on damage. I only mentioned damage because con damage seemed to be why you all wanted to nerf blood. A specialist chooses to be stronger in ONE area and that's what it does. A water specialist means he'll only be using illusions and nothing else, he better get better at illusions because of it. Plus feats like multi-type now become unusable. So the unspecialized guy can get lots of abilities from more list, the specialist is limited to one. Next due to the limit of 1/3 level it means that a specialist is usually forced to take powers that nobody would want sometimes. You make a trade for two extra abilities ONCE and in exchange lose a lot more over the course of the rest of your levels. It's a trade off.

Except... Specialists still get access to Generic type abilities. Like, you know, stat boosts? And Change the Source? And Skillful?



It really wouldn't. The 'balance' exist because everyone is powerful. When I play D&D and I use my tier 3 or 4 class I feel weaker and useless compared to the tier 1 and 2. Bleach I've NEVER felt useless even as a non-damage dealer (my water character) because EVERYONE is Tier one.

And that's all well and good, but...

They aren't tier 1. Their probably about tier 2, tbh.

What I think you don't see is that I'm trying to figure a way to... well, remove options that get a "no duh, I'll take it" from people. I feel that it's a good idea to do so.


Anyway, Ginto. When? Where? I'm interested in seeing those.


ALSO, RE: Specialized: I was misreading the feat Looking at it now, it seems like a bad trade, unless you have a plan for it.

Binks
2011-09-13, 12:00 PM
maybe, but the focus for the shinigami is that the source of their power comes from their zankaputo, cutting out that for their kido means they can maintain a full set of other zankaputo powers as well as having epicly-powered casting, which will be rediculously overpowering - recreating the current fighter/wizard DnD effect, something this system has been trying to avoid so far

maybe if they give up their shinkai abilities to take those abilites as a feat, it's fairer, but both together is sickening - since you'd just take a protection/oppression zankaputo so you don't need to attack, then obliterate people with Kido stronger than other peoples attacks, whilst also being able to cripple other peoples stats, and being protected from harm.

Grab multiple-type (kido) and shikai ability twice. 3 feats and you can cast all kido as stan and all low level as swift. Without using up your normal shikai.

Alternatively, with the feat system, 2 feats for a subset of standard action kido and a smaller subset of low-level swift action kido. I don't see how that's broken.

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 12:56 PM
Hmm... The captain I'm going to be making for a game is going to be heavy on poison ability and assassination type. Any major changes going to be made to those two?

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 01:51 PM
Ginto: Up coming. Need to work out a system, and fill it up. It's Quincy Kido, in a sense.

Specialized: Not the best. It beats Expanded Release.. as it gives +2 abilities.. +4 when in Bankai. Going to add a few extra abilities you'll get as you level.

Assassination + Poison:
No major changes planned currently. One change was made to make the Assassin's Strike a poison effect. (Which, it was based on Soi Fon, so, don't complain! D:<)

Edit:
Plotting to make Specialized Zanpakuto only abilities, and Bankai only abilities.

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 01:55 PM
Well, you should know that this is the same captain I was going to make for a previous game involving you and DR. Don't know if you remember the kusari-gama guy....

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 01:59 PM
My memory is full of fail.

Major
2011-09-13, 03:07 PM
Once again, comments in bold.


Will be tweaking the level of this shortly. Next updates will be tweaking a few things.

Awesome, thanks! Looking for more bow attributes still. You'll see why in the near future.



My problem with master shot is that 20 is a pretty large portion of your max, even at level 20 it is about 1/4th of your max (without feats). It's not like Kido users ONLY use Kido. But either way is fine with me. It just doesn't seem that great, in my opinion.


Major- this has been spoilered to reduce size.


Yes, but that keeps a constant drain on resources that could otherwise be used to fuel different abilities. Hence, I think it's fair enough to be able to keep Shikai up for a long time like that. Limiting constant release... Well, the idea is

That's the whole reason to have constant release is to free up resources. The idea behind limiting constant release is that its not constant...

I know it isn't that big of a deal. But having a good number of buffs active at all times, plus magic items... Well, you know.

Thus why (if you took time to read my post) I suggested a change to the attribute boost NOT constant release. Make the attribute bonus the same type of bonus as magic items. Or clarify that it doesn't stack with items. Herp derp herp easy change.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! DC15 check to suppress your Shikai if you have Constant Release. Check it.

Alright, so you guys changed it at some point to completely remove the downside to constant release. That reflects more on you guys than on the system. The original system (and the pdf) mention that having shikai active eliminates the ability to suppress your reiatsu. Remove that clause you guys added for some reason. DC 15 to suppress reiatsu when you can't suppress it is a bit stupid. Especially since it renders THIS useless.

Suppression Mastery [Reiatsu]

Prerequisite: Suppress Reiatsu 10 ranks.
Benefit: When using the Suppress Reiatsu skill, utilizing Kido, Shikai, or any other ability (with the exception of Bankai) does not drop your Suppress Reiatsu. .

Remove the new DC 15 clause whichever of you added. Of course if you edit an ability to remove the downside it gets more powerful. That's called common sense. That would be like adding a rule that says a wizard can cast a spell without using the spell slot on a DC 15 spellcraft.


Yes, a Water specialist needs time to get ready. That's part of their schtick. Wow. How suprising. It also takes a move action to direct the illusion, but with Shunpo as a swift, that can safely be considered unimportant.

Even with constant release they take time to get ready. The only time they save is time to release the Shikai. They still have to turn invisible, create an illusion, direction an illusion, etc. Also, I don't think movement is the biggest problem a water specialist has...

As for who would say that...

Well, I know I would. Just to troll the party.

"I keep the illusion of you all being girls up for the next week. Yes, I'm not resting while I do it."

Ahhhh, so because you are a **** we limit the entire system. Alright well I could use assassination and mosquito bite to kill my party members one by one. Or I could use healing to get my team to make risk and then not heal them and watch them die. Do we force the healing type to auto-heal anyone who needs it?

Honestly, your example is weak anyways in that it has no impact really on power. Plus your teammates have the ability to kick you in the balls.


I do realize that everyone is powerful, and also that I want to see things internally balanced. If one feat is a nobrainer, due to eliminating a drain on the action economy and your daily resources, well... to paraphrase someone on this forum (I can't recall who)... "Aim for the level where it isn't so strong everyone wants to take it, but it isn't so weak no one will".

Thus, a feat that A) Removes an action from your combat set up, and 2) removes a (admittedly minor) drain on your SEP is... Well, a no-brainer.

Again, you guys removed the only weakness so you have only yourselves to blame. Remove the DC 15 clause and mention you can't suppress reiatsu. Plus I've played plenty of Bleach games and the feat was only taken by a small portion of the group. Sure, it's only personal experience, but the point remains. Making constant release still have to activate their abilities means it becomes useless. What is the point of constant release if you still have to release each fight?

Except... Specialists still get access to Generic type abilities. Like, you know, stat boosts? And Change the Source? And Skillful?

OH NO!!!!! THAT IS SO BROKEN!!! ZOMG WHAT WILL WE DO? (this is sarcasm). Everyone gets access to Generic. Most people rarely take it. Stat boost really aren't as important as you seem to think. Most the type abilities are simply better options to spend your points on. Next, I'll point out that a specialist has one school (two if you count generic) vs a non-specialist who has two (three if you count generic) AND an extra feat (such as multi-type thus allowed even more types). Most combos get broken by mixing types, not by mixing generic. Name one type that gets worse by having multiple type options instead of just one?

Constant release I can at least acknowledge and see your point on thinking it is too good. But Specialized Shikai being overpowered is a stupid claim. To the contrary I'd argue it sucks. Of all the games I've played I've seen ONE specialist. Do you know why? Because nobody wants to make a permanent sacrifice for one level of extra abilities. Thus why AShadowOfLife has accurately suggested a power boost as opposed to a depowering.

I'll use your logic. You say you want it to not be so good that everyone takes it, but not so bad nobody will. In our current game how many people took specialist?

And that's all well and good, but...

They aren't tier 1. Their probably about tier 2, tbh.

What I think you don't see is that I'm trying to figure a way to... well, remove options that get a "no duh, I'll take it" from people. I feel that it's a good idea to do so.

Specialized is in no way a "no duh". Because it usually isn't worth it. Only a few builds actually use it. I point out my prior comment of how many people took specialist. As for constant release, I think you would hurt a lot more than you'd help by trying to make it "Not-Constant Release".

On a side note to help my point I looked at all eleven of the submitted sheets for the current game. Only four have constant release. Just saying...

It's actually NOT as powerful as you seem to think. Shikai is REALLY cheap to put up and last a good amount of time. Most people would rather have extend shikai, multi-type, or some other feat since releasing it and keeping it up, really isn't that big a deal. It cost one of your feats that MUST be taken at exactly third level and eventually at higher levels you have so much SEP that a pathetic amount like 1 SEP for 1 minute/level. Then its a minor 2SEP to keep it up longer. That is WITHOUT taking classes that lower the SEP cost. Any class with the lowered SEP cost could release for 1SEP (Rounds up sadly) and then 1SEP per minute. Compare that to high level SEP count.

Even at just level 10 and a roll of 1 you have 19SEP without bonuses. Since most DMs use the 1d6+2 rule that means you have 27 SEP. If you have the average amount you have between 115 and 132 without feats to make it more.

So constant release guy is saying "I HAVE MINE UP ALL DAY!" And you are laughing at him and going "That's nice, I could if I wanted, and I got an extra feat."

Skip to level 20. If by level 20 you don't have a class that lowers SEP cost, something is wrong. But even without it a 4 ranking would have 343 SEP not counting bonus SEP. An 8 ranking would have 940. Yaaaah...I don't think keeping Shikai up will be a problem.

And you might argue its extra resources spent, but I'll point out that good players won't come anywhere close to running out of SEP. Just like a good Wizard doesn't run out of spell slots.

The inexperienced players who hate book keeping however might like constant release and not having to worry about "Am I released? What action? How much SEP? So I have how much? Etc."

Even a Kido user probably wouldn't care since he'd be using most his turns casting Kido, NOT using his shikai. Plus his casting stat would be higher, thus bonus SEP up the ass



Anyway, Ginto. When? Where? I'm interested in seeing those.


ALSO, RE: Specialized: I was misreading the feat Looking at it now, it seems like a bad trade, unless you have a plan for it.

Yes, it is a bad trade. Glad you agree and I can stop wasting time arguing about that. I'll admit constant release is questionable (still don't think it i broken), but specialized is in no way broken.

Major
2011-09-13, 03:09 PM
Ginto: Up coming. Need to work out a system, and fill it up. It's Quincy Kido, in a sense.

Specialized: Not the best. It beats Expanded Release.. as it gives +2 abilities.. +4 when in Bankai. Going to add a few extra abilities you'll get as you level.

Assassination + Poison:
No major changes planned currently. One change was made to make the Assassin's Strike a poison effect. (Which, it was based on Soi Fon, so, don't complain! D:<)

Edit:
Plotting to make Specialized Zanpakuto only abilities, and Bankai only abilities.

Specialized only abilities could be nice...but with the current power level already being high I'd think specialized would be rough to do. And we have Bankai only abilities? Unless you mean specialized bankai or Bankai only Shikai abilities.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 03:44 PM
I hate server errors, they delete my overly long posts ,

so, constant release analysis:
benefit: no use of a move action to activate the sword, no cost of 1 SEP (pittance) and no use of extra SEP to continue - however, this renewal comes after a number of rounds equal to the shinigami's level * 10, with a minimum of 30
cost: 1 feat*

now, unless your origional SEP roll is like 1 or 2, the cost probably isn't much - I don't know of many combats that take more that 30 rounds, and I've never heard of one that takes more than 60, though my DnD experiance is limited, so ever at 3rd level it won't be hard to maintain unless your fighting someone who's primary focus is disarming the shinigami they'll still get the benefit. so the real cost is exchanging the use of a move action for a feat.

*in a setting where feats can be used to buy cleass features such as evasion, rage, or sneak attack

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 03:48 PM
I hate server errors, they delete my overly long posts ,

so, constant release analysis:
benefit: no use of a move action to activate the sword, no cost of 1 SEP (pittance) and no use of extra SEP to continue - however, this renewal comes after a number of rounds equal to the shinigami's level * 10, with a minimum of 30
cost: 1 feat*

now, unless your origional SEP roll is like 1 or 2, the cost probably isn't much - I don't know of many combats that take more that 30 rounds, and I've never heard of one that takes more than 60, though my DnD experiance is limited, so ever at 3rd level it won't be hard to maintain unless your fighting someone who's primary focus is disarming the shinigami they'll still get the benefit. so the real cost is exchanging the use of a move action for a feat.

*in a setting where feats can be used to buy cleass features such as evasion, rage, or sneak attack

Sealed+Constant release

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 03:55 PM
sorry for double post, but trying to analysis seperate from questions.

Hollow question: does a hollow paragon have the hollow template and thus the hollow ability progression for hit dice? if not, I'd heavily recomend swapping feat progression and hollow abillity progression, as a 20th level hollow paragon has 8 hollow abilities (as long as they waited to become an arrancar) whereas a 10 hd hollow NPC has 10 - which is unfair on the supposedly super hollow :smallbiggrin:

also, asking again about arrancar zankaputo's: are you sure it's a good idea to give them much higher damage that a shinigami, as well as the same number of shinkai abilities, alongside their other abilities when compared to a shinigami?

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 04:17 PM
That's the whole reason to have constant release is to free up resources. The idea behind limiting constant release is that its not constant...

... Sorry, I can't quite parse this. Mind rephrasing it?


Thus why (if you took time to read my post) I suggested a change to the attribute boost NOT constant release. Make the attribute bonus the same type of bonus as magic items. Or clarify that it doesn't stack with items. Herp derp herp easy change.

Except the majority of my reasons for wanting to nerf Constant release a bit involve other special abilities. Like Darkvision (see through magical darkness) and so on.


Alright, so you guys changed it at some point to completely remove the downside to constant release. That reflects more on you guys than on the system. The original system (and the pdf) mention that having shikai active eliminates the ability to suppress your reiatsu. Remove that clause you guys added for some reason. DC 15 to suppress reiatsu when you can't suppress it is a bit stupid. Especially since it renders THIS useless.


Suppression Mastery [Reiatsu]

Prerequisite: Suppress Reiatsu 10 ranks.
Benefit: When using the Suppress Reiatsu skill, utilizing Kido, Shikai, or any other ability (with the exception of Bankai) does not drop your Suppress Reiatsu.

.

Remove the new DC 15 clause whichever of you added. Of course if you edit an ability to remove the downside it gets more powerful. That's called common sense. That would be like adding a rule that says a wizard can cast a spell without using the spell slot on a DC 15 spellcraft.

...

I did not check on that edit history before I mention that...

Nera, mind explaining why to us?



Even with constant release they take time to get ready. The only time they save is time to release the Shikai. They still have to turn invisible, create an illusion, direction an illusion, etc. Also, I don't think movement is the biggest problem a water specialist has...


Ahhhh, so because you are a **** we limit the entire system. Alright well I could use assassination and mosquito bite to kill my party members one by one. Or I could use healing to get my team to make risk and then not heal them and watch them die. Do we force the healing type to auto-heal anyone who needs it?

Honestly, your example is weak anyways in that it has no impact really on power. Plus your teammates have the ability to kick you in the balls.

....What? I'm pointing out that there are those who will keep effects up all the time to mess with people, and...


Again, you guys removed the only weakness so you have only yourselves to blame. Remove the DC 15 clause and mention you can't suppress reiatsu. Plus I've played plenty of Bleach games and the feat was only taken by a small portion of the group. Sure, it's only personal experience, but the point remains. Making constant release still have to activate their abilities means it becomes useless. What is the point of constant release if you still have to release each fight?

Except... You don't. You only have to activate your buffs, but you can immediately start chucking spirit blasts everywhere, or drop an illusion over your foe, or create a sphere of darkness. Also, I was not a party to that edit, so... Yeah, no.


OH NO!!!!! THAT IS SO BROKEN!!! ZOMG WHAT WILL WE DO? (this is sarcasm). Everyone gets access to Generic. Most people rarely take it. Stat boost really aren't as important as you seem to think. Most the type abilities are simply better options to spend your points on. Next, I'll point out that a specialist has one school (two if you count generic) vs a non-specialist who has two (three if you count generic) AND an extra feat (such as multi-type thus allowed even more types). Most combos get broken by mixing types, not by mixing generic. Name one type that gets worse by having multiple type options instead of just one?

Not a one. However, think about what generic can do- you dismiss stat bonuses, but don't say anything about skill bonuses or, you know, Change the Source?


Constant release I can at least acknowledge and see your point on thinking it is too good. But Specialized Shikai being overpowered is a stupid claim. To the contrary I'd argue it sucks. Of all the games I've played I've seen ONE specialist. Do you know why? Because nobody wants to make a permanent sacrifice for one level of extra abilities. Thus why AShadowOfLife has accurately suggested a power boost as opposed to a depowering.

Listen very carefully. I said nothing about Specialized Shikai in that. I was talking about Constant Release. Two posts before this I agreed that Specialized was weak.


I'll use your logic. You say you want it to not be so good that everyone takes it, but not so bad nobody will. In our current game how many people took specialist?

Specialized is in no way a "no duh". Because it usually isn't worth it. Only a few builds actually use it. I point out my prior comment of how many people took specialist. As for constant release, I think you would hurt a lot more than you'd help by trying to make it "Not-Constant Release".



Except... It is. It's "No duh, I won't take this". Further, I'm making suggestions about how to fix Constant Release.


On a side note to help my point I looked at all eleven of the submitted sheets for the current game. Only four have constant release. Just saying...

I'd kinda like to know how you looked at the two sheets that got [REDACTED], if you saw all 11 of them.


It's actually NOT as powerful as you seem to think. Shikai is REALLY cheap to put up and last a good amount of time. Most people would rather have extend shikai, multi-type, or some other feat since releasing it and keeping it up, really isn't that big a deal. It cost one of your feats that MUST be taken at exactly third level and eventually at higher levels you have so much SEP that a pathetic amount like 1 SEP for 1 minute/level. Then its a minor 2SEP to keep it up longer. That is WITHOUT taking classes that lower the SEP cost. Any class with the lowered SEP cost could release for 1SEP (Rounds up sadly) and then 1SEP per minute. Compare that to high level SEP count.

Wait, the high level SEP count for people who are above average? My word.


Even at just level 10 and a roll of 1 you have 19SEP without bonuses. Since most DMs use the 1d6+2 rule that means you have 27 SEP. If you have the average amount you have between 115 and 132 without feats to make it more.

So constant release guy is saying "I HAVE MINE UP ALL DAY!" And you are laughing at him and going "That's nice, I could if I wanted, and I got an extra feat."

Right up to the point where, you know, they find themselves fighting for a week and a half without a chance to rest and the Constant Release guy is laughing at the other one when he runs out of power.


Skip to level 20. If by level 20 you don't have a class that lowers SEP cost, something is wrong. But even without it a 4 ranking would have 343 SEP not counting bonus SEP. An 8 ranking would have 940. Yaaaah...I don't think keeping Shikai up will be a problem.

And you might argue its extra resources spent, but I'll point out that good players won't come anywhere close to running out of SEP. Just like a good Wizard doesn't run out of spell slots.

Other than, you know, when they wind up invading somewhere with no safe place to rest and having to deal with a long string of fights.

Furthermore, most games won't be anywhere near level 20- they'll be somewhere in the low/mid levels, not near the high.


The inexperienced players who hate book keeping however might like constant release and not having to worry about "Am I released? What action? How much SEP? So I have how much? Etc."

Even a Kido user probably wouldn't care since he'd be using most his turns casting Kido, NOT using his shikai. Plus his casting stat would be higher, thus bonus SEP up the ass

Yes, yes. Besides, the Shikai would make his casting of Kido better.

Wait, what bonus SEP?

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 04:33 PM
On a side note to help my point I looked at all eleven of the submitted sheets for the current game. Only four have constant release. Just saying...

You can only see 9 of the sheets. 2 of the sheets that you CAN see, don't have shinigami levels so can't take that feat. Which makes constant release something a majority of characters have.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 04:44 PM
Can't say I've ever taken Constant Release. I've always seen it as a waste of feat slots, due to the cheap cost of Shikai Release. What does constant release really do? It cuts back slightly on Shikai cost, it also means your buffs are up before the ambush.

Bonus SEP does not exist, yet. It might in the future, but! I am revamping the SEP system to only 4 categories, and less SP. Due to the insane amounts of SP one can have with the right build.. I forget the number, but it was quite high on the 1 for 5 ratio. I in fact, already have the revamped chart, just not revamped costs.

As for Specialized Shikai powers I mean: Shikai powers that only those who specialize, can take. Will they be stronger? Not necessarily.

As for Specialized Bankai things.. I mean.. Shikai Type powers that can only be taken for your Bankai Release.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 04:45 PM
Sealed+Constant release


Your Zanpakutou damage is appropriate for a weapon of its category and doesn't progress in level. You can't access either Shikai or Bankai special abilities
I'm assuming that means you have none, not you just can't activate them, especially considering the wording of released:

You immediately gain the full use of Zanpakutou damage, Shikai and eventually Bankai abilities for a character of your level
which implies you didn't have it before.

also, a few ideas for some extra fullbringer abilities, based more around being unique and intresting rather than directly effective, and one or two just for fun...:

[B]flight:
your fullbring either allows you to levitate and move freely in the air, or manifests a large pair of wings that allow you to fly
you gain a flight speed equal to your base ground speed, with good manoverability, so long as you are not carrying more than light encumberance. this ability may be taked multiple times, each time increasing the flight speed by 10 yeards and manouverability by one step. if your manouverability is already perfect, then flight speed is increaced by + 20 yards

memory adaptation
The fullbring is capable of reaching into the victim's mind and altering their memory to suit the wilder's desire
After landing two or more sucesfull hits on an opponent, the full-bringer may elect to cause no damage, and isnetad attempt to use this ability. this functions like the charm person spell with a caster level equal to 1/2 of the fullbringer's level.

Extra limbs
The fullbring manifests with a pair of extra limbs under the control of the fullbringer
prequisites: dexterity 13
As long as the fullbring is active, the fullbringer has an aditional pair of limbs - they have one main hand, and the other arms are off hands.

Vanishing
the fullbringer is capable of using his fullbring to vanish from sight
prequisites: hide rank 6, move silently rank 6
The fullbringer may use a full round action to become invisable, as the spell, with a caster level and duration equal to 1/2 of the fullbringer's level. this may be taken multiple times, increasing the duration by another 1/2 fullbringer level each time.

improved Vanishing
The fullbringer is capable of vanishing even from the sigh of the most astute
Prequities: 2 ranks of vanishing (see above), 12 ranks hide, 12 ranks move silently.
When using their vanishing ability, the fullbringer gains greater invisability as opposed to invisability.

Greater vanishing
the fullbringer can not only vanish from sight, but is also capable of pashing through solid objects
Prequisites: improved vanishing
the fullbringer can go intangable when using vanishing instead of invisible.

Spell like ability
the fullbring is able to manifest abilities like magic
The fullbringer gains a spell-like ability usable twice/day. They can gain any spell as a spell-like ability that a Kido Shinigami of an equivalent level can cast (1st level spells at 1st level, 2nd level spells at 3 level, and so on). This ability may be taken multiple times, each time gives them an additional two uses of an existing spelllike ability per day or gives them access to another spell-like ability.

enhanced awareness
The fullbring gives it's wearer an early warning of danger
The fullbringer may choose one ability from each of the following lists, which they benefit from as long as they maintain their fullbring.
list one: Darkvision 30 ft, scent, termorsense 20 ft, deathwatch
list two: Evasion, Improved evasion (requires evasion) Uncanny dodge, Improved uncanny dodge (requires uncanny dodge)

Healing touch
The fullbringer is capable of healing their allies with a touch
the fullbringer gains access to the lay on hands class feature (see paladin). this ability may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the amount that can be healed by 50%

Healing surge
The fullbringer can restore their allies vitality so long as they stay close
Prequisits: lay on hands or ability to cast cure moderate wounds from any source
the fullbringer's lay on hands ability becomes a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 yards. the range of your cure spells is increased by 10 yards. In adition, whenever the Fullbringer is healed, they can instead choose to pass this healing on to any ally in 30 yards, or split it between all allies within 20 yards.

Barrier Shield
The fullbringer is able to extend their shield to allies
prequisites: Enhanced shield
The fullbringer can extend 1/2 their AC bonus from their shield to all allies within 10 yards. this is a move action, and lasts as long as the fullbring. this ability can be taken multiple times, increasing it's range by 10 yards each time

Barrier Armour
The fullbringer is able to extend their Armour to allies
prequisites: Enhanced Armour
The fullbringer can extend 1/2 their AC bonus from their Armour to all allies within 10 yards. this is a move action, and lasts as long as the fullbring. this ability can be taken multiple times, increasing it's range by 10 yards each time

Inspiring visage
The fullbring exudes an aura that bolsters the resolve of all nearby allies
all allies within 10 yards of the fullbringer gain a + 4 morale bonus against fear effects, and a + 1 morale bonus on all attack rolls. this ability can be taken multiple times, increasing either the range or the effect

tada, stuff...

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 04:54 PM
Except the majority of my reasons for wanting to nerf Constant release a bit involve other special abilities. Like Darkvision (see through magical darkness) and so on.

But a shinigami can release their sword at any time, not just in combat, if they encounter magical darnkess (and, a cautions one probably would when they magically loose the ability to see)

Wait, what bonus SEP?

Greater Spiritual Energy [Reiatsu]

Prerequisite: Level 12, Improved Spiritual Energy, Base SEP 7 or less.
Benefit: Your Spiritual Energy pool is treated as though it was increased by 1 progression step. If your progression step is 8 before taking this feat, then you gain an additional 25% of your points, rounding down.
Special: This feat stacks with Improved Spiritual Energy.

Improved Spiritual Energy [Reiatsu]

Benefit: Your Spiritual Energy pool is treated as though it was increased by 1 progression step. If your progression step is 8 before taking this feat, then you gain an additional 25% of your points, rounding down.

see, there be feats to boost your SEPness if you wants to :smallbiggrin:

@ binks: I misinterpeted your origional post - I thought you meant make all of the kido sword abilites infor feats, not just the speed based ones. sorry for the misintepret

Major
2011-09-13, 04:55 PM
... Sorry, I can't quite parse this. Mind rephrasing it?

It was sarcasm on the point of making constant release not constant defeats the point/

Except the majority of my reasons for wanting to nerf Constant release a bit involve other special abilities. Like Darkvision (see through magical darkness) and so on.

Darkvision REALLY isn't that big a buff. Its a racial trait. Honestly, this is a system where feats by class features (sneak attack, rage, etc) Also, like mentioned above one can just activate it when they see magic darkness.
...

I did not check on that edit history before I mention that...

Nera, mind explaining why to us?

Alright, so it wasn't you. And it was a bad change. At least we can acknowledge that and re-add it.


....What? I'm pointing out that there are those who will keep effects up all the time to mess with people, and...

And most the effects really aren't that big a deal. You keep an illusion up and have to spend the time focusing on it. The second combat starts or you need another illusion you have to pick a new one. You realize you only get ONE illusion per mirage. If you are taking mirage multiple times just to make your party girls you are a retard and will find other dumb **** to do.

Except... You don't. You only have to activate your buffs, but you can immediately start chucking spirit blasts everywhere, or drop an illusion over your foe, or create a sphere of darkness. Also, I was not a party to that edit, so... Yeah, no.

Except the only thing it cost you is a single move action. Most abilities aren't move actions. So you shikai as a move action, and you use swift and standard to use most your abilities. (illusions, spirit blast, etc). The only thing constant release saves you is a move action. (And you yourself point out Shunpo is a swift thus eliminating that much waste)

Not a one. However, think about what generic can do- you dismiss stat bonuses, but don't say anything about skill bonuses or, you know, Change the Source?

Sorry, I didn't realize change the source was that big a deal since its just weapon finesse for any stat but damage also. It cost one of your abilities and usually won't be THAT big a deal. Plus it doesn't change the fact that constant release vs regular release isn't that big a deal. You spend a move action and are fully buffed vs no move action. Big deal.

Listen very carefully. I said nothing about Specialized Shikai in that. I was talking about Constant Release. Two posts before this I agreed that Specialized was weak.

Actually you did mention specialized, but I'll drop that since you are no longer trying to make specialized nerfed, thus we can discuss constant release and try and work out something both sides agree on.

Except... It is. It's "No duh, I won't take this". Further, I'm making suggestions about how to fix Constant Release.

I disagree. There are...well, were until the edit, reasons to not take it. Plus the reason to not take it is better feats like Extend shikai, class feature feats, etc

I'd kinda like to know how you looked at the two sheets that got [REDACTED], if you saw all 11 of them.

I didn't. Newer post have character sheets that haven't been added yet. Thus 9 on the first page and two over the last couple pages.

Wait, the high level SEP count for people who are above average? My word.

What? I was pointing out that SEP cost very little. 1 SEP to activate and 2SEP to keep up is a pathetic and minor amount that isn't even really worth mentioning. The cost of the SEP isn't the issue. The only thing of any significance it cost to activate shikai is a move action and you can shunpo as a swift thus saving that move action if you REALLY have to move for some reason.

Right up to the point where, you know, they find themselves fighting for a week and a half without a chance to rest and the Constant Release guy is laughing at the other one when he runs out of power.
If you are fighting for a week and a half straight you have much bigger problems to deal with than SEP. Like HP, or exhaustion. How often do you really fight for one whole week and not get any rest? You must have some sick DMs who are intentionally TRYING to screw the players.

And even still, what you are saying is that in some VERY rare situation taking a feat helps you? So the feat is actually useful!?!?! No way! I've already pointed out the SEP and move action are trivial and not that big a deal. As such the feat needs to have some use. You are spending a feat slot that could be spent elsewhere. feats are supposed to give you benefits.

Other than, you know, when they wind up invading somewhere with no safe place to rest and having to deal with a long string of fights.

At least that is a little more common. Though I will argue most people are still able to get some sleep and recover. If you are unable to recover for weeks on end and run out of SEP I'm surprised you aren't out of HP. Very rare case once again and one of the few situations where constant release is valuable. But it is so rare. That is like saying that a fighter is stronger because your DM might place an entire anti-magic field on the entire world.

Furthermore, most games won't be anywhere near level 20- they'll be somewhere in the low/mid levels, not near the high.

Ok, and I mentioned it at mid levels as well as high. I pointed out mid was easy and high levels its a complete and total waste.

Yes, yes. Besides, the Shikai would make his casting of Kido better.

Ok? So he spends a feat to get better at hat he does. I thought that was the point.

Wait, what bonus SEP?
It uses the psionic system which gives you bonus points based on level and the casting stat. It could be that every DM I've had was wrong, but I was under the impression you got bonus SEP based on level and stat. Again, I could be wrong about that.

Ignore that, I was mistaken and got ninja'd. But the 25% boost would count also.


Can't say I've ever taken Constant Release. I've always seen it as a waste of feat slots, due to the cheap cost of Shikai Release. What does constant release really do? It cuts back slightly on Shikai cost, it also means your buffs are up before the ambush.

AShadowOfLife is right. As cheap as Shikai is really the only thing constant release does is means that you won't have to worry about the ambush round. Its the uncanny dodge of Bleach.



Bonus SEP does not exist, yet. It might in the future, but! I am revamping the SEP system to only 4 categories, and less SP. Due to the insane amounts of SP one can have with the right build.. I forget the number, but it was quite high on the 1 for 5 ratio. I in fact, already have the revamped chart, just not revamped costs.
Ummm, I hope only at higher levels? Lowering it too much will mean low levels that get screwed and only get a 1 or 2 won't be able to use anything until higher levels.

Edit: Oh, you said only 4 categories. Hmmm....seems iffy, but I'll wait to see. Plus having super high SEP shouldn't really be that big a deal in my opinion. Before the action dice were added it wasn't going to be used that much anyways.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 05:02 PM
Major: I apologize. At the time of posting that last one, it was late and I was frustrated. Too many people not being quiet. I'm in favor of keeping the system too, and I'm not real sure where I was coming from there...

TMK: The complete rule from the SEP Rules, where I pulled that:


Anyone who starts with or obtains the Insane SEP progression gains the Constant Release feat. Those with the Suppress Reiatsu can suppress their Shikai with a DC 15 check, and may release it as a free action.

Major
2011-09-13, 05:05 PM
Major: I apologize. At the time of posting that last one, it was late and I was frustrated. Too many people not being quiet. I'm in favor of keeping the system too, and I'm not real sure where I was coming from there...

TMK: The complete rule from the SEP Rules, where I pulled that:

No worries. I just wanted to point out I was for keeping it not changing.

Huh...where is that rule O.o if that's legit I get a free feat to go spend.

Still seems a bit icky though. I mean I thought that it said somewhere (couldn't remember where) that you could seal your shikai but it cost SEP to do so (reverse of unsealing), but didn't know you could auto-do it with suppress...

That makes it better I suppose, but I still disagree with how bad it is due to the trivial amount it cost to activate shikai. Thus the biggest benefit constant gets is starting with buffs up if ambushed.

Still it seems to clash with the feat which says "You can never seal"

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 05:09 PM
Major: It's in a list of rules that I've been implementing. DR sent me the link to it directly so that I can update the SEP system, but that was before ASoL jumped back in. As of right now, I can't actually remember where I posted it, so I can't check if it was removed, but if I can, I'm putting it back in there before ASoL revamps the system. Speaking of which...

AShadowofLife: Mind if I send you a PM about that SEP system revamp?

Edit: Major, that tiny rules errata said suppress, not seal. It doesn't seal your Shikai, just suppresses your Reiatsu. They can still see your Shikai, and you can still use it, but they can track your Reiatsu anymore.

Major
2011-09-13, 05:17 PM
Major: It's in a list of rules that I've been implementing. DR sent me the link to it directly so that I can update the SEP system, but that was before ASoL jumped back in. As of right now, I can't actually remember where I posted it, so I can't check if it was removed, but if I can, I'm putting it back in there before ASoL revamps the system. Speaking of which...

AShadowofLife: Mind if I send you a PM about that SEP system revamp?

Edit: Major, that tiny rules errata said suppress, not seal. It doesn't seal your Shikai, just suppresses your Reiatsu. They can still see your Shikai, and you can still use it, but they can track your Reiatsu anymore.

Sorry if this is a double post, Giantitp forums is acting up. On one hand it SAYS I'm the newest post, but I can't see my post.

I see. Seem a bit iffy as it eliminates a big downside. But then again, I'm of the opinion that it really isn't that powerful since all it does is means you are stronger during the ambush round. (like I compared to it earlier being uncanny dodge).

On a side note, let me know if that is a legit rule and is added somewhere. If so I get an extra feat in DR's game.

Again, sorry if this is a double post I'll delete the old one.

If that rule is added what is the point of the feat


Suppression Mastery [Reiatsu]

Prerequisite: Suppress Reiatsu 10 ranks.
Benefit: When using the Suppress Reiatsu skill, utilizing Kido, Shikai, or any other ability (with the exception of Bankai) does not drop your Suppress Reiatsu.

Edit: Deleted the double post. It started working =_=

Shadow Lord
2011-09-13, 05:25 PM
Not to be rude, but would it be possible for the general public to see the revised Spiritual Energy System? Just for balance concerns and such, y'know?

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 05:28 PM
Shadow Lord: Not rude at all. The only reason I cited it in the first place is that I can no longer find it on the wiki.

Major: I'm not going to say you do get an extra feat, or deny you one, but I am going to say that this rule is only valid if you begin with progression level 8 (Insane). That being said, I'm also curious as to what ASoL will be doing with the SEP system...

Silva Stormrage
2011-09-13, 05:56 PM
One thing to note is that I can't seem to see the wind type zanpakto's shikai abilities on the wiki. Is anyone else having this problem?

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 05:59 PM
They haven't been uploaded yet, since... Well, people kept whining about how Specialized is weak, and didn't comment on them. I'll get them up in a little bit.

Major
2011-09-13, 06:06 PM
Shadow Lord: Not rude at all. The only reason I cited it in the first place is that I can no longer find it on the wiki.

Major: I'm not going to say you do get an extra feat, or deny you one, but I am going to say that this rule is only valid if you begin with progression level 8 (Insane). That being said, I'm also curious as to what ASoL will be doing with the SEP system...

Started with 8. Kinda. I rolled 8, traded it for a 4, then traded my 4 for a 7. Then I took the feat at creation to boost it to 8. And I know you don't decide, but if that is a rule that means I get it :P


One thing to note is that I can't seem to see the wind type zanpakto's shikai abilities on the wiki. Is anyone else having this problem?

Its on the pdf.


They haven't been uploaded yet, since... Well, people kept whining about how Specialized is weak, and didn't comment on them. I'll get them up in a little bit.

Wait...they were posted somewhere? I'd comment on them, but I've not seen it.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 06:10 PM
I may or may not revamp the system.. I have contemplated adding in SP costs for certain types of shikai powers, to help balance things, as that was my original intention for the SEP system. So that you couldn't blast away for 6 weeks, automatically. >> <<

Go ahead and PM about the revamp.

Also, the DC 15 check was implemented because -someone- wanted there to be a way to conceal it. *Cough cough* I think it was DR *Cough cough* but my memory sucks about things several months ago.

Major
2011-09-13, 06:18 PM
I may or may not revamp the system.. I have contemplated adding in SP costs for certain types of shikai powers, to help balance things, as that was my original intention for the SEP system. So that you couldn't blast away for 6 weeks, automatically. >> <<

Go ahead and PM about the revamp.

Also, the DC 15 check was implemented because -someone- wanted there to be a way to conceal it. *Cough cough* I think it was DR *Cough cough* but my memory sucks about things several months ago.

Makes sense. He did add the charisma option to blood just so his vampire could use it :P

On a side note I looked at force and I gotta say... WHAT?

It gains the healing of ice/fire. Damage that is resisted by almost nothing. Ability to easily render a target immobile. Better DR than any other DR granting ability. (Even Barrier). The ability to redirect damage back.

It's basically barrier, but better along with aggressive abilities and a few healing abilities. I realize Bleach is OP, but force just made Barrier almost useless. AC Boost being the only thing barrier gets. Barrier only gets DR 2, can't redirect, and now force also gets the walls.

Mind isn't too broken, but it seems to get more abilities than any other school. It seems the most customizable. Not as big a deal.

Plant seems rather cool. It is however the only Shikai to require another type to use its ability. But it is a cool ability.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 06:28 PM
force seems a bit overpowering:

force blade: this works the same as wind's wind blade, but instead of reducing the damage by 1 step it instead makes it ignore protection.

pressure blade: all of the other surround abilities do 2d4, which is quite a nice bonus. no reason for force to get 2d6 forget that it's been changed on others too...

deep pressure: maybe apply it to the item thay's hit, not directly to the person hit, as as it stands, one hit on anyone and they're going to be well into medium encumberance without even carying anything. to keep an effect, maybe make it count like they're using a weapon of 1 size cat up but only for penalties (eg - 2 per hit)

force armour: every other dr is 2 per use, even the ones from other diciplines, this is 1/2 your level. far to overpowering.

healing ability; I don;t think force should have every ability ever, so please drop this

that discipline is a no brainer as it stands, as it's far to powerfull

edit: if you're changing them, it'd be pertinent to change the summon ability to have a cooldown/limit of uses, as right now it's very, very powerful since you can spam-summon it

Major
2011-09-13, 06:29 PM
force seems a bit overpowering:

force blade: this works the same as wind's wind blade, but instead of reducing the damage by 1 step it instead makes it ignore protection.

pressure blade: all of the other surround abilities do 2d4, which is quite a nice bonus. no reason for force to get 2d6 forget that it's been changed on others too...

deep pressure: maybe apply it to the item thay's hit, not directly to the person hit, as as it stands, one hit on anyone and they're going to be well into medium encumberance without even carying anything. to keep an effect, maybe make it count like they're using a weapon of 1 size cat up but only for penalties (eg - 2 per hit)

force armour: every other dr is 2 per use, even the ones from other diciplines, this is 1/2 your level. far to overpowering.

healing ability; I don;t think force should have every ability ever, so please drop this

that discipline is a no brainer as it stands, as it's far to powerfull

Especially when you realize all that is force. Thus meaning little blocks or resist it. It's basically lots of other types combined and powered up and on top of that with zero resistance.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 06:30 PM
I think that Force is superfluous, and should go. As for Wind abilities, yep. About a page or two ago.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 06:32 PM
Force was meant to be removed from my file, but DR added stuff before I could tell him such.. heh.

In addition, prepare for Time, Space, and Games, and Gravity types, thanks to D20 Classless protect head.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 06:32 PM
Major: Just realized that about Plant. I may change some of that around, given DR's and ASoL's permission. Thus far, my job has been to plug missing things in, but I would like to get into fixing things up soon.

And, looking through Barrier and Force types, I'm rather certain that the focus of Barrier is your defensive abilities, while Force can be thought of as a 'Combat Oriented Generic' Type. Some offense, some defense, but not much else. Also, the DR from Barrier Type cannot be overcome by Force Type.

Oh. Well, I see, ASoL.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 06:38 PM
I may or may not revamp the system.. I have contemplated adding in SP costs for certain types of shikai powers, to help balance things, as that was my original intention for the SEP system. So that you couldn't blast away for 6 weeks, automatically. >> <<

I also support this. Throughly.



As for revamping SEP...


Mind posting that here? That way we can look it over and discuss it.


Thinking about it, I kinda feel like we need to remove the top two levels of SE, and make them only accessable via feat, but I'm not sure...

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 06:45 PM
This was a projected possibility.
Renamed to Spirit Points for SEP, so now can just call it SP <<

Spiritual Energy Progression;
Level Below Average Average Above Average High
1 0 0 2 2
2 0 1 6 7
3 0 2 11 14
4 1 6 17 22
5 2 11 25 32
6 6 17 35 46
7 11 25 46 61
8 17 35 58 77
9 25 46 72 95
10 35 58 88 115
11 46 72 106 141
12 58 88 126 169
13 72 106 147 198
14 88 126 170 229
15 106 147 195 262
16 126 170 221 300
17 147 195 250 341
18 170 221 280 383
19 195 250 311 426
20 221 280 343 470

Bonus SP: (Kido casting stat modifier x level) + (Constitution modifier x level)

Major
2011-09-13, 06:50 PM
This was a projected possibility.
Renamed to Spirit Points for SEP, so now can just call it SP <<

Spiritual Energy Progression;
Level Below Average Average Above Average High
1 0 0 2 2
2 0 1 6 7
3 0 2 11 14
4 1 6 17 22
5 2 11 25 32
6 6 17 35 46
7 11 25 46 61
8 17 35 58 77
9 25 46 72 95
10 35 58 88 115
11 46 72 106 141
12 58 88 126 169
13 72 106 147 198
14 88 126 170 229
15 106 147 195 262
16 126 170 221 300
17 147 195 250 341
18 170 221 280 383
19 195 250 311 426
20 221 280 343 470

Bonus SP: (Kido casting stat modifier x level) + (Constitution modifier x level)


So it cuts off the top three, and strengthens the bottom two?

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 06:54 PM
It goes from 8 categories to 4. >>

Shadow Lord
2011-09-13, 06:54 PM
I'm gonna be completely honest; I don't like it. I can't exactly express why I don't like it, but I don't.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 06:58 PM
I rather like it. Then again, it matters less to me since I'll be playing the Dedicated Warrior Feature. And, regardless of your progression, you'll be getting bonus SP every level.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 07:02 PM
I kinda agree with shadowlord - I feel the current system is better. this way you really get punished for wanting to play a character who excells at kido, which I dislike the idea of even if the character dosen;t appeal to me

never mind, just noticed the bonuses option, which makes it a bit fairer. though, tbh, you could just give everyone one progression, and then add in feats to increase the points per level/spiritual density of the caster, as with zankaputo abilties potentially costing points now* your character could be rendered impotent by rolling a 1 here.

also, is the action point thing going to be changed, as as it stands the rules say it's 1 sep for that bonus to the roll, which is very strong for the ammount

*which they should, as it'd help balance it out

Major
2011-09-13, 07:04 PM
I'm gonna be completely honest; I don't like it. I can't exactly express why I don't like it, but I don't.


I kinda agree with shadowlord - I feel the current system is better. this way you really get punished for wanting to play a character who excells at kido, which I dislike the idea of even if the character dosen;t appeal to me

^This. I've not played a Kido user so I don't know. But this.

Also, I was under the impression that bonus was once or total not every level? Otherwise the bonus could get pretty nice with even a decent con and wis.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 07:04 PM
Well, right now, this is running of a modified version of columns 2, 3, 4, and 5. What if we used the columns 3, 4, 5, and 6?

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 07:08 PM
Well, right now, this is running of a modified version of columns 2, 3, 4, and 5. What if we used the columns 3, 4, 5, and 6?

that might be better

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 07:12 PM
Could do that.

Could also tweak it from Level x Kido casting stat (+) the con one, to either or.

And the point of not having the same progression for everyone is because not everyone has the same amount of reiryoku.

Also, feats are already iffy in number. Or at least they are for a Kido Shini. (Speaking from the Shinigami side.)

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 07:17 PM
Could do that.

Could also tweak it from Level x Kido casting stat (+) the con one, to either or.

And the point of not having the same progression for everyone is because not everyone has the same amount of reiryoku.

Also, feats are already iffy in number. Or at least they are for a Kido Shini. (Speaking from the Shinigami side.)

true, that's why I suggest giving them the dense spiritual pressure ability when they take the class, to represent their reitsu.

I just think, with now there being a 1/4 chance of being shafter by the roll rather than a 1/8, and even the sword now potentially having a cost to use, a random roll can kill someones character at generation, which should never happen.

the idea of using 4, 5, 6, 7 from before would work will because each of them GETS spiritual power that's noticieable without being high leveled

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 07:23 PM
true, that's why I suggest giving them the dense spiritual pressure ability when they take the class, to represent their reitsu.

I just think, with now there being a 1/4 chance of being shafter by the roll rather than a 1/8, and even the sword now potentially having a cost to use, a random roll can kill someones character at generation, which should never happen.

the idea of using 4, 5, 6, 7 from before would work will because each of them GETS spiritual power that's noticieable without being high leveled

True. I'll work a bit with this. See what I come up with and will post it here.

Major
2011-09-13, 07:25 PM
I do have to say I dislike the idea of Shikai abilities using SEP. Right now rolling low sucks, but only if you want to use Kido.

If shikai abilities cost SEP that means if you roll one you will forever suck at everything. Kido, shikai, flashstep, etc.

One roll should determine 100% of your power. SEP is still a nice thing to have because even the non-kido users have the action points so it isn't WASTED sep.

Anyways, just my opinion. Leave Brittney Shikai alone!

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 07:38 PM
Right now rolling low sucks, but only if you want to use Kido.

Exactly. It only hurts you if you roll low.

And want to use Kido. Don't want to use Kido? Doesn't matter. This to me, is a small problem.. <<

Hence why I will rework the progression to be passable even for a low roll.

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 07:42 PM
I do have to say I dislike the idea of Shikai abilities using SEP. Right now rolling low sucks, but only if you want to use Kido.

If shikai abilities cost SEP that means if you roll one you will forever suck at everything. Kido, shikai, flashstep, etc.

One roll should determine 100% of your power. SEP is still a nice thing to have because even the non-kido users have the action points so it isn't WASTED sep.

Anyways, just my opinion. Leave Brittney Shikai alone!

Or at least at it to point buy. And have the bonus apply even if you don't use kidou.

If they cost SP, it needs to be balanced so that stronger abilities (like wounding) cost more.

Also. The guys working on the project changing something just so his character works? Not cool man, not cool.

Major
2011-09-13, 07:47 PM
Exactly. It only hurts you if you roll low.

Hence why I will rework the progression to be passable even for a low roll.

My point was that by making everything (shikai, flash step, kido, etc) rely on SEP it is basically making something MAD, but with a separate stat you don't pick to put a roll into.

Example: Let's say I roll SEP and roll a 1 or 2. Ok, whatever, so I won't be the best Kido user. I don't care I plan on being a dedicated warrior. Sure I won't have many action points but big deal.

Now by making EVERYTHING rely on Kido a characters Tier and power will be 100% dependent on one roll. Even if "No matter what its passable" you will compare yourself.

Example:
*Current System*
I roll a 1 as a dedicated warrior. No big deal, I'm still useful and having an 8 wouldn't really matter to me. I won't fall behind.

*Suggested System*
I roll a 1 as a dedicated warrior. No shikai. Uhhhh so what am I good at? I can't use Kido, shikai, flash step, etc. In EVERY area I'm weaker.

It would be like if Wizards introduced a new stat and said "This stat determines what feats a fighter can take, what spells a wizard can cast, what type of animal companion a druid and ranger can have, your class ability progression, etc etc."

It forces EVERY class to need something and balance is no longer determined with class, but with a single roll.

A dedicated warrior isn't normally overshadowed by a Kido user or a specialist shikai or a multi-type shikai. All are about equal but do different things. Now that single roll will determine the extent of your power. Those that roll 1s will be like a fighter in a group with a wizard (8).

It will hurt the balance side BADLY.

Do NOT make everything use SEP >.> Adding the bonus was nice. It means you can still do your job, but have a use for SEP, but missing it won't hurt. Setting up a system where you can't use any of your own abilities sucks.

Major
2011-09-13, 07:55 PM
Or at least at it to point buy. And have the bonus apply even if you don't use kidou.

If they cost SP, it needs to be balanced so that stronger abilities (like wounding) cost more.

Also. The guys working on the project changing something just so his character works? Not cool man, not cool.

Honestly, if you had to have it as a point buy or roll system use a better roll system. Don't make it independent of everything where you only have one choice. What I'd recommend is figure out a divide by system. Normally its 4d6 drop lowest. Add it as a 7th stat. Roll 4d6. Whatever stat you place into SEP uses a ranking system. This way people can still dumb it, but it mixes nicely. With point by do the same thing, but add extra points since a 7th stat has been added.

3-4=1
5-6=2
7-8=3
9-10=4
11-12=5
13-14=6
15-16=7
17-18=8


Exactly. It only hurts you if you roll low.

And want to use Kido. Don't want to use Kido? Doesn't matter. This to me, is a small problem.. <<

Hence why I will rework the progression to be passable even for a low roll.

I agree that "Don't use Kido,doesn't matter" is a problem. But saying "Don't have SEP, you know suck" is a worse idea. Add more uses for SEP. Add SEP feats. Get a nice action dice system.

Make it where having SEP is NICE, but isn't NECESSARY. Just like having Kido is NICE but isn't NECESSARY.

SEP should be a cool thing to have for bonuses and extras, but not something that determines everything about you.

Major
2011-09-13, 07:57 PM
Sorry for what will essentially be a triple post, but I want to give an example.

4d6, seven times.

4d6b3
4d6b3
4d6b3
4d6b3
4d6b3
4d6b3
4d6b3


I would have these points to spend amongst str, dex, con, int, wis, cha, and SEP ranking using the above listed number to SEP conversion.

Edit: forgot dice roller doesn't work here. But you get the point.

Say the rolls were
16
14
12
10
6
18
9

One could pick where to put the stats. A kido user would obviously want high SEP and high casting stat. A dedicated warrior might want str, con and not care about SEP, etc etc.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 07:58 PM
Or at least at it to point buy. And have the bonus apply even if you don't use kidou.

I will put a system in for this as an -alternative-. I don't particularly like point buy, so I won't make it the -only- option. Not to say my opinion is the only one that counts, just saying I will make sure there are other options. The reason it wasn't originally point buy was because I was leaving it to a DM to work it out.


If they cost SP, it needs to be balanced so that stronger abilities (like wounding) cost more.

Not every ability will have SP cost. Wounding for instance, will likely not. Or it might have an activation cost.. which would work.. nicely.. Hmm.


Also. The guys working on the project changing something just so his character works? Not cool man, not cool.

Who's this? I am only updating things in response to this thread, and what I had planned on doing anyway.


Edit:
Also, I find SP a very necessary thing. It's the foundation of the setting lol.. everyone who has spiritual powers has spiritual energy.. once they're out of it, they're exhausted. (Might add in Fatigue and Exhaustion depending on how much SP you have left..) in which case warriors are totally uneffected.

Major
2011-09-13, 08:01 PM
Who's this? I am only updating things in response to this thread, and what I had planned on doing anyway.

He's discussing the blood changes to allow charisma for those without con scores. (Added by DR)

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 08:05 PM
...........That change is not cool at all.

Wounding is for draining blood. Things that lack Con do not have a Con score. DR, I'ma slap you.

Edit: Nevermind. It's only giving Undead a way to utilize the Zanpakuto type. Don't see this as a huge issue.. it doesn't damage the enemies Charisma, just your own for using the powers.

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 08:06 PM
go major, fight the power!

and I'm behind him fully. 1 roll should not be able to decide you're entire future. I like the idea of having a cost on some sword abilities (those that emulate spell effects comes to mind most, such as the one that use evards black tentacles)

I quite like his suggested roll system, it works.

and like Major said, if you want SEP to be more usefull without making it the reasoning behind the character entierly, add in some more feats that use it. this way it can be used for a boost to the character without becoming overpowered, or the one skill that counts.

also, why would wounding need the cost? 1 con damage is NOT that much

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 08:09 PM
...........That change is not cool at all.

Wounding is for draining blood. Things that lack Con do not have a Con score. DR, I'ma slap you.

Edit: Nevermind. It's only giving Undead a way to utilize the Zanpakuto type. Don't see this as a huge issue.. it doesn't damage the enemies Charisma, just your own for using the powers.

woot, I fully support this. a blood drinking creature should not be able to sacrifice blood to power itself up, norr say my charisma is blood

also, it means we vizard have more chance of not bieng drained to nothing against him, but that's not the point of my support. honest....

*vanishes*

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 08:10 PM
go major, fight the power!

and I'm behind him fully. 1 roll should not be able to decide you're entire future. I like the idea of having a cost on some sword abilities (those that emulate spell effects comes to mind most, such as the one that use evards black tentacles)
I didn't say -everything- would have an SP cost. Mostly just things that emulate huge spell effects or the like. @_@!


also, why would wounding need the cost? 1 con damage is NOT that much

1 Con damage or 2 with Greater.. twin weapons..is possibly 7 con damage per round.. add haste or speed, another 2. Hehe.

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 08:17 PM
1 Con damage or 2 with Greater.. twin weapons..is possibly 7 con damage per round.. add haste or speed, another 2. Hehe.

Keeping in mind that most people have 12-16 con, that's dead in 2 rounds without even taking into account HP damage. Blood right now is the most powerful damage dealing type. Combined with poison, you can OHKO someone.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 08:18 PM
Major: So many posts! You like to multi-post, eh? lol

But in all seriousness, I guess I don't recall most of us mentioning making Shikai abilities cost SP, but I look at it this way:

1. Not all Shikai abilities in the anime/manga appear to drain the user. Ichigo, for instance, gets faster, but isn't drained for being able to move quicker. However, whenever he uses Getsuga Tensho, it sometimes seems to have an effect on him. (Smaller uses of Getsuga Tensho don't bug him at all, but pouring a large amount of Spiritual Energy into it makes him stagger at times.)

2. The abilities that do seem to "cost" something are usually ranged attacks. Rukia seems to be a little tired everytime she uses certain techniques, usually the pillar of ice. (Tsugi no Mai - Hakuren, if I remember right. Not sure right now, though.)

3. Even viewing the above point, Byakuya's Senbonzakura doesn't drain him at all. The blade of his sword disappears, and he gains a tremendous ranged attack. (Projectile Type.) This just becomes a great attack when he uses Bankai, which still doesn't drain him, until he uses his more powerful techniques, which would be the rough equivalent of the Final Bankai Attack class feature, as I see it.

4. Even in the case of techniques that require a cost, they don't all require SP. Quite frankly, Blood Type Shikai seem to require blood to work. Sounds to me like using Blood Type techniques would cause you HP damage. Sound fair? But, what then about Ice/Water Zanpakutou? And Fire Zanpakutou? Can Reiatsu ignite a sword, then send a wave of fire at someone? Can Water techniques be used in the desert? Can Wind techniques be used underwater? Lightning techniques without an electrical storm? Light techniques in the dark? Dark in the light?

So, basically (forgive me for that), if costs are added to Shikai abilities, we might as well start thinking about material components for each type as well. I personally like the system as it is, without Shikai ability costs. I would have no problem taking on a Blood Shikai with my Generic one. (Yes, I'm going to build a character that uses only Generic Shikai abilities.) It just wouldn't be fair, in my opinion, to penalize them for doing something different than me, who will be focusing on buffs.

Major
2011-09-13, 08:19 PM
I didn't say -everything- would have an SP cost. Mostly just things that emulate huge spell effects or the like. @_@!



1 Con damage or 2 with Greater.. twin weapons..is possibly 7 con damage per round.. add haste or speed, another 2. Hehe.

This goes back to my long post saying how most abilities can get ridiculous. How about making the con damage only usable once in a full round action if you are worried about that. Apply to one attack or hell make it a standard action to use. Either or.

Anyways, I can see the spells using SP, but again I dislike it. The Zanpakuto should be the one thing a Shinigami can fall back on. Saying his zanpakuto can't be used because he lacks enough points is just a bitch.

I think the action dice is a step in the right direction (here is something anyone CAN use, but doesn't need), while Shikai SP cost is the wrong direction (You need SP or your shikai sucks and isn't special).

Anyways, your post are unclear. first you said wounding wouldn't have a cost, then you gave a reason it would.

Edit: Basically I dislike the shikai cost and like it how it is...

Dionon
2011-09-13, 08:20 PM
Had a question about the Mind type.

Why do you have the Color Spray tree in there? It doesn't seem to go with the theme of the type.

Major
2011-09-13, 08:22 PM
Keeping in mind that most people have 12-16 con, that's dead in 2 rounds without even taking into account HP damage. Blood right now is the most powerful damage dealing type. Combined with poison, you can OHKO someone.

Or oppression blood, but either way I suggested a change. Either standard action con damage. Or only once per round/full attack.

Oppression, poison, ice, and I think one other have ways to deal con damage (or something close enough. If you get dex or str to zero you have all the time in the world to coup de grace them)

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 08:25 PM
Dionon: What do you mean? The idea of color spray is to stun them by overloading their mind. (I'm a flavor geek.)

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 08:28 PM
Dionon: What do you mean? The idea of color spray is to stun them by overloading their mind. (I'm a flavor geek.)

This^


Also, may just drop SP costs for Shikai powers. But in doing so, I will likely need to update the Kido Type. As it stands, it's the most expensive shikai to use just its powers.

As for wounding.. maybe we could add a saving throw..

Edit: Alternatively, may shift the color spray tree to Light. Thoughts..?

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 08:28 PM
colour spray: becuase there's nothing cooler than defeating your opponent by shooting rainbows at them from your sword :smallcool:

Dionon
2011-09-13, 08:29 PM
Dionon: What do you mean? The idea of color spray is to stun them by overloading their mind. (I'm a flavor geek.)

What I mean is that it leads to Prismatic Sphere, which has nothing to do with overloading their mind. It just doesn't seem to jibe if you know what I mean.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 08:30 PM
Edit: Alternatively, may shift the color spray tree to Light. Thoughts..?

See this note here. ^

Major
2011-09-13, 08:32 PM
This^


Also, may just drop SP costs for Shikai powers. But in doing so, I will likely need to update the Kido Type. As it stands, it's the most expensive shikai to use just its powers.

As for wounding.. maybe we could add a saving throw..

Edit: Alternatively, may shift the color spray tree to Light. Thoughts..?

I approve of the SP power drop and helping out the Kido school.

On a side note, what about my Shikai suggestion. Save DC works, though what about limiting it to once per round or make it a standard action or something?

(Oppression, Ice, and Poison also do a LOT more stat damage than blood btw)

Dionon
2011-09-13, 08:32 PM
That might be a good idea, Light suffers unless you dedicate everything you have to it.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 08:33 PM
A quick question for you, Major.


If I said that the vast majority of attacks in Bleach used up some of of the reiryoku of their users, would you believe me? That they channel it through their zanpakutou to attack?

Major
2011-09-13, 08:34 PM
I quite like his suggested roll system, it works.

^I vote we use it. Mainly because I want to feel awesome and feel like I added to the system :P Then I can tell people when trying to get them to join that I helped :P

Edit: Vast majority? Uhhhhh honestly I was of the opinion that is was the using of Shikai that was draining them. Thus the SEP cost to use it. I wouldn't say MOST, but I would agree that in universe, yes it drains them.

But in universe they can also plotkai and keep going and going well past their "limit" and the "limit" is usually only mentioned as a "Oh noes drama!" moment.

I'd point out that I can't recall anytime a Shinigami went to toss an attack and nothing happened because they lacked energy.

Urahara always got his blood shield up, always blocked energy he analyzed, always got the shockwave off.

Soi fon never realized her shikai didn't activate due to no energy to use it.

Rukia never tried to toss ice just to receive error 404.

Etc.

I'd compare it more to swinging your sword around. A long fight is going to tire you out, that's just how fights work. Shinigami never ran out of "Shikai power per day".

Plus I don't think it works well as a game mechanic if most shinigami are forced to play like Wizards.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 08:34 PM
Dionon: I think of it as a moving ball of seizure. Kinda like that episode of Pokemon that debuted Porygon. (I hate how "Porygon" is the Japanese translation of "polygon". Japan, you trolls...)

ASoL: I'm with you for the saving throw. Fort save verse 10+1/2 character level? If the save succeeds, take Zanpakutou damage instead?

Also, I can see the color spray stuff in Light. Just wonder if we should fill the Mind void a little after that... Hm...

(ASoL is the letters of "also" rearranged, and an acronym for AShadowofLife... Conspiracy?)

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 08:35 PM
A quick question for you, Major.


If I said that the vast majority of attacks in Bleach used up some of of the reiryoku of their users, would you believe me? That they channel it through their zanpakutou to attack?

And that this was stated by the guy who doesn't even know how zanpakuto's name?

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 08:39 PM
And that this was stated by the guy who doesn't even know how zanpakuto's name?

Hm? Sorry, what?

Major
2011-09-13, 08:40 PM
A quick question for you, Major.


If I said that the vast majority of attacks in Bleach used up some of of the reiryoku of their users, would you believe me? That they channel it through their zanpakutou to attack?

I edited my post to answer.


Dionon: I think of it as a moving ball of seizure. Kinda like that episode of Pokemon that debuted Porygon. (I hate how "Porygon" is the Japanese translation of "polygon". Japan, you trolls...)

ASoL: I'm with you for the saving throw. Fort save verse 10+1/2 character level? If the save succeeds, take Zanpakutou damage instead?

Also, I can see the color spray stuff in Light. Just wonder if we should fill the Mind void a little after that... Hm...

(ASoL is the letters of "also" rearranged, and an acronym for AShadowofLife... Conspiracy?)

fort save works I guess. Honestly an ability that adds +2 to the DC would be nice since most other types with a DC have that option. I still say limiting it to once per round would also work. But that's up to you guys. I can see either.

Also, it already DOES zanpakuto damage. I think you meant if the save succeeds you ONLY take Zanpakuto damage.

I'd also suggest DC 10+1/2 level+Con modifier.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 08:43 PM
Mind has plenty. Will shuffle Color Spray tree over to light for some kewl toys for them.

Will look over Poison, Ice, and Oppression. As it stands, Poison has save DC's. Don't see a huge issue with it currently.

Ice will get the same treatment as blood.

Oppression... Will look at it.

As for rolling 4d6 thingy for your SEP score.. Eh. This is making it more complicated than it already is. I made it simple for ease of use, however.. we can easily add alternatives!

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 08:45 PM
Yes, Major, that's what I meant. Thank you for pointing that out.

If no one else gets to it first, I'll add a DC+ ability after I work on some skills.

Major
2011-09-13, 08:45 PM
Mind has plenty. Will shuffle Color Spray tree over to light for some kewl toys for them.

Will look over Poison, Ice, and Oppression. As it stands, Poison has save DC's. Don't see a huge issue with it currently.

Ice will get the same treatment as blood.

Oppression... Will look at it.

As for rolling 4d6 thingy for your SEP score.. Eh. This is making it more complicated than it already is. I made it simple for ease of use, however.. we can easily add alternatives!

Well, the reason I suggested the 4d6 was because if it becomes a part of stat rolling than you have options and choices. Right now a simple 1d8 is no choice its all in the single dice roll.

While I have no problem with SEP and how it currently is (as long as Shikai's stay point free), some people do.

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 08:46 PM
Hm? Sorry, what?

During his fight with Ichigo, Kenpachi informed him that his blade was able to cut his (ichigo's) blade because his spiritual pressure was greater and able to force Ichigo back.

So, yes, spiritual pressure has a heavy impact on how everyone in the Soul Society fights, not just kidou users.

Major
2011-09-13, 08:48 PM
During his fight with Ichigo, Kenpachi informed him that his blade was able to cut his (ichigo's) blade because his spiritual pressure was greater and able to force Ichigo back.

So, yes, spiritual pressure has a heavy impact on how everyone in the Soul Society fights, not just kidou users.

If you want to quote the actual manga I suggest some feats

"Plotkai" You auto-win via haxors

And

"Troll the ending" A minor character shows up and saves the hero who was going to lose.

Regardless of if it impacted that's what bonus options (feats) are for. Not for saying "Your character sucks because of one roll you had no choice in."

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 08:51 PM
You're missing my point, so I'm not going to justify it with a rebuttal. :smallannoyed:

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 08:54 PM
Added DC and +DC to Blood. Moved Color Spray Tree as discussed.

I kinda like the rolling thing for SEP system as an alternative.

Spiritual Pressure =/= SEP.

SEP = Reiryoku or Spiritual Energy. However, it's used often, heh.

Might be increasing the Shikai activation costs and such a tad bit.

Maybe to SP = to your character level, twice as much for extension? Not sure though.. maybe 1/2 level for activate?

Also:
THE GAME, you just lost it.

Edit: I should go about making forums for this rather than making this one huge topic..

Major
2011-09-13, 09:03 PM
Added DC and +DC to Blood. Moved Color Spray Tree as discussed.

I kinda like the rolling thing for SEP system as an alternative.

Spiritual Pressure =/= SEP.

SEP = Reiryoku or Spiritual Energy. However, it's used often, heh.

Might be increasing the Shikai activation costs and such a tad bit.

Maybe to SP = to your character level, twice as much for extension? Not sure though.. maybe 1/2 level for activate?

The problem with it as an alternative is (like I said before). It is one completely exclusive roll that you don't get a choice from. It is like when a DM says roll randomly for strength. Roll randomly for Dex. Etc. (Not roll and pick)

-------------
As for Shikai activation:

Your character level to activate? That seems a bit gross? I mean you get stronger and you have a HARDER time keeping your Shikai up? Plus 20SEP for Shikai activation is going to kill anyone with a 1.

Like I said, my opinion is that Shikai should be the one thing ALL shinigami can fall back on. Your Zanpakuto, shikai, etc is the main thing. Kido is a nice plus, flash step is a nice plus, feats that give you a nice use for SP is a nice plus.

The cheap Shikai is there for a reason. It's not supposed to be expensive. It is the fall back that all Shinigami have so that all are equal. No matter what you rolled for your spiritual pressure ranking you can at least use your blade and all its abilities. It gives people something to do.

Those that rolled high get Kido, flash step, feats, etc. Don't rob the people that rolled low by giving them nothing to do.

Plus if you make Shikai expensive then Constant Release WILL be broken. Right now Constant release is balanced because its a minor benefit (Ambush round you are fine). Make Shikai expensive and it means Constant Release will either be way over powered or it means that you'll have to cut constant release so that it sucks.

I understand wanting to change things, but major things like this?

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-13, 09:04 PM
whihc is represented, in the rules set, by the option to buy dr with feats. adding in some form of damage resistance to the SEP roll as well really would make the gamre rely on one roll: the SEP one

which is crap for the person who rolls a 1, and epic beyond belief for the guy who rolls max.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 09:05 PM
You're missing my point, so I'm not going to justify it with a rebuttal. :smallannoyed:

Just wanted to point out that I read somewhere that arguments similar to most of yours come from people who don't actually know what their talking about. A Cracked.com article.

Major
2011-09-13, 09:05 PM
whihc is represented, in the rules set, by the option to buy dr with feats. adding in some form of damage resistance to the SEP roll as well really would make the gamre rely on one roll: the SEP one

which is crap for the person who rolls a 1, and epic beyond belief for the guy who rolls max.

Thus why I say give bonus options, but nothing that you NEED.

Give feats to spend SEP on. Give options to spend SEP on. But don't say "Your class abilities are useless without SEP"

At the very least I think they dropped the idea of Shikai ability cost.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 09:10 PM
The cheap Shikai is there for a reason.

I know. I created the cost. *Swats.*

Will keep it as is.

Major
2011-09-13, 09:12 PM
I know. I created the cost. *Swats.*

Will keep it as is.

Thank you :)

Honestly, I will say of all the people that are working on this I seem to enjoy you the most =_= Nothing against the other by the way, I'm glad you are all working on it.

But you seem to know your stuff :P Specialized, constant, etc.

I DO agree with you by the way that SEP needs more uses. Mainly because its completely untouched by some builds (dedicated warrior). However I think feats are a better option. Give more choices as opposed to less.

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 09:14 PM
Well there is the feat Spiritual-Energy Augmented Attacks. Maybe feats along those lines?

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 09:17 PM
Thank you :)

Honestly, I will say of all the people that are working on this I seem to enjoy you the most =_= Nothing against the other by the way, I'm glad you are all working on it.

But you seem to know your stuff :P Specialized, constant, etc.

I DO agree with you by the way that SEP needs more uses. Mainly because its completely untouched by some builds (dedicated warrior). However I think feats are a better option. Give more choices as opposed to less.

Thanks. I generally form a cut and dry equation in my head. "What does this -actually- do?" Scenario's are completely in control of your DM, so I don't always bring these up. Since there's not a huge chance of XXX condition. If does come up? Awesome.

And I agree.. need more uses. But these uses shouldn't be better than Kido, more likely equal. Ideas on moar uses would be good.. I have thought of Shunpo techs and Zanjutsu techs. < Could be argued that they shouldn't cost SEP, which would negate the whole point.

Also! I need to rework Shunko..

Major
2011-09-13, 09:17 PM
Well there is the feat Spiritual-Energy Augmented Attacks. Maybe feats along those lines?

I didn't noticed the updated feats.

Enduring Spirit, Spiritual energy augmented attack, super-charged shunpo. Those are nice options even for dedicated warriors. Hell, the augmented is really nice.

Enduring spirit+diehard anyone :P

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 09:19 PM
Enduring Spirit could use a format like SEAA, honestly. 3 SP for 1d6 healed hp a round? Not going to get you anywhere at higher levels.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 09:21 PM
Edit: Vast majority? Uhhhhh honestly I was of the opinion that is was the using of Shikai that was draining them. Thus the SEP cost to use it. I wouldn't say MOST, but I would agree that in universe, yes it drains them.

But in universe they can also plotkai and keep going and going well past their "limit" and the "limit" is usually only mentioned as a "Oh noes drama!" moment.

I'd point out that I can't recall anytime a Shinigami went to toss an attack and nothing happened because they lacked energy.

Urahara always got his blood shield up, always blocked energy he analyzed, always got the shockwave off.

Soi fon never realized her shikai didn't activate due to no energy to use it.

Rukia never tried to toss ice just to receive error 404.

Etc.


Er.... Let me say that for most of those times, the characters are A) fully-rested, or B) you know, know their own limits and don't use anything they're sure they couldn't afford to use. Another thing to note is that all of those Shinigami you're mentioning? They're seated officers or even captains. They'd have much more reiryoku than non-seated shinigami. Which is what'll make up the majority of PCs, until the PCs are at higher levels.

Hm... How odd. Strong people don't run out of energy when they're using attacks that run on energy, but if I suggest that maybe weaker people should be able to, people get annoyed.



I'd compare it more to swinging your sword around. A long fight is going to tire you out, that's just how fights work. Shinigami never ran out of "Shikai power per day".

In series? Yes, because the characters are fairly high level and have some ways to restore their power, as well as resting as much as possible. Also, Hisagi versus Yumichika. Who had his reiryoku drain and couldn't use attacks, again?


Plus I don't think it works well as a game mechanic if most shinigami are forced to play like Wizards.

Not so much play like wizards as... Play like, oh, Psions. You'd have your set list abilities, yes, and you'd power them with points from a pool.






Anyway, regarding SEP to use Shikai abilities... I support it, if those costs are only on activated abilities, and not passive ones. I can see the cost of activating passive abilities being included in the total activation cost, yes, but not continuously. So activating a shikai that, say, has a stat boost included costs, oh, 3 more than activating a normal one?

So, say, to use Spirit Blast at 2d8, you spend... Oh, how about 3 or so SEP? And if you pick up spirit blast a second time, you can spend 5 to send off a 4d8 blast? It provides a basic framework, a limiter on total uses, and a place to use your SEP if you're a dedicated warrior.




Furthermore, I support Major's idea for making SEP a 7th stat, rolled for at character creation or purchased with point buy.




EDIT: And, regarding Constant Release and this idea...

A single clause in there would solve it all, too-

"If you take an ability that provides a bonus or effect for as long as your Shikai is active, the effect is instead activated as a swift action, and drains a number of point of SE per round equal to half of its normal activation cost. You may end your use of the ability as a standard action."



Suddenly, nerf bat to the face.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 09:21 PM
I didn't noticed the updated feats.

Enduring Spirit, Spiritual energy augmented attack, super-charged shunpo. Those are nice options even for dedicated warriors. Hell, the augmented is really nice.

Enduring spirit+diehard anyone :P

Enduring Spirit is suppose to be 3 SP per 1d6 healed.. sorry, I should have clarified it. *Face palms.*

From Magus:

Anyway, regarding SEP to use Shikai abilities... I support it, if those costs are only on activated abilities, and not passive ones. I can see the cost of activating passive abilities being included in the total activation cost, yes, but not continuously. So activating a shikai that, say, has a stat boost included costs, oh, 3 more than activating a normal one?

So, say, to use Spirit Blast at 2d8, you spend... Oh, how about 3 or so SEP? And if you pick up spirit blast a second time, you can spend 5 to send off a 4d8 blast? It provides a basic framework, a limiter on total uses, and a place to use your SEP if you're a dedicated warrior.

Eh, rather see them being spent per use which makes more sense.. but.. Not sure. Will leave it as is until we can work out the system a bit.


Furthermore, I support Major's idea for making SEP a 7th stat, rolled for at character creation or purchased with point buy.

I agree. (Even if I hate both options as a player. I like having a set of stats <<, but meh! Point buy > Random rollage.)

Major
2011-09-13, 09:23 PM
Enduring Spirit could use a format like SEAA, honestly. 3 SP for 1d6 healed hp a round? Not going to get you anywhere at higher levels.

I was actually thinking the same thing. Though I will mention that Diehard+Enduring Spirit with augmented could get nasty.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 09:28 PM
Check my edit. It has some more things to note regarding a point cost.

Major
2011-09-13, 09:31 PM
Check my edit. It has some more things to note regarding a point cost.

"If you take an ability that provides a bonus or effect for as long as your Shikai is active, the effect is instead activated as a swift action, and drains a number of point of SE per round equal to half of its normal activation cost. You may end your use of the ability as a standard action."

Major nerf in that it defeats one of the biggest reasons to take it. As mentioned before constant release is similar to uncanny dodge, etc. Where the point is to help in cases of ambushes. In most cases having a sealed is better. You get an extra feat that can be spent on a more useful feat. Constant is really only great only in that you are buffed and not caught off guard.

You DO realized that's about the only COMMON time that the feat is useful right? Is ambushes?

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 09:33 PM
Passive effects shouldn't have an SP cost. Just the actives, if we add it at all. Anyway.. I want to make a forum for this. Anyone know a good one? If so, I will get busy and make us one. Then those who are part of the contribution team will be added as such and we can work stuff outs.


Edit:
I object to nerfing Constant Relase. It's unnecessary as I pointed out earlier.

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 09:34 PM
Anyway, regarding SEP to use Shikai abilities... I support it, if those costs are only on activated abilities, and not passive ones. I can see the cost of activating passive abilities being included in the total activation cost, yes, but not continuously. So activating a shikai that, say, has a stat boost included costs, oh, 3 more than activating a normal one?

So, say, to use Spirit Blast at 2d8, you spend... Oh, how about 3 or so SEP? And if you pick up spirit blast a second time, you can spend 5 to send off a 4d8 blast? It provides a basic framework, a limiter on total uses, and a place to use your SEP if you're a dedicated warrior.

Makes sense to me. Gives a reason for Ichigo's Gestsuga Tenshou to be a 3/day thing that drains his energy. Same with Toshiro's Ice Flower (forgot the japanese name for it), which slowly drains away.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 09:35 PM
Major nerf in that it defeats one of the biggest reasons to take it. As mentioned before constant release is similar to uncanny dodge, etc. Where the point is to help in cases of ambushes. In most cases having a sealed is better. You get an extra feat that can be spent on a more useful feat. Constant is really only great only in that you are buffed and not caught off guard.

You DO realized that's about the only COMMON time that the feat is useful right? Is ambushes?

...

"If you take an ability that provides a bonus or effect for as long as your Shikai is active, the effect is instead activated as an immediate action, usable even while flat-footed, and drains a number of point of SE per round equal to half of its normal activation cost. You may end your use of the ability as a standard action."



Better?

Dionon
2011-09-13, 09:35 PM
Passive effects shouldn't have an SP cost. Just the actives, if we add it at all. Anyway.. I want to make a forum for this. Anyone know a good one? If so, I will get busy and make us one. Then those who are part of the contribution team will be added as such and we can work stuff outs.


Edit:
I object to nerfing Constant Relase. It's unnecessary as I pointed out earlier.

You could use Proboards like I'm using. It's a nice simple interface that is easy to work with pretty much.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 09:36 PM
The myfreeforum sites are usually good. If you would like, I can donate the forum I'm a part of, The Ricebox (ricebox.myfreeforum.org), to pursue this.

Major
2011-09-13, 09:38 PM
...

"If you take an ability that provides a bonus or effect for as long as your Shikai is active, the effect is instead activated as an immediate action, usable even while flat-footed, and drains a number of point of SE per round equal to half of its normal activation cost. You may end your use of the ability as a standard action."



Better?

It's better, but you are the only one who thinks it needs a nerf...

As for the Shikai activation system it's...better, but still a pain. It would KILL water. I mean water' balancing factor is that it is VERY ability heavy and takes time to set up. Tossing on cost for EVERY mirage would rape it to the ends of the earth.

I'm vastly against Shikai cost...especially since its going to end up hurting most builds and making "passive" builds crazy.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 09:49 PM
Passive effects shouldn't have an SP cost. Just the actives, if we add it at all.

Oh, only the actives would have an SP cost. It's just that for each passive, the shikai activation cost should increase.

Think of it this way- is it fair to let someone pay 1 sp, activate, and get a plethora of bonuses to defenses, while someone else does the same, but with no bonuses?

Not at all. Which is why I'm currently mulling over a quick system to make that fairer.


Edit:
I object to nerfing Constant Relase. It's unnecessary as I pointed out earlier.

Wasn't trying to. Just trying to make it seem like it'd be balanced compared to my suggestions so far.


Makes sense to me. Gives a reason for Ichigo's Gestsuga Tenshou to be a 3/day thing that drains his energy. Same with Toshiro's Ice Flower (forgot the japanese name for it), which slowly drains away.

Yep. That was my line of thought, too.


It's better, but you are the only one who thinks it needs a nerf...

Except I don't really. I think that if we revamp the shikai system, it will need to be changed, though.


As for the Shikai activation system it's...better, but still a pain. It would KILL water. I mean water' balancing factor is that it is VERY ability heavy and takes time to set up. Tossing on cost for EVERY mirage would rape it to the ends of the earth.

Which is why we'd need to discuss the abilities. Not every mirage would have to be paid for, but if they did, they'd likely be cheaper than everything else, due to them having little substance and just affecting the senses.


I'm vastly against Shikai cost...especially since its going to end up hurting most builds and making "passive" builds crazy.

Note that I'm still suggesting that we make those "passive" builds pay for their bonuses when they activate Shikai.


But we'd need to talk about the individual abilities to work out the costs, and that should wait.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 09:52 PM
I'm now working on the Craft skill for Shinigami items. (Just doing them first. If nobody tackles Quincy items, I'll do them too.) My thoughts so far:

1. In order to craft certain items, you can use SP in place of some materials. If there are spell effects in the creation of the item, you may, instead of knowing the spell, use SP equal to the CLx2.

2. Progress by the day, instead of the week. To do this, convert the price of the item into silver pieces, and every time you make a check, multiply the result, if it succeeds a DC 20, by 20. If that number meets or exceeds the price in s.p., you have crafted the item.

3. If multiple characters are involved in creating the item, they may expend SP as part of the material cost as well. Furthermore, each character aiding the one doing the crafting adds +1 to the craft check.

Sound good?

Major
2011-09-13, 09:55 PM
Alright, alright... in regards to this whole Shikai thing. I think we are forgetting one detail.

Why?

No seriously. Why? I'm not seeing the need to make this change and force Shikai's to cost SP? The system works fine how it is at the moment and adding it causes more problems than it fixes. It's like if your toilet works fine and you decide to change it so that when the water flushes it shoots fireworks. Sure it is cool, but then you ended up burning your ass for no reason at all.

Alright fine, that example was more for the lolz, but I stand by the why point?

Each Shikai has a reason to be taken (as has been gone over in earlier post). Adding a cost seems to be an unnecessary system added for the sake of doing something.

My main problem is I see little reason to add this system when it really has NO purpose that I can see.

If the issue is "What do with SP?" The answer is add more feats like the ones discussed earlier. Not "force more things to use SP"

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 10:04 PM
Used Pro Boards. You can find the link in the Handbook Home!

Discussions can be taken there for separate posts for easier discussions to keep on topic of a specific thing.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 10:04 PM
Alright, alright... in regards to this whole Shikai thing. I think we are forgetting one detail.

Why?

No seriously. Why? I'm not seeing the need to make this change and force Shikai's to cost SP? The system works fine how it is at the moment and adding it causes more problems than it fixes. It's like if your toilet works fine and you decide to change it so that when the water flushes it shoots fireworks. Sure it is cool, but then you ended up burning your ass for no reason at all.

Alright fine, that example was more for the lolz, but I stand by the why point?

Each Shikai has a reason to be taken (as has been gone over in earlier post). Adding a cost seems to be an unnecessary system added for the sake of doing something.

My main problem is I see little reason to add this system when it really has NO purpose that I can see.

If the issue is "What do with SP?" The answer is add more feats like the ones discussed earlier. Not "force more things to use SP"

So, is that a no to what I proposed? :(

Binks
2011-09-13, 10:08 PM
I have to agree with Major on this one. I mean, raise your hand if you don't think the shikai system as-is is fun. I certainly do, and I haven't seen a single 'this system stinks, it would be better with extra costs' comment being made.

Active vs. Passive is balanced by action economy as is. Adding costs across the board will just reduce everyone's SEP, and therefore everyone's options. Is that really something that should be done? I think the system is fine as it is with no extra costs beyond that to release and maintain the release personally.

IMHO the shikai system is the best part of the system atm. Why does it need to be changed (beyond minor balance fixes and adding types obviously)?

Turalisj
2011-09-13, 10:08 PM
No seriously. Why? I'm not seeing the need to make this change and force Shikai's to cost SP? The system works fine how it is at the moment and adding it causes more problems than it fixes.

But the system doesn't work fine. It has flaws, which can be fixed. Yes, the new system would cause problems, but adjusting all the powers would take care of the problems.

Maybe if just one of the zanpakuto types was adjusted so you could see the end result? Maybe water? If you could compare before and after, would you change your mind?

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 10:09 PM
I'm now working on the Craft skill for Shinigami items. (Just doing them first. If nobody tackles Quincy items, I'll do them too.) My thoughts so far:

I'll tackle the Quincy.


1. In order to craft certain items, you can use SP in place of some materials. If there are spell effects in the creation of the item, you may, instead of knowing the spell, use SP equal to the CLx2.

I like this, but some things should also be spending gold and/or XP (not a fan of spending XP on -anything- personally, but that'sme. I'm cheap.)


2. Progress by the day, instead of the week. To do this, convert the price of the item into silver pieces, and every time you make a check, multiply the result, if it succeeds a DC 20, by 20. If that number meets or exceeds the price in s.p., you have crafted the item.

I like.


3. If multiple characters are involved in creating the item, they may expend SP as part of the material cost as well. Furthermore, each character aiding the one doing the crafting adds +1 to the craft check.

Sound good?

I like and yes.

The-Mage-King
2011-09-13, 10:15 PM
But the system doesn't work fine. It has flaws, which can be fixed. Yes, the new system would cause problems, but adjusting all the powers would take care of the problems.

Pretty much this.


Maybe if just one of the zanpakuto types was adjusted so you could see the end result? Maybe water? If you could compare before and after, would you change your mind?

Allow me to do so. Let the guy who's making the majority of the suggestions on this line show his concept.

Nerameshu
2011-09-13, 10:16 PM
I like this, but some things should also be spending gold and/or XP (not a fan of spending XP on -anything- personally, but that'sme. I'm cheap.)

I agree, but the cost for the "Advanced Gigai" is 4550 g.p. 1/3 of that is roughly 1516 g.p. Using SP for part of the materials will help without reducing levels. And thank you for tackling the Quincy stuff.

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 10:26 PM
I agree, but the cost for the "Advanced Gigai" is 4550 g.p. 1/3 of that is roughly 1516 g.p. Using SP for part of the materials will help without reducing levels. And thank you for tackling the Quincy stuff.

A majority of Quincy shizzle (or at least a good portion) will be folded into the new Ginto system, once I finish eet. Anywho.. go sign up for the Bleach d20 Classes board and drag this discussion there..!

Major
2011-09-13, 10:42 PM
So, is that a no to what I proposed? :(

My comment was to the Shikai system I like yours.


I have to agree with Major on this one. I mean, raise your hand if you don't think the shikai system as-is is fun. I certainly do, and I haven't seen a single 'this system stinks, it would be better with extra costs' comment being made.

Active vs. Passive is balanced by action economy as is. Adding costs across the board will just reduce everyone's SEP, and therefore everyone's options. Is that really something that should be done? I think the system is fine as it is with no extra costs beyond that to release and maintain the release personally.

IMHO the shikai system is the best part of the system atm. Why does it need to be changed (beyond minor balance fixes and adding types obviously)?

Exactly, the Shikai system is probably the best and most loved part of the system. There is no reason to change it.


But the system doesn't work fine. It has flaws, which can be fixed. Yes, the new system would cause problems, but adjusting all the powers would take care of the problems.

Maybe if just one of the zanpakuto types was adjusted so you could see the end result? Maybe water? If you could compare before and after, would you change your mind?

The system DOES work fine. You confuse perfection and "I can point out a problem" with "a flawed system." This system is much better than most. Hell, most other Bleach systems copied this shikai system.

Adjusting all the powers will not take care of the problems it will add MORE problems. The system DOES work fine and most flaws would be better fixed by making small changes to the ability (like we did with wounding) than by redoing the entire system and adding a whole new SEP cost.

Like I said, your Zanpakuto should be the one thing a Shinigami should ALWAYS be able to rely on and use. Making it cost your SP sucks.

I'll wait and see your "proposed change" (because denying it would be an ******* thing to do), but I really dislike this suggested change. It is revamping and redoing the entire Shikai system that makes the Bleach D20 so awesome.

I thought we had moved past this however...




Also, may just drop SP costs for Shikai powers. But in doing so, I will likely need to update the Kido Type. As it stands, it's the most expensive shikai to use just its powers.


And I'm sorry, where is the link to this new forum we will be using?

AShadowofLife
2011-09-13, 10:45 PM
The Home Page of the Bleachd20 (http://bleachd20-classes.proboards.com/index.cgi) Sourcebook *Coughs.*

May or may not use the shikai cost. Not sure yet. Doubtful however!

Major
2011-09-13, 10:48 PM
The Home Page of the Bleachd20 (http://bleachd20-classes.proboards.com/index.cgi) Sourcebook *Coughs.*

May or may not use the shikai cost. Not sure yet. Doubtful however!

Thank you for the link. Sorry I didn't realize it was on the source book home page.

Turalisj
2011-09-14, 07:35 PM
What knowledge area would cover hallows? Knowledge(planes)?

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-15, 07:31 AM
knowledge (Heceo Mundo) as hollows are able to take that, so it must be a knowledge :smallbiggrin: