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Elitarismo
2011-09-15, 02:46 PM
Before getting into the nitty gritty, a few disclaimers:

The houserules are meant to be used collectively, as a single set. Changing one rule impacts related and associated mechanics, so cherry picking from this list will result in a far less balanced game than not using any of them. As they were devised to make the game more balanced this is clearly counterproductive.

The houserules assume players that already know what they are doing. If they don't, these probably won't be able to help you by themselves. However, said players will also only discover imbalance by accident so that isn't all bad.

The main purpose of my posting these here is to have a reference point on these boards. Of course being a forum thread it's open to commentary, however it is unlikely any changes will be made unless you have a solid logical argument to explain either that a particular thing is missing or that some aspect of it is critically flawed and needs to be changed in the following ways... And a description of those ways follows. Invalid arguments will be ignored, so I ask that you not attempt to derail the thread with them.

If you choose to use these for your own game, keep in mind the other disclaimers. Otherwise you are welcome to do so (you can do it anyways, but again it would be counterproductive and you should just stick to 3.5 then).

It might take more than one post to get everything up, as they are several pages long and I am not sure what the text limit of this forum is.

If you are not a fan of game balance please keep it to yourself.

If you are curious as to the motivation behind a particular change do feel free to ask.

And without further delays, here they are:

Classes:

Barbarians gain DR x/- equal to their Con modifier or their Barbarian class level, whichever is lower. This is in addition to the DR x/- gained at level 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19 and any DR x/- the Barbarian has from items.
Barbarians of level 11 or higher also have Mettle, but only while raging.
The Fighter class is 6 levels long.
Monks get full BAB. Not that that will stop them from failing.
Paladin Smite Evil can be used x times per encounter instead of per day and applies to any attacks made for one round, including AoOs. In addition if you Smite a target that is neither Good nor Evil the Smite still has half normal effect. Note the change to Smite also applies to any other Smite abilities with the target lines changed accordingly.
Paladins have good Will saves, and every six levels they can take a bonus feat from the following list: Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will. Before you laugh, keep in mind what those feats do now.
Rangers need not choose between ranged and melee. They get both the ranged line and the TWF line. If you're using some alternate Ranger progression it replaces one of these (your choice).
As ITWF and GTWF no longer exist, Rangers get Two Weapon Defense and Two Weapon Parry at levels 6 and 11 instead. They still get Two Weapon Fighting at level 2.
Paladins and Rangers have full caster level. Their actual access to spells remains unchanged.
Paladin casting is now Charisma based.
Ranger's Animal Companion progresses at the same rate as the Druid's.
Evoker Wizards, Warmages, and Sorcerers who have Evocation spells as at least a third of their total spells known do one additional damage per damage dice. Such characters can also ignore a number of points of energy resistance on their targets equal to their caster level. This must be applied or not applied to all targets within the spell area and can be chosen at the time of casting. If the target does not actually have any energy resistance, this has no effect. This ability requires no action beyond that required to cast the spell and can be used at will.
Warmage Edge has its bonus cut in half, but it applies to each die. Minimum 1 point per die. Thus an 18 Int Warmage does an additional 2 damage per die. This ability, unlike the others is capped at your Warmage level, even if your caster level is higher for any reason. Thus a CL 20th Warmage who only actually has 15 levels of Warmage only applies the bonus to 15 dice. PRC levels that advance Warmage spellcasting count as Warmage levels for this purpose. Caster level boosts do not.
Warlocks can Eldritch Blast as an attack action as long as it is your turn. This includes Invocations that alter or enhance Eldritch Blast. Any other Invocation still has its usual casting time. Yes, this means you can full attack with it, applying the same or different invocations to each blast. Haste will even grant you an extra shot.
There was a Hexblade fix around written by the creators. I can't find it, but it's in.
Tome of Battle classes, when using a maneuver that specifies they attack once and deliver the effect of the maneuver can full attack with the maneuver, but it will only be used on the first attack of the sequence or the first pair of attacks for those TWF maneuvers. If a maneuver does already allow you to full attack and gain the benefit on each swing you still do. Yes, this does mean Warblades can use a maneuver, then full attack and use a second maneuver while recovering both.
Swordsages get Adaptive Style as a bonus feat. It only applies to maneuvers learned from being a Swordsage. It otherwise functions exactly the same.
Factorums don't exist. They were eaten by a Grue. No, I don't think they're overpowered. They just give me a headache.
Since everyone gets Craft feats automatically, and that steals some of the Artificer's thunder a 5th level Artificer can craft items 20% faster. This increases to 40% faster at level 10, 60% faster at level 15, and 80% faster at level 20. This does not stack with any other effects that expedite the crafting process. You must still meet all of the prerequisites for creating the item, including having the money on hand. This only makes the process faster.
Crusader and Warblade stance progression is delayed by 1 level, so as to match up to the levels at which new stances become available.
Iron Heart Surge has been rewritten to be sensible. See addendum for details.

Feats:

Some feats have been rendered unnecessary or less useful. See other sections for details.
The Weapon Focus line automatically scales with HD. At 4 you are considered to have Weapon Specialization for all purposes, at 8 Greater Weapon Focus, and at 12 Greater Weapon Specialization. Note that it does not matter what class those levels are in. And yes, that does include monsters. All of these extra feats apply to the same weapon type as the original, which must be acquired normally. In addition this line of feats applies to a category of weapons rather than a single type chosen from the following list: Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing. You can still take Weapon Focus more than once, but it must apply to a different category each time.
If you have a Least Dragonmark, and are of at least 6th level you can be considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark for all purposes. At 9th level, you can develop a Greater Dragonmark. If for some reason you don't want to advance your dragonmark, you don't have to.
The caster level of Dragonmark spells is equal to your character level. Dragonmark Heir still provides its usual boost to CL.
The Toughness feat grants 3 + HD HP, and cannot be taken more than once.
Improved Toughness grants 3 + HD HP, requires Toughness and a base Fortitude save of +2, and can still only be taken once.
Metamagic cost reducers cannot reduce the cost of any given metamagic below 1 or by more than 1. Thus Extend Spell cannot be reduced below a +1 spell level metamagic, Empower Spell cannot be reduced below a +1 spell metamagic, and Maximize cannot be reduced below a +2 spell metamagic. Metamagic rods and Sudden Metamagic feats still work normally. Divine Metamagic still works normally, but beware of Dispels!
Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer exist.
Two Weapon Fighting grants you a number of offhand attacks equal to the number of main hand attacks you are entitled to, and does not impose additional to hit penalties for a one handed weapon in the off hand. It also no longer has any prerequisites. In addition, as long as you have the feat attacking once with each hand is an attack action. When making an Attack of Opportunity, you can strike once with each hand as a single AoO.
Two Weapon Defense provides an Insight bonus to AC equal to the number of mainhand attacks you can make derived from BAB.
A third feat exists in the Two Weapon Fighting line called Two Weapon Parry. It requires both of the previous feats and a BAB of 11. With it you can 'hold' a pair of attacks from Two Weapon Fighting, and use those attacks as an Immediate action against an attack made on you. This pair of attacks can either be your primary pair or one of your secondary pairs. If either of your attack rolls are higher than the attack roll of the attack, the attack is parried and does not harm you. If both attack rolls are higher, the attack is parried and if the attack rolls are also sufficient to hit the enemy's AC + 4, you hit them normally with your attacks. If neither are higher, the parry fails and the attack is resolved normally. You must choose to use your stored Parry before learning the result of the attack roll. Parries not used by the start of your next turn are lost.
Improved Trip no longer requires Combat Expertise.
Improved Critical and Keen stack. In addition Improved Critical applies to a category of weapons rather than a single type chosen from the following list: Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.
Improved Sunder, and anything else relating to breaking magic items no longer exists. You can still tunnel through dungeons with your adamantine greatsword if you want.
Any of the feats that give +2 to 2 different skills no longer exist. If they were needed somewhere as a prerequisite, now you don't.
All three of the feats that give +2 to a save still do, except that if your base save bonus of that type is at least +6 you also no longer auto fail saves of that type on a natural 1. You must still actually roll high enough to save normally. If your base save bonus of that type is at least +12 you gain the following additional effect: Fortitude/Will: Mettle. Reflex: Evasion. If you already have these abilities for any reason you instead get a 1/day reroll on a failed save of that type. You must choose to use it after you know you failed the save, but before knowing what the result of doing so is. If the reroll is worse than the original roll, you're still screwed.
Monks are proficient with their own bodies. They are also automatically proficient with gauntlets, which are considered a Monk weapon and do the listed damage or their unarmed strike damage, whichever is the greater. Not that any of this will save them, mind you...
Craft feats no longer grant a discount on the gold cost of an item, and no longer have an XP cost. They still cost the usual amount of time, but are granted automatically to anyone with a sufficient caster level.
If you would be granted a bonus feat that you already have, you can instead take any feat you qualify for. Proficiencies are not considered feats for this purpose. This also only applies to abilities that grant you a specific feat. It only applies to abilities that make you choose a feat from a list if you have every feat on that list.
Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack are no longer restricted to natural weapons. They also grant the same benefit for manufactured weapons, and do not require you to have natural weapons to take them.

General:


Everyone gets maximum HP per HD.
There is no such thing as multiclass penalties.
In addition to the usual uses for Action Points, you can use them to reroll a natural 1 on an attack roll or a saving throw. The normal limits on Action Point usage apply.
Fractional BAB is in effect.
Fractional saves are in effect, but you can get the first level bonus more than once.
LA buyoff is in effect.
Iterative attacks from Base Attack Bonus have a penalty of -5, non stacking. Yes, this does mean a 20th level Warblade swings at +20/+15/+15/+15. This penalty can be further reduced with feats. Refer to feats section for more details.
Full attacks are a Standard action. You still need Pounce in order to benefit from charge based effects on a full attack.
If you have at least 1 BAB, you can Power Attack with any weapon you are proficient in and are treated as if you have the Power Attack feat for all purposes. Yes, this does include ranged weapons. Refer to feats section for more details.
If you have at least 1 BAB, you can Point Blank Shot with any ranged weapon you are proficient in and are treated as if you have the Point Blank Shot feat for all purposes. Refer to feats section for more details.
If you have at least 4 BAB, you can Precise Shot with any ranged weapon you are proficient in and are treated as if you have the Point Blank Shot feat for all purposes. Refer to feats section for more details.
You can become proficient with any weapon by training with it for (7 days - your BAB, minimum 1 day) and making an Int check. The DC is 5 for Simple weapons, 10 for Martial weapons, 15 for Exotic weapons. You cannot take 10 on this check. If this check fails you can try again from the beginning, but if it fails by 5 or more you cannot reattempt to learn that weapon until your BAB permanently improves.
You can become proficient with any armor by training with it for (14 days - your BAB + the armor bonus of the armor, minimum 1 day) and making an Int check. The DC is 7 + the armor bonus of the armor. You cannot take 10 on this check. If this check fails you can try again from the beginning, but if it fails by 5 or more you cannot reattempt to learn that armor until your BAB permanently improves. If the armor has other negative effects such as arcane spell failure or violates Druidic oath you still suffer those drawbacks.
Forgotten Realms, and anything from it is banned. With one exception. Pun Pun actually does exist. He's the overdeity of the campaign, but he ignores all worship or happenings in his domain not related to infinite loops. If anyone does attempt an infinite loop, he kills them before they are born. :P
If you have resistance to energy from a permanent, inherent source such as a racial bonus, that resistance applies against each attack made against you that it applies to and not merely as a per round thing. More like DR, less like temporary HP. In addition this stacks with any resistance you have from non permanent and/or inherent sources such as the Resist Energy spell, or a Ring of Greater Fire Resistance. Other sources of elemental resistances still do not stack.

Items:

WBL has been increased by 50%. This also means enemies will have 50% more treasure (and use that treasure against you). Beware!
Keen and Improved Critical stack. Listed twice to be sure you catch it.
Burst type effects (elemental burst, holy burst, etc) have the burst aspect of their damage doubled. The basic on hit damage remains unchanged.
Magic armor, magic shields, enhancement bonus to natural armor items, and deflection bonus to AC items have the cost of said properties cut in half. Thus armor and shields are 500 * bonus squared and natural armor and deflection items are 1,000 * bonus squared. Magic weapons keep the same cost.
The maximum enhancement bonus possible on such items is now +8, not +5. Magic armor and shields can still only have up to +9 worth of special properties in total. Magic weapons keep the same limitations.
There is no such thing as Dust of Sneezing and Choking. The Thought Bottles swallowed it all, before they were also erased from existence.
If you really want to play a Monk anyways, despite their ineptitude gauntlets are considered an unarmed strike and can be enchanted the same as any other weapon. This also applies to real unarmed combatant classes. Like CoDzillas. :D
Amulet of Natural Attacks no longer exists. Instead it's Bracers of Natural Attacks, to dodge the off slot mark up and make the price 4k * bonus squared.
The following items do not exist: All of those minor SR items in the DMG, the Brilliant Energy weapon property (it's just bad), and all those terrible named items in the DMG (It's a trap!).
Vorpal now triggers on a critical hit, not just on a natural 20. Yes, I am aware that lets someone with IC: Slashing and a Keen Vorpal slashing weapon behead people 45% of the time or so. It's a +5 enchantment, it had better be good. To dual wield with it you need two such weapons, at a minimum cost of 196,000 gold. Also Vorpal was errataed so Death Ward blocks it. Who doesn't have Death Ward at those levels? This also makes Heavy Fort block it. See previous comment.
The Bane weapon enchantment also bypasses all damage reduction by creatures of that type, even if you could not normally bypass that type of damage reduction with that type of attack and even if that type of damage reduction normally cannot be bypassed at all.
Any weapon labeled as 'finesseable' will allow you to use your Dexterity for attack and damage instead of your Strength if you so choose. It's just something you can do.
The Aptitude weapon enhancement does not exist.

Races:


Half elves gain bonus skill points as humans. This is in addition to all of their other features.
Half orcs gain a bonus feat as humans. This is in addition to all of their other features.
Tieflings have -2 Wis instead of -2 Cha. Their other stats are unchanged.


Skills:

Class skills no longer exist. Yes, this means everyone can take Tumble and UMD. Of course since even the best skills aren't that great, and the DCs there are relatively low this doesn't matter.
Anyone who would normally have 2 + Int skills instead has 4 + Int skills. Those that already have 4 or more skill points per level remain unchanged.
The following skills have been combined: Balance and Tumble = Acrobatics (Dex). Handle Animal and Ride = Animal Affinity (Wis). Climb, Jump, and Swim = Athletics (Str). Listen and Spot = Perception (Wis). Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate = Persuasion (Cha). Hide and Move Silently = Stealth (Dex). Disable Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand = Thievery (Dex). Decipher Script and Forgery = Wordsmithing (Int). In addition Use Rope is now a function of Escape Artist, Survival is a function of Knowledge (nature), and Concentration is a factor of Spellcraft (Con for Concentration, Primary Casting Stat for Spellcraft).
Untrained Knowledge skills can reveal information with a DC higher than 10. Of course you're still untrained, so don't expect miracles here.
When using the Craft skill to create a non magical item, determine the time it will take to complete the item using the formula for magic items (1,000 gold/day) instead of the existing formula. If this would result in a time of less than 1 day instead use the following formula: Less than 50 gold = 1 hour, 51-250 gold = 2 hours, every 125 gold or fraction thereof = +1 hour.
Permanent increases to Intelligence provide retroactive skill points. Temporary increases to Intelligence do not grant additional skills.
When using the Use Magic Device skill to emulate caster level, you may not emulate a caster level higher than your own. If you have no caster level, you may not emulate a caster level higher than your hit dice. If your skill check would yield a higher result than your CL or HD, it is instead capped at your CL or HD.

Spells:

Blasting spells:

To qualify as a blasting spell for the purposes of this discussion a spell must have a primary function of doing damage. If a spell only does damage it qualifies as a blasting spell. If a spell does damage and has an additional effect it only counts as a blasting spell if the additional effect is less useful than HP damage. (hint: it's probably not) Thus Orb of ______ spells do not qualify. Lesser Orb of ______ spells do. It should be obvious what the difference is between blasting spells and save or loses that happen to do damage.

All blasting spells have the following changes made to them:

SR: All blasting spells have SR: No. If they already are SR: No, they continue to be.

Damage: If the base damage dice of the spell are D4, D6, or D8, add 1 damage per die. If the base damage dice are D10 or D12, add 2 damage per die. The usual damage dice limits still apply. This bonus damage is of the same type as the spell itself.

General:


Conjuration (calling) effects no longer exist. If this is the entire purpose of the spell or item (Planar Ally, Planar Binding, etc) those spells do not exist. If the spell or item has other functions (Gate, Candle of Invocation, etc), it still has them but can no longer call creatures. Conjuration (summoning) effects are unaffected.
Shapechange no longer exists. Alter Self and Polymorph remain unchanged.
The Celerity line of spells no longer exist.
Mordenkainen's (Game) Disjunction no longer exists. If you want to turn off enemy magic items, use a Chain Dispel. Then you don't destroy your own loot.
Magic Vestment, Barkskin, and Shield of Faith now gives a bonus of +2, +1 per 3 CLs rounded down, max 8. Greater Magic Weapon remains unchanged, but if you prepare any of these spells in a slot 3 levels higher than the spell is for you or cast them spontaneously out of a slot 3 levels higher you can instead cast a Mass version of that type, targeting up to one target (people for Barkskin and Shield of Faith, armor or shields for Magic Vestment, weapons for Greater Magic Weapon) per caster level within 30 feet. The exceptions are Rangers and Barkskin, who can cast a mass Barkskin out of a 4th level spell slot and Artificers, who can cast a Mass Greater Magic Weapon out of a 6th level infusion slot. In addition, Dragonskin is +1, +1 per 2 CLs rounded down, max 8. The energy resistance part remains the same, and there is no multi target option.
The +4 enhancement to a stat line of spells (Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Bear's Endurance/Fox's Cunning/Owl's Insight/Eagle's Splendor.) has a duration of 10 minutes/level.
Mage Armor is an Abjuration spell.
Enlarge Person has a Standard action casting time. This also affects similar effects, such as Expansion.
Unfettered Heroism (or whatever that spell is that gives you an Action Point a round) does not exist.
If you have spell resistance, and beneficial spells are cast on you, those spells are not hindered by your spell resistance. They should not be considered SR: No, however... While you are in no danger of having a Heal spell fizzle on you if you are a living creature with spell resistance, an undead with spell resistance would not be automatically affected by the same Heal spell as it is not beneficial to it. Such an undead could benefit from a Harm spell in exactly the same way though.
Blasphemy and similar effects have been rewritten to be sensible. See addendum for details.
Power Word spells have all HP caps increased by 50%.
Power Word: Maladroit and Weaken are instead 2nd level spells that apply ability penalties, as Ray of Clumsiness or Enfeeblement. The durations are a static one minute but the severity of the penalty depends on HP: 1st tier = 4d4, 2nd tier = 2d4, 3rd tier = 1d4.

Healing:

All non Mass Cure spells gain a bonus equal to the user's Wis bonus (if any) per die. This is regardless of the source of the cure, be it from spell, wand, potion, or other item.
Mass Cure spells gain two additional dice (D8s) of healing, and gain a bonus equal to the user's Wis bonus (if any) per two dice, rounded up.
Other forms of HP recovery, such as Repair spells function in the same way except with Int or Cha (whichever is the caster's associated stat) in place of Wisdom.

Weapons:

Ranged weapons:


Heavy crossbows (including their repeating forms) have their base damage die increased by one step. As this is a modification to the base item, it stacks with any other effects of that type.
Crossbows can be made to utilize the user's Strength bonus by mechanisms that provide more resistance, and recoil when fired that requires a stronger user in order to utilize properly. This otherwise works just like composite bows, including the +75 (light) or +100 (heavy) gold per + of strength bonus on the 'pull'.
Crossbows, but not bows can ignore a number of points of armor or natural armor bonus equal to the strength bonus of the crossbow or the strength bonus of the wielder, whichever is the lower. Crossbows do not bypass AC that is not armor or natural armor, and if the target has less armor or natural armor than you have penetrating power the remainder has no effect. Yes, this does effectively give you Str and Dex to hit with a crossbow against armored foes.
Composite bows and crossbows can have their pull increased, but not decreased by a skilled bowyer. This requires materials of a total cost of the price difference between the current and the new item + 50 gold, 1 hour of time, and a successful Craft (bowyer) check made at the end of this process. The DC on this skill check is 10 + the new composite bonus of the bow + 2 if the bow or crossbow is an exotic weapon. Failing this check requires the bowyer to restart the hour long process from the beginning but their materials remain intact. Failing by 5 or more ruins the materials but does not harm the bow or crossbow. Yes, the DC is intentionally low. That's because...
A new wondrous item exists in the form of the Sniper's Bowstring. Despite its name, it also works fine with any crossbow, including magical bows and crossbows. Any bow or crossbow fitted with a Sniper's Bowstring automatically counts as composite adjusted to their current Strength score. Its market value is 1,000 gold and can be crafted by anyone with a CL of 3, Craft Wondrous Item, and Bull's Strength.
A new item exists, the throwing dagger. As you might expect from the name, they are finely balanced for throwing, and have a range increment of 30 feet. However they are not suited for close quarters combat. Melee attacks with a throwing dagger take a -2 penalty. They are otherwise identical to daggers.


Addendum:

Blasphemy (and similar):

Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Evil 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Nonevil creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell must make special Will save (DC = spell’s save DC - creature’s HD + your caster level + 1). or suffer the following ill effects.
Save result Effect
Failed save Dazed
Failed save by 2-5 Weakened, dazed
Failed save by 6-10 Paralyzed, weakened, dazed
Failed save by 11 or more Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed

The effects are cumulative and concurrent.

Dazed

The creature can take no actions for 1 round, though it defends itself normally.
Weakened

The creature’s Strength score decreases by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds.
Paralyzed

The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.
Killed

Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (as above, but at a -4 penalty) to negate.

Iron Heart Surge:

Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3.
Prequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver.
Initiation Action: 1 standard action or 1 immediate action, see text
Range: Personal.
Target: You.
Duration: Instantaneous.

WEEABOO!!! ...Fightan' Magick!

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies.

When you use this maneuver as a Standard action, choose one of the following conditions currently in effect on you:

Blinded, Dazzled, Deafened, Exhausted, Fatigued, Immobilized, Shaken, Sickened.

Blinded improves to Dazzled, Exhausted improves to Fatigued, and any other condition on this list ends immediately. The duration of the Dazzled or Fatigued conditions in this case remains the same as whatever effect inflicted them, though you can use Iron Heart Surge again to remove them entirely. Further, if the effect that caused one of these conditions is a persistent area effect, that effect cannot reinflict the same condition on you provided that you leave it as a single Move action on your next turn. You otherwise have no protection against being debilitated again in the same way, or a different way or even by the same effect. And yes, that does mean Drow and Orc Warblades can still Iron Heart Surge the sun... at which point they stop being dazzled, and don't get dazzled by the sun again if they go inside immediately. If not, they get dazzled again. And if someone cases Flare on them, they still get dazzled. And that's it. :P

When you use this maneuver as an Immediate action, choose one of the following conditions about to be inflicted upon you:

Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Fascinated, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralyzed, Stunned.

Frightened or Panicked improves to Shaken, Nauseated improves to Sickened, and any other condition on this list ends immediately. The duration of the Shaken or Sickened conditions in this case remains the same as whatever effect inflicted them, though you can use Iron Heart Surge again to remove them entirely. Further, if the effect that caused one of these conditions is a persistent area effect, that effect cannot reinflict the same condition on you provided that you leave it as a single Move action on your next turn. You otherwise have no protection against being debilitated again in the same way, or a different way or even by the same effect.

If you use Iron Heart Surge in this way, you do not get a Standard action on your next turn. You still get a Move action, and free actions, can still make Attacks of Opportunity, and attackers are at no special advantage against you as a result of using Iron Heart Surge.

You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

AureliusDuPrix
2011-09-15, 02:55 PM
I am really not sure of the rationale of any of this. To me, as a DM and player since AD&D, it seems like your PCs have it laid out for them with these house rules, they don't really have to do anything too deep or out of the box to make their character optimized. I realize that house rulings are fun, and give a unique feel to every DM's game, but only a few are necessary. It's alot easier to scrutinize the content and ideas that players want and make adjustments to those as they come up, but it's not really necessary or prectical to have this many additions/modifications to the existing rulesets. Just my two silvers.

Elitarismo
2011-09-15, 03:37 PM
I am really not sure of the rationale of any of this. To me, as a DM and player since AD&D, it seems like your PCs have it laid out for them with these house rules, they don't really have to do anything too deep or out of the box to make their character optimized. I realize that house rulings are fun, and give a unique feel to every DM's game, but only a few are necessary. It's alot easier to scrutinize the content and ideas that players want and make adjustments to those as they come up, but it's not really necessary or prectical to have this many additions/modifications to the existing rulesets. Just my two silvers.

The primary goal, which many of the listed houserules work towards is closing the gap between spellcasters and non spellcasters, both by making spellcasters actually fear attack from non magical characters and by making non magical characters not complete pushovers against... anything level appropriate. As said characters are flawed quite extensively, it takes much more than a few houserules to fix them.

The secondary goal is to make more options viable by boosting the non viable ones. Changes such as the crossbow buff, and the various critical hit related things are meant to do this.

Anyone can already make their character optimized without doing anything too deep or out of the box by selecting a tier 1 class, and certain effective spells from the core books. These rules actually reduce this, both because more things can threaten the top tier now and because there are more interesting options that will not screw you over by taking them.

It is also much better to think of these things in advance, and have them laid out in a clear (albeit not concise) manner than to have to make haphazard and poorly thought out decisions that will most likely either make whatever problem you were trying to fix worse or replace it with a worse problem.

DeAnno
2011-09-15, 04:46 PM
Most of this is quite sensible and unlikely to cause problems. One large concern however is...


Mordenkainen's (Game) Disjunction no longer exists. If you want to turn off enemy magic items, use a Chain Dispel. Then you don't destroy your own loot.

MDJ is a critical counter to DMM Persist builds at high levels, because these builds often work to build up extremely high Caster Levels to defeat conventional dispelling. MDJ strips the whole buff stack with no check, forcing them to dedicate resources to counterspelling as well at high levels. I suggest you simply strip MDJ of its item destroying properties, converting it to 1d4 or perhaps 2d4 rounds of suppression.

It amuses me more than anything else that even people who feel the need to buff blasting are afraid of metamagic reducers. With no Incantatrix due to the Faerun banning, if you banned Dweomerkeeper as well that cuts off both the global reductionizers. After that you're left with feats that effect only one metamagic or only one spell, and both of those have high opportunity cost. Also, remember that giving melee a Full Attack with a maneuver as a standard is going to make it much easier to deal large amounts of weapon damage, and that the full hit points per HD on PCs (and presumably some dangerous NPCs) will further devalue hp damage, and last but not least with Celerity gone most casters must find a more difficult or late game way to gain action advantage.

For these reasons I suggest banning Dweomerkeeper but lifting the maximum of one point of meta reduction.

Other spells you may or may not be aware of that give can give casters easy action advantage are Arcane Fusion & the Greater version (Sorc only), and Arcane Spellsurge (Sorc most easily, summoner Wizards too). Psions have even more ways, including Fission, Quickened Synchronicity, Schism, and probably more stuff I forgot or don't know about. In summary, many of these are better than Celerity (Quickened Synch is especially abusive), so if you're serious about banning Celerity for action abuse or immediacy issues you should look into these as well.

Some feats (Combat Brute in particular) require Improved Sunder and have non-Sundering effects. Is this prereq deleted in the same way the skil prereqs are?

I am slightly confused about Full Attacks and maneuvers. Is there a 1/Full attack limit? How does the Warblade get around this and simultaneously recover both maneuvers used?

Elitarismo
2011-09-15, 05:12 PM
Most of this is quite sensible and unlikely to cause problems. One large concern however is...

MDJ is a critical counter to DMM Persist builds at high levels, because these builds often work to build up extremely high Caster Levels to defeat conventional dispelling. MDJ strips the whole buff stack with no check, forcing them to dedicate resources to counterspelling as well at high levels. I suggest you simply strip MDJ of its item destroying properties, converting it to 1d4 or perhaps 2d4 rounds of suppression.

There are also plenty of things that improve caster level for the Dispeller, as well as things that specifically improve Dispel checks. Suffice it to say any DMM Persist build had better be packing some anti Dispel measures. And since the only one that really works is the Spellblade weapon enhancement, located within a FR source... The main reason why DMM Persist, with Nightsticks even was left alone was because of this.


It amuses me more than anything else that even people who feel the need to buff blasting are afraid of metamagic reducers. With no Incantatrix due to the Faerun banning, if you banned Dweomerkeeper as well that cuts off both the global reductionizers. After that you're left with feats that effect only one metamagic or only one spell, and both of those have high opportunity cost. Also, remember that giving melee a Full Attack with a maneuver as a standard is going to make it much easier to deal large amounts of weapon damage, and that the full hit points per HD on PCs (and presumably some dangerous NPCs) will further devalue hp damage, and last but not least with Celerity gone most casters must find a more difficult or late game way to gain action advantage.

That is intentional. By RAW, the only way to make blasting up to par is to stack metamagics and metamagic cost reduction. This was fixed by improving the base blasting spells, but also limiting the ability to stack metamagics so that it doesn't have the unintended effect of boosting those further.

Making melee characters able to actually execute full attack actions was also intentional. No longer can you simply walk briskly away to safety. The maneuver part was added when someone pointed out that the main point of maneuvers was to get something good for a Standard... and if it's use a maneuver or full attack, full attack wins.

Full HP per HD applies to everyone, however it mainly benefits PC characters with large HD. Lower HD characters gain very little from it, and monsters get most of their HP from Constitution and not their HD.

Finally, casters are quite capable of pulling their weight even without Celerity. If not, it is because of user error.


For these reasons I suggest banning Dweomerkeeper but lifting the maximum of one point of meta reduction.

Allowing super metamagic stacks would be counterproductive, and casters do not need a buff. Even if casters are outdamaged by non casters otherwise, that's a good thing. After all, why would anyone play something that does nothing but HP damage when they can play something that does many other things and does more HP damage?


Other spells you may or may not be aware of that give can give casters easy action advantage are Arcane Fusion & the Greater version (Sorc only), and Arcane Spellsurge (Sorc most easily, summoner Wizards too). Psions have even more ways, including Fission, Quickened Synchronicity, Schism, and probably more stuff I forgot or don't know about. In summary, many of these are better than Celerity (Quickened Synch is especially abusive), so if you're serious about banning Celerity for action abuse or immediacy issues you should look into these as well.

The Sorc only ones don't bother me so much, as they somewhat make up for being like Wizards, but weaker. The others I'd have to look into, but Celerity was banned because you can just be immune to Daze and not care. Supernovas don't really bother me as chances are, a much lesser effect would win the current fight, and fight 2 will now destroy you. But I will look into the psionic extra action things.


Some feats (Combat Brute in particular) require Improved Sunder and have non-Sundering effects. Is this prereq deleted in the same way the skil prereqs are?

Yes. Though I do question the value of most of the "tactical" feats as most of them are "do something on round 1, and get some benefit on round 2". Except that it is a 3.5 D&D combat, so 2 rounds constitutes most or all of its duration.


I am slightly confused about Full Attacks and maneuvers. Is there a 1/Full attack limit? How does the Warblade get around this and simultaneously recover both maneuvers used?

It would be easier to illustrate with an example.

A 3rd level Warblade using a Greataxe uses Emerald Razor. He attacks once, as a touch attack for a Standard action as normal. He also presumably PAs for full.

The same Warblade, now at level 6 and still using a Greataxe uses Emerald Razor. He attacks once, as a touch attack for a Standard action, and then attacks again at -5 to hit as a normal attack. He is full attacking, and gaining the benefit of the maneuver on his first attack only.

If he were instead dual wielding, he would attack once with each of his weapons while benefiting from the maneuver, and then get any other attacks he is entitled to after that normally.

If he were using a maneuver that says it works with full attacks, he gains the benefit for the entire thing as normal. And Warblades have a rules text to the effect of "you can use a Swift action followed by a full attack to regain your maneuvers". In this case, using an attack maneuver as part of that full attack doesn't make it not a full attack.

DeAnno
2011-09-15, 05:35 PM
By RAW:


You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers


You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round

So you could recover by initiating a Full Attack, Emerald Razoring on the first hit, using a swift action in between swings, and then finishing your full attack. If that Full Attack was inherently part of a maneuver though, the first quote might dislike you recovering maneuvers during it.

EDIT: With regards to Daze immunity Celerity abuse, the only ways I know to be flat out immune are Mark of the Dauntless, Binding some random Soulmeld to your Soul, and a Paladin 4 spell. Of these MotD is the only practical way (unless you're in gestalt or feel like spamming limited wish). Quick Recovery lets you get out more easily but there are a number of problems including but not limited to natural 1s, low Will Saves, and Force of Personality not working for Will saves vs not mind-affecting things (I figured this out a month or so ago, and should really update my guide since that's mentioned). So basically its Mark of the Dauntless, which costs you a race and two feats, or a bunch of investment and paranoia centering around Quick Recovery. IMO, if you want to spend that much to be able to spam Celerity, it isn't really that bad, but YMMV.

CockroachTeaParty
2011-09-15, 06:23 PM
The crafting time reduction you're giving to Artificers can actually wind up hurting them, since they need to make UMD checks to successfully make items, and each day less they have to craft is one less UMD attempt.

ericgrau
2011-09-15, 06:43 PM
It does seem needlessly complicated. For example Class, Feats, and General could be done about as well with:

Damage sources are increased by 25%
You get twice as many HP

Malimar
2011-09-15, 07:13 PM
Factorums don't exist.

This isn't a house rule. The word is "factotums". Or, if you're in ancient Rome, "factota".

Kaje
2011-09-15, 07:28 PM
Your eldritch blast fix makes me drool.

DeAnno
2011-09-15, 07:38 PM
Your eldritch blast fix makes me drool.

Speaking of that, can you use an Eldritch Glaive to execute melee Martial Maneuvers (and full attack after drool)? It isn't explicit here, but it would make sense.

FearlessGnome
2011-09-15, 07:39 PM
Ironheart Surge would be better named Ironhurt Surge. Because the original is just painfully unworkable. Your house rule works, though with them being a melee class, it probably wouldn't hurt to let them at least get rid of Exhaustion and such without just downgrading the penalty.

Still, anything is better than the insane original.

Curmudgeon
2011-09-15, 08:27 PM
While you claim to intend to promote balance between the classes, you've made Tier 1 characters (Wizards and Artificers) stronger.

Evoker Wizards, Warmages, and Sorcerers who have Evocation spells as at least a third of their total spells known do one additional damage per damage dice. Such characters can also ignore a number of points of energy resistance on their targets equal to their caster level. This must be applied or not applied to all targets within the spell area and can be chosen at the time of casting. If the target does not actually have any energy resistance, this has no effect. This ability requires no action beyond that required to cast the spell and can be used at will.
Since everyone gets Craft feats automatically, and that steals some of the Artificer's thunder a 5th level Artificer can craft items 20% faster. This increases to 40% faster at level 10, 60% faster at level 15, and 80% faster at level 20. This does not stack with any other effects that expedite the crafting process. You must still meet all of the prerequisites for creating the item, including having the money on hand. This only makes the process faster.


You can become proficient with any weapon by training with it for (7 days - your BAB, minimum 1 day) and making an Int check. The DC is 5 for Simple weapons, 10 for Martial weapons, 15 for Exotic weapons. You cannot take 10 on this check. If this check fails you can try again from the beginning, but if it fails by 5 or more you cannot reattempt to learn that weapon until your BAB permanently improves.
You can become proficient with any armor by training with it for (14 days - your BAB + the armor bonus of the armor, minimum 1 day) and making an Int check. The DC is 7 + the armor bonus of the armor. You cannot take 10 on this check. If this check fails you can try again from the beginning, but if it fails by 5 or more you cannot reattempt to learn that armor until your BAB permanently improves. If the armor has other negative effects such as arcane spell failure or violates Druidic oath you still suffer those drawbacks.


Class skills no longer exist. Yes, this means everyone can take Tumble and UMD. Of course since even the best skills aren't that great, and the DCs there are relatively low this doesn't matter.
Anyone who would normally have 2 + Int skills instead has 4 + Int skills. Those that already have 4 or more skill points per level remain unchanged.
Permanent increases to Intelligence provide retroactive skill points. Temporary increases to Intelligence do not grant additional skills.
When using the Use Magic Device skill to emulate caster level, you may not emulate a caster level higher than your own. If you have no caster level, you may not emulate a caster level higher than your hit dice. If your skill check would yield a higher result than your CL or HD, it is instead capped at your CL or HD.

Power Word spells have all HP caps increased by 50%.
There are lots of ways to reduce ASF, down to 0%. Previously it just wasn't worth it for arcane spellcasters to take the proficiency feats or suffer the ACP cost to attack rolls while wearing nonproficient armor. So every Wizard will be harder to kill.

There's no option to emulate a caster level with Use Magic Device, so setting limits on a nonexistent function baffles me.

You're pushing spellcasters to be better blasters, but also making those non-blasty save-or-die/save-or-suck Power Word spells more capable.


While you've made Tier 1 characters stronger, you've made it impossible for Fighters to get all the benefits of Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (requires Fighter level 9 to get to demoralize as a swift action), and given away the few things only Fighters got (Weapon Specialization and so on). You've done nothing but hurt Rogues by giving away things which distinguish that class, and proclaimed a major feature of the class (skills) "doesn't matter". Thanks ever so much. :smallfurious:

Gavinfoxx
2011-09-15, 08:48 PM
Artificer's don't necessarily want to craft faster, due to greater chances of failing UMD checks.

Elitarismo
2011-09-16, 09:43 AM
By RAW:

So you could recover by initiating a Full Attack, Emerald Razoring on the first hit, using a swift action in between swings, and then finishing your full attack. If that Full Attack was inherently part of a maneuver though, the first quote might dislike you recovering maneuvers during it.

Then consider it a change to RAW. Which is what houserules are for.

As for Celerity and similar effects, I will look into those later.


The crafting time reduction you're giving to Artificers can actually wind up hurting them, since they need to make UMD checks to successfully make items, and each day less they have to craft is one less UMD attempt.

Artificers only have a hard time with that at very low levels. At very low levels, they'd only get two checks regardless. One for the one day, and one last chance check. At higher levels, when they both get significant reductions to the time and things take a lot of time they are automatically passing the check, which means they do not need multiple attempts to do so as they only have to pass once to succeed.


It does seem needlessly complicated. For example Class, Feats, and General could be done about as well with:

Damage sources are increased by 25%
You get twice as many HP


No, not even close.


Speaking of that, can you use an Eldritch Glaive to execute melee Martial Maneuvers (and full attack after drool)? It isn't explicit here, but it would make sense.

Sure, why not? I can't see some sort of bizarre Warlock/Martial Adept hybrid being workable though.


Ironheart Surge would be better named Ironhurt Surge. Because the original is just painfully unworkable. Your house rule works, though with them being a melee class, it probably wouldn't hurt to let them at least get rid of Exhaustion and such without just downgrading the penalty.

Still, anything is better than the insane original.

Probably. The idea was to make it work on the things it's supposed to work on without making it broken, or unclear about what it does and does not do. It took quite a long writeup just to spell everything out.

Curmudgeon: Are you serious?

Blaster mages were improved yes. Thing about boosting blaster mages is it doesn't boost mage power at all. 4d6 Scorching Rays or 4d6+4 Scorching Rays, your slots are still better used on Glitterdust. Make it 4d6+12 Scorching Rays (a Warmage with 12 Int) and you're still better off with Glitterdust, but killing it with fire is a valid choice.

Everyone gets craft feats automatically... because they no longer offer a discount. And the only reason to take them was for the discount, which was very good. Instead everyone gets +50% wealth, which means casters get the same wealth, and non casters get more. Artificers were made to craft faster because one of their big things was getting all craft feats, and that no longer matters.

Weapon and armor proficiencies were made much easier to obtain to better reflect their value. After all, the Fighter, one of the weakest classes in the entire game gets all non exotic proficiencies for free for level 1, so if you are expecting those to be valuable you are expecting wrongly. As for an arcane caster using a +1 Mithril Twlight Chain Shirt, they could do that before and they can do it now. The houserules changed absolutely nothing, as it was and still is a 0 ACP 0% ASF item, which means even a non proficient arcane caster suffers absolutely no penalties. They could also simply cast Mage Armor, or better yet Greater Mage Armor so the only reason they would do this is to stack special properties on their armor. Which is something they can both do just as easily with Bracers of Armor, and something they could do just as easily by RAW.

Skills were also adapted to better reflect their value, by fusing similar skills together and giving everyone at least 4 + Int skills. Skills are now borderline worthless past low levels, instead of entirely worthless. That is an improvement. Not a large improvement, but when working with fundamentally flawed concepts there is only so much that can be done. As for Int increasing skill points retroactively, that is more for straightforwardness than anything else as skills, like feats suffer from diminishing returns. The UMD thing is to effectively ban The Wish and the Word by disallowing people to jack up their UMD score, and use a Staff of Blasphemy.

Finally, Power Words were improved because they were terrible. Why would you cast a spell that won't work on anything that isn't 1-2 hits away from being dead, anyways? The only Power Word worth anything was Pain, and that's only because it's the first one, so it comes into play before enemy scaling takes off. Before they were in every way worse to comparable, non PW spells. Now... they still kind of are, but at least have a valid niche for themselves.


While you've made Tier 1 characters stronger, you've made it impossible for Fighters to get all the benefits of Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (requires Fighter level 9 to get to demoralize as a swift action), and given away the few things only Fighters got (Weapon Specialization and so on). You've done nothing but hurt Rogues by giving away things which distinguish that class, and proclaimed a major feature of the class (skills) "doesn't matter". Thanks ever so much.

By Zhentarim Soldier, you mean that thing that got banned anyways? PS: There's better ways to spam demoralize.

Even Fighters never took Weapon Specialization, so it is an entirely moot point.

Skills don't matter. If your character is entirely focused upon skills, that character does not matter. Fortunately, Rogues do more than minor things that largely cease to matter at level 5. Not to mention that by RAW, even Rogues don't get a lot of skills.

Now, let's look at what I have actually done for Rogues:
Skill fusions mean you can actually get a decent number of skills. While they are still minor, they are there.
Dex to attack and damage with any finessable weapon. None of that having to wait until level 3 to halfway do what everyone else can do for free (add their main stat to their attacks).
Two Weapon Fighting automatically scales, meaning that you have to set one feat on fire instead of three feats.
Power Attack is automatically granted, and works with light weapons, so you aren't entirely helpless when you can't sneak attack.
50% more wealth means you can much better ensure you get SAs off, either by making enemies SAable or by bypassing immunities to precision damage.

The only real Rogue nerf in there is that Heavy Fort costs 18k instead of 36k, which means everyone will have it a lot sooner. But given that there are still plenty of ways of bypassing immunity, that's not a big deal.

NoldorForce
2011-09-16, 11:06 AM
This generally looks reasonable. I'd be wary of playing a game with it, but only because it's a large list of houserules. (Multiply that by ten and you get my issues with Pathfinder.)

-Factorums already don't exist. The correct spelling is Factotum.
-Two-Weapon Parry seems a bit...goofy. (Then again, most parry mechanics in D&D have been similarly weird and out-of-place, like the grapple rules.)
-Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot refer back to the feats section. No mention is made of them there.
-By default, energy resistance is already calculated per attack rather than per round. What you're thinking of is an artifact of 3.0.
-Did you wish to implement anything to improve saving throws? You've certainly improved AC, but you haven't removed save-or-die effects; even with pure damage being better these will often obviate other options.
-You've altered the line of Cure spells; did you wish to also alter the Inflict line?

Elitarismo
2011-09-16, 11:55 AM
This generally looks reasonable. I'd be wary of playing a game with it, but only because it's a large list of houserules. (Multiply that by ten and you get my issues with Pathfinder.)

Pathfinder is the exact opposite of these houserules, as it aims to widen the gap between casters and non casters, severely imbalance the game, and create as few valid options as possible. They also work by stealth editing otherwise identical blocks of test instead of telling you what was changed in a straightforward manner.


-Factorums already don't exist. The correct spelling is Factotum.

The class is too stupid to spell correctly.


-Two-Weapon Parry seems a bit...goofy. (Then again, most parry mechanics in D&D have been similarly weird and out-of-place, like the grapple rules.)

I was out of ideas, but wanted to give them something to make them different from THF aside from being worse.


-Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot refer back to the feats section. No mention is made of them there.

Those got listed in the general section for some reason.


-By default, energy resistance is already calculated per attack rather than per round. What you're thinking of is an artifact of 3.0.

Actually, energy resistance from race applies once per round. Just any other source applies once per attack. I made it so that said racial energy resistance was not strictly inferior to a basic spell.


-Did you wish to implement anything to improve saving throws? You've certainly improved AC, but you haven't removed save-or-die effects; even with pure damage being better these will often obviate other options.

This is where the assumption that everyone knows what they're doing comes in. I consider it a given that just about everyone will pack a level appropriate Potion of Conviction to boost their saves, will cast Greater/Superior Resistance if able, will most likely take Steadfast Determination if a martial character... With those in effect, enemies end up being relatively safe against the all important and dangerous spells. For example, a random level 7 martial enemy without buffs: 17/5/11. He's not going to get shredded by spells (few Reflex save spells do anything but damage). At least not on the first try.


-You've altered the line of Cure spells; did you wish to also alter the Inflict line?

That qualifies as similar effects (Inflicts heal undead, after all). Against living creatures, Inflict spells are terribly weak and need the buff as well. Things like Heal/Harm/Reconstruct are fine, so those were untouched.

NoldorForce
2011-09-16, 12:16 PM
Actually, energy resistance from race applies once per round. Just any other source applies once per attack. I made it so that said racial energy resistance was not strictly inferior to a basic spell.All energy resistance applies per attack. Yes, the DMG says it's per round, but MM1 (primary source with it being a special ability and all) says it's per attack. (Plus, Rules Compendium also says it's per attack.)

Elitarismo
2011-09-16, 12:30 PM
All energy resistance applies per attack. Yes, the DMG says it's per round, but MM1 (primary source with it being a special ability and all) says it's per attack. (Plus, Rules Compendium also says it's per attack.)

Then consider it as a clarification.

DeAnno
2011-09-16, 12:54 PM
Sure, why not? I can't see some sort of bizarre Warlock/Martial Adept hybrid being workable though.

Sorcerer 1 (w/ Precocious Apprentice)/Warlock 6/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 2/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 8/Warblade +1

(This was whipped up in 20 minutes so is probably not exactly optimal)

Gogo Hellfire Diamond Nightmare Glaive (40d6+10d6+10d6 on full attack)!

It's not great or anything, but it can work.

Elitarismo
2011-09-16, 01:07 PM
60d6 at level 20? It's a bit weak, and that sounds like a late bloomer build, but ok. In any case it doesn't sound like too much to me.

Bovine Colonel
2011-09-17, 03:10 PM
Pathfinder is the exact opposite of these houserules, as it aims to widen the gap between casters and non casters, severely imbalance the game, and create as few valid options as possible.

[citation needed]

Jude_H
2011-09-17, 03:55 PM
There are an awful lot of tweaks here without addressing the fundamental balance problems.

The Cleric's class ability list is still a few thousand pages long; combat classes still have nothing going for them beside their big numbers. The numbers might be a bit bigger, but that wasn't their problem except in low-op games.

Standard action full attacks don't do much for balance (every decent melee character had movement and attacks anyway), but they're liberating; that's nice to see.

Elitarismo
2011-09-17, 04:42 PM
[citation needed]

If you have an alternative explanation for why a system would greatly increase the DCs of save or loses, already the best tactic in the game from the best classes in the game, and beat down non casters, already the weakest classes in the game and stuck with the weakest tactics in the game with the nerf bat, I am listening. However I suspect that you do not have such an alternative explanation, and much like the other people here that have attempted to defend Pathfinder have absolutely no arguments to present.

Whatever the case, this isn't the place for that.


There are an awful lot of tweaks here without addressing the fundamental balance problems.

The Cleric's class ability list is still a few thousand pages long; combat classes still have nothing going for them beside their big numbers. The numbers might be a bit bigger, but that wasn't their problem except in low-op games.

Standard action full attacks don't do much for balance (every decent melee character had movement and attacks anyway), but they're liberating; that's nice to see.

Standard action full attacks means everyone doesn't have to Pounce to stay relevant. It also means you don't have to charge to stay relevant, which is good as there are many things that stop charges that do not stop move and full attack.

Combat classes are still going to largely be one trick ponies. This is unavoidable. Before, they often had no tricks due to feat taxes, items being stretched too thin, and a long list of other reasons so that is an improvement. The goal isn't to make them equal to casters, as that's impossible. The goal is to get them closer. And that does seem to work. How else do you explain Fighters and Rogues slapping around a caster heavy party? There are only two possible explanations, and incompetence can be ruled out because the players involved were not inept.

Keep in mind as well that Standard action full attacks for everyone means everyone. Sure the casters are the best able to tank the enemies anyways, but no longer can they do so by walking briskly away.

DeAnno
2011-09-17, 09:37 PM
Something that just came to mind: The Quickened Synchronicity BS tactic is actually more insane in your game than usual, due to the fact that it lets gishes spam it to full attack twice per round for 5 pp :smallwink:

Hazzardevil
2011-09-18, 04:06 AM
I like most of the fixes here although I think with the classes you should put everything for one particular class together, I'd also like to suggest some more houserules.

Ranger:
Give them Mystic Ranger casting and Pathfinder Combat styles.
Bump up HD to d10
Has animal companion at full progression and it gains feats as a PC would.
Druid:
Has Ranger Animal Companion progression and Wildshape only goes up to Large size.
Fighter

Gain martial study as a bonus feat at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19, at level 20 gain the ability to initiate a maneuver on any attack action.
Gain Martial Stance at level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 and at level 20 you may be in 2 stances at the same time.
You are not restricted by the number of times you can take martial stidy or martial stance.
Paladin:
As you put and:
Your Paladin mount has the full druid animal companion progression and is an intelligent as a wizard familiar of you paladin level. It also gains feats as a PC would.

Elitarismo
2011-09-18, 07:16 AM
Something that just came to mind: The Quickened Synchronicity BS tactic is actually more insane in your game than usual, due to the fact that it lets gishes spam it to full attack twice per round for 5 pp :smallwink:

Which book is that from? Complete Psionic?


Ranger:
Give them Mystic Ranger casting and Pathfinder Combat styles.
Bump up HD to d10
Has animal companion at full progression and it gains feats as a PC would.

Introducing Pathfinder rules is like consuming an energy source larger than your head or turning into a snake. It never helps. I am also not sure where Mystic Ranger is from, though I believe it is some sort of Paizo source. If so, refer to previous comment.

Animal companions also already gain feats with HD advancement.


Druid:
Has Ranger Animal Companion progression and Wildshape only goes up to Large size.

Druid was intentionally left alone, as bringing the lower tiers up to playable levels was enough.


Fighter

Gain martial study as a bonus feat at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19, at level 20 gain the ability to initiate a maneuver on any attack action.
Gain Martial Stance at level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 and at level 20 you may be in 2 stances at the same time.
You are not restricted by the number of times you can take martial stidy or martial stance.

This ignores that the class is only 6 levels long and is just a cheap knock off of the Warblade. That would be pointless.


Paladin:
As you put and:
Your Paladin mount has the full druid animal companion progression and is an intelligent as a wizard familiar of you paladin level. It also gains feats as a PC would.

Mounts already gain feats, and Mounted Combat is something that ceases to matter the moment he gets the ability to do so, so improving something that no longer matters would not help. And if for some reason he does it anyways, it's not going to be his special mount that he is abusing the rules of.

Hazzardevil
2011-09-18, 08:34 AM
Introducing Pathfinder rules is like consuming an energy source larger than your head or turning into a snake. It never helps. I am also not sure where Mystic Ranger is from, though I believe it is some sort of Paizo source. If so, refer to previous comment.
All I was suggesting you just get given a huge pile of feats, feats always help.
Animal companions also already gain feats with HD advancement.
I was confusing familiars with companions there.


Druid was intentionally left alone, as bringing the lower tiers up to playable levels was enough.
I won't get into an argument over this with you, it won't make any difference.


This ignores that the class is only 6 levels long and is just a cheap knock off of the Warblade. That would be pointless.
It makes fighter dips more attractive to swordsages and warblades, that's a win in my book.
Forgot about the 6 level restriction.


Mounted Combat is something that ceases to matter the moment he gets the ability to do so, so improving something that no longer matters would not help. And if for some reason he does it anyways, it's not going to be his special mount that he is abusing the rules of.
Paladins need all the help they can get.
Comments have italics.

Elitarismo
2011-09-18, 09:40 AM
Not a single word in that is italicized.

Hazzardevil
2011-09-18, 10:00 AM
Not a single word in that is italicized.

I did italics my comments, I've underlined them as well now.

Elitarismo
2011-09-18, 10:25 AM
I did italics my comments, I've underlined them as well now.

Italics do not work in quotes. Your quote is currently italicized, yet does not show. Underlining does work though.

More feats do not always help. More feats only help if there are more quality feats to take. That's the keyword. Quality. It trumps quantity any day of the week and twice on Sundays. If I did do anything to bulk up Ranger, it would be enhancing the rate at which new Favored Enemies are acquired, so that they aren't so narrow. However before that I'd have to see at least one skilled player banging on them by seeing how Rangers hold up with what they have now, namely a Druid animal companion, both dual wielding and archery, and various things that make dual wielding actually useful among other things.

Swordsages and Warblades are among the few classes in the game both worth taking 1-20, and that can be multiclassed and PRCed effectively. They don't need any help to be more multiclass friendly, and trying would detract from the fact they're among the few balanced classes in the game. The only reason the Fighter is still a PC class is because it's a random feat dip for martial characters, and because of Dungeon Crasher. Those are the only reasons. Otherwise it'd go straight to NPC land, where the random mooks are Fighters and those who have distinguished themselves are Warblades.

Anarchy_Kanya
2011-09-18, 10:37 AM
More feats do not always help.
Sure they do. More is always better.

{Scrubbed}

DeAnno
2011-09-18, 10:38 AM
Which book is that from? Complete Psionic?

Synchronicity is a 1st level power in Races of Destiny that lets you ready an action (which does not require a trigger) when it's manifested. So if you quicken it (5 7 PP total), you can spend a swift action to ready to do X (where X is standard) and just decide to do it right at the end of your turn.

EDIT: We're both wrong, Quicken is 6 in Psionics (silly Psionics and its weird Metamagic costings).

Shadow Lord
2011-09-18, 10:49 AM
{Scrubbed}

Elitarismo
2011-09-18, 10:49 AM
Synchronicity is a 1st level power in Races of Destiny that lets you ready an action (which does not require a trigger) when it's manifested. So if you quicken it (5 PP total), you can spend a swift action to ready to do X (where X is standard) and just decide to do it right at the end of your turn.

I believe that Quicken is +8 PP. I do see your point though, and that will definitely make the ban list.

Kaje
2011-09-18, 05:55 PM
Question: Are iterative attacks with eldritch blast considered the same use of the blast, or different uses? If they are considered different uses, hellfire warlocks are screwed. So just wondering.

Elitarismo
2011-09-18, 05:57 PM
Question: Are iterative attacks with eldritch blast considered the same use of the blast, or different uses? If they are considered different uses, hellfire warlocks are screwed. So just wondering.

Screwed in what way? And if the answer is by taking 1 Con damage per shot, are you trying to tell me there are Warlocks who do not use the Strongheart Vest or bind Naberious(?)

Shadow Lord
2011-09-18, 06:03 PM
{Scrubbed}

Kaje
2011-09-18, 06:58 PM
Screwed in what way? And if the answer is by taking 1 Con damage per shot, are you trying to tell me there are Warlocks who do not use the Strongheart Vest or bind Naberious(?)

Assuming we use Naberius, the HFW would be down 3 points of CON instead of just the one they'd heal right away. They wouldn't be able to just spam it every round, since after just a few rounds they'd be dead.

Of course, this is not a problem with Strongheart Vest, but apparently tons of people think that's cheating anyway.

Elitarismo
2011-09-19, 07:59 AM
Assuming we use Naberius, the HFW would be down 3 points of CON instead of just the one they'd heal right away. They wouldn't be able to just spam it every round, since after just a few rounds they'd be dead.

Of course, this is not a problem with Strongheart Vest, but apparently tons of people think that's cheating anyway.

Well Strongheart Vests still work. The solution to people that think a Warlock will break the game is to make a core only Druid and begin the reeducation process. With tornados and lightning. After all, there is a name for characters that do about ~50 damage a hit at level 20. It is called Average Level 20 Character.

Though that does remind me. As someone pointed out somewhere else, Eldritch Blast meets the criteria for a blasting spell, even though I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote it. Assuming it isn't using an essence that turns it into a save or lose of course. But going from 50 to 65 simply boosts them from average to respectable, so that's fine.

Tyndmyr
2011-09-19, 12:50 PM
This seems...unnecessarily complicated. I didn't critique the entire thing, but here's a few bits.



Warmage Edge has its bonus cut in half, but it applies to each die. Minimum 1 point per die. Thus an 18 Int Warmage does an additional 2 damage per die. This ability, unlike the others is capped at your Warmage level, even if your caster level is higher for any reason. Thus a CL 20th Warmage who only actually has 15 levels of Warmage only applies the bonus to 15 dice. PRC levels that advance Warmage spellcasting count as Warmage levels for this purpose. Caster level boosts do not.

They're primarily cha. You've just turned int into a dump stat for them. Since this is the case, you could rewrite it much shorter as +1 damage per die.


Since everyone gets Craft feats automatically, and that steals some of the Artificer's thunder a 5th level Artificer can craft items 20% faster. This increases to 40% faster at level 10, 60% faster at level 15, and 80% faster at level 20. This does not stack with any other effects that expedite the crafting process. You must still meet all of the prerequisites for creating the item, including having the money on hand. This only makes the process faster.

I would argue that Artificer is the single most broken base class in the game. I would not worry about their thunder being stolen.

Elitarismo
2011-09-19, 12:57 PM
This seems...unnecessarily complicated. I didn't critique the entire thing, but here's a few bits.



They're primarily cha. You've just turned int into a dump stat for them. Since this is the case, you could rewrite it much shorter as +1 damage per die.

How is it a dumpstat? Are you saying that (Int bonus) flat damage is better than (Int bonus/2) per die damage? Yes, it's unlikely they'll put higher than a 12 there, but that was true anyways. Difference is you can get Int +6 items lategame and get something out of it... and Warmage Edge is actually providing a significant bonus.


I would argue that Artificer is the single most broken base class in the game. I would not worry about their thunder being stolen.

True. Even so, their defining feature is their ability to get all craft feats, and to have that matter. Since craft feats no longer give a discount, and because they no longer give a discount all casters get them all automatically it isn't their defining trait anymore. So instead they get faster crafts. A minor ability in the grand scheme of things, particularly with all the ways of bypassing time as an element entirely or at least making it not your time being used (Dedicated Wright). They come out a bit weaker over all, but as you correctly pointed out they'll be fine.

You're welcome to go over the entire thing if you want. It's long, but ultimately the problems it aims to fix aren't simple so it has to be. I am entirely fine with constructive criticism after all.

Tyndmyr
2011-09-19, 01:18 PM
How is it a dumpstat? Are you saying that (Int bonus) flat damage is better than (Int bonus/2) per die damage? Yes, it's unlikely they'll put higher than a 12 there, but that was true anyways. Difference is you can get Int +6 items lategame and get something out of it... and Warmage Edge is actually providing a significant bonus.

Not saying it's better, but since you're going to turn warmage edge into effectively a flat bonus for 90%+ of the time, you might as well just shorten the rules into that.


True. Even so, their defining feature is their ability to get all craft feats, and to have that matter. Since craft feats no longer give a discount, and because they no longer give a discount all casters get them all automatically it isn't their defining trait anymore. So instead they get faster crafts. A minor ability in the grand scheme of things, particularly with all the ways of bypassing time as an element entirely or at least making it not your time being used (Dedicated Wright). They come out a bit weaker over all, but as you correctly pointed out they'll be fine.

I like terseness, and a lack of rules that don't affect anything significant. They remain quite good at crafting, and quite powerful...if, as is likely, the time thing won't matter much, you can just dump it. They'll still be quite excellent choices as crafters. If I haven't missed it, they can still melt things down to craft into other things, yes? If anything, I would point out that as a defining crafting advantage.

Elitarismo
2011-09-19, 01:26 PM
Not saying it's better, but since you're going to turn warmage edge into effectively a flat bonus for 90%+ of the time, you might as well just shorten the rules into that.

Suppose I could, but even a 14 Int + Fox's Cunning or +4 item brings it to the next tier. That and you never know when someone will use them to make some gestalt thing with higher stats.


I like terseness, and a lack of rules that don't affect anything significant. They remain quite good at crafting, and quite powerful...if, as is likely, the time thing won't matter much, you can just dump it. They'll still be quite excellent choices as crafters. If I haven't missed it, they can still melt things down to craft into other things, yes? If anything, I would point out that as a defining crafting advantage.

It was just something minor added as a near afterthought. Yes, they can still eat items for the crafting fuel, but that also takes a bit longer than just crafting something. But when you say that you like terseness and a lack of ruels that don't affect anything significant is that meant to be a continuation of the Warmage thing, general praise, or general criticism? And if the second or particularly the third, what parts of it are you referring to?

Tyndmyr
2011-09-19, 01:32 PM
It's a stylistic choice. The shorter the houserules, the more readable and understandable they are. Now, this may not be a big thing if the only people that use them is your group, and you rarely get new people, but otherwise, having them be fairly quick and easy to grok is definitely a plus.

Elitarismo
2011-09-19, 01:42 PM
It's a stylistic choice. The shorter the houserules, the more readable and understandable they are. Now, this may not be a big thing if the only people that use them is your group, and you rarely get new people, but otherwise, having them be fairly quick and easy to grok is definitely a plus.

True. Unfortunately there was no way around it as both fixing the class balance problems and boosting up non viable options to viable levels takes up a lot of space. Especially the latter, because there's so many of them. Every weapon that isn't a two handed melee weapon for starters. Some things are in there strictly to protect inexperienced players from themselves. The removal of anything that destroys equipment and the various buffs relating to critical hits being the biggest examples.

They're used by any games that I and several other people run and are open to being used by anyone that wants to have a more balanced gaming experience. That's why they're being posted openly after all. Of course there's a warning there about them being balanced against each other and cherrypicking leading to a worse balance situation than plain RAW, but if they ignore the proverbial sign saying that great wyrms be here, it's not my fault if they become a proverbial Dwaggy Snack. And by that I mean if they ignore the warning and do it piecemeal anyways, it's not my fault if they break their game.

drakir_nosslin
2011-09-19, 03:03 PM
Not many artificer PC:s actually do their own crafting most of the time, as soon as they get their own Wright they just do the checks. To me the decrease in crafting time feels unneeded.

Elitarismo
2011-09-19, 03:04 PM
Not many artificer PC:s actually do their own crafting most of the time, as soon as they get their own Wright they just do the checks. To me the decrease in crafting time feels unneeded.

Wrights use your abilities. That includes faster crafting.