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Surrealistik
2011-09-13, 12:26 AM
The wizard, a controller, is actually a better AoE striker than the Sorcerer. This is obviously a problem. The following feats and at-wills aim to improve the Sorcerer to reverse this.

New Class Features:

Focus Fire: Whenever you deal damage to a creature with an attack power that normally targets more than one creature, and that creature is the only target of that attack power, the attack power deals extra damage to that creature equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

Instinctive Arcana: You can Sense the Presence of Magic and Identify Magical Phenomenon each as a minor action instead of a standard, and use your Charisma modifier in place of your Intelligence modifier for the Arcana skill.

Wild Magic: Power Flux: Once per round, as a free action, you can spend a healing surge when you use a sorcerer attack power that deals typed damage, or are hit by a power that deals typed damage. If you do, instead of regaining hit points, change your spell source type to one of the damage types of that power until the end of the encounter.

The first addresses the issue of the sorcerer losing its striking capability when single targeting.

The second is more flavourful, addressing the sorcerer's laughable innate affinity with the Arcana skill.

The third addresses the disadvantage Wild Magic sorcerers often face as a consequence of a completely random spell source damage type.

Feats:

Heroic Tier:
Spontaneous Expansion
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer
Benefit: Before using a sorcerer or sorcerer paragon path power, you can choose to take damage equal to 3 + its level to increase the size of its blast or its burst by 1, or an additional legal target. If that power is a daily power, you take double this amount of damage. Damage taken in this way can't be reduced in any way, and cannot be applied to temporary hit points.

Instinctive Ritualist
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer, spell source class feature
Benefit: You gain the ability to learn and master Arcana rituals. You don't need a ritual book to learn, cast and use Arcana rituals, and you can spend a healing surge to gain a +5 bonus Arcana skill checks made while performing a ritual.

Spontaneous Ritualist
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer, spell source class feature, Instinctive Ritualist Feat
Benefit: At the end of each extended rest, you can spend any number of healing surges. If you do, instead of gaining hit points, you can swap that many Arcana rituals for an equal number of other Arcana rituals. Each Arcana ritual swapped in this way must have an equal or lower level and purchase price until the end of your next extended rest.

Penetrating Arcana
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer, Spell Source class feature
Benefit: Your arcane powers of the damage type of your Spell Source ignore an additional amount of resistance equal to your Charisma modifier. Increase this to 5 + your Charisma modifier at 11th level and to 10 + your Charisma modifier at 21st level. If a creature is immune to that damage type, instead treat that creature as having resist to that damage type of 25.

Destructive Sorcery
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Str 13 or Dex 13, sorcerer
Benefit: When you use a sorcerer or sorcerer paragon path attack power and hit two or more creatures, that power deals +1 extra damage on its damage rolls for each creature in the burst beyond the first. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 21st level.

Improved Power Source
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Str 13 or Dex 13, sorcerer, Spell Source class feature
Benefit: Increase the bonus to damage rolls from your power source by +1. This amount increases to +2 at level 11, and +3 at level 21.

Intensifying Assault
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Str 13 or Dex 13, sorcerer, Spell Source class feature
Benefit: When you hit a target with an attack of the damage type of your Spell Source, you gain a +1 power bonus to the damage rolls of the next sorcerer or sorcerer paragon path power you use of that type until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 21st level.

Elemental Infusion
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Genasi, sorcerer
Benefit: When you use a sorcerer or sorcerer paragon path power that has the acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder keyword, you add your Intelligence modifier to damage rolls.

Sympathy of Elements
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer, Spell Source class feature
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with arcane powers against creatures taking ongoing damage of your Spell Source type. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.

Paragon Tier:
Inescapable Arcana
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer, Spell Source class feature
Benefit: When you miss with an arcane power of your Spell Source type and would not normally do damage, you deal damage of your Spell Source's type equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

Empowered Arcana
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer, Spell Source class feature
Benefit: When you use an arcane power you can take damage up to your Dexterity or Strength modifier. If you do that power deals extra damage on a hit equal to the damage taken in this way. Damage taken in this way can't be reduced in any way, and cannot be applied to temporary hit points.

Epic Tier:
Spellshaping Sorcery
Prerequisite: Str 17 or Dex 17, sorcerer
Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the area of effect of any of your area or close sorcerer and sorcerer paragon path powers. This number canít exceed your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

At-Wills:
Scrambling Bolt - Sorcerer Attack 1
Your bolt distorts time and space, casting the target, or yourself through a disorientating rift.
At-Will - Arcane, Force, Implement, Psychic, Teleportation
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d10 + Charisma modifier force and psychic damage. If the attack roll was even, teleport the target 2 squares, and it grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn. If the attack roll was odd, the target teleports you 2 squares, and you grant combat advantage until the end of your next turn.
Wild Magic: You teleport the target one extra square, and the target teleports you one square less.
Level 21: 2d10 + Charisma modifier force damage.

Chaos Salvo - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 20
Target: Up to two creatures
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier damage. The damage type of this attack is equal to your Spell Soul type.
Effect: If you rolled an even number on your first attack roll with this power, you can repeat this attack against an additional creature, otherwise, you repeat this attack against yourself, or an ally within range.
Wild Magic: If you rolled an even number as on your first attack roll with this power, you can repeat this attack against two additional creatures with this power instead of one. You halve all damage you deal to yourself or allies with this power.
Special: You cannot target the same creature more than once per use of this power.
Level 21: 2d6 + Charisma modifier damage.

Chaos Sphere - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Conjuration, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 20
Effect: You conjure a sphere of chaotic energy in a square within range that lasts until the end of the encounter. The sphere's space counts as difficult terrain. At the start of each of your turns, or once per turn whenever an enemy enters the sphere's square, roll a d20. On an odd result add a charge counter to the sphere, and you can move the sphere 1 square. On an even result the sphere detonates, and makes the following attack in a close burst 1:

Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Target: Each creature in the burst.
Hit: 1d12 + Charisma modifier damage. This attack deals +1d12 extra damage for each charge counter on the sphere. You push the target 1 square away from the sphere for each charge counter on the sphere. If the sphere has 3 or more charge counters, the target is knocked prone. The damage type of this attack is equal to your Spell Soul type.
Wild Magic: If you roll 11 or higher on the sphere's first attack roll, the attack ignores you and your allies.
Special: If you have more spheres in play at one time than your Charisma modifier, remove a sphere until the number of them in play is equal to your Charisma modifier.
Level 21: 2d12 + Charisma modifier damage. This attack deals +2d12 extra damage for each charge counter on the sphere.

Prismatic Ray - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Cold, Fire, Implement, Lightning, Radiant
Standard Action - Ranged 20
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC, Will, Fortitude and Reflex
Hit (Any): 1d8 + Charisma modifier cold, fire, lightning and radiant damage. For each defense this attack hits beyond the first, you push the target 1 square and this attack deals +2 extra damage.
Effect: For each defense this attack misses, you take 1 cold, fire, lightning and radiant damage.
Wild Magic: For each even number attack roll that hits beyond the first, the target is subject to one of the following:

Target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
You have concealment against the target until the end of your next turn.
Target grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn.
Target falls prone.

Cosmic Magic: For each attack roll that hits beyond the first, increase the target's vulnerability to your Cosmic Soul damage type by 1 until the end of your next turn.
Dragon Magic: For each attack roll that hits beyond the first, each enemy adjacent to the target takes 2 fire, cold, lightning and radiant damage.
Storm Magic: You can slide the target instead of pushing it.
Special: Only the first attack roll of this power counts for the purpose of triggering critical hits.
Level 21: 2d8 + Charisma modifier fire, cold, thunder and lightning damage. +4 extra damage for each defense this attack hits. You take 24 cold, fire, force and lightning damage for each defense this attack misses.

Tenacious Acid - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Acid, Implement, Poison
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: The target takes 1d10 ongoing acid and poison damage (save ends). If the target already has ongoing acid and poison damage, increase it by this amount.
Each Failed Save: Increase the target's ongoing acid and poison damage by your Strength modifier. Repeat this attack against each enemy adjacent to the target.
Dragon Magic: The target takes a Strength modifier penalty to its first saving throw against this power.
Level 21: 2d10 ongoing acid and poison damage.

Psychic Venom - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Acid, Implement, Poison, Psychic
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target is subject to your psychic venom (save ends). At the start of the target's turn, it makes a saving throw with a -2 penalty. On a failure you slide it 2 squares and it makes a basic attack against the nearest enemy of your choice as a free action. On a success, it takes 1d6 + Charisma modifier poison and psychic damage, can't take opportunity actions, and grants combat advantage until the start of its next turn.
Dragon Magic: The penalty to the target's saving throw is equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.
Cosmic Magic: The target gains a Dexterity modifier bonus to all attack and damage rolls it makes on a failed save.
Level 21: On a success, it takes 2d6 + Charisma modifier poison and psychic damage.

Erosive Spray - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Acid, Implement
Standard Action - Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in the blast
Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d8 + Charisma modifier acid damage. The target takes a -2 penalty to all defenses until the end of your next turn.
Dragon Magic: The penalty is equal to 1 + half your Strength modifier.
Level 21: 2d8 + Charisma modifier acid damage.

Volcanic Blast - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Fire, Implement, Thunder, Zone
Standard Action - Area burst 1 within 10 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Charisma modifier fire and thunder damage.
Effect: The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Creatures that enter the zone or end their turn there take 1 + Strength modifier fire damage. A creature can only take this damage once per turn.
Dragon Magic: The zone does not affect you or your allies.
Level 21: 2d8 + Charisma modifier fire and thunder damage.

Light Spear - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Acid, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Charisma modifier radiant damage. The target sheds bright light out to 5 squares and creatures more than 2 squares away from the target have concealment and combat advantage against it until the end of your next turn.
Cosmic Magic: Each enemy adjacent to the target takes Strength modifier radiant damage.
Level 21: 2d8 + Charisma modifier radiant damage.

Penetrating Ray - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Force, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action - Ranged 20
Target: One creature.
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex. This attack ignores partial cover and superior cover.
Hit: 1d10 + Charisma modifier force and radiant damage. Each creature and object providing cover to the target takes half this damage.
Cosmic Magic: Each creature and object providing cover to the target takes full damage instead.
Level 21: 2d10 + Charisma modifier force and radiant damage.

Storm Crash - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Implement, Lighting, Thunder,
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 lightning damage.
Effect: Make a secondary attack in a close burst 1 centered on the target.
Secondary Target: Each creature in the burst
Secondary Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 thunder damage.
Storm Magic: If both attacks hit the primary target, it falls prone and takes Dexterity modifier extra thunder and lightning damage.
Level 21: 2d8 lightning damage, 2d6 thunder damage.

Driving Pulse - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Implement, Thunder, Zone
Standard Action - Wall 5 within 10 squares.
Target: Each creature in the wall.
Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier thunder damage. This attack deals +1 extra damage and you slide the target 1 square to another square in or adjacent to the wall for each target hit by this power. This forced movement cannot move the target closer to you.
Storm Magic: The wall creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn. Once per turn, whenever a creature enters the zone, slide that creature 1 square for each creature in the zone to another square within or adjacent to the zone. This forced movement cannot move the target closer to you.
Level 21: 2d6 + Charisma modifier thunder damage.

Charged Bolt - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Implement, Lighting,
Standard Action - Area burst 1 within 10 squares
Special: When you use this power, you can expend any number of minor actions. For each minor action spent in this way, this power gains +5 extra range, deals Dexterity modifier extra damage, and you push the target 1 extra square. If you spend two or more minor actions in this way, this power knocks the creature in the burst's origin square prone.
Target: Each creature in the burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier lightning damage. You push the target 1 square away from the burst.
Storm Magic: If you spent two or more minor actions using this power, increase the size of the burst by 1.
Level 21: 2d6 + Charisma lighting damage.


Encounters:
Level 1 Encounters:

Unstable Anomaly - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Conjuration, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 20
Effect: You conjure a sphere of unstable anomaly in a square within range that lasts until the end of the encounter. The anomaly's square counts as difficult terrain. At the start of each creature's turn, if the anomaly has line of effect to a creature within three squares of it, make the Unstable Anomaly Attack, otherwise teleport it up to 3 squares.

Unstable Anomaly Attack
At-Will - Arcane, Implement, Teleportation
No Action - Close burst 3
Requirement: The Unstable Anomaly power must be active to use this power.
Trigger: A creature starts its turn within 3 squares of the pattern
Primary Target: The triggering creature in the burst
Primary Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The primary target and anomaly teleport, swapping places.
Miss: You teleport the anomaly 3 squares.
Effect: If the attack roll was even, the anomaly gains a charge counter. If the attack roll is odd, the anomaly detonates, making the following attack in a close burst 3:

Secondary Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Secondary Target: Each creature in the burst.
Hit: 1d12 + Charisma modifier damage. You teleport the secondary target 1 square. For each charge counter on the anomaly, this attack deals +1d12 extra damage for each charge counter on the anomaly, and you teleport the secondary target 1 extra square. The damage type of this attack is equal to your Spell Source type.
Wild Magic: If you roll 11 or higher on the sphere's first attack roll, the secondary attack targets enemies only.



Fickle Boon - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane
Minor Action - Personal
Effect: Roll 1d20. If the roll is 10 or less, choose a level 1 arcane at-will power you don't know. You can use that power once before the end of the encounter. Otherwise, choose a level 1 arcane encounter power you don't know. You can use that power once before the end of the encounter.
Wild Magic: You gain a bonus to the roll equal to 1 + half your Dexterity modifier.


Eldritch Ignition - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action - Close burst 10
Target: One creature in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: If the attack roll is even the target takes ongoing damage equal to the attack roll (save ends). If the attack roll is odd, repeat this attack against a creature other than the target not currently subject to this power's effects, using the target's square as the origin square. The damage type of this attack is equal to fire and your Spell Source type.

Each Failed Saving Throw: Repeat this attack from the target's space against a creature not currently subject to this power's effects.
Aftereffect: Repeat this attack from the target's space against a creature not currently subject to this power's effects other than the target.
Wild Magic: Whenever this power instructs you to repeat this attack against a creature, instead you repeat the attack against an enemy.

Forcepulse - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Force, Implement
Standard Action - Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in the burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d12 + Charisma modifier damage. The type of this damage is force and your Spell Soul damage types. You push the target a number of squares equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier.
Miss: Half damage. You push the target 1 square.
Dragon Magic: The burst creates a zone until the end of your next turn. Enemies that enter the zone take Strength modifier damage. A creature cannot take damage in this way more than once per turn. The type of this damage is your Spell Soul damage types.
Cosmic Magic: You gain an aura 1 until the end of your next turn. Enemies have concealment from enemies in the aura.
Wild Magic: You gain an aura 1 until the end of your next turn. Enemies in the aura grant combat advantage.
Storm Magic: You gain an aura 1 until the end of your next turn. Squares in the aura count as difficult terrain to enemies.
[/INDENT]

Rebounding Bolt - Sorcerer Attack 1
At-Will - Arcane, Conjuration, Implement, Lightning, Thunder
Standard Action - Close burst 1
Effect: You conjure a rebounding bolt in a square within the burst. The square lasts until the end of the current turn. You can then move the rebounding bolt up to 5 squares as a free action. Each square of this movement must move the rebounding bolt further away from you. Whenever the bolt enters a creature's space (including when you conjure it), it makes the following attack in a close burst 1:

Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Target: The triggering creature in the burst
Storm Magic, Effect: You slide the target 1 square, or knock the target prone.
Hit: 1d12 + Charisma modifier lightning and thunder damage. You can move the rebounding bolt up to 5 squares as a free action. Each square of this movement must move the rebounding bolt further away from the target.

Special: You cannot target the same creature with this power more than once.



Utilities:
Level 2 Utilities:
Soul Splice - Sorcerer Utility 2
Encounter * Arcane
Free Action - Personal
Effect: Choose a damage type other than your Spell Soul's current damage type. Your Spell Soul is of that damage type in addition to its current damage type until the end of your next turn.

Ilorin Lorati
2011-09-13, 12:57 AM
In 4th edition, strikers are single target specialists, while controllers are AoE specialists. I can quote the text from the PHB if you need a confirmation.

Surrealistik
2011-09-13, 01:00 AM
In 4th edition, strikers are single target specialists, while controllers are AoE specialists. I can quote the text from the PHB if you need a confirmation.

Sorcerers are definitely more about AoE than single target striking though; that's their niche (much like the Monk). So in that sense, they're kind of an exception to the rule.

It's problematic when a class that already has a really strong niche (mass hindering/disabling) as per the Wizard is also better than the Sorc at sheer mass damage output which it is supposed to specialize at.

MagnusExultatio
2011-09-13, 01:04 AM
In 4th edition, strikers are single target specialists, while controllers are AoE specialists. I can quote the text from the PHB if you need a confirmation.

The PHB doesn't know what a Controller is. WotC has confirmed it.

Ilorin Lorati
2011-09-13, 01:11 AM
Sorcerers are definitely more about AoE than single target striking though; that's their niche (much like the Monk). So in that sense, they're kind of an exception to the rule.

It's problematic when a class that already has a really strong niche (mass hindering/disabling) as per the Wizard is also better than the Sorc at sheer mass damage output which it is supposed to specialize at.

I'll take your word for it. I lack practice with either class and was just going off what I was told.

vasharanpaladin
2011-09-13, 02:20 PM
Not anymore! Arcanist says hi, wizards are seeing their +striker goodies axed. So invokers are the better strikers now, which poses a similar problem. :smallwink:

Anyway. My take on it (and CharOp's) is that the Sorc's issue is that it does AoE... and little else. A monk, while considered a melee blaster, still functions about the same with only a single target to whale on. A sorcerer not only has inadequate single-target powers to use in this situation, but also a dearth of friendly AoE ones.

So, my solution? Divine bolts as a sorc at-will. Probably with larger damage die, but there ya go: divine bolts is exactly what the sorcerer needs, and it's an invoker at-will. More at-will spells, more encounter and daily spells like that, and we can ignore the sorc's painful lack of off-action hits, which should at least bring it up to consideration alongside the warlock.

...

My 2cp. Take it as you will. :smallbiggrin:

Surrealistik
2011-09-13, 03:24 PM
Not anymore! Arcanist says hi, wizards are seeing their +striker goodies axed. So invokers are the better strikers now, which poses a similar problem. :smallwink:

When did Wizards lose their striker goodies? Elemental Empowerment, Enlarge Spell, and all the fire enhancing feats are still around.


Anyway. My take on it (and CharOp's) is that the Sorc's issue is that it does AoE... and little else. A monk, while considered a melee blaster, still functions about the same with only a single target to whale on. A sorcerer not only has inadequate single-target powers to use in this situation, but also a dearth of friendly AoE ones.

I don't think there's a problem in specializing almost singly in AoE, if you do it better than anyone else. The problem is they don't.


So, my solution? Divine bolts as a sorc at-will. Probably with larger damage die, but there ya go: divine bolts is exactly what the sorcerer needs, and it's an invoker at-will. More at-will spells, more encounter and daily spells like that, and we can ignore the sorc's painful lack of off-action hits, which should at least bring it up to consideration alongside the warlock.

Actually a similar at-will power, Chaos Salvo, is one of the new at-wills I've brewed in the OP. That said, I don't think more multitargeting ranged powers is necessarily the solution; better AoE in general, and some off-turn and more single target orientated options are collectively probably the best approach, in addition to feat support that make it the best at what it does.

Surrealistik
2011-09-13, 05:55 PM
Added the Chaos Sphere, Driving Pulse and Prismatic Ray at-wills.

A.J.Gibson
2011-09-27, 02:55 PM
Is this thread still being posted to? I'm wildly in favour of fixing the sorcerer, but I think we're missing the core problem with sorcerers. Sorcerers are great at damaging clustered groups of enemies, but the moment that circumstance no longer applies, they no longer function as strikers. So if you're fighting one enemy, of the enemies are all far apart (more than 5 squares), you're no longer using your class features effectively. That's the problem that needs to be addressed. That being said, the sorcerer (at least strength-based) is supposed to be a melee skirmisher, and we shouldn't try to turn them into wizards (the way wizards have been turned into sorcerers).

Now let's take a look at some of the feats proposed:

"Spontaneous Expansion"

I'd suggest copying the wizard's Enlarge Spell feat: add 1 to bursts, and 2 to blasts. Adding an additional target to a burst is troublesome, because some powers only affect 1 or 2 targets in the burst, and this feat would increase it's power by 50% to 100%. That's too much. Still, simply adding more area to sorcerer attacks I think would be a huge fix.

"Instinctive Arcana"

Cool.

"Penetrating Arcana"

Kinda circumstantial. The Lightning Lord can ignore all lightning resistance, period, and it's only a minor class feature.

"Destructive Sorcery"

Doing more damage for doing more damage? Interesting. The pre-req is kinda redundant, though.

"Intensifying Assault"

Underpowered. Compare to Implement Focus, which gives you the same damage bonus at all times. Frostcheesers may like this.

"Elemental Infusion"

Interesting, but given Int is a dump stat for most sorcerers, very subjective. I would have gone with "use int in place of str/dex for extra damage feature", and then the genasi dump str/dex, and hybrid into another arcane class.

"Sympathy of Elements"
This is *really* subjective. Unless a character is built to exploit this feat, it will be near useless, but I can see an acid-sorcerer having some fun with this.

"Inescapable Arcana"
Doing damage on a miss is very good, though this might be ripe for abuse with frostcheese.

"Empowered Arcana"
Sacrifice hp for more damage. Definitely useful.

"Spellshaping Sorcery"
This will effectively make most powers party-friendly. It might be a little too strong, since being party unfriendly is supposed to be the sorcerer's weakness.

I'd like to see some feats for dealing with single targets, and feats allowing more targets to be hit more easily (like the first one). For single targets, something like:

"When you use a blast or burst power to strike a single target, you receive a +2 bonus to hit"

would make a lot of the sorcerer's powers work well against single targets as well. A lot of the existing single target sorcerer powers have the same damage output as the multi-targeting power, except they don't affect multiple targets. This is silly.

There is one last issue I think needs to be addressed with sorcerers: the general lack of elemental specific build support. You can easily make a cold-based sorcerer, but acid-based or poison-based sorcerers don't even have a power available at every level, and no feats that support their specific elements (like Lasting Frost supports cold).

Surrealistik
2011-09-27, 03:11 PM
It should be noted that most of the feats quoted are actually adapted Wizard damage boosting feats translated to the sorcerer.

Concerning Spontaneous Expansion (which is actually based on Enlarge Spell), I think taking damage equal to one's level in order to _either_ enlarge the AoE by 1 _or_ gain an additional target (which typically has less impact than if you'd increased the AoE by 1) is fair.

Elemental Infusion is intentionally an off-stat, as this was the case with the Wizard version it's based off of (Elemental Empowerment).

Spellshaping Sorcery is actually based on the Wizard Epic feat Spell Accuracy. If the latter gains access to this feat at epic, I don't see why the Sorcerer can't have something equivalent.

I will look into adding more powers/feats for specific elemental types (though poison and acid has gained some new at-wills). At the moment, I wanted to port over some of the better Wizard feats.

Lastly, I agree with the idea that Sorcerers need something to help them when they can't multitarget, but that said, their single target damage should invariably be worse by design vis a vis most other strikers than multitarget damage given their proficiency at the latter.

Eldest
2011-09-27, 03:13 PM
First, good for you to work on sorcerer powers, they do need the power boost.
Tenacious Acid
Am I right in understanding that this hits for 1d10, then you must save against it or take the same amount of damage as you took last turn + strength. And every time you fail the save, all of your allies get attacked by the power.
So whats stopping somebody from spamming this on a cluster of baddies? And why would you not want to?

Surrealistik
2011-09-27, 03:15 PM
First, good for you to work on sorcerer powers, they do need the power boost.
Tenacious Acid
Am I right in understanding that this hits for 1d10, then you must save against it or take the same amount of damage as you took last turn + strength. And every time you fail the save, all of your allies get attacked by the power.
So whats stopping somebody from spamming this on a cluster of baddies? And why would you not want to?

Nothing. The thing is most baddies generally have the opportunity to move away from their allies before they spread the ongoing.

Eldest
2011-09-27, 03:40 PM
So that is how it works them?
Not sure if it's overpowered, but it is definataly powerful then.

Surrealistik
2011-09-27, 03:50 PM
So that is how it works them?
Not sure if it's overpowered, but it is definataly powerful then.

Keep in mind it's single target 5.5 + mods ongoing, the penalty for a failed save is roughly +3-6 more ongoing damage depending on tier/level. The spread clause is pretty conditional, and will usually require forced movement and/or movement denial to impose as the target can move away from his allies, and his allies can move away from the target. You essentially sacrifice short term damage for longer term results.

A.J.Gibson
2011-09-27, 04:57 PM
It should be noted that most of the feats quoted are actually adapted Wizard damage boosting feats translated to the sorcerer.

Concerning Spontaneous Expansion (which is actually based on Enlarge Spell), I think taking damage equal to one's level in order to _either_ enlarge the AoE by 1 _or_ gain an additional target (which typically has less impact than if you'd increased the AoE by 1) is fair.

Elemental Infusion is intentionally an off-stat, as this was the case with the Wizard version it's based off of (Elemental Empowerment).

Spellshaping Sorcery is actually based on the Wizard Epic feat Spell Accuracy. If the latter gains access to this feat at epic, I don't see why the Sorcerer can't have something equivalent.

I will look into adding more powers/feats for specific elemental types (though poison and acid has gained some new at-wills). At the moment, I wanted to port over some of the better Wizard feats.

Lastly, I agree with the idea that Sorcerers need something to help them when they can't multitarget, but that said, their single target damage should invariably be worse by design vis a vis most other strikers than multi-target damage given their proficiency at the latter.

A couple things:

First, just because it's a wizard feat, doesn't mean it's not ridiculously overpowered. :D

Second, for Spontaneous Expansion, consider what would happen if I used Bedeviling Burst. By spending 1 hit point, I can do 1d10 damage + charisma + secondary stat to a target at level 1.

Finally, I think the best way to handle the sorcerer vs one target problem is to give them controller effects for attacks against a single target. For example: whenever you strike a single target with an arcane attack, the target takes -2 to attack until the end of your next turn. This would stop them from stepping on the ranger's or rogue's area.

On a side note, why is there no feat that increases the damage from your class feature? Warlocks, Rogues, and Rangers all have feats for increasing their damage die a size, why not sorcerers?

Surrealistik
2011-09-27, 05:29 PM
A couple things:

First, just because it's a wizard feat, doesn't mean it's not ridiculously overpowered. :D

Second, for Spontaneous Expansion, consider what would happen if I used Bedeviling Burst. By spending 1 hit point, I can do 1d10 damage + charisma + secondary stat to a target at level 1.

Hmm, perhaps increasing the damage floor would be a good idea; 3 + the spell level.

As for some Wizard feats being OP, I agree, but they're probably here to stay, so the Sorcerer has to account for that.


Finally, I think the best way to handle the sorcerer vs one target problem is to give them controller effects for attacks against a single target. For example: whenever you strike a single target with an arcane attack, the target takes -2 to attack until the end of your next turn. This would stop them from stepping on the ranger's or rogue's area.


Not a fan of making them more controllery; I'd say just double the striker damage bonus (which will always be smaller than Quarry or Sneak Attack) as per the Focus Fire class feature.


On a side note, why is there no feat that increases the damage from your class feature? Warlocks, Rogues, and Rangers all have feats for increasing their damage die a size, why not sorcerers?

Yeah, I'll add one; increases their bonus striker damage by +1 per tier.

A.J.Gibson
2011-09-28, 10:03 AM
Not a fan of making them more controllery; I'd say just double the striker damage bonus (which will always be smaller than Quarry or Sneak Attack) as per the Focus Fire class feature.

Yeah, I'll add one; increases their bonus striker damage by +1 per tier.

The sorcerer's damage feature is already almost as much as the ranger or warlocks, and actually overtakes them in epic, doubling it would be a little excessive.

+1 / tier sounds about right, since that is effectively what increasing the die size by 1 step does for the ranger and warlock.

Surrealistik
2011-09-28, 11:24 AM
The sorcerer's damage feature is already almost as much as the ranger or warlocks, and actually overtakes them in epic, doubling it would be a little excessive.

A more apt comparison would be the Rogue, given that the Ranger's true striking mechanism is Twin Strike, and the Warlock's true striking mechanism is Hellish Rebuke, besides all the secondary effects its curse imposes.

In epic, the Rogue's SA does +17.5 damage pre Backstab, +22.5 post Backstab. At this point, the Sorcerer's dealing about 10 extra damage versus multiple targets (assuming a Dex/Strength mod of 6). With focus fire, 16, averaging out to 13; that seems about right.

Surrealistik
2011-10-04, 03:29 PM
Added the Power Flux subfeature to the Wild Magic spell source.

A.J.Gibson
2011-10-05, 03:15 PM
Added the Power Flux subfeature to the Wild Magic spell source.

Spending a healing surge is pretty expensive. Under what circumstances would a sorcerer want to change their resistance type to the damage type of a power just used?

Surrealistik
2011-10-05, 03:35 PM
Spending a healing surge is pretty expensive. Under what circumstances would a sorcerer want to change their resistance type to the damage type of a power just used?

Since the ability is used as a free action, it's actually before the effects of the power actually apply, so you would get the resistance penetrating benefits of your Wild Soul. The main point of Power Flux is to give Wild Magic casters the ability to control their Soul benefit if desired, though at a price, enabling building around a single damage type.

Power Flux is also useful for gaining encounter long resistance against a monster with a strong damage type theme, as not only will you end up resisting a considerable portion of the triggering attack's damage, but that resistance will recur later in the combat, possibly saving you more than a surge worth of hit points.

A.J.Gibson
2011-10-06, 11:07 AM
Since the ability is used as a free action, it's actually before the effects of the power actually apply, so you would get the resistance penetrating benefits of your Wild Soul. The main point of Power Flux is to give Wild Magic casters the ability to control their Soul benefit if desired, though at a price, enabling building around a single damage type.

Power Flux is also useful for gaining encounter long resistance against a monster with a strong damage type theme, as not only will you end up resisting a considerable portion of the triggering attack's damage, but that resistance will recur later in the combat, possibly saving you more than a surge worth of hit points.

I think the level 2 daily utility that lets you change your resistance pretty much covers this already. Realistically, you won't need the ability to change your damage type very often.

Surrealistik
2011-10-06, 11:45 AM
I think the level 2 daily utility that lets you change your resistance pretty much covers this already. Realistically, you won't need the ability to change your damage type very often.

There are a couple of problems with Elemental Shift.

The first is that it's a daily that only lasts one encounter; if you want to focus on an element, you'll probably end up changing your type more than once per day.

The second is it takes up your 2nd level power slot.

In otherwords, not only is it completely inadequate, but it also precludes you from taking better options.

A.J.Gibson
2011-10-06, 12:53 PM
There are a couple of problems with Elemental Shift.

The first is that it's a daily that only lasts one encounter; if you want to focus on an element, you'll probably end up changing your type more than once per day.

The second is it takes up your 2nd level power slot.

In otherwords, not only is it completely inadequate, but it also precludes you from taking better options.

If you are using this ability reactively, such as to fight a monster with specific attacks or vulnerabilities, then once a day is probably going to be sufficient. If you intend to build a character around a certain element, then you probably should just not play a wild sorcerer.

Surrealistik
2011-10-06, 01:07 PM
If you are using this ability reactively, such as to fight a monster with specific attacks or vulnerabilities, then once a day is probably going to be sufficient. If you intend to build a character around a certain element, then you probably should just not play a wild sorcerer.

I don't think the former is necessarily true, especially in 'themed' dungeons, or environments.

As for the latter, the problem with the wild sorcerer is precisely that it cannot specialize at the moment, and it gets absolutely nothing worthwhile in exchange for that liability, making it easily the weakest of the power source types. Losing out on Dragonshard and Superior Implement damage bonuses and the like is simply unacceptable. Giving it the Power Flux option permits it to both specialize without obviating the importance of its random elements, and tailor its defenses at a fair price.

I have considered an alternative though, in allowing it to change the damage type of its spells to that of the Wild Soul damage type. Unfortunately, the problem with a lack of specialization remains.

vasharanpaladin
2011-10-06, 03:13 PM
I don't think the former is necessarily true, especially in 'themed' dungeons, or environments.

As for the latter, the problem with the wild sorcerer is precisely that it cannot specialize at the moment, and it gets absolutely nothing worthwhile in exchange for that liability, making it easily the weakest of the power source types. Losing out on Dragonshard and Superior Implement damage bonuses and the like is simply unacceptable. Giving it the Power Flux option permits it to both specialize without obviating the importance of its random elements, and tailor its defenses at a fair price.

I have considered an alternative though, in allowing it to change the damage type of its spells to that of the Wild Soul damage type. Unfortunately, the problem with a lack of specialization remains.

Darkwinter Wild Soul. :smallwink:

Eldest
2011-10-06, 03:27 PM
Make variable feats, then?

Surrealistik
2011-10-06, 04:38 PM
Darkwinter Wild Soul. :smallwink:

The problem is it's race specific, and a feat tax.

A.J.Gibson
2011-10-06, 05:11 PM
As for the latter, the problem with the wild sorcerer is precisely that it cannot specialize at the moment, and it gets absolutely nothing worthwhile in exchange for that liability, making it easily the weakest of the power source types. Losing out on Dragonshard and Superior Implement damage bonuses and the like is simply unacceptable. Giving it the Power Flux option permits it to both specialize without obviating the importance of its random elements, and tailor its defenses at a fair price.


Being able to specialize in one element is not that particularly wonderful, depending on what element you go for. The elements that it pays to specialize in (cold, lightning, radiant) tend to be the ones you can get items that do the change for you. You can get a shard of the mage instead of an element-specific shard, and the most damaging Superior Implement is the accurate one, because hitting more often means more damage. The point is that being able to specialize in one element is not necessary to be competitive, and frankly, being variable and unpredictable is the point of the chaos sorcerer as a whole.

Surrealistik
2011-10-06, 05:33 PM
Being able to specialize in one element is not that particularly wonderful, depending on what element you go for. The elements that it pays to specialize in (cold, lightning, radiant) tend to be the ones you can get items that do the change for you. You can get a shard of the mage instead of an element-specific shard, and the most damaging Superior Implement is the accurate one, because hitting more often means more damage. The point is that being able to specialize in one element is not necessary to be competitive, and frankly, being variable and unpredictable is the point of the chaos sorcerer as a whole.

Actually, the most damaging Superior Implement is the one that both buffs your attack versus the defenses you hit and your damage. The reason why the Incendiary Dagger is such a compelling choice for example, is that you get a sizable damage bonus, _and_ usually get your accuracy benefits to boot, a pure reflex targeting blaster being exceptionally easy to pull off. The Crystal Orb for psychic blasters and controllers is another such instance of that ideal.

Second, Shard of the Mage is more expensive. Further, you omit things like Gloves of Ice, the Gifts for the Queen set, Mark of Storm, etc... The fact is there is a massive amount of type specific item and feat support which further benefit specialized mages, and doing without costs the Wild Sorcerer dearly.

Lastly, the Wild Sorcerer does remain variable and unpredictable, even with this change; in fact, if anything, it is more variable than ever, with a dynamic Wild Soul damage type.

A.J.Gibson
2011-10-07, 01:49 PM
Actually, the most damaging Superior Implement is the one that both buffs your attack versus the defenses you hit and your damage. The reason why the Incendiary Dagger is such a compelling choice for example, is that you get a sizable damage bonus, _and_ usually get your accuracy benefits to boot, a pure reflex targeting blaster being exceptionally easy to pull off. The Crystal Orb for psychic blasters and controllers is another such instance of that ideal.

Second, Shard of the Mage is more expensive. Further, you omit things like Gloves of Ice, the Gifts for the Queen set, Mark of Storm, etc... The fact is there is a massive amount of type specific item and feat support which further benefit specialized mages, and doing without costs the Wild Sorcerer dearly.

Lastly, the Wild Sorcerer does remain variable and unpredictable, even with this change; in fact, if anything, it is more variable than ever, with a dynamic Wild Soul damage type.

All right, but why do you need your resistance to match the damage type you're specializing in? Are you meeting creatures resistant to your chosen element multiple times per day?

Surrealistik
2011-10-07, 03:07 PM
All right, but why do you need your resistance to match the damage type you're specializing in? Are you meeting creatures resistant to your chosen element multiple times per day?

It's a useful contingency. Instead of requiring the player to pay a race specific feat tax and/or take a subpar daily power, he can instead use power flux. While I don't normally expect penetration/resistance changing to be required multiple times per day, benefiting from it certainly possible, especially with themed enemies (devils, demons, undead, elementals, etc...). As stated, it also has a side benefit of changing your resistance to one that is more applicable.