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kailin
2006-04-27, 03:13 AM
I was wondering, since a fair number of people here like statting things up and talking about BBEG's, what's the best movie baddie to drop into a D&D session? Something that hits the table and fills players with amazement and terror?

I had some contenders, but they raised too many unanswered questions--Does Skeletor's lightning do Vile damage? Is the Predators' invisibility field Extraordinary, Natural, or Supernatural? Is the T800 really all that lawful? Snakes on a Plane: Swarm, Mob, or Area effect?

However, I have a clear winner with this dude (http://xenafan.com/movies/ghostbusters/crowd.jpg). Treasure: 50x (all in candy).

Reltzik
2006-04-27, 03:30 AM
Bah. True evil is not about world-shattering power or looking cool. It's about making everyone, everywhere, helplessly suffer at your hands, and being hated in return.

That's why the true force of evil in my campaigns, which all of my players come to utterly LOATHE, is the Demon Murphey.

axraelshelm
2006-04-27, 04:02 AM
the hardest evil to confront are those evils that break no laws but gets away with it like scooge from a christmas carol, evil and cold but he never broke a law he was shrude a miser these character villians are the hardest to deal with because killing is not the answer and if resort to violence they are in their right to hunt you down. devils are harder than demons because they a lawyers of the planes they know every rule in the book and they have a big book Asmodious to me is alot more scary than any demon lord.

Necomancer
2006-04-27, 04:16 AM
I once made a legendary monster poison dusk lizard folk. He basicly could climb anything, had acid blood and was sneaky and agile. Thats right. I made Alien.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-04-27, 06:51 AM
Danny DeVito as Minime. Dur.

(I actually pulled that in a campaign once. Psychotic epic-level halfling with a modern weapon. ;D)

RedMage
2006-04-27, 08:20 AM
Darth Vader is just awesome

Nema_Fakei
2006-04-27, 08:31 AM
Any BBEG should have at least one trick that the players won't expect. For newer players, you can pick from the MM. For veteran players, add something that bends the rules a little. Not unbalanced, just enough to throw them off guard. There's not much worse than an enemy who can perform 5 actions in a round. Scare them with an aura of cold that does ability damage, or a halfling with some item granting invisibility at will.

John_D
2006-04-27, 08:37 AM
On the subject of Star Wars, ever since Revenge of the Sith came out and General Greivous was revealed as a complete wuss as opposed to the hell-demon of pure evil that Clone Wars had made me expect, I've been toying with the idea of a half-golem thri-kreen.

NEO|Phyte
2006-04-27, 08:46 AM
On the subject of Star Wars, ever since Revenge of the Sith came out and General Greivous was revealed as a complete wuss as opposed to the hell-demon of pure evil that Clone Wars had made me expect, I've been toying with the idea of a half-golem thri-kreen.
shell out all your cash on Brilliant Energy swords?

John_D
2006-04-27, 08:51 AM
Sounds like a plan to me...

I just looked up the various racial mods, by the way, and an iron half-golem thri-kreen would get +14 str, +2 dex, -8 int, +4 con (if he passes the will save), +2 wis and -10 cha. Mother.

May have to be tweaked a bit for Greivous, as he's supposed to be a pretty cunning warrior. On the other hand, he jumps like a demon. Of jumping!

Seffbasilisk
2006-04-27, 09:00 AM
Mime Bard.

TBPBenni
2006-04-27, 09:00 AM
These are all just my opinions, based on what I would absolutely hate to see on the other end of the gaming table.

Worst literary villain(s) goes to Sang-Drax and his dragonsnake brethren from Death's Gate. Nothing like goading six entire planes and five races apiece into warring with another, just to feed off the hate that it brings. Also that shapeshifting thing is always a plus. Runner up goes to Ender Wiggin from Ender's Game, who while not actually a villain, pretty much makes me quiver in my boots.

Worst 1980's cartoon villain goes to Megatron from G1 Transformers. It took Megatron apx 7 episodes to transport Cybertron to earth, and use its gravitational field as a weapon to get the heroes to surrender unconditionally. That's seven hours of work to conquer a planet. I don't actually remember how the Autobots got out of that one, but I totally call hax. Also he is a giant evil robot and sounds exactly like I imagine Satan to sound.

Worst modern cartoon villain goes to Slade from Teen Titans. Has some very clear, obvious goals, far more hidden ones, absurd physical powers, funding like mad, ninja minions, and he's so bad ass he only needs one eye. I think that later on he even gets demonic backing. The main problem he brings to the table, though, is that he's thought of everything. Everything you do, he's planned for. Even when you literally give it everything you had, it ended up being nothing more than an elaborate ruse strapped to a bomb. I think I'd rather have my character shot than fight somebody as in-control as that.

Worst TV villain goes to... uh... I dunno. I can't think of any super-effective TV villains. The pre-Voyager Borg mebbe. I'd hate to be staring those guys down, for serious. As if it isn't enough to be fighting a life form that spans an entire giant spacegoing D6, it's going to take all your cool abilities when you die, and share them with the rest of the cube. "Oh no, now ALL of them have Shock Trooper/Leap Attack!"

Worst Video Game villain goes to Exdeath from FFV. Where most villains are content to burn a few commoners and stab a defenseless healer in the back, Exdeath sucks 1d6 villages into nothingness whenever he feels like being a jerk. Also, like runner up Golbez from FFIV, compared to your characters, he is a 60 feet tall armored monstrosity. That's intimidating.

Of course, they all pale in comparison to Nega-Jesus.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-04-27, 09:23 AM
The first that came to my mind was Skeletor.

Not cartoon Skeletor, but live-action movie Frank Langella Skeletor.

He's just so wonderfully wrapped up in his selfish, greedy, evil.

Of course, I've always had a thing for a character with a great defining moment:

Evil Lynn: After all this time, Greyskull is ours.
Skeletor: NO! (beat) Mine.

I really don't know what it is about that scene, but it's one of my favorite defining the character moments ever.

And, that lightning... can only be healed by the Sorceress, right? Sounds like Vile damage to me.

Preadator's invisibility field? It's technology, so Extraordinary.

T-800? Only follows programming, and follows it to a T. Maybe there's an argument for True Neutral, since it doesn't really think about the reason for its blind obedience.

Most of the snakes should be small enough to be a swarm. Mobs are for larger creatures, and Areas of Effect are for spells and supernatural abilities, not creatures.

;D

Ellerain
2006-04-27, 09:23 AM
Well... Angel girl from "Constantine" ("And you can be SO noble!"), Umbrella Field Operation Executive from "RE2" ("The Nemesis. Is. Now. Fully. Activated.") are both cool BEGs and are capable of working together.

Ever considered Headless Horseman from "Sleepy Hollow"?
Unnamed Horror from "House on Haunted Hill"?
Golgofian Sh*t-Demon-thingie from "Dogma"?

Modified to avoid spoon-effect. ("spoon-Demon-thingie"? Brrr)

Truwar
2006-04-27, 09:46 AM
Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate 2, NEVER have I hated a villain more or taken greater satisfaction in eventually defeating him. *Now THAT is a BBEG!

bosssmiley
2006-04-27, 09:58 AM
The baddest BBEG EVAR?

Sci-fi: Darth Vader
Horror: Great Cthulhu
Fantasy: Sauron, Lord of the Rings
literary mythology: Loki's brood
contemporary mythological: Lucifer/Satan (as seen in "Paradise Lost" or "The Omen")

If you can get your BBEG to remind the players of these iconic characters without ripping them off outright (examples: DiceFreak's Asmodeus = good, Stephen Donaldson's Lord Bane = bad) then you're doing well. Easier to scare the characters if the players are scared after all... ;)

Sulecrist
2006-04-27, 10:14 AM
I liked Menardi and Saturos from Golden Sun.

SPOILER

Before they fused, anyway.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-04-27, 10:17 AM
The baddest BBEG EVAR?

Sci-fi: Darth Vader
Horror: Great Cthulhu
Fantasy: Sauron, Lord of the Rings
literary mythology: Loki's brood
contemporary mythological: Lucifer/Satan (as seen in "Paradise Lost" or "The Omen")

If you can get your BBEG to remind the players of these iconic characters without ripping them off outright (examples: DiceFreak's Asmodeus = good, Stephen Donaldson's Lord Bane = bad) then you're doing well. Easier to scare the characters if the players are scared after all... ;)


I thought Melkor was a much nastier BBBEG than Sauron...

bosssmiley
2006-04-27, 10:28 AM
I thought Melkor was a much nastier BBBEG than Sauron...

Sauron doesn't get his butt kicked by a big spider, lullabied into submission by some elf bint, his citadel smashed by one of his own dragons or the Valar themselves coming over to complain about his being a bad neighbour though. Morgoth just has no luck at all. ;)

Barad-Dur > Thangorodrim

Saithis Bladewing
2006-04-27, 10:29 AM
Sauron doesn't get his butt kicked by a big spider, lullabied into submission by some elf bint, his citadel smashed by one of his own dragons or the Valar themselves coming over to complain about his being a bad neighbour though. Morgoth just has no luck at all. ;)

Barad-Dur > Thangorodrim


Morgoth has no luck, but come on...Sauron lost to a freakin' dog! A DOG! HE GOT OWNED BY A DOG!!!

bosssmiley
2006-04-27, 10:32 AM
Morgoth has no luck, but come on...Sauron lost to a freakin' dog! *A DOG! *HE GOT OWNED BY A DOG!!!

Yeah...well...but...erm...at least it was a god's dog. ;D

and then there was the whole embarrassing Hobbit situation. Poor Sauron, he still gets ribbed about that at the BBEG annual social.

Hyrael
2006-04-27, 10:40 AM
Dr. Breen? a 3rd level expert (remember, in the 'real world', everyone is a 1st-2nd level commoner or expert. even freeman himself would be a expert 2, fighter 1) with max ranks in bluff, diplomacy, and Profession (sell-out). He so pissed me off.

HomerHT
2006-04-27, 11:03 AM
I liked Menardi and Saturos from Golden Sun.



I liked them as well when you first meet them, but then Alex comes out and you say, "OMG, I just wet myself."

Scartore
2006-04-27, 11:41 AM
How can anyone have not mentioned the awesomeness of Dr. Doom? It's in his name... DOOM.

Plus even if you capture him and lock him up in prison, he'll find someway to escape.
"Lint! the fools...."

RobbieOC
2006-04-27, 12:09 PM
Our DM used Thanos in a campaign last summer. With the Infinite Gauntlet. I don't really remember what happened, but I think there was a lot of NPC interference... otherwise, there's NO FRIGGIN' WAY!

...Thanos... *shudder* Anyone who can beat the crap out of Silver Surfer is an awesome BBEG.

CatCameBack
2006-04-27, 12:18 PM
Sci Fi: Emperor Palpatine (You faith in your friends is your weakness..)

Modern: Blofels (sp?) (Good Evening, Mr. Bond...)

Horror (and first place overall): Nyarlathotep

Fantasy/DnD: Iuz (came to Prime Material to micromanage, talk about getting 'stuck in'!)

As a side note, nowadays in CoC, all I have to do is have a swarthy looking character grin evilly at some PC and demonstrate knowledge of something he shouldn't know, and the whole party is convinced he's Nyarlathotep. Good for laughs.


EDIT: Almost forgot Col. Kurtz (Marlon Brando) from Apocalypse Now. Chilling.

Sulecrist
2006-04-27, 12:42 PM
I liked them as well when you first meet them, but then Alex comes out and you say, "OMG, I just wet myself."

I wholeheartedly agree. I kept on thinking that he was going to become a good guy (well, I didn't think that he'd be good, but fighting in the same party) because he didn't have a last name (see Console RPG cliche #7).

But then he's the toughest, and the smartest, bad guy of all. He's fawesome.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-04-27, 12:43 PM
Blofels (sp?) (Good Evening, Mr. Bond...)
Blofeld. :)

The_Werebear
2006-04-27, 12:46 PM
Agent Smith, before he cloned himself, is one of my favorites for Sci-Fi.

In Fantasy, I like Aribeth de Tylmarande. Sure, she is a cliche traitor, but she is still awesome.

Also, Xykon rocks.

Maxymiuk
2006-04-27, 01:12 PM
Isair (sp?) and Madae from Icewind Dale 2 make great villains because... well, they actually have a valid reason for doing their thing.

Kreia ifrom KOTOR2 is an excellent manipulator, even though the end of the game was horrible.

For fantasy literature, Martel from David Eddings' Elenium trilogy was one of the best fallen heroes turned BBEG I've seen, even though the author makes the "evil" characters far too easily countered throughout the series.

storybookknight
2006-04-27, 01:39 PM
Kefka was delightfully insane. He broke the world in his madness, torched villages for spite, poisoned the city of Doma... and he had the world's most annoying laugh.

Also, Prince Humperdink and Count Orlaf from the Princess Bride. They made a wonderful pair, they really did.

Seriously though, the biggest, baddest... hmm... I'd least like to fight the pair of assassins from Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman. Unfortunately, I can't remember their names.

Culwch
2006-04-27, 01:49 PM
Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandermar, at your service, for a price.
"Ahh, the Marquis is getting late, isn't he now, Mr. V?"

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-04-27, 02:24 PM
Also, Prince Humperdink and Count Orlaf from the Princess Bride. They made a wonderful pair, they really did.
That's Count Rugen.

Yeah. *They did make a good pair. ;D *<spoiler>And Count Rugen killed Inigo Montoya's father. "Prepare to die."</spoiler>

Mr Croup
2006-04-27, 03:16 PM
Seriously though, the biggest, baddest... hmm... I'd least like to fight the pair of assassins from Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman. Unfortunately, I can't remember their names.

"Croup and Vandemar, the Old Firm. Obstacles obliterated, nuisances eradicated, bothersome limbs removed and tutelary dentistry."

Yep, definitely my favorite villains of all time, I dare say. You know, just in case my screen name was enough of an indicator.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-04-27, 03:17 PM
...my post was devoured. Possibly by Cthulhu. It was going to be the first reply too...

Anyway, a quick recap

Kefka: deliciously insane

SciFi Movies and TV shows:
Emperor Palpatine. An evil politician who can hold his own against some of the best swordfighters in the galaxy and shoot lightning from his fingertips. Yes, please! Stats exist in the Star Wars d20 Core Rulebook
The Operative: While technically a minion, he can be chillingly intimidating in his sheer urbane obsession. Also, wicked awesome with a katana. Samurai/Kensai, possibly /Monk as well.
The Brainspawn: From Futurama. They have long since evolved beyond the need for asses. Flying aberration thingies that have blindsight, but only against things with an intelligence score. Also a hive mind, Feeblemind abilities, and...well watch the show.

wormwood
2006-04-27, 03:28 PM
The antagonist(s) themselves. Think "the Raven" by Poe. The guy's worst fears are his own thoughts and memories.

Dizlag
2006-04-27, 03:29 PM
Jason, from Friday the 13th!

I just used him during this campaign ... changed his name to Nosaj, had my daughter draw a hockey mask with runes (as an enhancement), and made him a regenerating, zombie with a machete (shortsword). =)

It was a 2nd level adventure, but to tweek it up ... make the shortsword a vorpal blade and give me uber-HPs. Hehehe

It was fun and come on ... it's Jason, an unstoppable killing machine!

Dizlag

Nahal
2006-04-27, 03:38 PM
I'm going to agree with Jon Irenicus. Insanely powerful, legitimate motive for his actions (lost his soul, so he wants yours), cunning and intelligent.

Ditto Magneto from the X-men comics/series/games.

In terms of sheer nastiness, BG2 also had Kangaxx...

Cthulhu will always occupy a special place in gamers' hearts, and also in their nightmares.

But the overall winner of biggest, baddest evil guy ever goes to...

Clowns. Any clown. They're evil, they're scary, and they do horrible things to children. Haven't you seen/read Stephen King's It?

Ing
2006-04-27, 03:50 PM
best ever i'd have to say is Iago from Othello

think about it, everyone is convinced he is honest and trusts him compleatly, he's able to use anyone and everyone's strength and weaknesses (both physicly and psycologicly) agianst them. and the reasoning is because he's just CE, he likes to see chaos and destruction and if he can profit from it all the better. he dosn't need to be able to jump over buildings or slay dragons because he can manipulate some poor sap to do that for him. he dosn't need to hire an assasin to kill somone he can convince the poor sap to accidently bring their own doom. that much sociopathic power and manipulation WITHOUT any supernatural powers is frightening...now give him a few ranks as an enchanter or psion and you are truelly screwed. EVERYONE trusts him, he's the monster in our midsts, an embodiment of betrayal...all the best villians play off of his archtype in my opinion. (hey what is Palpatine but Iago with Sith powers?, what is Lucifer but Iago with divine hell powers?)

DM_Joe
2006-04-27, 03:58 PM
Are there no Stargate SG-1 fans?

Anubis? or Apophis?
BBEGs that don't stay dead are the best, because the heroes don't expect them back.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-04-27, 04:16 PM
Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate 2, NEVER have I hated a villain more or taken greater satisfaction in eventually defeating him. Now THAT is a BBEG!


Oh he was bad, so was Sarevok from #1. but in BG2: throne of bhaal sarevok joins you.... and you can download a mod that lets irenicus do so as well. Best of all, these characters don't become any "better" from this, in fact you get to resent them and hate them more


But my favorite would have to be V from the graphic novel, V for Vendetta, he's a villan who is justified in what he is doing.

GungHo
2006-04-27, 04:17 PM
Baron Vladimir Harkkonen. He's one huge mean dude.

Oh, you meant "biggest" as in degree of meanness rather than girth.

Frank (Henry Fonda) in Once Upon a Time in the West. He shot little Timmy McBain just because he heard his name! How cold can you get?

Or, maybe Johnny Cash, who shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

TimeWizard
2006-04-27, 04:26 PM
Im just surprised there's been a total lack of Sephiroth. And Ender was not evil or a villian, he was used. If someone is a villian it's Graff or Chamrajner.

For BBEGE? Krillan, from Xenogears, you have to respect a man who single handedly mutates half the world, raises up an artificial God from an extinct civilization, attains nigh-unstoppale universe destryoing powers, and ultimatley gives them up out of a crazy love philosophy.

Runner up is Nihil, from Nuklear Age Brian Clevinger's book; a being whose domain is complete control of reality, and kills half the worlds population with a single thought "Because this way you won't feel so bad I killed your girlfriend. Chances are she would have died anyway"

Freeman333
2006-04-27, 04:31 PM
I've always had mad respect for Skeletor. Why? Because he called himself evil before it made sense.

Think about it. In D&D, it's reasonable to label one's self evil; evil doesn't mean "bad" or "wrong", simply "willing to harm others to serve one's self".

In our world, no one calls themselves "evil"; in a war, one group of soldiers doesn't run out onto the battlefield yelling "For Truth and Justice!" while the other side yells "For evil and depravity!" Everyone thinks they are good, and the ones who oppose them are evil. (In point of fact, as a kid, this always confused me about Skeletor--why would he call himself evil, when in real life he would call himself good and He-Man evil?)

But what I realized later was, Skeletor doesn't call himself evil because he's failing to grasp the subjective nature of morality; Skeletor calls himself evil because he's such a bad-ass. He labels himself evil before anyone else even gets the chance. That's hard-core.

Also, I'm glad to see the Masters of the Universe movie mentioned. It actually served as inspiration for a recent evil campaign (named, creatively, the EEEEEvil campaign) I DM'd. I thought about that one scene from the movie where Skeletor gathers a group of the most powerful, evillest (most evil?) mercenaries in the universe to serve as his attack squad: Beastman, Blade, some lizardy dude who gets killed by Skeletor himself (natch), and a few others.

That image in mind, I arranged a game where the players all played evil characters with varied backgrounds, who were gathered together at the behest of a medusa sorceress named Queen Venom in order to serve her needs and destroy her enemies. Unfortunately, the party was killed in the second game, after trying to take on an entire army by themselves. But the bad guys always lose anyway, right, so I guess they can't say they didn't see that coming.

Psiwave
2006-04-27, 04:44 PM
thinking back to It....
I was once hurredly constructing a low level dungeon crawl and had a couple of levels to quickly build before the game started, nothing special so i used aa generator program and tossed in some zombies.
It worked ok, but for one thing. some random flavour thrown up by the genorator, which i left in for no real reson, was a doll on a table. it was the only thing in the room, and the pc's (still young and prone to metagaming) were suspicious as to why i should mention it, so one of them took it, fearfully.
a small fear effect was placed on them as they slept that night, and thinking of ideas for nightmares, i used the doll since they had beeen scared of it all day.
the campaign ended some ten years and twenty six levels later spanning two editions all the time the character in question carried this doll and lived in mortal fear of it. everything that went wrong was blamed on it, but they were terrified of abandoning it incase it came after them.

i saw the player in question the other day for the first time in six months. his first words to me....
"please, just tell me, whats with the doll?"

I shudder to think what would have happened if we played cthuhlu

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-04-27, 04:46 PM
But what I realized later was, Skeletor doesn't call himself evil because he's failing to grasp the subjective nature of morality; Skeletor calls himself evil because he's such a bad-ass. *He labels himself evil before anyone else even gets the chance. *That's hard-core.
That's what I'm talking about it!

[quoteI thought about that one scene from the movie where Skeletor gathers a group of the most powerful, evillest (most evil?) mercenaries in the universe to serve as his attack squad: *Beastman, Blade, some lizardy dude who gets killed by Skeletor himself (natch), and a few others.[/quote]
The names you're missing are Saurod (the lizard) and Karg. ;D

Yeah. Karg was a pretty nasty minion, too.

But then Evil-Lyn is so evil that it's part of her name. ;)

Freeman333
2006-04-27, 04:50 PM
Yeah, I knew there were some other guys in there too. Beastman was the only one who existed prior to the movie, so he stuck in my mind.

And, I hate to admit it, it took me years to get the stupid pun with Evil-lyn's name. It makes me wonder: did she choose that name herself, or did her parents actually name her that? It sounds like the sort of thing an angsty goth teenage sorceress might call herself. "Evelyn? Pfaugh! Such is the sobriquet my hated progenitors saddled me with--but I cast it off! From now on, I shall be called Evil-lyn!"

Abd al-Azrad
2006-04-27, 04:54 PM
The Mayor, from Buffy (3rd season). He likes The Family Circus. And, he's such a sweetheart, when he's not invulnerable or a gigantic snake.

I kind of liked The Architect's spiel in Matrix Reloaded. And Smith from part 1 was also quite cool, because Hugo Weaving rules.

Heck, on the subject of Hugo, I'd vote for V. He's technically supposed to be sympathetic, but he's still a villain. He's just a villain working towards a better future. And a villain that everyone loves.

Nyharlathotep also rules. No question there.

No, wait. *SPOILERS*

The best BBEG ever: Ozymandias, from Watchmen. How cool is this: After he goes through the details of his bizarre evil plot with the heroes, like any real villain would, and the heroes are all convinced he's gone crazy, they ask...
Heroes: "When did you think you'd try to pull off this mad scheme?"
Ozymandias: "Did you think I'd tell you my whole plan if you had any chance of stopping it? I did it twenty minutes ago."

And then they have to admit he beat them, and then help him with the rest of his plan. Ozymandias for teh win.

Desidus
2006-04-27, 05:22 PM
thinking back to It....
I was once hurredly constructing a low level dungeon crawl and had a couple of levels to quickly build before the game started, nothing special so i used aa generator program and tossed in some zombies.
It worked ok, but for one thing. some random flavour thrown up by the genorator, which i left in for no real reson, was a doll on a table. it was the only thing in the room, and the pc's (still young and prone to metagaming) were suspicious as to why i should mention it, so one of them took it, fearfully.
a small fear effect was placed on them as they slept that night, and thinking of ideas for nightmares, i used the doll since they had beeen scared of it all day.
the campaign ended some ten years and twenty six levels later spanning two editions all the time the character in question carried this doll and lived in mortal fear of it. everything that went wrong was blamed on it, but they were terrified of abandoning it incase it came after them.

i saw the player in question the other day for the first time in six months. his first words to me....
"please, just tell me, whats with the doll?"

I shudder to think what would have happened if we played cthuhlu


Had an experience like that once, though it didn't last quite so long...

In an evil campaign, the party I was in was invading a village (we were generals for some army, and had quite a few evil minions with us) and, put simply, planned to burn it down as an example to others to simply let us in and not resist. As we entered, a girl ran through the main street (right to left iirc) and each and every ranged PC and NPC opened up on her, and they all missed. After that the PCs followed her into a house, thinking she was a wizard or something else disguised, and found her cowering in a corner. Before we could do anything she yelled "get away from me!" and suddenly we were outside of the village, and very confused. We storm back in, and she yells out "Stop all of this and leave us all alone!" and magically we felt an undying love for the entire village (while in sight of it) and not only left it be, but rebuilt it and left.

As it turns out, the DM had randomly rolled for things on the girl and had managed 4 natural 20s in a row, so he gave her a ring of wishes.

So needless to say when we saw her several campaign years later in a caravan we were about to have our minions ransack, we quickly ran the other direction, and she became our own self-created BBEG.

tape_measure
2006-04-27, 05:31 PM
Someone stated this earlier, but:

Palpatine, in all of hs many forms is my favorite.

he twisted people's will to his bidding, he had the presence that would leave anyone quivering in his wake, and thatcreepy creepy voice.

kailin
2006-04-27, 05:44 PM
*SPOILERS!*


No, wait. *SPOILERS*

The best BBEG ever: Ozymandias, from Watchmen. How cool is this: After he goes through the details of his bizarre evil plot with the heroes, like any real villain would, and the heroes are all convinced he's gone crazy, they ask...
Heroes: "When did you think you'd try to pull off this mad scheme?"
Ozymandias: "Did you think I'd tell you my whole plan if you had any chance of stopping it? I did it twenty minutes ago."

And then they have to admit he beat them, and then help him with the rest of his plan. Ozymandias for teh win.

Ozymandias is King. My favorite thing about him, aside from the fact that he has everything figured out, is that he's just a normal human being who's obsessed with living to the very fullest of his potential.

TBPBenni
2006-04-27, 05:52 PM
Im just surprised there's been a total lack of Sephiroth. And Ender was not evil or a villian, he was used. If someone is a villian it's Graff or Chamrajner.

Oh, I'm not implying that Ender was a villain. Just that I'd rather be shot than face him on the battlefield. Forget about the buggers, I'd rather not meet the fate of anybody who looked at him from the wrong end of the war zone. Namely, getting the hell beat out of them.

And Sephiroth did come up. With the snarky bit about stabbing healers in the back and burning level 1 commoners. =) Although I'd rather not bring up a "this FF villain is cooler" discussion, as the last time I got in a physical fight with the person I was talking with. (I think that it was called a draw after somebody bit the other guy in the head. No names of course, no names...)



Seriously though, the biggest, baddest... hmm... I'd least like to fight the pair of assassins from Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman. Unfortunately, I can't remember their names.

Oh my gawd, I was going to write those guys down. But then I was like, "OH no, nobody will remember THOSE guys..."

Jestir256
2006-04-27, 05:54 PM
Morgoth, who was called Melkor, the enemy (Tolkien). Not only was he evil, he INVENTED it.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-04-27, 06:13 PM
It makes me wonder: *did she choose that name herself, or did her parents actually name her that? *It sounds like the sort of thing an angsty goth teenage sorceress might call herself. *"Evelyn? *Pfaugh! *Such is the sobriquet my hated progenitors saddled me with--but I cast it off! *From now on, I shall be called Evil-lyn!"
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil-Lyn) the first ever origin story invented for Evil-Lyn gave her the birth name Evelyn Powers. And she was from Earth. But no one liked that story, so it was never used except in one storybook.

Magnus_Samma
2006-04-27, 06:16 PM
Just the concept of Lucifer has always struck me as interesting. Someone who's so beautiful and charismatic that you find yourself instantly trusting them, but underneath their skin there's a heartless monster who only wants to devour everything that exists. I've made a valiant attempt to hijack this concept for my campaign world, but I haven't quite managed it yet.

As cool as Sauron is, I honestly can't say that he ever impressed me at all before Peter Jackson brought him to life. In the books all he ever does is cower in Barad-Dur and tell his minions to do stuff. The lack of a strong antagonist almost ruined the books for me.

The Witch-King of Agmar, now... I think my friend said it best. "When he says no man can kill him... he MEANS it." Of course, he got pwned by a hobbit and Tolkein's token femenist, so that takes him down a few pegs.

When it comes to over the top, crazy villainy, I always fall back to anime. If you've seen Tenchi Muyo!, you know what I mean. Kagato is the king of badass. He's completely evil, smart, powerful, and he knows it. Grandpa calls him a coward, but he doesn't care. He takes every possible advantage he can get and uses it. He plays the pipe organ in the way only a true villain can. And he has THE BIGGEST SCARIEST SPACESHIP IN THE WHOLE FREAKIN' UNIVERSE. Of course, ultimately, he gets cut in half when the series' resident deus ex machina comes out of nowhere and taps him with his sword, but instead of whining about it like most villains would do, Kagato just smiles, tells him he did a good job, and quietly fades away.

That takes STYLE, man.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-04-27, 06:20 PM
Morgoth, who was called Melkor, the enemy (Tolkien). Not only was he evil, he STOLE IT FROM MILTON'S VERSION OF SATAN.
Fixed.

Are there no Stargate SG-1 fans?

Anubis? or Apophis?
BBEGs that don't stay dead are the best, because the heroes don't expect them back.
Oh yeah, I forgot RepliCarter when I redid my post. There's just something inherently badass about a pile of superintelligent nanorobots in the form of one of the protagonists...

Anubis and Baal are both cool as well. I also can't wait to see Morena Baccarin as the new BBEOri (http://www.gateworld.net/news/2006/04/morenabaccarinisadria.shtml). While the plot surrounding her does sound severely comic-booky, it's not unexpected.


Also, I managed to forget my favorite video game villain of all time: Revolver Ocelot (alias Shalashaska, alias Adam, alias just plain Ocelot) from the Metal Gear Solid series. Sidekick and betrayer of at least three of the last century's greatest supervillains, and always always loyal to his true mission, despite being a sociopathic lunatic. He's also quite fun to fight, especially in MGS3, and just reeks of style. Also, he has a handlebar moustache.
I even worked our d20 Modern stats for him once, and started on a D&D version as well.

I seem to have a thing for minions over real "BBEGs," really.

kailin
2006-04-27, 06:21 PM
The Witch-King of Agmar, now... I think my friend said it best. "When he says no man can kill him... he MEANS it." Of course, he got pwned by a hobbit and Tolkein's token femenist, so that takes him down a few pegs

Not a huge LotR buff, but I don't think Galadriel would qualify as a token feminist, if only because Tolkien was writing before feminism really existed, and lived in a very conservative university environment where things like women's suffrage movements had relatively little impact.

TBPBenni
2006-04-27, 06:30 PM
I think he's talking about Eowyn. Galadriel had about ten pages in the book, and Arwen even less.

Jestir256
2006-04-27, 06:35 PM
Okay, first off, Morgoth is NOT taken from Milton's satan... he's taken from the same SOURCE as Milton's satan. The mythology surrounding the Fall predates Milton by centuries.

But anyway, they aren't the same. Their motives differ, and the power that they rebelled against is different in nature.

If Sauron is the most evil morgothi minion you can come up with, you might want to check into the Silmarillion. Although not as destructive, the dragon Glaurung was at least as creul and twisted.

Kailin, it was Eowyn that finished of the Morgul Lord (his name probably actually WAS Morgul). But yeah, he's a good pick for evil... although he pales before his master.

Has anybody mentioned Kefka yet? As FF villians go, he's the most sinister... but then I haven't seen all of 8, 9, or 10.

In the Greyhawk pantheon, in my campaigns, Vecna ties with Nerull for the most evil. It's tough to say...

As for literature, check out Iago. He's so evil that he acts that way even when it puts him in danger.

Maxymiuk
2006-04-27, 06:41 PM
Oh, I'm not implying that Ender was a villain. Just that I'd rather be shot than face him on the battlefield. Forget about the buggers, I'd rather not meet the fate of anybody who looked at him from the wrong end of the war zone. Namely, getting the hell beat out of them.


Peter, Ender's brother, was the most villain-like character in the book. He was a genius, he knew what he wanted (world domination), and he started laying and executing the plans for his goal when he was 13 or so.

Actually... If you read the entire series, you find out that Peter was looking to become a benevolent tyrant and the real BBEG was Archimedes, who was very much like Peter in many respects, only much more loco.

Jothki
2006-04-27, 06:43 PM
And Sephiroth did come up. *With the snarky bit about stabbing healers in the back and burning level 1 commoners. *=) *Although I'd rather not bring up a "this FF villain is cooler" discussion, as the last time I got in a physical fight with the person I was talking with. *(I think that it was called a draw after somebody bit the other guy in the head. *No names of course, no names...)

Sephiroth is too pathetic to be a great BBEG. In some ways, he's even worse than some of the recent FF protagonists.

Magnus_Samma
2006-04-27, 06:50 PM
Sephiroth is too pathetic to be a great BBEG. In some ways, he's even worse than some of the recent FF protagonists.

I dunno how you'd call Sephiroth pathetic. Basically the entire game set up how badass the guy was. I mean, when you're chasing him across the continent, and you spent like twenty minutes trying to cross the swamp, getting destroyed by the giant snake, getting a chocobo to get across, and then finding out that Sephiroth was already there and he tore one of those giant snakes inside out... that's pretty damn intimidating. Now, the guy had some psychological problems, sure, but if the worse you can say about him is that discovering his mom was a parasitic alien drove him insane then you're overlooking a pretty big chunk of the plot. All things considered, this guy had a pretty coherent plan:

1. Totally pwn the planet with Meteor
2. Jump into the crater and absorb all the lifestream that flows in
3. Become god

He's at least got a one up on the underpants gnomes, and they're pretty high up on the list...

The J Pizzel
2006-04-27, 06:51 PM
i'm going to second (or i think third) Iago. He was just simply hateful. He could get anyone to trust him. And worst of all, there's never really a motive behind why he is so mean. He just simply says he hates Othello. It never mentions why. Any one know why??

TBPBenni
2006-04-27, 06:58 PM
Peter, Ender's brother, was the most villain-like character in the book. He was a genius, he knew what he wanted (world domination), and he started laying and executing the plans for his goal when he was 13 or so.

Actually... If you read the entire series, you find out that Peter was looking to become a benevolent tyrant and the real BBEG was Archimedes, who was very much like Peter in many respects, only much more loco.

Those crazy Wiggin kids! Always getting into mischief. I totally spaced the Eldest Wiggin, who could pretty much be the epitome of "effective political villain."

On a brief tangent about Ender's Game, I suspect that the bit about the network personae were what got me started in roleplaying in the first place! "Wow," an eight-year-old me thought, "that's so cool! Those guys tricked all those grownups into thinking they were somebody else! I wonder if I could do that some day?.."

Lo and behold, while I'm not exactly taking over the Earth, I do like to think I'm pretty good at the whole "pretending to be somebody else" thing. =)

Nerd-o-rama
2006-04-27, 07:17 PM
Okay, first off, Morgoth is NOT taken from Milton's satan... he's taken from the same SOURCE as Milton's satan. The mythology surrounding the Fall predates Milton by centuries.
Well, true. It's just that I associate that interpretation of the book of Isaiah (which most modern Biblical scholars would tell you is actually apocryphal) with Milton, because he's the one who turned it into a literary epic.

But anyway, they aren't the same. Their motives differ, and the power that they rebelled against is different in nature.
Yeah, agreed. Sorry, I tend to overstate my case for the sake of argument sometimes. Okay, a lot of the time. Still, Melkor does fit into the "Fallen Angel" archetype that, as you said, had been established for a long, long while.

Corvus
2006-04-27, 07:19 PM
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Alma from F.E.A.R. Seriously scary, seriously deranged and not even a nuke can stop her.

That Lanky Bugger
2006-04-27, 07:47 PM
The screamers, from the movie Screamers. Not really big, but definately Bad and Evil. A sci-fi campaign I ran lasted a year based on this concept.

Also, I'll second Kefka and Goblez. Especially Kefka. I mean, come on!

"At least, Kefka, we will become as gods!"

"That's great, Gehstahl. Except replace "me" with "we" and you're good to go!"

*stab* *chuck off a island floating miles in the air*

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-04-27, 07:50 PM
i'm going to second (or i think third) Iago. He was just simply hateful. He could get anyone to trust him. And worst of all, there's never really a motive behind why he is so mean. He just simply says he hates Othello. It never mentions why. Any one know why??

He suspects that Othello is sleeping with his wife

Oh and Maxymiuk, it's Achilles, not Archimedes

John_D
2006-04-27, 08:09 PM
I dunno how you'd call Sephiroth pathetic. Basically the entire game set up how badass the guy was. I mean, when you're chasing him across the continent, and you spent like twenty minutes trying to cross the swamp, getting destroyed by the giant snake, getting a chocobo to get across, and then finding out that Sephiroth was already there and he tore one of those giant snakes inside out... that's pretty damn intimidating. Now, the guy had some psychological problems, sure, but if the worse you can say about him is that discovering his mom was a parasitic alien drove him insane then you're overlooking a pretty big chunk of the plot. All things considered, this guy had a pretty coherent plan:

1. Totally pwn the planet with Meteor
2. Jump into the crater and absorb all the lifestream that flows in
3. Become god

He's at least got a one up on the underpants gnomes, and they're pretty high up on the list...

Congraturation. You've just opened the door for a ton of FF7 obsessives to jump in and tell you that that was actually Jenova assuming Sephiroth's form, and for an equal amount of FF7 obsessives to jump in and counter them.

TimeWizard
2006-04-27, 08:11 PM
The Mayor, from Buffy (3rd season). The best BBEG ever: Ozymandias, from Watchmen. How cool is this: After he goes through the details of his bizarre evil plot with the heroes, like any real villain would, and the heroes are all convinced he's gone crazy, they ask...
Heroes: "When did you think you'd try to pull off this mad scheme?"
Ozymandias: "Did you think I'd tell you my whole plan if you had any chance of stopping it? I did it twenty minutes ago."

And then they have to admit he beat them, and then help him with the rest of his plan. Ozymandias for teh win.

Heroes "when were you planning to do it?"
Ozymandias: " 'do it'? Dan, i'm not a republic serial villian. You think I'd explain my master stroke If there remained the slightest chance of you affecting it's outcome? ... I did it thirty five minuets ago"

Ing
2006-04-27, 08:21 PM
He suspects that Othello is sleeping with his wife

Oh and Maxymiuk, it's Achilles, not Archimedes

actually that's one excuse he gives, there's nothing to prove that, its even hinted to be false (Emilia says she MIGHT commit adultry for a price when asked, if that were true she'd proably have stated that she had commited adultry all ready). he also alternativly states that its because he was passed up for promotion, but even after he gets the job he wants he continues on it. it also dosn't explain his manipulation towards other characters just for the sake of conning and being cruel to them. there is no real reason given, he gives excuses but they're so flimsy even he admits that he just dosn't like Othello...or anyone for that matter, he quickly turns his vengence towards anyone he crosses, his own wife, Casseo, he's willing to betray anyone.

i second the Mayor though...what a guy, nicest bloke ever but would stab your eyes out and eat them in a second if it would gain him power. Mr. Rogers meets Alastor Crowly...very nice touch

i gotta put forth Jasmine from Angel though. had allready conquered a world, plundered its resources and leaving it a dead ball and its inhabitants crazed mindless zealots who were driven to madness and chaos without her prescence, was planning to do that same to Earth, turned anyone she met into a mindless drone, ate people heartlessly, manipulated, killed, and seduced to put her plan in action and of course when all that failed she was willing to just destroy the earth and slaughter everyone(if i can't have it no one can). a real Lovecraftian anti-christ figure.

Sephiroth is a good one too, even if it is really Jenova, its still a character that is bad ass and evil...EEEEEEEEVIL!!!

though he pales in pure preversion to Hojo...preformed experimetns on everyone, had no emotions, no conscience, mutated his own humanity away, killed anyone that could closly be called a loved one...and for no reason other than scientific curiosity...really he's like a hyper mendella... and lets not forget Sephiroth would be nothing without his Father.

I'm also gonna say Hades from Disney, just because their bastardized version of the Myth is closer to D&D than Greek Mythology anyway. had a legion of monsters, comand over the entire netherworld, spell-like abilities up the wazoo (gaseous form, demension door, fireball, flaming hands, teleport, etc). and of course can only be hurt by another god. high charisma and a nice oily personality makes him like a cross between Satan and a car salesman. an expert tactician and manipulator...would make a good BBEG in a campaign. really other than the art he's the redeming factor for the movie.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-04-27, 08:38 PM
actually that's one excuse he gives, there's nothing to prove that, its even hinted to be false (Emilia says she MIGHT commit adultry for a price when asked, if that were true she'd proably have stated that she had commited adultry all ready). he also alternativly states that its because he was passed up for promotion, but even after he gets the job he wants he continues on it. it also dosn't explain his manipulation towards other characters just for the sake of conning and being cruel to them. there is no real reason given, he gives excuses but they're so flimsy even he admits that he just dosn't like Othello...or anyone for that matter, he quickly turns his vengence towards anyone he crosses, his own wife, Casseo, he's willing to betray anyone.



yes it's implied that othello did not, but iago believes he has been cuckholded and thats all that matters. the promotion thing was an other motive. My English teacher theorized that he may have been jealous of Othello for having Desdemona or of Cassio's wife, but this was a while ago so i don't remember that well

Ing
2006-04-27, 09:16 PM
Casseo did not have a wife, the closest he had was a harlot who he teased with marriage proposals. the thing is Iago dosn't need an excuse, i mean why is he so intent on destroying other people who he dosn't even have a reason to hate, such as Casseo or Rodgris. they're part of his plan agiant Ottello but he also shows great malace towards them. he has no real motive...he's just a sociopath... in fact he will go out of his way to find a motive just anything to remotly justify his plot.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-04-27, 09:25 PM
Casseo did not have a wife, the closest he had was a harlot who he teased with marriage proposals. the thing is Iago dosn't need an excuse, i mean why is he so intent on destroying other people who he dosn't even have a reason to hate, such as Casseo or Rodgris. they're part of his plan agiant Ottello but he also shows great malace towards them. he has no real motive...he's just a sociopath... in fact he will go out of his way to find a motive just anything to remotly justify his plot.


In the first scene of the play Iago refers to Cassio as "damned in a fair wife" or something similar (may have been cursed not damned), implying he does in fact have a wife, she is not mentioned again however. My english teacher (when he covered this play) theorized that Shakespeare was notrious for changeing aspects of his play as he wrote and originally cassio was to have a wife, but he later decided against it and that mention of it was retained by accident. He also said it could be that Cassio has a wife, and visits with the harlot when he is on the job so to speak

Ing
2006-04-27, 09:44 PM
yes well its true that the Bard never struck out a line....for better or worse. :-[ . still the point usually is that Iago is more of an anti-life force, an antithesis to Desdamona... he is supposed to be an embodiment of the worst of mankind. his motive if he ever has any is at best a flimsy pretense to give an excuse to voilence.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-04-27, 09:48 PM
yes well its true that the Bard never struck out a line....for better or worse. :-[ . still the point usually is that Iago is more of an anti-life force, an antithesis to Desdamona... he is supposed to be an embodiment of the worst of mankind. his motive if he ever has any is at best a flimsy pretense to give an excuse to voilence.

yeah, there is no denying that he is a very good villain, he does have, at least the pretense of, a motive.

Umael
2006-04-27, 10:00 PM
I know people love Iago, but if we have to look at villains in Shakespeare, my heart is still sold to Richard III. But then, I saw the play when I was something like 11, so I have something of a bias.

And on the subject of evil tyrants, King Longshanks from Braveheart makes a memorable villain. At least honorary mention.

For more historical villains, Genghis Khan is my kind of villain. Or hero. Depends on how I feel. Kudos to Napoleon as well. Now if only there was a good movie, game, or other medium to convey them (note: Hitler is NOT on that list - great at getting political power, but his military tactics were horrible).

Nakaro from Inuyasha is my favorite anime villain. True, I haven't seen that much anime, but tricking Inuyasha and Miko to fight one another, the host of powers at his command, and the fact that he always seems one step ahead... of course, I haven't seen that much of the series (first 25 episodes or so), so I have no clue if he gets better or wusses out.

There have been a number of great villains mentioned already:
• Darth Vader - probably the best of the villains of all time
• Emperor Palpatine - Vader proved to be redeemable. Palpatine was not, and had power and cunning, politically, personally, and with the Force, at his beck and call.
• Kefka - I forget who posted it, but yeah, Kefka is such a better villain to me than any other villain in the Final Fantasy series.
• Agent Smith - only the original movie, of course.
• Sauron - natch.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned these two, both of whom were considered by the American Film Institute to be some of the best villains ever seen on the silver screen (Darth Vader was among them, by the by):
• HAL
• Hannibal Lector

Finally, I have to speak up for one of my personal favorites, a hitherto unmentioned, probably because he is little known - Avshar, the evil, deathless wizard-prince of Yezd. In Harry Turtledove's The Videssos Cycle series, Avshar is the main antagonist in a world much like the late Roman Empire / Byzantium Empire, only with magic (Harry Turtledove is a well-known writer of alternative history). I can't explain it without spoiling the story (and doing a horrible renditon of the story), but the omen about the fifty eyes was beautiful.

(A word of caution to those interested in picking up the series - the style of story depends heavily on the details of daily life, especially for mercenaries. This is not a high fantasy series, with elves and magic every which way.)

soylentplaid
2006-04-27, 11:08 PM
I just got through watching this movie, it's an old one from the early 80s called Scanners.

Darryl Revok from Scanners shows just how psychotic an evil psion BBEG can be. The final battle will give you nightmares.

Gyrfalcon
2006-04-27, 11:48 PM
Congraturation. You've just opened the door for a ton of FF7 obsessives to jump in and tell you that that was actually Jenova assuming Sephiroth's form, and for an equal amount of FF7 obsessives to jump in and counter them.

Er... wow. Never heard that theory before. *shrugs* Given you get to butcher another Jenova form before you take on Sephiroth, I'd tend to call him his own bishie.

Annnyway, for BBEGE, I'm going to throw my support behind Kefka. From acts of mass murder (poisoning Doma, destroying the world) to epic evil (actually rising to a form of godhood and destroying the world), he had it all. And the most annoying laugh EVER.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-04-27, 11:54 PM
I'd probably have to go with Species 8472 from Star Trek. They are just so wonderfully nasty...

Foeofthelance
2006-04-28, 12:00 AM
The Posleen from the John Ringo Aldenaata series (may have misspelled that...). Take a centaur. Make it yellow. Give it a crocodile head. Make it immune to chemical and biological warfare. hand it rail guns, flechette guns, missiles that fire at realativistic speeds, and monstrous ships, which become smaller ships. Multiply by several billion or so, and sick 'em on a planet and watch as they literally eat everything in sight, including their own dead. Make every one in a hundred smarter then Einstein and Hawking's love child, just 'cause you need leaders.

Their idea of dealing with nuclear warfare? Tell people to duck and close their eyes. And don't eat the dead until they cool off.

Also the source of one of my favorite lines: "Blasted humans! Fighting them is like herding cats! And what the hell is a cat!?!"

carebear
2006-04-28, 12:35 AM
Pindleskin, Kerrigan, and mannoroth
oh and barbosa... i love that movie

Abd al-Azrad
2006-04-28, 01:09 AM
Heroes "when were you planning to do it?"
Ozymandias: " 'do it'? Dan, i'm not a republic serial villian. You think I'd explain my master stroke If there remained the slightest chance of you affecting it's outcome? ... I did it thirty five minuets ago"

My apologies, I didn't even take the time to properly quote the best BBEG line ever. That's the one.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-04-28, 01:37 AM
Annnyway, for BBEGE, I'm going to throw my support behind Kefka. From acts of mass murder (poisoning Doma, destroying the world) to epic evil (actually rising to a form of godhood and destroying the world), he had it all. And the most annoying laugh EVER.
Also, "There's SAND on my BOOTS!"

Amotis
2006-04-28, 01:50 AM
See that game in OOC thread, called Evil Epic Fun?
...
yeah... :o


To sum it up, three of us cannot be killed. Period. No matter what.
And two of them are to-be gods, being worshiped by the other players.

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-04-28, 02:14 AM
Pun-Pun.

Can you think of anything more evil?

Blues
2006-04-28, 02:19 AM
Lesse... Kerrigan was a good one. She was always ready to double cross everyone at any time to get what she wanted.

Master Control Program and Sark were great. Simply amazing. I'm rather biased, because that is one of my favorite movies ever. :P


Master Control Program: You're getting brutal, Sark. Brutal and needlessly sadistic.
Sark: Thank you, Master Control.


Edit: Hullo, Hads. :D

Sulecrist
2006-04-28, 02:25 AM
And on the subject of evil tyrants, King Longshanks from Braveheart makes a memorable villain. *At least honorary mention.


He was much more badass in real life. He didn't cower behind lines of mooks, he often led charges personally (usually accompanied by at least one Bishop in full plate, no less). After the Maiden of Norway's potential to rule dwindled away and Alexander III's wife proved to not be pregnant, he basically annexed the entire country by simply MEDIATING the conflict between the Comyns and their rivals.

Longshanks was amazing, and he was one of many historical Scottish figures that Braveheart failed to accurately represent (another being Andrew Moray, without whom Wallace's revolution would have never happened.)

Sorry, I spent a good chunk of my time in college studying history at the Uni in Stirling, Scotland. Everyone hates Braveheart there, and I guess a bit rubbed off on me.

CockroachTeaParty
2006-04-28, 02:29 AM
I'd love to make a stat block for Nemesis from Resident Evil 3. He's so... awesome. I'd have to replace that rocket launcher with, I dunno... I wand of delayed blast fireball? I made an attempt at doing so during a d20 modern campaign, but it just didn't work.

sun_tzu
2006-04-28, 03:04 AM
In anime/manga, I have to mention Gin from Detective Conan/Case Closed. At first we think he's just some criminal...But somehow, he manages to get more and more terrifying with each new appearance. A fantastic shot, ruthless beyond description, so cruel he's willing (more than once) to blast an entire crowd just to get at one person...and so smart almost nothing the hero does works against him. Every time it looks like Shinchi might have an edge against the BBEOrganization, something goes wrong...and more often than not, it's Gin being too smart. Scary guy.

Another type of really bad BBEG is those who are almost always in complete control of the situation. Grand Admiral Thrawn from Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novel (gotta respect someone who can disobey Palpatine's orders to his face three times and still get promotion after promotion. I still maintain that he should have won and conquered the galaxy). Checkmate Warren from "Time of Perils". Hazel Green from "CRFH" (charming lady. Also, evil, manipulative and borderline unstoppable).

Behold_the_Void
2006-04-28, 03:10 AM
I need to bring up the best villain to ever grace the Final Fantasy series.

And while I do enjoy Kefka, it's not him.

The character's name is Dycedarg, and he's from Final Fantasy Tactics. Dycedarg murders his father and manipulates two warring factions, all for his own political gain and power. He's much like Iago in many respects, you never actually see him take to the battlefield, but he still manages to muster a great deal of power. I've always enjoyed BBEGs who are so powerfully charismatic and manipulative that they never have to lift a finger, their careful planning and scores of loyal minions makes absolute hell for their foes.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-04-28, 03:38 AM
Q

Yeah, he's not really a BBEG, but there's no way you're going to be him.
That's how I run the true Fey in my game. You annoy them, they alter space-time so that you've never existed.

Ing
2006-04-28, 03:49 AM
Oooh Q is a good one.

along those lines.

Puck from a midsummer's night dream (technicly more of a LTCG little tricky chaotic guy) but still can unleash butt loads of magic to warp and mess with people...for fun.

Habzial
2006-04-28, 05:37 AM
I think I'll mention a few more BBEG's that may be a tad obscure.

Sci-Fi:

* His Divine Shadow (Tales from a Parallel Universe) may be the Biggest of the science fiction BBEGs. Ruler of the better of the two universes, His Divine Shadow is the god-king of a false religion he's spread across the majority of habitable planets. Heathen planets are bombarded from space with sheets of energy until their crust goes molten. What he actually is would require lengthy discussion, but it's enough to say he wants to wipe out all of humanity (most of which he rules).

* I'd also like to throw out an honorable mention to Mr. Shadow from The Fifth Element. Just a big ball of pure evil and death that feeds on and promotes evil. No motive outside of exterminating all life + single, symbolic weakness = BBEG material

Games:

* Giygas (from EarthBound) is something of a BBEG with a twist. POTENTIAL SPOILER MAYBE He literally became so powerful and evil he inadvertantly destroyed his own mind. He's just a mindless force of evil power attacking the Earth because it's just the kind of thing he does. I'm not sure if that's a spoiler; you really have no concept of Giygas until the last fight in the game outside of knowing his name and that he's the Ultimate Evil.

* Prince Luca Blight (from Suikoden 2) is a particularly nasty BBEG. SPOILERS AHEAD He wages war on the neighboring countries of the Southlands, in part because he doesn't view them as people, and in part because he needs human sacrifices. He assassinates his father for power, allowing him to go from waging a secret war to waging an overt war. However, unlike many militaryesque BBEGs, Luca is actually involved in fighting and is a particularly tough opponent. Even though you take him out halfway through the game, in my opinion it's the hardest fight you have to deal with.

TimB
2006-04-28, 05:42 AM
Darth Vader (before the toy commercials... sorry, prequels).

Failing that, Onyxia. ;)

potatocubed
2006-04-28, 07:13 AM
Has anyone mentioned the Guardian from Ultima 7? Or his incredibly annoying helper, Batlin?

So evil...

Also, for fun: Darth Revan from KOTOR. ;D

TimeWizard
2006-04-28, 11:01 AM
I need to bring up the best villain to ever grace the Final Fantasy series.

And while I do enjoy Kefka, it's not him.

The character's name is Dycedarg, and he's from Final Fantasy Tactics. Dycedarg murders his father and manipulates two warring factions, all for his own political gain and power. He's much like Iago in many respects, you never actually see him take to the battlefield, but he still manages to muster a great deal of power. I've always enjoyed BBEGs who are so powerfully charismatic and manipulative that they never have to lift a finger, their careful planning and scores of loyal minions makes absolute hell for their foes.

I'm going to have to go with Delita for this one. Dycedarg WAS a real powermonger, but Delita counter-schemes him, essentially tricks you guys into fighting Saint Alma, and kills off enough people so that he becomes King.

The Kicker: he was a peasent born to horse breeders, and everyone is completely absorbed by his "peasant to noble king" lie and love him beyond any other ruler ever.

And on side note, Ozymandias: After 'destroying the world to save it' he launches a succesful new marketing campeign for men's cologne playing off the destruction, WHICH HE PLANNED FOR MONTHS. I mean, all villany aside, he's still turning profit off the whole new-world thing.

NEO|Phyte
2006-04-28, 11:11 AM
Has anyone mentioned the Guardian from Ultima 7?

So evil...
"Avatar, you think you have won? Think again! You are unable to leave Britannia whereas I am free to enter other worlds. Hmmm, perhaps your puny Earth shall be my next target. Muahahahahahahaha!"

It's been a while since I've watched the endgame sequence, so I might be off on the quote. I've got his intro monologue perfectly though.

:edit: well poo, I go through all the trouble of getting the ultima7 cheatmode to work with dosbox, and it freezes right when the intro starts
:edit2: did a bit more tweaking, and this time it froze near the end of the outro, so now I've got the front half of my quote corrected

Telok
2006-04-28, 11:37 AM
Ok, here's a couple of nice obscure ones.

Holt Fasner from the Gap series by Stephen R. Donaldson. He's pretty bad but for the most part he's an 'also ran'. The Amnion and The Bill don't even make the list, genetic imperealisim and an illegal shipyard don't qualify as Evil.

Jelerak, a sorcerer from a series of short stories by Roger Zelazny collected into a book called "Dilvish, the Damned". The guy was bad enough that his name was a word of power used to summon demons.

"He is as old as the hills. He was once a white wizard and he fell into dark ways, which makes him paticularly malicious, -you know, they seldom ever change for the better- and he is now accounted one of the three most powerful, possibly the most powerful, of all the wizards of all the kingdoms of all the Earths. He is still alive and very strong, though the story you saw took place centuries ago."

Amotis
2006-04-28, 12:34 PM
Puck from a midsummer's night dream (technicly more of a LTCG little tricky chaotic guy) but still can unleash butt loads of magic to warp and mess with people...for fun.



You're confusing evil with mischivious or fae.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-04-28, 12:37 PM
I think one of my favourites is also Neltharion the Earthwarder of the WarCraft Universe, better known as Deathwing. By the time the WC games come around he's completely insane and not nearly as dangerous anymore...but during the War of the Ancients, he was so cunning and powerful that my god, I'd never, EVER want to face him. Ugh...the manipulation, the raw power!

Ing
2006-04-28, 12:42 PM
I think I'll mention a few more BBEG's that may be a tad obscure.

Sci-Fi:

* His Divine Shadow (Tales from a Parallel Universe) may be the Biggest of the science fiction BBEGs. Ruler of the better of the two universes, His Divine Shadow is the god-king of a false religion he's spread across the majority of habitable planets. Heathen planets are bombarded from space with sheets of energy until their crust goes molten. What he actually is would require lengthy discussion, but it's enough to say he wants to wipe out all of humanity (most of which he rules).

* I'd also like to throw out an honorable mention to Mr. Shadow from The Fifth Element. Just a big ball of pure evil and death that feeds on and promotes evil. No motive outside of exterminating all life + single, symbolic weakness = BBEG material
.

Divine shadow is probably the best of the lesser known BBEGs....too bad he dosn't have enough exposure.

Rasputan from Hellboy. has vast knowledge of forbidden lore, a disire to destroy the world, powerful magics and near immortality. seriously what does it take to kill this guy.

endoperez
2006-04-28, 01:03 PM
From the Gargoyles cartoon series -

David Xanatos, the head of a corporation "bigger than many countries", and a mastermind who can play humans and non-humans like pawns.
I mean, the whole series begins with him first awakening *the heroes, then tricking them to steal him plans robots he believes to be even more powerful. He drives them out from their original home in the first season, causes grief and madness in various ways (although not always permanently) - but in the end, he is just a person, who has power, and cares for little more. He has reasons, plans, wants - and he does what he thinks is worth it, never mind the consequences to others.

The main thing about thing is all the scheming. I mean, traveling to the 10th century to leave himself a gift with which he will establish//has established his fortune, and knowing his sworn enemy must transport him back to the present time - during his own wedding!

The series also has one of the most memorable underlings - Owen Burnett, the most wooden man on the face of the Earth. Testing the effects of a magical cauldron supposedly granting "life as long as the mountain stones" on himself, even while knowing it to be dangerous - and after his fist has been petrtified, he just accepts the disability, working past it for the rest of the series.

That is an interesting series, having both Puck (as a trickster, albeit not harmless) and Iago (although never called so in the series), and borrowing heavily from other Shakespeare's works as well. Macbeth might not be a villain per se, but he is very capable, honourable - and has quite a history.

Muz
2006-04-28, 01:12 PM
So far no one's mentioned Scorpius from Farscape. Perhaps not directly "evil" so much as amoral and determined, but he's terribly calculating and damned near impossible to get rid of.

Plus they make you watch him have sex, which, quite frankly was...oh, how to put this...eeew? :)

guerron
2006-04-28, 01:42 PM
me.

Behold_the_Void
2006-04-28, 01:56 PM
I'm going to have to go with Delita for this one. Dycedarg WAS a real powermonger, but Delita counter-schemes him, essentially tricks you guys into fighting Saint Alma, and kills off enough people so that he becomes King.

The Kicker: he was a peasent born to horse breeders, and everyone is completely absorbed by his "peasant to noble king" lie and love him beyond any other ruler ever.

And on side note, Ozymandias: After 'destroying the world to save it' he launches a succesful new marketing campeign for men's cologne playing off the destruction, WHICH HE PLANNED FOR MONTHS. I mean, all villany aside, he's still turning profit off the whole new-world thing.

That's a very good point about Delita, but I also generally credit Dycedarg for having created Delita, essentially, so he generally wins in my mind, at least.

Delita was definitely one hell of a BBEG though, especially since he's your best friend and you never actually fight him.

Also, Grahf from Xenogears is a pretty damn good BBEG too.

SpoilerWhat better of a BBEG than yourself?

bosssmiley
2006-04-28, 02:00 PM
Has no-one mentioned Kayser Soze from "Usual Suspects" yet? The way he's fearfully described by all the characters in the story makes him seem like a *far* cooler and more evil version of the Mariachi from "Desperado".

Maryring
2006-04-28, 02:31 PM
Serenade from megaman battle network 3.

Seriously, you have to respect someone who can be the unchallenged ruler of all thieves, assasins and other scum of the earth and have that position even when the power is gained from Serenade's love, mercy and respect. And being capable of defeating the strongest being in the universe without breaking a sweat is pretty neat too.

Of course there are a few problems. You see, Serenade...

Isn't BIG. I'd say she is medium sized.
She isn't BAD either. In fact, she is pretty competent.
Not EVIL at all. I would say she is Lawful Good.
And not a GUY, but rather a gal.

Of course we have Erim, the mistress of death who acts like your friend through the entire game, even saves your life several times. You even help her bury a village of dead after one of her allies slaughtered the town. During the fight against her, you only fight because she will revive her allies as long as she lives. Even after you defeat her, she acts honourable. And she is incredibly difficult to defeat.

Thrune
2006-04-28, 02:49 PM
Let's see...
When it comes to Sci-Fi, Grand Admiral Thrawn is first for me. I mean, he's a tactical genius, he can say no to the emporor, and the only reason he lost was because Zahn didn't want a tragedy.
In fantasy, Avshar is first, as someone else said. Avshar not only is physically powerful, but he's a skilled general, a master wizard, and immortal. I mean, he's in all three of the Videssos cycles, and even when he goes down he's clearly more potent then any other wizard who ever lived.

Habzial
2006-04-28, 05:15 PM
So far no one's mentioned Scorpius from Farscape. Perhaps not directly "evil" so much as amoral and determined, but he's terribly calculating and damned near impossible to get rid of.I have no idea how I forgot Scorpius. He was one of the best antagonists ever, both in his true incarnation and as Harvey. I'd say he started as a BBEG, then became a Big Bad Morally-Ambiguous Guy.

Other:

Sho'Nuff, the Shogun of Harlem (The Last Dragon)- Sho'Nuff is one of my favorite BBEG's of all time. Arguably he's not that big outside the scope of the movie. However, in his element he's the meanest... the prettiest... the baddest mofo low down around this town. Sho'Nuff's only motivation is having a reputation as the greatest martial artist in Harlem. Sho'Nuff spends most of the movie comitting crimes to provoke the main character, "Bruce Leroy" Greene into a showdown, because Leroy's reputation rivals his own.

Although he might not be the ideal BBEG for epic campaigns, he makes a great reoccuring BBEG who shows up at the worst possible moment.

kamikasei
2006-04-28, 05:27 PM
I have no idea how I forgot Scorpius. He was one of the best antagonists ever, both in his true incarnation and as Harvey.
"Kill her, John, and then we can have pizza! And margherita shooters!"

;D

Habzial
2006-04-28, 05:28 PM
"Kill her, John, and then we can have pizza! And margherita shooters!"

;DROLFMAO, I was thinking of that line when I wrote it.

Scion_of_Darkness
2006-04-28, 06:05 PM
Strahd or Warduke. Both are Just Plain Awsome.

An awakened city would be hellish too though...

Abd al-Azrad
2006-04-28, 07:51 PM
An awakened city would be hellish too though...

Isn't there a spell that does that? Animate City or something? From what I know, it doesn't actually make a city get up and walk around, but it means whoever you want within the city gets subjected to massive slam attacks from buildings every round, or something nasty like that.

I think it sounds like a great spell, even if it doesn't exist.

Speaking of which, we should start a vote for some of these. I mean, we can just go on throwing out various BBEGs from random movies and shows, but I want to be proven right with Ozymandias.

Delcan
2006-04-28, 09:53 PM
I need to bring up the best villain to ever grace the Final Fantasy series.

And while I do enjoy Kefka, it's not him.

The character's name is Dycedarg, and he's from Final Fantasy Tactics. Dycedarg murders his father and manipulates two warring factions, all for his own political gain and power. He's much like Iago in many respects, you never actually see him take to the battlefield, but he still manages to muster a great deal of power. I've always enjoyed BBEGs who are so powerfully charismatic and manipulative that they never have to lift a finger, their careful planning and scores of loyal minions makes absolute hell for their foes.

Being a Final Fantasy Tactics obsessive, I have to correct you - Dycedarg DOES take to the battlefield, in a sudden brother-against-brothers fight in Igros Castle involving himself, Zalbag, and Ramza. Dycedarg is beaten, but when he drops to his knees, he pulls out the power he sold his soul to - the Zodiac Stone - and manifests himself as Adramelk, the Ghost of Fury and aspect of Lucavi. Which is when the REAL fight starts.

As for FFT villains, Delita is truly the BBEG behind the scenes manipulating himself to the top, but what he lacks is style. Now if you want a really with-it, sadistic bastard of a BBEG from Tactics, you gotta go with the Marquis Elmdor, who manifested Zalera the Angel of Death. Bishounen good looks, bloody, lightning-fast tactics, and two assassin chicks constantly by his side - now there's a good time in a villain.

Delcan
2006-04-28, 10:09 PM
Nyarlathotep of the Cthulhu Mythos gets my vote for one of the biggest baddest evil guys ever. Cthulhu is locked away behind the Elder Seal and can only get out when the stars are right. But Nyarlathotep walks free; he can't be stopped. Insanity and nightmares follow him like a plague, and he takes so many forms, guises, and deceits that it's impossible to see when and where he passes. To him, humanity is a toy.

But I'm gonna have to second Kefka as THE BBEG. Everything he does and everything he is is malice, sadism, and giggling, childlike joy in the suffering of others. He's the sort of person who would make you choose between your spouse and your child, and kill them both, all while laughing uncontrollably, because he really is enjoying every single moment of your pain. He believes that nothing anyone does will ever matter in the world, so he may as well torture you, make you suffer and despair for as long as you live.

Imagine that sort of person in control of the entire world, and that's Kefka. Words fail to describe him. He's a monster.

However, a monster of a different kind comes to mind, the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah of Star Control 2. They used to be semi-good guys, or at least neutral, but that was before they were brutally and painfully enslaved, forced to eradicate the only other species they could call friends, and toyed with on the genetic level. After they managed to overthrow their masters, they decided that they could never allow themselves to be subjugated by another race ever again.

Their solution? Kill every speck of non-Ur-Quan sentient life in the galaxy.

They're not sadistic, they don't take any joy in suffering. In fact, they reassure their victims that at least in their next life, they could be born Ur-Quan. But sometimes the only thing worse than a villain that's malicious is one that's totally, utterly indifferent to you. "Prepare to be annihilated. Perform whatever death rituals are appropriate for your species." Boom.

It's either Kefka or the Kohr-Ah. I can't decide between the two.

Magnus_Samma
2006-04-29, 12:05 AM
And not a GUY, but rather a gal.

Actually, in the original Japanese games, at least, Serenade is very much a guy. *Just fyi.

PedanticTwit
2006-04-29, 03:31 AM
Pyramid Head

Pyramid Head

Pyramid Head

Pyramid Head

Pyramid Head

Pyramid Head

Pyramid Head

Draco_Ignifer
2006-04-29, 04:05 AM
Golbez, clad in darkness. If you haven't beaten Final Fantasy IV, look away now. I'm spoiling the game for you.

Anyway, it's not just that he's impressive, although he is that. Lovely music, excellent battle form, and relatively impressive sprite even on the map. It's that he's utterly and totally successful at what he does. He rules the most powerful country in the world from behind the scenes, crushing kingdom after kingdom to get the crystals. When you meet him in combat, he starts by immediately killing everyone in the party besides the main character with his summoned monster. He then survives his summon being killed, something which even master summoners aren't supposed to be able to live through. And even when you think you've won, he defeats you. And he doesn't just defeat you with one hand tied behind his back... he defeats you AS a hand, literally crawling his way to stealing the crystal you tried to protect. In the end, there's nothing you can do to stop him - he frees his master, who then makes the stupid mistake of releasing him from its service. True, it turns out that in the end he was being influenced by Zemus, but up to that point he's about as impressive as BBEGs can get, and nothing can take that away from him.

Dragonmuncher
2006-05-01, 12:07 PM
Kefka, simply because, he WINS. (SPOILERS for a game that came out like what, 13 years ago?)

He doesn't attempt to conquer/destroy the world- he does it. Most of the torture and suffering he causes- the whole war in the first half of the game- is essentially meaningless, and seems to be just something to do while looking for his REAL goal.

Then, when he finds his real goal- the source of all magic, that keeps the stability of the world- he randomly destabalizes it, just for ****s and giggles, essentially destroying the world. I mean, as far as I can tell, he could have become God-Kefka WITHOUT destroying everything, but what fun would that be?

So not only does he make himself a God, he gets his own cult, giant tower, and a huge, sprawling, nonsensical fortress that looks like a cross between a construction site and a diseased brain. He randomly zaps villages when he gets bored, and he's as tall as a skyscraper.

Go Kefka!

Ikkitosen
2006-05-01, 12:44 PM
Regal, from Hobb's Farseer books. He's petty and controlling and evil. Awesome!

Nahal
2006-05-01, 02:20 PM
I have to rejoin this and second Hannibal Lecter. Like Kefka, he wins. He gets (as in they're married or dating, never specified) the woman who was trying to arrest him for years, and is essentially Lucifer in mortal form.

Vader makes such a good BBEG precisely because he can be redeemed. The prequels may have been a little light on the quality, but seeing Vader's rise and fall made him a much more complete villain. He was the quintessential tragic hero that was manipulated into evil, then at the last fought back. Cliche, perhaps, but then at least Lucas clearly showed how Vader became Vader.

Moriarty, anyone?

TimeWizard
2006-05-01, 03:19 PM
Moriarity: points for class and style, keeping sherlock holmes on his toes takes a lot of work.

Marquis Elmador: Too small a player in the big picture

Graf: oh yes.

I might get some bricks for this, but...
"Moi, the Dark Adonis!" (mid-boss)
If anyone played Disgaea, c'mon what he losses in actual evil and villany he makes up for by being the suavest character ever.

And perhaps M'Lady Aribeth deTylmarande. Can i get that seconded??

The_Werebear
2006-05-01, 05:33 PM
I already put Aribeth up. But definately seconded for her

Anyway, for those who have read Terry Prachett, the Auditors are excellent villians. Shapeless, formless, totally the same, and not even angry with everyone. Just annoyed. Very annoyed. A group that will wipe out all life in the universe for being irregular definately does well on the BBGE scale.

Also, Teatime from the Hogfather is another good one. Completely and utterly insane, and very polite and nice, even as he repeatedly stabs you in the kidney.

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-05-01, 05:39 PM
The good Marquis Elmdor is as low impact a villian as one can get. He was just an obligitory pretty boy foe with an obscure connection to the story for fans to write slash fic about.

Vyers, on the other hand, is more like a recurring pain in he butt as opposed to downright evil. Hell, I'd say he makes a poor villian just based upon thefact that I can easily mimic his voice. :D

Scorpina
2006-05-01, 05:50 PM
I already put Aribeth up. But definately seconded for her

Anyway, for those who have read Terry Prachett, the Auditors are excellent villians. Shapeless, formless, totally the same, and not even angry with everyone. Just annoyed. Very annoyed. A group that will wipe out all life in the universe for being irregular definately does well on the BBGE scale.

Also, Teatime from the Hogfather is another good one. Completely and utterly insane, and very polite and nice, even as he repeatedly stabs you in the kidney.

However, the finest Discworld villain, for my money, has to be Salzella....or Lilith Weatherwax, such a brilliant spin on the 'evil sibling' cliche.

TimeWizard
2006-05-01, 05:57 PM
The good Marquis Elmdor is as low impact a villian as one can get. He was just an obligitory pretty boy foe with an obscure connection to the story for fans to write slash fic about.

Vyers, on the other hand, is more like a recurring pain in he butt as opposed to downright evil. Hell, I'd say he makes a poor villian just based upon thefact that I can easily mimic his voice. *:D

Odd reasoning but then again anyone who played Disgaea said to themselves, at least once in a dark secret corner, "Moi, The Dark Adonis".

Plus, the dude had a great torso. And torsos lead to the dark side.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-01, 05:58 PM
Werebear: oh Om, do I love Pratchett villains. Which reminds me: Vorbis. The kind of man who traps a tortoise on its back just to see how long it takes to die, and then goes off to do the same thing to people with no more thought about the idea. is my kinda villain. Oh, and all that 'reign of terror and horrible dismembering torture' thing.

Mr. Tulip and Mr. Pin are also great -ing badguys. A bit clichι, perhaps, and not terrifically powerful, but it's tough to beat them on personality.

Carcer's a great villain as well; like most of the previously mentioned Pratchett villains, he's utterly insane with id, but just so gosh-darned charming. No moral framework = very scary murdering psychopath.

Salzella's in their just for his death speech.

Lily Weatherwax would be as ironically awesome in a game of D&D as she was in Witches Abroad.

The Queen is always fun. Especially if you can work in as many Shakespeare references as possible.

sun_tzu
2006-05-01, 06:14 PM
In anime/manga, I have to mention Gin from Detective Conan/Case Closed. At first we think he's just some criminal...But somehow, he manages to get more and more terrifying with each new appearance. A fantastic shot, ruthless beyond description, so cruel he's willing (more than once) to blast an entire crowd just to get at one person...and so smart almost nothing the hero does works against him. Every time it looks like Shinchi might have an edge against the BBEOrganization, something goes wrong...and more often than not, it's Gin being too smart. Scary guy.

Another type of really bad BBEG is those who are almost always in complete control of the situation. Grand Admiral Thrawn from Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novel (gotta respect someone who can disobey Palpatine's orders to his face three times and still get promotion after promotion. I still maintain that he should have won and conquered the galaxy). Checkmate Warren from "Time of Perils". Hazel Green from "CRFH" (charming lady. Also, evil, manipulative and borderline unstoppable).
I would like to make an addendum: In the "so smart they always end up on top" category, I've got to mention Nemesis, a.k.a. the Prussian Prince of Automatons (from the City of Heroes game): A steampunk genius who started plotting in the early 19th century, made himself virtually immortal by replacing the various parts of his body with steam-powered machines that work better than modern tech, inspires unlimited loyalty from the thousands of men who serve him (not mention the borderline-invincible automatons), always has several plans in progress, and plays all the heroes and villains like a fiddle. Parrellel-universe versions of him have already conquered their Earth (he's come pretty damn close a few times), he's killed off 70% of a planet's population just so he could use it as an outpost, and he may have masterminded the alien invasion that resulted in the deaths of 80% of the world's superheroes.
And you never know if you've really beaten him, or it's just another trick.
So, yeah. Definitely one of my favorites.

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-05-01, 06:22 PM
One cannot debate the point that abs like his lead to the dark side. Why if I had a buck for every time a nice pair of abs nearly led me astray... :P

Akiosama
2006-05-01, 06:42 PM
Hmmm... Gotta think of some good contributions for this...

Albeido from Xenosaga I. *Gotta be up there with Kefka... more for his sadistic nature than mass murder, but damn, I want to take him down. *(And the scene in question that makes me shiver is NOT in the US Release of Xenosaga I.)

Vinter Raelthorne IV - Iron Kingdoms - May Leto always keep the throne, Morrow bless him. * ;D

Bane - Has to be a place for The Man who Broke the Bat.

Ares - God of War - A most twisted God...

Fu Leng - Legend of the Five Rings - Another twisted God corrupting the world.

Grand Admiral Thrawn - Star Wars: *Heir to the Empire - From a scheming, conniving, commanding BBEG sort of view. (A second vote, I'm noticing.)

Cell - Dragon Ball Z - Best badguy of the bunch. *Sadistic with no compassion at all.

Katherine Steiner-Davion - BattleTech - A total cold-hearted witch with no compasion or conscience whatsoever. She assassinated her own mother so she could become Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth sooner, after all...

Hmm... I'll have to think more about this... *Though I'll have to support the Kefka vote all the way, in the meantime.

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

HomerHT
2006-05-01, 07:07 PM
Whoever said Soze from Usual Suspects, I totally agree. He was awesome.

How about Galcian and Ramirez from Skies of Arcadia? They were so hardcore.

alchemyprime
2006-05-01, 07:26 PM
I don't know if he's already been mentioned, but he needs mentioning:

Joker.

He may not be a Skeletor, or a Megatron, but he was the purest essence of Chaotic Evil I can muster. He didn't care who got hurt, or how they got hurt, as long as he did it and it was funny. And NEVER try to explain a joke to him.

Harlequin: See? Batman's upside down, so his frown is a smile!
Joker: Harley, it's not funny IF YOU AHVE TO EXPLAIN IT!

And of course, nothings better than the fear on someone's face when you pull out a gun, the relief when it shoots a flag, and the terror when it sprays a lethal dose of laughing gas in their face.

;D

Lidjis
2006-05-01, 09:04 PM
Im surprised no one has mentioned Padan Fain/Mordeth from the Wheel of time. Forget the dark one, I love evil characters who aren't fighting for either side, more like loose cannons.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-01, 09:29 PM
Im surprised no one has mentioned Padan Fain/Mordeth from the Wheel of time. Forget the dark one, I love evil characters who aren't fighting for either side, more like loose cannons.


Eh, i didn't like him all that much, creepy, but never seemed like that big a deal to me

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2006-05-02, 12:38 AM
I'd give biggest/baddest credit to a Half-Fiend Tarrasque, with revised feats including Magic in the Blood (PGtF, 1/day spell-like abilities become 3/day). Use Quicken Spell-Like Ability for Blasphemy, Horrid Wilting, Destruction, and Summon Monster IX, and Maximize Spell-Like Ability (CA) for Horrid Wilting. Throw in some epic feats like Epic Will and Devastating Critical (bite), probably also Dire Charge. Replace all six instances of Toughness (+18 hp) with one Improved Toughness (+48 hp) to free up five available feats.

Its Outsider skill points should go into Listen, Spot, Hide, and Move Silently, among other things. That way he's the one determining the encounter distance, not the PCs. The big difference is probably in its ability to both fly and use ranged attacks. A single Blasphemy at caster level 48 will insta-kill anything with 38 or fewer HD, at CR 23. PCs will have to cast Silence as a pre-buff or Contingency, and even then its Quickened Destruction and Quickened Maximized Horrid Wilting will make it hard on them. He can even Quickened Summon Monster IX for some lackeys like Fiendish Dire Tigers.

Definitely the biggest and baddest evil guy out there, and with the Half-Fiend stat boosts he's more cunning than his near-animal intelligence version.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2006-05-02, 12:47 AM
It's hard to pick just one!

My top two right now are Iago from Othello and King Haggard and the Red Bull from The Last Unicorn are the three that spring immediately to mind. The latter two were the stuff of my nightmares in my childhood, the former in my adult years.

-Blue

smartdumkid
2006-05-02, 12:57 AM
I think the BBBEG I've ever seen was Ma'ar from the Mercedes Lackey Valdemar series... He destroyed the bulk of society in his first life and designed a spell that allowed his spirit to hide in the energy realm until a descendant of his used the most basic spell- call fire- and then emerged from his haven to destroy their soul and take their new young body and keep all of his knowledge. Note- he raped several hundred women in his first life to assure several appopriate offspring for generations to come. When he came back to life he made a sport of trying to conquer the world for a few life times and then spent several lifetimes simply seeking revenge against anyone (and their descendants) or anything that angered him in any of his lifetimes.

Wehrkind
2006-05-02, 04:14 AM
Appologies for inherent incoherencies... I have been awake way too long here...

Tessai from Ninja Scroll, while not exactly uber, really seared himself into my memory for having good lines and just a terrifying appearance, even if the movie's deus ex vagoona kills him in a cheating manner.
Gemma from the same film is also good; cunning, and just impossible to stop.

Along the impossible to stop lines, Zeiram from Iria is another frightening juggernaught along the "Why won't you die?!" lines. Not a mastermind per se, but like the Tarresque just the mention brings stutters of "Kill what now?"

If you are looking for an excellent historical villain, consider Alexander the Great. He has exceptional talent and drive, and uses it to first wipe out classical Greece's long held autonomy, including removing the entire city of Thebes brick by brick from the face of the Earth forever. He then procedes to conquer by blood and fire the whole of the Persian Empire (to the adulation of his troops) and essentially the Eastern part of the known world. All the while he becomes even more megalomaniacle, and less and less Western and Greek, becoming paranoid and killing his most trusted advisors and generals (to rather less adulation of his troops), while becoming obsessed with his own godhood. This is a man whose name made nations tremble and collapse to the ground, whose descent into maddness could not stop his building a huge empire.

If that doesn't terrify your PC's, either as the citizens of his victim states, or better as lieutentants of Alexander who fear his rapidly progressing despotic tendancies, yet fear to not be loyal to so powerful a man, there is just something wrong with them.

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-05-02, 04:58 AM
What a sound case for the historical figure. Why, one could even say that Alexander would make a great villian. :P

Blade-Bearer_Ian
2006-05-02, 05:09 AM
Yggdrasil from Tales of Symphonia... You have to beat him around 6 times throughout the game, and he's alwasy so damn annoying! he likes to posess party members and manipulate everything from his comet world Derris-Kharlan...

Wehrkind
2006-05-02, 05:45 AM
What a sound case for the historical figure. Why, one could even say that Alexander would make a great villian.

See, I tried REALLY hard to avoid that pun, though I wanted to utter its forbidden syllables so keenly. Oh, to give into such guilty pleasures... Remind me some time to tell the story of the dolphins who live forever.

Oh, if you want some interesting information on Alexander (and a case could be made for Cortes, should you happen to be an Aztec campaign) take a peek at the book "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Davis Hanson. I think an expanded version called "Why the West has Won" is out now. Definitely a great read for historical battles and the cultures that drove them.

soylentplaid
2006-05-02, 09:53 AM
Damn, nobody picked my favorite BBEG of all time.

Lavos from Chrono Trigger. Thing's a giant spiky turtle with world-annihilating powers. Crashes into the world 65 million years ago, wiping out the dinosaurs, then spends millions of years at the center of the Earth guiding the evolution of the planet so that when he's ready he has something to eat.

Now THAT'S evil!

NEO|Phyte
2006-05-02, 10:18 AM
I'd give biggest/baddest credit to a Half-Fiend Tarrasque, with revised feats including Magic in the Blood (PGtF, 1/day spell-like abilities become 3/day). Use Quicken Spell-Like Ability for Blasphemy, Horrid Wilting, Destruction, and Summon Monster IX, and Maximize Spell-Like Ability (CA) for Horrid Wilting. Throw in some epic feats like Epic Will and Devastating Critical (bite), probably also Dire Charge. Replace all six instances of Toughness (+18 hp) with one Improved Toughness (+48 hp) to free up five available feats.

Its Outsider skill points should go into Listen, Spot, Hide, and Move Silently, among other things. That way he's the one determining the encounter distance, not the PCs. The big difference is probably in its ability to both fly and use ranged attacks. A single Blasphemy at caster level 48 will insta-kill anything with 38 or fewer HD, at CR 23. PCs will have to cast Silence as a pre-buff or Contingency, and even then its Quickened Destruction and Quickened Maximized Horrid Wilting will make it hard on them. He can even Quickened Summon Monster IX for some lackeys like Fiendish Dire Tigers.

Definitely the biggest and baddest evil guy out there, and with the Half-Fiend stat boosts he's more cunning than his near-animal intelligence version.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Half-Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) requires an INT of at least 4 on the base creature. Tarrasque only has INT 3

Behold_the_Void
2006-05-02, 11:46 AM
Ugh, I need to get Tactics back from my friend. I remember Adramelk, but I don't remember Dycedarg enough.

Albedo is also a really good choice, he's definitely got that creepy insane aspect down.

And I love Mid-Boss, so I am going to support that even though Spoiler: he's actually Krichevskoy watching over Laharl and guiding him into being a proper overlord and all that.

TimeWizard
2006-05-02, 07:36 PM
See what I mean? Trust nobody who is suave enough to carry out the Gothic Coat/Bare Torso look. They always have a hidden agenda.

And can Dr. Cube get any love for being "So deliciously Evil?"

Krulla
2006-05-02, 07:59 PM
Dr. Breen from half life 2 - He betrayed his own race for the sake of power, he is charismatic as all hell, and sociopathic to the max.

Emperor Palpatine - Where Vader eventually repented, Palpatine is pure evil - especially if you've read the Dark Empire comics. He's effectively immortal, his one and only agenda is absolute power over every living, sentient being in the galaxy, he's a master politician, general, strategist, and planner. However, for some reason, he always seems to be defeated by a angsty farmboy.

Sauron - He's basically a Demi-God, he has legions of twisted, evil, corrupt henchmen, he aspires to nothing less than absolute domination over everyone and everything, and he's cunning as all hell.

Saruman - He betrayed the whole world. And he's charismatic to boot.

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-05-02, 09:10 PM
Wehr: The thing I like to keep having fun with in regards to the original Great One, is to use him as an example of a bad ass gay guy when faced with homophobic bigotry.

Cortes was just evil plain evil in the purest sense of the term. -of course, the colonization of the Americas is rife with deplorable acts and mass death. The birth of many a nation on this side of the pond are quite bloody indeed.

Tiberian
2006-05-02, 09:41 PM
Sci-Fi Movie- Darth Vader
Sci-Fi Novel- Achilles (Ender's Shadow series)
Scariest Normal in Fiction- Alex DeLarge (A Clockwork Orange)
Marvel U- Kingpin or Bullseye (small scale anyway)
DC U- Joker
Historical- Stalin
TV Show- Wolfram & Hart: lawyers, an entire firm. ran by devils, what could be a worse opponent.
Contemporary Fiction - Camerlango Carlo Ventresca: Betrayed his church to reawaken religion. Just an interesting villian right there. (Angels & Demons)

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-05-02, 10:56 PM
Why not just say Hitler and be done with it? I mean seriously, when anyone tries to smear another in terms of being evil that's the first name to come up a good deal of the time. The comparison doesn't even have to make sense for people to even use it!

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-02, 11:41 PM
Way to kill the thread, Hadrian (kidding, but refuse to use smilies.)

Besides, most of us are talking about fictional villains, particularly from movies.

Ing
2006-05-02, 11:59 PM
because HItler is not an evil clown







clowns are just satan


and i think he fails to live up to the same level as Satan

CockroachTeaParty
2006-05-03, 12:07 AM
After seeing Silent Hill, the movie, it reminded me of a few good, er, bad villains.

Walter Sullivan: You sort of feel bad for him when he was abandoned by his parents, but it's hard to forgive a guy who murders 15+ people in cold blood within the span of a week or so, including two innocent young twins. And then, after killing himself with a spoon through the neck, he comes back as a ghost to kill even more people.

Pyramid Head: A silent, slow, dirty, giant-knife wielding psycho with a giant metal pyramid encasing his head. He creeped me out to no end in the second game, and he would make a sweet villian in d20 modern, or something...

Wehrkind
2006-05-03, 04:00 AM
Actually Hadrian, I think Stalin would give Hitler a good run for his money. Throw Chairman Mao in there, and you would have a good discussion that may or may not have a place on this board.

If I get some initiative and don't fall asleep here at work, I may see if I can't scrabble up some death tolls and examples of each and PM them your way. I honestly think that Hitler is only Capt. evil because Stalin was allied with the US after Hitler stabbed him in the back, and also simply because many people didn't (and don't) want to believe that the whole Communist Experiment could possibly have gone horribly awry.

My god did it ever though...

sun_tzu
2006-05-03, 06:45 AM
Actually, I think the reason people find Hitler more horrifying than Stalin is their motives. Stalin killed millions of people for opposing him (or being suspected of the same). Hitler killed millions of people just for existing. That makes it creepier, IMO.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-03, 07:06 AM
Who cares about Biggest or Baddest? My vote for coolest goes to one Gerald Tarrant. Points if you know what I'm talkin' about.

As for Hitler vs. Stalin--yeah, that's it exactly. Stalin killed loads of people, but Hitler actually methodically attempted genocide.

TSGames
2006-05-03, 07:36 AM
I had some contenders, but they raised too many unanswered questions--Does Skeletor's lightning do Vile damage? Is the Predators' invisibility field Extraordinary, Natural, or Supernatural? Is the T800 really all that lawful? Snakes on a Plane: Swarm, Mob, or Area effect?

Sepheroth-ultimate bad guy.


Throw Chairman Mao in there, and you would have a good discussion that may or may not have a place on this board.

Granted that Mao did kill over three million people with reforms, he also substantially modernized and industrialized China, and is mostly responsible for China becoming the economic superpower it is today. Unlike Hitler, and for the most part Stalin, the deaths caused by Mao(most of them) were unfortunate side effects of his attempts to help China, and thereby he is not even in the same league as Stalin or Hitler.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-03, 07:40 AM
Sepheroth-ultimate bad guy.

Sure... if you think the "ultimate bad guy" should be a whiny mama's boy who just kind of sits in a bubble while his evil plan unfolds.

TSGames
2006-05-03, 07:41 AM
Sure... if you think the "ultimate bad guy" should be a whiny mama's boy who just kind of sits in a bubble while his evil plan unfolds.
Have you even seen his sword?

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-03, 07:43 AM
Yes, I have.

And frankly, katanas are NOT as cool as fanboys think they are.
Neither are oversized swords.

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-05-03, 09:18 AM
I honestly think that Hitler is only Capt. evil because Stalin was allied with the US after Hitler stabbed him in the back...

Seems you agree with my assessment. :P

-and yes, the communism experiment did go a touch awry.

Akiosama
2006-05-03, 12:09 PM
Um... we should drop the whole RL history bit, before this thread gets locked down, peeps. It's an interesting thread, and I, for one, would like to see it last a while longer.

Thanks,

Game on!

Akio

Ing
2006-05-03, 02:23 PM
how bout Green Goblin

list of evil things he's done

*was a SOB even before he was given superpowers
*mass murder and theivery
*date rape/seduce his rival's GF just for the statisfaction of taking something very special way from him
*siring children with said unholy union
*killing GF infront of hero to keep his reputation in tack and just ot **** with the hero
*sacrificing his son on the alter of revenge
*driving his other children with lies and deciete to twist them towards his will
*killing/harvesting unborn child of hero
*forcing hero to break him out of jail

lets face it....he's just all around badass psycho ****

BigBull17
2006-05-03, 02:39 PM
best ever i'd have to say is Iago from Othello


You beat me to it. Never have I seen a plot more intricitly(sp) woven for absolutly no other reason than to watch people suffer.

TSGames
2006-05-03, 03:11 PM
You beat me to it. Never have I seen a plot more intricitly(sp) woven for absolutly no other reason than to watch people suffer.
Actually, Iago never stated his reasons for his plot, but I do agree that he is one of the most evil, and all the more because of it.

Magnus_Samma
2006-05-03, 03:27 PM
I refuse to enter the Hitler/Stalin/whomever debate on the grounds that real life villains should not get props for bring the best/worst or whatever. They existed, the world would be a better place if they hadn't, and that's really all that needs to be said.


Who cares about Biggest or Baddest? My vote for coolest goes to one Gerald Tarrant. Points if you know what I'm talkin' about.

I agree with you there, insomuch as Gerald Tarrant is easily the most complex, intelligent, realistic, tragic, and downright badass characters I have ever read. Damien might be the trilogy's main character by default, but Gerald just absolutely steals the show.

That being said, I can't say Gerald was really much of a villain insomuch as his role in the books was not that of the primary antagonist. Calesta might not have been as clever as Gerald, but his vision was much more sweeping and grandiose, his plans just as complex and infinitely wider in scope, and he almost got away with it. Besides which I love the fact that his power was illusion. Stuff like that normally gets a bad rap (how many D&D characters specialize in illusion?), but Calesta really proved how powerful, and at the same time subtle, such an ability can be.

BigBull17
2006-05-03, 03:36 PM
Actually, Iago never stated his reasons for his plot, but I do agree that he is one of the most evil, and all the more because of it.

He gives a couple of reasons for his plot through out the play, but by the end he just kinda pushes on because he likes to see people suffer. Another good villian was the leader of the Dragoons in the movie The Patriot. I mean come on, he locks a town full of people in a church and burs it to the ground. Evil.

Ing
2006-05-03, 04:17 PM
Funny fact


if you set the number 1 to equal "discusions concerning real life tyrants and dictators" and -1 to equal "discusions questioning Iago's motivation" and -1<x<1 as other discusions on BBEG, if you graph this thread you will get the plot of Cos(x).

fun math

NEO|Phyte
2006-05-03, 04:21 PM
Funny fact


if you set the number 1 to equal "discusions concerning real life tyrants and dictators" and -1 to equal "discusions questioning Iago's motivation" and -1<x<1 as other discusions on BBEG, if you graph this thread you will get the plot of Cos(x).

fun math
wait, what?

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-03, 04:53 PM
wait, what?


He is commenting on the fact that the thread has a bunch of posts about real life guys and then some about random BBEGs and then about Iago and his potential "motives". So if you assinged theose three things a number value and graphed them they would form a Cosine curve is wavy and up and down and stuff....

senior_stabby
2006-05-03, 05:11 PM
first of what is "othello". i have two baddies
1.bozo.he was a psycotic pc who had cyborg weapons and cthulu's backing
2.automatons there a race of robots with a genral who's so big he has a factory on his back

Ing
2006-05-03, 05:28 PM
first of what is "othello". i have two baddies
1.bozo.he was a psycotic pc who had cyborg weapons and cthulu's backing
2.automatons there a race of robots with a genral who's so big he has a factory on his back

*weaps for the younger generations dying gray matter)

Othello is a classic tale of betrayal, jealousy, and self-destruction caused by insecurities written by the Bard (Willy not Elan). its very fast paced and enjoyable, read it. the anthisis to the brooding self questioning philisophical Hamlet

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-03, 05:31 PM
first of what is "othello".
I... I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Akiosama
2006-05-03, 05:34 PM
Oh, I thought it was that game with the two sided black and white checkers that you flipped over as they were surrounded in a line... ;)

A second to learn, a lifetime to master. (Far, far, far more appropriate for Go, IMO.)

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

Scorpina
2006-05-03, 05:34 PM
I don't think Iago was much of a great villain, really. In Acts 1-4 it's just too easy to like him and route for him, and the only reason that doesn't apply in Act 5 is that his character changes radically for no apparent reason...

Ing
2006-05-03, 05:43 PM
uh...no from teh get go he's evil

he's racist and misogymist even by victorian standards, cruel evil and scheming. read it agian. first sceen he tries to ruin Othello for no good reason, then cons a man out of money in a running gag that continues throught the entire play. he ruins Casseo's carrerr....i mean just wow. he's like the hardest guy to root for.
though granted in the begining Willy was probably playing with the victorian audienc'es preconceptions on right and wrong and racial superiority having a white man the morale inferior to the Moore, thus at first tricking them into rooting for him until it becomes painfully clear what a monster Iago is

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-03, 05:56 PM
how bout Green Goblin

list of evil things he's done

*was a SOB even before he was given superpowers
*mass murder and theivery
*date rape/seduce his rival's GF just for the statisfaction of taking something very special way from him
*siring children with said unholy union
*killing GF infront of hero to keep his reputation in tack and just ot **** with the hero
*sacrificing his son on the alter of revenge
*driving his other children with lies and deciete to twist them towards his will
*killing/harvesting unborn child of hero
*forcing hero to break him out of jail

lets face it....he's just all around badass psycho ****
Huh...I should actually read comic books, because that beats the hell out of his movie version.

Anyway, while I agree that real life villains should be out of the topic of this thread, how about South Park's version of Saddam Hussein? He repeatedly tries to take over Canada, builds a WMD plant in Heaven, and emotionally abuses Satan. How much more evil can you get?

And then there's Professor Chaos, the most devious BBEG in the history of television...

Scorpina
2006-05-03, 05:56 PM
He tries to ruin Othello because he passed him over with promotion, and because he believes he slept with Emelia. Making him think the same about Desdemona is a fitting revenge.

Roderigo, yes, he takes complete advantage of. But then, Roderigo is a noble idiot who lets that happen and is foolish enough to go through with it despite it being pretty obvious he's being used. Really, Iago is if anything a working class hero in the way he acts towards Roderigo up until the actual killing, which is part of the random character shift.

And finally, Cassio: 'he has a daily beauty in his life which makes me ugly'. Plain jealousy. A perfectly relatable-to emotion.

The only character in the entire play whose more sympathetic than him is Emelia...

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-03, 06:04 PM
No, he tries to ruin Othello 'cause he's an SOB. He says he heard a rumor once that Othello slept with his wife, that's all.

Later on in the play, he even says himself that he doesn't really have an actual motive.

Scorpina
2006-05-03, 06:06 PM
Really? What scene is that in?

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-03, 06:17 PM
There's a number of places where he admits his motives are spurious--and in general, look at the way he tosses up potential motives like excuses, just so he'll have some kind of reason.
I hate the moor, and it is thought abroad, that twixt my sheets 'has done my office; I know not if't be true... yet I for mere suspicion in that kind, will do, as if for surety."

He doesn't know the rumor is true, but he's willing to assume it is in order to destroy Othello. In the end, it comes down to him admitting, "I hate the Moor".

TimeWizard
2006-05-03, 06:38 PM
Where else could people go from Kefka to Iago to Green Goblin? ah, such is life a joy.

Sephiroth was neither the penultimate or the pansy. The group belonging to the former are fan boys who abide by the aptly named rule #156 Sephiroth Memorial Escape Clause
Any misdeed up to and including multiple genocide is forgiveable if you're cool enough. While the latter are anti-fanboys, hating said villian because many absent mindedly consider him so great.

bosssmiley
2006-05-03, 06:47 PM
uh...no from teh get go he's evil

he's racist and misogymist even by victorian standards, cruel evil and scheming. *read it agian. *first sceen he tries to ruin Othello for no good reason, then cons a man out of money in a running gag that continues throught the entire play. *he ruins Casseo's carrerr....i mean just wow. *he's like the hardest guy to root for.

though granted in the begining Willy was probably playing with the victorian audienc'es preconceptions on right and wrong and racial superiority having a white man the morale inferior to the Moor, thus at first tricking them into rooting for him until it becomes painfully clear what a monster Iago is.

Err, you might want to check your dates mate. Shakespeare wrote "Othello" in the early years of the 17th century - that's the late Elizabethan period, Victorian was 19th c.

Elizabethan - "Shakespeare in Love"
Victorian - "From Hell" or "LXG"

Racism as we know it today didn't exist back then. Sure Hawkins and Drake were just taken the West African slave trade over from the Portuguese, but they all justified it on grounds of Christianity vs. paganism rather than by race.

Sure Othello is called a ********** in the play, but that just meant dark-skinned pagan (ie: foreigner), the phrase was used to describe everyone from Indians to Malays. Any prejudice against him stems from the fact the Moors were traditionally Islamic at that period (much as were Venice's Turkish enemies).

Iago, well Scorpina and others have examined your own breakdown of his actions for motivation. His pettyness over slights and the savage over-reaction in the scale of his vengeance (classic Jacobean tragedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_play) in scope and scale) is part of what makes him such a magnificent b*st*rd...

Ing
2006-05-03, 06:50 PM
Huh...I should actually read comic books, because that beats the hell out of his movie version.

Anyway, while I agree that real life villains should be out of the topic of this thread, how about South Park's version of Saddam Hussein? He repeatedly tries to take over Canada, builds a WMD plant in Heaven, and emotionally abuses Satan. How much more evil can you get?

And then there's Professor Chaos, the most devious BBEG in the history of television...

yup, Osborn is a bad ass in the comics. nothing's worse than a psycotic superpowered rich boy who has made it his personal mission to destroy your life. the guy is all kinds of messed up.....kinda sucks in Ultimate universe though....


and on Othello...excuse me for getting a small fact wrong, Elizabethan than...meant to put Elizabethan, typo. true but i'd think you'd find a black person would still be treated diffrently in England at the time than a white, regardless of religious choice. besides its mentioned numerous times that the stereotype of the Moore is as a savage. there was racism there even if there wasn't a klan, but then agian in their defense they were more isolated from teh world than the average person today...



whatever




on a more cheerful note, sounds like there's enough debate over this to possibly start an interesting campaign. would anyone be interested in an either lOXG typle game or a ultimite show down of ultimite destiny type thing?

basic premise for each, players create their favorite literally, film, art ect character for d20, and depending on the game either duke it out in a battle royal to see who is left standing or are thrust into a task or quest by some godlike jerk who pulled them all out of their respective worlds just to toy with them?

anyone interested in such a feat?

Athanatos
2006-05-03, 07:05 PM
Have you even seen his sword?

Worst. Reason. Ever.

Yeah, Sephiroth is just a cookie-cutter emo pretty boy with a big sword. Square tried their hardest to make him a badass, but all of the "cool" things he does just feel so incredibly synthesised, like your grade school principal riding a skateboard at the pep rally to prove how "kewl" he is. Ooh, swords. Ooh, killing. Ooh, stoicism. I yawn.

Jon Irenicus, on the other hand, was a compelling villain. In addition to the fact that he was powerful, methodical, and badass, he seemed... I dunno... human. His plan wasn't to have the world bow beneath his feet or to destroy all humanity. He simply wanted what had been taken from him, and was fearful (as we all are, in a way) of being unimportant and forgotten. The way he transcended those fears and turned them into evil ambition is what makes him so great. Well, and everything else I've mentioned though.

I'm sad, though, that half of these villain references are going over my head. I'mma have to check some of them out.

Scorpina
2006-05-03, 07:07 PM
Heh, Irenicus seeming human. How ironic.

I always prefered Bodhi as a villain than Irenicus, personally. I'm not quite sure why, but she seems a better foil.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-03, 07:07 PM
Hmm, i must say given Scorpina's reasoning, i ahve to agree, Iago isn't as motiveless as he first seems....

But he is stlill quite evil, and i feel a decent villain; albeit not one of my favorites....

has Edmond Dantes been mentioned? Sure he isn't a truly evil villain but i don't see him as a hero, more of an anti-hero. He methods of revenge are extremely devious and complete. In many ways he is terrfying and sadistic, which is another reason i seem him as an anti-hero or maybe heroic villain......



EDIT: Scorpina: yeah Irenicus was good but Bodhi was deliciously evil, he line after her first fight (i think) "Well that was.....educationa;" was excellent. My main complaint is that she was used very little (considering she was pretty much the #2 bad guy) and not very challanging.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-03, 07:09 PM
Oh, yeah--Lord Foul, from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

Big? Oh, yeah.
Bad? Oh, *yeah*.
Evil? Yea, verily.

The_Werebear
2006-05-03, 07:21 PM
has Edmond Dantes been mentioned? *Sure he isn't a truly evil villain but i don't see him as a hero, more of an anti-hero. *He methods of revenge are extremely devious and complete. *In many ways he is terrfying and sadistic, which is another reason i seem him as an anti-hero or maybe heroic villain......

*

Dantes is definately a villian for most of the book, he is just the protagonist so we love him. Still, he exhibits all of the standard BBEG traits.

A) Huge amounts of planning
B) Manipulation of far away events, giving everyone around the impression he is in total control
C) Every contingency you can think of
D) A near limitless supply of cash
E) A sense of the dramatic
F) Skill with poison.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-03, 09:37 PM
yup, Osborn is a bad ass in the comics. nothing's worse than a psycotic superpowered rich boy who has made it his personal mission to destroy your life. the guy is all kinds of messed up.....kinda sucks in Ultimate universe though....
Hmm...all I know of the Ultimate 'verse is from the Ultimate Spiderman game. Isn't he basically the Hulk...but on fire!?

Still not as lame as ultimate Shocker.

And I'd be so totally down for an Ultimate Showdown-type game. But only if I get dibs on Chuck Norris (well, Walker/Delta Force Guy, technically.)

Callos_DeTerran
2006-05-03, 10:26 PM
Hmm, i must say given Scorpina's reasoning, i ahve to agree, Iago isn't as motiveless as he first seems....

This Iago seems much like my own favorite villian (see Ever) the Major...

Favorite Sci-Fi: Definitly Ender Wiggin. While he may not have been strictly evil he definitly had the methods and process's of a BBEG. As a twelve year old, I think, he masterminded the XENOCIDE of the only other spacefaring race which was also vastly superior to his own. More so when he was younger a kid continued to pick on him so Ender decided to make it so the kid never hurt him again...by laying him then proceeding to viciously kick him in the side, groin, and finally in the face. The kid died. He actually got to the point of military genius that after killing the buggers he was banned from earth so no army could have him on their side. Now theres fear for ya! I mean Ender was genius and his strategies where terrifying if you where on the other side. Ender may not be actual evil but his actions speak otherwise.

Favorite Fantasy: Hmmm this is a tough one. Probaly would have to be...Martel. From David Eddings series. I actually felt bad when he was, you know killed. And that I think is one of the true hallmarks of a good villian. Someone you can't help but hate but when they finally get a sword stuffed in them you can't help but feel bad because they'll never endanger the world again. That and Martel knew when he was going to lose and planned accordingly. Also a good thing in a villian.

Favorite Game Villian: While he definitly was not the strongest or even the most badass I took more pleasure in killing Maester Seymour from FFX then any other villian...EVER! AND HE FRIGGIN WOULDN'T STAY DEAD!! HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO KILL A GUY! (This would be the another hallmark for a good villian if the first doesn't apply. You take a sincere relish out of pummeling their ass into oblivion.)

Favorite BBEG Ever: The Major from Hellsing. Tops its not even a contest. The Major is one of those "I won't fight you but I'll get this army of followers to due it instead." This was also an army of nazi vampires. The man er...thing (He's not human but its yet decided just WHAT he is). Perhaps what is the greatest is that he can't lose, because he has no goal. Just a means and thats war. And response an enemy could conciviably make leads to war and is also predicted for by the Major! Not to mention the fact theres no point behind the war other then the war itself. As disgusting as this is going to sound the Major pratically mentally masterbuates to the thought of global war.

Ing
2006-05-03, 10:32 PM
Hmm...all I know of the Ultimate 'verse is from the Ultimate Spiderman game. Isn't he basically the Hulk...but on fire!?

Still not as lame as ultimate Shocker.

And I'd be so totally down for an Ultimate Showdown-type game. But only if I get dibs on Chuck Norris (well, Walker/Delta Force Guy, technically.)


yes i'd suspect there'd be a big rush to get the epic level monk with hold person spell like ability


and yah hulk on fire...they managed to take away everything that made the character bad ass....way to go marvel real brain-child u had there.


hope somone gets fired for that

Desidus
2006-05-03, 11:56 PM
I'd read through the entire topic... but no :p

Anyways, my vote goes to Grand Admiral Thrawn (I KNOW he was mentioned here... he just had to be). He... he just could. His death, IMO, was complete BS, but I guess it fit, and his last words were fitting...

An art fanatic that can look at how your room is cleaned and know the most efficient way to kill you. Now THAT'S a true villian.

CommanderFalken
2006-05-03, 11:56 PM
I'm gonna have to post this one... Sorry if someone's mentioned it, I'm running out of time... (dam homework).

BTW: Firefly Spoiler.

Adelai Niska, from Firefly:o.

That crazy SOB freaks me out, man. I mean, he looks like some cheery elderly russian man, and he talks like one. Always polite and cheerful. But he's torturing people! Have you seen War Stories?

Niska: You died, Mr. Reynolds.
Mal: Seemed like the thing to do.
Niska: I don't like it when you die, Mr. Reynolds. When you die, it means that I can't hurt you anymore.

He's cheery, yet totally psychotic. Excellent BBEG. Only problem is that he wasn't around for long. Curses that Fox station, yes precious, Curses it! We doesn't like it, no precious!

Ing
2006-05-04, 12:06 AM
I'm gonna have to post this one... Sorry if someone's mentioned it, I'm running out of time... (dam homework).

BTW: Firefly Spoiler.

Adelai Niska, from Firefly:o.

That crazy SOB freaks me out, man. I mean, he looks like some cheery elderly russian man, and he talks like one. Always polite and cheerful. But he's torturing people! Have you seen War Stories?

Niska: You died, Mr. Reynolds.
Mal: Seemed like the thing to do.
Niska: I don't like it when you die, Mr. Reynolds. When you die, it means that I can't hurt you anymore.

He's cheery, yet totally psychotic. Excellent BBEG. Only problem is that he wasn't around for long. Curses that Fox station, yes precious, Curses it! We doesn't like it, no precious!


seconded one of the best villians ever
*finishing torturing a man to death*

"i'm sorry you had to see that."
"well i'm sure he was a very bad man."
"My brother-in-law...oy i am getting earful at dinner tonight"

((paraphrasing don't have it memorized))

Finwe
2006-05-04, 12:13 AM
Oh, yeah--Lord Foul, from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

Big? Oh, yeah.
Bad? Oh, *yeah*.
Evil? Yea, verily.


Foul is severely lacking in the "bad-ass" factor IMO. Definately Evil, and definately a "big" evil, but not really "bad."


On an unrelated note, The first Chronicles, if taken alone, are probably some of hte best books I've read. The second Chronicles kind of ruined them though.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-05-04, 12:17 AM
...I likes The Wounded Land best of all.

And yeah, that's badass. He loses--but in losing, corrupts the land for a thousand years, until the winners are wiped out?

Tryranus_Magus
2006-05-04, 02:03 PM
I've been lurking on this thread for sometime now. I think that most of the BBEG that people are mentioning are interesting, but some of them are so obscure that I don't get their reference. Others are intellectually beyond me (and I won't admit which ones they are).

However, it seems that the BBEG isn't necessarily Big, Bad, Evil, or even a guy. Aren't we talking about a character that is sooooo impossing, that the mere thought of facing such a character instills in you so much fear and trepidation, that you are practically frozen in your footsteps?

Sci-Fi Silverscreen: Lord Vader! He would own Alien, Predator, anyone... even the Emperor... TTOW!

Sci-Fi TV: Anubis! Why? I don't know. Maybe because he was a cross between Q and Vader.

Books: Akasha from Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles. She was soooo BA, that she sat there like a statue for millenia because there was nothing evil enough to do that would be worth her while. When she finally decided to venture out, she struck trembling, wet yourself fear in whomever looked upon her. "What are you looking?" BAM! Nothing! Because you are ashes!

Horror: Freddy Kreuger Unless you don't sleep, you can't get away. Fin!

RL: I'm really not trying to ruffle any feathers, but Emperor Hirohito surrender, not because of his fear of the US arsenal, but the mere fact that Stalin had just declared war on Japan. Better to surrender to the US, than have Stalin march on Tokyo. THAT my friends is BBEG on a scale that hits way too close to home.

Callos_DeTerran
2006-05-04, 02:31 PM
I will always dispute Lord Vadar's claim on BBEG of the future. Why? He may be really strong in a hands on fight but it takes more then that to be a BBEG. The vote for Sci-Fi BBEG will always go to Ender Wiggin and Grand Admiral Thrawn in my book.

Mr Croup
2006-05-04, 02:32 PM
I'm really not trying to ruffle any feathers, but Emperor Hirohito surrender, not because of his fear of the US arsenal, but the mere fact that Stalin had just declared war on Japan. Better to surrender to the US, than have Stalin march on Tokyo. THAT my friends is BBEG on a scale that hits way too close to home.

um, I'm pretty sure that the utter devestation that was caused by the U.S. dropping two nuclear bombs on areas with heavy civilian populations was more of a reason.

Tryranus_Magus
2006-05-04, 02:39 PM
I really think BBEG, means instilling bed wetting fear. I will always argue that Vader would make any hero crap his/her pants.




um, I'm pretty sure that the utter devestation that was caused by the U.S. dropping two nuclear bombs on areas with heavy civilian populations was more of a reason.

Definitely arguable. But if you look at the timing, you'll notice that Little Boy touched down on Aug 6th, Fat Man touched down on Aug 9th, and still the Emperor refused. Stalin declared war after Fat Man and Emporer Hirohito announces surrender Aug 14th. But again, maybe that's for another thread and/or message board.

Mr Croup
2006-05-04, 02:44 PM
I really think BBEG, means instilling bed wetting fear. I will always argue that Vader would make any hero crap his/her pants.


Definitely arguable. But if you look at the timing, you'll notice that Little Boy touched down on Aug 6th, Fat Man touched down on Aug 9th, and still the Emperor refused. Stalin declared war after Fat Man and Emporer Hirohito announces surrender Aug 14th. But again, maybe that's for another thread and/or message board.

One, I agree about Vader.

Two, it can't be said to be the only factor, but there is evidence that surrender was being prepared for before that point. Not to mention that many Japanese cite the dropping of the bombs as the moment that the fight left them. But you're write, this really doesn't belong in this thread, or even on these boards.

sun_tzu
2006-05-04, 02:54 PM
I will always dispute Lord Vadar's claim on BBEG of the future. Why? He may be really strong in a hands on fight but it takes more then that to be a BBEG. The vote for Sci-Fi BBEG will always go to Ender Wiggin and Grand Admiral Thrawn in my book.


While I agree that Thrawn beats Vader any time of the day, I really can't see how Ender can be a candidate for BBEGE. Sure, it was his tactical genius that allowed the xenocide, but...well, he was little more than a pawn. He wasn't in control of anything, and didn't even WANT to fight.

Callos_DeTerran
2006-05-04, 04:26 PM
While I agree that Thrawn beats Vader any time of the day, I really can't see how Ender can be a candidate for BBEGE. Sure, it was his tactical genius that allowed the xenocide, but...well, he was little more than a pawn. He wasn't in control of anything, and didn't even WANT to fight.

You don't have to be in charge or even want to fight in order to be evil. Like I said Ender himself may not have been evil but any BBEG would do well to learn from his methods.

senior_stabby
2006-05-04, 04:30 PM
ok i thout othello was a magna (don't read it, it dosen't look like it has explosions)

Akiosama
2006-05-04, 04:49 PM
Technically, isn't Darth Vader a BBEG of the PAST?

After all, isn't it "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."?

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

EDIT: And please don't use RL examples... That could get this locked down...

Tiberian
2006-05-04, 05:29 PM
How can Ender Wiggin be considered a BBEG? Sure, he commited xenocide, but in the next three books he sought atonement after he obliterated his own name. Ender is a good guy, after all he only commited xenocide to end his torture. Finally, Ender resurrected the buggers by replanting the queen and saved the Piggies from Starways Congress.

Callos_DeTerran
2006-05-04, 06:54 PM
As said like two times above, Ender may not be evil but his methods are.

Ing
2006-05-04, 07:48 PM
I'm gonna put another nod to the Joker
losses points due to lack of motive but gains points for wanton destruction.
talk about craping your pants meeting the guy the entire city goes into lock down whenever he gets out of the loony bin. he's like a human plague

The_Shaman
2006-05-04, 08:14 PM
I can't think of anyone who I can say will 100% win my approval for a fantasy BBEGE. Why? I suppose I have hard criteria:

- Must be evil: basically, if he wants something, and half the intelligent galaxy refuses, he should obliterate it. Whether it's done with frenzied joy or complete disregard is a matter of personal preference, both count. And, for that purpose, anything goes. A true evil villain does not stop at harming the close ones of an opponent, in fact, that is all the better - by the time the other one gets to him, he will be an emotional wreck, and easier to beat. Ruthless, vengeful, thorough... You fear him more than you hate him. Hanibal Lecter, perhaps?
- Must be in charge. Sorry, the BBEGE is nobody's pawn. Oh, they may think him to be, but they learn better... in fact, he'd get bonus points for playing possum.
- BBEGE must be scheming. Having a big army at your command is ok, but being able to make your opponents kill each other to death, and then smash the remains, is better.
- BBEGE must be fearsome. Yes, bed-wettingly fearsome, as you said. It's the kind of fear that makes his allies live on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
- BBEGE must be powerful andself-assured. Basically, the BBEGE knows he is incredible, and it oozes off him. Only the greatest are anything close to worthy rivals to him. The others can hope to get his attention as interesting, and hold it for a few seconds while he grinds them in the dust.

So, Vader is a very good EG, but he's not the biggest; the emperor is a much better villain than him. Now, if there was a category BBEG'sL (BBEG's Lieutenant), he could stand a chance. Though I think even then he would have a few problems with the competition. Sure, massacring the young jedi in the temple looks good on the CV, but overall, he's a sentimental fool.

And, to be honest, the emperor is a decent candidate, overall, but in scheming - supposedly his forte - he is a wet-behind-the-ears newbie compared to someone like KOTOR II's Kreia. Now that's an old-school Sith, make no mistake. Still, she herself falls short of many criteria, too. Now, for personality, I'd go with someone a la Alucard from Hellsing. Only, it would be more ruthless, more self-centered, and more... well, evil.

There are other good criteria, but perhaps these are the most important. Basically, it must be someone to put the group through the nine Hells, all the layers of the Abyss and still have enough tricks to scare them half out of their minds in the final showdown.

The Joker is ok, actually. A bit less serious than a BBEG should be, less purposeful, and less... well, in control. A BBEG doesn't crack, under pressure or no. See the parts about in control, above. Other than that, the Joker is a good candidate, but somehow lacks the lustre to make it to #1, I think.

Dhavaer
2006-05-04, 09:40 PM
What about the Demon King, from The Crucible? I'm not going to put any spoilers in, but Catherine's line when Philip goes off to war ("There is no greater storm...") is great.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-04, 09:53 PM
What about the Demon King, from The Crucible? I'm not going to put any spoilers in, but Catherine's line when Philip goes off to war ("There is no greater storm...") is great.


Isn't the Crucible about the Holocaust?????

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-04, 09:55 PM
Presumably, there's more than one The Crucible. I thought of the Hawthorne play about the Salem Witch Trials, personally.

Dhavaer
2006-05-04, 09:56 PM
I know of two Crucibles, neither of which has anything to do with the Holocaust.
One is a play and movie that's about witch trials, and the other is a trilogy of books set in medieval Europe. The one I'm referring to to the medieval one.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-04, 10:02 PM
I know of two Crucibles, neither of which has anything to do with the Holocaust.
One is a play and movie that's about witch trials, and the other is a trilogy of books set in medieval Europe. The one I'm referring to to the medieval one.

I think i confused the witch trials with the Holocaust.......

Ing
2006-05-05, 12:00 AM
the crucible play is an allegory towards McKarthyism.

you're probably confusing it with SHinler's list when you think Holocaust

Karu
2006-05-05, 01:20 AM
My old character.

Or Rakoth Maugrim, from Guy Gavriel Kay's "Tapestry of Fionavar", though I can clearly see the epic potential of a Brandin-like tyrant as in the same author's "Tigana"

Ing
2006-05-05, 02:00 AM
heres a good one, a Classic if you pardon the pun

Hera from Greek Mythology
specificly when she's antagonistic towards Hercules. drives hero insane sends swarms of monsters agianst him, makes him shovel heaping piles of horse feces.....and of course is a goddess.... definitly a Bib bad evil gal

smartdumkid
2006-05-05, 05:31 AM
Also the crucible when referring to McCarthyism was written by Miller not Hawthorne... Hawthorne was the scarlet letter.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-05, 05:43 AM
Ah, bloody hell, you're right. Always get my anti-Puritan authors mixed up.

Democratus
2006-05-05, 08:23 AM
I'm going to throw in a vote for Billy Zane's character, The Collector, from the movie Demon Knight.

He was spooky and humerous all at once. And he had style.

Starwoad
2006-05-05, 09:20 AM
Oderus Urungus.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/ViolenceHasArrived.jpg

He's the one in the middle.

Wolf53226
2006-05-05, 03:16 PM
To weight on the whole Emperor/Vader/Thrawn bit of debate.

A BBEG should summon up fear by his look, sound, pressence, and thoughts of him. While all three had a distinct look, Thrawn just doesn't have the pressence to inspire blind following, I mean, Daala just ignored his commands at the end, she didn't seem at all frightened of what he could do to her. He was a BBEG simply because he had superior intellegence, but unless people fillowed him willingly, he was weak. Really, Prince Xisor was a bigger BA than Thrawn, in almost all respects, and he hasn't even been mentioned.

The Emperor, although a worth candidate, falls short in one major issue, he sure didn't seem to frighten anyone. Without Vader, I'm not sure he could have held onto power in the Empire for long at all. To analyze with another example, are you really all that frightened by lex luthor, or are you frighted by the things he creates and controls? Heck when Luke is fighting the Demons in his mind, he doesn't picture the emperor, who is supposed to be supremely evil, nope, his mind conjures up our last candidate to fight on Degobah.

Vader wins, HANDS DOWN! Got the look to frighten children into wetting there bed from dreaming about him. The sound of his breathing could just send chills down your spine, just think of what went through Luke's mind in ESB when he couldn't see Vader, but knew he was there by the sound of the breathing? How about what Han was thinking when he was shooting Vader, and the blasts just kind of dissapated into Vader's hand. Pressence, I don't know about you, but him being like 6'7", able to hold General Antilles up one handed and choke him to death. What did all the Generals think when Vader was choking the insolent guy in ANH from across the table, or when he chokes a admiral to death from another ship. And talk about scheming, "Join me Luke, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son." Notice, no mention of the Emperor.

Tryranus_Magus
2006-05-05, 03:31 PM
To weight on the whole Emperor/Vader/Thrawn bit of debate.

A BBEG should summon up fear by his look, sound, pressence, and thoughts of him...

Vader wins, HANDS DOWN! * Got the look to frighten children into wetting there bed...

And talk about scheming, "Join me Luke, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son." * Notice, no mention of the Emperor.

WooHoo... someone who gets it!

Lord Vader rocks the casbar!

Ing
2006-05-05, 05:39 PM
yes but look at motivation
Vader first motivated by fear of loss and then when he took his first step it was just momentum, had to be evil, didn't have anything else to go back to.

Palpatine is motivated by a true love of power and sadistic devotion to EVIL. i'd say the empire does inspire dread or equally devotion since he's managed to rally poor saps around him. Return of the Jedi, does the alliance give a hoot that Vader's on the death star, no, they know he's a puppet the real target is the big cheese himself. if Vader dies, empire keeps on going, if Palpatine kicks it, it crumbles. (unless Vader takes over, but clearly the Alliance thinks they would still have an easier time taking on an empire ruled by Vader rather than continuing their war agianst Palpatine...they see him as what he is the servent)

remember Vader was currupted by Palpatine, probably remained evil just because the old SIth wizard was his only source of real human contact over the last 20 years. if seperated from Palpatine even for a short time with someone who is willing to truely socially interact with him, his devotion to evil wavers and eventually shatters. (same reason Palpatine needed Obi won out of the wy before he could currupt Vader in the first place) Palpatine on the other hand is not currupted, he made the choice himself and revels in it.

Vader is tortured by Evil, and its a solemn responsability to him, hear how sad he is in Jedi "its too late for me".. this is a man who regrets the decisions of his life, basicly he's just broken, he's evil cause he has nothing else in his life but keeping his staus quo. for Palpatine on the other hand its a life style choice. have you ever seen anyone so happy as he when he cuts down 3 jedi in the surprise round? or when he blasts Windu out the window, or almost crushes yoda, or zaps Luke. man just loves being evil. the old guy loves to hurt people.

true Vader is bad ass and kicks major rear end, but he's the servent. In D&D terms he's a black gaurd, but Palpatine is his freaking Devil Lord

sun_tzu
2006-05-05, 07:09 PM
I dunno...While fear is a very powerful tool, I wouldn't make it the main element for BBEGEness.
Lex Luthor isn't half as frightening as Jonathan Crane. And yet, dangerous as Scarecrow is, he's a joke compared to Lex.
Thrawn may not inspire the same fear as Vader (this might have something to do with the fact he's less trigger-happy in relation to his own staff), but good god, he gets the job done. Vader and Palpatine couldn't beat the Rebellion despite severely out-numbering it; Thrawn, despite being out-gunned, managed to become a serious threat to the New Republic.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-05-05, 07:28 PM
I dunno...While fear is a very powerful tool, I wouldn't make it the main element for BBEGEness.
Lex Luthor isn't half as frightening as Jonathan Crane. And yet, dangerous as Scarecrow is, he's a joke compared to Lex.
Thrawn may not inspire the same fear as Vader (this might have something to do with the fact he's less trigger-happy in relation to his own staff), but good god, he gets the job done. Vader and Palpatine couldn't beat the Rebellion despite severely out-numbering it; Thrawn, despite being out-gunned, managed to become a serious threat to the New Republic.


Well i'd chalk that up to the stroy being written by different people......

Telok
2006-05-05, 07:31 PM
- Must be evil:
- Must be in charge.
- BBEGE must be scheming.
- BBEGE must be fearsome.
- BBEGE must be powerful


Ok. In alphabetical order...
Cthulhu
Ghouls
Great Race of Yith
Hastur
Mi-Go
Moon-Beasts
Nyarlathotep
Shaggai, insects from
Shub-Niggurath
Shudde M'ell
Y'golonac

Ok, ok, I'll stop with the CoC stuff. They all fufill your requirements to a greater or lesser extent, although you could argue forever about some of it.

Jelerak, whom I mentioned long ago, is perfect but utterly unknown because he comes from Zelazny's early work and was last in print in 1983. Of course a good Zelazny fan could make a case for, say, Sombriso the enchanted ring from Forever After. The horrible, evil, fallen god type bad guy of the book is totally unimpressive but you really don't want to be anywhere near Sombriso.

Various of the minions of Gyphon from Dennis L. McKiernan's Mithgar books qualify for everything but being in charge.

But one of the best fits is Flagg, a truely nasty person from the mind of Stephen King. First and best encountered in Eyes of the Dragon, and an unwelcome visitor in several later books. He's evil, happily poisoning, murdering, imprisoning, and corrupting entire families. Rules a kingdom, from behind the throne, through fear and deceit. Hatches elaborate plans to neutralize potental threats. When he has bad dreams other people die. Best of all he gets away in the end, despite the arrow sticking out of his eye.

Of course nobody will belive me but I think the absolute best BBEG in literature is one that boasted,
"When I grow up, my wings will flatten mountains. I am covered with long spiky hair. Shaped like a rainbow, I have more legs than there are trees in the forest. I eat my way through the world. When I sneeze the earth cracks open. Cities crumble. Deserts are swept into the seas. The sky itself falls down. And- I can squash elephants!"

Granted his reign of terror lasted all of an afternoon. Still it's astonishing what you can do with a dark hole, a good echo, and a scary speech.

Edit: Lord Vader is a valid butt kicker of a BBEG. Episode 3: Anakin's Teenage Hissy-Fit is in no way a reflection on Lord Vaders badness to someone who saw him first in theaters when Star Wars was new.

The_Shaman
2006-05-05, 08:00 PM
True, suffocating one of the admirals in front of the others makes a good show of force. However, for me the dread they inspire is compared when Vader comes to the construction of the second Death Star. Vader's visit is ominous. The very prospect that the emperor may come is terrifying. Besides, Vader himself says that the emperor is "less merciful" than him.

Ing
2006-05-05, 08:06 PM
yes exactly, the generals are nervious at Vader comming, but he practicly wets himself when he learns the empirer's arriving. giving Vader a break he does only kill people when he's frustrated and in the face of overwhelming incompetence....Palpatine might kill you for looking at him the wrong way, slipping up on some obscure notion of politeness or just if he feels like being an a-hole that day. he's had entire family lines snuffed out or ruined because one guy just pissed him off. pissing Vader off will get you killed, pissing palpy off will get any trace of your existence wiped out of existence.

Poison_Fish
2006-05-05, 09:30 PM
My points go to Skeletor.

However, Aizen from Bleach. That's a good villain.

For twisted individuals. If anyone has seen Basilisk. Tenzen.

The_Shaman
2006-05-05, 09:44 PM
Well, he's bad, but he doesn't quite have the dominating presence, really... Griffith from Berserk is way worse during the eclipse episodes. Talking about inhuman...

Ing
2006-05-06, 01:40 AM
Ultimite show down of ultimite destiny battle royal campaign is up and recruiting

Poison_Fish
2006-05-06, 03:16 AM
Ohh.. Griffith. Good one. That man.. utterly mean.

sun_tzu
2006-05-06, 07:10 AM
Well i'd chalk that up to the stroy being written by different people......

I chalk it up to Vader being written as reasonably competent, and Thrawn being written as a genius.
...
Huh. Is my Thrawn-advocating derailing the thread? :-/

Ing
2006-05-06, 11:41 AM
well there's the killable factor
Thawn was stabbed....dead

Vader was dismembered, thrown into a volcanic pit, set on fire, restored as a horrible cyborg, survived all that, and finally had to die from elemental bolts of pure hate hitting him directly into his brain and shutting down his life support system.

points to Vader

Jarl
2006-05-07, 04:26 AM
Zahn has stated that he'd like to do a short story where a clone of Thrawn was awakened to fight a new threat only he could defeat, and this young fellow has to deal witht he fact that he might not be as great as his template was.

-Thrawn is the only character who actually still comes of as cool when Emo. Take that, whiny Vader! (He doesn't understand me!)

sun_tzu
2006-05-07, 05:42 AM
Thrawn is the only character who actually still comes of as cool when Emo. Take that, whiny Vader! (He doesn't understand me!)

Well, Apocalymon was emo too, but I like to think he wasn't so bad as an end-of-season villain...
"I am the ultimate evil, complete with hot and cold running water.
[...]
Are you repulsed by my appearance? Don't be afraid to hurt my feelings, they're already hurt.
[...]
As I settled alone in the cold, miserable darkness of my world, I watched all of you on the other side, laughing, having fun in the light. [...] Do you think it's fair that I should have to live with all this agony?! Why should you get to laugh while I am forced to cry?! Why do you get to taste the best life has to offer while all I do is choke on its leftovers?! Answer me this: Why do you all get the pizza, while I get the crust?!
"Augh, I can't take all his metaphors!
"I will rule the world and plunge it into darkness, so that I don't have to be alone anymore in my misery! Ahahahahaha! Ahahahaha! Ha - wait a minute, what am I laughing at? I'm supposed to be depressed!"

Midos
2006-05-07, 09:11 AM
Itachi from the anima series naruto.

I mean come on- he became a fully qualified ninja at the age of 5 and became a top ranked ninja at 7 then went onto kill HIS ENTIRE FAMILY - all of whome are increadibly good ninya - just as a test of his skill. :o
p.s left his little brother alive - only one spared.

"Hate me brother, detest me - if you want to kill me then survive in a despicable way till you have the strength."
(dont know the quote word for word.)

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-07, 11:57 AM
well there's the killable factor
Thawn was stabbed....dead
But "it was so...artfully done."

Another Thrawn fan here.

Ing
2006-05-08, 05:47 AM
I don't particularly care how artfully done it was. Even if they afterwards took out his heart and made a mobile out of it with his arteries and lungs and then made origami out of the flesh from his back, even if they then painted him red, tied bells and ribons to his naughty bits, shaved his left eyebrow, framed his body and sold it as post-impresionist invisionist modern art. he still died from a stab wound.

RedMage
2006-05-08, 06:30 AM
I've said it once and I will say it again Darth Vader is the most evil badass ever fullstop end of thread

bosssmiley
2006-05-08, 07:11 AM
I've said it once and I will say it again Darth Vader is the most evil badass ever fullstop end of thread

You know, that only really works if you are one of the mighty red-texted Mods. Otherwise it's just an opinion strongly expressed. ;D

sun_tzu
2006-05-08, 08:17 AM
Another guy I forgot to mention: Quantum Crook from "Casey and Andy". It is unfortunate that this guy doesn't get more panel time (though he has recently reappeared for the final arc), but the few times we see him, he absolutely rocks: A cool-as-ice, unreasonably inteligent and competent criminal who can only be beaten (some of the times) by his alternate-universe twin. Plus, he actually plays by the Evil Overlord's list. "You and your stupid air ducts!"

RedMage
2006-05-08, 08:37 AM
You know, that only really works if you are one of the mighty red-texted Mods. Otherwise it's just an opinion strongly expressed. *;D

It was supposed to be an opinion strongly expressed

Beleriphon
2006-05-08, 03:25 PM
Darkseid, great super powerful villain. If you watch any of the newer Superman toons he even manages to turn Supes against humanity.

Lex Luthor. The guy is so amoral that he doesn't care something is wrong even if he knows its wrong.

The Joker. Totally insane, killed Robin for looking at him funny. Of course it was just Jason Todd, so we didn't really care.

Jarl
2006-05-08, 07:41 PM
Lex Luthor. The guy is so amoral that he doesn't care something is wrong even if he knows its wrong.

WRONG!
http://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=11698&stc=1

-lollaz.

Allerielle
2006-05-08, 09:27 PM
Vincent Price, because he could read a grocery list and make it sound like a threat. The man smacked of villainy, of which I have a great appreciation for.

As for cartoons, for some reason Mumm-Ra always scared the be-Jesus out of me. *snarf*

TheThan
2006-05-08, 09:39 PM
The biggest of the baddies is obviously Cobra Commander. Sure he had an annoying voice but you couldn't get rid of him, he always had a huge army of loyal soldiers, his organization stretches across the globe and his minions were top notch cool. Not to mention he came awful close to conquering the world a few times. Oh yeah and he has no face!

Lexx416
2006-05-08, 11:25 PM
I've got a couple, some I've seen on here other's I haven't.

First off is His Divine Shadow (mentioned earlier by two posters). Second is the Mayor from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He's just so gosh darn wholesome while he orders a hellfiend to slaughter your family. And last, someone I don't think anyone here has yet to mention.

The First, from BTVS (I know, another Buffy reference in a single post but..Joss Whedon is just so cool). The First is, for all those that don't know, the First and primal evil of the world. It manipulates just about everyone into doing it's bidding, slaughters most of the slayer candidates, and can take on the form of anyone dead. Only drawback to the First is that it's incorporeal, so it can't physically interact with anything on Earth, so it just screws with your mind so that you kill stuff for it.