PDA

View Full Version : The Stormlord, D&D 3.5 Base Class - PEACH isn't necessary but you can if you like



Fredaintdead
2011-09-15, 02:47 PM
Credit goes to: Me (for the idea, and the majority of the mechanics) and Lix Lorn (for fine-tuning, balance issues and little extras here and there).

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/076/e/b/Warcraft___Mountain_King_by_onetamad.jpg

"In the heart of the storm, he of the tempest sat, watching those below. He smiled as he saw them strive to survive the weather he had set against them, and when the thunder and lightning had passed, the survivors received his blessing for their strength." - Legend of Titanus

It is said that near the beginning of the lesser races, the Thunder Ancient Titanus tested mortals with his power, and as a reward for their strength and determination to survive, willingly mixed his blood with theirs. It is believed that this blood was passed down and diluted, generation after generation, and that it made the mortals strong. While little evidence of this exists, the Cult of Titanus still believe. They believe that those in which the blood of Titanus is strongest, have a natural talent for electricity, and a penchant for justice (no matter its personal meaning to them), they believe that the Stormlords, the sons and daughters of Titanus, still walk this earth.

Stormlord
HD: d12
Skill points at 1st level: (4+Int Modifier) x4
Skill points at other levels: 4+Int Modifier
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Swim (Str).
Weapon Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, and one exotic melee weapon.
Armour Proficiencies: All types of armour, but not shields.


LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial
1st
+1
+2
+2
+0Thunderstrike +1d6, Electromagnetic Affinity, Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd
+2
+3
+3
+0Inspiring Presence, Giant's Grip, Lightning Lunge +10ft (1st ability)
3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1Stormbolt 60ft
4th
+4
+4
+4
+1Thunderstrike +2d6, Tempestís Challenge, Crossblades, Lightning Lunge (2nd ability)
5th
+5
+4
+4
+1Lightning Shield d4, Detect Thoughts, Lightning Lunge +20ft
6th
+6/+1
+5
+5
+2Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Stormbolt 75ft, Lightning Lunge (3rd ability)
7th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+2Thunderstrike +3d6
8th
+8/+3
+6
+6
+2Stormstomp, Improved Crossblades
9th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+3Stormbolt 90ft
10th
+10/+5
+7
+7
+3Thunderstrike +4d6, Improved Thunderstrike, Lightning Shield d6, Lightning Lunge +30ft
11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+3Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+4Stormbolt 105ft
13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+4Thunderstrike +5d6
14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+4Hand of Justice
15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+5Greater Thunderstrike, Stormbolt 120ft, Lightning Shield d8
16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+5Thunderstrike +6d6
17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+5Wrath of Titanus
18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+6Stormbolt 135ft
19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+6Thunderstrike +7d6
20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+6Mountain Emperor, Lightning Shield d10


Abilities
Thunderstrike (Ex): While dual-wielding, the melee weapons the Stormlord is wielding deal extra electricity damage.
This damage increases by 1d6 every 3 levels beyond first.
At level 10, a Stormlord's thunderstrike damage ignores the first 10 points of resistance to electricity that the target has.
At level 15, a Stormlord's thunderstrike damage cannot be reduced by resistances, and is only reduced by 10 against creatures usually immune to electricity.
This extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. This ability also functions while unarmed, but affects only unarmed strikes.

Electromagnetic Affinity (Su, Spell-like): A Stormlord naturally feels the electricity in the air around himself, which includes the electromagnetic waves of the brain, this grants him a +4 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks. In addition, the Stormlord is capable of literally using brute force to make these waves do what the Stormlord wants, allowing them to substitute their Strength Modifier instead of the respective skill attribute modifier (i.e. Charisma) for checks involving the list of skills mentioned above.
At level 5, the Stormlord can tap into these waves to use Detect Thoughts as a Spell-like Ability once/day, and may use it once more per day per 2 levels above 5th. This ability can be used as a free action, and ignores the Verbal, Somatic and Focus components, but the Stormlord must still concentrate to extend the duration.
The Stormlord uses this ability as if he had a caster level equal to his Stormlord level, using Strength as his casting statistic. (Will Save DC 12 + Str Modifier)

Two-Weapon Fighting: At level 1, a Stormlord gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free.
At level 6, they receive the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free
At level 11, they receive the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free.

Giant's Grip (Ex): The Stormlord receives the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free at level 2.

Inspiring Presence (Ex): Being near the Stormlord inspires courage, heroics and even competence.
All allies within 60ft of the Stormlord who can see and hear him, receive several bonuses depending on the Stormlord's level
Level 2: Allies gain a +1 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, saves and skill checks.
Level 6: Allies gain a +2 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, saves and skill checks, and are immune to fear.
Level 10: Allies gain a +3 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, saves and skill checks, are immune to fear and gain +1 HD (d10).
Level 14: Allies gain a +4 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, saves and skill checks, are immune to fear, gain +2HD (d10) and a +4 dodge bonus to AC.
The only benefit the Stormlord receives from this ability is the immunity to fear, starting at Level 6.
The bonus HD only grant extra HP to allies, but still count for the purposes of spells with varying effects as a result of HD (e.g. Sleep, Power Word: Kill, etc, etc).

Lightning Lunge (Ex): The Stormlord uses the electricity that gravitates naturally to them to amplify their every movement. This class ability grants several bonuses:
- The Stormlordís base speed is increased by 10ft. At level 5, this bonus increases to 20ft, and at level 10, it increases to 30ft.
- At 4th level, the Stormlordís nervous system is enhanced, making them capable of moving both before, during (if they make multiple attacks in one round) and after their attacks, even when in heavy armour. This ability counts as Spring Attack for the purposes of prerequisites.
- At 6th level, the Stormlord is capable of redirecting the energy that makes them naturally fast to perform small bursts of massive speed. At the beginning of his action, the Stormlord may trade in their movement speed bonus granted by this ability to perform a Pounce attack, allowing them to make a charge action and follow it with a full attack action. The pounce attack takes up a full-round action.

Stormbolt (Su): A level 3 or higher Stormlord can choose, as a standard action, to throw their main-hand weapon as a bolt of lightning once per encounter.
This attack is done by making a melee attack roll against a target within 60ft.
This deals electric damage equal to 1d6 per Stormlord level, plus the Stormlord's Thunderstrike damage (the bonus damage applies only if the Stormlord was dual-wielding before the Throw).
Every 3 levels after 3rd, the range of Stormbolt increases by 15ft.
In addition, the damage caused by this ability benefits from the effects of Improved Thunderstrike and Greater Thunderstrike.
The weapon returns to the Stormlord's hands at the end of the round it was thrown.

Crossblades: An experienced Stormlord becomes incredibly used to wielding two weapons at a time, so much so that most can barely distinguish between using two weapons and one weapon. Reduce the penalties for dual-wielding by 1. In addition, the Stormlord applies 75% of his Str/Dex modifier to damage rolls with his off-hand attacks rather than 50%.
At level 8, reduce the penalties for dual-wielding by 2, and the Stormlord applies 100% of his Str/Dex modifier to damage rolls with his off-hand attacks.

Lightning Shield (Su): Those who attack the Stormlord with melee attacks take 1d4 electricity damage per Stormlord level if they hit the Stormlord.
This ability benefits from the effects of Improved Thunderstrike and Greater Thunderstrike.
Every 5 levels, the damage die of Lightning Shield increases by 1 step.
The recipient of these ďcounter-attacksĒ can make a DC 10 + 1/2 Stormlord Level + Stormlordís Con Mod Fortitude Save to take only half damage.
Lightning Shield also grants the Stormlord Electricity Resistance 5 + Con Modifier.

Tempest's Challenge (Mind-affecting, Sonic, Language-Dependent, Ex): Once per round, as a swift action, the Stormlord may issue a challenge to one enemy within 100ft who can hear the Stormlord, forcing that enemy to make a Will Save (DC 10 + Ĺ Stormlord level + Stormlord's Strength bonus)
If the enemy fails that Will Save, on their next action, the enemy must target the Stormlord with an available form of attack or harmful effect (i.e. damaging spell or a debuff spell). If the the target it out of range to use any available options, then they must move within range before making the "attack action". If the target has multiple available 'attack' options, then they get to choose which one they use.
The taunt lasts for one round (the target behaves normally next round), but can be reapplied next round (Reapplying the taunt on the same target imposes a -2 penalty to the DC).

Stormstomp (Ex): You may forgo your highest BAB main-hand attack and your highest BAB off-hand attack this round to perform a Stormstomp. This is done as a standard action.
This attacks deals sonic damage equal to the melee damage of both weapons x0.8 to all enemies within 10ft of you.
Enemies hit by this attack are stunned (DC 15 + Strength Modifier Fortitude Save to resist) for 1d6 rounds.

Hand of Justice (Su): As a standard action, the Stormlord can target anything up to 5ft/level away, and by unleashing a tendril of lightning , attempt to pull the target to the space directly 5ft in front of him.
This ability deals damage equal to your Thunderstrike bonus damage.
The target gets a Fortitude save to halve the damage (DC 10 + 1/2 Stormlord's level + Stormlordís Str Modifier), and a reflex save to avoid the movement effect (DC 10 + 1/2 Stormlord's level + Stormlordís Str Modifier).
The movement this effect causes does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
The Stormlord can freely choose to remove the damaging effect from this ability. Friendly targets can choose to automatically fail the reflex save.

Wrath of Titanus (Su): Once per encounter, the Stormlord may call directly upon their mythical ancient blood, unleashing the full fury of their inheritance upon their foes. As a standard action, the Stormlord releases a pulse of energy at their location, dealing 1d6 force damage per level to all enemies within 10ft. The Stormlord then leaps high into the air, and lands instantly in a space adjacent to any enemy within 100ft+5ft/level of the Stormlordís initial location, releasing another energy pulse and dealing the same damage again. The Stormlord may then make a melee attack against the adjacent foe with both weapons (this uses up your next attack with each weapon in terms of BAB). Enemies may make a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Stormlord level + Stormlordís Str Mod) to halve the damage from the energy pulses.

Mountain Emperor (Ex): Once per day, a level 20 Stormlord can transcend his mortal limitations by becoming conduit for the full power of the storm.
When activated, the clouds overhead darken, altering the weather, and the Stormlord receives several bonuses:
- +6 bonus to Strength and Constitution
- Thunderstrike bonus damage dice increase to d8s.
- DR 10/-
- For the duration of this state, the Stormlord cannot be incapacited or killed. (but at the end of the state any mortal wounds take their toll)
- Immunity to stun, paralysis, sleep, mind-affecting spells of any kind (i.e. Fear, charm, etc, etc), polymorph, death spells and energy drain.
- The Stormlord can use Stormbolt and Wrath of Titanus once per round instead of once per encounter and the weapon thrown during Stormbolt returns to your hand instantly.
This state lasts for 5 rounds, and instantly ends at the end of a round where the Stormlord did not attack.

Lix Lorn
2011-09-15, 02:47 PM
I like it. :smallsmile:

Fredaintdead
2011-09-15, 02:53 PM
I like it. :smallsmile:

Oh yeah, forgot about something. It's edit time folks. :smallwink:

Lord Ruby34
2011-09-15, 03:21 PM
This class is a very good one level dip for pretty much any TWF build. Dual wielding katanas FTW!

I'll need to look at it further to see if it remains viable for all twently levels.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-15, 03:46 PM
This class is a very good one level dip for pretty much any TWF build. Dual wielding katanas FTW!

I'll need to look at it further to see if it remains viable for all twently levels.

Thanks. :smallsmile: Yeah, I really like that part too. Personally I'd go with Dwarven Waraxes, but I like my Dwarves.

mootoall
2011-09-15, 04:07 PM
For Stormbolt, Stormstomp and Wrath of Titanus, you have to specify what BAB you're making the attacks at and/or which attacks you can "give up."

Pyromancer999
2011-09-15, 04:55 PM
Not bad, for a melee type.

Fera Tian
2011-09-15, 05:30 PM
There is already a prestige class called Stormlord from the Complete Divine handbook. This class looks ridiculously over powered though.

The Underlord
2011-09-15, 05:40 PM
I would change Wrath of Titanus to a certains numbers of time per day.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-15, 05:54 PM
Lie Detector needs a caster level and a DC for the saving throw. (I suggest class level and 10+1/2 class level +Int or Cha)

Inspiring Presence grants a bonus to damage rolls at level 1, but then not at any of the other levels. Was this intentional? Does the stormlord still give his allies a +1 bonus to damage rolls at the other levels? Additionally, this bonus should not be untyped. I suggest making it a morale bonus myself, that's what it seems like. The extra HD, do they grant points of BAB? Bonuses to saving throws? Skill points? Feats?

Does Stormbolt still get the bonus damage from Thunderstrike if the stormlord is not currently dual-wielding? Also, generally abilities like that give a saving throw...I would remove the melee attack roll from this ability and give it a saving throw of Reflex DC 10+1/2 class level+Int or Cha, save halves the damage.

Lightning Shield's DC is very low...I would add that 1/2 class level to it to make it more viable. Additionally, does the shield activate even if the creature attacks with a melee weapon that has reach?

The taunt definitely needs work. First of all, it needs the mind-affecting and sonic, language-dependent tags. Secondly the DC should be based on Charisma, as that is generally the ability score that influences social interaction. Third, it should probably consume a swift action instead of a free action.

Stormstomp is a bit of awkward math, but otherwise looks good.

Hand of Justice has the same low DC problem as before. Generally, most classes that have abilities that allow saves have them scale with level, so that the abilities get harder to resist over time. The formula is 10+1/2 level+ability modifier.

Wrath of Titanus is cool and useful.

I'm surprised Mountain Emperor doesn't grant immunity to electricity. Just seems appropriate. Otherwise, it's a powerful boon with a short duration. Sounds like a good capstone.

Lix Lorn
2011-09-15, 05:58 PM
Lie Detector needs a caster level and a DC for the saving throw. (I suggest class level and 10+1/2 class level +Int or Cha)
Since it mimics a spell, the DC would be as the spell.


Inspiring Presence grants a bonus to damage rolls at level 1, but then not at any of the other levels. Was this intentional? Does the stormlord still give his allies a +1 bonus to damage rolls at the other levels? Additionally, this bonus should not be untyped. I suggest making it a morale bonus myself, that's what it seems like. The extra HD, do they grant points of BAB? Bonuses to saving throws? Skill points? Feats?

Does Stormbolt still get the bonus damage from Thunderstrike if the stormlord is not currently dual-wielding? Also, generally abilities like that give a saving throw...I would remove the melee attack roll from this ability and give it a saving throw of Reflex DC 10+1/2 class level+Int or Cha, save halves the damage.

Lightning Shield's DC is very low...I would add that 1/2 class level to it to make it more viable. Additionally, does the shield activate even if the creature attacks with a melee weapon that has reach?

The taunt definitely needs work. First of all, it needs the mind-affecting and sonic, language-dependent tags. Secondly the DC should be based on Charisma, as that is generally the ability score that influences social interaction. Third, it should probably consume a swift action instead of a free action.

Hand of Justice has the same low DC problem as before. Generally, most classes that have abilities that allow saves have them scale with level, so that the abilities get harder to resist over time. The formula is 10+1/2 level+ability modifier.

I'm surprised Mountain Emperor doesn't grant immunity to electricity. Just seems appropriate. Otherwise, it's a powerful boon with a short duration. Sounds like a good capstone.
Rest are good points.
I will say that he specifically wants to NOT use mental stats though. It's a physical class, that's why abilities are Con and Str based.

Dralnu
2011-09-15, 09:38 PM
Level 1 is way too frontloaded and powerful. This is problematic in regards to dips and low-level play. At level 1 with full BAB, d12 hp, any armor, TWF and Oversized TWF for free, +1d6 damage on all attacks, and 1 free exotic weapon, you're noticeably outclassing Warblades, even making Wizards blush. I recommend distributing some abilities throughout the first few levels.

Inspiring Presence /lol's at Bards, but I guess that's ok. Maybe bring it more in line with bards?


The Stormlord himself benefits very little from this presence, but still gains the immunity to fear from 6th level and onwards.

Must specify. You mean he gets none of the attack / damage / etc bonuses but fear immunity?

Stombolt:
You should specify that it's a standard action. Also, put the Ex / Sp / Su tags on your abilities.

Tempest's Challenge:
A free action Save-or-Die per round against casters and people who would have to wade through horrible things to get to you? Ummm...

Go look at the Knight class in PHB2. They do this ability, except it's more balanced. I'd use it as a starting point.


Rest of it looks good. Very cool class!

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-15, 09:50 PM
Since it mimics a spell, the DC would be as the spell.


"As the spell" doesn't tell us which stat applies to the DC.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 10:01 AM
For Stormbolt, Stormstomp and Wrath of Titanus, you have to specify what BAB you're making the attacks at and/or which attacks you can "give up."

Stormbolt doesn't use up an attack, the drawback is that you don't have your main hand weapon for a round. It's now clarified as a standard action though.
Stormstomp doesn't require an attack roll, but now uses up your highest BAB attack with each weapon (so, if you're a level 11 Stormlord, you'd use up your +11 BAB mainhand attack and offhand attack, and still have your +6/+1 main hand attacks and your +6/+1 off hand attack).
Wrath of Titanus doesn't require an attack roll, and it doesn't require you to give up any attacks other than one main-hand and one off-hand attack at the end, which uses the next main-hand and off-hand attack you would normally use.


I would change Wrath of Titanus to a certains numbers of time per day.

Wrath of Titanus is simply Dimension Door with two very short-range Chain-Lightning spells (so a Level 4 spell + a Level 6 spell + a Level 6 spell), I personally think once an encounter is fine. *shrugs* Sorry, but that's staying the same.


Lie Detector needs a caster level and a DC for the saving throw. (I suggest class level and 10+1/2 class level +Int or Cha)

Inspiring Presence grants a bonus to damage rolls at level 1, but then not at any of the other levels. Was this intentional? Does the stormlord still give his allies a +1 bonus to damage rolls at the other levels? Additionally, this bonus should not be untyped. I suggest making it a morale bonus myself, that's what it seems like. The extra HD, do they grant points of BAB? Bonuses to saving throws? Skill points? Feats?

Does Stormbolt still get the bonus damage from Thunderstrike if the stormlord is not currently dual-wielding? Also, generally abilities like that give a saving throw...I would remove the melee attack roll from this ability and give it a saving throw of Reflex DC 10+1/2 class level+Int or Cha, save halves the damage.

Lightning Shield's DC is very low...I would add that 1/2 class level to it to make it more viable. Additionally, does the shield activate even if the creature attacks with a melee weapon that has reach?

The taunt definitely needs work. First of all, it needs the mind-affecting and sonic, language-dependent tags. Secondly the DC should be based on Charisma, as that is generally the ability score that influences social interaction. Third, it should probably consume a swift action instead of a free action.

Stormstomp is a bit of awkward math, but otherwise looks good.

Hand of Justice has the same low DC problem as before. Generally, most classes that have abilities that allow saves have them scale with level, so that the abilities get harder to resist over time. The formula is 10+1/2 level+ability modifier.

Wrath of Titanus is cool and useful.

I'm surprised Mountain Emperor doesn't grant immunity to electricity. Just seems appropriate. Otherwise, it's a powerful boon with a short duration. Sounds like a good capstone.

1. Fair enough. Caster level is now equal to Stormlord level, using Strength as the casting stat.
2. As for the damage buff to inspiring presence, that's a typo and I've taken care of it (the damage buff is now granted at all levels). I'll make it a morale bonus now which is fair. The extra HD only grant HP, and I've clarified that.
3. Lightning shield DC will be changed. And yes, it activates against all melee attacks that hit the Stormlord.
4. Not changing the stat on Tempest's Challenge. Just no. Lix has already said that this is a physical class, and I don't intend to repeat what she's already said. As for the action and the tags, fair enough, taken care of.
5. Hand of Justice DC changed.
6. Thanks. :) It was the last ability to be added.
7. Well, the Stormlord already gets 5 + Con Modifier Electricity resistance from Lightning Shield. I'm glad you like it though.


Level 1 is way too frontloaded and powerful. This is problematic in regards to dips and low-level play. At level 1 with full BAB, d12 hp, any armor, TWF and Oversized TWF for free, +1d6 damage on all attacks, and 1 free exotic weapon, you're noticeably outclassing Warblades, even making Wizards blush. I recommend distributing some abilities throughout the first few levels.

Inspiring Presence /lol's at Bards, but I guess that's ok. Maybe bring it more in line with bards?



Must specify. You mean he gets none of the attack / damage / etc bonuses but fear immunity?

Stombolt:
You should specify that it's a standard action. Also, put the Ex / Sp / Su tags on your abilities.

Tempest's Challenge:
A free action Save-or-Die per round against casters and people who would have to wade through horrible things to get to you? Ummm...

Go look at the Knight class in PHB2. They do this ability, except it's more balanced. I'd use it as a starting point.


Rest of it looks good. Very cool class!

1. Understood, I can see where you're coming from. Giant's Grip has been moved to Level 2. Considering doing the same with Lie Detector, but most likely not.
2. Eh, I'm kind of happy with Inspiring Presnce as is, but thanks for the feedback.
3. Specified now. The Stormlord only gets the Fear immunity from Inspiring Presence.
4. Tempest's Challenge is now a swift-action, and it's actual effect takes place on the target's next action. Still, I have no personal way of getting access to PHB2 unless there's a PDF available. So any ideas you could give me on balancing it any further would be alright.

Will answer more questions in a future post.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 10:04 AM
There is already a prestige class called Stormlord from the Complete Divine handbook. This class looks ridiculously over powered though.

You have your opinion and I have mine, let's not get into an argument please (or alternatively, send me a PM and we'll discuss this like adults).


Not bad, for a melee type.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

Hanuman
2011-09-16, 11:33 AM
This class is pretty obvious based off paladin, but the mechanics indicate a warblade mixed with a scout, replacing skirm with thunder.
WB + Scout, Pal Reference == HD10

Lie Detector isn't a lie detector, it's telepathy. A modified Zone of Truth would fit better if you want an anti-lie ability, and as Pal2 spell it works nice as the core comparison.

I'm really liking the flavor of creating a line of electricity between the 2 metal weapons, om nom nom. :O DELICIOUS.

Inspiring presence? Storm Lord is a full BAB, compare this class feature to the Marshal to find a benchmark on how to ratio the effect per level.

Other than that, pretty solid! Find a picture?

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 12:26 PM
This class is pretty obvious based off paladin, but the mechanics indicate a warblade mixed with a scout, replacing skirm with thunder.
WB + Scout, Pal Reference == HD10

Lie Detector isn't a lie detector, it's telepathy. A modified Zone of Truth would fit better if you want an anti-lie ability, and as Pal2 spell it works nice as the core comparison.

I'm really liking the flavor of creating a line of electricity between the 2 metal weapons, om nom nom. :O DELICIOUS.

Inspiring presence? Storm Lord is a full BAB, compare this class feature to the Marshal to find a benchmark on how to ratio the effect per level.

Other than that, pretty solid! Find a picture?

Actually, it's not based off of Paladin at all, if anything, it's based off of the Mountain King hero in Warcraft III. The HD is staying at d12 because I consider this guy to be a tanky master of dual wielding, not a Paladin. Because to be honest, Paladin never once crossed my mind while this was being designed. Police Officer did (hence the justice aspect), but not Paladin.

As for Lie Detector, it's there because I felt that 1. It needed an ability beyond combat, and 2. It fits fine with the idea of electricity and justice in a neat little package. I do see your point, but Zone of Truth (even modified) just feels wrong to me as opposed to the Detect Thoughts SLA, I suppose I could change it to Mind Reader or something like that rather than Lie Detector.

The Stormlord gets no personal benefit from his Inspiring Presence other than immunity to fear. It's there to help other members of the party in and out of combat, at Level 14, it grants:
+4 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, saves and skill checks, are immune to fear, gain +2HD (d10) and a +4 dodge bonus to AC.
So, 11 HP, +4 AB, AC, Damage, Saves and Skill Checks. Doesn't seem like a fat lot to me, but maybe my perception is buggy. Albeit that's at a permanent duration. So perhaps I could make it a brief flare of inspiration from the Stormlord's presence that can be used X times a day. Would that be something you'd recommend?

Thanks for the input anyway, and I'm glad you like it. As for pictures, gimme a second to google search and I'll add it in on the next edit. :)

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 12:53 PM
Tempest's Challenge has been altered for balance reasons.

Tempest's Challenge (Mind-affecting, Sonic, Language-Dependent, Ex): Once per round, as a swift action, the Stormlord may issue a challenge to one enemy within 100ft who can hear the Stormlord, forcing that enemy to make a Will Save (DC 10 + Ĺ Stormlord level + Stormlord's Strength bonus)
If the enemy fails that Will Save, on their next action, the enemy must target the Stormlord with an available form of attack or harmful effect (i.e. damaging spell or a debuff spell). If the the target it out of range to use any available options, then they must move within range before making the "attack action". If the target has multiple available 'attack' options, then they get to choose which one they use.
The taunt lasts for one round (the target behaves normally next round), but can be reapplied next round (Reapplying the taunt on the same target imposes a -2 penalty to the DC).

So, instead of it forcing a melee attack, it forces a harmful action against the Stormlord. Making it less powerful against Casters and Archers, as it's less likely to pull them through nasty stuff.
(examples will not be included in the main post)
Example 1:
Grim Thunderbeard uses Tempest's Challenge on a Troll 30ft away. Since the Troll is out of range to use its Claw attack, it has to move 30ft towards the Stormlord, and then attacks using a single Claw attack.

Example 2:
Grim Thunderbeard uses Tempest's Challenge on an enemy Rogue with a Throwing Dagger 30ft away, the Rogue fails his save, and can then choose to either move 20ft to throw his dagger at Thunderbeard, or move 30ft and make a melee combat attack.

Example 3:
Thunderbeard uses Tempest's Challenge on an enemy Wizard adjacent to him, the Wizard fails their save and has the choice to do one of the following as the "taunted attack": Fireball or Touch of Idiocy. Deciding that he would like to avoid the explosion of a Fireball, the Wizard casts Touch of Idiocy on Grim Thunderbeard.

That sounds fair overall I think. The original idea of the taunt was to combo it in with Lightning Shield to make that more effective, but considering the initial top-end damage for that was 3d8 (on any melee attack) and now it's 20d10 (on hit), well, it seems a little unbalanced to me now. Besides, these changes stop casters and archers getting dragged through set-up Cloudkills and Prismatic Spheres, which I guess was the biggest balance worry for most.

Hanuman
2011-09-16, 01:57 PM
Actually, it's not based off of Paladin at all, if anything, it's based off of the Mountain King hero in Warcraft III. The HD is staying at d12 because I consider this guy to be a tanky master of dual wielding, not a Paladin. Because to be honest, Paladin never once crossed my mind while this was being designed. Police Officer did (hence the justice aspect), but not Paladin.
Of course it's not flavor based off paladin, but for making the mechanics of any homebrew class you have to start with an established reference.

If I understand your reference you actually mean it to be more based off Barbarian, which means low saves, high HD, max BAB and 4SKP.

What can we tell about your class?
HD12
Saves 2 good
SKP4
BestBAB
Skirm (Elemental, no movement required)

Let's start at HD, 12 indicates 1 good save, that's the standard balance (for most HD12 classes).
4 skillpoints and full BAB is fair, and good for this flavor, it's aligned with barbarian.
The skirm implies it's of a lower HD, you could make it HD10 and raise one of the saves.

The marshal ability is interesting but marshals are HD8, bards even lower.



As for Lie Detector, it's there because I felt that 1. It needed an ability beyond combat, and 2. It fits fine with the idea of electricity and justice in a neat little package. I do see your point, but Zone of Truth (even modified) just feels wrong to me as opposed to the Detect Thoughts SLA, I suppose I could change it to Mind Reader or something like that rather than Lie Detector.
It really depends on if you want your Storm Lord players using the ability as a subtle and sneaky power or a commanding and dominating force. You could make detect throughts altered to act as a supernatural bonus to Sense Motive, or whatever, but its all on flavor.


The Stormlord gets no personal benefit from his Inspiring Presence other than immunity to fear. It's there to help other members of the party in and out of combat, at Level 14, it grants:
+4 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, saves and skill checks, are immune to fear, gain +2HD (d10) and a +4 dodge bonus to AC.
So, 11 HP, +4 AB, AC, Damage, Saves and Skill Checks. Doesn't seem like a fat lot to me, but maybe my perception is buggy. Albeit that's at a permanent duration. So perhaps I could make it a brief flare of inspiration from the Stormlord's presence that can be used X times a day. Would that be something you'd recommend?
A fat lot compared to what? Marshal is d8 and has this rate:
Minor (+1/Cha)
Major (+1/7level (+1)

Level 14 is the +3 mark for marshal so this'll be a favorable comparison.
Storm Rider14 has:
2 Simultaneous Major Auras
Several Minor Auras
These auras assume a mashal of 20th level with 18 charisma.

Lix Lorn
2011-09-16, 02:19 PM
I think you're starting with a flawed assumption here. IIRC, Barbarian is tier what, 4? 5? What I'm saying is they kinda suck.
This is aimed at 3ish, it SHOULD be explicitly better.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 02:28 PM
Of course it's not flavor based off paladin, but for making the mechanics of any homebrew class you have to start with an established reference.

If I understand your reference you actually mean it to be more based off Barbarian, which means low saves, high HD, max BAB and 4SKP.

What can we tell about your class?
HD12
Saves 2 good
SKP4
BestBAB
Skirm (Elemental, no movement required)

Let's start at HD, 12 indicates 1 good save, that's the standard balance (for most HD12 classes).
4 skillpoints and full BAB is fair, and good for this flavor, it's aligned with barbarian.
The skirm implies it's of a lower HD, you could make it HD10 and raise one of the saves.

The marshal ability is interesting but marshals are HD8, bards even lower.


It really depends on if you want your Storm Lord players using the ability as a subtle and sneaky power or a commanding and dominating force. You could make detect throughts altered to act as a supernatural bonus to Sense Motive, or whatever, but its all on flavor.


A fat lot compared to what? Marshal is d8 and has this rate:
Minor (+1/Cha)
Major (+1/7level (+1)

Level 14 is the +3 mark for marshal so this'll be a favorable comparison.
Storm Rider14 has:
2 Simultaneous Major Auras
Several Minor Auras
These auras assume a mashal of 20th level with 18 charisma.

I did not think of any other classes for any reference of any kind when I made this. I had an idea, and added stuff in for it that I thought seemed cool. Sure, you can identify elements of other classes with it. Inspiring Presence looks like Bardic Music, Thunderstrike looks like Smite Evil, Mountain Emperor functions like rage in a way, he has full BAB and d12 HD, etc, etc, it's got the Two-Weapon fighting bonus feats just like Rangers, etc, etc, but in the end, I'd like to think that on a conscious level, this was an original class. There was no BASIS for mechanics. I went with dual-wielding and lightning and ran with them.
You are closer however by saying Barbarian, but Lix is right in saying that this isn't designed to be "as good as" Barbarian and Marshall in Tier 4, it's designed to be sitting comfortably in Tier 3.
Besides, you keep comparing Inspiring Presence to Marshall auras, when it's really more like bardic music, hence my suggestion to make it an activated ability for X rounds per day, or X rounds per use X times per day.

As for Lie Detector, well, I think it's staying the same. I'll change the name to Thought Detector or Electromagnetic Affinity.

mootoall
2011-09-16, 02:42 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't dream of comparing this to Paladin or Marshall. Why would anyone base a class of those unless it's a fix? No, this is more comparable to a Crusader, and its abilities *about*match up with maneuvers. Edit: In fact, it wouldn't be amiss to give it some sort of delayed maneuver progression from Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit and Tiger Claw.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 02:54 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't dream of comparing this to Paladin or Marshall. Why would anyone base a class of those unless it's a fix? No, this is more comparable to a Crusader, and its abilities *about*match up with maneuvers. Edit: In fact, it wouldn't be amiss to give it some sort of delayed maneuver progression from Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit and Tiger Claw.

My idea was to make a viable melee class without maneuvers. And I'm glad I succeeded in making one that doesn't specifically need them to succeed. :smallsmile:
And thanks. :smallsmile:

mootoall
2011-09-16, 03:18 PM
Welllllll, if I were optimizing this I'd probably slap some TC maneuvers on with Martial Study, but yeah, it doesn't need it as is.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 03:22 PM
Welllllll, if I were optimizing this I'd probably slap some TC maneuvers on with Martial Study, but yeah, it doesn't need it as is.

*a robot appears* MISSION COMPLETE!

Well, I'd leave that up to player and DM discretion, but adding in maneuevers would be fine to me. Just don't ask me to add it in myself (I'm not ToB's biggest fan, but I do appreciate the power boost it gives the martial classes). :smallsmile:

Hanuman
2011-09-16, 04:59 PM
I think you're starting with a flawed assumption here. IIRC, Barbarian is tier what, 4? 5? What I'm saying is they kinda suck.
This is aimed at 3ish, it SHOULD be explicitly better.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.
Are you starting with a flawed assumption that a non maneuver non cast non skillpoint HD12 full BAB class that revolves around hitting people with 2 lightning weapons is not a one-track build? :smallsmile:


I did not think of any other classes for any reference of any kind when I made this. I had an idea, and added stuff in for it that I thought seemed cool. Sure, you can identify elements of other classes with it. Inspiring Presence looks like Bardic Music, Thunderstrike looks like Smite Evil, Mountain Emperor functions like rage in a way, he has full BAB and d12 HD, etc, etc, it's got the Two-Weapon fighting bonus feats just like Rangers, etc, etc, but in the end, I'd like to think that on a conscious level, this was an original class. There was no BASIS for mechanics. I went with dual-wielding and lightning and ran with them.
You are closer however by saying Barbarian, but Lix is right in saying that this isn't designed to be "as good as" Barbarian and Marshall in Tier 4, it's designed to be sitting comfortably in Tier 3.
Besides, you keep comparing Inspiring Presence to Marshall auras, when it's really more like bardic music, hence my suggestion to make it an activated ability for X rounds per day, or X rounds per use X times per day.

As for Lie Detector, well, I think it's staying the same. I'll change the name to Thought Detector or Electromagnetic Affinity.
Well Thunderstrike probably fits skirmish best, as it's a spammed effect.

Bardic music without resorting to specific powergaming builds does not actually grant anything close to what you suggested, and giving it that will not raise it's tier capacity. Tier is designed to measure the number of tasks it doesn't fail at and Marshal does not fail at it's role, it just has a limited number of them.


Yeah, I wouldn't dream of comparing this to Paladin or Marshall. Why would anyone base a class of those unless it's a fix? No, this is more comparable to a Crusader, and its abilities *about*match up with maneuvers. Edit: In fact, it wouldn't be amiss to give it some sort of delayed maneuver progression from Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit and Tiger Claw.
I'm not saying marshal isn't lacking, it does need a few more tricks to raise its utility to T3.
I'm saying that adding several times the power to an existing ability does not balance a class, if it did then balancing the monk out of T5 would be as simple as giving it a +5 to attack and tripling it's damage.

Lix Lorn
2011-09-16, 05:10 PM
Are you starting with a flawed assumption that a non maneuver non cast non skillpoint HD12 full BAB class that revolves around hitting people with 2 lightning weapons is not a one-track build? :smallsmile:
That's why it has detect thoughts and inspiring presence. So it can do things other than hit.

You're making an argument that it's tier 4 cause it does nothing but fight, and then another argument that inspiring presence doesn't boost it just by being stronger than a marshal. Which it doesn't. It would boost it by not being a way to hit things, but to help others do so.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-16, 05:14 PM
Are you starting with a flawed assumption that a non maneuver non cast non skillpoint HD12 full BAB class that revolves around hitting people with 2 lightning weapons is not a one-track build? :smallsmile:


Well Thunderstrike probably fits skirmish best, as it's a spammed effect.

Bardic music without resorting to specific powergaming builds does not actually grant anything close to what you suggested, and giving it that will not raise it's tier capacity. Tier is designed to measure the number of tasks it doesn't fail at and Marshal does not fail at it's role, it just has a limited number of them.


I'm not saying marshal isn't lacking, it does need a few more tricks to raise its utility to T3.
I'm saying that adding several times the power to an existing ability does not balance a class, if it did then balancing the monk out of T5 would be as simple as giving it a +5 to attack and tripling it's damage.

The initial idea was to add more damage, simply because dual-wield dealt a loss less damage than the Two-handed weapon alternative. However, there are more features to Stormlord than just attack damage when you look at it.
This class can: Attack in melee, move rather quickly around the battlefield in a pinch (Wrath of Titanus), avert attacks from party members (Tempest's Challenge), AoE Stun and control the battlefield to an extent (Hand of Justice).

Inspiring Presence is there to give an out of combat benefit and an in-combat benefit at the same time, and as both me and Lix have said, it's there to help the rest of the party. So rather than continue this back-and-forth, what do you think would make this ability balanced? Just tell me.

Hanuman
2011-09-16, 06:04 PM
That's why it has detect thoughts and inspiring presence. So it can do things other than hit.

You're making an argument that it's tier 4 cause it does nothing but fight, and then another argument that inspiring presence doesn't boost it just by being stronger than a marshal. Which it doesn't. It would boost it by not being a way to hit things, but to help others do so.

Allies gain a +2 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, saves and skill checks, and are immune to fear.

Ok, assuming pointbuy and a melee marshal, pointbuy is going to take a lot away from combat with the cha--

It also doesn't allow both attack and damage, and all saves and attribute skill checks are separated into nonstackable bonuses.

Though now that I re-read I thought the minor aura effects were STR based and the major effects fixed to level.

The bonus for the minor aura effects, individually aren't too bad but together (10 minor auras) is just a biiiit much, especially if you have a pixie marshal cohort double-boosting the effects. :smallsmile:

As for granting to yourself vs. others... I think boosting others is far more powerful, thats the difference between a spell and a mass spell on all your other team mates.

mootoall
2011-09-16, 07:50 PM
This class has: battlefield control, damage potential, survivability, buffing and out of combat utility, without breaking the game. Just like the Warblade and Crusader. Fits the bill if you ask me!

Metahuman1
2011-09-16, 08:25 PM
I want to play this class now.

Although, I see three things I'd point out in an attempt to be constructive.

1: You've got some movement ability's, but it might not hurt to do something similar to travel devotion where you can swift action move so that you can move and full attack every round. Or at least get Pounce worked in there.

2: Maybe, at say levels five and ten, or five and fifteen or something, you should reduced the Penalty's for TWF by 1, and have an ability thrown in there that let's you use your full ability score mod (Str, Dex, what ever the character is using.) too there off hand attacks.

3: Have you considered the idea of variants locked into different elements for there theme? Just a though.

Hanuman
2011-09-16, 09:24 PM
I want to play this class now.

Although, I see three things I'd point out in an attempt to be constructive.

1: You've got some movement ability's, but it might not hurt to do something similar to travel devotion where you can swift action move so that you can move and full attack every round. Or at least get Pounce worked in there.

2: Maybe, at say levels five and ten, or five and fifteen or something, you should reduced the Penalty's for TWF by 1, and have an ability thrown in there that let's you use your full ability score mod (Str, Dex, what ever the character is using.) too there off hand attacks.

3: Have you considered the idea of variants locked into different elements for there theme? Just a though.

Have to agree, at high level you're going to be missing a LOT with TWF.

Daverin
2011-09-17, 11:59 AM
No real comments on balance, but I will say I love the concept. Mountain kings from War3 were really cool.

Worth noting is that, in case you want to change the fluff in your own campaign, Heironeous actually is associated with storms and lightning. So, yeah, good job on giving an easy alternative to integrate! :smallbiggrin:

Fredaintdead
2011-09-18, 10:06 AM
I want to play this class now.

Although, I see three things I'd point out in an attempt to be constructive.

1: You've got some movement ability's, but it might not hurt to do something similar to travel devotion where you can swift action move so that you can move and full attack every round. Or at least get Pounce worked in there.

2: Maybe, at say levels five and ten, or five and fifteen or something, you should reduced the Penalty's for TWF by 1, and have an ability thrown in there that let's you use your full ability score mod (Str, Dex, what ever the character is using.) too there off hand attacks.

3: Have you considered the idea of variants locked into different elements for there theme? Just a though.

Well, I'm glad it's left such a good impression on you, and thank you for your contribution.

1. Yeah, when I was adding in the finishing touches, mobility was a key concern for me, but I couldn't really justify anything beyond what it already had after Wrath of Titanus. Fast Movement could be done, but since I tend to see this guy as wearing Full-Plate (of course, Stormlord's can wear whatever armour they like), it didn't really fit.

2 and 3. Those are both excellent ideas and I'll give them a proper mulling over.
I'd stay tuned for variants if I get any ideas, although if anyone else wanted to contribute, I'd be perfectly happy with them doing that. This was just something fun I wanted to do, so anyone who wants to make their own version or variant is fine by me.


No real comments on balance, but I will say I love the concept. Mountain kings from War3 were really cool.

Worth noting is that, in case you want to change the fluff in your own campaign, Heironeous actually is associated with storms and lightning. So, yeah, good job on giving an easy alternative to integrate! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, I'm glad you like it.
And thanks for letting me know about Heironeous being a storm god too. The fluff I've put down for this guy is just a baseline, I'll leave it up to player and DM discretion to change whatever they like (e.g. turn the Stormlord into a religious icon imbued by gods, after all, I consider Titanus to be god-like in a sense).

Metahuman1
2011-09-18, 01:05 PM
Well, I'm glad it's left such a good impression on you, and thank you for your contribution.

1. Yeah, when I was adding in the finishing touches, mobility was a key concern for me, but I couldn't really justify anything beyond what it already had after Wrath of Titanus. Fast Movement could be done, but since I tend to see this guy as wearing Full-Plate (of course, Stormlord's can wear whatever armour they like), it didn't really fit.

2 and 3. Those are both excellent ideas and I'll give them a proper mulling over.
I'd stay tuned for variants if I get any ideas, although if anyone else wanted to contribute, I'd be perfectly happy with them doing that. This was just something fun I wanted to do, so anyone who wants to make their own version or variant is fine by me.



Thanks, I'm glad you like it.
And thanks for letting me know about Heironeous being a storm god too. The fluff I've put down for this guy is just a baseline, I'll leave it up to player and DM discretion to change whatever they like (e.g. turn the Stormlord into a religious icon imbued by gods, after all, I consider Titanus to be god-like in a sense).

What about this. Give it a class feature, let's call it thunder step or lighting Lung or something like that. The class feature is something you gain use of over the course of your career. By the end of 20 lvls, you've picked up five uses. Each use lasts, let's say either 10 or 20 rounds, your call. The fluff is that your using a burst of Thunder/Lighting too propel yourself forward, allowing you to move with greater speed and more efficiency. The mechanics are it let's you move up too your speed as a swift action. That way, most of the time, you can still full attack, and it fits the fluff.

Thanks, and I'm very glad I could be of help even if you don't take the suggestions/ideas. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Fredaintdead
2011-09-18, 01:13 PM
What about this. Give it a class feature, let's call it thunder step or lighting Lung or something like that. The class feature is something you gain use of over the course of your career. By the end of 20 lvls, you've picked up five uses. Each use lasts, let's say either 10 or 20 rounds, your call. The fluff is that your using a burst of Thunder/Lighting too propel yourself forward, allowing you to move with greater speed and more efficiency. The mechanics are it let's you move up too your speed as a swift action. That way, most of the time, you can still full attack, and it fits the fluff.

Thanks, and I'm very glad I could be of help even if you don't take the suggestions/ideas. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Now that's a damn good idea.
I did have the idea of giving the Stormlord a passive speed boost that they could trade in for a pounce attack. The idea being that they can trade a large boost to their mobility for the ability to move and make a full attack each round.
But that just shoots it out of the water (couldn't think of a way to balance it properly, as lower speed races had a much larger difference between their Pounce-speed and their amplified-speed, hence making their choice much more difficult).
I'm going to give it a mulling over anyway, and see what happens. :smallsmile:

Metahuman1
2011-09-18, 01:21 PM
Well, I'm glad it's left such a good impression on you, and thank you for your contribution.

1. Yeah, when I was adding in the finishing touches, mobility was a key concern for me, but I couldn't really justify anything beyond what it already had after Wrath of Titanus. Fast Movement could be done, but since I tend to see this guy as wearing Full-Plate (of course, Stormlord's can wear whatever armour they like), it didn't really fit.

2 and 3. Those are both excellent ideas and I'll give them a proper mulling over.
I'd stay tuned for variants if I get any ideas, although if anyone else wanted to contribute, I'd be perfectly happy with them doing that. This was just something fun I wanted to do, so anyone who wants to make their own version or variant is fine by me.



Thanks, I'm glad you like it.
And thanks for letting me know about Heironeous being a storm god too. The fluff I've put down for this guy is just a baseline, I'll leave it up to player and DM discretion to change whatever they like (e.g. turn the Stormlord into a religious icon imbued by gods, after all, I consider Titanus to be god-like in a sense).


Now that's a damn good idea.
I did have the idea of giving the Stormlord a passive speed boost that they could trade in for a pounce attack. The idea being that they can trade a large boost to their mobility for the ability to move and make a full attack each round.
But that just shoots it out of the water (couldn't think of a way to balance it properly, as lower speed races had a much larger difference between their Pounce-speed and their amplified-speed, hence making their choice much more difficult).
I'm going to give it a mulling over anyway, and see what happens. :smallsmile:

Giving them 20 or 30ft of Fast Movement over there Career isn't actually a bad idea. There faster, when not buffed. When Buffed with Hastes, which the whole party will be after level eight or nine, then there just as fast as there base race + Haste, since Haste and Fast Movement don't generally stack, and Haste pretty much always trumps Fast movement for the amount of speed it grants. (This is a Key problem with Players Handbook Monk, Combined with the fact that it's other signature ability is a full attack action and they don't have anything like pounce or Travel devotion to move and full attack in a round.) Then you let them Trade that Fast Movement on there Turn for a Pounce, and combine it with my last Suggestion.

Now you can charge, full attack, move back. Then Move back, Charge, back up again next turn. Unless the opponent has Pounce or Travel devotion or levels in this class or insane reach, he won't be able to get more then 1 melee attack a round in on you. But of course there's enough Monsters with one of those things or with a means of distance attack that it's nice but not game breaking, particularly at higher levels.

What do you think?

Fredaintdead
2011-09-18, 01:52 PM
Giving them 20 or 30ft of Fast Movement over there Career isn't actually a bad idea. There faster, when not buffed. When Buffed with Hastes, which the whole party will be after level eight or nine, then there just as fast as there base race + Haste, since Haste and Fast Movement don't generally stack, and Haste pretty much always trumps Fast movement for the amount of speed it grants. (This is a Key problem with Players Handbook Monk, Combined with the fact that it's other signature ability is a full attack action and they don't have anything like pounce or Travel devotion to move and full attack in a round.) Then you let them Trade that Fast Movement on there Turn for a Pounce, and combine it with my last Suggestion.

Now you can charge, full attack, move back. Then Move back, Charge, back up again next turn. Unless the opponent has Pounce or Travel devotion or levels in this class or insane reach, he won't be able to get more then 1 melee attack a round in on you. But of course there's enough Monsters with one of those things or with a means of distance attack that it's nice but not game breaking, particularly at higher levels.

What do you think?

I think that's a damn good idea. The original plan was to grant them Spring Attack as a free bonus feat as well and allow it to be used in heavy armour, which this suggestion of yours pretty much does anyway. I'll get working on how I'm going to word it, and if all goes well, it should be in the main entry by tomorrow. Thanks for all your help.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-18, 02:11 PM
Giving them 20 or 30ft of Fast Movement over there Career isn't actually a bad idea. There faster, when not buffed. When Buffed with Hastes, which the whole party will be after level eight or nine, then there just as fast as there base race + Haste, since Haste and Fast Movement don't generally stack, and Haste pretty much always trumps Fast movement for the amount of speed it grants. (This is a Key problem with Players Handbook Monk, Combined with the fact that it's other signature ability is a full attack action and they don't have anything like pounce or Travel devotion to move and full attack in a round.) Then you let them Trade that Fast Movement on there Turn for a Pounce, and combine it with my last Suggestion.

Now you can charge, full attack, move back. Then Move back, Charge, back up again next turn. Unless the opponent has Pounce or Travel devotion or levels in this class or insane reach, he won't be able to get more then 1 melee attack a round in on you. But of course there's enough Monsters with one of those things or with a means of distance attack that it's nice but not game breaking, particularly at higher levels.

What do you think?

Since the you helped create this ability, I thought you should see the finished product of the mobility solution before it gets edited in. And it gives everyone else a chance to PEACH without having to re-read the entire OP.

Lightning Lunge (Ex): The Stormlord uses the electricity that gravitates naturally to them to amplify their every movement. This class ability grants several bonuses:
- The Stormlordís base speed is increased by 10ft. At level 5, this bonus increases to 20ft, and at level 10, it increases to 30ft.
- At 4th level, the Stormlordís nervous system is enhanced, making them capable of moving both before, during (if they make multiple attacks in one round) and after their attacks, even when in heavy armour.
- At 6th level, the Stormlord is capable of redirecting the energy that makes them naturally fast to perform small bursts of massive speed. At the beginning of his action, the Stormlord may trade in their movement speed bonus granted by this ability to perform a Pounce attack, allowing them to make a charge action and follow it with a full attack action. The pounce attack takes up a full-round action.

There it is. The over-the-top-named "Lightning Lunge". :smallbiggrin:

Metahuman1
2011-09-18, 02:34 PM
Since the you helped create this ability, I thought you should see the finished product of the mobility solution before it gets edited in. And it gives everyone else a chance to PEACH without having to re-read the entire OP.

Lightning Lunge (Ex): The Stormlord uses the electricity that gravitates naturally to them to amplify their every movement. This class ability grants several bonuses:
- The Stormlordís base speed is increased by 10ft. At level 5, this bonus increases to 20ft, and at level 10, it increases to 30ft.
- At 4th level, the Stormlordís nervous system is enhanced, making them capable of moving both before, during (if they make multiple attacks in one round) and after their attacks, even when in heavy armour.
- At 6th level, the Stormlord is capable of redirecting the energy that makes them naturally fast to perform small bursts of massive speed. At the beginning of his action, the Stormlord may trade in their movement speed bonus granted by this ability to perform a Pounce attack, allowing them to make a charge action and follow it with a full attack action. The pounce attack takes up a full-round action.

There it is. The over-the-top-named "Lightning Lunge". :smallbiggrin:

This, This is Win.

unosarta
2011-09-18, 02:35 PM
This class is most solidly a Tier 4 class, focused almost entirely on combat, with a skill list that is kind of compressed for out of combat reliability. Having in combat flexibility isn't the point, having both in combat and out of combat flexibility is what is necessary for Tier 3. The Crusader, Warblade, and Swordsage accomplish this by having nice, widely accentuated skill lists, extra skill points, encouragement to take and use those skills, and abilities that also function out of combat. This class has 15 abilities out of 16 total abilities that function based on combat. None of those abilities really work outside of combat. Of the one abilities that is usable outside of combat, there is Electromagnetic Affinity, which basically is a bonus to Sense Motive (honestly not altogether that useful), and being able to use Detect Thoughts, which is basically only usable outside of combat. Even then, it isn't too useful, since it has both a visual, and somatic component, which means when you use it, everyone will know you are using it. Also, how does Electromagnetic Affinity interact with the Focus component of the spell? Just ignore it?

A very effective way to determine Tier:
Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

How does the character interact with those situations? How effective are they are dealing with those problems?

Situation 1: Combat, which is what the character can do best. It also has a lot of traps, which the Stormlord can't really do anything about. So, it can accomplish half of the scenario.

Situation 2: No diplomacy, no social skills, all the Stormlord has is Sense Motive and Intimidate. Intimidate can't really do anything, and Sense Motive has basically no utility in this situation. Can't really do anything in this scenario.

Situation 3: In terms of actual preparation, this class can't do anything that any other class could do, which is Craft, which, even then, isn't that useful. A wizard would help with fortifications, a cleric with healing and more fortifications. True, the ToB classes can't really do anything here, but they could do stuff in the other situations. The only ability it has for actual boosting of others is really only useful in combat, when the Orcish horde is here. Therefore, can't really do anything in this scenario.

Tier 3, this class is not. However, that is not really a bad thing, either. Some people really like playing Tier 4, and I can't say I blame them. This class is effective at what it does, which is probably most important.

I would also love for you to try to fill out the above Situations with your own opinions about what your class can do. I obviously don't have as much experience with the class as you do. Remember, you aren't supposed to be able to do everything up there (unless you are a wizard >_>). No one is going to be able to kill the Black Dragon and disarm all of the traps, and if they can, they probably can't help with the fortifications, or help in the social situation. But they should at least have some capability of helping somehow other than being able to kill stuff.

In order to get it to Tier 3: Expand the skill list. More Socially oriented skills would be a godsend (Diplomacy, at the very least, makes a lot of sense). The rest of the skills aren't bad.

Something else to try; why not give them Marshal Auras? This may or may not have been mentioned earlier, I didn't read too carefully, but right now the only aura is for combat only. Having the capability of using it for out of combat skill boosts could be really nice and useful.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-18, 03:03 PM
This, This is Win.

Thanks. I'll get on implementing that.


This class is most solidly a Tier 4 class, focused almost entirely on combat, with a skill list that is kind of compressed for out of combat reliability. Having in combat flexibility isn't the point, having both in combat and out of combat flexibility is what is necessary for Tier 3. The Crusader, Warblade, and Swordsage accomplish this by having nice, widely accentuated skill lists, extra skill points, encouragement to take and use those skills, and abilities that also function out of combat. This class has 15 abilities out of 16 total abilities that function based on combat. None of those abilities really work outside of combat. Of the one abilities that is usable outside of combat, there is Electromagnetic Affinity, which basically is a bonus to Sense Motive (honestly not altogether that useful), and being able to use Detect Thoughts, which is basically only usable outside of combat. Even then, it isn't too useful, since it has both a visual, and somatic component, which means when you use it, everyone will know you are using it. Also, how does Electromagnetic Affinity interact with the Focus component of the spell? Just ignore it?

A very effective way to determine Tier:
Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

How does the character interact with those situations? How effective are they are dealing with those problems?

Situation 1: Combat, which is what the character can do best. It also has a lot of traps, which the Stormlord can't really do anything about. So, it can accomplish half of the scenario.

Situation 2: No diplomacy, no social skills, all the Stormlord has is Sense Motive and Intimidate. Intimidate can't really do anything, and Sense Motive has basically no utility in this situation. Can't really do anything in this scenario.

Situation 3: In terms of actual preparation, this class can't do anything that any other class could do, which is Craft, which, even then, isn't that useful. A wizard would help with fortifications, a cleric with healing and more fortifications. True, the ToB classes can't really do anything here, but they could do stuff in the other situations. The only ability it has for actual boosting of others is really only useful in combat, when the Orcish horde is here. Therefore, can't really do anything in this scenario.

Tier 3, this class is not. However, that is not really a bad thing, either. Some people really like playing Tier 4, and I can't say I blame them. This class is effective at what it does, which is probably most important.

I would also love for you to try to fill out the above Situations with your own opinions about what your class can do. I obviously don't have as much experience with the class as you do. Remember, you aren't supposed to be able to do everything up there (unless you are a wizard >_>). No one is going to be able to kill the Black Dragon and disarm all of the traps, and if they can, they probably can't help with the fortifications, or help in the social situation. But they should at least have some capability of helping somehow other than being able to kill stuff.

In order to get it to Tier 3: Expand the skill list. More Socially oriented skills would be a godsend (Diplomacy, at the very least, makes a lot of sense). The rest of the skills aren't bad.

Something else to try; why not give them Marshal Auras? This may or may not have been mentioned earlier, I didn't read too carefully, but right now the only aura is for combat only. Having the capability of using it for out of combat skill boosts could be really nice and useful.

Right, I can definitely see your point there buddy. I sort of think of this guy as more Tier 3.5 than 3 myself, because he's got more versatility than most Tier 4s (i.e. he can do a little bit more than Barbarian for example), but he's not quite got the versatility OUT of combat that most Tier 3s have.
The Inspiring Presence mechanic does actually work out of combat, as long as the Stormlord is around, they get bonuses to skill checks and all the other stuff, even if it's only a small bonus.

As for the situations:
Situation 1: The Stormlord ends up barrelling through the traps yes, but just relies on guts to literally storm through it. As for the dragon... combat yeah, the Stormlord looks the dragon right in the eye, spits once on the ground, roars and then gets all electrical in the hizz-house.

Situation 2: Okay yeah, Stormlord can't handle that... unless Intimidate honestly works, or he finds out the resistance leader is secretly lieing to everyone and selling slaves to the tyranical state, in which case I point you to the solution to Situation 1. However, that's a rather rare case.

Situation 3: The Stormlord uses his vast experience in combat to help prepare the soldiers for battle, and when the time comes, no matter who tells him not to fight (other than the DM you know), he's stepping on the front line to do what he can to turn the tide.

So yes, he shines in half of situation 1, has a hard time dealing with 2, and takes a bit of thought to help in 3, even if he can't do as much as other classes.

More skills I can definitely see, maybe even make it so that Electromagnetic Affinity ability grants bonuses to more than just Sense Motive, as for how it deals with casting time, ingredients and the focus, it ignores the lot, the Stormlord can cast it for free, instantly, pretty much whenever he wants, unless he's exposed to the stuff that hinders SLAs (anti-magic zone, spell resistance, grants an AoO if used in combat, etc, etc). :smallsmile:

So, current to-do-list:

Add in more social skills
Change Electromagnetic Affinity to include more social skills
Clarify the Detect Thoughts SLA in terms of components and focuses.

unosarta
2011-09-18, 03:09 PM
Oh, herp derp, didn't notice the bonus from Inspiring Presence to skill checks. That's a bit nicer.

With the additions that you mention adding, the class should definitely become Tier 3.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-18, 03:12 PM
Okay, so, list of new edits:

Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information are all class skills now
Electromagnetic affinity now applies to the new skills and Intimidate as well as Sense Motive
Electromagnetic affinity allows the Stormlord to use their Strength Modifier instead of their Wisdom/Charisma modifier for these skill checks.
Detect Thoughts SLA is clarified in terms of components. (doesn't need them)
Lightning Lunge feature added.


So yeah, more versatility to the class, and some added combat mobility. :smallsmile:

Zakaroth
2011-09-18, 05:28 PM
In my humble opinion this should be a PrC; its way to uniquely specialized for a base class if you ask me. Maybe a PrC for a Tome of Battle class. It feels like a mix of a sorcerer/swordsage and warblade. Dont get me wrong, it has some nice mechanics and idea's, but its just what I was thinking.

Daverin
2011-09-18, 11:43 PM
You know, I begin to get tired of hearing that; if someone would like it to be a base class, then let them do it. If they can make it a fulfilling base class without completely stretching any fluff used to make it, then I see no problem. There are plenty of reasons a more specific flavor is appropriate for a base class; sometimes a character just needs to start with their powers to match the fluff someone has in mind.

Metahuman1
2011-09-19, 06:47 AM
Exactly. I hate the idea of having too use one play style for X levels until the play style you really wanted comes online. Particularly if you have to build into the play style you want, meaning you have to suck too get too do what you want too do. Shouldn't be that way in D&D.

And a Lot of DM's will make you jump through extra hoops too do that as well. Not fun. So no, this works as a base class.

Hanuman
2011-09-19, 06:59 AM
A very effective way to determine Tier:
Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

How does the character interact with those situations? How effective are they are dealing with those problems?

Situation 1: Combat, which is what the character can do best. It also has a lot of traps, which the Stormlord can't really do anything about. So, it can accomplish half of the scenario.

Situation 2: No diplomacy, no social skills, all the Stormlord has is Sense Motive and Intimidate. Intimidate can't really do anything, and Sense Motive has basically no utility in this situation. Can't really do anything in this scenario.

Situation 3: In terms of actual preparation, this class can't do anything that any other class could do, which is Craft, which, even then, isn't that useful. A wizard would help with fortifications, a cleric with healing and more fortifications. True, the ToB classes can't really do anything here, but they could do stuff in the other situations. The only ability it has for actual boosting of others is really only useful in combat, when the Orcish horde is here. Therefore, can't really do anything in this scenario.
1) Tricky, you'd probably be best to pick up leadership and do a subtle rally to gain a follower or two, then use that combined with gather information to navigate town, getting a skilled local navigator/sherpa to help you find the cave, from there he's basically a barbarian trapbreaker.

2) See: Conan the Barbarian

3) Lyr of Building will help before and during the war, a high charisma cohort could play this instrument and build a ridiculous fortification for you.

In terms of class features? None. This is a kick-in-the-door character and is solid T4, agreed.

Metahuman1
2011-09-19, 08:13 AM
1: He's got gather information, so he can now locate the dragon's cave on his own. And He can use Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate to get someone like a rogue, scout, Ninja, Factotum, or other person with levels in a class with trap finding to deal with the traps. Then, he goes in there and fights.

2: He's got Diplomacy, Gather Information (Offer helpful information or find out the right thing to say/do too get him to trust you), or if he want's to play it that way, bluff too get him to think your something else or someone else so that he'll trust you.

3: Use Gather information too try and find a way to make the Orc army Turn back or go in a different and more advantageous direction. If that fails, use Gather information to find out if you could take over the Orc army by besting there leader in single combat, and if there leader is something you could actually beat in a fight. And if THAT is a no go, use Gather information and all your other ability's to go out there and use Sabotage and Hit and run attacks too slow them down as much as possible, giving the town more time to prepare, and to soften them up as much a possible. Make sure there short or just don't have siege equipment or Arrows, Poison the Wargs Water Supply so they don't have mounted, cut there numbers down as much as possible, particularly among there casters if possible.


So, I'd say with the improvements that have now been added to the table, it's a Teir 3 class. Not an exceptionally versitial Teir 3 class like the Binder and Factotum I grant you, but a Teir 3 class.

Hanuman
2011-09-19, 10:01 AM
1: He's got gather information, so he can now locate the dragon's cave on his own. And He can use Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate to get someone like a rogue, scout, Ninja, Factotum, or other person with levels in a class with trap finding to deal with the traps. Then, he goes in there and fights.

2: He's got Diplomacy, Gather Information (Offer helpful information or find out the right thing to say/do too get him to trust you), or if he want's to play it that way, bluff too get him to think your something else or someone else so that he'll trust you.

3: Use Gather information too try and find a way to make the Orc army Turn back or go in a different and more advantageous direction. If that fails, use Gather information to find out if you could take over the Orc army by besting there leader in single combat, and if there leader is something you could actually beat in a fight. And if THAT is a no go, use Gather information and all your other ability's to go out there and use Sabotage and Hit and run attacks too slow them down as much as possible, giving the town more time to prepare, and to soften them up as much a possible. Make sure there short or just don't have siege equipment or Arrows, Poison the Wargs Water Supply so they don't have mounted, cut there numbers down as much as possible, particularly among there casters if possible.


So, I'd say with the improvements that have now been added to the table, it's a Teir 3 class. Not an exceptionally versitial Teir 3 class like the Binder and Factotum I grant you, but a Teir 3 class.
1) Bluff would be valid, but I'm not seeing a "draw me an exact top-down map to an obscure remote cave in some mountain I heard a rumor about" gather information check.

3) Ah right! The old "go into the valley of 300 orcs (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13840259)" plan!

Metahuman1
2011-09-19, 10:21 AM
1: But if they know locally that the Dragons in a cave, surely SOMEONE will know which cave. It's the way the game works, otherwise it's not a good plot hook.

3: No, think DM of the Rings, the part were there talking about going to Helms Deep and that it's an escort mission, where Aragon is mentioning all the other things they could be doing that would help more then just the escort mission.

Hanuman
2011-09-19, 11:13 AM
1: But if they know locally that the Dragons in a cave, surely SOMEONE will know which cave. It's the way the game works, otherwise it's not a good plot hook.

3: No, think DM of the Rings, the part were there talking about going to Helms Deep and that it's an escort mission, where Aragon is mentioning all the other things they could be doing that would help more then just the escort mission.
1) Might not be a plot hook, may just be a rumor. I'm sure we've all played the "you start in a tavern and go to the top of the highest mountain you can see" type campaigns, personally I've always been a fan of fake magical items, lies, plothooks ending up to just be distractions so you don't expect it when a means to get there happens to be the thing the DM spent an hour last night drawing out a battle grid for.

Metahuman1
2011-09-19, 11:20 AM
Well, I suppose there's always the alternative option.

Have the wizard do a bit of team work and cast sending. "Hello (Insert Dragons name here.), your dumb, come too (Insert your desired location here.) in the next three days if you wanna do something about it! Up yours!"

He's Chaotic Evil and form a Race that's almost always cocky as all get out. Unless you make it painfully obvious it's a very bad place for him to fight, he'll be there. And then, Let. Mortal. Combat. Begin!

Fredaintdead
2011-09-19, 11:34 AM
Let. Mortal. Combat. Begin!

Okay, I had the urge to shout "MORTAL KOMBAT!" and hum the tune after readng that.

Just because this is the newest homebrew thread of mine, my next idea (which probably won't come out for a couple of weeks at least) is to see if I can make a decent archer-based base class, possibly sniper-based.
As for variants of this class in particular, I've been thinking of doing a two-handed weapon variant, and after that, maybe a sword-and-board variant if I can manage it. :smallsmile:

Metahuman1
2011-09-19, 11:39 AM
Two handed weapons get all the love in 3.5, make them the lowest priority.

But after this, I'd SOOOO love to see what you can do for Archers and Sword and Board. I'd also like to see if we can't make Crossbows and Weapon in one hand nothing in the other viable options as well.

Fredaintdead
2011-09-19, 12:05 PM
Two handed weapons get all the love in 3.5, make them the lowest priority.

But after this, I'd SOOOO love to see what you can do for Archers and Sword and Board. I'd also like to see if we can't make Crossbows and Weapon in one hand nothing in the other viable options as well.

Well, my archer idea was completely unrelated to the Stormlord, but the Sword-and-board variant is definitely my priority after the archer.

As for what I planned to do with the archer, my idea was long-range precision attacks that work only while standing still, animal companion, traps, free archery feats, an x/day ability that lets them get the bonus damage while moving, etc, etc. But a dual-wield crossbow variant for that would be alright, add in a ranged flurry, maybe skirmish damage and possibly some extras.

Metahuman1
2011-09-19, 01:56 PM
If your gonna give them Precision damage, Make sure you also provide an easy way to get around immunity's. Stuff that's immune to sneak attack, skirmish, Criticals, ext, are the absolute bane of a D&D archers existence.

Making the ability to bypass more and more types of DR until by 20th lvl DR is a none issue for you period would be good as well, as DR is a serious Nerf for Archers.

Let me see, a way to ignore certain environmental problems like high winds or being under water would be great for them too have as it's another problem that casters don't seem to have to jump over.

And Helping to set them up to make better use of distance and cover would be a good idea.

Just off the top of my head.