"Rule One: No mineral or vegetable, only animals." [Base Class]

[Tanuki Tales]

Disclaimer
Since it's far too late to change the thread title, I'd like everyone to know that this is 3.PF material and you are free to PEACH. And like most of my material, this is a work in progress till I say otherwise.




Nagual


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u98/The_Logos/Nagual.jpg

”The raw strength of a bear...the serene grace of a swan...the undying tenacity of the badger... How could you live a life without these things once knowing them?”

-Kailee Thraneleaf, Half-Elf Nargual.

Many are there those who take upon themselves the forms and traits of other creatures; be it through magic, psionic power or the shaping of unspeakable forces. Those molders of the flesh and form place upon themselves the guise not their own to accomplish tasks and challenges that stand before them. They wield these transmutations like the finely honed tools of a consummate craftsmen but in the end they are but one tool amongst many for them.

Such is not the approach or the mindset of the Nagual. They do not treat the changing of forms as just another item in a hackneyed bag of tricks, they view it as a way of life. The Nagual are gifted with this talent at birth but only truly come into its mysterious ways once they come of age. These warriors of the shifting flesh have within them a deep connection to the natural world, a primal instinct and calling that few others can share. This can easily set them apart and make outcasts of them, being branded monsters, demons and witches.

Whether ultimately good or evil, the Nagual are a great boon to their allies and a terrifying foe to their enemies. For how safe does one truly feel when those out for your blood can not be distinguished from the millions of beasts that surround one every day?

Other Classes: The Nagual finds a kindred spirit in both the Ranger and the Druid, all three classes having their roots grounded in the verdant cycle of the natural world. Barbarians are generally seen as fellow warriors of the same harsh environs as the Nagual, but only those who devote themselves to an animalistic totem are ever as well related to as the Ranger or Druid. Clerics and Bards are generally seen as the harbingers of the encroaching civilization of the modernizing world but those of nature deities and more less civilized lives can be easily held in high regards.

Fighters and Paladins are always at an arms length and under a watchful eye since, more times than not, they are the ones who hunted and persecuted the Nagual or came into their homes and carved a way for greater ecological devastation.

Sorcerers and Wizards are marveled at best for their world shaking power and disdained at worst because of their pedestrian treatment of shapeshifting.

Monks are admired for their strict discipline and Rogues valued for the unique niches they fill but Naguals as a whole are mostly of neutral opinion towards the two classes.

Role: The Nagual is first and foremost a melee combatant. They wade through the front lines of combat, slaughtering enemies and taking away harmful attention from their allies. But because of the great versatility of the forms allowed to them they are not solely locked in that role.

Alignment: Any Neutral.

Hit Dice: d10

Class skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Geography (Int), Knowledge: Nature (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Strength)
Skills: 4+Intelligence Modifier per level



{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fortitude Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|
Special|Forms

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|
Minor Seeming, Seeming, Wild Empathy|
3

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|
Morphic Trait, Woodland Stride|
3

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|
Fluid Seeming, Trackless Step|
4

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|
Morphic Trait, Path of the Beast, Uncanny Dodge|
4

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|
The Humanoid Animal, Shifting Defense|
5

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|
Kitten Soul, Morphic Trait|
5

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|
Improved Uncanny Dodge|
6

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|
Morphic Trait|
6

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|
Bonus feat, Elephant Heart|
7

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|
Morphic Trait|
7

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|
Natural Mystery|
8

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|
Morphic Trait|
8

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|
Draconic Majesty|
9

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|
Morphic Trait|
9

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|
Corrupted Essence|
10

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|
Morphic Trait|
10

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|
Planeswalker|
11

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|
Morphic Trait|
11

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|
Bonus feat|
12

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|
Morphic Trait, Perfect Seeming|
12
[/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Nagual are proficient with simple weapons and light armor, barding and any form of armor wearable by animals.

Seeming (Su):
A Nagual is capable of warping and molding their body to become a member of the animal kingdom in near perfection. When using this ability the Nagual is affected by the following changes:


Ability Scores
The Nagual loses any racial bonuses or penalties they possess to their physical ability scores. They instead gain a +2 racial bonus to any physical scores the creature they have adopted the form of has a bonus in and likewise take a -2 racial penalty to any physical score they have a penalty in. This bonus/penalty increases by an additional +2/-2 for every two levels the Nagual has in this class, to a maximum of +10/-10 at 20th level. If the Nagual changes size category, they gain an additional +2 size bonus to Strength and Constitution and a -2 size penalty to Dexterity for every size category over their original size or a +2 size bonus to Dexterity and a -2 size penalty to Strength and Constitution for every size category under.

These cumulative bonuses and penalties cannot exceed the original racial bonuses and penalties of the creature who's form the Nagual is assuming.


Natural Armor
The Nagual loses any natural armor that they already have, instead gaining +2 natural armor bonus. This bonus increases by an additional +2 for every two levels the Nagual has in this class, to a maximum of +10 at 20th level. If the Nagual changes size categories, they gain an additional +2 size category over their original size.

These cumulative bonuses cannot exceed the original natural armor bonus of the creature who's form the Nagual is assuming.


Movement Modes
The Nagual loses any movement modes that they already possessed and gain the base land speed of the creature who's form they are assuming.

If the creature has a burrow, climb or swim speed, the Nagual gains this movement mode at half their base land speed. At 5th and 10th level, this increases to equal to and double their base land speed respectively.

If the creature possesses a flight speed, the Nagual gains this movement mode at one quarter their base land speed and at three steps lower maneuverability (minimum Clumsy). At 5 and 10th level, this increases to one half and equal to their base land speed respectively and the maneuverability increases by one and two steps respectively.


Sensory Modes
The Nagual loses any sensory modes that they already had and gain normal, low-light or dark vision (out to 60 feet) that the creature who's form they are assuming possesses.

If the creature has any other sensory modes (such as scent, tremorsense, blind sense or blind sight), the Nagual gains them out to 5 feet. This range increase by an additional 5 feet for every two levels the Nagual has in this class. This range cannot exceed the original range possessed by the creature who's form the Nagual is assuming.


Racial Skill bonuses
The Nagual loses any racial bonuses they received to any skills. They then select one skill that the creature who's form they are assuming has a racial bonus in, gaining a +2 racial bonus to that selected skill. This bonus increases by +2 for every four levels the Nagual possesses in this class, to a maximum of +10 at 20th level. At 5th and 10th level, the Nagual may select an additional skill past the first.

These cumulative bonuses cannot exceed the original racial skill bonus of the creature who's form the Nagual is assuming.


Natural attacks
The Nagual loses any natural attacks that they have, gaining one primary natural attack possessed by the creature who's form they are assuming. For every four levels the Nagual possesses in this class, they gain another natural attack the creature has (selecting first from primary and then secondary when no more remain) to a maximum of 5 at 20th level.


A Nagual loses the ability to speak any languages it knows while changed into the form of another creature, limited to only communicating as is natural to that creature. All of the Nagual's armor and gear (save items that can be used by the creature the Nagual is changing shape into, such as barding) melds into the Nagual's new form, rendering it unusable.

Changing shape is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A Nagual can use this ability a number of times per day equal to its total levels in this class and each use of Seeming lasts for one hour per level it possesses in this class. A use of Seeming expires either when the time limit is reached or the Nagual returns to its natural form.

A Nagual can never assume the form of a unique creature nor the form of templated creatures or creatures that are made up of multiple creatures (such as swarms).

Seeming Forms: A Nagual is limited in its ability to take the forms of other living creatures, having a selection of beasts it is most familiar with. A Nagual may only select a creature of the animal or vermin type as one of its Seeming Forms and this must be a creature that the Nagual has encountered before (thus a Nagual who has lived in a tropical environment can not choose a Polar Bear, no matter how much they have studied the creature but haven't seen one yet).

The Nagual can not choose a creature who's CR is more than their levels in this class+1 and can not choose a creature who is more than one size category larger or smaller than the Nagual's base size (ignoring any ability or trait that increase size such as the Giant simple template or the Enlarge Person spell).

Every time a Nagual would gain another Seeming Form known they may choose to replace one of their already known Forms with another. This substitution follows all of the same restrictions as if learning a new Form.

A Nagual knows three Seeming Forms at 1st level and gains another Form known every two levels.

Minor Seeming: The Nagual begins to delve into the concept of using minute applications of its Seeming instead of the full force. They gain the Minor Seeming feat (see below) as a bonus feat.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A Nagual can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The Nagual rolls 1d20 and adds their levels in this class and their modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.

The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the Nagual and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

A Nagual can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but they takes a –4 penalty on the check.

Morphic Trait: Fighting in a form not their own, a Nagual quickly adapts and learns styles and skills of combat best suited for them. At 2nd level, and every 2 levels afterwards, she picks one of the traits from the list below. These traits can only be used while the Nagual is using their Seeming class ability. Unless noted otherwise they work identically to the Barbarian Rage powers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers) of the same name (Rage Powers that can be used a limited amount of times per rage instead can only be used the same amount of times per encounter). The Nagual counts as a Barbarian of their level-4 (minimum 1) for qualifying for and for determining the effects of any Morphic trait.

Morphic Traits
Bleeding Blow
Boasting Taunt
Clear Mind
Come and Get Me
Crippling Blow
Fearless Seeming [as Fearless Rage]
Flesh Wound
Ground Breaker
Ground Breaker, Greater
Guarded Life
Guarded Life, Greater
Internal Fortitude
Intimidate Glare
Knockback
Knockdown
Mighty Swing
Overbearing Advance
Overbearing Assault
Powerful Blow
Reflexive Dodge
Renewed Life
Renewed Vigor
Renewed Vitality
Smasher
Spell Sunder
Strength Surge
Sunder Enchantment
Superstition
Terrifying Howl
Unexpected Strike
Witch Hunter

Woodland Stride (Ex): A Nagual has long learned to move quickly through the natural world. They may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at their normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect them.

Fluid Seeming (Su): The line between the Nagual's natural form and those it assumes has become almost nonexistent. The Nagual reverting to its natural form and then back into another no longer causes a use of Seeming to expire.

Trackless Step (Ex): A Nagual becomes an impossible quarry to hunt. A Nagual leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. They may choose to leave a trail if so desired.

Path of the Beast (Ex): A Nagual becomes so comfortable in skins not its own that it moves and fight as though it was such a creature. The Nagual gains the Extraordinary special attacks and special qualities that a creature it becomes, when using the Seeming class feature, possesses.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Nagual begins to rely on a sixth sense reacting to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so. They cannot be caught flat-footed, nor do they lose their Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. They still lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if immobilized. A Nagual with this ability can still lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against them.

If a Nagual already has uncanny dodge from a different class, they automatically gain improved uncanny dodge instead.

The Humanoid Animal (Ex): The Nagual has discovered a secret truth; humanoids are also animals. The Nagual retains the ability to speak any language it knows while using its Seeming class feature.

Shifting Defense (Ex): As the Nagual spends more and more time in a skin not it's own, it learns insights in the manipulation of his physical makeup, making themselves more enduring and adaptive to the challenges they face.

At 5th level, the Nagual gains immunity to poison and the Stunning condition as well as Fortification 25% while using their Seeming class feature.

At 7th level, the Nagual gains Fast Healing, equal to their Consitution modifier (minimum 1), while using their Seeming class feature. This Fast Healing stacks with any other Fast Healing that is granted by this class but not by outside sources.

At 9th level, the Nagual gains five extra feet of reach with all of their attacks but does not appear to have this reach until they attack. This is only active when the Nagual is using their Seeming class feature.

At 11th level, the Nagual receives a saving throw (Will save) against the Anti-Magic Field spell and similar effects. Passing this save means that its Seeming class feature is unaffected by the spell and similar effects.

In addition, the Nagual can end any negative transmutation spell or effect (such as Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone) by expending one use of its Seeming class feature.

At 13th level, the Nagual's Fortification increases to 50%. If a Nagual would be subject to a critical hit it instead takes half damage from the critical hit. This ability is only active while the Nagual is using their Seeming class feature.

At 15th level, the Nagual gains Damage Reduction, equal to their Constitution modifier+5 (minimum 6), while using their Seeming class feature. This damage reduction can only be bypassed by weapons that are magic and made of cold iron.

At 17th level, the Nagual gains Energy Resistance 10 while using their Seeming class feature. This energy resistance is against the first energy damage the Nagual takes, changing to that energy type at the beginning of the next round. If the Nagual would then take damage from another energy type its resistance changes to match that energy type at the beginning of the next round.

At 19th level, the Nagual is now immune to fatigue and exhaustion and their Fortification increases to 75%. If the Nagual would be the subject of a Coup de Grace they automatically pass the Fortitude save against instant death. This ability is only active while the Nagual is using their Seeming class feature.

Kitten Soul (Su): The Nagual has gained further insight into the use of its Seeming, able to mimic even the regal house cat. The Nagual may now select Seeming Forms that are within two size categories smaller than its natural size.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): They Nagual's sixth sense has heightened to the point that they can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Nagual by flanking them, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Nagual levels.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Bonus feat:
A Nagual gains a bonus feat at 9th and 19th level. These feats may be any feat with the Seeming tag or any feat that a Fighter may select as a bonus feat.

Elephant Heart (Su): The Nagual has gained further insight into the use of its Seeming, able to mimic even the pondering Elephant. The Nagual may now select Seeming Forms that are within two size categories larger than its natural size.

Natural Mystery (Su): The Nagual's experience with its Seeming has grown once more. The Nagual may now select creatures of the Magical Beast type when choosing their Seeming Forms.

Draconic Majesty (Su): The Nagual has begun to reach the farthest depths of its Seeming. The Nagual may now select creatures of the Dragon type when choosing their Seeming Forms.

Corrupted Essence (Su): The Nagual delving into the aspects of its Seeming has allowed it to take on forms that are truly unnatural. The Nagual may now select creatures of the Aberration type when choosing their Seeming Forms.

List of Acceptable Forms
Akata
Charybdis
Cloaker
Decapus
Delver
Destrachan
Dust Digger
Executioner's Hood
Froghemoth
Fungal Crawler
Gibbering Mouther
Grick
Gug
Incutilis
Lurker Above
Mimic
Neothelid
Otyugh
Reefclaw
Roper
Rust Monster
Seugathi
Tentamort
Vampiric Mist
Vemerak
[A DM should be consulted before choosing any forms of this type that are not on this list.]

Planeswalker (Su): The Nagual has reached the epitome of the forms it may take on. The Nagual may now select creatures of the Outsider type when choosing their Seeming Forms.

List of Acceptable Forms
Achaierai
Bebilith
Chaos Beast
Couatl
Crysmal
Hellcat
Hell Hound
Howler
Mihstu
Nightmare
Rast
Thoqqua
Xacarba
Yeth Hound

[A DM should be consulted before choosing any forms of this type that are not on this list.]

Perfect Seeming: The Nagual has gained total mastery over its mind, body and essence. The Nagual gains the following:

The Nagual gains one Supernatural special attack or one Supernatural special quality that the creature it becomes possesses.
The Nagual gains the Magical Beast type and the Augmented and Shapechanger subtypes.
The Nagual is no longer affected by any Transmutation effect that it does not wish to be affected by.
The Nagual may now use its Seeming Class feature at will and changing shape only takes a move action.
The Nagual no longer possesses a maximum age and does not die because of age or aging effects.
The Nagual may change its Seeming Forms once per day upon awakening. It may choose any creatures that it would have normally been allowed to select.
The Nagual may select Seeming Forms that are within four size categories (larger or smaller) than itself.

Change Log
9/24/11 - Added in forgotten rules text about what happens to a Nagual's gear and armor when they use their Seeming class feature.
Other classes section added.
Character options section and feats subsection created. 4 feats added under it.
"Vision modes" changed and clarified to mean all sensory modes.

9/25/11 - Major restructuring of the class completed:
Minor Seeming granted as a bonus feat at level 3.
Shifting Defense moved from level 7 to level 5.
Skittering Dark moved from level 9 to level 7.
Claws of the Beast moved from level 10 to level 9.
Natural Mystery moved from Level 14 to level 11.
Improved Shifting Defense moved from level 17 to level 13.
Skin of the Beast moved from level 18 to level 14.
Corrupted Essence moved from level 17 to level 15.
Draconic Majesty moved from level 19 to level 17.
Perfect Shifting Defense class feature added to class at level 19.


9/27/11 - Hit Dice increased from d8 to d10. Link provided for Morphic Trait abilities.
Another big restructuring of the class:
Minor Seeming moved from level 3 to level 1.
Fluid Seeming moved from level 11 to level 3.
Healing Pulse, Improved Shifting Defense, Perfect Shifting Defense, Sinuous Seeming, and True Shape class features removed.
Shifting Defense greatly expanded to encompass most of what was removed with some additions and changes.
Spoiler tags added to Shifting Defense.

10/10/11 - Claws of the Beast and Skin of the Beast class features removed. Path of the Beast class feature added. Bonus feats added.

10/11/11 - Seeming tag for feats created. Deer's Pursuit, Quick Seeming, Rhino's Hide, and Wolverine's Tenacity feats added.
Alphabetized feats.
Cougar Strike, Falcon's Grace and Man-o-war's Sting feats added.
Resilient Defense, Shark's Patrol and Worm Skin feats added.

10/12/11 - Deer's Pursuit feat changed to give more of a relevant mechanical bonus. Ectovore, Extra Morphic Trait, Gecko's Footpads, and Vicious Wound feats added.

1/4/12 - Added in rules text for Seeming.

1/11/12 - Skittering Dark class feature removed; vermin forms now allowed at level 1 onwards.
Kitten Soul and Elephant Heart moved to level 6 and 9 respectively.
Draconic Majesty class feature moved to level 13.
Planewalker class feature added.

1/22/12 - Seeming Class Feature editted to allow more variation between characters.

2/28/12 - Perfect Seeming updated.

9/17/12 - Patient Hunter Archetype added.
Amount of Seeming forms increased by 2.
Favored Class Options added.
Disclaimer updated.

9/18/12 - Clarified size limitations on Seeming Forms.
Added clarification that Path of the Beast only functions when using the Seeming class feature.
Added forgotten physical clarification for score penalties given by Seeming class feature.
The Nagual's Effective Barbarian level for Morphic traits reduced to Nagual level-4.
Proficiency with Martial weapons removed.
Rewrote and changed how the Seeming class feature functions.
List of acceptable Aberration forms added.
List of acceptable Outsider forms added.

9/19/2012 - Auspicious Mark, Deadly Accuracy, Disruptive, Eater of Magic, Energy Absorption, Energy Resistance, Ghost Seeming, Greater Energy Resistance, Guarded Stance, Inspire Ferocity, Lethal Accuracy, No Escape, Quick Reflexes, Reckless Abandon, Regenerative Vigor, Sharpened Accuracy, Spellbreaker, Sprint, Surprise Accuracy, and Swift Foot Morphic traits removed.
Clarification added on how often Morphic traits can be used.

9/20/2012 - Forgotten racial and size tags added to the bonuses/penalties given by using the Seeming class feature.



Comments
- I embarked on the task of making this class because it's only now, in hindsight, that I see something I missed out on. I've been playing Pathfinder since the beta came out and its only now that I find myself wanting to play a Druid Tank, a role I never got to try back when I was playing the two 3rd editions. For those unaware, Wildshaping got nerfed straight through the ground by design of the creators. No longer is it meant to serve any role except scouting and light utility.

Now, I know there are probably a ton of Shapeshifting base classes already here on GiTP, but I always enjoy making classes myself and at least this way I can make something that feels both personal and as close as possible to the concept I wish to play.

[Tanuki Tales]

Character Options


Feats

Seeming Feats
Feats with the "[Seeming]" tag can only be taken by characters who possess the Seeming class feature. Each use of a Seeming feat generally uses up one daily usage of the Seeming class feature and a Seeming feat can not be activated if the character has no daily usages of Seeming left. Unless noted otherwise, activating a Seeming feat is a standard action and only one Seeming feat can be activated per round (though overlapping durations may allow a character to benefit from more than one Seeming feat).

Activating a Seeming feat is a supernatural ability and does not provoke an attack of opportunity unless otherwise stated.

Cougar Strike [Seeming]
Benefit: At the beginning of an encounter (after rolling for Initiative), the Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature as a free action to gain the Pounce special attack for the duration of the encounter.
Special: If the Nagual already has the Pounce special attack they instead do not take the -2 penalty to AC for performing a charge and may move three times their speed instead of twice. The effects of this feat last for the duration of the encounter.

Deer's Pursuit [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to double their base land speed. Once per hour the Nagual may also go into a dead sprint, moving 10 times their modified base land speed as part of a charge. Furthermore, the Nagual gains a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and takes a -1 penalty to AC for every 40 feet they move as part of a charge. The effects of this feat last for one hour.

Ectovore [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to turn the tables on ethereal prey. The Nagual's natural attacks count as magic and as if they had the Ghost Touch weapon property. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.

Extend Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual's Seeming class feature lasts for two hours per level in the Nagual class instead of one.
Special: A Nagual who later gains the Perfect Seeming class feature replaces this feat with another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.

Extra Morphic Trait [Seeming]
Prerequisites: Morphic trait class feature.
Benefit: The Nagual gains one additional Morphic trait. The must meet all prerequisites for the chosen Morphic trait.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times.

Extra Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may use its Seeming class feature 2 extra times per day.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times and its effects stack. A Nagual who later gains the Perfect Seeming class feature replaces this feat with another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.

Extra Seeming Forms [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may select an extra Seeming Form known.
Special: The Nagual may not have more than 12 Seeming Forms known. This feat may be taken multiple times and its effects stack. When ever a Nagual would reach the maximum Seeming Forms known because of this feat and would normally have learned another Seeming Form known because of leveling up they may replace this feat for another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.

Falcon's Grace [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to grow a pair of strong, supple wings. The Nagual gains a flight speed equal to twice their base land speed with a maneuverability of Good. The effects of this feat last for one hour.

Gecko's Footpads [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to grow dozens of strong setae on each digit. The Nagual gains a climb speed equal to twice their base land speed. Any creature wishing to remove the Nagual from a surface it is climbing upon must make a DC 25 Strength to do so. The effects of this feat lasts for one hour.

Man-o-war's Sting [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to envenom their natural attacks. A Nagual's natural attacks deliver an injury poison, dealing 1d2 points of Constitution damage once every round for six rounds. Victims of the poison must make a (DC 10+1/2 the Nagual's total Hit Dice+the Nagual's Constitution modifier) Fortitude save to resist it initially. Two successful Fortitude saves are required to cure the poison if they fail the initial save. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.
Special: If the Nagual already possesses the Poison special attack they instead increase the save DC to resist and cure it by 2 and increase the damage it deals by one dice size. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.

Minor Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may use its Seeming class feature to make minute changes to their body. Using the Seeming class feature in this manner does not expend a daily usage of the class feature. Using this feat is a standard action, that does not cause an attack of opportunity and produces one of the following effects:
The Nagual gains one of the natural attacks of one of their Seeming Forms.
The Nagual gains a +2 bonus to one skill that one of their Seeming Forms has a racial bonus towards
The Nagual gains a +2 Natural armor bonus
The Nagual gains one of the movement modes of one of their Seeming Forms
The Nagual gains one of the sensory modes of one of their Seeming Forms

The effects of this feat lasts for 3+ the Nagual's Charisma modifier rounds (minimum 3). A Nagual may have no more effects of this feat than their Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Quick Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual only requires a move action to change shape instead of a standard action.
Special: A Nagual who later gains the Perfect Seeming class feature replaces this feat with another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.

Resilient Defense [Seeming]
Prerequisite: Shifting Defense class feature.
Benefit: If the Nagual would be subject to an attack, spell, ability or other effect that would affect the Nagual negatively they may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to delay it for 1 round. The Nagual may only use this feat once per round.

Rhino's Hide [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to increase their natural armor bonus by 5. This natural armor stacks with any other natural armor the Nagual possesses. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.

Shark's Patrol [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to grow gills and webbing suited for underwater movement. The Nagual can breathe underwater and gains a swim speed equal to twice their base land speed. The effects of this feat lasts for one hour.

Vicious Wound [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to deal terrible wounds with their natural attacks. Any creature damaged by the Nagual's natural attacks continue to bleed, losing 1 hit point per round. Multiple wounds do not result in cumulative bleeding loss. The bleeding can be stopped with a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any healing magic. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.

Wolverine's Tenacity [Seeming]
Benefit: If a Nagual's hit points are reduced to zero or less (but the Nagual is not killed), they may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to continue acting as if not disabled or dying. Additionally, the Nagual increases the threshold that they die of hit point loss from their Constitution score to their Constitution score+their levels in this class. The effects of this feat last for 10 minutes.
Special: If the Nagual possesses the Diehard feat their threshold is instead their Constitution score+twice their levels in this class.

Worm Skin [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to their class level. The Nagual may only use this ability once every 1d4 rounds and the temporary hit points gained from this feat last for one hour.





Favored Class Options
Dwarf - Add +1/4 to the Nagual's natural armor bonus when using their Seeming class feature.
Elf - Add +1/4 to the check result when the Nagual uses their Wild Empathy class feature to affect a creature of the animal type.
Gnome - The Nagual gains energy resistance 1 against acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Each time the Nagual selects this reward, increase her resistance to one of these energy types by +1 (maximum 10 for any one type). This stacks with the Energy Resistance granted by the Shifting Defense class feature.
Half-Elf - The Nagual gains 1/6 of a new Morphic trait.
Halfling - The range of the Nagual's sensory modes while using the Seeming class feature increases by 1 foot.
Half-Orc - Add +1/4 to the Nagual's Strength score when using their Seeming class feature.
Human - The Nagual gains 1/5 of a new Seeming Form known. Seeming Forms gained in this way do not count towards the maximum known, but may only be reselected when the Nagual gains a new Seeming Form known in this manner.




Archetypes


Patient Hunter

There are Nagual who eschew mastering their Seeming to the extents of others, seeing more virtue and knowledge in mimicking the subtle art of the hunt.

{table=head]Level|Special
1st|Track
2nd|Favored Enemy
3rd|Favored Terrain
8th|2nd Favored Enemy, 2nd Favored Terrain, Swift Tracker
10th|3rd Favored Enemy
12th|Camouflage
13th|3rd Favored Terrain
18th|4th Favored Enemy, 4th Favored Terrain
20th|5th Favored Enemy[/table]


Track (Ex.)
A patient hunter adds half their Nagual level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow or identify tracks.

This and the Swift Tracker ability replaces the Minor Seeming class feature.


Favored Enemy (Ex.)
At 2nd level, a patient hunter selects a favored enemy. This ability works identically to the ranger ability of the same name. At 8th, 10th, 18th, and 20th level, the patient hunter selects another favored enemy and increases their bonus against one favored enemy type, as described in the ranger class.

This ability replaces the Morphic trait the patient hunter receives at their 2nd, 8th, 10th, 18th and 20th level.


Favored Terrain (Ex)
At 3rd level, a patient hunter selects a favored terrain. This ability works identically to the ranger ability of the same name. At 8th, 13th, and 18th level, the patient hunter selects another favored terrain and increases their bonus in one favored terrain, as described in the ranger class.

This ability replaces the Fluid Seeming class feature.


Swift Tracker (Ex)
Beginning at 8th level, a patient hunter can move at their normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. They take only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

This and the Track ability replaces the Minor Seeming class feature.


Camouflage (Ex)
A patient hunter of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of their favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.

This ability replaces the Morphic trait the patient hunter receives at 12th level.


Seeming Forms
Carnivorous and Omnivorous creatures compliment the patient hunter archetype, seeing as they are possessed of the hunting instinct that the patient hunter seeks to mimic and master.

[Tanuki Tales]

Reserved for much later use.

[Tanuki Tales]

Added in forgotten rules text to the Seeming class feature and also added in an "Other Classes" section to the fluff.

[Tanuki Tales]

I've added 4 feats unique to the class.

And over a hundred page views and nary a comment? Should I be worried? :smalltongue:

[Hanuman]

This forum focuses on 3.5; you should put PF in the title so they're prepared.:smallsmile:
This sounds like a class made of the Hengeyokai from oriental adventures, also I'd look up the feats for druid that allow humanoid bonuses for wildshape ability if you've ever turned into a specific animal type, like scent ability.

Speaking of scent, I'm surprised you don't have scent, track and other sensory abilities unlocked without being in animal form, that's totally what I think of when I think shapechanger or embodiment.

[SamBurke]

Finally! Some Pf homebrew! I like it, though some of the feats give what their augmented feature already did.

[Tanuki Tales]

Anything I make is 3.PF (3.75, Dungeonfinder, what ever name you want to use), not exclusively Pathfinder. It can easily be converted to and fro (unless I really screwed something up).

@Hanuman: Scent falls under Vision modes, as do Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight, etc. But I guess I should change vision to sensory, shouldn't I?

@Sam: Which is why the feats can be traded in. They're there to alleviate play for the Nagual at low levels and are nice things at higher levels, but don't end up being a waste once you're at a certain point where they'd be pointless or useless.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alrighty, I changed a lot of things in this class with this latest update. I personally felt that Draconic Majesty was being gained far too late to really matter since there currently isn't too much of a mechanic to restructure the Seeming Forms you know. With the re-organization now you have the option of having at most 40% of your Forms being of the Dragon type instead of just at most 20% as the class originally allowed.

I also moved around a lot of other things and added in a few new bells and whistles, but you can see all the changes in the Change Log.

And the thread is now over 300 page views with nary a major negative critique; I think I can jot that down as a success, yes? :smalltongue:

[Tanuki Tales]

Bumping for further comments.

Almost 400 page views and only 2 comments? :smallconfused:

[jiriku]

Well, the class is well-executed, so there's little to comment upon. Also, shapeshifters are notoriously hard to assess, and you've compounded the problem by granting access to a menu of special abilities that aren't described in the OP. Likely most posters either don't see anything to critique or don't feel they grasp the implications of the class sufficiently to do so.

Class in general: You did a really fine job of creating a unique approach to shapeshifting that's more than just a subset of an existing class. Naguals can do things with alternate forms that other classes can't do, providing a real reason to investigate the class. Kudos.

1st level: It's a little too spare. You have one modest form for one hour per day, then you have to fall back on your martial weapon and light armor. I'd recommend accelerating Minor Seeming to 1st level.

Overall: This class suffers from feature glut; it is more complicated than it needs to be. I would recommend fewer overall features with more individual power behind each feature. Remember, the forms themselves will provide the needed versatility.

Morphic Traits: Don't know what these do; can't critique. Link to source material?

Power Balance:
For my taste, this class plays it safe power-wise and maybe comes up a little bit short. Even though you moved quite a few features forward when you restructured the class, benefits like extraordinary natural attacks, poison immunity, and fast healing are gained very late, when other characters already have much better stuff. Available forms tend to lack interesting special abilities beyond such things as constrict, improved grab, poison, and trip, and even these abilities arrive late. I'd suggest dispensing with a lot of the minor features gained at lower levels and shifting the remaining features downward to evenly distribute them.
I'd recommend a d10 hit die. This is more appropriate mechanically, because your primary means of interacting with monsters is through melee combat and you have few defensive features. It's also more appropriate thematically, because a nagual eventually becomes a magical beast and magical beasts have a d10 hit die.

Specific Edits:
Seeming: I assume the bonus hit points are the difference between your maximum hit points and the average maximum for the creature type?
Fluid Seeming: By the time this feature it gained, it's worth very little because the nagual already has a boatload of Seeming uses. It should be granted earlier, when the budget of daily uses is still very tight.
True Shape: antimagic field and its relatives generally lack a save DC, so you'll need to provide one.
Sinuous Seeming and Healing Pulse: These features are terribad for the levels at which they're gained. I'd recommend you move them down about 4-7 levels or simply dispense with them and beef up the other high-level features in compensation.

[Tanuki Tales]

Huzzah! A hard, solid critique!


Well, the class is well-executed, so there's little to comment upon.

Thank you kindly for the high praise! :smallredface:


Also, shapeshifters are notoriously hard to assess, and you've compounded the problem by granting access to a menu of special abilities that aren't described in the OP. Likely most posters either don't see anything to critique or don't feel they grasp the implications of the class sufficiently to do so.

Link added directly to the menu.


Class in general: You did a really fine job of creating a unique approach to shapeshifting that's more than just a subset of an existing class. Naguals can do things with alternate forms that other classes can't do, providing a real reason to investigate the class. Kudos.

Thanks. :smallredface:


1st level: It's a little too spare. You have one modest form for one hour per day, then you have to fall back on your martial weapon and light armor. I'd recommend accelerating Minor Seeming to 1st level.


You've got a point. I originally added in Minor Seeming at 3rd so that 3rd wouldn't seem sparse and boring. But I'll see what I can do.


Overall: This class suffers from feature glut; it is more complicated than it needs to be. I would recommend fewer overall features with more individual power behind each feature. Remember, the forms themselves will provide the needed versatility.

I'll think this one over and see what's doable.


Morphic Traits: Don't know what these do; can't critique. Link to source material?

Link added.


Power Balance:
For my taste, this class plays it safe power-wise and maybe comes up a little bit short. Even though you moved quite a few features forward when you restructured the class, benefits like extraordinary natural attacks, poison immunity, and fast healing are gained very late, when other characters already have much better stuff. Available forms tend to lack interesting special abilities beyond such things as constrict, improved grab, poison, and trip, and even these abilities arrive late. I'd suggest dispensing with a lot of the minor features gained at lower levels and shifting the remaining features downward to evenly distribute them.

I'll see what I can do when I have some time to really do some work on the class (probably later tonight or tomorrow).


I'd recommend a d10 hit die. This is more appropriate mechanically, because your primary means of interacting with monsters is through melee combat and you have few defensive features. It's also more appropriate thematically, because a nagual eventually becomes a magical beast and magical beasts have a d10 hit die.

I started with a d8 HD because that seems to be the sweet spot for classes that get a lot of options and power and versatility. Or at least it's a somewhat balanced starting point that can be raised or lowered as the process goes on. But this was meant to be a tank class, so the HD has been increased.


Specific Edits:
Seeming: I assume the bonus hit points are the difference between your maximum hit points and the average maximum for the creature type?

Well, no. I tried to word it similar to the Bonus HP you get from a Barbarian's rage, but I guess I messed that up. What it's trying to say is that you get bonus hp for turning into something with a bigger Con score than you but you don't lose HP for turning into something with a smaller one.


Fluid Seeming: By the time this feature it gained, it's worth very little because the nagual already has a boatload of Seeming uses. It should be granted earlier, when the budget of daily uses is still very tight.

True. But since it was based off the War Shaper's Multimorph capstone I didn't know if it'd be appropriate to give it earlier than it granted it.


True Shape: antimagic field and its relatives generally lack a save DC, so you'll need to provide one.

I thought saving throws default to 10+Spell level+Caster ability mod.


Sinuous Seeming and Healing Pulse: These features are terribad for the levels at which they're gained. I'd recommend you move them down about 4-7 levels or simply dispense with them and beef up the other high-level features in compensation.

Good points. The reach was just added in where it was for convenience sake when building it and I can't really remember why I put the Fast Healing so late.

Thanks for your input!

[jiriku]

Well, no. I tried to word it similar to the Bonus HP you get from a Barbarian's rage, but I guess I messed that up. What it's trying to say is that you get bonus hp for turning into something with a bigger Con score than you but you don't lose HP for turning into something with a smaller one.

Oh, well that does make more sense than my original reading of it. Carry on then, carry on! :smallsmile:


True. But since it was based off the War Shaper's Multimorph capstone I didn't know if it'd be appropriate to give it earlier than it granted it.

I think you're alright setting it earlier. Warshaper assumes a druid entry, meaning fewer uses per day at any given level than a seeker.


I thought saving throws default to 10+Spell level+Caster ability mod. Yes! But not everyone knows that. Also, if you troll through enough sourcebooks and modules, some effects that suppress magic are supernatural, extraordinary, or just plain environmental (think the dead magic zones in Faerun) -- these don't have an effective spell level.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alrighty folks, some more big changes have been made but the changes aren't done by a long shot!

Currently the class has no 19th level and will pretty soon have no 9th level ability. I'll do my best to think up replacements for those open slots.

[Tanuki Tales]

Finally, some more updates!

[jiriku]

Kitten Soul is listed twice in the class description. Although not essential, it would be nice to have a note in each ability description stating the level at which the ability is gained, so so the reader doesn't have to scroll back and forth while learning the class.

Other than that, looks pretty tight to me. I'd play it.

[Tanuki Tales]

Kitten Soul is listed twice in the class description.

Ugh, stupid copy/paste errors.


Although not essential, it would be nice to have a note in each ability description stating the level at which the ability is gained, so so the reader doesn't have to scroll back and forth while learning the class.

I didn't include them so I didn't have to keep looking back and forth when originally writing the class and so that I wouldn't constantly be changing things when things in the class moved around.

When this class is done and I have the time, I'll probably go back and add them in.


Other than that, looks pretty tight to me. I'd play it.

Awesome. ^^


The only things I have planned left is several more Seeming feats and a guide on what forms are best to use.

[Tanuki Tales]

Four new feats added!


Looking back at the class, I found myself pondering over what it is capable of and I discovered a few things:

The Nagual doesn't lose any of the features of its previous form. So a Minotaur Nagual still has a gore attack, a Warforged Nagual still has all its goodies and an Undead Nagual is still undead.
The Nagual is not prevented from taking the forms of templated creatures as long as they aren't unique (which I know is loopholey, but a Shadow Horse is a horse from the Plane of Shadow and thus not unique, for example).
The Nagual isn't prevented from choosing swarms or dire animals to be one of their Seeming forms.

And I have to wonder if there's anything wrong with those three things.


Edit: And I still must admit at being surprised that this thread has nearly 700 page views and only 3 people have made any comments on it.

[Tanuki Tales]

Another three feats up folks!

[SamBurke]

Let's look at each of those Seeming feats on their own, and analyze them.



Character Options


Feats

Seeming Feats
Feats with the "[Seeming]" tag can only be taken by characters who possess the Seeming class feature. Each use of a Seeming feat generally uses up one daily usage of the Seeming class feature and a Seeming feat can not be activated if the character has no daily usages of Seeming left. Unless noted otherwise, activating a Seeming feat is a standard action and only one Seeming feat can be activated per round (though overlapping durations may allow a character to benefit from more than one Seeming feat).

Activating a Seeming feat is a supernatural ability and does not provoke an attack of opportunity unless otherwise stated.

[QUOTE]
Cougar Strike [Seeming]
Benefit: At the beginning of an encounter (after rolling for Initiative), the Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature as a free action to gain the Pounce special attack for the duration of the encounter.
Special: If the Nagual already has the Pounce special attack they instead do not take the -2 penalty to AC for performing a charge and may move three times their speed instead of twice. The effects of this feat last for the duration of the encounter.

Pounce. OK, cool. Useful indeed... this is one feat I'd look at carefully, though. That comes at mid to late levels for any other classes that get it (all I can think of is the Barbarian Greater Beast Totem Rage Power, Level 10, 2 pre-reqs).



Deer's Pursuit [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to double their base land speed. Once per hour the Nagual may also go into a dead sprint, moving 10 times their modified base land speed as part of a charge. The effects of this feat last for one hour.

Extra move speed. Nothing too fantastic, unless you're chasing or such.



Extend Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual's Seeming class feature lasts for two hours per level in the Nagual class instead of one.
Special: A Nagual who later gains the Perfect Seeming class feature replaces this feat with another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.

Nice. Essential for a scouting/utility/flyer build. Melee, not so much. Encounters don't ever last this long. I like the "replace" clause on that. Good addition. Makes it muuuuch easier to take.



Extra Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may use its Seeming class feature 2 extra times per day.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times and its effects stack. A Nagual who later gains the Perfect Seeming class feature replaces this feat with another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.

Utilitarian. Needed at lower levels, replaced by lvl 20. I'd take this one pretty quick (IE, First Level.)



Extra Seeming Forms [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may select an extra Seeming Form known.
Special: The Nagual may not have more than 10 Seeming Forms known. This feat may be taken multiple times and its effects stack. When ever a Nagual would reach the maximum Seeming Forms known because of this feat and would normally have learned another Seeming Form known because of leveling up they may replace this feat for another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.

Useful at low levels, indeed. Probably after first, though. Does this apply to all seeming forms? (IE, those gained at later levels)



Falcon's Grace [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to grow a pair of strong, supple wings. The Nagual gains a flight speed equal to twice their base land speed with a maneuverability of Good. The effects of this feat last for one hour.

NO. Seeming=wings? Um... no. Waaaaay early for that stuff. Unless, of course, you're a caster who deserves such amazing-ness. XD. I still think it might be too much. 60 foot fly, good, for an hour? Think about some pre-reqs here, perhaps.



Man-o-war's Sting [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to envenom their natural attacks. A Nagual's natural attacks deliver an injury poison, dealing 1d2 points of Constitution damage once every round for six rounds. Victims of the poison must make a (DC 10+1/2 the Nagual's total Hit Dice+the Nagual's Constitution modifier) Fortitude save to resist it initially. Two successful Fortitude saves are required to cure the poison if they fail the initial save. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.
Special: If the Nagual already possesses the Poison special attack they instead increase the save DC to resist and cure it by 2 and increase the damage it deals by one dice size. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.

Not bad, not bad at all. I like that it's not tied specifically to the class, but their HD, which seems to be more "primal" to me. But only 10 minutes? Seems too short for just a minor benefit, especially when compared to wings.



Minor Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may use its Seeming class feature to make minute changes to their body. Using the Seeming class feature in this manner does not expend a daily usage of the class feature. Using this feat is a standard action, that does not cause an attack of opportunity and produces one of the following effects:
The Nagual gains one of the natural attacks of one of their Seeming Forms.
The Nagual gains a +2 bonus to one skill that one of their Seeming Forms has a racial bonus towards
The Nagual gains a +2 Natural armor bonus
The Nagual gains one of the movement modes of one of their Seeming Forms
The Nagual gains one of the sensory modes of one of their Seeming Forms

The effects of this feat lasts for 3+ the Nagual's Charisma modifier rounds (minimum 3). A Nagual may have no more effects of this feat than their Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

WOAH. Short duration. I'd really only take this for the Armor Bonus or natural attack, though, a dire bat or some such could have some sweet sensory modes.




Quick Seeming [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual only requires a move action to change shape instead of a standard action.
Special: A Nagual who later gains the Perfect Seeming class feature replaces this feat with another feat of their choosing that they qualify for.




Rhino's Hide [Seeming]
Benefit: The Nagual may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to increase their natural armor bonus by 5. This natural armor stacks with any other natural armor the Nagual possesses. The effects of this feat lasts for 10 minutes.

Um... a little much, perhaps? Maybe equal to Con mod... duration seems about right, though.



Wolverine's Tenacity [Seeming]
Benefit: If a Nagual's hit points are reduced to zero or less (but the Nagual is not killed), they may expend one daily usage of their Seeming class feature to continue acting as if not disabled or dying. Additionally, the Nagual increases the threshold that they die of hit point loss from their Constitution score to their Constitution score+their levels in this class. The effects of this feat last for 10 minutes.
Special: If the Nagual possesses the Diehard feat their threshold is instead their Constitution score+twice their levels in this class.

SWEET. I don't think this is overpowered, but fluff wise and crunch wise, it works pretty awesome.


Overall, I think these are nice, and add quite a bit to the class (customization!). I might change some of the times, and think about adding pre-reqs to these as well. NOTE: Pre-reqs are annoying. Really annoying. Use with caution.

[Tanuki Tales]

Don't have the time right this second to give a good reply, but you get Minor Seeming as a bonus feat at level 1.

[Volthawk]

On pounce: Spirit Lion Totem Barbarians get it at level 1, all the time, in exchange for Fast Movement.

[Siosilvar]

Pounce. OK, cool. Useful indeed... this is one feat I'd look at carefully, though. That comes at mid to late levels for any other classes that get it (all I can think of is the Barbarian Greater Beast Totem Rage Power, Level 10, 2 pre-reqs).Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian ACF, Complete Champion. Give up fast movement, get full pounce at level 1.

Psywar 4: Manifest psionic lion's charge, gain pounce on one charge (technically, you get pounce forever, nondispellable, due to a quirk with instantaneous duration, but it's fairly obvious what intent was).

Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), one of Person Man's excellent guides.

[Tanuki Tales]

Only time for something short, so if I miss or need to say anything else, it'll have to wait 4 or 5 hours.

Pounce has been addressed without me needing to say anything.

Falcon's Grace isn't that big to me because a Nagual can already have fly out of the gate. Maybe not 60 feet with good manueverability, but it seems odd that you say something negative about the feat and not the selection of forms.

Man-o-war: I see Poison, especially Con damage, as more useful at low levels than Flight.

Quick Seeming: It's doing what a lot of the Seeming feats do, granting something better sooner until you get it.

Rhino: That's somewhat worse than Elephant's Hide, which gave a flat +7 Natural.

And I'm out for 4 hours! Ciao all, address things when I get the time.

[Tanuki Tales]

Four new feats added!


Looking back at the class, I found myself pondering over what it is capable of and I discovered a few things:

The Nagual doesn't lose any of the features of its previous form. So a Minotaur Nagual still has a gore attack, a Warforged Nagual still has all its goodies and an Undead Nagual is still undead.
The Nagual is not prevented from taking the forms of templated creatures as long as they aren't unique (which I know is loopholey, but a Shadow Horse is a horse from the Plane of Shadow and thus not unique, for example).
The Nagual isn't prevented from choosing swarms or dire animals to be one of their Seeming forms.

And I have to wonder if there's anything wrong with those three things.




Ok, I lied. Got enough time from my break during the jerb to come in here for some stuff.

Now, anyone have anything to weigh in on these musings I had?

Edit: I'm also highly amused that I've seen 4 or 5 shapeshifting base class on the first two pages today.

[Tanuki Tales]

Three more feats added!

[jiriku]

Looking back at the class, I found myself pondering over what it is capable of and I discovered a few things:

The Nagual doesn't lose any of the features of its previous form. So a Minotaur Nagual still has a gore attack, a Warforged Nagual still has all its goodies and an Undead Nagual is still undead.
The Nagual is not prevented from taking the forms of templated creatures as long as they aren't unique (which I know is loopholey, but a Shadow Horse is a horse from the Plane of Shadow and thus not unique, for example).
The Nagual isn't prevented from choosing swarms or dire animals to be one of their Seeming forms.

And I have to wonder if there's anything wrong with those three things.

I'd recommend against keeping original features. Some of the results can be nonsensical (how do you gore if you don't have anything pointy on your head?), and others might create unexpectedly powerful combinations when added to obscure monsters from books you aren't familiar with. Bad mojo.

Templates are likewise bad mojo. You don't know what they do. Unless you've done a survey of every template in 3.5 and found them all to be non-cheesy when combined with every possible seeming form, you could be breaking your class in half and not know it.

Dire animals seem fine to me, and swarms may be ok, but consider carefully the impact of being able to turn into a creature that's immune to weapon damage.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'd recommend against keeping original features. Some of the results can be nonsensical (how do you gore if you don't have anything pointy on your head?), and others might create unexpectedly powerful combinations when added to obscure monsters from books you aren't familiar with. Bad mojo.

Well, unlike Wildshape, Seeming isn't based off the Alternate Form special quality or the Beast Shape, Elemental Body, or Plant Shape spells; It's its own unique mechanic. And since I didn't detail that you lose your own natural attacks when taking a form, the Minotaur would still have its horns.

Can you name any problems that come to your mind? Because when I make my classes I always make them with them with the plan of falling between Tier 1 and Tier 3; so far all my homebrew has been Tier 3 but I wouldn't mind pushing Tier 2 or 1.


Templates are likewise bad mojo. You don't know what they do. Unless you've done a survey of every template in 3.5 and found them all to be non-cheesy when combined with every possible seeming form, you could be breaking your class in half and not know it.

Well, as I said, you need to be loopholey with templates. Shadow Horses or Shadow anything is fair game because they're non-unique templated creatures. But..like...a Paragon Rat wouldn't be or a Half-Dragon Displacer Beast or a Saint Blink Dog or etc. I'll probably add a little tag like I did with Aberrations that DM approval is necessary for it.


Dire animals seem fine to me, and swarms may be ok, but consider carefully the impact of being able to turn into a creature that's immune to weapon damage.

Yes, Swarms are immune to weapon damage, but thinking over it the trade off might be fair. They can't manipulate objects like a normal creature could (even a horse or seal), stealth is right out the window and it does end up giving you vulnerabilities that regular forms wouldn't need to even really worry about.

[Tanuki Tales]

One feat updated and four new feats added!

[Tanuki Tales]

Bumping for further comments and critiquing.

I have some ideas for Prestige Classes that are either designed just for this class or as dual-progression/blending of this class and others and I want to make sure that this class is fine tuned.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, added in rules text preventing the selection of templated forms and creatures made up of multiple creatures.

I was thinking though that access to these kinds of forms could be granted through feats. Does this sound appropriate or should it be something that is only allowed through a prestige class?

And since we're on feats, no one really said anything about the Seeming feats I created.

Edit: Whoops. Forgot about Sam's original post on the feats. I think I changed/updated them since though.

[Acidic_Cakes]

Fluid Seeming (Su): The line between the Nagual's natural form and those it assumes has become almost nonexistent. The Nagual reverting to its natural form and then back into another no longer causes a use of Seeming to expire.

This is a bit vaguely written. Does it mean that you can stay in animal form indefinitely, as long as you keep continuously shifting between forms?

Otherwise, I very much like this, and may have to try it out later on.

[Tanuki Tales]

This is a bit vaguely written. Does it mean that you can stay in animal form indefinitely, as long as you keep continuously shifting between forms?



Changing shape is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A Nagual can use this ability a number of times per day equal to its total levels in this class and each use of Seeming lasts for one hour per level it possesses in this class. A use of Seeming expires either when the time limit is reached or the Nagual returns to its natural form.

Relevant rules text from the Seeming class feature with the specific instance of import bolded.



Otherwise, I very much like this, and may have to try it out later on.

Thanks!

And if you do, please give me your feedback and such. None of my homebrew has actually been used as far as I know as of yet.

[DracoDei]

You are granting Minor Seeming at first level, rather than third.

[Tanuki Tales]

You are granting Minor Seeming at first level, rather than third.

Huh?

Stupid 10 character minimum.

[Curious]

Throwing out an idea here; maybe you can take a bit of a tip from the Pathfinder beast form spells here, and make seemings grant you the physical stat bonuses of the creature you turn into? The math for that is the creatures stats -10 rounded down to an even number. It would make the base characters stats matter some more, and might be something of a power boost. However, it would also make transforming a bit more complex, which could be bad.

EDIT: Some actual critique; I think you should move Elephant Heart and Kitten Soul to lower levels, before level six, actually. The druid, who gets wildshape much later than this class, can transform into tiny animals at 6th level, and huge animals at 8th level. This class doesn't get to transform into huge creatures 'till 13th level.

[Tanuki Tales]

Throwing out an idea here; maybe you can take a bit of a tip from the Pathfinder beast form spells here, and make seemings grant you the physical stat bonuses of the creature you turn into? The math for that is the creatures stats -10 rounded down to an even number. It would make the base characters stats matter some more, and might be something of a power boost. However, it would also make transforming a bit more complex, which could be bad.

And was exactly what I was avoiding and the whole reason I even made this class.

Paizo's staff flat out stated that their opinion of Wildshape (and by extension shapeshifting period) should be used for scouting and utility, nothing more.

[Curious]

And was exactly what I was avoiding and the whole reason I even made this class.

Paizo's staff flat out stated that their opinion of Wildshape (and by extension shapeshifting period) should be used for scouting and utility, nothing more.

Uh, just because they think of wildshape as useless doesn't mean that the method isn't sound.

Also, edited my post.

EDIT: Further editing; wizards can turn into dragons at 11th level.

[Tanuki Tales]

Uh, just because they think of wildshape as useless doesn't mean that the method isn't sound.

Also, edited my post.

EDIT: Further editing; wizards can turn into dragons at 11th level.

Hm....

Do you think the Tier would be dramatically affected if I did change it as such?

Just using a Cheetah for example, the character would have +6 Strength, +8 Dex and +4 Con before factoring anything else in.

At level 1.

The first major problem I see with pushing back everything to let the class match the Wizard form for spell is that it would leave the first half of the class very front loaded and the back end of the class empty. And dragons were meant to be the late game reward for sticking with the class.

I could give Outsiders, but they tend to be very dodgy, especially since Fast Healing, Regeneration and Damage Reduction are all Extraordinary qualities.

[Curious]

Hm....

Do you think the Tier would be dramatically affected if I did change it as such?

Just using a Cheetah for example, the character would have +6 Strength, +8 Dex and +4 Con before factoring anything else in.

At level 1.


Hm. That would make them a good bit stronger, but I don't think that would actually change their tier. They are no more versatile, and there are plenty of other melee builds that can put out much more damage.



The first major problem I see with pushing back everything to let the class match the Wizard form for spell is that it would leave the first half of the class very front loaded and the back end of the class empty. And dragons were meant to be the late game reward for sticking with the class.

I could give Outsiders, but they tend to be very dodgy, especially since Fast Healing, Regeneration and Damage Reduction are all Extraordinary qualities.

It would be a little front-loaded, yes, but it's not that bad. None of the abilities are that fantastic, and delaying them as much as they are now just seems like an unnecessary nerf.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, made some updates. Check the Change log for further details.

[Tanuki Tales]

Hm...maybe they get half the animal's racial ability bonuses (rounded down) until a certain point and then get full?

Because a +18 total stat bump at level one just feels really overpowered to me. But I may just be overreacting.

[The Anarresti]

I would suggest that, instead of using the physical stat scores of the animal you are assuming, instead replace your racial modifiers with those of that creature (score-10 if even number, score-11 if odd.) That way, stats actually matter a bit when making this class. Otherwise, it seems, at best, a SAD class, if not NAD (no ability dependent)
EDIT: swordsage'd

[Tanuki Tales]

I would suggest that, instead of using the physical stat scores of the animal you are assuming, instead replace your racial modifiers with those of that creature (score-10 if even number, score-11 if odd.) That way, stats actually matter a bit when making this class. Otherwise, it seems, at best, a SAD class, if not NAD (no ability dependent)

There's still the issue of it being a +18 at level 1 across the physical board. I mean, that's a slightly better idea than Curious' (no offense meant at all) since you'd be dropping the racial bonuses from the race in favor of the creature's, instead of having both.


EDIT: swordsage'd

By 9 days, heh. :smalltongue:

[The Anarresti]

see this is what happens when you get sleep deprived...
Maybe you could make a rule that you can replace a racial bonus up to +2(level) for any level. Say, for level 1 you can not increase any score by more than +2, no matter what form you change into, level 2 you can gain a +4 bonus, et cetera

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, let's see how that works.

[Curious]

There's still the issue of it being a +18 at level 1 across the physical board. I mean, that's a slightly better idea than Curious' (no offense meant at all)-

None taken. I think it looks pretty good now, definitely more balanced than what I was proposing. Perhaps you should make some kind of list of appropriate Outsiders that you can gain as a Seeming? Also, and idea for expanding the capstone, if you feel the need; perhaps you could transform into Gargantuan creatures as well.

[Tanuki Tales]

Perhaps you should make some kind of list of appropriate Outsiders that you can gain as a Seeming?

Then I'd need to make one for Aberrations too. I feel that's something that should be left to the hands of the GM and I've given at least 2 guideline examples for both.


Also, and idea for expanding the capstone, if you feel the need; perhaps you could transform into Gargantuan creatures as well.

Hm...there's a thought.

[Curious]

Then I'd need to make one for Aberrations too. I feel that's something that should be left to the hands of the GM and I've given at least 2 guideline examples for both.

Reasonable.



Hm...there's a thought.

I only suggest it because the capstone as it is gives several rather situational abilities, and one nice ability. I think being able to transform into even more gigantic creatures would be a pretty awesome thing to receive after 20 levels.

[Kurtmuran]

looks fine to me BUT i think you write wrong the name
if you are get inspired your class by the mesoamerican druids called NAHUAL

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahual

[Tanuki Tales]

looks fine to me BUT i think you write wrong the name
if you are get inspired your class by the mesoamerican druids called NAHUAL

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahual

Thanks for taking the time and effort to type your post in English, but no, I didn't spell it wrong.

Apparently Nahual is the predominant spelling for the term on the Spanish Wikipedia (which is odd that you link to that one when your post is in English), but Nagual is the predominant spelling on the English Wikipedia.

And I prefer it to the other spelling regardless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagual

[Darkkwalker]

So I've been playing this class in my weekly game.
Fast healing whenever you are in Seeming mode is kinda OP. Consider doing something to tone it down. We kinda had to in our game.

[Tanuki Tales]

So I've been playing this class in my weekly game.
Fast healing whenever you are in Seeming mode is kinda OP. Consider doing something to tone it down. We kinda had to in our game.

Not really. The Fast Healing doesn't come online till 7th level and only scales as you take on forms that increases your constitution higher and as your level allows it.

I'm not awake enough to give you the blow by blow breakdown, but either I will be later or someone courtesy enough who's lurking or stops by will.

If it's a post by post, please link.

[Jacior]

I have a question about Fluid Seeming.

It says shift between a form, into your natural form, and then into ANOTHER form without expending a use of seeming.

Does that mean I can go between any of my forms for as long as that use of seeming is up? Or that I can go between two forms as that as that seeming is up?

[Tanuki Tales]

I have a question about Fluid Seeming.

It says shift between a form, into your natural form, and then into ANOTHER form without expending a use of seeming.

Does that mean I can go between any of my forms for as long as that use of seeming is up? Or that I can go between two forms as that as that seeming is up?

Well, firstly, next time shoot me a private message that you have a question if you don't mind. Your post was dangerously close to being thread necromancy, but luckily it's only be five weeks since my last post, not six.

As to your question, once you get Fluid Seeming you can shift between any of your forms without ending the currently active Seeming use.

[Jacior]

I apologize... What is thread necromancy?

[Tanuki Tales]

I apologize... What is thread necromancy?

Posting in a thread six weeks or more after the last post. It's a minor infraction of the rules and gets a thread locked.


Anyways, I updated the capstone!

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, since this class (and I'm openly admitting it) is my favorite piece of Homebrew that I've yet created, I found myself taking a look at it again for the first time in 7 months. And when you look over old 'brew, especially those based off of existing mechanics, you'll probably find yourself going to see what updates occurred in the main source material since you last updated said 'brew.


So, I'm checking to see if there were any new rage powers added since I made this class what it was back in February and I realized that while no new rage powers had been added, that the concept of archetypes and racial favored class options had been.

So I've gone and made a few updates and changes to the class, so please take a gander at what you think!



---------------------

Wow. Can't believe it's almost been a year since I originally made this class. :smallbiggrin:

[ThiagoMartell]

Should have average BAB and d8 HD. It doesn't really match the other full BAB PF classes.

[Tanuki Tales]

Should have average BAB and d8 HD. It doesn't really match the other full BAB PF classes.

Mind clarifying your opinion?

[Novawurmson]

My contention is that this class gets almost everything the Barbarian gets, plus more. From another thread on this class:


But...the problem is with the seeming class feature. What would you give up with a Barbarian to give it:

-Scaling natural armor up to +10 at level 20.
-burrow, climb fly, or swim speed
-normal, low-light, darkvision, scent, tremorsense, blind sense or blind sight
-+2 to a skill (that can be changed), scaling to +10 at level 20.
-Scaling amount of natural attacks
-"Rage" that lasts an hour per class level, usable a number times per day equal to class level. For reference, that means at level 5, you can remain permanently transformed - even the Druid doesn't get this until level 8 (5 times x 5 hours =25 hours); you can do this at level 4 with either Extra Seeming or Extend Seeming. Also, it doesn't expire if you revert back to your natural form at level 3. Granted, it takes a standard action to change shapes (without a feat or before level 20).
-immunity to poison, stunning, fatigue, and exhaustion
-Fast healing that scales with Con
-Fortification 75%
-Reach that stacks with all other reach
-A saving throw against AMF
-Dr Con+5/Cold Iron and Magic
-Energy resistance
-Ability to increase in size

So yes, when you take away Seeming, the Barbarian stacks up fairly well. When you add in Seeming... not so much. Also remember that they get Rage Powers as a Barbarian, completely negating much of what makes the Barbarian unique.

You know how the Ninja kind of replaced the Rogue in most optimizer's minds because it basically gets everything the Rogue gets, but better? It's very similar. Imagine if I made a class that was almost exactly like the Paladin, only it got to ride a dragon, and got some bonus defensive features. That's kind of what I'm seeing.

[Tanuki Tales]

My contention is that this class gets almost everything the Barbarian gets, plus more. From another thread on this class:

Well, I don't see much issues with that though. Barbarian was Tier 4 in 3.5 and pretty much stayed Tier 4 in Pathfinder.


But...the problem is with the seeming class feature. What would you give up with a Barbarian to give it:

-Snip-

I don't know.

I wouldn't use the base Barbarian if I was homebrewing something around the concept of the Barbarian. I'd make a class that was more durable and could do more interesting things outside of "I go rawr and pick up the great axe".



So yes, when you take away Seeming, the Barbarian stacks up fairly well.

Erm, of course it stacks up well. As I pointed out, without the Seeming class feature, this class is a very strong NPC class/ridiculously weak (Tier 6 easy or lower) PC class.


When you add in Seeming... not so much.

Barbarian is Tier 4. Thems the breaks.


Also remember that they get Rage Powers as a Barbarian, completely negating much of what makes the Barbarian unique.

Two things in that regard:

1. The Nagual never had access to the full Rage Powers list, only those that I felt thematically made sense.
2. I've since changed it so a Nagual is equal to a Barbarian of their level-4, so the Barbarian still gets the quickest and most bang for their buck out of Rage Powers. But I will still be reviewing how to cut down on outshining the Barbarian in that regard.


You know how the Ninja kind of replaced the Rogue in most optimizer's minds because it basically gets everything the Rogue gets, but better? It's very similar. Imagine if I made a class that was almost exactly like the Paladin, only it got to ride a dragon, and got some bonus defensive features. That's kind of what I'm seeing.

I don't see what's wrong with that though. If you're making something that is "X Class but better", than there has to be a reason you think the class needs improvement or the concept/role needs a better plate of options open to you. Just because an iconic class was there first doesn't mean everything following needs to pigeonhole or nerf itself intentionally so as to not outshine that class because it has a weaker design that wasn't fixed.

[Novawurmson]

If you had made this post:


"The Barbarian is a uncivilized front-line character that unfortunately sits in tier 4, a little below my preferred power level. I made this class to replace the Barbarian in high-power games without drifting into tier 1 territory like the Druid."

...I might have given this class a standing ovation. The Barbarian is mostly based on the berserker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker), warriors who stoked themselves into a fury to become unstoppable on the battlefield, and, because of their animal skins, were sometimes said to transform into different animals, so there's a lot of cool fluff behind it. However, the introduction I was given for this class was "Break this class," which I inferred meant that you believed the class was balanced enough for play.

The problem isn't necessarily that this class is just better than the Barbarian. By most measures, the Barbarian is better than the Fighter. By most measures, the Druid is better than the Barbarian (potentially even at raw damage - I seem to remember Druids doing well in the DPR Olympics on the PF forums). However, these indictments are on the heads of the Paizo/WotC designers, not yours.

My primary contention is that you gave your homebrew class better class features than the Barbarian and gave it the Barbarians rage powers (though I'm glad you've reduced that somewhat) - and for the most part, gave them the best Barbarian rage powers (sans the beast totem line for pounce, which the Nagual gets anyway, earlier, and with less investment and the dragon totem line for flying...which the Nagual gets anyway, earlier, and with less investment).

This is the primary problem behind the tier system: It's fine that the Cleric can heal people and the Fighter can't. They have different class features, so they should be different. The problem is/was that the 3.5 Cleric could persist Divine Power and other buffs, giving it almost everything the Fighter got and more.

My suggested courses of action:

1. Specifically state that this class is supposed to replace Barbarians in a campaign.

OR

2. Drastically reduce or entirely remove the Nagual's rate of acquisition of rage powers. One at level 4 and every four levels thereafter (or less) could work.

AND/OR

3. Drastically reduce the number of rage powers the Nagual can pick from (perhaps half a dozen) and create an entirely new group of special abilities that the Nagual can pick from for Morphic Traits.

I'll repeat a concept I bought up last time: If I made a frontline warrior with a unique, powerful, flexible core class feature, and then gave it all of the Fighter's bonus feats (even if there were extra restrictions on which feats it could take), that would be bad game design.

Edit: You also see this concept brought up with the Druid (especially the 3.5 Druid). They get ninth level casting AND wildshape (which was powerful enough in 3.5 to make them tier 3 alone) AND an animal companion that is at many levels better than the Fighter. Mathematically better.

[nedz]

As requested. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13919512&postcount=15)

[Tanuki Tales]

If you had made this post:

"The Barbarian is a uncivilized front-line character that unfortunately sits in tier 4, a little below my preferred power level. I made this class to replace the Barbarian in high-power games without drifting into tier 1 territory like the Druid."


Well, this class was never intended to be a Barbarian replacement or a Barbarian fix. It was meant to capture the concept of the "Druid Tank" from 3.5 edition, which I missed out on (I made mention of this in the comments section I believe). I only gave it Rage Power access when thinking of how to diversify the options of the class and it felt thematic.

Also, I did mentioned Tier on page 1:


Can you name any problems that come to your mind? Because when I make my classes I always make them with them with the plan of falling between Tier 1 and Tier 3; so far all my homebrew has been Tier 3 but I wouldn't mind pushing Tier 2 or 1.



...I might have given this class a standing ovation. The Barbarian is mostly based on the berserker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker), warriors who stoked themselves into a fury to become unstoppable on the battlefield, and, because of their animal skins, were sometimes said to transform into different animals, so there's a lot of cool fluff behind it. However, the introduction I was given for this class was "Break this class," which I inferred meant that you believed the class was balanced enough for play.

Well, as I mentioned, it was never meant to be compared to the Barbarian initially, I never even had the Barbarian in mind except when making the fluff.

And I apologize if I ever came across as believing my class was completely balanced. The whole reason I even made the thread (and I thought I mentioned it in the OP) was that I was in need of acid testing of the class because of a lack of forthcoming playtesting of the class. I wanted you guys to show me the biggest, glaring holes and exploits the Nagual had to offer so I could address them and decide if I believed that they were issues to be fixed in my class.

Thus far, that thread has proven successful since it did point out issues I had not noticed or considered.


-Snip-

I'll take those suggestions in to mind, though the one most likely to happen is going into the list given and removing any redundancies and anything I no longer feels fits the flavor of the class and is more there for "Oh, I put 1 rank in all Knowledge skills!" reasons.


I'll repeat a concept I bought up last time: If I made a frontline warrior with a unique, powerful, flexible core class feature, and then gave it all of the Fighter's bonus feats (even if there were extra restrictions on which feats it could take), that would be bad game design.

I think that's highly debatable.


Edit: You also see this concept brought up with the Druid (especially the 3.5 Druid). They get ninth level casting AND wildshape (which was powerful enough in 3.5 to make them tier 3 alone) AND an animal companion that is at many levels better than the Fighter. Mathematically better.

But the Druid was a Tier 1 class that could practically replace an entire party by itself with little investment or optimization. I don't think this class has ever been claimed to be anything but Tier 3 since I originally made it and any open loopholes to make it approach Tier 2 or 1 I believe I've nixed.


I'm not sure about the uncanny dodge stuff, that's normally something you expect from stealth orientated classes.

Ok, slight shooting in the foot moment here. No, I never envisioned this class to be in any way Barbarian 2.0 or anything like that, but when looking to add things to the class, I looked at the other frontline melee classes and felt Uncanny Dodge was a good dead level hole plugger.


I'm also not sure about the need for 2 bonus feats.

They're dead level hole pluggers, plain and simple.


Shifting Defence is actually 8 class features,

Shifting Defense was originally 5 or so class features that were condensed into just Shifting Defense to kill feature glut.


Why are they immune to Poison and Stunning, and at 5th ?

I moved them to 5th under advisement that I agreed with. The Poison immunity was gained too late originally to be useful and Poison immunity by itself is really "meh" as a class feature. I also styled this class off of the Warshaper prestige class (the only shapeshifting class that felt innately "tanky" to me) and they got immunity to Stunning and Crit hits at level 6.


The DR scaling with Con seems quite strong, especially since they can bump this with Seeming. Fast healing also keying off Con makes this even more likely to be an issue.

I wanted to reward the choice of tank forms for tanking. It didn't feel right that turning into a rat gave you the same level of durability from the class as turning into a bear.


Why do they get Energy Resistance ?

In retrospect, it might have been because of a "That's what a frontline melee fighter needs". I was trying to avoid the magic christmas tree effect being necessary as much as possible, I hate that.

I have seen some homebrew classes give a flat damage mitigation that applies to any form of hit point damage dealt but only the first X amount that round. I've been playing around with the idea of using that in place of DR and ER in my work from now on, what do you think?


Looking at all the defences here then this is a strong class even without Seeming. It is very defensive though which mitigates things a little.

You mean strong regardless of the Seeming form, right? Because practically everything only functions while using the Seeming class feature.


I see that you have toned down Seeming in a way which scales with level, which is good. I think it might also be an idea to delay access to things like Flight and Blindsense since these can break low level games.

I've tried to stunt it as best I can (especially flight. Things that have a good flight speed tend to have a terrible base land speed), but I don't want to outright punish through the floor choosing a form who's whole schtick is either flight or sensing at low levels. Without being able to cast spells or to carry/wield good ranged weapons, I don't see why early personal only flight is necessarily a bad thing.


Looking at this from a DMing point of view I'd still expect most encounters to be ineffective against this class, mainly due to the multi-layed defences. How would I challenge such a character ?

Well, it depends on how you define "ineffective" really. If you define it as meaning "how do I kill this guy", there's still ability damage/drain, level drain, raw number damage (force comes to mind, along with dessication and vile), battlefield removal, a combination of debuffs followed by an AMF, intelligent villains who research and record the Nagual's suite of forms and then exploit them, etc.

If you define it as "how do I make a compelling, fun experience with realistic chances for failure?", well, then you just throw at him/her problems that can't just be solved by turning into a bear and smashing it or turning into a rat and sneaking around it. But that's true of any class who excels within a specific gaming paradigm.

If you definite it as, "how do I make him expend 20% of his daily resources dealing with this encounter?", well, then you're right. I designed this class as being completely self sufficient and not really relying on items. I wanted this class to be the guy who functions fine buck nude in the woods for his entire life and ended up getting tangled into the events that made him a hero of yore.

[Novawurmson]

Things that the Nagual and Barbarian share:
Base attack bonus
Skills per level; Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Perception, Survival, and Swim as class skills
Good Fortitude save
Simple weapon proficiency and light armor
10 Rage powers
Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge
At least DR 5 by level 20

What the Barbarian has that the Nagual doesn't:
Rage
d12 HD
Acrobatics and Ride
Martial weapon and medium armor and shields (though the Nagual had martial weapons when I first saw it)
Fast movement (+10 feet per turn)
Trap sense
DR is /-
Must be non-lawful

What the Nagual has that the Barbarian doesn't:
Seeming
Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge: Geography, Profession , Stealth
Good Will save
Any armor made of animal skin
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
2 bonus feats
DR is Cold Iron scales with Con
Must be any neutral

From this comparison, with the exception of Seeming and what it entails, the Nagual could very easily be a more wilderness-themed Barbarian archetype, whether or not that's what you originally intended. If I made a 3/4 BAB class a scaling 1d6 points of damage per odd level, it would inevitably be compared to Sneak Attack and the Rogue. You gave a Full BAB class a Rage Power every even level and don't seem to want to admit to how close the classes are.

However, the core mechanic of the class is different, isn't it? Rage vs. Seeming? Let's see how they stack up:

Seeming gives you burrow, climb, swim, and fly speeds. Rage gives you no increased movement.
Seeming gives you a scaling natural armor increase all the way to +10. Rage lowers your AC.
Seeming allows a creature to grow or shrink up to four sizes. Rage does not.
Seeming gives you additional senses. Rage does not.
Seeming gives you bonuses to skills. Rage does not.
Seeming gives you natural attacks. Rage does not.
Seeming gives you immunity to fatigue and exhaustion. Until level 17, Rage fatigues you.
Seeming gives you immunity to poison and fortification up to 75%. Rage does not.
Seeming gives you energy resistance. Rage does not.
Seeming gives you typeless bonus to stats. Rage grants morale bonus.
Seeming lasts for hours per class level. Rage increases at a rate of 2 rounds per class level; this means that at level 20, a Nagual can enter into a seeming form 20 times per day for 20 hours each, while the Barbarian can rage for 42 rounds + Con, or about 7 minutes.
Rage grants a +8 to two stats at level 20. Seeming grants up to a +10.
Rage gives a bonus on Will saves. Seeming does not.
Rage can be entered into as a free action, while Seeming takes a standard action to initiate.

...and the list goes on. Now, the Barbarian can make up for some of these things (natural attacks, a climb speed)... by spending Rage Powers, while the Nargual gets them for free without spending any resources on them.

Do you see how similar these classes are, except for the fact that the Nargual outclasses the Barbarian at almost every turn?

[Tanuki Tales]

Before I reply to that, you do know that the vast majority of the Nagual's class features only function when they're in a Seeming form, yes?

All it's defenses and rage powers and other bells and whistles except it's feats, Wild Empathy, Trackless Step, Woodland Stride and Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge do not function when the Nagual is just standing there with a greatclub.

Because when you folks keep saying that the Nagual still equally competes with the Barbarian without the Seeming class feature, you leave me very lost.

Edit: I've cut 20 Morphic traits from the list and am still hung up over whether those based off the Superstition line really belong for this class.

[Novawurmson]

Well, the Nagual gets to be in Seeming form continuously from level 5, (level 4 with a feat) so for all intents and purposes, it's an always-on feature. It's like saying "Divine Metamagic Clerics don't have full BAB without Divine Power cast on them"; true, but in practice, they'll always have it. Even more so for the Nagual because Seeming can't (to my eyes) be dispelled or removed by an outside force.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, the Nagual gets to be in Seeming form continuously from level 5, (level 4 with a feat) so for all intents and purposes, it's an always-on feature. It's like saying "Divine Metamagic Clerics don't have full BAB without Divine Power cast on them"; true, but in practice, they'll always have it. Even more so for the Nagual because Seeming can't (to my eyes) be dispelled or removed by an outside force.

But that's not what any of you have been saying. You've been saying that, "Take away Seeming and the Nagual is competitive to a Barbarian", which isn't true at all. Without Seeming, the Nagual isn't competitive to a 3.5 CW Samurai.

If you meant "Before even going into what is granted by a specific Seeming form, the Nagual is competitive with the Barbarian", that's a completely different thing.

As for dispelling Seeming, if you can nail enough Will save penalties and then drop the AMF, there goes the Seeming. But to memory, there was nothing that negated Wildshape aside from AMFs either.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, I don't see much issues with that though. Barbarian was Tier 4 in 3.5 and pretty much stayed Tier 4 in Pathfinder.

Tier is not an entirely comprehensive picture of balance. See, you can easily make an ubercharger barb in 3.5 that deals obscene amounts of damage(in fact, they tend this way naturally). Balanced? Probably not in most parties, but merely having large damage numbers does not make you high tier, since tiers are determined primarily by on the fly flexibility.

Which, in a shifting-based class, you kind of have. So, tier wise, it's not going to be anywhere close to a barb.


As for dispelling Seeming, if you can nail enough Will save penalties and then drop the AMF, there goes the Seeming. But to memory, there was nothing that negated Wildshape aside from AMFs either.

"It can be dispelled" is not usually considered a good justification for higher power levels...but things that work anyway when most things don't are considered more valuable(orbwizards are a perfect example. d6/cl to a single target is not great damage. The reliability is what makes the char).

Lots of will save penalties(presumably non magical in nature) and an AMF seems...kind of ridiculous to expect.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tier is not an entirely comprehensive picture of balance. See, you can easily make an ubercharger barb in 3.5 that deals obscene amounts of damage(in fact, they tend this way naturally). Balanced? Probably not in most parties, but merely having large damage numbers does not make you high tier, since tiers are determined primarily by on the fly flexibility.

Which, in a shifting-based class, you kind of have. So, tier wise, it's not going to be anywhere close to a barb.

I never originally compared this class to the Barbarian, others did. I never balanced this class around the Barbarian or had it as a comparable in mind when it came to design. Yes, there are comparisons you can make between the two classes, but they came from you all, not me.




"It can be dispelled" is not usually considered a good justification for higher power levels...but things that work anyway when most things don't are considered more valuable(orbwizards are a perfect example. d6/cl to a single target is not great damage. The reliability is what makes the char).

Lots of will save penalties(presumably non magical in nature) and an AMF seems...kind of ridiculous to expect.

I never saw a need to justify the difficulty of undoing Seeming, that was one of it's selling points. Again, this is something others are bringing up and I'm addressing, not something I claimed or had in mind.

[Tyndmyr]

I never originally compared this class to the Barbarian, others did. I never balanced this class around the Barbarian or had it as a comparable in mind when it came to design. Yes, there are comparisons you can make between the two classes, but they came from you all, not me.

I actually consider it quite similar to whildshape ranger...but it's bad.


I never saw a need to justify the difficulty of undoing Seeming, that was one of it's selling points. Again, this is something others are bringing up and I'm addressing, not something I claimed or had in mind.

It's something that, even if it doesn't affect tier, most certainly does affect power level. The difficulty with which a classes tricks are negated can pose a problem.

As an aside, much of this will be at least partially remedied by moving to very explicit typing. Things like untyped bonuses exist in a strange area in the rules. They usually stack, and thus, are a frequent part of TO combos...merely typing your bonuses is a good general practice that will avoid a lot of odd interactions. In addition, typed bonuses may have various things that interact with them, depending on type. So, it'll fit better with the overall flow of the game in addition to being less exploitable.

[Tanuki Tales]

As an aside, much of this will be at least partially remedied by moving to very explicit typing. Things like untyped bonuses exist in a strange area in the rules. They usually stack, and thus, are a frequent part of TO combos...merely typing your bonuses is a good general practice that will avoid a lot of odd interactions. In addition, typed bonuses may have various things that interact with them, depending on type. So, it'll fit better with the overall flow of the game in addition to being less exploitable.

Crap, I forgot to add the racial and size tags. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Novawurmson]

But that's not what any of you have been saying. You've been saying that, "Take away Seeming and the Nagual is competitive to a Barbarian", which isn't true at all. Without Seeming, the Nagual isn't competitive to a 3.5 CW Samurai.

My point is that the Nagual and the Barbarian have very similar chassis EXCEPT for Rage/Seeming, and in that regard, Seeming is far and away the superior class feature. This is why I detailed the differences between Seeming and Rage.

I'll repeat: Aside from Seeming and Rage, the Nagual and Barbarian are almost identical, to the point where one could be an archetype of the other. However, Seeming is mostly objectively better than Rage, meaning that the Nagual gets pretty much the same as a Barbarian...and more.

Using logic:

Let "X" be class features shared by the Nagual and Barbarian.
Let "Y" be class features of the Barbarian not shared by the Nagual, sans rage
Let "Z" be class feature of the Nagual not shared by the Barbarian, sans seeming
Let "R" be Rage.
Let "S" be Seeming.

X+Y+R is the Barbarian
X+Z+S is the Nagual

X+Y=X+Z
S>R
Therefore
X+Y+R<X+Z+S

You see? I'm not saying the Nagual without Seeming is better than the Barbarian, I'm saying that both of them without their key class feature are about equal. However, the Nagual's key class feature is better than the Barbarian's key class feature, meaning that the Nagual is better than the Barbarian.

I think you might have been confused at my earlier statement of "So yes, when you take away Seeming, the Barbarian stacks up fairly well. When you add in Seeming... not so much." I did not mean "This class is as good as the Barbarian even without Seeming"; what I was trying to communicate was "When you compare the everything within the class besides what is granted with Seeming and Rage (the equivalent Barbarian ability), they're pretty much the same."

My suggestions have been that since S>R and Y=Z, take away some of X from the Nagual, the things that make the Barbarian and Nagual so similar; of their similarities, I find the Rage powers to be the most blatant example of a Barbarian-only ability given to the Nagual. You are explicitly taking something unique to a weaker class and giving it to a stronger one; if anything you should make unique Morphic Traits and then allow the Barbarian to take some of them via Rage Powers or an Archetype.

[Tanuki Tales]

-Snip-

Ok, that makes much more sense and I see what you're trying to convey now.


My suggestions have been that since S>R and Y=Z, take away some of X from the Nagual, the things that make the Barbarian and Nagual so similar; of their similarities, I find the Rage powers to be the most blatant example of a Barbarian-only ability given to the Nagual. You are explicitly taking something unique to a weaker class and giving it to a stronger one; if anything you should make unique Morphic Traits and then allow the Barbarian to take some of them via Rage Powers or an Archetype.

The issue becomes now, "What can I give the class thematically that won't skew it's power and balance further but will still allow customization and versatility". Rage powers were picked because they weren't overtly strong. But I guess I can go diving for nature based PrCs to see what I can see.