Batman vs Cthulhu [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

GenericGuy

2011-09-09, 10:58 PM

Given that the man dress up like a bat, has severe trust issues, takes his anger and abandonment issues out by using copious amount of violence on random gangsters, and spends his free time alone with young children in a cave. I don’t see why he, of all people, would be “immune to insanity.”:smallconfused:

Anyways batman dies, but than his fanboys rise up in such anger and whininess that their possession Mary-sue lost, Cthulhu brings him back to life just to shut them up.:smallfurious::smalltongue:

…Sorry if this came across as mean spirited, but I really hate the level of fanboying of Batman, and am worried that I may grow irreversibly bitter toward a character I loved. :smallfrown:

Mystic Muse

2011-09-09, 10:58 PM

Wasn't Cthulhu taken out with a steamship?

I'm pretty sure Batman has access to a heck of a lot more than that.

Though, it depends. Which version of Batman is this?

Kindablue

2011-09-09, 11:05 PM

Wasn't Cthulhu taken out with a steamship?

He got better.

Given that the man dress up like a bat, has severe trust issues, takes his anger and abandonment issues out by using copious amount of violence on random gangsters, and spends his free time alone with young children in a cave. I don’t see why he, of all people, would be “immune to insanity.”:smallconfused:

You're right. I can't imagine him getting any crazier either. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2011-09-09, 11:11 PM

He got better.

Batman has done the same thing.:smalltongue:

the_druid_droid

2011-09-09, 11:14 PM

He got better.

This.

It seems that in the context of the mythos, Cthulu is fairly resilient, and it's not clear that any human could take him down for good, especially if they tried doing it via physical damage.

On the other hand, the timescales involved when you start talking about Cthulu & co. are ridiculously long, so the best plan is to find a way to delay them during their window of opportunity, and let someone (or some species) else worry about the next awakening. Since knowledge tends to be the downfall as well as the occasional salvation of Lovecraft's characters (see The Dunwich Horror or Charles Dexter Ward) and Batman is fairly good at knowledge-gathering and finding his enemies' weakness (as opposed to Superman's hit-it-till-it-stops-moving approach) it's possible he could find a way to delay things and save the day/eon.

Although, if we're talking about an outright brawl: Cthulu. Every time.

Fera Tian

2011-09-09, 11:14 PM

Wasn't Cthulhu taken out with a steamship?

I'm pretty sure Batman has access to a heck of a lot more than that.

Though, it depends. Which version of Batman is this?

Sorta, he gets awoken prematurely, kills a few people and then chases the last two. Cthulhu gets rammed with a ship, explodes, goes "**** it" and goes back to sleep.

Mr.Bookworm

2011-09-09, 11:17 PM

Wasn't Cthulhu taken out with a steamship?

They temporarily set him back. He immediately starts regenerating after they put the steamship through his head, and then gets dragged back down with Rl'yeh to take another another nap.

I am going to fall back on the good old answer of "Batman wins everything with prep time", also assuming that this is just Batman, and he can't call in the Justice League to chuck Cthulhu into the sun. If Batman is told "Hey you gotta fight ancient sea god when he rises in a year, good luck with that", he stands an okay chance, I think. This is presumably some sort of Batman/Mythos crossover, and there's certainly information floating around about Cthulhu that he could use to devise countermeasures.

If he gets thrown into the classical blank white room and has Cthulhu plopped down on the other side of the room, he's kinda effed. I don't remember Batman ever carrying around nuclear-scale armaments on his person, which is what you would need to do any sort of harm to Cthulhu that he wouldn't laugh at (if we're taking the CoC roleplaying game as canon, he would shrug off those, too).

Mystic Muse

2011-09-09, 11:19 PM

Sorta, he gets awoken prematurely, kills a few people and then chases the last two. Cthulhu gets rammed with a ship, explodes, goes "**** it" and goes back to sleep.

Sounds like what I would do.:smalltongue:

…Sorry if this came across as mean spirited, but I really hate the level of fanboying of Batman, and am worried that I may grow irreversibly bitter toward a character I loved. :smallfrown:

Yeah, sometimes, fanboying and fangirling can really turn you off of something. I don't really blame you for that. I'm certainly guilty of it sometimes.

Thanqol

2011-09-09, 11:21 PM

Does Batman have time to prepare?

Fera Tian

2011-09-09, 11:39 PM

Does Batman have time to prepare?

If he notices cultist activities.

Elana

2011-09-10, 12:18 AM

That is easy,
Batman opens a boom tube and sends Cthulhu to Apocalypse.

Two problems solved.

Of course batmans behavior has changed several times in the last 70 years.

In the early days he would have started out with machine gus ad build his way up to missiles.

Later he would just have used Bat Anti Old One Repellent.

Or tricked Batmite into dealing with that problem himself.

And today Grayson(can't use his first name) would call in help, as he realizes that he can't fight a great old one all by himself.
(Bruce is too busy traveling over the world recruiting batmans :P )

the_druid_droid

2011-09-10, 12:39 AM

Later he would just have used Bat Anti Old One Repellent.

May have to change my answer just because of how much I love this idea.

Mando Knight

2011-09-10, 12:58 AM

Batman is immune to insanity/mind effects.
He's not so much immune as he is able to get around it. Main psyche goes absolutely nuts? His mind reboots to an alternate personality that's even more Batman than before. Psychosis-inducing drugs? Batman's hallucinations let him fight the bad guys even if he believes them to be imaginary at the time.

A martial artist with a few high tech toys verses a Great Old One? I think you'd have a better chance of taking down Dr. Manhattan with a slingshot.
Tachyonic slingshot. Batman probably made one just in case.

Fjolnir

2011-09-10, 01:18 AM

He's not so much immune as he is able to get around it. Main psyche goes absolutely nuts? His mind reboots to an alternate personality that's even more Batman than before. Psychosis-inducing drugs? Batman's hallucinations let him fight the bad guys even if he believes them to be imaginary at the time.

That reminds me of an episode of Batman Beyond when someone tries to convince people that Bruce Wayne is hearing voices and going insane. At the end he says "I knew I couldn't be talking to myself" and Terry asks "How did you know?" Bruce replies "The voice called me Bruce, I never call myself Bruce"

Friv

2011-09-10, 02:12 AM

Yeah, if Cthulu is fully awoken, Batman is doomed, because that's not the sort of threat that he fights. But a storyline about Batman racing to stop the Old One's awakening, culminating in him putting Cthulu back to sleep by the skin of his teeth? That, he could manage.

Alternately, he could give a call to Aquaman, who could do it for him. (Just don't call Superman. Seriously, don't. Pretty sure Cthulu qualifies as magic, and a gibbering insane Superman would not be a good thing.)

dehro

2011-09-10, 02:57 AM

Cthulhu fhtagn and/or takes a few hits and regenerates...

Batman dies of old age after having repeatedly beaten the crap out of Cthulu without having much other effect than to put him to sleep for a while.
When I say beaten the crap, I actually mean used his wealth and tech to throw big stuff at Cthulhu, because there's not much else he can do against him without the ancient one simply sitting on top of him until he turns purple and his head explodes.

now it may take a while (at least until everybody at DC comics dies or the company goes bankrupt..because I don't see them ever let batman die otherwise)

but yeah

Cthulhu wins

Mx.Silver

2011-09-10, 04:17 AM

Cthulhu, no contest whatsoever. You're pitting an immortal margical star beast who's very nature trnascends mortal thought against a human who could be killed from a lucky blow to the head.
And to anyone who wants to throw in the 'enough prep time' canard, please answer exactly how much prep-time is 'enough' (because anyone can win any match-up with potentially infinite prep) and, assuming this amount of time isn't longer than Batman's life-span, then answer why Cthulhu and/or aren't doing aything significant to increase their odds in this same time period.

turkishproverb

2011-09-10, 04:27 AM

...

A metric TON of this depends upon what you mean by "win" for each side.

Threeshades

2011-09-10, 04:35 AM

I think the premise of batman being immune to insanity is preposterous. That's like Inigo Montoya's father not having been killed.

Ravens_cry

2011-09-10, 04:45 AM

I think the premise of batman being immune to insanity is preposterous. That's like Inigo Montoya's father not having been killed.
I think the Joker would be a better example of "Immunity by Insanity by virtue of already being Insane". But even he wasn't immune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiEWL7o4KbU&feature=related)to Aces psychic powers.
Nor was Batman incidentally.
As for Cthulhu verses Batsy, well, drive back to slumber I see being doable.
But a forever solution? No way.
No way in hell, heaven, Earth, Asgard, Midgard, or Niflheim.
Not in the deepest pit of Tartarus, not on the highest peak of Mt. Olympus.
In short, no.

Aotrs Commander

2011-09-10, 05:08 AM

Later he would just have used Bat Anti Old One Repellent.

And now I want to see a Adam West Batman verses Cthulu (who would be like some dude in a rubber suit that would make Power Ranger blush) fight, because it would be Hilariously Awesome.

ZAP!!!

POW!!!

KER-RASH!!!

FTANG!!!

paddyfool

2011-09-10, 05:28 AM

Whenever Superheroes vs Mythos comes up, I always find myself thinking of this comic, and the next few which follow it (http://www.goominet.com/unspeakable-vault/vault/215/):

http://www.goominet.com/uploads/tx_cenostripviewer/w006-super.jpg

Geddoe

2011-09-10, 05:39 AM

…Sorry if this came across as mean spirited, but I really hate the level of fanboying of Batman, and am worried that I may grow irreversibly bitter toward a character I loved. :smallfrown:

Yeah, but eventually you will just start to hate the ridiculous fanboying of Cthulu mythos instead.

On topic: Cthulhu if Batman's prep work can not involve talking to the Justice League, "Batman" if Batman is allowed to recruit any of the more super members of the Justice League or derivative groups. Power Girl, Superman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter or any of the other super duper ones take Cthulu to the cleaners.

For any Cthulu vs topic, the first question you ask is: Is the challenger a Kryptonian or able to call a Kryptonian? If yes Cthulhu is dropped in the first. There are other questions, but for right now we will just stick to the first.

Cthulu doesn't cause madness because of some weird magic aura, the people go mad in the stories because they can't comprehend that humanity is pointless and worthless in Lovecraft(and because Lovecraft heroes are big wimps mentally). I don't see Batman or any other superhero really caring about that.

Mx.Silver

2011-09-10, 05:43 AM

Yeah, but eventually you will just start to hate the ridiculous fanboying of Cthulu mythos instead.

Which would be a problem if various Old Ones/Eldar Gods kept popping up in versus threads in fights they can't really be expected to win and yet have a ton of people trying to crowbar plot convenience into their list of advantages just to give them a victory.
It's a less widespread annoyance, is what I'm trying to say.

Prime32

2011-09-10, 06:42 AM

If Batman is allowed to bring in the Justice League, Diniverse!Hawkgirl has canonically killed Cthuulhu. So yeah...

Ravens_cry

2011-09-10, 06:50 AM

If Batman is allowed to bring in the Justice League, Diniverse!Hawkgirl has canonically killed Cthuulhu. So yeah...
No, it was Icthultu (http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/The_Terror_Beyond), Cthulhu's hick cousin.
Personally, I thought the choice of voice acting for Mr. Expy was rather . . .narmful, like a stereotypically lisp ridden nerd.
Which was too bad, because the Hawkgirl/Solomon Grundy dynamic was excellent in my opinion.

Devonix

2011-09-10, 07:03 AM

Axolotl

2011-09-10, 07:24 AM

Cen

2011-09-10, 07:29 AM

Uhm... Actually i think it already happened... I remember ages ago reading some comic (I haven't bought it I just read it in store) about Batman with Etrigan's help defeating Cthulu-like monster.

quick google - yup it was "The Doom That Came to Gotham"

so yeah, Batman wins.

Dienekes

2011-09-10, 07:55 AM

Batmans has difficulty dealing with a clown that has mental health problems I'm fairly sure Cthulhu can take him. Seriously Batman is just not on the same level as Cthulhu, for all his ridiculous traits there simply isn't anything Batman can do that will hurt Cthulhu. If the stars are right then Cthulhu will wake up and destroy him and there isn't anything he can do about it.

Admittedly this is the clown with mental health problems who has tricked gods into granting him their power before, turned all of DCs super villains into insane copies of himself, developed DNA splicing technology to make himself immortal, and has talked back to the Devil claiming they were on even footing and getting away with it.

Anyway my thoughts aren't exactly original. If it comes to fisticuffs Bats looses. However he can take on the cultists with relative ease and figure out what they're up to. At best he can take preventative measures that could last his lifetime. And if worst comes to worst he has a boat, a jet, and a car to try and ram at Cthulhu's head.

WalkingTarget

2011-09-10, 08:43 AM

People speak of Cthulhu driving people crazy like it is an assured thing... It is not. Most people cannot handle the sight of the old one but that is because of them seeing something or being in the presence of something that their brains simply cannot handle.

Batman has literally seen everything imaginable. He's been to Hell itself, seen the birth and death of the Universe. He's had both the Devil and the god of evil work with absolute focus to break his mind and spirit. He's seen Old gods New gods and everything in between.

He's seen the equivalent of Cthulhu and even greater beings and fought them.

Can Batman physically harm Cthulhu by himself, no of course not. Does he have access to technology that has defeated old gods. Yes he does. This has nothing to do with Batman being invincible. It has to do with the scale of threats that the DCU has dealt with.

This, more or less. Look, I'm about as big of a Lovecraft fan as you'll find (well, at least on a site that's not Lovecraft-specific like Yog-Sothoth.com) but one of the base assumptions of Lovecraft's universe is that humanity is utterly insignificant on a cosmic scale. There is nothing special about us and we're so useless that we cannot even begin to comprehend the true nature of reality.

In DC's continuity this is patently not the case. The settings are not compatible. However, I think this would be a much more interesting match up with a different hero on DC's end of things. Sure, insanity is a theme in Batman's mythos, but the cultists are the only real level on which Batman operates on his own (JLA stuff not withstanding). That could be an interesting comic arc, actually.

If the big C is allowed to wake up, I think it might be more interesting for more of the heavy-hitters (power-wise). Green Lantern probably has justification as the cosmic-scale threats would be in his jurisdiction and the fear vs. will theme would apply. Also, maybe the Martian Manhunter (or any other telepaths/psychics) due to Cthulhu's worldwide mental influence. Just my opinions, though.

Tiki Snakes

2011-09-10, 08:53 AM

I think it would make an excellent series of comics, actually.

But, yeah. Chances of Cthulhu waking up once the cultists have given the game away? Small. Cthulhu is vulnerable to precisely the kind of plot device that Batman specialises in. He either never wakes up, or does so breifly enough to provide a truly badass cover, then goes back to sleepytown.

Howler Dagger

2011-09-10, 09:01 AM

Cthulhu, hands down. Some loser with a cool cape, or a GOD? Also, if Batman is able to call in the justice league, why cant Cthulhu call in his family, Idh-yaa (mate) Kassogtha (Also mate, and sister), Nctosa (Daughter by Kassogtha), Nctolhu (Twin of Nctosa), and Cthylaa , who is his daughter by Idh-yaa and is destined to give birth to him once he dies. Plus Dagon &Hydra with the Deep Ones. Plus the Star Spawn

Axolotl

2011-09-10, 09:31 AM

Admittedly this is the clown with mental health problems who has tricked gods into granting him their power before, turned all of DCs super villains into insane copies of himself, developed DNA splicing technology to make himself immortal, and has talked back to the Devil claiming they were on even footing and getting away with it.Well there's nothing like a good vs thread to remind people how stupid certain continuities can get.

Anyway my thoughts aren't exactly original. If it comes to fisticuffs Bats looses. However he can take on the cultists with relative ease and figure out what they're up to. At best he can take preventative measures that could last his lifetime. And if worst comes to worst he has a boat, a jet, and a car to try and ram at Cthulhu's head.Taking out cultists doesn't affect anything and raming Cthulhu will only slow him for a moment while he reforms.

Dienekes

2011-09-10, 09:44 AM

Well there's nothing like a good vs thread to remind people how stupid certain continuities can get.

If that's what you think of comic books. Though admittedly, each I listed were very good stories in and of themselves, except the DNA splice one had a bit of an iffy ending.

But that's the point. Batman isn't just a mad man with a cape and some tools, the Joker isn't just an insane lunatic with a penchant for bright colors. These are two of the smartest most competent characters in DCU. Their purpose and story is in demonstrating that they are superheroes and villains. Sure they don't have powers but they are all the more deadly and dangerous for it. They don't need them because they already are on the same level as Superman, the Martian Manhunter, et al.

Calling Batman "some loser with a cape" as SheepInDisguise put it is the equivalent as calling Cthulhu "some big freak with a squid head." Both are dramatic oversimplifications of the mythos involving both characters.

Kindablue

2011-09-10, 09:45 AM

May have to change my answer just because of how much I love this idea.

Are your dreams being haunted by visions of non-euclidean cityscapes? Do you hear the flapping of membranous wings outside your window at night? Then Elder Sign® may be able to help you! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWT07iRvI9M)

Howler Dagger

2011-09-10, 10:03 AM

Calling Batman "some loser with a cape" as SheepInDisguise put it is the equivalent as calling Cthulhu "some big freak with a squid head." Both are dramatic oversimplifications of the mythos involving both characters.
Even in that case the big freak with a squid head would beat the loser with a cape :smallamused:

Traab

2011-09-10, 10:39 AM

Devonix

2011-09-10, 11:01 AM

You cant "beat" cthulu, you can at best delay him. Id say yes to batman being able to thwart one of cthulus cult plans to bring him back, but a straight up victory or death match between the two? Its silly imo.

Explain why Cthulu can't be beaten. If you are talking about the rules of the universe he is from you are dealing with a far lower scale of power than the DC Universe. Which has the Lords of Order and many other beings on a scale of power with or above the Old Ones.

Cthulhu isn't even the most powerful creature in his universe. are you saying that none of the other old ones or star gods can "beat" him?

Kindablue

2011-09-10, 11:14 AM

Explain why Cthulu can't be beaten.

Book says so.

If you are talking about the rules of the universe he is from you are dealing with a far lower scale of power than the DC Universe. Which has the Lords of Order and many other beings on a scale of power with or above the Old Ones.

The whole point of Lovecraft's "gods" is that we don't know anything about them, so you can't really say that.

Uhm... Actually i think it already happened... I remember ages ago reading some comic (I haven't bought it I just read it in store) about Batman with Etrigan's help defeating Cthulu-like monster.

quick google - yup it was "The Doom That Came to Gotham"

Holdup. There was a Batman book where Batman wins at the end? Sorry, I just don't buy that.

Traab

2011-09-10, 11:18 AM

Explain why Cthulu can't be beaten. If you are talking about the rules of the universe he is from you are dealing with a far lower scale of power than the DC Universe. Which has the Lords of Order and many other beings on a scale of power with or above the Old Ones.

Cthulhu isn't even the most powerful creature in his universe. are you saying that none of the other old ones or star gods can "beat" him?

Im saying that there are clashing universal orders here. In lovecrafts universe, old gods are unknowable, unbeatable entities beyond human understanding if I am accurate in what ive learned. As batman is human, he shouldnt be capable of COMPREHENDING cthulu, let alone defeating it. Yes, batman has faced gods before, he even put darkseid in a fricking headlock, im just saying that as written, cthulu, like any other of these beings shouldnt be beatable in the sense of this vs match. You can defeat whatever current plot is in motion, you can delay things, but defeating cthulu itself? No.

Devonix

2011-09-10, 11:26 AM

Im saying that there are clashing universal orders here. In lovecrafts universe, old gods are unknowable, unbeatable entities beyond human understanding if I am accurate in what ive learned. As batman is human, he shouldnt be capable of COMPREHENDING cthulu, let alone defeating it. Yes, batman has faced gods before, he even put darkseid in a fricking headlock, im just saying that as written, cthulu, like any other of these beings shouldnt be beatable in the sense of this vs match. You can defeat whatever current plot is in motion, you can delay things, but defeating cthulu itself? No.

Lovecraft's universe is about beating down humanity by saying that they are less signifigant than dust motes and if they knew for a moment what was really going on that the average human mind would implode. Batman is from a Universe where humanity and the human spirit triumphing means something. Yes Batman can comprehend Cthuhlu. He's from a universe where humanity was designed to do just that. not Batman, Humanity as a whole in the DCU was created for that purpose.

Lamech

2011-09-10, 11:30 AM

Isn't cthulhu stunned by a steamship to the head? I mean really? A steamship to the head? That isn't exactly super tough.
Oh, and he reforms? Not regrows new parts? Does he have some sort of uber-magic that lets him blast missiles and such out of the sky before they hit him or is he just squishy?

Cthulhu would get locked down by missiles and cannons have his pieces get picked up and thrown into the sun. I'm sure after the sun goes dark he'll get better, but that is a long way away.

Tirian

2011-09-10, 11:32 AM

Batmans has difficulty dealing with a clown that has mental health problems I'm fairly sure Cthulhu can take him.

At the same time, Batman has not had difficulty dealing with vengeful gods and has done more than his part facing legions of people with nigh-omnipotent powers of fear. And if Cthulhu is bringing in other Elder Gods, then you should allow Batman to speed-dial any of about a dozen of his friends who can change the alignment of the stars either physically or magically.

As WalkingTarget suggested, Lovecraft just didn't give us enough data to talk fairly about a fight like this. Cthulhu is a big fish in a small pond, and no matter how very very big he is, we didn't see enough to know how he'd stack up in other ponds.

Howler Dagger

2011-09-10, 11:47 AM

And if Cthulhu is bringing in other Elder Gods, then you should allow Batman to speed-dial any of about a dozen of his friends who can change the alignment of the stars either physically or magically.
First: Minor Nitpicking: the Elder Gods were the enemies of the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods
Ill assume you mean other GOO/OG. I only put them into play because people were referencing Batmans friends. I only brought in his family and servents (Dagon, Hydra, the Deep Ones, and Star Spawn). I forgot the demon trilogy, Ghatanothoa, Ythogtha, and Zoth-Ommog, who are also children of Cthulhu by Idh-yaa. If you bring in Shub-Niggurath and the Dark Young, Batman stands even less of a chance.

Prime32

2011-09-10, 11:48 AM

Im saying that there are clashing universal orders here. In lovecrafts universe, old gods are unknowable, unbeatable entities beyond human understanding if I am accurate in what ive learned. As batman is human, he shouldnt be capable of COMPREHENDING cthulu, let alone defeating it. Yes, batman has faced gods before, he even put darkseid in a fricking headlock, im just saying that as written, cthulu, like any other of these beings shouldnt be beatable in the sense of this vs match. You can defeat whatever current plot is in motion, you can delay things, but defeating cthulu itself? No.Lovecraft Old Gods are incomprehensible to Lovecraft protagonists. Black people are also incomprehensible to Lovecraft protagonists. Many of the things Batman has fought would easily drive one of those guys mad.

A Lovecraft protagonist, upon discovering how powerless he is, turns into a gibbering wreck. Bruce Wayne even as a child, upon discovering how powerless he is, trains until people who can move planets are afraid of him.

Elana

2011-09-10, 11:52 AM

You cant "beat" cthulu, you can at best delay him. Id say yes to batman being able to thwart one of cthulus cult plans to bring him back, but a straight up victory or death match between the two? Its silly imo.

I dare to say that knocking someone so hard on the head that he sleeps for 300 million years, count as beating them.
(And that happened to Cthulhu in the past)

And sure Cthulhu won't stay dead, no matter what you do..but surprise the same is true for everyone else in the DC Universe.
So Cthulhu can't permanently kill Batman either.

Axolotl

2011-09-10, 11:54 AM

I want to point out that Cthulhu drives people insane by being concious not by looking at him or anything or comprehending him or some sort of super-existential angst. Other lovecraft stories feature people being mentaly scared by seeing cosmic horrors but int the case of Cthulhu it's explicitly a some sort of psychic side effect of him being awake sends people all over the planet insane.

Starbuck_II

2011-09-10, 12:13 PM

That reminds me of an episode of Batman Beyond when someone tries to convince people that Bruce Wayne is hearing voices and going insane. At the end he says "I knew I couldn't be talking to myself" and Terry asks "How did you know?" Bruce replies "The voice called me Bruce, I never call myself Bruce"

Yeah, that was a good moment.

Cthulhu, hands down. Some loser with a cool cape, or a GOD? Also, if Batman is able to call in the justice league, why cant Cthulhu call in his family, Idh-yaa (mate) Kassogtha (Also mate, and sister), Nctosa (Daughter by Kassogtha), Nctolhu (Twin of Nctosa), and Cthylaa , who is his daughter by Idh-yaa and is destined to give birth to him once he dies. Plus Dagon &Hydra with the Deep Ones. Plus the Star Spawn
Please, he isn't really a god. He is just a high Priest. Gods don't worship other beings.

Aquaman is canonally able to mind control Cthulhu. There is even a comic picture that has him riding the creature. So he doesn't even have mindblank.

I dare to say that knocking someone so hard on the head that he sleeps for 300 million years, count as beating them.
(And that happened to Cthulhu in the past)

And sure Cthulhu won't stay dead, no matter what you do..but surprise the same is true for everyone else in the DC Universe.
So Cthulhu can't permanently kill Batman either.

Agreed. No one asked batman to kill Cthulhu. Beating him isn't killing him. We just need to beat him. Sure, regenerate for another million years. Doesn't change that you just lose to a "weak little human".

the_druid_droid

2011-09-10, 12:48 PM

Are your dreams being haunted by visions of non-euclidean cityscapes? Do you hear the flapping of membranous wings outside your window at night? Then Elder Sign® may be able to help you! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWT07iRvI9M)

Huh, I wondered what that membranous flapping was!

Also, I'm gonna cross-quote something from another thread, since I think it's relevant to the whole "Cthulu's only power is existentially-angsting you to death":

So forget the already eroded anthropocentrism whose dissolution is a theme in Lovecraft -- that's part of the insanity, perhaps; but isn't the lion's share of going bat ****ing nuts from visions of having your soul chewed on by fourteen million mouths for a time longer than the earth is old while being forced into a staring contest mind-rape with as many goat eyes on an inside-out planet that is only moss? Just from hearing ululating pipers in the swamps at dusk? That sure would turn me into a gibbering miscreant. Er, more of one.

This is why I'm coming down on the Mythos side, and why I generally disagree with mythos portrayals in comic book form (not that the story it leads to isn't good, but we all know who has to win and who has to be nerfed so DC or Marvel can keep raking in royalties).

H Birchgrove

2011-09-10, 12:57 PM

You don't get it. They are best of friends. :smallamused::smalltongue:

WalkingTarget

2011-09-10, 01:34 PM

Aquaman is canonally able to mind control Cthulhu. There is even a comic picture that has him riding the creature. So he doesn't even have mindblank.

Point of order: if you're talking about the image I'm familiar with (the one that's used in this (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj5c86HWub1qz7rtco1_500.jpg)), it looked decidedly like fanart to me. Do we have a citation of it being from an in-continuity source?

Edit:

I want to point out that Cthulhu drives people insane by being concious not by looking at him or anything or comprehending him or some sort of super-existential angst. Other lovecraft stories feature people being mentaly scared by seeing cosmic horrors but int the case of Cthulhu it's explicitly a some sort of psychic side effect of him being awake sends people all over the planet insane.

Two ways it goes: I chalked the rise of cultist activity in the story to some "sensitives" getting a glimpse of what the Old Ones were like by picking up on some of Cthulhu's dreams and are deluded into believing that it is possible for them to become like him, the poor deluded sods. Alternately, the narrator (and his correspondents) learn about what's going on from a variety of artists as well. They're not so much going crazy, only themes crop up worldwide in their artistic output as they use that as an outlet for the strange mental influence they have going on. Cthulhu's dreams don't necessarily make one crazy, even if you're picking up on them.

The only incidence of mind-shattering gibbering that happens is to the people that actually see him in the pseudo-flesh - and not even all of them. It's certainly not a good thing to be on the receiving end of the mental transmissions, but insanity isn't a sure thing.

Kindablue

2011-09-10, 02:01 PM

I chalked the rise of cultist activity in the story to some "sensitives" getting a glimpse of what the Old Ones were like by picking up on some of Cthulhu's dreams and are deluded into believing that it is possible for them to become like him, the poor deluded sods.

Sort of. They wanted to become like the Old Ones in a philosophical sense, though, not a physical one.

The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom

WalkingTarget

2011-09-10, 02:12 PM

Sort of. They wanted to become like the Old Ones in a philosophical sense, though, not a physical one.

Yes, but that still implies that they believe that the human mind is capable of actually understanding what the Old Ones were like, philosophically. They have an interpretation, but I'd posit that it's not really possible (or at least that was the position I was taking there). I somehow doubt that if the Old Ones wake up that they'd give two figs for these humans who want to emulate them.

Kindablue

2011-09-10, 02:29 PM

Yes, but that still implies that they believe that the human mind is capable of actually understanding what the Old Ones were like, philosophically. They have an interpretation, but I'd posit that it's not really possible (or at least that was the position I was taking there). I somehow doubt that if the Old Ones wake up that they'd give two figs for these humans who want to emulate them.

I don't think the cultists are looking for a considerate god. Cthulhu is going to teach them how to be an Old One by example. They are deluded, of course, but, being the degenerate mutts and savages that they are, that is to be expected. http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/emoticons/rolleyes/images/emrolleyes1.gif

WalkingTarget

2011-09-10, 02:36 PM

I don't think the cultists are looking for a considerate god. Cthulhu is going to teach them how to be an Old One by example. They are deluded, of course, but, being the degenerate mutts and savages that they are, that is to be expected. http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/emoticons/rolleyes/images/emrolleyes1.gif

I think we're entirely in agreement here. I can't tell if you think otherwise for some reason.

Kindablue

2011-09-10, 02:51 PM

I think we're entirely in agreement here. I can't tell if you think otherwise for some reason.

No, we are. I wasn't sure if the irony was going to be obvious with only text, so the smiley was supposed to be rolling his little eyes at the racism in that last sentence.

dehro

2011-09-10, 04:30 PM

so,.. where does this all happen?
if we're in DC verse and Cthulhu is merelly reduced to yet another wannabe ultimate terror, then I can see why the bat guy would be able to beat him... if we were in Cthulhu-verse then the bat would crap his pants and be utterly squashed (the whole "beating Cthulhu's minions so he doesn't wake up" doesn't make much sense because that way there is no confrontation at all and the purpose of the thread fails)
if they were to fight on neutral ground, then they could only count on their personal skills and attributes.. Cthulhu is basically a mountain sized can of madness, with a headfull of tentacles an an aura of "if you try and get close to me you'll turn into a bubbling buffoon" that is big enough to break through different universes..
Batman is a ninja with an utility belt and a cape...
yeah... a cape (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R2aW03pwL0)

Starbuck_II

2011-09-10, 05:50 PM

Point of order: if you're talking about the image I'm familiar with (the one that's used in this (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj5c86HWub1qz7rtco1_500.jpg)), it looked decidedly like fanart to me. Do we have a citation of it being from an in-continuity source?

In Silver age, he was mention as controlling control anything that lived on or near the sea. Cthulhu lives in the sea (in his little village, but regardless that is in the sea).
Later, he came back as a zombie (went evil Druid) but "got better" and returned to life as a Silver Age version (meaning he controls Cthulhu again).

In "Batman, the Brave and Bold", he turns water into a sword (matter transformation) and throws water based Hadokens.

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1739827.html
Here he decided to not control Cthulhu but kicks his butt.

WalkingTarget

2011-09-10, 06:24 PM

In Silver age, he was mention as controlling control anything that lived on or near the sea. Cthulhu lives in the sea (in his little village, but regardless that is in the sea).

Which is a lot like saying that Voldemort would serve Sauron because it was stated that all evil forces served him (wow, there's a 4+ year old forum reference for you). Absolute statements made in one universe don't necessarily translate across to others. That way lies madness.

Also: Cthulhu is asleep/dead/imprisoned in the sea - he's got a big sqidface, sure, but he's not indigenous to Earth, let alone its oceans.

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1739827.html
Here he decided to not control Cthulhu but kicks his butt.

See, that looks interesting. What's the context? Those unconnected pages don't give a lot of detail.

Moglorosh

2011-09-10, 06:41 PM

Don't the Ghostbusters beat Cthulhu with an electrified roller coaster?

Axolotl

2011-09-10, 07:06 PM

In Silver age, he was mention as controlling control anything that lived on or near the sea. Cthulhu lives in the sea (in his little village, but regardless that is in the sea).
Later, he came back as a zombie (went evil Druid) but "got better" and returned to life as a Silver Age version (meaning he controls Cthulhu again).Except Cthulhu doesn't live in the sea, it lives beneath the sea. Seriusly water is part of its prison for crying out loud.

Mewtarthio

2011-09-10, 08:53 PM

No way in hell, heaven, Earth, Asgard, Midgard, or Niflheim.
Not in the deepest pit of Tartarus, not on the highest peak of Mt. Olympus.
In short, no.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. The DCU does have gods. I'm not all that familiar with them, but surely something on par with Darkseid would be able to permanently kill Cthulhu. No, you can't bring up that "weak gods of Earth" thing from Dream Quest, since Cthulhu is nowhere near the same tier as Nyarlathotep (Cthulhu is also the subject of much exaggeration).

Fera Tian

2011-09-11, 12:36 AM

Even in that case the big freak with a squid head would beat the loser with a cape :smallamused:

Batman doesn't have to fist fight Cthulhu. He just has to prevent the awakening until he dies.

Elana

2011-09-11, 01:14 AM

And since a temporary victory is enough to be considered a win. (Who cares if he wakes up in a thousand years again, that is after all the problem of someone else.
Even in Lovecraft stories Cthulhu was defeated by humans.

Sure a single guy with no tools has no chance, but ram him with a ship and he goes down again.

Cthulhu on his own is weaksauce. (Comparatively speaking)
The destroying humankind thing comes from the fact that he isn't alone.
There is all his star spawn and if you face a million beings of that species you have need for a few more batmans :)

dehro

2011-09-11, 02:45 AM

Batman doesn't have to fist fight Cthulhu. He just has to prevent the awakening until he dies.

yes...except if they never get to a confrontation...it is in fact, not a confrontation..
it's like saying I won a fight with Muhammad Ali because he forgot about it and was sleeping in the locker room... technically true, but hardly in the spirit of an actual fight, which is what these threads are all about.
in other words, if by Cthulhu-verse rules, a state of slumber obtained without a fight is a win, then we must assume we are in fact not in DC-verse where this would not hold true... in such a context though, Cthulhu is an elder whatyacallit, and Batman is just a guy in a cape.. mentally unstable enough to fall easy prey to anguish, terror and insanity, Cthulhu's favourite work-tools.
in Cthulhu-verse "single guy without tools" pretty much is the definition of 99% of those who take the fight to the elder ones..

turkishproverb

2011-09-11, 04:33 AM

It's more like saying I won because I knocked out his trainer and guards, then exhausted him, and thus ensured Muhammad Ali wouldn't be able to wake up for the match, thus forcing him into a forfeit.

I won, technically. Dirty or no.

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 05:31 AM

Batman doesn't have to fist fight Cthulhu. He just has to prevent the awakening until he dies.A) Thats not a fight between Cthulhu and Batman. B) Even if it were then victory would go to Cthulhu since Batman would be dead while simply be asleep. c) Cthulhu awakens when the stars are right, Batman has no way of controling this and thus can't prevent his awkening.

turkishproverb

2011-09-11, 05:43 AM

...

Not all fights are to the death, you know that right? Or are you saying that anyone who outlived Ali after he beat them in the ring managed to win?

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 07:40 AM

...

Not all fights are to the death, you know that right? Or are you saying that anyone who outlived Ali after he beat them in the ring managed to win?The end of the proposed plan was Batman dead and Cthulhu asleep, Cthulhu comes off much better from that senario.

turkishproverb

2011-09-11, 07:47 AM

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 08:21 AM

Not really. Batman protected Gotham. Next time the stars are right, chances are it'll be after the people of earth have long since emigrated away, and there are already much greater threats than cthulhu out there in the DCU.But this isn't about Batman defending Gotham. It's Batman vs Cthulhu, Batman ensuring he's dead before Cthulhu can fight him is not a victory for Batman.

turkishproverb

2011-09-11, 08:39 AM

It is by Batman's standards.

Again, if there's no fight and Batman shows, it's cthulhu that failed to appear and loses by default.

Also, I reiterate: Fights are not all to the death, and "who would win" isn't even a fight per se.

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 08:46 AM

It is by Batman's standards.

Again, if there's no fight and Batman shows, it's cthulhu that failed to appear and loses by default.Except in this case Batman kills himself before the fight, making him lose by default.

Also, I reiterate: Fights are not all to the death, and "who would win" isn't even a fight per se.It may not be to the death but to win you need to defeat your oponent in some way, postponing the fight until after you're dead is not defeating someone.

This is all moot anyway since Batman has no way of stopping Cthulhu's awakening.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 09:03 AM

Except in this case Batman kills himself before the fight, making him lose by default.

It may not be to the death but to win you need to defeat your oponent in some way, postponing the fight until after you're dead is not defeating someone.

This is all moot anyway since Batman has no way of stopping Cthulhu's awakening.

If this was the case then no Hero who's sealed away an ancient evil for a thousand years has ever beaten that evil.

Also why would Batman kill himself before the fight. Not even every human In Lovecraft went crazy.

Kageru

2011-09-11, 09:35 AM

If batman foils the plan of some supervillain I would count that as a win even if batman never fights him directly and even if the later villain tries the same thing again. In this case the "plan" is waking up and by not letting him wake up batman wins. But I guess you could say that it's the plan of the Cultists since Cthulhu doesn't do all that much.

dehro

2011-09-11, 09:47 AM

no Hero who's sealed away an ancient evil for a thousand years has ever beaten that evil.

quite so..

:elan:DUN, DUNN, DUUNNNNN...

If batman foils the plan of some supervillain I would count that as a win even if batman never fights him directly and even if the later villain tries the same thing again. In this case the "plan" is waking up and by not letting him wake up batman wins. But I guess you could say that it's the plan of the Cultists since Cthulhu doesn't do all that much.

Actually no, the purpose of a Vs thread is not to establish who is better at bringing their "master plan" to completion or, adversely at twarthing it... or, if you like, "who is best at what they do?"
this is a "who walks out alive if you pit one against the other in a figurative cage?" kind of thing...
no contests results simply invalidate the premise and the purpose of the thread..all it would say is "it never happened, try again"

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 09:54 AM

If this was the case then no Hero who's sealed away an ancient evil for a thousand years has ever beaten that evil.Sealing something away generally does require defeating it. Preventing it from appearing on the other hand is no defeating it. For example if a group of DnD adventurers killed a cult that was summoning Orcus they don 't get the XP from defeationg Orcus because the weren't in any direct conflict with him.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 10:41 AM

This is all moot anyway since Batman has no way of stopping Cthulhu's awakening.

Cthulhu needs the stars to align perfectly to wake up, right? He could just go make a (hundred) star(s) supernova then, using the vast resources available to him as a member of the Justice League, assuring they can't align perfectly to allow Cthulhu to come back. And this is a plan I can come up with--Batman could do much better.

Mx.Silver

2011-09-11, 10:48 AM

Cthulhu needs the stars to align perfectly to wake up, right? He could just go make a (hundred) star(s) supernova then, using the vast resources available to him as a member of the Justice League, assuring they can't align perfectly to allow Cthulhu to come back. And this is a plan I can come up with--Batman could do much better.
If these 'resources' consist of something along the lines of 'getting Batman's more powerful friends to do it' then I don't think that's an option.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 11:05 AM

No, no, just the technology that I'm pretty sure he has access to. It's been a while since I've read the Silver Age comics, but I'm certain that some villains have, at some point, had plans to destroy the sun using some technology or another. If that technology exists, then blowing up a star in an uninhabited solar system shouldn't be too much of an issue for him.

Kageru

2011-09-11, 11:05 AM

Cthulhu needs the stars to align perfectly to wake up, right? He could just go make a (hundred) star(s) supernova then, using the vast resources available to him as a member of the Justice League, assuring they can't align perfectly to allow Cthulhu to come back. And this is a plan I can come up with--Batman could do much better.
Well if we speak about the alignment of the stars we tend to mean how they appear to be aligned to someone on earth and not their actual position(afterall some of the stars we see are long dead). If you take that interpretation a gigantic parasol to stop their light from reaching the earth might be enough.^^

mootoall

2011-09-11, 11:18 AM

I'm pretty sure that their appearance doesn't actually matter to Cthulhu, it's actually their position. Great Old One and all that.

dehro

2011-09-11, 01:14 PM

I'm pretty sure that their appearance doesn't actually matter to Cthulhu, it's actually their position. Great Old One and all that.

moot

preventing the waking up equates to preventing the match-up from happening, which in turn means th X Vs Y situation never happens.. which is contrary to the premise of forum Vs situations

Eakin

2011-09-11, 01:38 PM

Since when do all versus threads mean face-to-face slugfests? Big C was going to wake up and do bad, madness-inducing things, but thanks to his opponent's actions now he isn't going to achieve those goals.

That's a victory whether or not "opponents actions" refers to preventing his release or winning a fistfight.

Any chance of Batman finding out where Cthulu's sleepy time prison was and shunting it off somewhere else while he naps? Also, does the cultist activity actually matter in terms of causing the awakening or are they just crazy people preparing for the inevitable? I've never actually read the story.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 02:02 PM

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 02:12 PM

Not to mention, with even a small amount of prep before the big guy wakes up, if it *has* to be a face-to-face match, Batman wins anyway, since, as someone said before, it's trivial for him to put the Big C on a one-way express to Apocalypse.

I don't know if boom tubes would even work; the laws of physics kind of just end at his doorstep. Think of the sailor who was eaten by the angle that a wall connected to the floor in R'lyeh.

dehro

2011-09-11, 02:26 PM

Devonix

2011-09-11, 02:28 PM

mootoall

2011-09-11, 02:34 PM

They canonically work on Darkseid to pull him off Earth, and I think he's done worse things to the laws of physics. Not to mention that boom tubes don't really have much to do with the laws of physics in the first place.

Tono

2011-09-11, 02:35 PM

question: how do you prepare for that what is beyond comprehension, logic or capacity to even fathom?
this fabled "time to prepare" that batman should have..what is he going to do with it when by definition Cthulhu cannot be comprehended?
how do you plan for something you can't even understand? it's like asking a Homo Neandertalensis to define God and explain him to Marvin the Martian..except that, with about a bajilion years to teach language, philosophy, logics, cartoon lore, and science.. and a few more eons to actually understand God and "reduce him" into cartoon speak.. might be actually achieved.
understanding Cthulhu is per definition impossible..so..again:
how do you "prepare" to fight him? I haven't read Lovecraft in almost 20 years, but I'm rather convinced that those who managed to survive/put him to sleep/delay him..were pretty much making it up as they went, on account of it not being possible to really know what to expect... why should this not be true for Batman?

To easy answer to this question is that he parks a bat-boat outside of where the cultist are meeting and runs over Cthuloo when he appears.

The problem I have with people saying 'Batman stops the cultist' is that if he goes to the island to stop them, then chances are, like the sailors in The Call of Cthulu, there is a good chance just walking around or happening on the door he will accidently awaken Him. If he doesn't dude wakes up anyway. I'm not a major bat-man guy, but unless he is willing to carpet bomb the island(Which he may, like I said no real clue about batman other then a basic understanding of him)he can't stop him waking up. Hell, even that may not work.

To be fair though, if Batman is given time to prepare and we acknowledge that he can be a threat to Cthuloo, then it is only fair that Cthuloo knows that something dangerous waits for him.

dehro

2011-09-11, 02:36 PM

Different Universes

Humans in Lovecraft Universe can't comprehend him.

Humans in the DC Universe are built to handle such things.

ah..but I thought we were staging the fight on neutral ground?
Cthulhu carries within his very nature the definition of being "beyond our capacity for understanding"..does Batman, taken away from DC-verse keep all his ..well..superhuman qualities of exceptionality (not sure really how to define him/it)?? I'm guessing Superman would, on account of being by definition more than human..but this doesn't seem to apply to Batman.
the inbuilt assumption that comes with superheroes in DC-verse that they are better than us and therefore able to do a lot of things we can't, is purelly dependent on their powers and intrinsic qualities..and otherwise purelly a convention based on reputation... especially so for those who don't actually have superpowers as such, like batman.
devoided from the aura of badass that comes with being in DC-verse, batman is just a man with a fixation for bats. this isn't so for Cthulhu who carries his powers and nature within himself.
in other words, for Batman to be able to be a threat to Cthulhu, the stage has to necessarily be within DC-verse...any other option sees Batman fail miserably

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 02:40 PM

They canonically work on Darkseid to pull him off Earth, and I think he's done worse things to the laws of physics.
I don't see how that's different, really.

Not to mention that boom tubes don't really have much to do with the laws of physics in the first place.

I'll give that to you. I have no idea how boom tubes work, but I think everything has a lot to do with the laws of physics.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 02:42 PM

ah..but I thought we were staging the fight on neutral ground?
Cthulhu carries within his very nature the definition of being "beyond our capacity for understanding"..does Batman, taken away from DC-verse keep all his ..well..superhuman qualities of exceptionality (not sure really how to define him/it)?? I'm guessing Superman would, on account of being by definition more than human..but this doesn't seem to apply to Batman.
the inbuilt assumption that comes with superheroes in DC-verse that they are better than us and therefore able to do a lot of things we can't, is purelly dependent on their powers and intrinsic qualities..and otherwise purelly a convention based on reputation... especially so for those who don't actually have superpowers as such, like batman.
devoided from the aura of badass that comes with being in DC-verse, batman is just a man with a fixation for bats. this isn't so for Cthulhu who carries his powers and nature within himself.
in other words, for Batman to be able to be a threat to Cthulhu, the stage has to necessarily be within DC-verse...any other option sees Batman fail miserably

It has nothing to do with being a superhero, it has everything to do with Lovecrafts universe being about how insignifigant we are and how humanity cannot handle the big truths.

Humanity in the DC Universe is about humaninty when it comes down to it being capable of amazing things and that as a species there is nothing that is beyond them. Its not the Universe in a locational sense its the universe as in the writing style and tone. Batman is from stories where http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial

SowZ

2011-09-11, 02:44 PM

This.

It seems that in the context of the mythos, Cthulu is fairly resilient, and it's not clear that any human could take him down for good, especially if they tried doing it via physical damage.

On the other hand, the timescales involved when you start talking about Cthulu & co. are ridiculously long, so the best plan is to find a way to delay them during their window of opportunity, and let someone (or some species) else worry about the next awakening. Since knowledge tends to be the downfall as well as the occasional salvation of Lovecraft's characters (see The Dunwich Horror or Charles Dexter Ward) and Batman is fairly good at knowledge-gathering and finding his enemies' weakness (as opposed to Superman's hit-it-till-it-stops-moving approach) it's possible he could find a way to delay things and save the day/eon.

Although, if we're talking about an outright brawl: Cthulu. Every time.

The original story had one person KO him by ramming him with a big boat. Considering the force that boat had, we could keep knocking him out with Stinger missiles. Cthulu is no longer a physical threat to humanity at all. It is childishly easy to keep him down indefinitely via phyiscal means. It is his mental powers that are worth mentioning.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 02:48 PM

I don't see how that's different, really.

I'll give that to you. I have no idea how boom tubes work, but I think everything has a lot to do with the laws of physics.

Everything except Cthulhu? Comics and fantasy aren't supposed to be based on science Conservation of mass and other such things do not apply otherwise magic wouldn't work at all.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 02:50 PM

Everything except Cthulhu?

You're catching on.

dehro

2011-09-11, 02:52 PM

It has nothing to do with being a superhero, it has everything to do with Lovecrafts universe being about how insignifigant we are and how humanity cannot handle the big truths.

Humanity in the DC Universe is about humaninty when it comes down to it being capable of amazing things and that as a species there is nothing that is beyond them. Its not the Universe in a locational sense its the universe as in the writing style and tone. Batman is from stories where http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial

well..yes...but that's rather my point, really..
if we pit 2 creatures from 2 different universes and literary genres/styles and concepts one against the other, a common middle ground, somehow measurable, has to be found..otherwise we might as well drop the entire thing and forget about it.
to me, this common ground is their respective skills, powers and "definition of what they are", when it is relevant as is the case with Cthulhu
because if you take away his definition of otherworldly elder god of crapyourpants, all you're left with is something that definitely is not Cthulhu, a mountainsized squid with teeth...but then, what you get is a lopsided argument to begin with..namely a confrontation between Batman at peak shape and a creature that has the look of Cthulhu but is more like a badly scanned version of the real thing..hardly fair.
if we are to debate the "human resilience of spirit" put against the ultimate test of that resilience, whe're arguing phylosophy..I'd rather do that in a separate thread than one where we put a fictional superhero in a confrontation with an equally fictional elder god.

tyckspoon

2011-09-11, 02:56 PM

understanding Cthulhu is per definition impossible..so..again:
how do you "prepare" to fight him? I haven't read Lovecraft in almost 20 years, but I'm rather convinced that those who managed to survive/put him to sleep/delay him..were pretty much making it up as they went, on account of it not being possible to really know what to expect... why should this not be true for Batman?

Eldritch Horrors are.. not really all that special in the comic-book multiverses, that's why. Batman's preparation consists of calling one of his magically-inclined friends (Dr. Fate or Etrigan, probably, in the DCAU; I'm not sure who else is around in the full book canon at this point but Dr. Fate's whole schtick is knowing about and watching out for Cthulhu-type events), and says "hey, I'm gonna have to deal with some weird unknowable gribbly, whatcha got for me?" His contact whips up a mind-ward for him, gives Bats the talisman, and then Batman is free to throw flare grenades or whatever at Cthulhu until he gets tired.

Lamech

2011-09-11, 03:08 PM

The original story had one person KO him by ramming him with a big boat. Considering the force that boat had, we could keep knocking him out with Stinger missiles. Cthulu is no longer a physical threat to humanity at all. It is childishly easy to keep him down indefinitely via phyiscal means. It is his mental powers that are worth mentioning.
Indeed, Cthuhlu is a joke. He's like the martians from war of the worlds. If they attacked now the result would be "Ooohh... easy space travel. Wanna share? How do you live on mars anyway? We want to lea-" *heat ray* "The hell was that!?" *missile barrage* "Hmm... sweet technology."

mootoall

2011-09-11, 03:10 PM

The whole "Cthulhu really isn't that special in the DCU" thing is why this fight clearly goes to Batman. It was never a balanced fight to begin with. It's like you're saying "Let's pit Muhammad Ali against The Hulk, but The Hulk is affected by Ali's punches even though he normally wouldn't be."

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 03:11 PM

Eldritch Horrors are.. not really all that special in the comic-book multiverses, that's why. Batman's preparation consists of calling one of his magically-inclined friends (Dr. Fate or Etrigan, probably, in the DCAU; I'm not sure who else is around in the full book canon at this point but Dr. Fate's whole schtick is knowing about and watching out for Cthulhu-type events), and says "hey, I'm gonna have to deal with some weird unknowable gribbly, whatcha got for me?" His contact whips up a mind-ward for him, gives Bats the talisman, and then Batman is free to throw flare grenades or whatever at Cthulhu until he gets tired.Which would be great if Cthulhu had a weakness, but he doesn't. And if Batman can get aid from other DC heroes then Cthulhu should be able to get aid from the other Old Ones.

There are things in the DC universe that could take on Cthulhu but Batman isn't one of them.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 03:14 PM

well..yes...but that's rather my point, really..
if we pit 2 creatures from 2 different universes and literary genres/styles and concepts one against the other, a common middle ground, somehow measurable, has to be found..otherwise we might as well drop the entire thing and forget about it.
to me, this common ground is their respective skills, powers and "definition of what they are", when it is relevant as is the case with Cthulhu
because if you take away his definition of otherworldly elder god of crapyourpants, all you're left with is something that definitely is not Cthulhu, a mountainsized squid with teeth...but then, what you get is a lopsided argument to begin with..namely a confrontation between Batman at peak shape and a creature that has the look of Cthulhu but is more like a badly scanned version of the real thing..hardly fair.
if we are to debate the "human resilience of spirit" put against the ultimate test of that resilience, whe're arguing phylosophy..I'd rather do that in a separate thread than one where we put a fictional superhero in a confrontation with an equally fictional elder god.

If you take away that from Batman aka that Humanity is capable of handeling such things. then you don't have Batman you have a rich guy in a suit. Triumph of the Human spirit is what makes him Batman.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 03:15 PM

Fan

2011-09-11, 03:16 PM

If you take away that from Batman aka that Humanity is capable of handeling such things. then you don't have Batman you have a rich guy in a suit. Triumph of the Human spirit is what makes him Batman.

I thought it was the angst fueled life he led since his parents died, and his own crippling phobia of Bats, his martial arts ability, and his outfit made him Batman....

Batman by himself has trouble with The PENGUIN, Two Face (a normal, horribly maimed, guy with a gun), and Bane (someone not nearly as super strong as say.. Super man, or... a lot of people, and definitely not Cthulhu just by virtue of size.). How exactly is he supposed to win a flat out slugging match with Cthulhu?

I'm also pretty sure that in the up and coming Arkham City, he has trouble dealing with.. slightly crazy people with baseball bats. No super powers involved.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 03:22 PM

ah..but I thought we were staging the fight on neutral ground?
Cthulhu carries within his very nature the definition of being "beyond our capacity for understanding"..does Batman, taken away from DC-verse keep all his ..well..superhuman qualities of exceptionality (not sure really how to define him/it)?? I'm guessing Superman would, on account of being by definition more than human..but this doesn't seem to apply to Batman.
the inbuilt assumption that comes with superheroes in DC-verse that they are better than us and therefore able to do a lot of things we can't, is purelly dependent on their powers and intrinsic qualities..and otherwise purelly a convention based on reputation... especially so for those who don't actually have superpowers as such, like batman.
devoided from the aura of badass that comes with being in DC-verse, batman is just a man with a fixation for bats. this isn't so for Cthulhu who carries his powers and nature within himself.
in other words, for Batman to be able to be a threat to Cthulhu, the stage has to necessarily be within DC-verse...any other option sees Batman fail miserablyIt's not so much the DC universe. Lovecraft characters are really easy to drive insane, far more than real people, what with Lovecraft being a highly bigoted man living in the 1920s.

They go mad by trying to understand non-Euclidean space. Understanding non-Euclidean space is mandatory for anyone studying 3D graphics, let alone a maths degree, and it's not even a big subject. They go mad if they meet someone who had parents from different races. Um...

Devonix

2011-09-11, 03:23 PM

[QUOTE=Fan;11826594]I thought it was the angst fueled life he led since his parents died, and his own crippling phobia of Bats, his martial arts ability, and his outfit made him Batman....

Nope that stuff hasn't been true of the character in years. He as the saying goes Got over it a long time ago.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 03:24 PM

I thought it was the angst fueled life he led since his parents died, and his own crippling phobia of Bats, his martial arts ability, and his outfit made him Batman....

Batman by himself has trouble with The PENGUIN, Two Face (a normal, horribly maimed, guy with a gun), and Bane (someone not nearly as super strong as say.. Super man, or... a lot of people, and definitely not Cthulhu just by virtue of size.). How exactly is he supposed to win a flat out slugging match with Cthulhu?

I'm also pretty sure that in the up and coming Arkham City, he has trouble dealing with.. slightly crazy people with baseball bats. No super powers involved.

And if Batman has trouble dealing with crazy people with baseball bats its because you're bad at the game not because Batman is bad at it. ;)

Fan

2011-09-11, 03:25 PM

And if Batman has trouble dealing with crazy people with baseball bats its because you're bad at the game not because Batman is bad at it. ;)

No.. I'm pretty sure you'll be "captured' at least once in the game, the trailer with the Joker talking to a restrained Batman is proof of that. =/

In fact, out of the "Standard" members of his Rogue's Gallery (Scarecrow, Bane, Joker, The Penguin, and Two Face are the ones I'm aware of.), only one of them has super powers... and he has trouble with ALL of them.

Tirian

2011-09-11, 03:25 PM

This thread is adding credence to my theory that all versus threads are pale imitations of the original versus thread: Superman versus Mighty Mouse (http://youtu.be/BaCElugnRgQ).

(You know, I'm almost glad the original isn't on YouTube, because Stand By Me ... As Cops is somehow even more awesome.)

dehro

2011-09-11, 03:27 PM

If you take away that from Batman aka that Humanity is capable of handeling such things. then you don't have Batman you have a rich guy in a suit. Triumph of the Human spirit is what makes him Batman.

mmh..no.. that humanity is capable of handling such things is not Batman's prerogative or defining characteristic..it's the premise of the DC-verse, of which he happens to be champion.. but the same truth about humanity should and does apply to other people in the DC-verse, so it's not part of his unique defining skillset.
take him out of the DC-verse and necessarily the premise about humanity stays put.
Cthulhu's very existence is what makes him the unfathomable horror/elder god.. he cannot exist without this premise, that is dependent on him. Cthulhu-verse without Cthulhu is deprived of the notion that Cthulhu is the boss... in DC-verse, humanity kicks ass irrespective of Batman's presence within DC-verse. so to use DC's human resilience as a trump card against adversities, simply doesn't work, in this case

mootoall

2011-09-11, 03:28 PM

The problem with saying Batman has trouble with "Normal, crazy dudes" is that he rarely has trouble with them in hand-to-hand combat, the problem is that their goal is to cause chaos and bloodshed and murder, and Batman is trying to go about *preventing* that. He only had a real problem fighting Bane the first time, after all. The rest is all about properly finding and non-lethally taking them out.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 03:30 PM

It's not so much the DC universe. Lovecraft characters are really easy to drive insane, far more than real people, what with Lovecraft being a highly bigoted man living in the 1920s.

They go mad by trying to understand non-Euclidean space. Understanding non-Euclidean space is mandatory for anyone studying 3D graphics, let alone maths, and it's not even a big subject. They go mad if they meet someone who had parents from different races. Um...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facts_Concerning_the_Late_Arthur_Jermyn_and_His_Fa mily

Arthur Jermyn is described as having a very unusual appearance, and supposedly the strangest in the line descended from Sir Wade Jermyn. Arthur became a scholar, eventually visiting the Belgian Congo on a research expedition, where he heard tales of a stone city of white apes and the stuffed body of a white ape goddess, which had since gone missing. Returning to a trading post, Arthur talks to a Belgian agent who offers to obtain and ship the goddess' body to him. Arthur accepts his offer and returns to England. After a period of several months, the body arrives at Jermyn House. Arthur begins his examination of the mummy, only to run screaming from the room and later commit suicide by dousing himself in oil and setting himself alight.

Lovecraft then describes the contents of the stuffed goddess' coffin—the ape goddess has a golden locket around her neck with the Jermyn arms on it, and bears a striking resemblance to Arthur Jermyn. It is clear that Wade Jermyn's supposedly Portuguese wife was really the ape goddess, and all of his descendants were the product of their union. Arthur's remains are neither collected or buried, on account of this. The mummy is removed and burnt by the Royal Anthropological Institute.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 03:30 PM

mmh..no.. that humanity is capable of handling such things is not Batman's prerogative or defining characteristic..it's the premise of the DC-verse, of which he happens to be champion.. but the same truth about humanity should and does apply to other people in the DC-verse, so it's not part of his unique defining skillset.
take him out of the DC-verse and necessarily the premise about humanity stays put.
Cthulhu's very existence is what makes him the unfathomable horror/elder god.. he cannot exist without this premise, that is dependent on him. Cthulhu-verse without Cthulhu is deprived of the notion that Cthulhu is the boss... in DC-verse, humanity kicks ass irrespective of Batman's presence within DC-verse. so to use DC's human resilience as a trump card against adversities, simply doesn't work, in this caseAs I pointed out, it's not DC human resilience. It's baseline human resilience. I'd be considered an eldritch abomination in the Lovecraft verse, just because of a 21st century college education.

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facts_Concerning_the_Late_Arthur_Jermyn_and_His_Fa milySee, his reaction was suicide, my reaction would be "Wow, you can do that? I've got to tell a biologist!" :smalltongue:

Devonix

2011-09-11, 03:37 PM

mmh..no.. that humanity is capable of handling such things is not Batman's prerogative or defining characteristic..it's the premise of the DC-verse, of which he happens to be champion.. but the same truth about humanity should and does apply to other people in the DC-verse, so it's not part of his unique defining skillset.
take him out of the DC-verse and necessarily the premise about humanity stays put.
Cthulhu's very existence is what makes him the unfathomable horror/elder god.. he cannot exist without this premise, that is dependent on him. Cthulhu-verse without Cthulhu is deprived of the notion that Cthulhu is the boss... in DC-verse, humanity kicks ass irrespective of Batman's presence within DC-verse. so to use DC's human resilience as a trump card against adversities, simply doesn't work, in this case

Batman is a part of humanity. the resiliance is a part of him becuse he is a part of humanity. Take it away and he's not the same character he wouldn't even count as human anymore in the DCU Yes I understand that not every person in the DCU shows this resistance but that is a person giving into weakness not humanity being weak. Even that person has the capability of pushing beyond it for the simple fact of being human.

Fan

2011-09-11, 03:37 PM

As I pointed out, it's not DC human resilience. It's baseline human resilience. I'd be considered an eldritch abomination in the Lovecraft verse, just because of a 21st century college education.

EDIT:
See, his reaction was suicide, my reaction would be "Wow, you can do that? I've got to tell a biologist!" :smalltongue:

I.. severely doubt that.

Have you ever been assaulted by the screams of a thousand mouths all uttering the fundamental untruths of madness? Have you gazed into the realms of absolute terror, depression, and unending insanity that eats away at your mind and destroys everything you love?

No. No one alive (or even in reality) has, and those who do have such things happen to them in the source of Cthulhu's fiction commit suicide.

And no amount of "willpower" will save you from something that is intrinsically designed with the ability to drive you absolutely crazy. \

That is what it does in Cthulhu mythos regardless, because that is his super power. Just like Super Man has Super Strength, Cthulhu has an aura of madness that is canonically inescapable (the book says it outright), undeniable, and there is no amount of anything that can save you.

Because people are "Easily driven mad" in Cthulhu Mythos does not make it any less viable, it just means that it works that much more effectively. Though.. The parents of a different race thing is DEFINITELY author fiat.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 03:47 PM

EDIT:
See, his reaction was suicide, my reaction would be "Wow, you can do that? I've got to tell a biologist!" :smalltongue:

I do think you're off base, but that story is very silly. I mean, the Royal Anthropological Society get together at the end and decides to burn the rare mummy specimen. However, there are no Lovecraft stories in which the protagonist runs screaming from a physics lecture, like you're suggesting. There's always a monster that's trying to rip their brain from their skull and send them to Pluto.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 03:50 PM

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 03:51 PM

Fan

2011-09-11, 03:52 PM

A Batman driven mad by that isn't Batman thats simply it. if we are saying that batman has to be vulnerable to the madness then we are saying that the vs cannot occur because Batman can't exist in such a universe.

Nope. Still Batman by my measure. Just a crazy Batman. Don't see how that makes him "Not Batman" at all. Nothing that stops Batman from existing at all.

Mx.Silver

2011-09-11, 04:00 PM

A Batman driven mad by that isn't Batman thats simply it. if we are saying that batman has to be vulnerable to the madness then we are saying that the vs cannot occur because Batman can't exist in such a universe.
So Batman is immune to psychic/mind-effecting attacks now? Because that would be the implication of your statement.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 04:01 PM

Nope. Still Batman by my measure. Just a crazy Batman. Don't see how that makes him "Not Batman" at all. Nothing that stops Batman from existing at all.

Nope thats like saying you want a fight between Batman and Superman only it has to be a Superman that farts puppies and is an invalid. Its not the same character.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 04:02 PM

I.. severely doubt that.

Have you ever been assaulted by the screams of a thousand mouths all uttering the fundamental untruths of madness? Have you gazed into the realms of absolute terror, depression, and unending insanity that eats away at your mind and destroys everything you love?

No. No one alive (or even in reality) has, and those who do have such things happen to them in the source of Cthulhu's fiction commit suicide.

And no amount of "willpower" will save you from something that is intrinsically designed with the ability to drive you absolutely crazy. \

That is what it does in Cthulhu mythos regardless, because that is his super power. Just like Super Man has Super Strength, Cthulhu has an aura of madness that is canonically inescapable (the book says it outright), undeniable, and there is no amount of anything that can save you.

Because people are "Easily driven mad" in Cthulhu Mythos does not make it any less viable, it just means that it works that much more effectively. Though.. The parents of a different race thing is DEFINITELY author fiat.See, Lovecraft's protagonists start with the assumption that man is the centre of the universe with knowledge of how things work and control over his own destiny, only to have that brutally shattered when the cosmic horrors arrive.

Except that I don't think that to begin with, and neither do plenty of people. I am a speck of dust on the surface of a speck of dust amidst the infinite vastness of the universe. I know nothing of its functions - my greatest knowledge is guesswork. I cannot change fate, because I'll always act the same way with the same information. I am fully aware of this and I don't care.
However, if such an impossibly vast and alien entity were to appear before me, that would change. For all I thought we were insignificant, this thing took notice of us. This thing wants to destroy us. Because we pose a threat to it. Because it's afraid of us.

If Cthuulhu rose from R'lyeh, I would not feel fear. I would feel pity.
...Well, until I was being eaten, but by that point you could sub in a shark and it wouldn't make much difference.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 04:02 PM

So Batman is immune to psychic/mind-effecting attacks now? Because that would be the implication of your statement.

Resistant yes but that's not what I'm talking about.

Fan

2011-09-11, 04:05 PM

See, Lovecraft's protagonists start with the assumption that man is the centre of the universe with knowledge of how things work and control over his own destiny, only to have that brutally shattered when the cosmic horrors arrive.

Except that I don't think that to begin with, and neither do plenty of people. I am a speck of dust on the surface of a speck of dust amidst the infinite vastness of the universe. I know nothing of its functions - my greatest knowledge is guesswork. I cannot change fate, because I'll always act the same way with the same information. I am fully aware of this and I don't care.
However, if such an impossibly vast and alien entity were to appear before me, that would change. For all I thought we were insignificant, this thing took notice of us. This thing wants to destroy us. This thing is afraid of us.

If Cthuulhu rose from R'lyeh, I would not feel fear. I would feel pity.

I call BS.

Seriously, you don't even VAGUELY understand what it means to encounter an Old One or even just a High Priest of The Old Ones. You wouldn't feel pity, the thing is not afraid of you. It barely even sees you on it's spectrum of vision. For Cthulhu to FEAR humans is as an Artist to fear a Stick Figure he drew as a child. Patently ridiculous.

There is nothing you can do against something like that, and there will never be anything you can do against that.

That is the point.

Mx.Silver

2011-09-11, 04:13 PM

Resistant yes but that's not what I'm talking about.
It's the implication though. If Batman can't ever be driven insane then he must by definition be immune to anything that can cause that. However, if he is then that would necessarily mean he must have a superpower (if only to resist actual superpowers).
The problem here is that Batman explicitly does not have any superpowers. If he does, then he isn't batman. It logically follows that Batman cannot both not have superpowers and be incapable of being driven mad, since together it creates a contradtion. Given that 'not having superpowers' is an explict part of his character (whereas being immune to going mad is merely an assumption) it follows that it should take precedence. Therefore, batman can't be immune to insanity.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 04:16 PM

It's the implication though. If Batman can't ever be driven insane then he must by definition be immune to anything that can cause that. However, if he is then that would necessarily mean he must have a superpower (if only to resist actual superpowers).
The problem here is that Batman explicitly does not have any superpowers. If he does, then he isn't batman. It logically follows that Batman cannot both not have superpowers and be incapable of being driven mad, since together it creates a contradtion. Given that 'not having superpowers' is an explict part of his character (whereas being immune to going mad is merely an assumption) it follows that it should take precedence. Therefore, batman can't be immune to insanity.

In most comics Marvel DC and other such immunity or resistance to mind control or telepathy isn't a super power its a trainable ability that many non powered people have.

Lots of people have used means via mind control, toxins powers and lots of other ways to try and Drive Batman mad or cause him to give in to despair. It never works.

Tono

2011-09-11, 04:18 PM

Do keep in mind that not everyone goes insane at the sight of Cthulu. Looking back over my copy of Call of Cthulu, the guy who runs over cthulu does not go insane, his friend does, and he may have had some form of PTSD, but the guys end is not in madness, but death by cultist. And there are like cases. IN... The witches House? I think its called. Dude kills the witch and travels through different dimensions. His death was having a chest buster burst from inside of him. Madness is not the only thing that can happen, retribution is just as deadly.

For this discussion we have to presume Batman would be lucky enough to not go insane, but I think it is only fair to say he would be forced into rash decisions by the encounter, and shaken afterwards, if he survives.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 04:19 PM

Actually, Batman is explicitly highly resistant to psychic attacks. Check out the episode of The Brave and the Bold with Plastic Man. I refer you back to the fact that you're saying "The Hulk should be vulnerable to Muhammad Ali's punches because otherwise it wouldn't be a fair fight," though it's patently untrue.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 04:19 PM

See, Lovecraft's protagonists start with the assumption that man is the centre of the universe with knowledge of how things work and control over his own destiny, only to have that brutally shattered when the cosmic horrors arrive.

Except that I don't think that to begin with, and neither do plenty of people. I am a speck of dust on the surface of a speck of dust amidst the infinite vastness of the universe. I know nothing of its functions - my greatest knowledge is guesswork. I cannot change fate, because I'll always act the same way with the same information. I am fully aware of this and I don't care.

However, if such an impossibly vast and alien entity were to appear before me, that would change. For all I thought we were insignificant, this thing took notice of us. This thing wants to destroy us. Because we pose a threat to it. Because it's afraid of us.

If Cthuulhu rose from R'lyeh, I would not feel fear. I would feel pity. Well, until I was being eaten, but by that point you could sub in a shark and it wouldn't make much difference.
Last week I had ants in my back yard. Nasty red bastards, too. I found them after taking a short nap, but luckily I had some ant poison in my garage. I don't think they pitied me.

Tazar

2011-09-11, 04:25 PM

Batman immune to Cthulu's mind-bending effects? What? :smallconfused:

As mentioned, that's a superpower. Sure, you can be highly resistant to mental attacks simply by virtue of having a disciplined mind, but being immune to Cthulu-levels of mind-affecting power is a superpower.

Batman has psychic superpowers now? When did this happen?

tyckspoon

2011-09-11, 04:27 PM

It's the implication though. If Batman can't ever be driven insane then he must by definition be immune to anything that can cause that. However, if he is then that would necessarily mean he must have a superpower (if only to resist actual superpowers).

..it's not like 'not immune to insanity' translates to 'instantly becomes a mindless wreck' anyway. I know the Cthulhu supporters hate when people harp on the steamboat incident, but.. it does show us that even when Cthulhu is manifested, people can maintain control enough to pilot a freaking boat into him. Sure, it'll be an unpleasant experience. But you want to tell me that a normal man can do that, while Batman can't muster up the will to shove those influences to the back of his brain, deal with them later (probably with the aid of a superheroic telepath/empath/psychiatrist), and take care of the job in front of him? You can argue whether Batman has anything that will do anything to Cthulhu (I would say not in his standard patrolling gear, but if given notice that he has a really big foe to try and take down he does access to appropriate armaments), but it's doing a grave disservice to him to just say "there is no fight, Batman curls up in the corner sucking his thumb and imagining that he's a wombat."

Tazar

2011-09-11, 04:29 PM

On the subject of Batman calling for aid:

Which would be great if Cthulhu had a weakness, but he doesn't. And if Batman can get aid from other DC heroes then Cthulhu should be able to get aid from the other Old Ones.

There are things in the DC universe that could take on Cthulhu but Batman isn't one of them.

A Versus thread pits the two characters against each other based entirely on their own capabilities. Batman gets anything he could do/create/access himself, but he doesn't get to call in, say, Green Lantern for help, because then it's "Batman and Green Lantern vs. X".

Any character in any Vs. thread always has allies they can call in to help them, and if you allow it the entire point of the Vs. thread is completely undone.

Lamech

2011-09-11, 04:34 PM

On the subject of Batman calling for aid:

A Versus thread pits the two characters against each other based entirely on their own capabilities. Batman gets anything he could do/create/access himself, but he doesn't get to call in, say, Green Lantern for help, because then it's "Batman and Green Lantern vs. X".

Any character in any Vs. thread always has allies they can call in to help them, and if you allow it the entire point of the Vs. thread is completely undone.
Right. Which is why he just needs to buy a boat. And drive it in to Cthuhlu. Or more likely buy some actual armaments, and fire them at Cthuhlu. He's the richest man alive I'm sure he could do it.
Once, again, Cthuhlu can't even stand up to a boat.

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 04:42 PM

Right. Which is why he just needs to buy a boat. And drive it in to Cthuhlu. Or more likely buy some actual armaments, and fire them at Cthuhlu. He's the richest man alive I'm sure he could do it.
Once, again, Cthuhlu can't even stand up to a boat.And he reforms moments later, yes the boat slows him down but thats far less than what would happen if Batman had a steamship smash into his face.

Tono

2011-09-11, 04:46 PM

Right. Which is why he just needs to buy a boat. And drive it in to Cthuhlu. Or more likely buy some actual armaments, and fire them at Cthuhlu. He's the richest man alive I'm sure he could do it.
Once, again, Cthuhlu can't even stand up to a boat.

Lets look at it from a different angle. Dude just woke up, has a light snack and sees two humans running away. The last time this dude was able to receive communication from humans was way before anytype of technology had really been developed.(IIRC, people used to be able to tell him ****? Didn't one of the cultist say that? Its been a while, tbh) So he chases. Chasing this thing he gets hit and the head and says screw it, ima just go back to sleep. When the Norwegen sailor was sailing away? Cthulu was reforming. He chose to sleep, he wasn't chased off. Next time he awakens though, as this would be, he knows humans have devolped some sort of technology.

Mx.Silver

2011-09-11, 04:47 PM

Lots of people have used means via mind control, toxins powers and lots of other ways to try and Drive Batman mad or cause him to give in to despair. It never works.
Now, I'm not terribly familiar with Batman, but I'm pretty sure Scarecrow's been able to affect him before now. Sure, I can give that Batman is unlikely to turn into an immediate gibbering wreck but that's a long way from saying he won't be affected by Cthulhu at all.

Right. Which is why he just needs to buy a boat. And drive it in to Cthuhlu. Or more likely buy some actual armaments, and fire them at Cthuhlu. He's the richest man alive I'm sure he could do it.
Once, again, Cthuhlu can't even stand up to a boat.
He took a steamship to the head then healed the damage and got back up again. If that means he 'can't stand up to it' then, by that logic, Wolverine can't stand-up to being stabbed.

Lamech

2011-09-11, 04:48 PM

And he reforms moments later, yes the boat slows him down but thats far less than what would happen if Batman had a steamship smash into his face.
True, except Cthuhlu doesn't float around in boats. He just tries to walk into the water. Batman is the guy who has access to that kind of stuff. And the boat had enough time to escape before Cthuhlu reformed. Regardless one Cthulhu is in pieces its a simple matter to keep him that way and throw him someplace overly harsh. For example... the sun.

Also does it actually say anywhere that Cthulhu is invincible? If we burn every part of him to ash will he be fine?

He took a steamship to the head then healed the damage and got back up again. If that means he 'can't stand up to it' then, by that logic, Wolverine can't stand-up to being stabbed.Assuming it knocks wolverine out he can't stand up to it. If someone is unable to counter you it becomes a containment issue not much of an actual fight. Oh, sure it might be a highly annoying containment issue, but its still just a containment issue. For wolverine you would need someone to keep stabbing him, tie him up, and put him someplace he keeps getting sufficiently hurt that he'll never get back up. An automatic stabbing machine for our "goes down to stabbing wolverine". Cthulhu might need something bigger, but if you have the right plan in place knocking someone out is a win.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 04:51 PM

Now, I'm not terribly familiar with Batman, but I'm pretty sure Scarecrow's been able to affect him before now. Sure, I can give that Batman is unlikely to turn into an immediate gibbering wreck but that's a long way from saying he won't be affected by Cthulhu at all.IIRC Scarecrow's gas rewires your brain so that any excitement you feel is converted into fear or something like that. Cthulhu doesn't do that, his otherness just assaults your senses directly.

Fan

2011-09-11, 04:51 PM

Cthulhu.. can stand up to a boat.

He reformed seconds after, it didn't even do anything to him besides Cthulhu allowing them to pass through him, and Cthulhu only stopped Armageddon because the Stars were not right.

Cthulhu, by virtue of awakening, and thereby awakening Azathoth.. The universe is unmade. So bring friends into this.. and.. yeah.

Tazar

2011-09-11, 04:53 PM

True, except Cthuhlu doesn't float around in boats. He just tries to walk into the water. Batman is the guy who has access to that kind of stuff. And the boat had enough time to escape before Cthuhlu reformed. Regardless one Cthulhu is in pieces its a simple matter to keep him that way and throw him someplace overly harsh. For example... the sun.

What, is Batman going to duct-tape him to a rocket and fire him into the sun?

How do you propose Batman "throw" Cthulhu somewhere? That statement is rather absurd.

IIRC Scarecrow's gas rewires your brain so that any excitement you feel is converted into fear or something like that. Cthulhu doesn't do that, his otherness just assaults your senses directly.

If Batman is overcome by simple, crude chemicals, he hardly stands a chance against outright psychic assault.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 04:55 PM

What, is Batman going to duct-tape him to a rocket and fire him into the sun?

How do you propose Batman "throw" Cthulhu somewhere? That statement is rather absurd.By being so absurdly rich that he sneaks the design, construction and maintenance of the world's most advanced space station onto his budget without anyone noticing.

If Batman is overcome by simple, crude chemicals, he hardly stands a chance against outright psychic assault.That does not follow. They are completely unrelated, they just happen to have similar effects. That's like saying "if this water can be frozen by simple low temperatures, surely it can be frozen by irradiating it".

Lamech

2011-09-11, 04:57 PM

What, is Batman going to duct-tape him to a rocket and fire him into the sun?

How do you propose Batman "throw" Cthulhu somewhere? That statement is rather absurd.
He got a giant space station built. He can send some thing towards the sun.

Tazar

2011-09-11, 04:57 PM

By being so absurdly rich that he sneak the design, construction and maintenance of the world's most advanced space station onto his budget without anyone noticing.

So he's got a space station. What does it matter? How does he get Cthulu there?

Lamech

2011-09-11, 05:00 PM

So he's got a space station. What does it matter? How does he get Cthulu there?How do you think he got the space station there in the first place? Cthulhu can be sent there the same way, except a bit more fuel to actually get Cthulhu into the sun.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 05:01 PM

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 05:02 PM

True, except Cthuhlu doesn't float around in boats. He just tries to walk into the water. Batman is the guy who has access to that kind of stuff. And the boat had enough time to escape before Cthuhlu reformed. Regardless one Cthulhu is in pieces its a simple matter to keep him that way and throw him someplace overly harsh. For example... the sun. My point is that while brute force can temporairly harm Cthulhu much less of it will permanently kill Batman. You can claim that when Cthulhu is in pieces Batman can easily achive victory but when Batman is cut up Cthulhu has already achieved victory, and Cthulhu can cut up Batman far more easily than the other way around.

Also does it actually say anywhere that Cthulhu is invincible? If we burn every part of him to ash will he be fine?He's a giant gelatenous mass it's unlikely he's flammable. And yes it is explicitly stated that Cthulhu can't die, at all.

Mx.Silver

2011-09-11, 05:03 PM

IIRC Scarecrow's gas rewires your brain so that any excitement you feel is converted into fear or something like that. Cthulhu doesn't do that, his otherness just assaults your senses directly.

Any attack against the mind is going to be altering brain chemistry, practically by definition. Coming from a psychtropic drug (which is what Scarecrow's gas is) won't make an iota of difference.

Lamech

2011-09-11, 05:05 PM

My point is that while brute force can temporairly harm Cthulhu much less of it will permanently kill Batman. You can claim that when Cthulhu is in pieces Batman can easily achive victory but when Batman is cut up Cthulhu has already achieved victory, and Cthulhu can cut up Batman far more easily than the other way around.

Spot the flaw here:
Compare a elephant, a heard of elephants even, and a guy with a team of predator drones. Who will win? The elephants obviously! They can take much more punishment that a normal human. [/spot-the-flaw]

Cthulhu doesn't have anything like an orbital space station. Batman does. Batman wins. What does Cthulhu have that can cut up Batman when Batman is in orbit?

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 05:10 PM

Spot the flaw here:
Compare a elephant, a heard of elephants even, and a guy with a team of predator drones. Who will win? The elephants obviously! They can take much more punishment that a normal human. [/spot-the-flaw]

Cthulhu doesn't have anything like an orbital space station. Batman does. Batman wins. What does Cthulhu have that can cut up Batman when Batman is in orbit?

Wings.........

Mx.Silver

2011-09-11, 05:11 PM

Spot the flaw here:
Compare a elephant, a heard of elephants even, and a guy with a team of predator drones. Who will win? The elephants obviously! They can take much more punishment that a normal human. [/spot-the-flaw]

The difference here is that predator drones can kill elephants. What, exactly, does Batman have that can kill Cthulhu? At best, crashing his vehicles into Cthulhu may slow it down a bit, but if Batman is hit even once it's over.

Cthulhu doesn't have anything like an orbital space station. Batman does. Batman wins. What does Cthulhu have that can cut up Batman when Batman is in orbit?
What does Batman have that can cut Cthulhu up if Batman is in orbit? Running away and hiding does not really constitute a victory, either, even if escape is possible.

Axolotl

2011-09-11, 05:13 PM

dehro

2011-09-11, 05:16 PM

How do you think he got the space station there in the first place? Cthulhu can be sent there the same way, except a bit more fuel to actually get Cthulhu into the sun.

"he's got the space station"..so?now he's also invented teleportation?
may I remind everybody that Cthulhu is the size of a small mountain? is batman now also going to "bugdet in" an impossible Crane to lift Cthulhu up to the space station? and Cthulhu is just going to sit around and wait for him to move him about?

Devonix

2011-09-11, 05:16 PM

How exatly does hiding in orbit constitute winning? Even ignoring that most Lovecraftian entities can easily traverse interstellar distances unharmed and as such Cthulhu would most likely be able to crush Batman's space station with his hands. Even ignoreing that, Batman still can't permanently harm Cthulhu while Cthulhu can crush him with ease.

I think the poster is talking about Batman using something like an Orbital laser or missle system on Cthulhu

Ravens_cry

2011-09-11, 05:17 PM

So Batman is immune to psychic/mind-effecting attacks now? Because that would be the implication of your statement.
In the Timm-verse, as already linked to, he most certainly is not.

How do you think he got the space station there in the first place? Cthulhu can be sent there the same way, except a bit more fuel to actually get Cthulhu into the sun.

It would require far more energy to do so as the rocket would have to accelerate to escape velocity, get away from the Earth, than decelerate again beyond that and then some to below the speed required to orbit the sun. It's . . . complicated, but very fuel intensive regardless.
Also, you could send up the Justice Station in pieces, like the ISS has been. Cthulhu would also have to be restrained for the voyage.
Getting to Cthulhu is another nightmare, literally, as R'lyeh itself is a rather mind bending place. Plus, it's at the bottom of the freaking ocean. Homo sapiens like Batman can't breath there.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 05:17 PM

tentacles that end in razor sharp fangs when he doesn't squeeze you with them?
also.. "he's got the space station"..so?now he's also invented teleportation?
may I remind everybody that Cthulhu is the size of a small mountain? is batman now also going to "bugdet in" an impossible Crane to lift Cthulhu up to the space station? and Cthulhu is just going to sit around and wait for him to move him about?

Ummm. Teleportation tech is an existing thing in the DCU that lots of heroes have acess to.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 05:22 PM

I think the poster is talking about Batman using something like an Orbital laser or missle system on Cthulhu

Or a friendship cannon, for example. (That other thread really should have been Cthulhu vs Princess Celestia.)

Devonix

2011-09-11, 05:25 PM

Or a friendship cannon, for example. (That other thread really should have been Cthulhu vs Princess Celestia.)

Nope Cthulhu can't make friends and as such stands no chance in that one.

Fan

2011-09-11, 05:25 PM

Ummm. Teleportation tech is an existing thing in the DCU that lots of heroes have acess to.

I don't know what an acess is, or how someone has it, but it sounds like a medical problem you should discuss with your doctor.

dehro

2011-09-11, 05:25 PM

Ummm. Teleportation tech is an existing thing in the DCU that lots of heroes have acess to.

does batman? and does it lift that kind of volumes all the way to outer space/the space station?
it seems that the whole "shoot stuff in his face/shoots him into outer space" argumentation lacks definition. on the same principle I could just say "Cthulhu somehow manages to step on Batman, who turns into a stain on the floor".. yeah..it could work, provided a whole lot of assumptions are made..either way.
those assumptions seem a whole lot bigger in the case of Batman winning than in the case of Cthulhu defeating him.
I do believe that the very definition of Cthulhu contains words to the effect that human beings are no match for him, ultimately..
whereas nothing in the many definition one could give of batman is as explicit in denying his opponents a fighting chance. (which doesn't mean he doesn't have a chance per definition..but "it not being impossible for batman to win" is a far shout from what is explicitly stated in the definition of Cthulhu, namely the exact opposite)
per definition, this is not a case of immovable object Vs unstoppable force..
this is a case of impossible to resist/defeat/comprehend Vs quite good at beating baddies.

that alone should tip the scales firmly in Cthulhu's favour.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 05:28 PM

I don't know what an acess is, or how someone has it, but it sounds like a medical problem you should discuss with your doctor.

silly rabbit, jokes about typos are for kids.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 05:28 PM

does batman? and does it lift that kind of volumes all the way to outer space/the space station?The space station has a transporter room. Built by Batman.

Also! Batman has a freeze ray which blatantly disregards the laws of physics. He can use that on Cthulhu. :smalltongue:

Devonix

2011-09-11, 05:32 PM

The space station has a transporter room. Built by Batman.

Also! Batman has a freeze ray which blatantly disregards the laws of physics. He can use that on Cthulhu. :smalltongue:

Actually he's using tech provided by Martian Manhunter for the teleporter but Batman knows how to build one because of working on it.

dehro

2011-09-11, 05:33 PM

The space station has a transporter room. Built by Batman.

Also! Batman has a freeze ray which blatantly disregards the laws of physics. He can use that on Cthulhu. :smalltongue:
just how big is that room :smalltongue:?
Cthulhu scoffs and gives the finger tentacle to any sort of law

mootoall

2011-09-11, 05:34 PM

Again: Boomtube to Apocalypse.

Fan

2011-09-11, 05:35 PM

Mutant Sheep

2011-09-11, 05:35 PM

Again: Boomtube to Apocalypse.

Darkseid vs Cthulhu! :smallbiggrin: i predict a sitcom!!! BEST FRIENDS FOREVER!

Devonix

2011-09-11, 05:37 PM

A man works on a jet engine, knows that jet engine inside and out... still doesn't know how to make a functioning airplane.

Because there's still a couple other thousand feats of engineering involved that he in specific didn't do.

He didn't just build part of the teleporter he was taught how whole thing works and how to build it. I'm just saying he didn't come up with it on his own.

He didn't design the jet engine but he was taught how to build it and the plane.

Mewtarthio

2011-09-11, 05:47 PM

No. No one alive (or even in reality) has, and those who do have such things happen to them in the source of Cthulhu's fiction commit suicide.

And no amount of "willpower" will save you from something that is intrinsically designed with the ability to drive you absolutely crazy.

Randolph Carter. The guy is a totally mundane human who has face-to-face conversations with things that are a lot more impossible than Old Squidface. Heck, there's even one guy in the Dream Cycle who's seen freaking Azathoth and lives a perfectly health, non-insane life.

Fan

2011-09-11, 05:49 PM

Ever hear the term "Author Avatar"? Because that's what Randolph Carter is. =p

Mewtarthio

2011-09-11, 05:53 PM

Ever hear the term "Author Avatar", because that's what Randolph Carter is. =p

So now you're saying that HP Lovecraft could outsmart Nyarlathotep and keep his sanity? :smallamused:

Yeah, Batman's fine. I think Scarecrow's fear gas > immigrants and interracial marriage.

SoC175

2011-09-11, 05:54 PM

It seems that in the context of the mythos, Cthulu is fairly resilient, and it's not clear that any human could take him down for good, especially if they tried doing it via physical damage. Well, since Howard started to imagine the mythos mankind invented weapons of mass-destruction on a scale unthinkable at Howard's time. To cope with that a later publisher simply added the "comes back but radioactive" part for their RPG to avoid having to deal with "just nuke him", but that's basically glorified fanfiction.

Fan

2011-09-11, 06:02 PM

Um.. Howard was alive when the Manhattan Project was started.

Just an FYI. So.. nuking it wont work.

There's also the fact that they are statedly unable to die, so.. No. Batman cannot win against Cthulhu by virtue of dying of old age first.

Lamech

2011-09-11, 06:08 PM

The difference here is that predator drones can kill elephants. What, exactly, does Batman have that can kill Cthulhu? At best, crashing his vehicles into Cthulhu may slow it down a bit, but if Batman is hit even once it's over.

What does Batman have that can cut Cthulhu up if Batman is in orbit? Running away and hiding does not really constitute a victory, either, even if escape is possible.Well seeing as how he would be on a space station full of weapons... anyone of his weapons? Or just predator drones. Those work too.

it seems that the whole "shoot stuff in his face/shoots him into outer space" argumentation lacks definition. on the same principle I could just say "Cthulhu somehow manages to step on Batman, who turns into a stain on the floor".. yeah..it could work, provided a whole lot of assumptions are made..either way.Well okay then.
1) Cthulhu walks out of where ever he is hiding. If this step fails, Batman wins by default. Cthulhu didn't show up.
2) Cthulhu being a massive target is detected... almost immediately. Or are you really arguing Cthulhu will try stealth?
3) Shoot him. Predator drones, missiles, cannons, or any of the futuristic weapons Batman can get. All of them hit harder and faster then a steam ship, so Cthulhu is knocked out. He was unable to stop a steam ship and these are much stronger attacks, and more difficult to stop, Cthulhu will have similar problems with these.
4) Cthulhu is now knocked out, and can no longer fight back. Keep shooting shots at him so he doesn't regen.
5) Get a containment system and throw him into the sun. Probably want to separate the chunks some, and get woodchippers to keep Cthulhu down when he is going into the sun. Or maybe be more careful. Batman is a freaking genius. He'll figure this out.
6) The sun hits much harder than a steamship, so Cthulhu stays down until the sun goes out.

It would require far more energy to do so as the rocket would have to accelerate to escape velocity, get away from the Earth, than decelerate again beyond that and then some to below the speed required to orbit the sun. It's . . . complicated, but very fuel intensive regardless.
Also, you could send up the Justice Station in pieces, like the ISS has been. Cthulhu would also have to be restrained for the voyage.
Getting to Cthulhu is another nightmare, literally, as R'lyeh itself is a rather mind bending place. Plus, it's at the bottom of the freaking ocean. Homo sapiens like Batman can't breath there.
One: I don't see how needing a bit more fuel is a huge issue.
Two: If the tower had to go up in pieces whats preventing the same with Cthulhu? His head got ripped apart.
Three: Giant wood chipper. Or more precisly just keep attacking him to re-do any damage the regen undoes.
Four: If Cthulhu doesn't leave R'lyeh who cares? Humanity has done just fine with Cthulhu in R'lyeh so far.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 06:10 PM

Nope Cthulhu can't make friends and as such stands no chance in that one.

http://www.goominet.com/uploads/tx_cenostripviewer/uI00-abhoth.jpg (http://www.goominet.com/unspeakable-vault/vault/178/)

SoC175

2011-09-11, 06:12 PM

Um.. Howard was alive when the Manhattan Project was started. He died in 1937, the Manhattan Project started in 1942, he never knew about the power of a nuke or many of the other weapon humanity now wields

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 06:14 PM

He died in 1937, the Manhattan Project started in 1942, he never knew about the power of a nuke or many of the other weapon humanity now wields

I bet you think Elvis is dead too, right?

Fan

2011-09-11, 06:18 PM

He died in 1937, the Manhattan Project started in 1942, he never knew about the power of a nuke or many of the other weapon humanity now wields

The "Power of the Atom", and it's capabilities were lauded as the up and coming super weapon on radio broadcasts long before the bomb, or the project (Which actually began in 1939 post a press barrage to get the funding drummed up.), ever actually got underway.

It was pretty much the ultimate morale booster, to know that YOUR side was going to win no matter what.

However, I wont go any farther than that due to POLITIKS.

Also Lamech, I have no idea why someone would want a Giant Wood Shipper, it just tends to make me imagine a Giant Nepeta scrabbling her shipping wall all over Everest.

the_druid_droid

2011-09-11, 06:19 PM

Randolph Carter. The guy is a totally mundane human who has face-to-face conversations with things that are a lot more impossible than Old Squidface. Heck, there's even one guy in the Dream Cycle who's seen freaking Azathoth and lives a perfectly health, non-insane life.

Except for the part where he comes back trapped in an alien body of questionable sanity...

But again, my argument really isn't about Batman going insane. HPL's stories focused on psychological themes because that was one of his interests, but there are also some surprisingly gory descriptions as well. I think Cthulu would certainly have more than just crazy beams at his disposal once fully awake.

The other issue is that the whole steamship thing happened when he wasn't even supposed to be conscious; as another poster said, he basically killed some people, ran into some opposition and decided he'd rather sleep than bother with little pink monkeys. Cthulu on a true awakening would be a very different story.

SoC175

2011-09-11, 06:23 PM

The "Power of the Atom", and it's capabilities were lauded as the up and coming super weapon on radio broadcasts long before the bomb, or the project (Which actually began in 1939 post a press barrage to get the funding drummed up.), ever actually got underway. The "atom-mania" started only after that (in the 1950s). Even the tender first steps in 1939 were already 2 years after Howard's demise.

It was pretty much the ultimate morale booster, to know that YOUR side was going to win no matter what. The war hadn't even started yet when Howard died. Even in 1938 after the Munich conference leading politicians were convince that "peace for our time" was saved at last. There was no "we have the super weapon to win the war" propaganda during Howard's time.

Mx.Silver

2011-09-11, 06:26 PM

The question of how much Nuclear bombs could hurt Cthulhu is rather beside the point since AFAIK Batman doesn't have any. On that note:

3) Shoot him. Predator drones, missiles, cannons, or any of the futuristic weapons Batman can get. All of them hit harder and faster then a steam ship, so Cthulhu is knocked out. He was unable to stop a steam ship and these are much stronger attacks, and more difficult to stop, Cthulhu will have similar problems with these.
And where exactly is Bruce keeping this arsenal of UAVs, artillery and missiles? The Batcave? How is he transporting and operating them effectively even if he does have them?
And again, Cthulhu was unable to stop a steam ship in much the same way as Wolverine is unable to stop a bullet.

Yeah, Batman's fine. I think Scarecrow's fear gas > immigrants and interracial marriage.
:smallsigh:
Lovecraft having really stupid opinions doesn't negate Cthulhu's powers anymore than Frank Miller being an idiot weakens Batman.

Fan

2011-09-11, 06:30 PM

The "atom-mania" started only after that (in the 1950s). Even the tender first steps in 1939 were already 2 years after Howard's demise.
The war hadn't even started yet when Howard died

Point is, he says they're unkillable. It doesn't matter what came after, they are unkillable. It is said flat out that death will die before they do.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 06:34 PM

Point is, he says they're unkillable. It doesn't matter what came after, they are unkillable. It is said flat out that death will die before they do.Batman proceeds to follow up on that pale ankh-wearing woman who his spy satellites detected appearing out of nowhere in Russia the other day and throw a Batarang in her eye. :smalltongue:

Fan

2011-09-11, 06:35 PM

Mr.Bookworm

2011-09-11, 06:54 PM

Batman proceeds to follow up on that pale ankh-wearing woman who his spy satellites detected appearing out of nowhere in Russia the other day and throw a Batarang in her eye. :smalltongue:

Batman versus the near-omnipotent anthropomorphic personification of Death who is inevitably fated to bear witness to the end of everything.

Does he have prep time?[/sarcasm]

Fjolnir

2011-09-11, 06:54 PM

Honestly, Batman would attempt some of the more mundane things at his disposal before breaking into more and more ridiculous technology, though at the end he would probably end up flushing it to apokalypse

Fan

2011-09-11, 06:57 PM

Batman versus the near-omnipotent anthropomorphic personification of Death who is inevitably fated to bear witness to the end of everything.

Does he have prep time?[/sarcasm]

The fact that you needed sarcasm text depresses me...

It also kills all faith I had in the batman fandom... forever.

Eakin

2011-09-11, 06:57 PM

Or a friendship cannon, for example. (That other thread really should have been Cthulhu vs Princess Celestia.)

I'm seeing a rock/paper/scissors relationship here.

Celestia>Cthulu>Batman>Celestia?

Fan

2011-09-11, 06:59 PM

No.. Celestia would still win because she can just kill the Solar system by making the Sun go Nova.

At any time. It only takes her a few (read 3.) seconds to do so.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 07:01 PM

I'm seeing a rock/paper/scissors relationship here.

Celestia>Cthulu>Batman>Celestia?

Celestia friendship rainbows Cthulhu
Cthulhu eats Batman
Batman pony-repellent bat sprays Celestia

Now the hard part: hand signs.

the_druid_droid

2011-09-11, 07:02 PM

No.. Celestia would still win because she can just kill the Solar system by making the Sun go Nova.

At any time. It only takes her a few (read 3.) seconds to do so.

I am fairly confident that Celestia would win by getting Cthulu and Batman to have an amiable discussion about their differences. If necessary, Fluttershy might be involved in getting Cthulu to go back to sleep in another solar system/dimension.

Eakin

2011-09-11, 07:05 PM

Celestia friendship rainbows Cthulhu
Cthulhu eats Batman
Batman pony-repellent bat sprays Celestia

Now the hard part: hand signs.

Easy!

Batman: link your hands by wrapping your thumbs together and holding your fingers out. Instant bat-signal shape

Cthulu: Hold your hand up by your mouth and wiggle it to simulate tentacles

Celestia: Pointer finger protruding from your forehead simulates the unicorn horn

Fan

2011-09-11, 07:06 PM

Heresy, the Batman Symbol is the Imperial Aquilla!

You will have to be subdued now to suffer your three death sentences. Let's start with the first one now.

*BLAM*

Devonix

2011-09-11, 07:09 PM

The question of how much Nuclear bombs could hurt Cthulhu is rather beside the point since AFAIK Batman doesn't have any. On that note:

And where exactly is Bruce keeping this arsenal of UAVs, artillery and missiles? The Batcave? How is he transporting and operating them effectively even if he does have them?
And again, Cthulhu was unable to stop a steam ship in much the same way as Wolverine is unable to stop a bullet.

:smallsigh:
Lovecraft having really stupid opinions doesn't negate Cthulhu's powers anymore than Frank Miller being an idiot weakens Batman.

I would like to know what continuity other than the 1970s Batman TV series does Batman not have access to these things.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 07:13 PM

The fact that you needed sarcasm text depresses me...

It also kills all faith I had in the batman fandom... forever.While I was mostly joking (and referencing the day when Death walks as a mortal), Nekron was killed despite also being a near-omnipotent anthropomorphic personification of Death who is inevitably fated to bear witness to the end of everything.

Death has died in the DC universe many times. :smallamused: Hell, the fight will probably be interrupted by a universal reboot which wipes Cthulhu out of existence and causes Batman to spontaneously grow a moustache which vanishes a few seconds later.

dehro

2011-09-11, 07:13 PM

1)preptime I have already addressed.. it's kinda hard to know what to prep for when you don't have the mental faculties to understand what you're looking at.. and humanity by definition does not.

2)the main problem with batman going all out with "conveniently available" nukes, space station, supercannons and whatnot is that that's never been his first reply to anything, AFAIK. admittedly I don't know much about batman, but I assume that he doesn't take all that kind of stuff on patrol with him, nor tries them out as a first attack. for all he knows, (because Cthulhu is unknowable and unfathomable) he's just looking at a holograph, or maybe something he only needs to shoot in the eye to put it down. if batman went all out on each and every foe that crossed his path, the comics would be a great deal shorter..
therefore I'll just go ahead and assume he'll first try the batarang, to scout his foe, to get a closer look and/or throw a few smaller hits at him to see what happens..
with in mind to get a clearer picture, and come up with a strategy.
except by then Cthulhu's influence would already have hit him squarely in the face.. and getting a closer look only tells him about the size of the opponent, not what it is or per se how to beat it (unfathomable, remember?).. and exposes him to a direct hit and/or the mental/magical/divine/chaos influence of the elder god...
Cthulhu doesn't even need to be awake or focussing on him to cause severe emotional, mental and psychological damage and distress to the average man.. batman isn't average, ok, granted..but still.. we're comparing vulcanoes with ants here. the batman fandom shall just have to learn to live with the fact that there's something out there that can beat their hero.

Eakin

2011-09-11, 07:15 PM

Do we even know if the steamship trick would work a second time? Or was it just a cheap shot that only worked because Cthulu wasn't actually awake and could be blocked or dodged?

Also how far up the power scale do we have to go to get an even match for Celestia? Galacticus? The borg? Something out of the 40K 'verse?

dehro

2011-09-11, 07:19 PM

Death has died in the DC universe many times. :smallamused:

well..yeah..so..again, are we in DC-verse then? not on neutral ground?
anyhoo..it's already been said that we're explicitly told by Lovecraft that Cthulhu will survive after death itself has passed away.

Fan

2011-09-11, 07:25 PM

dehro

2011-09-11, 07:28 PM

So Cthulhu doesn't even have to do anything, he just sleeps until Batman, and all memory of Batman is gone forever, being a human being, most of the things he has ever done will already have been forgotten after his death.

well no... if he were sleeping I don't know if that would qualify for a proper match-up.. also, it would be far less spectaculair :smallbiggrin:

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 07:31 PM

So Cthulhu doesn't even have to do anything, he just sleeps until Batman, and all memory of Batman is gone forever, being a human being, most of the things he has ever done will already have been forgotten after his death.

http://pinklilybit.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/debbie_downer_1.jpg

turkishproverb

2011-09-11, 07:34 PM

well..yeah..so..again, are we in DC-verse then? not on neutral ground?
anyhoo..it's already been said that we're explicitly told by Lovecraft that Cthulhu will survive after death itself has passed away.

dehro, neutral ground is not "Batman is stripped of everything but his costume, and maybe his belt, but Cthulhu gets all the best stuff from any appearance he ever had, ever, and none of the negative stuff counts at all. "

And also, it does not mean said "neutral ground" works just like Lovecraft+later mythos universe, only with the ability to magically drain any mental stability or fortitude from people from other universes and with significantly better fortitude than your average "melts like butter" individual.

I don't like "batman always wins" a lot as a trope, but this desperation to say "BATMAN LOOSES DAGNABIT!!1!!1!" is just inane.

Read Lovecraft. The people who go insane usually aren't the strongest minded people in existence. His elder gods, much like Wells martians, could not survive what people today like to act like they could. He just had the sense to make it a tiny bit more ambiguous.

On that note:

For you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0Cfmt9RlDM)

Prime32

2011-09-11, 07:57 PM

dehro, neutral ground is not "Batman is stripped of everything but his costume, and maybe his belt, but Cthulhu gets all the best stuff from any appearance he ever had, ever, and none of the negative stuff counts at all. "If we're going that route, let's say that Batman is an animated suit of magic armor wearing a suit of power armour, with all of the powers of Superman, Dracula and Etrigan but none of the weaknesses, a Green Lantern Ring, a Sinestro Corps Ring, a ki barrier which deflects bullets around his head, the ability to control the weather, a beautiful singing voice, an army of Superman-level cyborgs who can assimilate any form of life no matter how alien, and a can of Bat-Cthulhu-Repellant. And his soul is indestructible, so even if he is killed and broken he will just reincarnate.

Kageru

2011-09-11, 07:58 PM

Fan

2011-09-11, 08:00 PM

dehro

2011-09-11, 08:02 PM

dehro, neutral ground is not "Batman is stripped of everything but his costume, and maybe his belt, but Cthulhu gets all the best stuff from any appearance he ever had, ever, and none of the negative stuff counts at all. "

For you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0Cfmt9RlDM)

lol
as for what they both get to take to this neutral ground..I'm only considering what they can carry, sort of things.. in other words, batman gets his utility belt and his standard equipment, and Cthulhu gets to take his powers..because they're built in and the very nature of what he is.. batman without his power-friends and conveniently available super resources, which he wouldn't have on him on an average day in a first contact kind of situation, is still batman, tough as nails and so on.. Cthulhu without the postulate that he cannot be killed/understood/etc. just isn't Cthulhu.. because that's the very definition of who/what he is... and Cthulhu, on an average day, WOULD have all his powers and skills..again, they're part of what he is. he's not bringing his elder god friends, because that would be overkill and unfair, and hardly neutral.
hell..even if Batman had the space station, forewarning and other such gadgets, he would still, by definition, most likely be unable to understand/defeat Cthulhu. we're simply talking about 2 completely different sets of coordinates and measures and when you try to bring them together on a reasonable playing field.. you cannot escape the fact that one is by nature and definition unbeatable by the other because of the very nature of who and what they are.
if we'd put Cthulhu against Gandalf, for instance, I'd give Gandalf more than a fighting chance, simply because Cthulhu is explicitly not possible to beat or "understand" by humans..and Gandalf isn't human. Batman, for all his resources, brawn, modern times experience and qualities, cannot escape the fact that he is human (it's what makes him so appealing to many)... and is therefore fatally doomed to fail against Cthulhu who is designed by Lovecraft explicitly to screw with humans..not maiar, not elves, not kryptonians or sayan, but humans

Eakin

2011-09-11, 08:03 PM

Unknowable and unfathomable? If he is so unknowable how does anyone know enough about him to know that he is unknowable?^^ Well I guess the author can describe him that way it's just such an meaningless description...
Btw for the people who have actually read the books are the descriptions that he can't die, is unfathomable and such descriptions of an omniscient narrator or does the information come from anybody or anything in the setting?

For the purposes of a versus thread, I think we generally have to ignore comments in one character's 'verse that they cannot be killed/stopped/defeated by anything until the end of time, unless that's particularly integral to the character.

Frankly even if we ignore the madness aura and the ability to summon other eldritch nasties to help him out, I think Cthulu still wins simply by virtue of being a gigantic infinitely regenerating squid monster.

Batman fanboys need to accept that their paragon isn't quite as all powerful as they think

Devonix

2011-09-11, 08:05 PM

lol
as for what they both get to take to this neutral ground..I'm only considering what they can carry, sort of things.. in other words, batman gets his utility belt and his standard equipment, and Cthulhu gets to take his powers..because they're built in and the very nature of what he is.. batman without his power-friends and conveniently available super resources, which he wouldn't have on him on an average day in a first contact kind of situation, is still batman, tough as nails and so on.. Cthulhu without the postulate that he cannot be killed/understood/etc. just isn't Cthulhu.. because that's the very definition of who/what he is... and Cthulhu, on an average day, WOULD have all his powers and skills..again, they're part of what he is.
hell..even if Batman had the space station, forewarning and other such gadgets, he would still, by definition, most likely be unable to understand/defeat Cthulhu. we're simply talking about 2 completely different sets of coordinates and measures and when you try to bring them together on a reasonable playing field.. you cannot escape the fact that one is by nature and definition unbeatable by the other because of the very nature of who and what they are.
if we'd put Cthulhu against Gandalf, for instance, I'd give Gandalf more than a fighting chance, simply because Cthulhu is explicitly not possible to beat or "understand" by humans..and Gandalf isn't human. Batman, for all his resources, brawn, modern times experience and qualities, cannot escape the fact that he is human (it's what makes him so appealing to many)... and is therefore fatally doomed to fail against Cthulhu who is designed by Lovecraft explicitly to screw with humans..not maiar, not elves, not kryptonians or sayan, but humans

Yes but he's designed to screw with Lovecraftian humans which are a completely different animal than DCU Humans

Place him in the Evangelion universe and you get complete and total mind screw

DCU not so much.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 08:08 PM

Narrator.

It's a stated fact for those of us "Out of Story" in story.

Most of them are in first person, though, and most of the information on the Unnamables is given to us from anecdotal experience, not objective fact. About the other part, "That is not dead which can eternal lie,/Yet with strange aeons even death may die" is just a poetical way of saying that he's immortal. Whether it's strictly true or not isn't confirmed.

Starbuck_II

2011-09-11, 08:29 PM

Darkseid vs Cthulhu! :smallbiggrin: i predict a sitcom!!! BEST FRIENDS FOREVER!

Batman beat Darkseid. Thus, is seems Batman can beat Cthulhu then.

Mando Knight

2011-09-11, 08:29 PM

2 completely different sets of coordinates and measures

You're referring to the non-Euclidean geometry thing, right? Batman should be able to comprehend it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry), being the World's Greatest Detective and all.

Fan

2011-09-11, 08:29 PM

Mr.Bookworm

2011-09-11, 08:31 PM

Whether it's strictly true or not isn't confirmed.

Even ignoring all of the later stuff in the Mythos besides Lovecraft, most certainly not true. Cthulhu is almost as insignificant in the grand scheme of things as humans are. Any of the Outer Gods could crush him like an insect without even trying.

While I don't think Batman could actually kill Cthulhu, I do think that he is one of the people best suited to trying to figure out a way to halt his rise. Knowledge is the ultimate weapon in the Mythos, and Batman possesses the resources and skills to get that knowledge.

Man, now I want to see this as a comic book. I can see Neil Gaiman doing an excellent job with it.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 08:40 PM

You're referring to the non-Euclidean geometry thing, right? Batman should be able to comprehend it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry), being the World's Greatest Detective and all.

3rd greatest detective The whole Greatest detective thing was more of a nickname.

Best detective = Detective Chimp
Best Human Detective = Elongated Man

Devonix

2011-09-11, 08:45 PM

Again, Cthulhu wins by virtue of Batman dying from Old age before he dies.

Then Batman dies forgotten within a century as one among THOUSANDS of super hero's of equal caliber (And in many cases greater) in the DCU.

But we've seen the future thousands of years in the Future he's still remembered and would leave a message for future generations about Cthulhu's return.

Prime32

2011-09-11, 08:45 PM

Again, Cthulhu wins by virtue of Batman dying from Old age before he dies.

Then Batman dies forgotten within a century as one among THOUSANDS of super hero's of equal caliber (And in many cases greater) in the DCU.Canonically, Batman is still remembered in the 853rd century.

Fan

2011-09-11, 08:47 PM

That makes no sense, and is completely irrelevant, but okay.

And he wouldn't know when Cthulhu would return.. that's.. Kinda the point.

Also Thousands of Years is nothing to wait for Cthulhu.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 08:53 PM

That makes no sense, and is completely irrelevant, but okay.

And he wouldn't know when Cthulhu would return.. that's.. Kinda the point.

Also Thousands of Years is nothing to wait for Cthulhu.

Ok he just borrows a time machine and goes to the future himself. I'm sure Rip or Booster will let him borrow one for a mission. :smallwink:

Mando Knight

2011-09-11, 08:55 PM

Canonically, Batman is still remembered in the 853rd century.

Yeah, the Justice League is about as iconic of the 20th/21st century DC universe as King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table are for the Middle Ages.

Erts

2011-09-11, 08:56 PM

3rd greatest detective The whole Greatest detective thing was more of a nickname.

Best detective = Detective Chimp
Best Human Detective = Elongated Man
Still good enough to get Non-Euclidean Geometry.

Again, Cthulhu wins by virtue of Batman dying from Old age before he dies.

Then Batman dies forgotten within a century as one among THOUSANDS of super hero's of equal caliber (And in many cases greater) in the DCU.

Uh, nope.
1. The Modern Age is known as the Great Age of Heroes in history, and their exploits are read as an important time of history. Batman is known as one of the most important of the era.
2. One of the main themes of Batman comics is him being an inspiration to other people, there is an entire team devoted to this concept. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batmen_of_All_Nations)
3. In the future of the DC universe, Batman pretty much always has some incarnation. From Damian taking the mantle up, to Terry McGennis, hell, even in the far flung 853rd century Batman exists.

To move on...
In an outright fight, I don't think anyone would argue that Batman could beat Cthulhu. However, I can imagine a fantastic story line about Batman having to stop some kind of Lovecraftian problem.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 09:16 PM

Still good enough to get Non-Euclidean Geometry.

Uh, nope.
1. The Modern Age is known as the Great Age of Heroes in history, and their exploits are read as an important time of history. Batman is known as one of the most important of the era.
2. One of the main themes of Batman comics is him being an inspiration to other people, there is an entire team devoted to this concept. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batmen_of_All_Nations)
3. In the future of the DC universe, Batman pretty much always has some incarnation. From Damian taking the mantle up, to Terry McGennis, hell, even in the far flung 853rd century Batman exist.

To move on...
In an outright fight, I don't think anyone would argue that Batman could beat Cthulhu. However, I can imagine a fantastic story line about Batman having to stop some kind of Lovecraftian problem.

Agreed I think its silly to think that in a street brawl Batman could beat him. But its also silly to say that you allow Cthulhu's mind screw nature but don't allow Batman's resistance to it.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 09:40 PM

Seriously, Batman's beaten bigger threats than Cthulhu. It's funny how folks are saying "Bwah no Cthulhu's incomprehensible and Batman couldn't know about his rise!" when *Lovecraft's protagonists* are able to find out the conditions necessary for him waking, and they hardly even try! I'm hardly a Batman fanboy, but this easily goes to him. Seriously, here's how the "fight" goes.

1) Batman is aware of Cthulhu threat, from the same source as any of the infinitely less significant protagonists in the Lovecraft mythos.

2) Batman enacts plan to stop Cthulhu's rise. Between exterminating cults, interrogating members, etc., he discovers everything they know.

3) Batman sabotages plan.

3a) Batman discovers that his planned sabotage actually wakes Cthulhu.

4) Batman activates his contingency plan, which Boomtubes Cthulhu to Apocalypse.

Fan

2011-09-11, 09:47 PM

Except this is neutral ground, where Batman has his standard on hand gadgets.. and nothing else.

This is a Fist Fight. Not a battle of wits.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 09:49 PM

Except this is neutral ground, where Batman has his standard on hand gadgets.. and nothing else.

This is a Fist Fight. Not a battle of wits.

Then Batman Loses but only because he's got nothing with him when he's taken that can put ole squid head down, not because he goes crazy.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 09:49 PM

... Then yes. Batman fistfighting an Elder God would not turn out well for him. The old standby, though, holds true. With prep time, Batman wins because of Boomtube technology.

Fan

2011-09-11, 09:51 PM

Then Batman Loses but only because he's got nothing with him when he's taken that can put ole squid head down, not because he goes crazy.

He has stuff with him, he just can't manufacture a Deus Ex Machina. In fact, the OTHER win would actually enrage me more in a story, and is patently bad writing, not by my standard, but it's the literal definition of "Ass pull" which is standard grade bad writing. If there was a government sanction for bad writing, THAT WOULD BE IT.

Zain

2011-09-11, 09:51 PM

4) Batman activates his contingency plan, which Boomtubes Cthulhu to Apocalypse.

You see, that's where you fail to convince me, while I'm not sure exactly what a Boomtube is, having only read parts of the Cthulhu mythos, I'm fairly sure, based off the descriptions in said mythos, that Cthulhu would probably ignore them.

As for the people mentioning him being taken down by a steam boat, I feel we should rehash the context behind that statement. Yes, it's true that Cthulhu, after waking up early, is rammed by a steamboat, and then, instead of eating the people aboard the ship, decides to simply go back to sleep. That was his choice, he could have quite easily decided to eat us all, but instead hit the snooze button.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 09:55 PM

A boomtube is a sort of instantaneous transportation device. One that forcibly sucked Darkseid and his entire invasion fleet back to Apocalypse. One that Cthulhu would *not* be able to ignore.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 09:56 PM

It boils down to this. Does Batman win every scenario Hell No. But one thing people don't understand with the whole Batman Prep Time thing is when they are fans of him from sources other than comics.

DC characters have access to such high level tech and magic that most other continuites and story universes don't stand a chance.

Superman has a personal Time Machine.
Nightwing has access to ships capable of shattering lightspeed.
Doctor Fate can be in almost every point of space at once and turn an entire planet into confetti
Starbreaker is vampire that feeds on dieing worlds.
Darkseid causes reality to break down simply by existing in a place.

1/10th of the entire human population of earth has the potential to develop superhuman abilities. There was even a pre-emptive alien invasion because of the fear of them all activating. and deciding to take over the universe.

Devonix

2011-09-11, 10:00 PM

He has stuff with him, he just can't manufacture a Deus Ex Machina. In fact, the OTHER win would actually enrage me more in a story, and is patently bad writing, not by my standard, but it's the literal definition of "Ass pull" which is standard grade bad writing. If there was a government sanction for bad writing, THAT WOULD BE IT.

Its not an ass pull when these things exist and the character has access to them. Poor writing would be him not trying to utilize them.

Contrary to what some people think Nolanverse Batman is not more Batman than Comic Book Batman. You can like him better and thats fine. But If you live in a world where these things are available then you are going to use them.

Mr.Bookworm

2011-09-11, 10:04 PM

1) Batman is aware of Cthulhu threat, from the same source as any of the infinitely less significant protagonists in the Lovecraft mythos.

The "same source" would be total blind luck. Literally almost every single protagonist in the Mythos ends up involved in the events of the stories because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time, and then get dragged into events.

2) Batman enacts plan to stop Cthulhu's rise. Between exterminating cults, interrogating members, etc., he discovers everything they know.

3) Batman sabotages plan.

There's not a plan. Cthulhu wakes up every now and then when the stars are right. The bunch of lunatics chanting his name have absolutely no causation on Cthulhu's rise. In the Call of Cthulhu, R'lyeh rises with absolutely no input from the protagonists, and them bumbling around it is what actually ends up provoking Cthulhu into murdering them.

4) Batman activates his contingency plan, which Boomtubes Cthulhu to Apocalypse.

Batman doesn't have a Mother Box, even presuming he has a Boomtube, and even presuming that he could actually get a Boomtube near Cthulhu. I'm pretty sure the rules of this, as with any versus debate, are "the character alone". It's not Batman and the Justice League and Assorted Pals, it's Batman by himself.

EDIT: Even if Batman investigates all of this, it's not like there's a 10 Easy Steps to Killing a Great Old One. All of the information in-universe is distorted, incredibly vague, and/or drives you insane.

Fan

2011-09-11, 10:09 PM

Its not an ass pull when these things exist and the character has access to them. Poor writing would be him not trying to utilize them.

Contrary to what some people think Nolanverse Batman is not more Batman than Comic Book Batman. You can like him better and thats fine. But If you live in a world where these things are available then you are going to use them.

Except he doesn't have them in this scenario QUITE CLEARLY, this isn't Batman + Friends, or Batman + Tools his friends happen to have. This is stuff he has on him during a regular patrol. Not his infinite + 1 newly bad ways to handle people he shouldn't be able to handle.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 10:09 PM

There's not a plan. Cthulhu wakes up every now and then when the stars are right. The bunch of lunatics chanting his name have absolutely no causation on Cthulhu's rise. In the Call of Cthulhu, Rl'yeh rises with absolutely no input from the protagonists, and them bumbling around it are what actually ends up provoking Cthulhu into murdering them.

Right. So Batman goes and blows up a star or other such fun things that could screw with "The stars must align properly." He has the resources to do this.

Batman doesn't have a Mother Box, even presuming he has a Boomtube, and even presuming that he could actually get a Boomtube near Cthulhu. I'm pretty sure the rules of this, as with any versus debate, are "the character alone". It's not Batman and the Justice League and Assorted Pals, it's Batman by himself.

It's fine if you say that Batman can't access the Justice League members, like Superman, Green Lantern et. al., but once you remove him from the resources which allow him to compete with even his fellow super heroes, you're neutering him in just the same way that making Cthulhu five feet tall would.

Fjolnir

2011-09-11, 10:10 PM

A boom-tube is a teleporter not limited by distance that tears a hole in space and folds reality to create near instantaneous transit between one place and another. It's called a boom tube because when the tunnel opens, it opens with a fairly violent explosion. Its use is fairly heavily regulated in the DCU due to treaties with both New Genesis and Apokalips but Lex Luthor used one to send missiles at a massive kryptonite asteroid during his term as president.

Kindablue

2011-09-11, 10:11 PM

Except he doesn't have them in this scenario QUITE CLEARLY, this isn't Batman + Friends, or Batman + Tools his friends happen to have. This is stuff he has on him during a regular patrol. Not his infinite + 1 newly bad ways to handle people he shouldn't be able to handle.

So what you're saying is no, Batman does not have time to prepare?

Fan

2011-09-11, 10:12 PM

the_druid_droid

2011-09-11, 10:14 PM

Right. So Batman goes and blows up a star or other such fun things that could screw with "The stars must align properly." He has the resources to do this.

I would point out that "when the stars are right" is mostly poetic language, akin to "that is not dead which can eternal lie". Basically, it just means that Cthulu will wait for the right moment to awaken, not that he is necessarily restricted to rise by the position of any physical stars per se.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 10:16 PM

I would point out that "when the stars are right" is mostly poetic language, akin to "that is not dead which can eternal lie". Basically, it just means that Cthulu will wait for the right moment to awaken, not that he is necessarily restricted to rise by the position of any physical stars per se.

Source please.

Mr.Bookworm

2011-09-11, 10:19 PM

Source please.

The English language, specifically re: figures of speech.

Starbuck_II

2011-09-11, 10:19 PM

No, Batman can not just "Blow up Stars", because people in the DCU do not just "blow up stars" That would be a fairly major happening even in an event on Final Crisis's scale.

And yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

Not allowing Batman time to prepare is not "neutering" Batman, it is portraying him as he typically is against his own villains.

Not preparing... are we watching/reading the same Batman? He has contingencies for his contingencies sometimes. He carries Kryptonite in case Superman turns evil/mind controlled (it has happened). He is almost always prepared.
Even Adam West style Batman had a repellant for every situation. The only time he isn't prepared? When emotions like love blind him (Cat Woman). Even for pheromones he has contingencies 1/2 the time (which we would assume work on mind like love, but not for Batman; aka Poison Ivy's plant stuff).

Reverent-One

2011-09-11, 10:19 PM

Not allowing Batman time to prepare is not "neutering" Batman, it is portraying him as he typically is against his own villains.

He would not treat a being like Cthulhu like he would the Joker, or Two-face. For something like Cthulhu, he'd pull out his big guns.

mootoall

2011-09-11, 10:23 PM

The English language, specifically re: figures of speech.

Except you're dealing with a creature that comes from the stars, seems to have a direct connection with the cosmos, and Lovecraft's use of "When the stars aligned" seemed quite literal to me, considering the context.

turkishproverb

2011-09-11, 10:25 PM

Right. So Batman goes and blows up a star or other such fun things that could screw with "The stars must align properly." He has the resources to do this.

It's fine if you say that Batman can't access the Justice League members, like Superman, Green Lantern et. al., but once you remove him from the resources which allow him to compete with even his fellow super heroes, you're neutering him in just the same way that making Cthulhu five feet tall would.

Actually, Batman has most of those resources in storage anyway "in case". Same reason he had the K-Ring and has Synthetic kryptonite. He's got anti-magic tools for the same reason. He prefers to just get an ally because it's not his forte, but he can plenty handle the stuff.

Fact is, Batman's got enough to take down most national militaries, by canon. Supertech, teleporters, BOomtubes (yes, he has them in personal posession.) He has orbital beam weapons (not much use against joker, but against a giant squid-dog? Heck yea)

And that's not even touching upon Bat-centric allies, (as opposed to random DCU ones IE SUPERMAN, Aquaman, etc) whom would be of great aid. Oracle's info gathering would be valuable, police contacts are great for rounding up cultists, his constructionist contacts, Anarky (whom freaking designed and built custom boomtubes, and custom-figured the coordinates to Apokolyps.) That's just naming two people who are unambiguously part of the Bat's "circle" as it were.

After all, if Cthulhu gets cultists, surely batman gets his support team, as long as it' snot calling in random justice league members etc (which was what was specificaly denied)?

Also, FAN, stop adding random conditions because the tentacle face doesn't' come out looking OMGFAWESOME!1!!!1!

The original post didn't include pretty much any of the random crap your listing as requirements, and in fact contradicted some of it (EXAMPLE if it's just the two of them Teleported to some earth alternative, how does Cthulhu have his cultists?).

Mando Knight

2011-09-11, 10:26 PM

This is stuff he has on him during a regular patrol.
The stuff he has on him during a "regular patrol" usually isn't enough to take out specific, global-scale threats anyway, especially if he's not expecting them. Pretty sure he doesn't carry the specific weaknesses of both the entire Justice League and his own rogues gallery on his person when going out to beat up random street thugs.

Given access to the Batcave and some research time, Batman could probably find a way to at least deter Cthulhu. If it's a random encounter while he's punching thugs, then Batman might be able to just convince Cthulhu that some humans are too much of a bother to eat.

the_druid_droid

2011-09-11, 10:28 PM

Except you're dealing with a creature that comes from the stars, seems to have a direct connection with the cosmos, and Lovecraft's use of "When the stars aligned" seemed quite literal to me, considering the context.

Yes, but there aren't any specific stars mentioned. The whole point of Cthulu being a star-spawn is to indicate his alien status and point out that he is not of this earth (as opposed to other monstrosities which are nevertheless native). His alien-ness (or alien-ness in general) is something that is fairly central to HPL's horror, so it gets emphasized both literally and metaphorically.

turkishproverb

2011-09-11, 10:29 PM

Mando Knight, relax. Fan's adding additional rules until the Squid wins. At this rate, I half expect he'll demand it's a Quad-amputee batman. :smalltongue:

Fan

2011-09-11, 10:31 PM

The stuff he has on him during a "regular patrol" usually isn't enough to take out specific, global-scale threats anyway, especially if he's not expecting them. Pretty sure he doesn't carry the specific weaknesses of both the entire Justice League and his own rogues gallery on his person when going out to beat up random street thugs.

Given access to the Batcave and some research time, Batman could probably find a way to at least deter Cthulhu. If it's a random encounter while he's punching thugs, then Batman might be able to just convince Cthulhu that some humans are too much of a bother to eat.

But then we have to let Cthulhu know ahead of time as well.

And then we have to deal with Yog Sothoth, who is to quote.

It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self — not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep — the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign...

Cthulhu's whole awakening thing is intrinsic to the awakening of the other gods, so if he "knew" that there was a being able to stop him (as.. you claim batman could do..), and this is allowing for Batman to bring in Superman, Martian Manhunter, etc (Hawk Girl is permadead. IIRC.).. Then he would awaken the others more swiftly.

Namely his consort, and his children first, but needless to say that Azathoth and Yog Sothoth would eventually come.