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Derjuin
2011-09-18, 11:36 PM
Please note: This is meant to replace the Complete Warrior version of the Swashbuckler, since the book version is pretty much terrible.


The Swashbuckler

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs35/f/2008/237/c/2/Swashbuckler_by_yjianlong.jpg
By Yjian Long


http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/02196_2.gif
By Vriska Serket
:smalltongue:

"Yeah, you can say I know a thing or two about swingin' a sword." ~ Jarvis the Red Rogue



Abilities: The Swashbuckler's most important attributes are Intelligence and Constitution, the former providing bonuses in and out of combat, and the latter allows her to engage in melee combat with less risk of death.

Alignment: Typically some flavor Chaotic, though Lawful Swashbucklers are not uncommon.

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills
The Swashbuckler's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language, Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

The Swashbuckler
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Street Knowledge, Backstab (+1d6)
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Social Savant, Weapon Style
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Parry, Backstab (+2d6)
4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Precision
5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Step into Shadows (2 sizes larger), Backstab (+3d6)
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Riposte
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Duelist's Guile, Backstab (+4d6)
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Improved Weapon Style
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Distraction, Backstab (+5d6)
10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Step into Shadows (1 size larger), Tricks of the Trade
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Duelist's Resolve, Backstab (+6d6)
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Dismantle
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Preparation, Backstab (+7d6), Tricks of the Trade
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Greater Weapon Style
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Step into Shadows (same size), Snap Kick, Backstab (+8d6)
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Master of Anatomy, Tricks of the Trade
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Combat Alertness, Backstab (+9d6)
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Improved Snap Kick, Backstab (+10d6), Tricks of the Trade
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Weapon Style Mastery, Step into Shadows (any size), Tricks of the Trade[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Swashbucklers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and light and medium armor.

Street Knowledge (Ex): A Swashbuckler picks up a lot of stray knowledge while wandering the land and sea and learning stories from others. She may make a special street knowledge check with a bonus equal to her Swashbuckler level + her Intelligence modifier to see whether she knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the Swashbuckler has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), she gains a +2 bonus on this check.) A successful street knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A Swashbuckler may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. The DM can determine the Difficulty Class of the check by referring to the table below.

{table=head]DC|Type of Knowledge|Examples
10|Common, easy to come by|A local mayor's reputation for drinking.
20|Uncommon, few in the area know|A local priest's shady past.
25|Obscure, unknown to most|A knight's family history.
30|Extremely obscure, very hard to come by|A mighty wizard's childhood nickname.[/table]

Backstab (Ex): A Swashbuckler, regardless of his alignment, is at heart a less-than-honorable combatant. Beginning at 1st level, whenever the Swashbuckler strikes a foe that is flanked or is denied its Dex to AC, she deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. At each odd level above 1st, this damage increases by 1d6. Oozes, plants, and elementals are not normally subject to Backstab damage. Attacks of opportunity cannot gain Backstab bonus damage.

Social Savant (Ex): Swashbucklers are chatty, and they use their knowledge of social situations and human emotions and reactions to supplement their charisma. A Swashbuckler adds her Swashbuckler levels as a competence bonus to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Perform, and Sense Motive checks she makes.

Weapon Style (Ex): A Swashbuckler tends to focus on one way of fighting over another, and so two predominant weapon styles have emerged for Swashbucklers to follow: Two and One Weapon fighting styles - also known as the Tempest Style and Einhander. Upon reaching 2nd level, a Swashbuckler chooses her weapon style: either Two-Weapon Fighting, or One Weapon Fighting, and gains the appropriate ability below:

Ambidexterity: A Swashbuckler who chooses the Tempest Style takes advantage of their ambidexterity, and are able to wield weapons in both hands with reduced penalties. While wielding a one-handed weapon in her main hand and a light weapon in her off-hand, the Swashbuckler does not suffer penalties to attacks from fighting with two weapons. In addition, she gains an iterative attack with her off-hand weapon once her Swashbuckler level reaches 6, 11 and again at 16.

Einhander: A Swashbuckler who chooses Einhander takes advantage of their single weapon, allowing them greater focus and precision. While wielding a one-handed weapon in her main hand and nothing in her off-hand, the Swashbuckler may add her Intelligence to her damage with that weapon. In addition, using Power Attack or Combat Expertise yields 2 bonus for every 1 penalty taken (for example, Power Attacking or using Combat Expertise with a -4 penalty yields either +8 damage or +8 AC), up to the Swashbuckler's level.

Regardless of her style choice, the Swashbuckler also gains the Combat Reflexes feat as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Parry (Ex): A Swashbuckler learns to use her weapon to supplement her defenses. Beginning at 3rd level, the Swashbuckler gains a Shield bonus to AC equal to 1/2 her Base Attack Bonus while wielding a weapon.

Precision (Ex): The Swashbuckler learns that every strike counts, especially when fighting in light (or no!) armor to protect her should her strike fail to connect. Beginning at 4th level, the Swashbuckler adds her Intelligence bonus as an Insight bonus to all attacks.

Step into Shadows (Su): The Swashbuckler steps through space to enter a larger creature's shadow, seemingly teleporting behind the creature. Beginning at 5th level, the Swashbuckler may, as a swift action, teleport into a creature's shadow, provided the creature is at least 2 sizes larger than her. At 10th level, the size difference is reduced by 1, and at 15th, it is reduced again, so that she may teleport into the shadow of a creature at least her size. At 20th level, she is able to teleport into the shadow of any creature, no matter how small it is. The Swashbuckler is not limited in the number of times she can teleport into a creature's shadow, but after each teleport she must wait 5 rounds before doing so again.

Riposte (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, the Swashbuckler reacts quickly to attacks made at her person. Once per round, if she is subject to a melee attack that misses (either a standard melee attack or an attack of opportunity), she may gain an Attack of Opportunity against the attacker. This Attack of Opportunity counts against the Swashbuckler's maximum number of Attacks of Opportunity per round.

Duelist's Guile (Ex): The Swashbuckler's style adapts to her opponent, giving her greater and greater insight into her opponent's defenses. Beginning at 7th level, whenever the Swashbuckler misses her opponent with an attack, she gains a stacking +1 bonus to attacks and damage against that opponent, up to a maximum bonus equal to her Swashbuckler level. This bonus is lost at the end of the encounter, or when the Swashbuckler attacks a different opponent.

Improved Weapon Style (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, the Swashbuckler gains a bonus based on her original Weapon Style: if the Swashbuckler chose the Tempest style, she gains the Main Gauche ability; the Swashbuckler chose the Einhander style, she gains the Blade Flurry ability.

Main Gauche: Each time the Swashbuckler makes a successful attack with her main hand, she may make an Attack of Opportunity with her off-hand weapon immediately. This Attack of Opportunity counts against the Swashbuckler's maximum number of Attacks of Opportunity per round as normal. The Swashbuckler does not gain the extra Attacks of Opportunity if she is not wielding a light weapon in her off hand.

Slice and Dice: The Swashbuckler gains the ability to make a full attack at the end of a charge, as long as she is wielding a one-handed weapon in her main hand and nothing in her off-hand. In addition, whenever the Swashbuckler is in combat, she is considered under the effects of a Haste spell.

The Swashbuckler also gains the Quick Draw feat as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Distraction (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the Swashbuckler becomes better at distracting and feinting against her enemies. Once per round, the Swashbuckler may Feint as a move action and add her Base Attack Bonus to the Bluff roll.

Tricks of the Trade (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, the Swashbuckler gains minor benefits from further training and practice in her trade. These tricks range from combat training to skill tricks to survivalist techniques. At 10th level, and every other level above that (12th, 14th, etc., up to 20th), the Swashbuckler gains either a Fighter Bonus Feat (when selecting a Fighter Bonus Feat, the Swashbuckler's effective Fighter level is equal to half her Swashbuckler level), a Skill Trick (see Complete Scoundrel), a Rogue Special Ability (the Swashbuckler's Backstab qualifies as Sneak Attack damage), Evasion or Mettle. The Swashbuckler can only choose the Improved Evasion Rogue Special Ability if she has Evasion from another class or chose it as one of her Tricks of the Trade.

Duelist's Resolve (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, the Swashbuckler is able to temporarily protect her mind from intrusions. Whenever the Swashbuckler is affected by a Mind-affecting ability, she may act as if she were not under the effects of the ability for 1 round. At the end of that round, she gains a second Will save against the ability (if the ability allowed a Will save) to attempt to resist it.

Dismantle (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the Swashbuckler is able to sufficiently expose and distract an assailant to efficiently disarm them. Whenever the Swashbuckler attempts to Disarm a foe that is denied its Dex to AC bonus or is flanked, she treats her weapon as if it were Two-handed and her opponent as if it were wielding a Light weapon.

Preparation (Ex): Beginning at 13th level, the Swashbuckler learns to better apply the information gleaned with Street Knowledge against her adversaries, especially in her preparation to face them - either with sword, or with word. Whenever she successfully makes a Street Knowledge check to find something out about a creature, she gains a bonus on attack and damage rolls, and bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive checks based on the result of her check against that creature.

{table=head]Result|Bonus
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21-25|+3
26-30|+4
31-35|+5
36+|+6[/table]

Greater Weapon Style (Ex): Beginning at 14th level, the Swashbuckler's style improves even further, granting her more capabilities than before based on the original style chosen. If the Swashbuckler chose the Tempest style, she gains Blade Flurry; if she chose the Einhander style, she gains Opportunity.

Blade Flurry: When wielding a one-handed weapon in her main hand and a light weapon in her off-hand, the Swashbuckler may declare a special attack as a standard action called a Blade Flurry. The Swashbuckler may do so once per round, and can must wait 5 rounds after declaring a Blade Flurry before doing so again. While performing a Blade Flurry, the Swashbuckler makes a Full Attack with both of her weapons, and each attack that hits also strikes a second foe within reach.

Opportunity: When wielding a one-handed weapon in her main hand and nothing in her off-hand, the Swashbuckler gains a glint of insight when striking a foe the first time in a round. Each attack after her first automatically qualifies for Backstab damage as long as her opponent is not an Ooze, Plant or Elemental.

Snap Kick (Ex): Beginning at 15th level, the Swashbuckler learns to take advantage of an off-balance opponent with a well-placed kick. Whenever the Swashbuckler strikes a foe and gains Backstab damage against it, she may make an unarmed strike instead of a normal attack against the foe in an attempt to Trip it. She does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity from this unarmed strike, and if successful, she gains a single attack at her highest Attack bonus against the tripped foe.

Master of Anatomy (Ex): Beginning at 16th level, the Swashbuckler can notice flaws in the anatomy of creatures with bizarre structures or magical protections. She may make Backstabs against Plants, Oozes and Elementals as if they were not immune to them, and all Fortitification effects by 25% (to a minimum of 0%).

Combat Alertness (Ex): Beginning at 17th level, the Swashbuckler seems to have a sixth sense regarding hostility and ambushes. The Swashbuckler is always able to act in Surprise rounds, though he has no ability to predict when they will happen.

Improved Snap Kick (Ex): Beginning at 19th level, the Swashbuckler's snap kicks become more powerful, if she so chooses to take advantage of the extra power. She may choose to make an Improved Snap Kick instead of a normal Snap Kick - if she does, an enemy that fails in the opposed Trip roll instead is knocked 10 feet back and falls prone. If the enemy collides with a hard object, it takes damage equal to the Swashbuckler's Backstab bonus and deals as much damage to the object.

Weapon Style Mastery (Ex): Upon mastering her Rapscallious art, the Swashbuckler's combat prowess enhances once more. If she chose the Tempest style, she gains Deadly Momentum; if she chose the Einhander style, she gains Relentless Strikes.

Deadly Momentum: Whenever the Swashbuckler kills a creature with an attack, she may immediately, as a swift action, make use of her Step into Shadows ability to teleport to a new opponent and make a full attack against the opponent. She may only gain the benefit of Deadly Momentum once per round.

Relentless Strikes: Whenever the Swashbuckler strikes a creature that has Damage Reduction that is not negated by her weapon, she gains a bonus attack at her highest Base Attack Bonus against that creature. These bonus attacks do not grant bonus attacks through this ability, but automatically overcome all Damage Reduction an opponent has.

Ilorin Lorati
2011-09-18, 11:41 PM
There is already a WotC class with this name, you may want to consider looking at alternatives to avoid confusion.

Derjuin
2011-09-18, 11:42 PM
There is already a WotC class with this name, you may want to consider looking at alternatives to avoid confusion.

I probably should have mentioned it's meant to replace the Swashbuckler, or at least that archetype, since the CWar version is pretty much horrible. :smalltongue:

Though if other names present themselves, I'm all for changing it. It isn't solidified as a sea-based character, more of a duelist with a guileful bent.

Ilorin Lorati
2011-09-18, 11:43 PM
I probably should have mentioned it's meant to replace the Swashbuckler, or at least that archetype, since the CWar version is pretty much horrible. :smalltongue:

Probably. :p

Seerow
2011-09-19, 12:30 AM
Alright, I'm making notes as I read through the class, not reading it all then posting stuff, so some of this may seem a bit disjointed, sorry.




Why can't backstab be gained on AoOs? Especially since right after you give combat reflexes for free, and I imagine taking AoOs as a big part of being a swashbuckler.

Your einhander style? Buff it. Big time. Seriously you have the choice between Perfect TWFing without spending a single feat, on a full BAB 10d6 sneak attack class... or intelligence to damage? Seriously, just back up and consider: 4 extra attacks vs +Int to damage. Einhander doesn't need to be the stronger style damagewise, but it should have SOMETHING to suggest itself. Maybe as I read further in the class I'll see you had considered this and gave another feature to einhander down the line. But even if that is the case, Einhander needs something better at this point now.

Straight up 1/2 BAB to AC at level 3? This seems like an equivalent to Paladin's divine grace, that is to say: Any character who is remotely interested in either combat style, will want to dip at least 3 levels to pick this up. I'd reword this to half Swashbuckler level, assuming you don't modify it further. Maybe 1/2 BAB in no armor, and 1/4 BAB in light armor, or something to that effect?

Woah when did swashbucklers become shadow dancers? That's kinda cool, but seems kinda awkward for the flavor.

Duelist Guile seems to favor TWFing (another point against Einhander). The cap also seems pretty high, to the point where it almost wouldn't matter against most opponents. Why not just have the ability uncapped, but reset when you do successfully hit the opponent?

Oh hey, there's improved weapon style. Einhander gets a decent ability here... too bad Barbarians got it at level 1. Meanwhile TWFing gets an ability that seems like it's intended to allow offhand attacks on AoOs, but is worded such that you get the extra offhand attack on any attack, meaning hasted attacks, flurry attacks, etc, would get doubled by it. Point goes once again to TWFing. Also, even if that were an accident and TWFing's benefit only applies to AoOs, Einhander is still far behind on the damage front. I mean Einhander now has pounce, but the swashbuckler lacks the strength to take full advantage of the charging maneuvers... I'm really just not sure what it is you're trying to do here with einhander yet.


Huh, is the Swashbuckler really getting a faster rogue special ability progression than the rogue does? With the extra option of trading in for fighter bonus feats? Did I misread that?

Hey, another advanced weapon style.. and the two weapon fighter gets... wow a full attack as a standard action. And that's strike 3 for einhander, I don't even know what it gets, but I'm going to go ahead and say it can't compete with that. *looks further* okay, so Einhander's ability here is actually pretty cool. This is basically what Einhander should have gotten back at level 8 instead of pounce. Now Einhander just needs a decent level 2 and level 14 ability and you're gold!

Hrm... does Snap Kick actually need to be specified as an unarmed attack? I mean, can you just say "After hitting a target with backstab damage, take a free trip attempt" rather than wording it such that it is an unarmed attack but without unarmed penalties etc?

Deadly Arrangements... the part about it allowing you to affect oozes, plants, etc confuses me. Mainly, do you always get half your normal dice against these targets now? Or do you have to attack them once, choose to use deadly arrangements, and then you can apply half dice next turn? Assuming it's the former rather than the latter, it really should just be listed as a separate ability. Also, this ability pretty severely disincentivizes Einhander's one good ability (after hitting once all following hits are backstabs) because now you can almost always guarantee you'll always have backstab up.

Does Improved Snap Kick mean you lose your attack of opportunity for tripping someone if you have improved trip? It seems like this knockback effect is a more niche effect and weaker than the straight up trip if so.


And weapon style mastery... two weapon fighting style this time gets the ability to make an extra full attack any round he drops someone. Einhander gets a single bonus attack that ignores DR.

Let's compare at this time what the two have, now that I'm done getting through the class:

Both:
-Really high to hit bonus. You have enough modifiers for to-hit piled on that you're probably still hitting even on your last attacks.
-10d6 sneak attack

TWFing:
-8 attacks base no penalty (also I just reread the wording of your weapon style, and holy crap anyone who ever wants to TWF will dip this class for at least 2 levels. 4 feats, including 1 epic feat, and negating the additional -2 penalty, all for a 2 level dip. Heck yeah)
-Any successful mainhand attack allows an offhand attack.
-A full attack as a standard action every 5 rounds
-Once per round if you kill an enemy, teleport next to another enemy and make a full attack.

Einhander:
-+Int Mod to damage
-Pounce
-Every attack except the first per round is automatically a backstab
-1 bonus attack that isn't hindered by DR, only when the opponent has DR.


Now, the pattern for TWFing is pretty clear: Lots of attacks, lots of damage. The problem is, your Einhander style is also pretty much nothing but damage, only it's less than half as effective at it. So either Einhander needs a seriously ridiculous buff in damage (as in literally doubling its damage per round and then some, to keep up with TWFing), or it needs to find a different niche.

It could be that Einhander's niche is in combat maneuvers, gaining something like +1/2 level to all combat maneuvers, and gaining extra options with those. (Dropping Feint down to a Swift action for example, so now when you feint, you can full attack, first attack is backstab via feint, rest of the attacks are backstab because einhander).

It could be that it's better at defense, picking up a miss chance, and gaining an improved parry/riposte, and preferably some sort of spell defense, since this class lacks much in that area. A spell parry, or improved saves, or something along those lines could work.

It could be mobility, picking up more frequent uses of shadowstep, and the ability to shadowstep as an immediate action. I was going to suggest a longer range, but apparently there is no range on that ability.

You could even blend the three. Basically, it either needs something other than damage, or it needs a ****ton more damage to keep up with TWFing.

I'd probably go for something like:
Einhander2-Add int mod to damage, and gain a miss chance equal to 20% plus 5% per 5 levels (capping at 40% at level 20)
Einhander8-All attacks you make in a round after the first successful hit allow you to add your backstab damage, and following a successful Riposte, you may use a combat maneuver of your choice
Einhander14-You may use your step into the shadows ability every 4 turns, and your parry bonus to AC may be applied to saving throws against spells. Additionally enemies are treated as Flatfooted against your Riposte attack, and remain flatfooted until the start of your next turn.
Einhander20-Step into the Shadows may now be used every other turn, and may be used as an immediate action.


Probably not perfect, but you get the idea, less damage, more utility. Still good damage mind you, but less than TWFing. Giving each option a clearly defined role, rather than making one option strictly superior in every way.

Derjuin
2011-09-19, 01:12 AM
Alright, I'm making notes as I read through the class, not reading it all then posting stuff, so some of this may seem a bit disjointed, sorry.

Why can't backstab be gained on AoOs? Especially since right after you give combat reflexes for free, and I imagine taking AoOs as a big part of being a swashbuckler.

I was mostly worried about making the TWF option too powerful, because it grants more AoOs than Einhander does.



Your einhander style? Buff it. Big time. Seriously you have the choice between Perfect TWFing without spending a single feat, on a full BAB 10d6 sneak attack class... or intelligence to damage? Seriously, just back up and consider: 4 extra attacks vs +Int to damage. Einhander doesn't need to be the stronger style damagewise, but it should have SOMETHING to suggest itself. Maybe as I read further in the class I'll see you had considered this and gave another feature to einhander down the line. But even if that is the case, Einhander needs something better at this point now.

More on this later.



Straight up 1/2 BAB to AC at level 3? This seems like an equivalent to Paladin's divine grace, that is to say: Any character who is remotely interested in either combat style, will want to dip at least 3 levels to pick this up. I'd reword this to half Swashbuckler level, assuming you don't modify it further. Maybe 1/2 BAB in no armor, and 1/4 BAB in light armor, or something to that effect?

Oops, this was supposed to read 1/2 Swashbuckler level in Light armor.



Woah when did swashbucklers become shadow dancers? That's kinda cool, but seems kinda awkward for the flavor.

It's more for the ability to enter combat quickly, but I went with the idea that they're so guileful they can pop out of someone's shadow to attack them.



Duelist Guile seems to favor TWFing (another point against Einhander). The cap also seems pretty high, to the point where it almost wouldn't matter against most opponents. Why not just have the ability uncapped, but reset when you do successfully hit the opponent?

I was going for that, but I didn't like the way it fluffed - "Oh I've learned so much about my opponent's defenses, now that I've hit him I've got to learn it all again!" Though this could also be fluffed as the enemy taking note of where the Swashbuckler hit them and taking measures against being hit there again.



Oh hey, there's improved weapon style. Einhander gets a decent ability here... too bad Barbarians got it at level 1. Meanwhile TWFing gets an ability that seems like it's intended to allow offhand attacks on AoOs, but is worded such that you get the extra offhand attack on any attack, meaning hasted attacks, flurry attacks, etc, would get doubled by it. Point goes once again to TWFing. Also, even if that were an accident and TWFing's benefit only applies to AoOs, Einhander is still far behind on the damage front. I mean Einhander now has pounce, but the swashbuckler lacks the strength to take full advantage of the charging maneuvers... I'm really just not sure what it is you're trying to do here with einhander yet.

The TWF style doesn't allow offhand attacks on AoOs - it allows you to make an offhand AoO whenever you hit with your main hand. Because it counts toward your total AoOs, you can choose whether or not to make one. Though Einhander's ability was a LOT better when the class had its "Dramatic Entrance" ability, doubling Backstab damage on a Charge against a flat-footed foe. Should I put it back in?



Huh, is the Swashbuckler really getting a faster rogue special ability progression than the rogue does? With the extra option of trading in for fighter bonus feats? Did I misread that?

No, that's how it was intended, though it can be scaled back to be the same progression.



Hey, another advanced weapon style.. and the two weapon fighter gets... wow a full attack as a standard action. And that's strike 3 for einhander, I don't even know what it gets, but I'm going to go ahead and say it can't compete with that. *looks further* okay, so Einhander's ability here is actually pretty cool. This is basically what Einhander should have gotten back at level 8 instead of pounce. Now Einhander just needs a decent level 2 and level 14 ability and you're gold!

Full attack as a standard action every 5 rounds - it has a cooldown listed. And I'll move Opportunity to level 8 if it needs to be.



Hrm... does Snap Kick actually need to be specified as an unarmed attack? I mean, can you just say "After hitting a target with backstab damage, take a free trip attempt" rather than wording it such that it is an unarmed attack but without unarmed penalties etc?

It's only specified as an unarmed attack for flavor reasons - adding in a kick to push someone down, or a quick shove or punch to push them all the way off-balance. It's also worded that way so that Improved Snap Kick makes a little more sense.



Deadly Arrangements... the part about it allowing you to affect oozes, plants, etc confuses me. Mainly, do you always get half your normal dice against these targets now? Or do you have to attack them once, choose to use deadly arrangements, and then you can apply half dice next turn? Assuming it's the former rather than the latter, it really should just be listed as a separate ability. Also, this ability pretty severely disincentivizes Einhander's one good ability (after hitting once all following hits are backstabs) because now you can almost always guarantee you'll always have backstab up.

It's supposed to allow Backstab damage vs. oozes/plants/elementals all the time. The issue with Einhander is that Einhander does not lose 1/2 its Backstab dice in order to get Backstab damage in the next round - it just has to make a successful attack. TWF has to give up half its Backstab dice per round to guarantee Backstab damage every round.



Does Improved Snap Kick mean you lose your attack of opportunity for tripping someone if you have improved trip? It seems like this knockback effect is a more niche effect and weaker than the straight up trip if so.


Yes, you lose the AoO for tripping; I'll put that in. The knockback effect is more niche, that's why it's optional to take it.



And weapon style mastery... two weapon fighting style this time gets the ability to make an extra full attack any round he drops someone. Einhander gets a single bonus attack that ignores DR.


Einhander gets a bonus attack at full BAB for each attack that hits that is reduced by DR. If your first attack in the round hits and is reduced by DR, and then your 3 other attacks hit as well, you get 8 attacks that round - 7 of them have Backstab dice, and 4 of them ignore all DR. It is phrased that way to make sure someone doesn't try to get infinite attacks out of it, by saying their bonus attacks trigger more bonus attacks.



Let's compare at this time what the two have, now that I'm done getting through the class:

Both:
-Really high to hit bonus. You have enough modifiers for to-hit piled on that you're probably still hitting even on your last attacks.
-10d6 sneak attack

TWFing:
-8 attacks base no penalty (also I just reread the wording of your weapon style, and holy crap anyone who ever wants to TWF will dip this class for at least 2 levels. 4 feats, including 1 epic feat, and negating the additional -2 penalty, all for a 2 level dip. Heck yeah)
-Any successful mainhand attack allows an offhand attack.
-A full attack as a standard action every 5 rounds
-Once per round if you kill an enemy, teleport next to another enemy and make a full attack.

Einhander:
-+Int Mod to damage
-Pounce
-Every attack except the first per round is automatically a backstab
-1 bonus attack that isn't hindered by DR, only when the opponent has DR.

Now, the pattern for TWFing is pretty clear: Lots of attacks, lots of damage. The problem is, your Einhander style is also pretty much nothing but damage, only it's less than half as effective at it. So either Einhander needs a seriously ridiculous buff in damage (as in literally doubling its damage per round and then some, to keep up with TWFing), or it needs to find a different niche.

It could be that Einhander's niche is in combat maneuvers, gaining something like +1/2 level to all combat maneuvers, and gaining extra options with those. (Dropping Feint down to a Swift action for example, so now when you feint, you can full attack, first attack is backstab via feint, rest of the attacks are backstab because einhander).

It could be that it's better at defense, picking up a miss chance, and gaining an improved parry/riposte, and preferably some sort of spell defense, since this class lacks much in that area. A spell parry, or improved saves, or something along those lines could work.

It could be mobility, picking up more frequent uses of shadowstep, and the ability to shadowstep as an immediate action. I was going to suggest a longer range, but apparently there is no range on that ability.

You could even blend the three. Basically, it either needs something other than damage, or it needs a ****ton more damage to keep up with TWFing.

I'd probably go for something like:
Einhander2-Add int mod to damage, and gain a miss chance equal to 20% plus 5% per 5 levels (capping at 40% at level 20)
Einhander8-All attacks you make in a round after the first successful hit allow you to add your backstab damage, and following a successful Riposte, you may use a combat maneuver of your choice
Einhander14-You may use your step into the shadows ability every 4 turns, and your parry bonus to AC may be applied to saving throws against spells. Additionally enemies are treated as Flatfooted against your Riposte attack, and remain flatfooted until the start of your next turn.
Einhander20-Step into the Shadows may now be used every other turn, and may be used as an immediate action.


Probably not perfect, but you get the idea, less damage, more utility. Still good damage mind you, but less than TWFing. Giving each option a clearly defined role, rather than making one option strictly superior in every way.

I'll reintroduce Dramatic Entrance (double backstab damage on Surprise rounds) as one of Einhander's abilities, and probably change the wording on some things to make it stricter on multiclassing - specifically for TWF dipping.

I'll give some looking over to making Einhander a more utility option, too - that might be a better way to go.

The Underlord
2011-09-19, 07:32 AM
So you can backstaab outsider, undead, and constructs? I like, they are pretty common at higher levels. Also I am with Seerow, the TWF style is a lot more powerful than einhander,

Grod_The_Giant
2011-09-19, 02:55 PM
I can't help feeling like this class is really strong, especially the TWF variant. We're looking at probably close to a dozen attacks per round-- with an intelligence bonus-- AND backstab damage.

paddyfool
2011-09-19, 07:29 PM
You may also find this fix interesting. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155012&highlight=swashbuckler)

Trevor Bright
2016-07-30, 03:23 PM
What did you not like about the book version? :mitd: