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Dimonite
2011-09-16, 11:02 PM
NOTE: This is a first fifth draft, and still completely open to suggestions, comments, etc. Some of the information in religion and race (and possibly elsewhere) only makes sense inside my personal campaign world, which has not yet been fully developed.
Edit: The campaign world is pretty much finished, and has been posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224119)
Neutralizer background:
Neutralizers, simply put, stop magic. They make spells fail at will, and are the worst enemy of a sorcerer or wizard. Many armies, especially those lacking in magical aid, will enlist a Neutralizer to assist against enemy spellcasters.
Adventures: A Neutralizer may be drawn to the adventuring life for any number of reasons. Some are intrigued by their strange powers, and want to develop them. Others simply see their abilities as an excuse to fight people. Whatever the reason, a Neutralizer is a very useful member of any party.
Characteristics: Since their power is innate, Neutralizers donít require the years of study of some professions, and they learn to use weapons with some proficiency. As a part of their ability to resist spells, their will save is quite high. A Neutralizer, as he gains control over his ability, gets better and better at stopping more powerful magic.
Alignment: Neutralizers can be any alignment, but they tend towards law over chaos, as their power is inherently restrictive. Evil Neutralizers tend to harbor a deep hatred of all spellcasting classes.
Religion: Those few Neutralizers who worship a deity (their power applies to divine magic as well as arcane) will worship Bazraes, as he has been known to prevent some necromancy from working, parallel to their own ability.
Background: The Neutralizer is the exact opposite of the sorcerer. While the sorcerer has random outbursts of magic at puberty, Neutralizers have the exact opposite happen. Minor spells fizzle and die around them, they see through unsophisticated illusions, and they give make the inherently magical intensely uncomfortable.
Races: Many Neutralizers are Wolfen; their racial aversion to magic means the genetics for neutralization run strong in their race. Conversely, Elf and gnome Neutralizers are rare, due to their racesí natural affinity for magic. However, there are neutralizers of every race.
Other Classes: A Neutralizer will often be at odds with the party spellcaster, but more diplomatically minded Neutralizers will use their abilities to compliment the spellcaster: taking out enemy spells makes it easier for the wizard to concentrate on blasting his opponents or buffing his allies.
Role: While the Neutralizer has some martial ability, and can be helpful in a straight fight, their strength lies in stopping enemy magic.
Game Rule Information:
Abilities: Intelligence is the most important stat for Neutralizers. It determines how powerful their neutralization is, and how often they can use it. Also, it is the key stat for many of the Neutralizerís class skills.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Ex-Neutralizers
If a Neutralizer gains a level in any spellcasting class, he loses all of his Neutralizer abilities, and cannot take another level of Neutralizer.
Neutralizer stats:
{table]Level|Base attack bonus|Fort save|Ref save|Will save|Special
1 |+1|+2 |+2 |+2 |Sense Spellcaster, Neutralize Magic, Null Strike +1d6
2 |+2 |+3 |+3 |+3 |Spell resistance, warp magic
3 |+3 |+3 |+3 |+3 |Neutralize 2nd level, sense abilities, Null Strike +2d6
4 |+4 |+4 |+4 |+4 |Consume Magic +1
5 |+5|+4 |+4 |+4 |Neutralize 3rd level, sense trap, neutralize trap, Null Strike +3d6
6 |+6/+1 |+5 |+5 |+5 |Null Blood
7 |+7/+2 |+5 |+5 |+5 |Neutralize 4th level, Null Strike +4d6
8 |+8/+3 |+6 |+6 |+6 |Consume Magic +2
9 |+9/+4 |+6 |+6 |+6 |Neutralize 5th level, Null Strike +5d6
10 |+10/+5 |+7 |+7 |+7 |True Seeing,
11 |+11/+6/+1|+7 |+7 |+7 |Neutralize 6th level, Null Strike +6d6
12 |+12/+7/+2 |+8 |+8 |+8 |Consume Magic +3
13 |+13/+8/+3 |+8 |+8 |+8 |Neutralize 7th level, Null Strike +7d6
14 |+14/+9/+4 |+9 |+9 |+9 |
15 |+15/+10/+5 |+9 |+9 |+9 |Neutralize 8th level, A-m field 2/day
16 |+16/+11/+6/+1|+10 |+10 |+10 |Consume Magic +4
17 |+17/+12/+7/+2|+10 |+10 |+10 |Neutralize 9th level, Null Strike +8d6
18 |+18/+13/+8+/3 |+11 |+11 |+11 |
19 |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+11 |+11 |+11 |A-m field 3/day, Null strike +10d6
20 |+20/+15/+10/+5|+12 |+12 |+12 | Consume Magic +5[/table]

Class Skills:
The Neutralizerís skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) *4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier.

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Neutralizers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all armor and shields.

Sense Magic: At first level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to sense magic. This acts as the Detect magic spell, active continuously. It also allows him to detect if a creature has any caster levels. At third level, this improves to allow the neutralizer to sense the presence (but not power) of spell-like and supernatural abilities. At fifth level, he can use this ability to sense the presence, but not the location, of magical traps. He must state that he is using the ability for this purpose. He can use the search skill to find a magical trap with a search DC over 20. at 10th level, he gains the ability to see through illusions, gaining the true seeing spell as a continuous supernatural ability.

Neutralization: At first level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to neutralize spells of first and 0th level. He can neutralize 2nd level spells at third level, and gains a new level of Neutralization at each odd-numbered level after, ending at 17th level with 9th level spells. When a neutralizer sees an enemy use a spell or spell-like ability, the neutralizer may take an immediate action to neutralize the spell. Then he must make a neutralization check: d20 + class level + Int modifier vs. DC 15 + enemy caster level. If successful, the neutralization causes the spell to fail, and does damage equal to the amount the check succeeds by + level of the spell neutralized to the caster. If the check fails, the caster must subtract the result of the check from any checks made to overcome spell resistance this round. If the neutralizer cannot see the spellcaster, he gets a -5 penalty to this check. The Neutralizer may take a swift action during his turn to neutralize any active spell or spell-like ability, making a neutralization check as above. In either case, the Neutralizer gains temporary hit points equal to the level of the neutralized spell. If he neutralizes multiple spells in an encounter, the temporary hit points stack. These temporary hit points last for 5 minutes/ level of the neutralized spell.

Null Strike: A neutralizerís presence is so draining to the inherently magical that he can use his ability to gain a bonus to damage and precision against them. Starting at 1st level, the Neutralizer may use a Null Strike against all of the following creature types: Aberration, Construct, Dragon, Fey, Magical Beast, Outsider, and Undead. He can also use this ability against enemy spellcasters. The damage bonus starts at 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at every odd-numbered level. The neutralizer also gains an insight bonus on his attack roll equal to his Int modifier for the Null Strike. If the target has any beneficial spells, the Neutralizer may make a neutralization check against any one of them after hitting with the Null strike.

Spell Resistance: Starting at second level, a Neutralizer gains spell resistance equal 13+ his class level. He can allow any spell to penetrate this if he so desires.

Warp Magic: Starting at second level, a neutralizer gains a bonus based on a spellís school of magic every time he successfully neutralizes a spell or spell-like ability. The duration of all effects (unless otherwise specified) is a number of minutes equal to the spell level + the Neutralizer's INT modifier.

Abjuration: gains an AC bonus equal to the amount the Neutralization check succeeded by.

Conjuration: summons a monster as the summon monster spell, with a level equal to the level of the neutralized spell.

Divination: forsee the casterís next action, giving a bonus equal to the spell level on AC or a save against the next offensive action the caster takes.

Enchantment: The caster is affected as by one of the following spells (Will save DC: 10+ level of neutralized spell + neutralizer INT modifier), based on the level of the neutralized spell: 0th level: daze; 1st level: charm person; 2nd level: touch of idiocy; 3rd level: hold person; 4th level: confusion; 5th level: feeblemind; 6th level: geas/quest; level 7: insanity; 8th level: ottoís irresistible dance; 9th level: dominate monster.

Evocation: the neutralizer may pick one target within 50 feet of the spellcaster (including the spellcaster) to take 1d8/spell level damage. (Reflex save DC 10+spell level +Neutralizer INT modifier for half damage)

Illusion: the gains 10% per spell level concealment. This caps at 50%. For spells above 5th level, it grants spell level-3 mirror images, each with 50% concealment.

Necromancy: creates an undead companion, depending on the level of the neutralized spell. 0-2: medium human skeleton. 3-5: ghoul.6-8: shadow. 9: spectre.

Transmutation: The neutralizer gains a bonus to each of his ability scores equal to the level of the neutralized spell.

Consume Magic: Starting at fourth level, the Neutralizer may drain magical power from the spells he neutralizes rather than merely warping it. When he neutralizes a spell or spell-like ability, he may apply a +1 bonus to any save or skill that he has not already enhanced with Consume Magic. He may not use both Consume Magic and Warp magic on the same Neutralization check. At level 8, he can apply this bonus more than once to the same save or skill, to a maximum of a +2 bonus. This maximum increases by one every four levels, to a maximum of +5 at level 20. This bonus lasts for 24 hours.

Neutralize Trap: Beginning at 5th level, a neutralizer can use his neutralization ability to disarm magical traps. He must make a neutralization check with a DC of the trapís Disable Device DC. If this check fails by 5 or more, however, it automatically sets off the trap.

Null Blood: Starting at level 6, any magic weapon striking a neutralizer has a chance to lose its abilities for a short time. When a Neutralizer is hit with a magic weapon, he must make a Neutralization check, using the 1/2 the level of the attacker instead of the spell level. If he succeeds, the weapon's abilities are suppressed for a number of minutes equal to the amount the check succeeded by, and any effects the weapon would have had beyond the base weapon damage do not take place.

Antimagic field: Starting at 11th level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to project an antimagic field. Treat this as the Antimagic Field spell, usable once per day at a caster level equal to the characterís Neutralizer level. At 15th level, the Neutralzier can use his Antimagic field twice per day, and he can use it 3 times per day at 19th level.


Neutralizer feats!
Neutralization Focus:
Choose a school of magic.
Benefit: Gain +1 to Neutralization checks against a the school of magic you select.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new school of magic.

Greater Neutralization Focus:
Choose a school of magic to which you have already applied the Neutralization Focus feat. Your ability to neutralize spells of this school are even greater than before.
Benefit: Gain +1 to Neutralization checks against a the school of magic you select.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new school of magic to which you have already applied the Neutralization Focus feat.

Neutralize Supernatural:
Your skills at stopping magic have grown so great that you can shut down abilities other than those traditionally considered magic.
Prerequisites: Int 20, Neutralizer level 10
Benefit: You may use your neutralization ability on any supernatural ability, with the DC equaling 25+enemy character level or hit dice, whichever is higher.

Glimbur
2011-09-16, 11:34 PM
What does a neutralizer do in a party? Not every encounter has enemy spellcasters. Skill list is wizard - knowledges + spot and listen, 3/4 BAB, very focused class features... and that's it.

SR 5 at level 2 is not very helpful. In general, SR less than 10+character level is very weak.

The mechanic for neutralization requires too many rolls. I would make it just like counterspelling: neutralizer rolls 1d20+class level v 10+enemy caster level. Adding limits on which schools can be affected is an unnecessary restriction, and adding SR on a failed neutralization does help the power level somewhat but at the expense of too many rules for one thing.

AMF at level 17 is not a big deal.

Other class features to consider: lots of creatures are innately magical (Magical Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Outsiders, etc.) Perhaps the Neutralizer should do bonus damage against them, scaling as maybe 1d6/3 character levels. I'm not sure what they should be able to do against mundane opponents like Giants and fighters and such though... it's a question that needs answering if the class is going to be more broadly applicable. As it's a possibility for DM's to use to counter PC casters... but casters can already do that. What makes the class special and how does that work mechanically?

Mr.Bookworm
2011-09-17, 12:40 AM
Note that I'm just focusing on the crunch for this review.

At the base, bump up skills to 4+Int.


Sense Spellcaster: If a Neutralizer has clear line of sight to any creature, he innately senses whether the creature can cast spells. Spell-like abilities will trigger this sense.

Does the split between divine and arcane matter? What exactly is a spellcaster for the purposes of this ability? Would any of the pseudo-casters (Warlock, Shadowmancer, Truenamer, et al) register on this?

I would recommend wording it as "Any creature that has a caster level of 1 or greater, or possesses a spell-like ability".

This also seems like a good place for an always-on detect magic effect.


Neutralization:

Let me go through this piece-by-piece.


At first level, a Neutralizer picks one school of magic to be his neutralized school.

I wouldn't use the schools like this. It doesn't scale with level well, and is kind of annoying to the DM (who has to decide, every time he builds a caster, if he wants to include spells he knows will be countered).

I would instead recommend doing it by spell level, scaling it along with, say, the Wizard spell progression.


He can attempt to neutralize spells of this school a number of times per day equal to his Class Level plus his Int modifier.

I don't particularly like abilities that scale with class level like this.

Why not just make it at-will? That doesn't strike me as being overpowered.


Then, if it is from one of his neutralized schools, he may forfeit his next turn and attempt to neutralize it.

This? This basically makes this ability worthless. If you have to give up your entire next turn just to annoy the spellcaster, I would never, ever use this ability.

Instead, I would recommend just making it an immediate action, with the number of spells you can neutralize each turn increasing by level.


To neutralize a spell, the Neutralizer must make a neutralization check : d20 +Int modifier vs. DC (10 + spell level).

I'm with Glimbur. There's a bit too much rolling going on here.


Spell Resistance: Starting at second level, a Neutralizer gains spell resistance. This increases by two at every even-numbered level. This stacks with any spell resistance the neutralizer may already have due to race, items, etc.

The check to overcome SR is a caster level check, so 1d20+caster level. That means a 2nd level caster is overcoming your SR 85% of the time. This problem just scales with level.

I'd just bump it up by adding a flat 10 or 11 to all of the values.

This also seems like a good place to add some special abilities. Getting healed if the spell doesn't penetrate your SR, the spell bouncing back if it doesn't overcome SR, etcetera etcetera.


Antimagic field: Starting at 17th level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to project an antimagic field. Treat this as the Antimagic Field spell, usable once per day at a caster level equal to the characterís Neutralizer level. At 19th level, the Neutralzier can use his Antimagic field twice per day.


Anti-magic field is kind of pathetic at 17th level, yeah. I'd bump this down to 10th or 11th level and give increasing uses per day.

This also needs more class features.

GuyFawkes
2011-09-17, 12:54 AM
What does a neutralizer do in a party? Not every encounter has enemy spellcasters. Skill list is wizard - knowledges + spot and listen, 3/4 BAB, very focused class features... and that's it.

SR 5 at level 2 is not very helpful. In general, SR less than 10+character level is very weak.

The mechanic for neutralization requires too many rolls. I would make it just like counterspelling: neutralizer rolls 1d20+class level v 10+enemy caster level. Adding limits on which schools can be affected is an unnecessary restriction, and adding SR on a failed neutralization does help the power level somewhat but at the expense of too many rules for one thing.

AMF at level 17 is not a big deal.

Other class features to consider: lots of creatures are innately magical (Magical Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Outsiders, etc.) Perhaps the Neutralizer should do bonus damage against them, scaling as maybe 1d6/3 character levels. I'm not sure what they should be able to do against mundane opponents like Giants and fighters and such though... it's a question that needs answering if the class is going to be more broadly applicable. As it's a possibility for DM's to use to counter PC casters... but casters can already do that. What makes the class special and how does that work mechanically?

Exactly. All this class does is negate magic, but other than that, in an encounter with nonmagic users, with a 3/4 BAB and no abilities for offense/support, even defense against normal attacks, I don't see anything it could do then. Maybe give it spellcasting? Or maybe more appropriate would be a full BAB and some martial abilities or bonus feats since the class kind of denies magic?

Dimonite
2011-09-17, 11:43 AM
First, thank you for all the helpful comments!
Edits made:
{table] Level| Special
1| Sense Spellcaster, Neutralize magic
2| SR 15
3| Neutralize 2nd level
4| SR 17, Null strike +1d6
5| Neutralize 3rd level
6| SR 19
7| Neutralize 4th level, Null strike +2d6
8| SR 21
9| Neutralize 5th level
10| SR 23, Null strike +3d6
11| Neutralize 6th level
12| SR 25
13| Neutralize 7th level, , Null strike +4d6
14| SR 27
15| Neutralize 8th level, A-m field 2/day
16| SR 29, , Null strike +5d6
17| Neutralize 9th level
18| SR 31
19| A-m field 3/day, , Null strike +6d6
20| SR 33 [/table]

Sense Spellcaster: At first level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to sense magic. This acts as the Detect magic spell, active continuously. At third level, this improves to allow the neutralizer to sense the presence (but not power) of spell-like and supernatural abilities.
Neutralization: At first level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to neutralize spells of first and 0th level. He can neutralize 2nd level spells at third level, and gains a new level of Neutralization at each odd-numbered level after, ending at 17th level with 9th level spells. When an enemy uses a spell or spell-like ability, the neutralizer may take an immediate action to neutralize the spell. Then he must make a neutralization check: d20 + class level + Int modifier vs. DC 10 + enemy caster level. If successful, the neutralization does damage equal to the amount the check succeeds by + level of the spell neutralized to the caster. If the check fails, the caster must subtract the result of the check from any checks made to overcome spell resistance this round.
Null Strike: A neutralizerís presence is so draining to the inherently magical that he can use his ability to gain a bonus to damage against them. Starting at 4th level, the Neutralizer may use a Null Strike a number of times per day equal to his Int modifier against all of the following creature types: Construct, Dragon, Fey, Magical Beast, Outsider, and Undead. This bonus increases by 1d6 every third level after 4th.
Antimagic field: Starting at 11th level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to project an antimagic field. Treat this as the Antimagic Field spell, usable once per day at a caster level equal to the characterís Neutralizer level. At 15th level, the Neutralizer can use his Antimagic field twice per day, and he can use it 3 times per day at 19th level.

Garryl
2011-09-17, 12:24 PM
First off, remove the improvements to Spell Resistance from the class feature table and redefine it as granting SR equal to 13 + your class level. Making yourself not become obsolete is not a class feature. Then spend a little time thinking about actual, varied, useful class features that can fill the apparent void at each level. Make them good, but also make them versatile. Here are some example ideas:

- Provide a dispel magic effect on a successful attack against the target and all of its equipment.
- Momentarily drain all magic around a creature, sickening it for a few rounds due to the unnatural feeling.
- Take some of that magic you've drained away and throw it back in your enemies' faces.
- Trapfinding against magical traps.
- Act like a powerful magical electromagnet (or black hole-like gravitational body, or vacuum), pulling creatures with strong magical auras to you.

Null Strike has no reason to have limited uses per day, especially such a strict limit. It's compounded by being your only actual offensive ability.

Take a gander at the Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1) class from Complete Adventurer. It, too, is missing what's needed to be a well-rounded class and effective caster-hunter, but you can look at some of its abilities and maybe get some inspiration from them.

The Neutralizer is currently overfocused on fighting spellcasters. Regardless of its ability to do so effectively, it can't actually do anything else. That kind of design paradigm should be reserved for prestige classes. Base classes need to be useful in a wide variety of situations. Consider the following situations, taken from the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293):



Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.


Also, on a side note, in any encounter not involving enemy spellcasters, the Neutralizer is about equal to Aristocrat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/aristocrat.htm) NPC class.

Dimonite
2011-09-17, 08:19 PM
New edits:
Null Strike: A neutralizerís presence is so draining to the inherently magical that he can use his ability to gain a bonus to damage and precision against them. Starting at 4th level, the Neutralizer may use a Null Strike against all of the following creature types: Construct, Dragon, Fey, Magical Beast, Outsider, and Undead. He can also use this ability against enemy spellcasters. This bonus starts at 1d6+Int modifier at 4th level, and increases by 1d6 every third level after 4th. he also gains a bonus to his attack roll equal to his Int modifier on the Null strike. If the target has any beneficial spells, the Neutralizer may make a neutralization check against any one of them after hitting with the Null strike.

Sense Magic: At first level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to sense magic. This acts as the Detect magic spell, active continuously, and gives him a +15 bonus to spot and listen checks against anyone with a magic item. It also allows him to detect if someone is able to cast spells. At third level, this improves to allow the neutralizer to sense the presence (but not power) of spell-like and supernatural abilities. At fourth level, it extends the bonus to spot and listen checks to anything vulnerable to a Null Strike. At fifth level, he can use this ability to sense the presence, but not the location, of magical traps. He must state that he is using the ability for this purpose. He can use the search skill to find a magical trap with a search DC over 20. at 10th level, he gains the ability to see through illusions, gaining the true seeing spell as a continuous supernatural ability.

Neutralize Trap: Beginning at 5th level, a neutralizer can use his neutralization ability to disarm magical traps. He must make a neutralization check with a DC of the trapís Disable Device DC. If this check fails by 5 or more, however, it automatically sets off the trap.

Disenchant: Starting at 6th level, the neutralizer can use his power to permanently drain a wand, scroll, or potion if its energy. He may take a standard action to make a neutralization check with a DC of 20 plus the level of the spell the wand or potion contains. At 12th level, he can disenchant weapons and armor, using a DC of 25 plus the total armor or weapon bonus, including special abilities. AT 18th level, he may use his ability to deplete the charges of a staff. He must make a neutralization check with a DC of 30 plus the caster level of the staff, or (if applicable) whoever is wielding the staff, whichever is higher. The amount the check succeeds by is the number of charges drained.

Also, skill points were improved from 2+Int modifier to 4+ Int modifier.

Charlie Kemek
2011-09-19, 08:32 PM
You really need it to do something beisdes neutralize spellcasters. Make it a fighter that buffs himself from the energy of the spells, or a skillmonkey, or a group leader kind of thing, but the class just isn't very versatile.

jiriku
2011-09-19, 09:29 PM
Disenchant needs a range. I'd recommend either Touch or Close range, depending on how powerful you want it to be. When attempting to drain an item in the possession of an enemy, you need to indicate whether the ability requires an attack roll or allows a saving throw. I think granting 5 temporary hit points that last for 1 hour would be a nice touch as a benefit for a successful drain. Or perhaps removing one of a list of negative conditions.

Lateral
2011-09-19, 09:42 PM
Also, make the SR lower able as a free action that is usable even during others' turns. Resistance to party buffs is not a good thing.

Charlie Kemek
2011-09-19, 09:47 PM
Also, make the SR lower able as a free action that is usable even during others' turns. Resistance to party buffs is not a good thing.

Can't you just choose to disable the SR at any time?

Lateral
2011-09-19, 09:59 PM
Can't you just choose to disable the SR at any time?

Only as a standard action.

Charlie Kemek
2011-09-19, 10:31 PM
Only as a standard action.

I just looked it up...thanks!

Veklim
2011-09-20, 07:41 AM
Why isn't this a PrC?

In 10 levels you could acheive the same (or similar) set of effects, more flavour and a better reason for focusing so very, very much on one aspect of the game. I do like the general principle, it's reminiscent of the Forsaker from 3.0, in spirit at the very least. May wanna check it out for ideas on fleshing and/or expanding ideas too.

Either way, a base class is meant to be an open arena, some are more open than others, granted, but the general point stands. PrCs are the ones all about specialising, which is why the distinction was first made between the two types of class.

Dimonite
2011-11-28, 09:26 PM
First, I would like to apologize for my prolonged silence. I have no real excuse. However, the NEW AND IMPROVED Neutralizer class will be coming in the next couple of days (unless my teachers give me ridiculous amounts of homework). As for why it isn't a PrC: It doesn't fit well with the backstory of the class, or the world they live in. I'd rather fix up the class than mess with the storyline.

Dimonite
2011-11-29, 10:03 PM
Table:
{table]Level|Base attack bonus|Fort save|Ref save|Will save|Special
1 |+1|+0 |+0 |+2 |Sense Spellcaster, Neutralize Magic
2 |+2 |+0 |+0 |+3 |Spell resistance, warp magic
3 |+3 |+1 |+1 |+3 |Neutralize 2nd level, sense abilities
4 |+4 |+1 |+1 |+4 | Null strike +1d6, sense spellcaster
5 |+5|+1 |+1 |+4 |Neutralize 3rd level, sense trap, neutralize trap
6 |+6/+1 |+2 |+2 |+5 |Disenchant
7 |+7/+2 |+2 |+2 |+5 |Neutralize 4th level, Null strike +2d6
8 |+8/+3 |+2 |+2 |+6 |
9 |+9/+4 |+3 |+3 |+6 |Neutralize 5th level
10 |+10/+5 |+3 |+3 |+7 |Null strike +3d6, true seeing
11 |+11/+6/+1|+3 |+3 |+7 |Neutralize 6th level
12 |+12/+7/+2 |+4 |+4 |+8 |Disenchant Arms & Armor
13 |+13/+8/+3 |+4 |+4 |+8 |Neutralize 7th level, Null strike +4d6
14 |+14/+9/+4 |+4 |+4 |+9 |
15 |+15/+10/+5 |+5 |+5 |+9 |Neutralize 8th level, A-m field 2/day
16 |+16/+11/+6/+1|+5 |+5 |+10 | Null strike +5d6
17 |+17/+12/+7/+2|+5 |+5 |+10 |Neutralize 9th level
18 |+18/+13/+8+/3 |+6 |+6 |+11 |Disenchant Staff
19 |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+6 |+6 |+11 |A-m field 3/day, Null strike +6d6
20 |+20/+15/+10/+5|+6 |+6 |+12 |[/table]

Class Skills:
The Neutralizerís skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) *4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier.

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Neutralizers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all armor (but not shields)
Sense Magic: At first level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to sense magic. This acts as the Detect magic spell, active continuously, and gives him a +15 bonus to spot and listen checks against anyone with a magic item. It also allows him to detect if someone is able to cast spells. At third level, this improves to allow the neutralizer to sense the presence (but not power) of spell-like and supernatural abilities. At fourth level, it extends the bonus to spot and listen checks to anything vulnerable to a Null Strike. At fifth level, he can use this ability to sense the presence, but not the location, of magical traps. He must state that he is using the ability for this purpose. He can use the search skill to find a magical trap with a search DC over 20. at 10th level, he gains the ability to see through illusions, gaining the true seeing spell as a continuous supernatural ability.
Neutralization: At first level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to neutralize spells of first and 0th level. He can neutralize 2nd level spells at third level, and gains a new level of Neutralization at each odd-numbered level after, ending at 17th level with 9th level spells. When a neutralizer sees an enemy use a spell or spell-like ability, the neutralizer may take an immediate action to neutralize the spell. Then he must make a neutralization check: d20 + class level + Int modifier vs. DC 10 + enemy caster level. If successful, the neutralization does damage equal to the amount the check succeeds by + level of the spell neutralized to the caster. If the check fails, the caster must subtract the result of the check from any checks made to overcome spell resistance this round. If the neutralizer cannot see the spellcaster, he gets a -5 penalty to this check. The Neutrlaizer may take a swift action during his turn to neutralize any beneficial (says ďharmlessĒ in the SR or save descriptor) spell, but he must make a successful ranged touch attack against the spell target to do so. In either case, the Neutralizer gains temporary hit points equal to the level of the neutralized spell.
Spell Resistance: Starting at second level, a Neutralizer gains spell resistance equal 13+ his class level. He is able to disable this as a free action.
Warp Magic: Starting at second level, a neutralizer gains a bonus based on a spellís school of magic every time he successfully neutralizes a spell.
Abjuration: gains an AC bonus equal to the amount the check succeeded by for a number of rounds equal to the spell level.
Conjuration: summons a monster as the summon monster spell, with a level equal to the level of the neutralized spell.
Divination: forsee the casterís next action, giving a bonus equal to the spell level on AC or a save against the next offensive action the caster takes.
Enchantment: The caster is affected as by one of the following spells (no save), based on the level of the neutralized spell: 0th level: daze; 1st level: sleep; 2nd level: touch of idiocy; 3rd level: hold person; 4th level: confusion; 5th level: feeblemind; 6th level: geas/quest; level 7: insanity; 8th level: ottoís irresistible dance; 9th level: dominate monster.
Evocation: the neutralizer may pick one target within 50 feet of the spellcaster to take 1d8/spell level damage.
Illusion: the gains 10% per spell level concealment.
Necromancy: creates an undead companion, depending on the level of the neutralized spell. 0-2: skeleton. 3-5: ghoul.6-8: shadow. 9: spectre.
Transmutation: The neutralizer gains a bonus to each of his ability scores equal to the level of the neutralized spell.
Null Strike: A neutralizerís presence is so draining to the inherently magical that he can use his ability to gain a bonus to damage and precision against them. Starting at 4th level, the Neutralizer may use a Null Strike against all of the following creature types: Construct, Dragon, Fey, Magical Beast, Outsider, and Undead. He can also use this ability against enemy spellcasters. The damage bonus starts at 1d6+Int modifier at 4th level, and increases by 1d6 every third level after 4th. He also gains a bonus to his attack roll equal to his Int modifier on the Null strike. If the target has any beneficial spells, the Neutralizer may make a neutralization check against any one of them after hitting with the Null strike. Neutralize Trap: Beginning at 5th level, a neutralizer can use his neutralization ability to disarm magical traps. He must make a neutralization check with a DC of the trapís Disable Device DC. If this check fails by 5 or more, however, it automatically sets off the trap.
Disenchant: Starting at 6th level, the neutralizer can use his power to permanently drain a wand, scroll, or potion if its energy. He may take a standard action to make a neutralization check with a DC of 20 plus the level of the spell the wand or potion contains. He must be within 20 feet of the item to do this. At 12th level, he can disenchant weapons and armor, using a DC of 25 plus the total armor or weapon bonus, including special abilities. AT 18th level, he may use his ability to deplete the charges of a staff. He must make a neutralization check with a DC of 30 plus the caster level of the staff, or (if applicable) whoever is wielding the staff, whichever is higher. The amount the check succeeds by is the number of charges drained. The Neutralizer gains temporary hit points equal to the spell level, total weapon/armor bonus, or charges drained.
Antimagic field: Starting at 11th level, a Neutralizer gains the ability to project an antimagic field. Treat this as the Antimagic Field spell, usable once per day at a caster level equal to the characterís Neutralizer level. At 15th level, the Neutralzier can use his Antimagic field twice per day, and he can use it 3 times per day at 19th level.


If anything is unclear or needs work, please let me know!

jiriku
2011-11-29, 11:07 PM
Levels 8, 14, and 20 say hi, and ask why you don't write or answer when they call anymore?

In general, the class feels overly specialized. You've really got nothing going on if enemies aren't casting spells nearby, and that's going to hurt you badly in a lot of encounters.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-11-30, 12:25 AM
In general, the class feels overly specialized. You've really got nothing going on if enemies aren't casting spells nearby, and that's going to hurt you badly in a lot of encounters.

This bit right here. This is truth. A few suggestions:

Put the most recent version of the class in the first post, so that newcomers don't have to scan the entire thread to find it.
I doubt Disenchant will see much use. Why? It permanently destroys loot! No player wants to do that! On the flip side of things, it's also a really evil thing to do to your players. I'd include the option to totally suppress the item's magic for a short time (say Int. modifier minutes).
I don't see a hit die.
Increased mobility might not go amiss. Give yourself the ability to run down enemy casters.
It might be cool to be able to absorb power from spells defeated by your Nullify ability. This power could build up in a pool, and later be expended to boost attack damage.
How about Mordukain's Disjunction as a SLA for a capstone ability?

Yitzi
2011-11-30, 06:56 PM
I'll have to second the "SR=ECL+3 is pretty much useless" bit. Even without caster level cheese, that amounts to a 10% failure chance for a typical spellcaster. The uses/day for neutralization is also pretty bad; if this is his main ability, he probably should get uses/day roughly on par with a caster's spells.

Dimonite
2011-11-30, 10:06 PM
I'll have to second the "SR=ECL+3 is pretty much useless" bit. Even without caster level cheese, that amounts to a 10% failure chance for a typical spellcaster. The uses/day for neutralization is also pretty bad; if this is his main ability, he probably should get uses/day roughly on par with a caster's spells.
Fixed all of that a while ago, and have now worked it into the first post.


Levels 8, 14, and 20 say hi, and ask why you don't write or answer when they call anymore?
In general, the class feels overly specialized. You've really got nothing going on if enemies aren't casting spells nearby, and that's going to hurt you badly in a lot of encounters.
But ... he can fight like a fighter now! That has to count for something ... right? Also, I've been working on a power to fit into levels 8, 14, and 20. Tell them to keep their shirts on.


A few suggestions:

Put the most recent version of the class in the first post, so that newcomers don't have to scan the entire thread to find it.
Fixed it.


I doubt Disenchant will see much use. Why? It permanently destroys loot! No player wants to do that! On the flip side of things, it's also a really evil thing to do to your players. I'd include the option to totally suppress the item's magic for a short time (say Int. modifier minutes).
Working on it.

I don't see a hit die.
Fixed it.

Increased mobility might not go amiss. Give yourself the ability to run down enemy casters.
It might be cool to be able to absorb power from spells defeated by your Nullify ability. This power could build up in a pool, and later be expended to boost attack damage.
How about Mordukain's Disjunction as a SLA for a capstone ability?
Good ideas, I'll consider them for the next edit.

Yitzi
2011-12-01, 09:44 PM
But ... he can fight like a fighter now!

Like a warrior, actually. (Those bonus feats might not be much, but they're better than nothing.)

Also, I'd think he should get saves and touch AC at least as good as the monk.

Finally, there's a flaw in the Warp Magic ability for illusion: If the neutralized spell is over level 5, then the neutralizer actually has better concealment than someone has against a blind individual, which makes no sense. Instead, cap the concealment ability at 50%, and at more than that give some other bonus.

You also need to say the duration for the ability granted by Warp Magic in the case of the noninstantaneous ones.

motionmatrix
2011-12-02, 09:46 AM
I feel like this guy should be draining spell prepared/slots. Perhaps he just makes casters lose spells at first, but later he can store them for use.

I think that would go in a direction towards helping him against non-casters.

And since he now has full bab, each swing should disrupt magic in an ever growing area around him as an effect.

Perhaps grant him the ability to select specific spellcaster's who they do not affect.

Also you need a capstone. Maybe he can create dead magic spots. That would really piss off quite a few things. Especially when you get to level 20.

motionmatrix
2011-12-02, 10:02 AM
As to the "destroy the loot" problem: check out the pathfinder sunder rules. They did a reasonable/good job in allowing you to break the shiny sword in enemy hands without making it worthless.

Dimonite
2011-12-12, 09:31 PM
Latest edits:
Saves: Now as monk.
Warp Magic: Now has a duration of spell level + INT modifier.
Disenchant: Now drains item for 1 hr/class level, dismissible.
New Ability:

Consume Magic: Starting at eighth level, the Neutralizer may drain magical power from the earth itself. At the beginning of each day, he may apply a +1 bonus to any ability score, save, attack bonus, or damage bonus. At 14th level, this bonus improves to +3, and it improves to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. This bonus lasts for 24 hours.


Finally, there's a flaw in the Warp Magic ability for illusion: If the neutralized spell is over level 5, then the neutralizer actually has better concealment than someone has against a blind individual, which makes no sense. Instead, cap the concealment ability at 50%, and at more than that give some other bonus.
The way I see it, this isn't really a flaw. The neutralizer is warping the power of powerful illusory magic, allowing him to play havoc with senses other than sight.

Yitzi
2011-12-12, 11:58 PM
The way I see it, this isn't really a flaw. The neutralizer is warping the power of powerful illusory magic, allowing him to play havoc with senses other than sight.

But even someone with no senses to detect the creature at all still would have a 50% chance to hit simply by knowing what square he's in. The Neutralizer is getting better than that, which makes no sense; a better way would be to give him mirror images so that the enemy doesn't know what square he's in.

Dimonite
2011-12-19, 05:12 PM
But even someone with no senses to detect the creature at all still would have a 50% chance to hit simply by knowing what square he's in. The Neutralizer is getting better than that, which makes no sense; a better way would be to give him mirror images so that the enemy doesn't know what square he's in.

Very well. It is done.

Dimonite
2012-02-09, 10:23 PM
New edits! The null strike now keeps pace with sneak attack, and I've added some feats. I am definitely taking suggestions for new feats, and I would like to know what the playground thinks of me adding a specialized school of neturalization, similar to wizard specialization.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-02-09, 11:41 PM
Righto, let's see what we've got.


Class Skills:
The Neutralizerís skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) *4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier.
Ok, first off, please take everything out of spoilers. People want to see your class. Anyway, on to the class... 4+Int skill points isn't bad. Knowledge (any) is weird; do you mean that players can pick one, or did you want Knowledge (all)? Either way, I feel like you might be better served with just Knowledge (Arcana).


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Neutralizers are proficient with al simple and martial weapons, and with all armor (but not shields)
Why not shields?


Sense Magic
Spot, OK, but why does it help Listen checks? Apart from that, I feel like you might split this up into several abilities, to prevent the wall-of-text feel.


Neutralization
Ah, the big class feature. Things that jump out at me:
It never explicitly says what neutralization does, beyond inflicting damage.
Why not allow him to attempt to neutralize any ongoing spell? That way he can take down battlefield control spells and such.
Do the temporary hit points stack?
Can you use it against spell-like abilities?
There's not even a hint about what the AC you're trying to hit with the ranged touch attack is. To be honest, I'd scrap the attack roll altogether, and stick with just a neutralization check.


Null Strike
What kind of action does this take? Is it a ranged touch attack? In addition to weapon damage? "Screw you, you take damage?"


Spell Resistance:
Technically, once he disables it he can never turn it back on. A better option would be adding text that he can chose to allow any spell he wants to bypass his resistance without taking an action. Also, I feel like he should, at some point, get an ability to treat any spell defeated by his SR as neutralized, giving him temporary hit points and Warp Magic benefits.


Warp Magic
Spell level + the Neutralizer's INT modifier... what? Rounds? Minutes? Weeks? Centuries? And do the effects stack? Can you have multiple effects going at the same time?


Abjuration: gains an AC bonus equal to the amount the check succeeded by.
OK.


Conjuration
That's quite powerful, but OK.


Divination
Ok


Enchantment: The caster is affected as by one of the following spells (no save), based on the level of the neutralized spell: 0th level: daze; 1st level: sleep; 2nd level: touch of idiocy; 3rd level: hold person; 4th level: confusion; 5th level: feeblemind; 6th level: geas/quest; level 7: insanity; 8th level: ottoís irresistible dance; 9th level: dominate monster.
OH GOD NO! This ability needs a save-- all of these abilities are encounter-winning spells. You're not even expending your own resources to do this.


Evocation
Again, a save for half damage would be good.


Illusion:
Quite useful


Necromancy: creates an undead companion, depending on the level of the neutralized spell. 0-2: skeleton. 3-5: ghoul.6-8: shadow. 9: spectre.
What kind of skeleton?


Transmutation
Ok.


Neutralize Trap:
Useful.


Disenchant:
Somewhat useful against high-level NPCs, useless against pretty much anything else. I'd recommend making the check DCs based on the items' caster levels, though.


Consume Magic:
I'm not sure where this is coming from, but a minor boost to one ability score isn't a big deal. You should specify what kind of bonus it is.


Antimagic field:
Pretty sure this shuts off your own abilities, most of which look like supernatural or spell-like (you need to specify that, incidentally).


Overall opinion: It's alright, but it sort of runs out of abilities after 12th level-- every other entry on the table is an incremental improvement. Neutralization is pretty good, but is also only once per round, even at higher levels (one possible avenue for new class features). The two biggest problems are much as before-- it's nearly useless against non-magic opponents, and it doesn't have much in the way of ability to negate a spellcaster's mobility advantage. If a caster is already flying, or has move- or swift-action teleport spells, you're forced to chose between stopping his main offensive spells and letting him get away.

Dimonite
2012-02-10, 10:30 PM
I think I managed to clear most of those things up. Also, I've been thinking about doing something like metamagic for neutralization, or possibly warp magic. Also, I'm not sure how the neutralization fits into the existing system... it's definitely not an SLA, but I don't think it fits too well into supernatural either...

Veklim
2012-02-11, 06:31 AM
It should almost certainly be Ex, as much as that seems crazy and odd, it's the only way to make the magic messing a one way street, to make is Su would make it vulnerable to certain effects. Weirdly enough these guys are essentially controlling minute bursts of antimagic, shame there's no such thing as (-Su) :smalltongue:

Dimonite
2012-02-23, 02:01 PM
New edit: changed warp magic: enchantment: level 1 from "sleep" to "charm person", for a variety of reasons, the primary one being certain smart-alecky elves.

Dimonite
2012-05-14, 07:52 PM
Going long periods of time without updating this is getting to be a habit... my apologies to anyone who cares. Anyway, down to business: I've thought of a couple new feats.

Neutralize Supernatural:
Your skills at stopping magic have grown so great that you can shut down abilities other than those traditionally considered magic.
Prerequisites: Int 20, Neutralizer level 10
Benefit: You may use your neutralization ability on any supernatural ability, with the DC equaling 10+enemy character level or challenge rating, whichever is higher.

Neutral Weapon:
You imbue a weapon with your antimagic abilities
Prerequisites: Disenchant Arms and Armor
Benefit: You can make any weapon with no magical bonuses into a Neutral weapon. This costs 200 XP. When a Neutralizer uses a neutral weapon, he may make 1 extra neutralization check in a round. When this successfully neutralizes a spell, that spell is stored in the sword (which is no longer considered a neutral weapon for the purposes of making extra neutralization checks). The neutralizer may cast this spell at any time, at which point the weapon regains its neutral ability, and the spell is no longer stored in the sword. (note: this also works for a neutralized spell-like ability, but NOT for any neutralized supernatural ability)

Thoughts? questions? concerns? Post posthaste!

Dimonite
2012-09-02, 02:56 PM
Wow. I had about given up on this class, when one of the players in my campaign asked about it.Together, we revamped some of the abilities, and I think we're pretty close to what I want out of the class. As always, any comments or assistance would be much appreciated.

Dimonite
2013-01-22, 10:55 PM
And I think this will be the final set of tweaks before I actually let a character play it in one of my campaigns. As always, comments are appreciated - and I might actually get some this time, since some of those players are being asked to contribute. :smalltongue:

Gnomes2169
2013-01-22, 11:11 PM
Maybe you could add a class skill to the list? Otherwise, I don't really see anything that can be added to the class. It does its job, and it does it beautifully (especially since there are so many creatures and abilities that count as magical in D&D).