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whitehelm
2011-09-02, 05:12 PM
I've got a question for the Shortening:

The backstory card Doesn't Get Sidetracked awards points for ending a turn in a Xykon's Lair room that isn't Safe Haven. However, if you're playing with Wandering Xykon then there is no Xykon's Lair, making it impossible to get those points. Should that card just be replaced at the beginning of the game?

glowface
2011-09-09, 05:19 AM
I just got the Shortening!
Looks great, and interesting. I have one important concern, however.

Why would the Helium Elemental be an exploding monster? Helium is a meek, inert, non-combustible gas, as noble as the posher Xenons. There is a reason Helium is used in children's baloons. The go pop, at worst, not explode! This terrible, elementist misrepresentation of this friendly gas significantly reduces the product value for me.

:smallwink:

prj
2011-09-14, 01:50 AM
Some questions about the Shortening. Hopefully the Giant or apegamer will chime in on the intent questions.

No Turning Back:

If there are two sets of stairs down from floor X to floor X+1, and floor X+1 has reached 8 rooms without connecting the two segments, then players on the side that doesn't connect to the next floor down are allowed to move upwards to come back down the right way, right?
If I lose my last wound, after missing my turn, do I heal automatically? Am I required to rest or get cured as soon as possible, or can I keep playing without healing? What happens if I lose another wound before I get a chance to heal?

Wandering Xykon:

Is killing Xykon no longer worth any X's?
The I Hurt Xykon cards mention Xykon returning to his Throne Room. That should say Safe Haven, right?
Once Xykon's attention is caught and his move token is put in the Safe Haven, does he first move on that same turn, or starting after that player's next turn?
Is Xykon subject to any room effects that normally affect players, such as A Dark Room or The Room With All The Spikes? What about Explosive Runes?
If all players who are not holding I Got My Ass Kicked By Xykon are camping out in the Dungeon Entrance, how does Xykon move? Would he head toward the Dungeon Entrance and camp out in the first room of the dungeon until one of the players reenters the dungeon?
Since Xykon's choice of who to battle uses the number of shticks as a tiebreaker, should his decision of where to move also use that? Less significant than distance and the choice of floor, but more significant than the die roll?
The rules say you can attack Xykon "as you would initiate a Player vs. Player battle." A strict reading would imply that you can't choose to attack Xykon if there is also a monster stack in the room. Is that the intent, or should I be allowed to fight Xykon instead of the room's stack?
If a room contains Xykon but no monster stack, can I pick up loot there? The rules don't prohibit it, but I'm guessing that's an oversight.
If I attack Xykon's stack with Turn Undead, do I have to turn in I Got My Ass Kicked By Xykon even though I can't actually defeat Xykon himself?
The rules say Xykon is immune to multi-wound shticks. In the case of a successful Area Effect attack that also targets an Exploding monster, is Xykon also immune to the explosion, or can he take a second wound that way?
Can Poorly-Planned Illusion move monsters out of Xykon's minion stack? If so, do they have to be moved into neighboring rooms, or can they be moved from the minion stack into the same room Xykon is in?


New shticks:

Take Yer Medicine: can Durkon use this to heal a player who is already at full health? Can it only be used on his own turn?
The Hope of Returning Home: does this override the requirements of Broken Weapon/Turned Into a Newt/Hysterical Aphasia?
Friendly Fire(ball): does the copy that V is currently using and flipping get counted as one of the face-up copies?
Carry Along: if Roy explores a new room, does the carried player also encounter one-time room effects, such as A Room with a Motivational Poster or The Corridor of Very Toxic Sulfur Fumes?
Petty Threats: I'm guessing this is supposed to hold only one Screw This card at a time, but it doesn't actually say that. If it can hold multiple cards, can they be played simultaneously with a single flip of the shtick, or only one at a time?
Personification of Self-Loathing: does this take effect before the trap/battle resolution? In particular, can Haley save herself from losing her last wound?
Grand Theft: Your Stuff: can this be unflipped while it is placed in a room, either by resting or by other means? Haley would still have to wait until it was returned to her to before using it again, right?

Hamiltonz
2011-09-19, 02:36 AM
Is Xykon a Monster and/or a Player

Does Xykon trigger Explosive Runes

Does he take Damage from Explosive Runes

Is he a valid target for the Screw This card named Surprise!

Is he a valid Monster target

Is he a valid Player target


Can Durkon offer to heal Xykon


Can Xykon accept healing from Durkon


While Xykon is retreating towards the Safe Haven

Does he stop movement if he encounters a player


Does he attack a player if his movement ends in a room with a player


When using the variant rule No Turing Back and a player has lost his last wound


Do all wounds heal?

Do all Shticks unflip?

Do the effects of "Broken Weapon/Hysterical Aphasia/Turned into a Newt" end?
Does Durkon's Shtick The Hope of Returing Home end those effects


When does the above happen:
Immediately, when he drops half of his Loot?


Later, after he has missed a turn?


On the skipped turn is he treated as being Paralyzed or Fleeing?

Is he a valid target for PvP


Is he a valid target for Xykon

The Giant
2011-09-19, 05:27 PM
Is Xykon a Monster and/or a Player

Wandering Xykon is a Monster, not a player. He follows all the rules for Monsters except for those that relate to his movement and other unique capabilities.

That makes most of the next few answers obvious, but I'll go through them anyway:


Does Xykon trigger Explosive Runes

No. Only players can trigger Explosive Runes.


Does he take Damage from Explosive Runes

No. Only players take damage from Explosive Runes.


Is he a valid target for the Screw This card named Surprise!

Yes, because he is a Monster. Note that the part where the Monster is "saved as normal" means that you only get to save Xykon if you are taking his last Wound, because that is what is "normal" for Wandering Xykon.


Is he a valid Monster target

Yes. You can target him with anything that targets a Monster that does not specify "except Xykon" or is listed under the "Xykon Special" Monster ability.


Is he a valid Player target

No. You may not target him with anything that targets a player unless it also can target a Monster.


Can Durkon offer to heal Xykon
Can Xykon accept healing from Durkon

No. Durkon can only heal players.

-----------------


While Xykon is retreating towards the Safe Haven
Does he stop movement if he encounters a player

No. The new movement pattern of moving directly toward the Safe Haven replaces all of the previous movement directions for Xykon, including the one about stopping when he encounters a player.


Does he attack a player if his movement ends in a room with a player

Yes. Per the rules, "When Xykon ends his movement in a room with one or more players, he Attacks them."

-----------------


When using the variant rule No Turing Back and a player has lost his last wound

Do all wounds heal?

When does the above happen:
Immediately, when he drops half of his Loot?
Later, after he has missed a turn?

Yes; when they begin their next turn (after missing one), they start with a fresh set of Wounds.


On the skipped turn is he treated as being Paralyzed or Fleeing?

Fleeing.


Is he a valid target for PvP

No; treat the character as if they were fleeing the dungeon (except don't move them).


Is he a valid target for Xykon

No. Wandering Xykon will ignore them as if they were fleeing the dungeon.


Do all Shticks unflip?

No. You would need to rest in order to unflip shticks.


Do the effects of "Broken Weapon/Hysterical Aphasia/Turned into a Newt" end?

Hadn't thought about that, but sure, that's fair.


Does Durkon's Shtick The Hope of Returing Home end those effects

Yes and no. It unflips them, meaning that they can be used again, but it does not discard the Screw This! card. So if they become flipped again, they remain flipped. Although there's no reason you can't use Hope of Returning Home to unflip it again, indefinitely.

The Giant
2011-09-19, 05:36 PM
I've got a question for the Shortening:

The backstory card Doesn't Get Sidetracked awards points for ending a turn in a Xykon's Lair room that isn't Safe Haven. However, if you're playing with Wandering Xykon then there is no Xykon's Lair, making it impossible to get those points. Should that card just be replaced at the beginning of the game?

Yes, but the easiest way to do it is to not worry about it unless someone draws that Backstory. Just let them discard it and draw another one.


I just got the Shortening!
Looks great, and interesting. I have one important concern, however.

Why would the Helium Elemental be an exploding monster? Helium is a meek, inert, non-combustible gas, as noble as the posher Xenons. There is a reason Helium is used in children's baloons. The go pop, at worst, not explode! This terrible, elementist misrepresentation of this friendly gas significantly reduces the product value for me.

"Exploding" does not necessarily imply a fiery conflagration. In this case, the Helium Elemental makes everyone's voices so high and squeaky that they fall over laughing and die suddenly due to undiagnosed heart malformations. :smalltongue:

The Giant
2011-09-19, 06:21 PM
Some questions about the Shortening. Hopefully the Giant or apegamer will chime in on the intent questions.

No Turning Back:

If there are two sets of stairs down from floor X to floor X+1, and floor X+1 has reached 8 rooms without connecting the two segments, then players on the side that doesn't connect to the next floor down are allowed to move upwards to come back down the right way, right?

Sure.


If I lose my last wound, after missing my turn, do I heal automatically? Am I required to rest or get cured as soon as possible, or can I keep playing without healing? What happens if I lose another wound before I get a chance to heal?

Answered in my first post on this thread. Note that you cannot lose Wounds by any means while you are in the middle of missing that turn.


Wandering Xykon:

Is killing Xykon no longer worth any X's?

No, he's still worth two X's. They should be listed on his large Character Card.


The I Hurt Xykon cards mention Xykon returning to his Throne Room. That should say Safe Haven, right?

Yes; an early version of the rules included a new version of Xykon's Throne Room specifically for Wandering Xykon instead of just using Safe Haven, and I guess we never caught the change on those cards.


Once Xykon's attention is caught and his move token is put in the Safe Haven, does he first move on that same turn, or starting after that player's next turn?

His first turn occurs immediately after the turn in which his attention is caught.


Is Xykon subject to any room effects that normally affect players, such as A Dark Room or The Room With All The Spikes? What about Explosive Runes?

As above, Xykon is a Monster that moves, not a player. He is unaffected by Room text that specifies players.


If all players who are not holding I Got My Ass Kicked By Xykon are camping out in the Dungeon Entrance, how does Xykon move? Would he head toward the Dungeon Entrance and camp out in the first room of the dungeon until one of the players reenters the dungeon?

No, in that event, Xykon would stand still until someone re-entered the dungeon.


Since Xykon's choice of who to battle uses the number of shticks as a tiebreaker, should his decision of where to move also use that? Less significant than distance and the choice of floor, but more significant than the die roll?

You can certainly institute that as a houserule if you wish, but by the rules, it should be distance, deeper floor, then random die roll. Xykon doesn't know who's the strongest unless he's looking right at them.


The rules say you can attack Xykon "as you would initiate a Player vs. Player battle." A strict reading would imply that you can't choose to attack Xykon if there is also a monster stack in the room. Is that the intent, or should I be allowed to fight Xykon instead of the room's stack?

Yes, obviously the presence of Monsters in this case is an exception to the rule that you can't initiate PVP when there are Monsters present, because Xykonn is himself a Monster and it would be impossible to attack him at all otherwise.

However, to clarify: When Xykon and his Minion Stack are in a room with existing face-up Monsters, there is no difference between his stack and the stack in the room. Xykon is treated as being part of the room's stack, as are all the Monsters that are following him. Think of it as one large stack with Xykon at the top, all of his Minion Stack in order beneath him, and the entire face-up Monster stack in the room beneath them.


If a room contains Xykon but no monster stack, can I pick up loot there? The rules don't prohibit it, but I'm guessing that's an oversight.

A room containing Xykon does contain Monsters, because Xykon is a Monster. Therefore, no, you may not pick up Loot.


If I attack Xykon's stack with Turn Undead, do I have to turn in I Got My Ass Kicked By Xykon even though I can't actually defeat Xykon himself?

Yes. Your chance of victory (in this case, nil) is not a determining factor in whether or not you must turn in the "I Got My Ass Kicked By Xykon" card. If you initiate an Attack that targets Xykon, you must turn in the card. (The card represents whether or not Xykon considers you a threat, and if you try to turn him, he'll consider you a threat even if you don't have a chance of succeeding.)

Note, however, that if you initiate an Attack that targets cards from his Minion Stack but does not include Xykon, you do not need to turn in the card.


The rules say Xykon is immune to multi-wound shticks. In the case of a successful Area Effect attack that also targets an Exploding monster, is Xykon also immune to the explosion, or can he take a second wound that way?

He can take a second Wound that way, because that is a separate Wound source.


Can Poorly-Planned Illusion move monsters out of Xykon's minion stack?
If so, do they have to be moved into neighboring rooms, or can they be moved from the minion stack into the same room Xykon is in?

Yes, they can be moved from the Minion Stack. They must be moved to neighboring rooms because they are all considered the same stack while Xykon is present in the room.
[/LIST]


New shticks:

Take Yer Medicine: can Durkon use this to heal a player who is already at full health?

No. No one can ever have more than 4 Wounds.


Can it only be used on his own turn?

No, it may be used at any time, even during another player's turn.


The Hope of Returning Home: does this override the requirements of Broken Weapon/Turned Into a Newt/Hysterical Aphasia?

Answered in my first post on this thread. SHort answer: "Sort of."


Friendly Fire(ball): does the copy that V is currently using and flipping get counted as one of the face-up copies?

Yes, because the flipping of Battle Shticks does not occur until after the battle is concluded (Step 7, "Aftermath" in the core rules.


Carry Along: if Roy explores a new room, does the carried player also encounter one-time room effects, such as A Room with a Motivational Poster or The Corridor of Very Toxic Sulfur Fumes?

Yes, because they are affected by any card that affects all players in the same room.


Petty Threats: I'm guessing this is supposed to hold only one Screw This card at a time, but it doesn't actually say that. If it can hold multiple cards, can they be played simultaneously with a single flip of the shtick, or only one at a time?

It should only allow one Screw This! card at a time.


Personification of Self-Loathing: does this take effect before the trap/battle resolution? In particular, can Haley save herself from losing her last wound?

Yes, it happens immediately, before any other effect and before the trap/battle resolution. Strictly speaking, it happens as part of Step 5, "Make an Attack/Defense Roll," while losing a Wound doesn't happen until Step 6, "Apply Results."


Grand Theft: Your Stuff: can this be unflipped while it is placed in a room, either by resting or by other means? Haley would still have to wait until it was returned to her to before using it again, right?

No, it cannot be unflipped while it remains in a room, and she does not get it back until the Monster is defeated or would otherwise drop Loot. Note that because all Monsters disappear and drop their Loot when Xykon is beaten, she automatically will get her shtick back at that time if she hasn't already.

prj
2011-09-20, 01:04 AM
Thanks for all the responses!


However, to clarify: When Xykon and his Minion Stack are in a room with existing face-up Monsters, there is no difference between his stack and the stack in the room. Xykon is treated as being part of the room's stack

Ok, so if I enter that room, or make a ranged attack into it, I don't have a choice of which monster to fight--I have to fight Xykon.


He can take a second Wound that way, because that is a separate Wound source.

In that case (Area Effect+Explosive), would I get two "I Hurt Xykon" cards? Or just one, with the other card going to nobody?


No. No one can ever have more than 4 Wounds.

I figured that much--if Cure is boosted but the target has lost only one wound, they would heal only one--but I was wondering if Cure can be likewise be applied to someone at full health, with no effect other than loot changing hands. Can that happen voluntarily? Can it happen with Take Yer Medicine?


Yes, because they are affected by any card that affects all players in the same room.

Well, the one-time room effects are stated to apply to "the first player who enters the room", not "all players in the room when it is first explored". Maybe let Roy decide whether to Carry Along the other player behind or ahead of himself to determine who gets affected, but he has to decide before entering the room?


It (Petty Threats) should only allow one Screw This! card at a time.

Does that mean having only one card stored at a time? Or playing only one stored card at a time?

Hamiltonz
2011-09-20, 05:04 AM
Great game! I can't get enough of it. Seriously, I think people are avoiding my game night simply because I want to play the game so much!





Is [Xykon] a valid [Player] target for the Screw This card named Surprise!

No. You may not target him with anything that targets a player unless it also can target a Monster.


Dang, I really wanted to make Redcloak attack Xykon. There is nothing but 'win' there. Oh well, it would be a rather cheesy hack and not really in the spirit of the game.





[When using the variant rule No Turing Back...when a player is no longer 'fleeing']
Do the effects of "Broken Weapon/Hysterical Aphasia/Turned into a Newt" end?

Hadn't thought about that, but sure, that's fair.


Great! Otherwise those Screw This cards would (effectively) permanently remove the targeted stick from play.





[When the Screw This card "Broken Weapon/Hysterical Aphasia/Turned into a Newt" on one of Durokon's Shticks]
Does Durokon's Shtick The Hope of Returning Home end those effects

Yes and no. It unflips them, meaning that they can be used again, but it does not discard the Screw This! card. So if they become flipped again, they remain flipped. Although there's no reason you can't use Hope of Returning Home to unflip it again, indefinitely.


I'm confused. Does this mean that when a weapon is broken: All shticks for that weapon become flipped, All shticks for that weapon that come into play start out flipped, but if somehow one of the cards becomes unflipped then the weapon is useable again? That seems incorrect. Until now I assumed that as long as the Screw This card was 'on' the weapon no shtick for that weapon could be used.

[pause, think, think]

OH! they IMMEDIATELY flip again, because of the effect of the Screw This card, BONK!

Thanks for the feedback. It was very much appreciated. :biggrin:

prj
2011-09-20, 08:47 AM
Does this mean that when a weapon is broken: All shticks for that weapon become flipped, All shticks for that weapon that come into play start out flipped,

I had asked about new copies of the flipped shtick once before, but I don't think there was ever an official answer.


but if somehow one of the cards becomes unflipped then the weapon is useable again?

Yes, that seems to be what Rich is saying. Durkon's hope is so strong, it reforges iron, makes the dumb speak, and recharges mana! But if that one gets flipped again, by any means, then Broken Weapon/Hysterical Aphasia/Turned Into a Newt applies to it again, so it can't be unflipped again except by exiting the dungeon or by unflipping Hope of Returning Home and reusing that. Durkon's hope is strong, but gives in to despair before long.


Until now I assumed that as long as the Screw This card was 'on' the weapon no shtick for that weapon could be used.

Until the Shortening, that was true (except possibly for drawing new copies, no official word on that yet), because previously there was no way to unflip a Broken Weapon except by exiting the dungeon.

The Giant
2011-09-20, 02:40 PM
Ok, so if I enter that room, or make a ranged attack into it, I don't have a choice of which monster to fight--I have to fight Xykon.

Correct.


In that case (Area Effect+Explosive), would I get two "I Hurt Xykon" cards? Or just one, with the other card going to nobody?

The latter.


I figured that much--if Cure is boosted but the target has lost only one wound, they would heal only one--but I was wondering if Cure can be likewise be applied to someone at full health, with no effect other than loot changing hands. Can that happen voluntarily? Can it happen with Take Yer Medicine?

No, the Loot is "in exchange" per the card text. If no Wounds are healed, no Loot changes hands.

However, if two players want to voluntarily pass Loot back and forth while on the same floor, I would generally allow it anyway. But that's sort of "unofficial."


Well, the one-time room effects are stated to apply to "the first player who enters the room", not "all players in the room when it is first explored". Maybe let Roy decide whether to Carry Along the other player behind or ahead of himself to determine who gets affected, but he has to decide before entering the room?

I'm going to base this on the art and say that Roy is always the "first" player into the room, for good or ill.


Does that mean having only one card stored at a time? Or playing only one stored card at a time?

Both. One card stored, one card played.

The Giant
2011-09-20, 02:44 PM
I'm confused. Does this mean that when a weapon is broken: All shticks for that weapon become flipped, All shticks for that weapon that come into play start out flipped, but if somehow one of the cards becomes unflipped then the weapon is useable again? That seems incorrect. Until now I assumed that as long as the Screw This card was 'on' the weapon no shtick for that weapon could be used.

[pause, think, think]

OH! they IMMEDIATELY flip again, because of the effect of the Screw This card, BONK!

Not quite. Think of Broken Weapon as having two discrete powers:

1.) The ability to flip a Battle Shtick when it comes into play.
2.) The ability to keep a flipped Battle Shtick flipped until you reach the Dungeon Entrance.

The only time the Broken Weapon card can actively flip a shtick is the moment it comes into play. Therefore, if an effect unflips that shtick, the Broken Weapon does not have the legal power to reflip it. But if it us unflipped and then subsequently reflipped by some other means, then Broken Weapon again holds it in the flipped position.

MaxSilver
2011-10-01, 02:46 PM
Just want to be sure I'm reading this right.

The Xykon card has a "-level" on his stats. The original monster card version was a plus instead, so I wasn't sure if this was intentional or not. I'm assuming this reads that he gets a little stronger as he moves up the dungeon and a little weaker as he moves down back to the safe haven?

The Giant
2011-10-01, 09:28 PM
Just want to be sure I'm reading this right.

The Xykon card has a "-level" on his stats. The original monster card version was a plus instead, so I wasn't sure if this was intentional or not. I'm assuming this reads that he gets a little stronger as he moves up the dungeon and a little weaker as he moves down back to the safe haven?

Correct. It's to discourage the "Everyone hole up in near the Dungeon Entrance" plan, and to encourage people to follow him down and finish him off.

Fedifensor
2011-10-02, 04:25 PM
In Medias Res seems a bit unbalanced, as the randomness can lead to one player drawing three schticks that all complement their starting ones, and another getting three useless schticks. What you start with has a huge effect on getting things moving at the beginning of the game.

One option I'm considering is to have everyone start with all six of their red-bordered schticks instead of drawing random ones. This is a bit unfair to Roy, as two of his six are for the endgame - one boosts him when fighting Xykon, the other gives him 1 extra Bragging Right (the worse schtick ever, at least to start the game with). However, since Roy is generally considered the most effective character (and the Xykon schtick is very useful with Wandering Xykon) it's an acceptable option. Has anyone tried this?

prj
2011-10-03, 04:06 AM
In Medias Res seems a bit unbalanced, as the randomness can lead to one player drawing three schticks that all complement their starting ones, and another getting three useless schticks.

Before the shortening came out, I took a stab at solving that problem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3662038#post3662038) in an old thread here:


A straightforward way to speed up the game is to give everyone more shticks and loot to start with. But drawing shticks randomly doesn't give a very good balance. I came up with some sets of extra shticks - two sets of three for each character. In addition to three of the four standard starting shticks, each player chooses one set of three extra shticks, depending on their preferred style of play with their assigned character.

The Giant
2011-10-03, 08:35 PM
The variants are considered optional or experimental, so if you don't think they're balanced, don't use them. Or come up with your own versions. They're there more as prompts to thinking about what you could do than hard-and-fast rules.

But discussion of balance is not a rules question, so this is not the thread for it.

Thufir
2011-10-05, 08:28 PM
In the rules for Wandering Xykon, it says that as he moves through the dungeon he adds all Undead and Goblins to his minion stack.
But, Xykon's character card has him supported only by Undead, not Undead and Goblins as in the original game, so adding Goblins to his minion stack doesn't actually grant him any benefit.

Is there a mistake in either of these points? Because as it is, I'm not sure it makes sense.

The Giant
2011-10-06, 09:14 PM
Hmmm. I think that's an editing mistake. Originally, Wandering Xykon was going to be supported by both, just like original Xykon. But Goblins are so populous that he ended up sucking up piles of 5-10 enemies at a time.

Well, you can either play it so that it's just Undead and ignore that one line, or you can have Xykon carry along a bunch of Goblin sycophants that don't actually help him. It would certainly serve to break up any large goblin stacks along the way, which would in turn help the game go even faster.

But our final intent was to keep it only Undead.

Dr.Gunsforhands
2011-10-08, 03:19 PM
I was going to ask whether Xykon was immune to the Exploding ability, but it turns out that the rules sheet says it only affects non-unique monsters.

It then occurred to me that I do not know what uniqueness actually does, and I couldn't find any reference to it. Are there any actual rules associated with it, or is it just a designation that anti-shenanigan clauses can refer to easily?

PePe QuiCoSE
2011-10-12, 05:10 PM
I'm pretty sure Unique means that there can be only 1 copy of the character/monster in play (you discard the one already in play and put the new one). One example is Redcloak, which has a regular monster version and a special Xykon's lair one. This rule was also to address the Linear Guild expansion (when it was eventually released) which would come with copies from both playable Linear Guild and BattleDeck OoTS.

Mictlan
2011-10-14, 09:27 AM
One question about a couple of cards. Is it intended that The Mad Bomber and Hank provide support to so little cards?

There are just 2 other monsters for the mad bomber, and there is no other halfing.

Is this a foreshadow of expansion packs of the future? (duhn.....duhn....DUHN!!!!)

The Giant
2011-10-14, 11:30 PM
One question about a couple of cards. Is it intended that The Mad Bomber and Hank provide support to so little cards?

There are just 2 other monsters for the mad bomber, and there is no other halfing.

Is this a foreshadow of expansion packs of the future? (duhn.....duhn....DUHN!!!!)

Demon Roaches still support both characters. As far as "why," it's because we thought it would be more interesting for there to be variety then for every monster to be supported by the same few types.

Also, you can make a nasty surprise for another player by using the Monster Team-Up card to swap out the uncommon Dwarf or Halfling type for something more common, like Goblins, after they've committed to the battle.

Plus, you could also make a house rule that players count as being the species listed on their Character Card for support purposes (Human, Elf, Dwarf, or Halfling) for monsters that they themselves are not fighting. This would mean (for example) that Durkon would count as support for the Mad Bomber whenever they were on the same floor, unless he was personally battling him.

Sermil
2011-12-26, 01:13 AM
I just got the deluxe edition for Christmas. Fun! But we did have trouble with the "Exploding" ability. Do monster killed by Exploding count as defeated? Do they drop Loot? Does the current player get to keep them for use as Experience Points (red Xs)? Do their "when Defeated" abilities trigger?

Example:
On the 3rd level, I have a room with Hak-Tonog the Incontinent (Exploding, 1 Loot, 1 X), Doc of the Dead (Encourage, 1 Loot, 1 X), and Ugly Ogre (1 Loot, 1 X). Roy :roy: moves in and wins the battle against Hak-Tonog.

Hak-Tonog explodes and kills all the monsters. Now, does Roy get to keep all three monster cards (and turn them in for a new schtick at the end of his turn) or just Hak-Tonog? Is there now 3 Loot or 1 Loot in the room? Does Roy get healed by Doc of the Dead's Encourage?

And if Roy DOES get healed by the Encourage, can he heal the wound from the Exploding?

Thanks!

Sermil
2011-12-27, 09:28 PM
Also... Is it just me, or did the Shortening REALLY overpower :elan: Elan? Before, he started with the pretty weak X-Treme Diplomacy as his main weapon; just a +1 defense. Now, he can start with the Rapier, which has +3 defense! Since most of what you want in the early game is defense (since you use it each time you explore a new room), it seems like he's actually better than :roy: Roy at battling monsters when he starts. That just seems.... wrong. He's supposed to be good at getting Loot for Bard Song, not tearing through monsters himself.

We've been considering a house rule to forbid :elan: Elan from taking the Rapier as a starting shtick.

Wanderlust
2012-03-01, 10:05 AM
It makes him as good as Haley w/ sneak attack at defending right off the bat, but it doesn't increase as well as other characters when boosted. Also, many times players in my group will stick with the X-treme diplomacy because it is a verbal shtick and therefore allows access to a different set of monsters than another weapon shtick. Picking the rapier might be nice with the +3 defense, but it puts you in the same boat as Roy when confronted with impervious or flying monsters.

MaxSilver
2012-03-01, 12:07 PM
The description for Exploding in the rules set (which is not in front of me atm) says to the effect that neither the exploding critter nor any of the other critters can be saved. I don't think it refers to loot; we'd been playing that the loot still drops. Exploding can be a good way to deny someone a ton of xp later in the game.

In fact, I think we had a case last time where we were playing a standard game with the expansion cards and some of the variant rules where someone played an exploding AND charging monster in Xykon's room. We decided that meant no one got the bragging rights for Xykon. (wish I could remember what monster that was)

Wanderlust
2012-03-01, 04:31 PM
We also play so that loot drops but nobody gets the XP. Which is weird since at least one of those exploding guys is worth an X, and I can't think of a way you'd ever get to cash in on it.

Regarding the same topic of exploding monsters, I don't have the rules in front of me but I seem to recall someone saying that exploding monsters don't affect unique monsters, but in an earlier thread Rich had said that you could do 2 points of damage to Xykon using an area attack such as fireball that targets both Xykon and an exploding monster. I'll have to check the wording on that again, but I would probably houserule that the exploding damage affects Xykon since he has multiple wounds, however other unique monsters (LG, Redclock, etc) would be immune so that they couldn't be knocked out that easily.

MaxSilver
2012-03-01, 04:41 PM
We also play so that loot drops but nobody gets the XP. Which is weird since at least one of those exploding guys is worth an X, and I can't think of a way you'd ever get to cash in

About the only way we thought of was to use "I forgot they could do that" to take away the Exploding trait. :)

The Giant
2012-03-03, 02:15 AM
Sorry I missed this question about Exploding but:

As mentioned, the rulesheet explicitly states that neither the Exploding Monster or any of the Monsters hit with the Wound may be saved, either for their red X's or for completing Backstories. They do, however, still drop Loot when they die.

Abilities that take place when a Monster is "defeated" only apply for the Exploding Monster, since it is the only one being actually defeated in battle. So the Encourage ability would not come into play if the Monster with it died in the explosion, but it WOULD come into play if the Exploding Monster had it (not that I think we made any monsters with that combo, but still).

Unique monsters CAN be hit with the Explosion ability by the rules, but it is an entirely reasonable house rule to say that they can't. It just might lengthen your endgame, which is not what we wanted for The Shortening.


Also... Is it just me, or did the Shortening REALLY overpower :elan: Elan? Before, he started with the pretty weak X-Treme Diplomacy as his main weapon; just a +1 defense. Now, he can start with the Rapier, which has +3 defense! Since most of what you want in the early game is defense (since you use it each time you explore a new room), it seems like he's actually better than :roy: Roy at battling monsters when he starts.

The explicit intent was to give Elan more power at the early stages; our playtesting showed that he's among the hardest character to "get going," especially in a playgroup that gets stingy with asking for assistance. The starting Rapier doesn't really change his mid- and late-game power level too much, though, because having more than one out does not increase the numbers at all—it just allows his +3 to be used for both Attack and Defense. Compare to Roy, whose Attack and Defense go up with each additional Greenhilt Sword. Having Dashing Swordsman out does make it better on Attack (but not Defense), but there's a strong temptation to flip that for the two extra movement every time someone drops a huge Loot pile on the board.

Also, as mentioned, Flying is one of the most common Monster abilities, so you're getting Roy's weakness along with only some of his strength.

Dakaran
2012-03-08, 11:03 AM
Just for clarity, with Belkar's Petty Threat, can you replace the stored Screw This! card or is it a one-and-done sort of deal? If it can be replaced, is there a restriction of when it can be replaced?

Thanks!
Dakaran