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Ursus the Grim
2011-09-23, 01:46 PM
Again. This time its not my fault, promise.

Well, the main players of the group consist of Myself, J, L, S, and H. L and S are room-mates. We've been playing since January. After moving out of our school's lounge, we started playing primarily at the apartment of L and S.

Well, L and S have had a falling out, and one has decided, after giving it a go, that playing with her now-estranged room-mate is too difficult and awkward. We've been trying to resolve this since the Spring, and clearly it isn't going to happen. Its pretty clearly "choose one".

Two weeks ago, J, H, and myself talked about it in the car. H is a wonderful girl and had an optimistic, keep them both mindset, but she was just filled in on the drama that day. Everyone who's been dealing with it over the summer knows we can't keep them both. I started to hint that I might prefer S if forced to choose, and J enthusiastically agreed.

We don't hate L, but she's exceedingly difficult to talk to about it, and doesn't take suggestions terribly well, one of the reasons why this thing has gone so terribly. We have an alternate meeting place arranged.

Trying to bring it up in person will cause a ****storm, but its the only decent thing to do. We've been talking behind her back, and she's keen enough to pick up on that, but not considerate enough to realize that we were just trying to decide what to do because we couldn't talk to her about it.

L is a decent enough person, and a good host, but she's always been a bit tricky to play with and even more difficult to ask to change.

I would appreciate it if someone who's had experience expelling people from their group could lend me a few pointers. Its probably going to fall on myself or J. H is too nice, and things would go south if S said it.

Edit: I know someone's going to find fault with how this was handled, and I'm not saying we've done it perfectly. In fact, I'm saying we're not perfect and we need help to do it right.

Amridell
2011-09-23, 01:55 PM
You've kind of hit the impossible question. But, my suggestion is this:
Ask yourself:
1.Who would you rather have as a roommate?
2.Who could you spend time with, just on a friend to friend basis?
3.And ultimately, who works with the group better? You don't want the guy who puts the party in danger all the time.
4.OR: Tell them this:
It's a GAME. We play this for fun, not to get back at each other for tension. We go to the trouble to come here to kill orcs, and jest at each other's characters. NOT to watch other group members squabble. If you two cannot live together, then PLEASE do it outside of D&D. It's a roleplay. Not a real play.

Knaight
2011-09-23, 01:56 PM
H might not be entirely wrong in her optimism. Is there any reason 2 groups, one with S, one with L is out of the question?

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-23, 02:00 PM
You've kind of hit the impossible question. But, my suggestion is this:
Ask yourself:
1.Who would you rather have as a roommate?
2.Who could you spend time with, just on a friend to friend basis?
3.And ultimately, who works with the group better? You don't want the guy who puts the party in danger all the time.
4.OR: Tell them this:
It's a GAME. We play this for fun, not to get back at each other for tension. We go to the trouble to come here to kill orcs, and jest at each other's characters. NOT to watch other group members squabble. If you two cannot live together, then PLEASE do it outside of D&D. It's a roleplay. Not a real play.

Well, the answers to questions 1 through 3 sound like S.

As for 4, we tried that, and it just wasn't working out. They were civil enough to one another, but there was definitely a feeling of discomfort for everybody. And people have difficulty having fun when they're uncomfortable.


H might not be entirely wrong in her optimism. Is there any reason 2 groups, one with S, one with L is out of the question?

We're currently considering a second night. But its going to be rough. Each of us is a Full-time Uni student, with either jobs or significant others. I feel lucky to get my Friday nights.

Shadowknight12
2011-09-23, 02:04 PM
Option 1: Honesty.

"Hey, L, we've been meaning to talk to you. Have a seat. You know how awkward it has been lately to play, right? Well, I don't think we can keep doing this any more. We tried every single way we could think of to patch things up with you and S, but it hasn't worked out. We really, really didn't want to do this, but we can't keep this up. I'm afraid we're going to have to play without you from now on."

Then soften the blow by complimenting some aspect of her so that she doesn't feel that rejected. You can put a spin on it by making it seem like you guys had no other choice but to pick S ("She's J's friend, you know. You understand, right?").

Option 2: Dishonesty.

"Hey, L, we've been meaning to talk to you. Have a seat. You know how awkward it has been lately to play, right? Well, I don't think we can keep doing this any more. We tried every single way we could think of to patch things up with you and S, but it hasn't worked out. We really, really didn't want to do this, but we can't keep this up. We're not going to keep playing."

Then resume playing at another location without her knowledge.

Alaris
2011-09-23, 02:07 PM
Urk, yeah. This does sound like a bad situation.

But, I mean, at the end of the day, there's not much in the way of choices that won't hurt someone.

Whoever you choose, the other will likely have hurt feelings. HOWEVER, I recommend NOT cutting ties with the other. Just because you are not playing D&D with that person does NOT mean you can't be friends. That's a mistake a lot of people seem to make, and I am not a fan.

As Gary Jackson once said, "The Game Must Go On." It's clear that these two "Former Roommates" cannot hang out together, regardless of D&D setting or not. It would be nice if they could work things out, but you can't really force that, without possibly ruining more than just their friendships.

At the end of the day, I recommend setting some time aside to hang out with the one who is 'evicted,' so that you guys can stay friends. You can make it a movie night, or anime, or whatever you guys are interested in, if you can't do D&D.



Then resume playing at another location without her knowledge.

A thousand times, ABSOLUTELY NO!

This would entirely wreck your friendship with this person, forever.

Though this is likely sarcasm, and I'm ranting.

Xefas
2011-09-23, 02:10 PM
I would appreciate it if someone who's had experience expelling people from their group could lend me a few pointers. Its probably going to fall on myself or J. H is too nice, and things would go south if S said it.

Bake some cookies. Bring milk. Sit down with the person, and shuffle the items towards them wordlessly. As soon as they go for one, say "Nothing personal. You're out of the group." and jog briskly away.

If cookies can't save your friendship, there really wasn't anything that could.

edit: And no, I'm not being sarcastic/silly. Food is the great social duct-tape of mankind.

Shadowknight12
2011-09-23, 02:10 PM
A thousand times, ABSOLUTELY NO!

This would entirely wreck your friendship with this person, forever.

Though this is likely sarcasm, and I'm ranting.

It was not sarcasm. I offered a valid option that is actually VERY likely to end up with the least amount of hurt feelings, provided she doesn't find out the truth.

I do not necessarily recommend either option, I merely make them available. Whether the OP takes them or not is under his own conscience.

Knaight
2011-09-23, 02:39 PM
We're currently considering a second night. But its going to be rough. Each of us is a Full-time Uni student, with either jobs or significant others. I feel lucky to get my Friday nights.
There's always the alternating Fridays option. One week is one game, the next is the second, the next is the first, so on and so forth.

Madeiner
2011-09-23, 03:08 PM
Uhm...

"Hey L, we are forced to make a choice, etc etc. However, we want to keep playing with you. If we cannot keep both, then we are not going to play anymore, and everyone will lose. Try to play another 2-3 sessions, and see how it goes. If it goes bad, then no bad feelings, as long as you try. Btw, S has already agreed"

"He S, we are forced to make a choice, etc etc. However, we want to keep playing with you. If we cannot keep both, then we are not going to play anymore, and everyone will lose. Try to play another 2-3 sessions, and see how it goes. If it goes bad, then no bad feelings, as long as you try. Btw, L has already agreed"


Oh, and hope for a good bluff roll.

Cerlis
2011-09-23, 06:03 PM
I have a good question.

Do you know WHY its been awkward for months?


One aspect of life is that you cant solve a problem if you dont try to solve it right. Thats not a sarcastic question, an honest one rather since i dont know the situation.

And if yall decide to wreck it because no one tried the right thing then that would be bad.

I'll tell you what i'm suspicious of. One thing that would make a situation like that awkward is if everyone in the room acts like the rivalry between the two people exists. Everyday i have to deal with people i dont care for, expessially in school. And i'll tell you there is a big difference between being civil and "being civil". as the second is what people normally do and it usually involves being non-aggressive, but short and distant. Its possible to have a normal conversation about something with someone you abhor.

The situation couldnt heal if everyone spent the entire time thinking about the situation and making sure no one steps on toes and making sure you dont force these two characters together. I think the best way to dissolve the tension is to approach the game itsself with alot of energy and passion. Make it so that there is no time to think about it, that its all about fun, even if certian people didnt like certian other people stealing their kills (or whatever). I constantly deal with people who say they are bored,or get pissed off at people, but the first group never does anything to alleviate their boredom, and the second group is always taking stuff personally and putting themselves in bad situations.

I dont claim to know your situation, i already said that. my comments might have nothing to do with you. you know it, and can judge if it applies to yall. But heck one of your group wasnt even aware of the situation. are yall sure yall didnt spend so much time worrying about a mouse that you turned it into a dire rat?

-----------------

Either way i do NOT think its a good idea to pick someone, and then single out the other and say "Supposidly we still like you but a game is more important than our friendship with you and we like the other person better than you so we aren't going to deal with your life issues"

and instead talk to them both at the sametime, ask them not to interrupt till you are done, explaining that the situation is very awkward and yall want to try to make it better, but that they need to figure out if they can get past it or not, or something has got to change.

If nothing else i think them knowing how much of an impact they are having on yall might do something to alter their behavior. But either way i think you need to be upfront to both of them, give them another chance to change, and make it known that if yall have to pick one, its because of them.

Geigan
2011-09-23, 06:46 PM
5 people, 2 are being difficult. If 1 person is DMing that leaves 4.

A two person party isn't that bad actually. Kick em both out until they can learn to not bring personal issues to the table. The only problem here is that this would create an in-game problem which IMO is much better than an annoying awkwardness hanging over the whole game.

Objection
2011-09-23, 06:58 PM
provided she doesn't find out the truth.

She will find out the truth eventually, I guarantee it.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-23, 07:08 PM
She will find out the truth eventually, I guarantee it.

If she ever finds out, say you had gone on for a couple of months, then decided to start a new campaign, and that she and S can't both be in it.

flumphy
2011-09-23, 07:29 PM
Does she still live with the other person? If so, she's probably going to notice something's up if her roommate disappears at a regular time every Friday.

I actually agree with the advice to just kick them both. I had all my friends choose the other person after a falling out in college and yeah...it sucks. A lot. If I had to choose, I would hurt two people slightly, even lose both friends, rather than tell one person definitively, "We like you less." Even if it was true.

Rixx
2011-09-23, 07:59 PM
Disband the group entirely, and wait a while. Eventually start playing with everyone but either of them. Welcome the first one to show interest into your new, "reformed" group. If the other tries to join after that, mention that it may be an awkward situation because of the people in the group.

This works best if you can get at least one new person when the group reforms. Maybe it's manipulative, but anything that isn't straightforward is going to be.

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-23, 08:39 PM
Okay, gang, update.

L couldn't make it today, but the rest of us could. We only played for a bit, and it was genuine fun. After S left, I called a meeting between myself, J and H. We explored all the options that came to mind and none of them were terribly satisfying or permanent. Most of what's been suggested here came up, a couple times I raised suggestions that I had read before I left for the game. We came to the same conclusion. It was one or the other. We chose S, for a variety of reasons and came to the conclusion that it was up to me to talk to L about the whole thing, to explain what was going to happen and why. I'm now going to go through and address most of what's been suggested or highlighted. Thanks, everyone.


Whoever you choose, the other will likely have hurt feelings. HOWEVER, I recommend NOT cutting ties with the other. Just because you are not playing D&D with that person does NOT mean you can't be friends. That's a mistake a lot of people seem to make, and I am not a fan.

As Gary Jackson once said, "The Game Must Go On." It's clear that these two "Former Roommates" cannot hang out together, regardless of D&D setting or not. It would be nice if they could work things out, but you can't really force that, without possibly ruining more than just their friendships.


Funny thing? I feel terrible for this, but J and myself don't like L and don't want to be friends with her. The only reason things didn't come to a head sooner was because we're pretty non-confrontational and she's like a bull with a thistle in his ass when she gets started. The same thing that makes her hard to play with is the same thing that made it hard to talk about it and its the same thing that lead to the breakdown between her and S. She's unpleasant and hard to talk to. I was trying to get that across without blatant libel, but I guess being blunt was necessary.

I certainly agree with the last part of this, and its going to color some of my later responses.


Bake some cookies. Bring milk. Sit down with the person, and shuffle the items towards them wordlessly. As soon as they go for one, say "Nothing personal. You're out of the group." and jog briskly away.

I appreciate the suggestion. Actually, when I talk to L, I'm going to offer her lunch. She's an off-campus student so her food options are normally pretty limited.


It was not sarcasm. I offered a valid option that is actually VERY likely to end up with the least amount of hurt feelings, provided she doesn't find out the truth.

Yeah, its like I said. She's just clever enough to catch on. The short-term payoff is good, but the chance for cataclysmic disaster later on is high.


There's always the alternating Fridays option. One week is one game, the next is the second, the next is the first, so on and so forth.

We considered this suggestion at our meeting. We decided it wouldn't really work. We'd have to run two separate campaigns, and none of us actually want to continue to play with L it seems. Its terrible to say, really, but I think J and I are kind of glad this is going down.


Uhm...

"Hey L, we are forced to make a choice, etc etc. However, we want to keep playing with you. If we cannot keep both, then we are not going to play anymore, and everyone will lose. Try to play another 2-3 sessions, and see how it goes. If it goes bad, then no bad feelings, as long as you try. Btw, S has already agreed"

"He S, we are forced to make a choice, etc etc. However, we want to keep playing with you. If we cannot keep both, then we are not going to play anymore, and everyone will lose. Try to play another 2-3 sessions, and see how it goes. If it goes bad, then no bad feelings, as long as you try. Btw, L has already agreed"

Oh, and hope for a good bluff roll.
S actually agreed to option 1, but forcing people to get along doesn't seem like a permanent solution. And option 2 is just too far-fetched for a bluff. That's like going all in on your first card in Poker.




-----------------

Either way i do NOT think its a good idea to pick someone, and then single out the other and say "Supposidly we still like you but a game is more important than our friendship with you and we like the other person better than you so we aren't going to deal with your life issues"

and instead talk to them both at the sametime, ask them not to interrupt till you are done, explaining that the situation is very awkward and yall want to try to make it better, but that they need to figure out if they can get past it or not, or something has got to change.

If nothing else i think them knowing how much of an impact they are having on yall might do something to alter their behavior. But either way i think you need to be upfront to both of them, give them another chance to change, and make it known that if yall have to pick one, its because of them.

Its been awkward because we've been trying to keep them both, trying to feel how everyone felt about it, and hoping that things would get better when we knew they wouldn't.

I really appreciate this point. Because we tried it. We've gotten through difficulties before (clever and/or bored people may remember my previous threads for help). But this is different. Their relationship has crossed the event horizon, by account of all witnesses.

Rereading what you said, something occurs to me. I would consider S a friend, but I view L as a tool. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I mean it in a metaphorical way. She's just another butt in a seat, another "player" for the sake of having another player. She isn't fun, I don't enjoy interacting with her, and frankly, when it all boiled down, I was happy to be there to listen to S and try to help her sort things out. We told L to talk to us if she needed to, but she kept it to herself because it wasn't our business. Which is fair enough, but the point is evident.

A specific trait of L's is that she can't accept that she might be doing something wrong. She'll talk like she is ("I mean, if its really that much of a problem. . .") but won't actually accept or make an earnest effort to change. She's got 3.0 material. We try to help her update when necessary, but she won't. She insisted on 3.0 haste, insisted on 3.0 classes that are weaker for it, and denied 3.5 material changes that impacted her negatively. Why? There's maybe two or three pages of material that you need to read to know what's changed, and she couldn't do that because "I paid 9 dollars for this book and I'm going to use it." And that's the mindset she has with any disagreement or problem. I guess we're all a lot more sick of it than I was willing to admit when I posted the thread.


5 people, 2 are being difficult. If 1 person is DMing that leaves 4.

A two person party isn't that bad actually. Kick em both out until they can learn to not bring personal issues to the table. The only problem here is that this would create an in-game problem which IMO is much better than an annoying awkwardness hanging over the whole game.

So you want me to alienate half the players because they can't get along, rather than alienate one? You can't punish people that way. You can't force them to get along, anymore than you can force things to be casual at the table.


If she ever finds out, say you had gone on for a couple of months, then decided to sart a new campaign, and that she and S can't both be in it.

We considered that, but I don't have a desire to sneak around when gaming anymore. I'm tired of hiding my opinion from L, and hiding an entire game? That's too much for me.


I actually agree with the advice to just kick them both. I had all my friends choose the other person after a falling out in college and yeah...it sucks. A lot. If I had to choose, I would hurt two people slightly, even lose both friends, rather than tell one person definitively, "We like you less." Even if it was true.

We know it sucks. The question isn't "does kicking someone out make me a bad person?". Its "how do I kick someone out without ripping out their soul?". She's a thick-skinned, thick-headed lass, until something gets through. Then she's the victim. Kicking one person out will hurt that person. Kicking both out will hurt everyone. That's not fair, especially when we've tried to talk to L before.


Disband the group entirely, and wait a while. Eventually start playing with everyone but either of them. Welcome the first one to show interest into your new, "reformed" group. If the other tries to join after that, mention that it may be an awkward situation because of the people in the group.

This works best if you can get at least one new person when the group reforms. Maybe it's manipulative, but anything that isn't straightforward is going to be.

Yeah, this is an abstract version of something we considered, but she'd see right through it, unfortunately. Like I said, clever enough to thwart most deceptions, but not clever enough to see why they exist.

If it helps, there are other groups on campus. I'm going to talk to them and see if I can get them to adopt her. I actually feel bad for whatever group she goes to, but it would save her some feelings, I think.

Shadowknight12
2011-09-23, 08:45 PM
She will find out the truth eventually, I guarantee it.

It depends entirely on how smart the people at the table are. I assure you, there are secrets out there, held by a group of people, that nobody will ever find out.

Umberhulk
2011-09-23, 10:32 PM
I counciled a young gamer I introduced to d & d about something very similar to this. It had to do with a guy and girl in his group - his first group - who dated and broke up over and over again. Dude finally started dating someone else. The girl became almost impossible to deal with and the group dealt with it for a year. They finally started a second group with almost the same people and let the first fizzle out.

If you like gaming and spend a good deal if time doing it I suggest you don't let this go on forever. You'll get over the "betrayal" once you see that gaming sessions are fun again.

Geigan
2011-09-23, 11:12 PM
So you want me to alienate half the players because they can't get along, rather than alienate one? You can't punish people that way. You can't force them to get along, anymore than you can force things to be casual at the table.

We know it sucks. The question isn't "does kicking someone out make me a bad person?". Its "how do I kick someone out without ripping out their soul?". She's a thick-skinned, thick-headed lass, until something gets through. Then she's the victim. Kicking one person out will hurt that person. Kicking both out will hurt everyone. That's not fair, especially when we've tried to talk to L before.

It's gonna hurt to kick people out no matter who it is. Kicking out one person will most likely alienate them permanently. Kicking them both out gives both of them a chance to get back in as opposed to cutting them off permanently. In short it's fair to both. But you seem to have your mind made up that one friend is worth more to the group than the other so I'll give you my best shot at advice for a breakup.

If you're going to kick someone be straight forward and frank. Ask them to meet you and the group somewhere on a non-game night. Sit down and talk to them as a group. You may or may not want to bring the other roommate. You know your friends better than I do, but I doubt their presence would be a plus for this. Apologize profusely if you must. If they ask for a reason say it's because the discomfort they are bringing to the group as a result of they're misgivings for their ex-roommate can not be tolerated any longer. Tell them you're sorry but they can't play with your group any longer. I don't mean that to sound heavy handed or high horsed. I mean it to be articulated and straight forward to make the occasion less awkward. You want the break to be clean. If they resort to acting the victim then leave. It's not going to end well if they get into that mindset and you start an arguement. If they want someway back in well... if they could get over their problems than it wouldn't have come to this. So I suppose telling them then leaving is your best option. Sticking around is just going to drag it out and lead to messy aftermath.

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-24, 08:45 AM
If you like gaming and spend a good deal if time doing it I suggest you don't let this go on forever. You'll get over the "betrayal" once you see that gaming sessions are fun again.

This is what I've noticed, actually. We have a lot of fun when she can't make it, and her presence tends to put a damper on things.



If you're going to kick someone be straight forward and frank. Ask them to meet you and the group somewhere on a non-game night. Sit down and talk to them as a group. You may or may not want to bring the other roommate. You know your friends better than I do, but I doubt their presence would be a plus for this. Apologize profusely if you must. If they ask for a reason say it's because the discomfort they are bringing to the group as a result of they're misgivings for their ex-roommate can not be tolerated any longer. Tell them you're sorry but they can't play with your group any longer. I don't mean that to sound heavy handed or high horsed. I mean it to be articulated and straight forward to make the occasion less awkward. You want the break to be clean. If they resort to acting the victim then leave. It's not going to end well if they get into that mindset and you start an arguement. If they want someway back in well... if they could get over their problems than it wouldn't have come to this. So I suppose telling them then leaving is your best option. Sticking around is just going to drag it out and lead to messy aftermath.

Thanks for the advice. We've compiled a list of reasons, so that she understands its not just the problem between her and S.


Refusal to use updated material despite the group consensus.
Consistent cheating during character creation.
Abrasiveness towards other players.
Specifically abrasive towards anyone who challenges her, DM included.


I plan on sending her a message to arrange a meeting time. I volunteered to bite the bullet on this one. We agreed, because H doesn't know the situation that well, and J is extremely nonconfrontational, part of the reason she did it for so long. Bringing S would be a bad idea for obvious reasons. We feared bringing the whole group would give her a physical representation of her 'persecution' and push her into overdrive defensive mode. Its a whole lot easier for one person to walk away than it is for four.

TheRinni
2011-09-24, 08:59 AM
I had a similar situation last semester with two boys - who had once dated. "Jo" and "Ri" had dated months ago... for roughly five days. Jo and Ri had both dropped the campaign at that time, and only recently began playing again. We tried to play a few sessions, but Jo was just so vehemently angry, he refused to even look at Ri during roleplay. Ri was flabbergasted by this treatment, but refused to work things out via communication.

Honestly, I would have preferred to kick Jo. But we decided it wouldn't be fair to kick only one, when - really - they're both to blame for the situation.

So, what did we do? We decided that the only fair thing to do would be to kick both of them until they could learn how to be civil.

EDIT:
Gah, sorry. I didn't realize this suggestion had already been made. My apologizes.

Madeiner
2011-09-24, 10:56 AM
This is what I've noticed, actually. We have a lot of fun when she can't make it, and her presence tends to put a damper on things.



Thanks for the advice. We've compiled a list of reasons, so that she understands its not just the problem between her and S.


Refusal to use updated material despite the group consensus.
Consistent cheating during character creation.
Abrasiveness towards other players.
Specifically abrasive towards anyone who challenges her, DM included.


I plan on sending her a message to arrange a meeting time. I volunteered to bite the bullet on this one. We agreed, because H doesn't know the situation that well, and J is extremely nonconfrontational, part of the reason she did it for so long. Bringing S would be a bad idea for obvious reasons. We feared bringing the whole group would give her a physical representation of her 'persecution' and push her into overdrive defensive mode. Its a whole lot easier for one person to walk away than it is for four.


I don't know... i think that message would not pass well to her.
You are compiling a list of the bad things she did and then kick her. So she gets to think she has done EVERYTHING wrong, since time immemorial.

If you wish not to hurt her, try gently explaining that until the two of them reconcile, you feel it's better if she didn't participate anymore.
You'll just have to be prepared for the question "why me and not him" of course. That is up to you, but i would guess something along the lines of "the two of you forced us to make a choice, and we did. We feel we couldn't kick S after all; he also agreed to stay if you would try to reconcile" (that is true, based on your earlier response).

But i believe listing her faults would do little more than convincing her she's a bad person (i don't know, females usually are a little insecure, even if this may not be your case judging by your descriptions) and feel guilt and then rage.


Oh and about you... I think you are right in your choice. L looks like a bad gamer, or at least someone that you can't really get alon with. The group feels the same. There's no wrongdoing here.

PersonMan
2011-09-24, 11:52 AM
If you wish not to hurt her, try gently explaining that until the two of them reconcile, you feel it's better if she didn't participate anymore.
You'll just have to be prepared for the question "why me and not him" of course.

I think this is a good idea-save the explanation for if/when she asks. If she asks, explain these problems(potentially prepare a pro/con list for both of them, and go through it so it seems like the two have been weighed against each other, rather than you just blasting her).

Narren
2011-09-24, 04:57 PM
What exactly caused this falling out between the two of them? That might help us understand the situation better. Do they still live together?

Though it may not matter too much, it's pretty clear that you want L gone for numerous reasons. If you're not friends with this person, and you don't have to interact with them in any other way, I wouldn't stress it too much. I mean, don't be a jerk about it, but don't lose sleep over not inviting someone that NO ONE (save maybe one person) in your group wants to be around.

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-24, 09:28 PM
Edit: Well guys, I sent the message. She responded. I responded back. This is what it sounds like.

Myself*****
Heya L. I just wanted to let you know. After S left Friday, the three [J, H, and myself] of us talked about what we should do. We've tried to see if things could work, and tried to see if things weren't awkward when we finally got her to try playing with you again, but by most accounts it isn't working. I can verify that she indeed had a new tire, but we were in agreement that she made up excuses over the summer to avoid playing with you. We need to talk, and though I'd rather talk about it over Facebook, it wouldn't be right to do so. Is there a time during the week where you're on campus during, say, a break between classes? I've got a ton of meals & flex so I could pay for a lunch or something.

L*****
I'm so sorry this has become such an issue. I guess with all that's going on between me & her personally, I've had a narrow vision as to how it affects everyone else.

I'm really embarrassed, and of course I'll meet up to chat. I'm available every day of the week, pretty much, but how about early dinner at Seaco at 5:30 on Tuesday? Does everyone want to meet (J & H), or are you the representative, as it were?

Here's when I'm busy:
T & TH -- 9:30 to 5:00
Free anytime else.

Also, so that I don't spend the weekend imagining horrible scenarios in my head, can you let me know the generalities of what you all were thinking of doing? It'd just be nicer for me if I go to Seaco already knowing if you all wanted to kick me out of the group, for instance.

Anyway. I'm really sorry.

Myself*****
L, we aren't offended. We know the two of you didn't decide to fight just to mess with us. We understand that no one wanted it to be an issue. You both downplayed it and tried really hard to make it work. Don't be embarrassed. People fight, and people change, and so do groups, I suppose.

Tuesday at 5:30 works for me, I think. We felt like having everyone come to talk to you would be a scheduling nightmare, and generally having three people talk to one person makes things explode. I was chosen because H was out of the loop for so long, and J is too non-confrontational. Which, obviously, is part of the problem.

There's no easy way to say it, and you've kind of called it already, but yes, we are asking you to leave for the time being. Its not a judgement of your character, and we don't "never want to hear from you again." The door will be open if you and S somehow manage to be BEST FRIENDS FOREVER!!! again, but I don't think that's going to happen.

I've been talking to J about it for a while, and H when she returned, and it was unpleasant for us, too. In no way was S involved in making the decision, any more than you were by talking to us first. We haven't picked a side in your squabble, but we've had to make a rough decision. We feel like you've got a better chance of finding a group that works well with you. I've actually got a few names for people who just recently started if you're looking, though they play "D&D 3.75". You've got a take-charge attitude and you're personable.

There were a few reasons for our decision, and in no way was it a unanimous tribal ceremony. Explaining why we chose one over the other is only going to be negative, which is why I wanted to talk about it in person. We considered a few other options (such as multiple nights a week, one for each of you), but for various reasons, none seemed reasonable.

Don't be sorry, please. The more you're sorry, the more like a scumbag I'm going to feel about this whole thing.

Don't treat this like a death sentence. I wanted to meet to talk about it and see if there's an alternative we hadn't considered, so in no way is this a final decision. S hasn't been informed, so it can most certainly be reversed.



So, what did we do? We decided that the only fair thing to do would be to kick both of them until they could learn how to be civil.

EDIT:
Gah, sorry. I didn't realize this suggestion had already been made. My apologizes.

Its perfectly alright. Even if I don't agree with a suggestion, its still valid to put it forward. Again, though, in a nutshell, we don't think its fair to kick someone who works well with the group because she had an argument with someone who doesn't.



You are compiling a list of the bad things she did and then kick her. So she gets to think she has done EVERYTHING wrong, since time immemorial.

If you wish not to hurt her, try gently explaining that until the two of them reconcile, you feel it's better if she didn't participate anymore.
You'll just have to be prepared for the question "why me and not him" of course. That is up to you, but i would guess something along the lines of "the two of you forced us to make a choice, and we did. We feel we couldn't kick S after all; he also agreed to stay if you would try to reconcile" (that is true, based on your earlier response).

But i believe listing her faults would do little more than convincing her she's a bad person (i don't know, females usually are a little insecure, even if this may not be your case judging by your descriptions) and feel guilt and then rage.

Oh and about you... I think you are right in your choice. L looks like a bad gamer, or at least someone that you can't really get alon with. The group feels the same. There's no wrongdoing here.

This is true, and perhaps I shouldn't confront her with our auxillary reasons. I think I'll just start off and explain that its awkward with both of them playing, and that we decided to kick her (in softer words). "Why?" "Well, we find that you and J butt heads from time to time. S is a lot more passive, so she works pretty well with the group dynamic." If she questions further, I'll have to open it up to "we're wimps, we don't challenge you when you're wrong or cheating" and such.

I appreciate the reassurance. Trust me, though, I've been forced to realize that I've made mountains out of molehills in the past.


I think this is a good idea-save the explanation for if/when she asks. If she asks, explain these problems(potentially prepare a pro/con list for both of them, and go through it so it seems like the two have been weighed against each other, rather than you just blasting her).

I considered that, but I fear making it look like a scale will lead her to more quickly question why we ultimately chose her.


What exactly caused this falling out between the two of them? That might help us understand the situation better. Do they still live together?

Though it may not matter too much, it's pretty clear that you want L gone for numerous reasons. If you're not friends with this person, and you don't have to interact with them in any other way, I wouldn't stress it too much. I mean, don't be a jerk about it, but don't lose sleep over not inviting someone that NO ONE (save maybe one person) in your group wants to be around.

We've been playing since January, and L's attitude and mentality was causing problems even back then. For a while, S was living with her and there was brewing trouble, but S kept it down because L is impossible to talk to reasonably. Finally, a fight breaks out and every card is played. Harsh, very harsh words are exchanged. Proceeded by three months of simmering silence and animosity. L won't realize the core problem (she blamed it on the cat, ffs) and S is tired of trying.

Dimers
2011-09-25, 02:51 PM
Well handled, sir. You took a bad situation :smalleek: and made it okay :smallredface:

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-25, 02:54 PM
Well handled, sir. You took a bad situation :smalleek: and made it okay :smallredface:

If I had a penny for every time I heard that. . . I'd have a penny. Suggestions, advice, and such got me this far, but that doesn't mean I'm done with them. I still have to meet her for dinner. That's going to be the hard part, methinks.

Fiery Diamond
2011-09-25, 05:32 PM
Good luck be with you.

Shadowknight12
2011-09-25, 08:56 PM
Here's to hoping she hasn't hatched a plan to manipulate your guilt (working out of the thousands of holes you've left open for a manipulative person to sink their hooks into) and will be enacting it during your dinner.

You could've handled this better, but it was actually not too bad. You're screwed if she knows what she's doing, though.

Objection
2011-09-26, 11:05 AM
To defend yourself against attempts to manipulate your guilt, I have the following suggestion: don't be afraid of being a jerk. Why? Because anyone who is willing to manipulate you in such a way is not someone worth associating with.

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-26, 12:04 PM
Well, not surprisingly, S found out. Not sure if she was told (by L, perhaps), but S is now aware that we are kicking out L. This message shows some insight into the whole thing, but more importantly, is pretty typical of how L interacts with people.
Knowing L, she'll never want anything to do with us ever again. Trust me on that one. I don't know if I'm conveying this properly, but I admit that I did say some harsh things. However, she brought me to that point, ashamedly, by her actions. I realized what I said was wrong and I apologized.. but she never took credit for her own mistakes. She is the kind of person that finds it easiest to blame others for their shortcomings instead of taking a look back at herself to see that maybe she's not a perfect friend either. I did my best to reconcile, I offered friendship, I broke down and cried and told her I missed her, I was friendly, courteous, and all around nice to her, but I got nothing so I gave up. Hence my bitter attitude towards her now. I feel sorry for her, but there's nothing more that I can do except just leave her be. I feel bad mostly because she was the one that introduced me to D&D and the group, and now it had to come to this.
I'm glad it's all getting worked out, and I hope we can keep playing without any awkwardness.


To defend yourself against attempts to manipulate your guilt, I have the following suggestion: don't be afraid of being a jerk. Why? Because anyone who is willing to manipulate you in such a way is not someone worth associating with.

Here's to hoping she hasn't hatched a plan to manipulate your guilt (working out of the thousands of holes you've left open for a manipulative person to sink their hooks into) and will be enacting it during your dinner.

You could've handled this better, but it was actually not too bad. You're screwed if she knows what she's doing, though.

Well, would it make me a jerk to say I'm glad it got to this point? I'm tired of playing the nice guy, because frankly I'm not. Sometimes I think this was just an excuse that I latched onto to get rid of someone I don't like. My message to her was pretty insincere. I'm not sorry she's going. If its just coffee, all the better for me. I can shrug, say "well that's it then" and walk away if she tries to manipulate my emotions.


Good luck be with you.

Thanks.

GungHo
2011-09-26, 01:31 PM
Knowing L, she'll never want anything to do with us ever again.
Do you care at this point?

Hell, I'm surprised you're still going to feed her. You've already plunged in the knife. You don't need to provide a basket of fish & chips as a consolation prize just to twist the knife around. Unless she's hot or something.

Connington
2011-09-26, 02:40 PM
To be honest, L came off as a lot more reasonable and less conflict-causing, just by comparing the two scraps of their emails you've posted.

That should probably tell you something about the quality of advice you're going to get on the internets.

Knaight
2011-09-26, 04:13 PM
To be honest, L came off as a lot more reasonable and less conflict-causing, just by comparing the two scraps of their emails you've posted.

That should probably tell you something about the quality of advice you're going to get on the internets.

Except for the problem with L has been articulated as a stubborn insistence that she gets her way, and the email with L is reasonable, but also within the parameters of setting up further discussion. A further discussion that, by all accounts, went terribly. Basically everyone seems reasonable when they think they have a situation under control, and L's email is indicative of nothing.

Connington
2011-09-26, 04:24 PM
Oh, totally. I wasn't making a serious judgement, just noting that since everyone was so far removed from the situation, our advice doesn't count for much.

Narren
2011-09-26, 06:58 PM
To be honest, L came off as a lot more reasonable and less conflict-causing, just by comparing the two scraps of their emails you've posted.

That should probably tell you something about the quality of advice you're going to get on the internets.

I agree, that short discourse did not paint the picture that OP was describing. But really, that means nothing. One interaction isn't enough to get a feel for someone, especially when they've been put into an unfamiliar situation.

Rixx
2011-09-26, 07:08 PM
Oh, totally. I wasn't making a serious judgement, just noting that since everyone was so far removed from the situation, our advice doesn't count for much.

That's why I usually keep clear of these threads.

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-26, 07:31 PM
Do you care at this point?

Hell, I'm surprised you're still going to feed her. You've already plunged in the knife. You don't need to provide a basket of fish & chips as a consolation prize just to twist the knife around. Unless she's hot or something.

Nope. She's not the attractive one. Not that I'm looking, of course.


Oh, totally. I wasn't making a serious judgement, just noting that since everyone was so far removed from the situation, our advice doesn't count for much.

This is true, but your distance from the situation could provide perspective and a dispassionate wisdom of its own.


I agree, that short discourse did not paint the picture that OP was describing. But really, that means nothing. One interaction isn't enough to get a feel for someone, especially when they've been put into an unfamiliar situation.

Yeah. I thought I expressed this earlier though. She appears apologetic when actually confronted at first, but only in a "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do that" sort of way, even if we've been over it before. When pushed about something, though, she really flips out. Sometimes she doesn't even make that first stop.

You can tell when she's missing the point because she normally says she's sorry when she does. But when the point is obvious but she's just being stubborn, she switches into aggressive defensive mode. Like a transformer though, it can happen anytime. But its not cool, so I guess that's a flawed simile, huh.

Stubbazubba
2011-09-26, 07:37 PM
I actually think the OP handled it very well, word choice and all. Anyone with any degree of social IQ will know that trying to manipulate the "holes" in the argument is complete douchebaggery. He's not arguing before an objective third-party, he doesn't need to have a water-tight argument; he's the bearer of bad news that the group has decided, and they could be completely wrong in their reasoning, but counter-argument will not change the outcome. She should know, by virtue of her awareness of social etiquette, that he understated the group's issues with her (in fact he more or less said so) because this is not divorce court; there's no need to exacerbate the problem by dragging out all the dirty laundry.

Emotional manipulation sounds like a likely follow-up, but I never strike pre-emptively; until she starts pulling something on me, I'm going to be gentle and accommodating, because when the outcome is already final and you're the bearer of bad news, I do feel like it should be carried out with compassion and grace. But, yeah, I agree that the moment she does try to poke your guilt, you shut her down and leave. That is unacceptable behavior and you are under no obligation to bear it from anyone.

Geigan
2011-09-26, 10:10 PM
I actually think the OP handled it very well, word choice and all. Anyone with any degree of social IQ will know that trying to manipulate the "holes" in the argument is complete douchebaggery. He's not arguing before an objective third-party, he doesn't need to have a water-tight argument; he's the bearer of bad news that the group has decided, and they could be completely wrong in their reasoning, but counter-argument will not change the outcome. She should know, by virtue of her awareness of social etiquette, that he understated the group's issues with her (in fact he more or less said so) because this is not divorce court; there's no need to exacerbate the problem by dragging out all the dirty laundry.

Emotional manipulation sounds like a likely follow-up, but I never strike pre-emptively; until she starts pulling something on me, I'm going to be gentle and accommodating, because when the outcome is already final and you're the bearer of bad news, I do feel like it should be carried out with compassion and grace. But, yeah, I agree that the moment she does try to poke your guilt, you shut her down and leave. That is unacceptable behavior and you are under no obligation to bear it from anyone.

Pretty much this. Sit down and get it over with. Dinner will unfortunately drag it out a bit, but if it gets out of hand lay down the money for the bill and leave. If you think emotional manipulation is afoot don't stand for it, but until then deliver the news as straight and cleanly as possible. Remember she's still been your friend for awhile. Of course I don't know enough to make a judgment on how much leeway she deserves, but I think it'll work out better for the both of you if you try to get through this with as little social mess as possible. In any case, best of luck.

Sturmcrow
2011-09-27, 09:39 AM
Glad to see you were honest and willing to talk with her as that was the advice I would have given if I had seen this earlier.

As someone that was removed from a gaming group (which I had formed) because of drama between other people, it is gratifying to see that you have tried to talk with them; the fact that I was lied to and that people tried to avoid actually talking to me about their own issues ruined several friendships, permanently.

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-27, 05:11 PM
Well, its been done. I didn't go down the list of quibbles. Pissing her off would have been a poor idea, especially in public. She seemed pretty hardcore in the depression stage, having worked through anger over the weekend, I'm sure. There was guilt, certainly, though I am unsure if it was intentional. I got the "I don't have any other friends" line, which sucked but gave me a way to shift it to "we're still willing to be your friend". A lie, at least for me. But, like I said, H is a marvelous person and will probably go out of her way to be the good friend. Oh, I couldn't even get her coffee. They were out of milk and creamers, so yeah. I had nothing to fiddle with. Though I realize now that I stared at the table most of the time, until I realized it and made eye contact. Whole thing lasted about half an hour. My ears are hot and my chest is tight, but things will be better in the long run.

Shadowknight12
2011-09-27, 05:16 PM
Well, its been done. I didn't go down the list of quibbles. Pissing her off would have been a poor idea, especially in public. She seemed pretty hardcore in the depression stage, having worked through anger over the weekend, I'm sure. There was guilt, certainly, though I am unsure if it was intentional. I got the "I don't have any other friends" line, which sucked but gave me a way to shift it to "we're still willing to be your friend". A lie, at least for me. But, like I said, H is a marvelous person and will probably go out of her way to be the good friend. Oh, I couldn't even get her coffee. They were out of milk and creamers, so yeah. I had nothing to fiddle with. Though I realize now that I stared at the table most of the time, until I realized it and made eye contact. Whole thing lasted about half an hour. My ears are hot and my chest is tight, but things will be better in the long run.

Congratulations on completing this life milestone. Plant a tree, read a book, have a kid, get a job, sever ties with someone in a terribly awkward manner.

Wings of Peace
2011-09-27, 06:27 PM
Well, its been done. I didn't go down the list of quibbles. Pissing her off would have been a poor idea, especially in public. She seemed pretty hardcore in the depression stage, having worked through anger over the weekend, I'm sure. There was guilt, certainly, though I am unsure if it was intentional. I got the "I don't have any other friends" line, which sucked but gave me a way to shift it to "we're still willing to be your friend". A lie, at least for me. But, like I said, H is a marvelous person and will probably go out of her way to be the good friend. Oh, I couldn't even get her coffee. They were out of milk and creamers, so yeah. I had nothing to fiddle with. Though I realize now that I stared at the table most of the time, until I realized it and made eye contact. Whole thing lasted about half an hour. My ears are hot and my chest is tight, but things will be better in the long run.

You get +1 internet cookies for doing what needed to be done.

If it makes you feel better I've been in similar situations and you did as well as I ever did. In the long run feeding her likely would have just degraded the friendship anyways on your end because things like this nag at you if allowed to go on.

Edit: Also, hey Shadowknight! I keep bumping into you!

Lord_Gareth
2011-09-27, 07:07 PM
Congratulations on completing this life milestone. Plant a tree, read a book, have a kid, get a job, sever ties with someone in a terribly awkward manner.

You forgot, "Spend six days arguing on a forum thread with a group of people incapable of grasping the completely obvious."

Not this thread, obviously, this thread has tons of good advice. You know, just in general.

Shadowknight12
2011-09-27, 08:21 PM
Edit: Also, hey Shadowknight! I keep bumping into you!

Strange! But amusing. :smallamused:


You forgot, "Spend six days arguing on a forum thread with a group of people incapable of grasping the completely obvious."

Not this thread, obviously, this thread has tons of good advice. You know, just in general.

I'm pretty sure we all complete that milestone fairly soon in our lives. Like "walking" and "talking." :smalltongue: