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Ziegander
2011-10-01, 04:13 PM
Knight of the White Lion

Designer's Notes

So, inspired by the Make a Tier 5 Caster class thread, I've decided to run with the idea of a "pet" caster. It's like a Druid without the Wild Shape, and with a drastically trimmed down spell list, and no spontaneous summons, and what not. I'm aiming more for Tier 4 here, but we'll see how it turns out. Please note that White Lion's Cub is intentionally weaker than a normal Animal Companion. Please let me know what you think of the mechanics!


Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|White Lion's Cub, Improved Flanking +1|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3||4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3||4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+3|+4|+1|+4||4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Improved Flanking +2|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|+4|+5|+2|+5||4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|+5|+5|+2|+5||4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6||4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6||4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—

10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Improved Flanking +3|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—

11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7||4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—

12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8||4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—

13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8||4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—

14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9||4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—

15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Improved Flanking +4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—

16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10||4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—

17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Improved Flanking +5|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4
[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Knight of the White Lion is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, but not with shields.

Spells
A Knight of the White Lion spontaneously casts divine spells, as a Sorcerer spontaneously casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the Knight of the White Lion spell list (given below). He knows every spell on his list of a level available to him to cast and his caster level is equal to his class level.

To cast a spell, the KotWL must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The saving throw DCs for these spells, if any, is 10 + the spell level + the KotWL's Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Knight of the White Lion can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

Knight of the White Lion Spell List

Orisons (0-level) - Cure Minor Wounds, DawnSC, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Know Direction, Light, Mending, NaturewatchSC

1st level - Aspect of the WolfSC, Beastland FerocitySC, BloodhoundSC, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, CamouflageSC, Cure Light Wounds, Enrage AnimalSC, HawkeyeSC, Hide from Animals, Magic Fang, Nature's FavorSC, Ram's MightSC, Smell of FearSC, Speak with Animals

2nd level - Align FangSC, Animal Messenger, Animal Trance, Bear's Endurance, Bite of the WereratSC, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, CountermoonSC, Eagle's Splendor, Embrace the WildSC, Fox's Cunning, Hunter's MercySC, Owl's Wisdom, Reduce Animal, Snake's SwiftnessSC, SwimSC, Summon Swarm (animals only)

3rd level - Bite of the WerewolfSC, Cure Moderate Wounds, Dominate Animal, Greater Magic Fang, Jagged ToothSC, Lesser Restoration, Lion's ChargeSC, Mass Align FangSC, SnakebiteSC, Snare, Thunderous RoarSC,

4th level - Bite of the WereboarSC, BlindsightSC, Essence of the RaptorSC, Jaws of the WolfSC, Mass Snake's SwiftnessSC, Repel Vermin, Superior Magic FangSC, Tortoise ShellSC

5th level - Animal Growth, Awaken (animals only), Bite of the WeretigerSC, Cure Serious Wounds, Dire HungerSC, Sheltered VitalitySC, Restoration

6th level - Bite of the WerebearSC, Cure Critical Wounds, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Fox's Cunning, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Vortex of TeethSC

7th level - Aura of VitalitySC, Freedom of Movement, Phantom StagSC

8th level - Animal Shapes, Heal, Phantom WolfSC

9th level - Nature's AvatarSC, Phantom BearSC, Shapechange (animal forms only)


White Lion's Cub
At 1st level a Knight of the White Lion may choose any animal with a CR of 1/2 or less that possesses no more than 1 HD as their Cub. A KotWL's Cub serves its master loyally and until death, trained in all of the tricks Handle Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm#) is capable of teaching an animal. A KotWL automatically succeeds on Handle Animal checks to command his Cub (he need not roll).

If the Cub has less than 1 HD, then it advances to 1 HD. Like its master, the Cub gets maximum hit points for its first HD (but not for any beyond the first). The Cub is proficient with any armor its master is. The Cub does not gain XP, but every time the Knight of the White Lion gains a level, his Cub advances by 1 HD. A KotWL and its Cub share an Empathic Link, as a Sorcerer does with its Familiar, but at any distance (even interplanar).

A Cub that is smaller than medium size will usually increase in size as it gains HD based on the table below, but its master may prevent this from happening (with no expenditure of effort or resources and at no harm to the Cub). When a Cub grows a size category from gaining HD it follows the normal rules for improving monsters found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases).

A Cub, unless operating under its master's orders, will not willingly move more than 60ft from its master. A Cub that has lost its master, unless operating under its master's orders, will seek out its master on its own accord until death.

A Knight of the White Lion may dismiss its Cub from service as a standard action, but must be able to see, hear, and touch the Cub to do so. If a KotWL's Cub dies the Knight loses a level (as if from being returned from the dead). Choosing a new Cub requires 1 week of seeking and training. When a KotWL chooses a new Cub he may choose any animal that has a CR no higher than 1/2 his class levels and with up to as many HD as his class level.

A Knight of the White Lion may cast any spell from the Knight of the White Lion Spell List with a range of touch on their Cub from any distance (even interplanar), even if he does not have line of effect or line of sight, provided the effect is harmless.

Cub Advancement by HD
{table=head]Starting Size|Size at 4 HD|Size at 8 HD|Size at 12 HD|Size at 16 HD|Size at 20 HD
Diminutive|Tiny|Tiny|Small|Small|Medium
Tiny|Tiny|Small|Small|Medium|Medium
Small|Small|Medium|Medium|Medium|Medium[/table]

Improved Flanking (Ex): A Knight of the White Lion is an expert in attacking foes with the advantage of an ally, so that when an ally flanks a creature with him they attack with increased morale.

At 1st level, this grants the KotWL and his flanking ally a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls. These bonuses increase by +1 at 5th level and every five levels thereafter.

DMs Looking for more class features?

Feel free to add any or all of the following class features to Knights of the White Lion used in your games. They add a bit of power and utility to the class without changing it in any large way. I didn't include them because I prefer the class in its pure form - animal companion + pet spells. Plus, with all these class features it just rips off the Ranger too much, in my opinion.

Track
At 2nd level, a Knight of the White Lion gains Track as a bonus feat. If his Cub has the Scent quality he may use it to assist his Survival checks.

Wild Empathy (Ex): At 2nd level, a Knight of the White Lion can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The KotWL rolls 1d20 and adds his class level and his Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.

The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the KotWL and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

A KotWL can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but he takes a -4 penalty on his check.

Armored Predator (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Knight of the White Lion does not suffer armor check penalties to Hide or Move Silently checks and neither does his Cub.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a Knight of the White Lion may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.

Speak to Animals (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a Knight of the White Lion can Speak with Animals, as the spell, at all times as an extraordinary ability.

Swift Tracker (Ex): Starting at 12th level, a Knight of the White Lion can move at his normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal -5 penalty. He takes only a -10 penalty (instead of the normal -20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Camouflage (Ex): A Knight of the White Lion of 14th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): A Knight of the White Lion of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a Knight of the White Lion of 18th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-01, 04:19 PM
I'm AFB, so I can't confirm this, but I'm fairly certain that every base class ever released by WotC that had full simple/martial weapon proficiency also had full BAB. I can't think of a single case where a class with 3/4 BAB had martial weapon proficiency.

Just some food for thought. I'll give a more concrete PEACH in six hours or so when I'm back from work. Looks interesting on the tin though, Ziegander.

Howler Dagger
2011-10-01, 04:28 PM
I'm AFB, so I can't confirm this, but I'm fairly certain that every base class ever released by WotC that had full simple/martial weapon proficiency also had full BAB. I can't think of a single case where a class with 3/4 BAB had martial weapon proficiency.


the sowrdsage has 3/4 BAB and MWP.

Merk
2011-10-01, 05:03 PM
It feels like it doesn't have enough (unique) class features to be a class, let alone a base class. I'm assuming it's WIP so that it'll eventually have stuff to differentiate it from Druid - Class Features + Improved Flanking.

Ziegander
2011-10-01, 05:21 PM
@NeoSeraphi: Yeah, Swordsage has 3/4 BAB and martial weapons as does the Factotum. I don't know if there's others or not. Looking forward to more PEACHy!

@Merk: Not sure what you're getting at. Would you say the same of a Cleric, a Fighter, a Sorcerer, or a Wizard? It's a caster with 9th level spells. It's not supposed to have lots of class features.


The Fighter

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Inspiration|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Cunning Knowledge, Cunning Insight, Weapon Aptitude, Bonus Feat|
2|4|1|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|
3|5|2|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Uncanny Dodge|
3|6|3|1|—|—|—|—

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat|
4|6|4|2|—|—|—|—

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Brains Over Brawn|
4|6|5|3|—|—|—|—

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|
5|6|6|4|1|—|—|—

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Cunning Breach|
5|6|6|5|2|—|—|—

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|
6|6|6|6|3|—|—|—

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
6|6|6|6|4|1|—|—

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus Feat|
7|6|6|6|5|2|—|—

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Combat Clarity|
7|6|6|6|6|3|—|—

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|
8|6|6|6|6|4|1|—

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Cunning Surge|
8|6|6|6|6|5|2|—

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|
9|6|6|6|6|6|3|—

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Combat Skill|
9|6|6|6|6|6|4|1

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus Feat|
10|6|6|6|6|6|5|2

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Insightful Parry|
10|6|6|6|6|6|6|3

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus Feat|
11|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Cunning Brilliance|
11|6|6|6|6|6|6|5

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus Feat|
12|6|6|6|6|6|6|6

[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Tumble.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with Light, Medium, and Heavy armors. A Fighter is proficient with all shields including Tower Shields.

Spells
A Fighter prepares a number of extraordinary spell-like abilities each day from the Fighter spell list in the same manner as a normal spellcaster prepares spells. Though they are spell-like abilities they function in all meaningful ways as extraordinary abilities and thus cannot be countered, dispelled, or suppressed. They may still be disrupted as normal. Unlike normal for spell-like abilities these extraordinary spell-like abilities require any material components that the spell would normally require, although they do not require verbal or somatic components. Instead if the spell requires verbal components, then the targets must be able to see & hear the Fighter to be effected. Likewise, if the spell requires somatic components, then the Fighter must himself be able to move (impeded but not completely prevented movement is considered a distraction and can disrupt the Fighter).

He knows every spell on his list of a level available to him to cast. He must have an Intelligence modifier of at least 10 + spell level and the saving throw DCs of spell-like abilities used this way is 10 + 1/2 Fighter level + Intelligence modifier.

Unlike a normal spellcaster a Fighter does not gain extra uses of his spell-like abilities per day for a high ability modifier.

SPELL LIST

0-LEVEL
Arcane Mark, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Mending, Read Magic, Touch of Fatigue

1ST
Alarm, Bane, Bless, Cause Fear, Command, Deathwatch, Detect Secret Doors, Endure Elements, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Hide from Undead, Identify, Jump, Magic Weapon, Remove Fear, True Strike

2ND
Aid, Align Weapon, Arcane Lock, Death Knell, Delay Poison, Detect Thoughts, Find Traps, Gentle Repose, Make Whole, Pyrotechnics, Scare, See Invisibility, Shield Other, Status, Undetectable Alignment

3RD
Arcane Sight, Dispel Magic, Flame Arrow, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Heroism, Keen Edge, Magic Vestment, Nondetection, Shout, Speak with Dead, Suggestion

4TH
Death Ward, Detect Scrying, Disrupting Weapon, Fear, Freedom of Movement, Minor Creation, Neutralize Poison, Stoneskin

5TH
Contingency, Fabricate, Greater Command, Greater Heroism, Greater Shout, Heroes' Feast, Slay Living, Spell Resistance, True Seeing

6TH
Eyebite, Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, Legend Lore, Major Creation, Mass Suggestion, Raise Dead



Inspiration
A Fighter is an insightful master of combat that relies on his wits, his experience, and his training to see him through the many battles he faces. He uses every tool available to him from sword to sorcery to skullduggery, but perhaps his most useful tool is his imagination. Using bits of inspiration here and there, a Fighter can hone his tactical edge to a razor and give himself the push he needs to take a fight home.

At the start of each day a Fighter has a number of Inspiration points available to him equal to the number given in the Inspiration column above. These points refresh any time the Fighter spends at least 5 minutes out of stressful situations. He uses these points to fuel many of his class features.

Bonus Feats
At 1st level and every even-numbered level thereafter a Fighter gains a bonus feat drawn from the list of Fighter Bonus Feats. He must meet the prerequisites of any feat gained in this way.

At 4th level and every even level thereafter a Fighter may choose to retrain one of his bonus feats, effectively losing the old feat in place of a new one. The old feat must not be a prerequisite to any of his other feats. He may only choose a single feat each time he retrains in this way and must choose to do so upon gaining the level.

Weapon Aptitude (Ex): With 1 hour of practice with a new weapon a Fighter may change the designated weapon for any feat he possesses that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Boomerang Daze) replacing one weapon for another in both the prerequisites and the feat's description. He must have the newly designated weapon in hand during his practice and he must be proficient with it to make this change.

A Fighter can adjust any number of feats with a single practice in this way, but he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. He cannot change the designated weapons in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisites for another feat he possesses. Feats adjusted in this way remain so designated for as long as he likes. He may re-adjust to a previously designated weapon as a swift action within 1 day per Fighter level of adjusting from that weapon, otherwise he must spend another hour in practice to adjust his feats.

For example, Scathwell, human Fighter 6, possesses the Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (warhammer), Weapon Focus (handaxe), Weapon Focus (longsword), Anvil of ThunderCW, Hammer's EdgeCW, and Two-Weapon Fighting feats. He finds a pair of enchanted shortswords and decides to practice with them for 1 hour to designate (shortsword) in place of any other weapons in the prerequisites and descriptions of a few of his feats, to the point that when he hits a foe with both shortswords in a round it must make two Fortitude saving throws (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + his Str bonus), one to avoid falling prone, the other to avoid being dazed for 1 round.

Cunning Insight (Ex): Before making an attack roll, damage roll, saving throw, or opposed roll you may spend 1 Inspiration point to gain a competence bonus to your roll equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Cunning Knowledge (Ex): Once per day, per skill, you may spend 1 Inspiration point to make a single skill check in a skill on your class skill list for which you are untrained, treating the roll as if you were trained with a number of ranks equal to 2 + 1/2 your Fighter level.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): 3rd level; as Barbarian.

Brains Over Brawn (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a Fighter adds his Intelligence modifier to all Strength and Dexterity based skill or ability checks in addition to the normal modifier.

Cunning Breach (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a Fighter may spend 1 Inspiration point as a free action and designate a creature. For 1 round the Fighter automatically overcomes any damage reduction, regeneration, or spell resistance possessed by the target.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): 9th level; as Barbarian.

Combat Clarity (Ex): Starting at 11th level, in combat encounters, from the start of the Fighter's first turn to the end of his last turn, he adds his Intelligence modifier to Reflex and Will saves.

Cunning Surge (Ex): Starting at 13th level, once per round, on his turn, a Fighter may spend 1 Inspiration Point to take an extra standard action.

Combat Skill (Ex): Starting at 15th level, a Fighter adds his Intelligence modifier to attack rolls when making attacks of opportunity and to all rolls made to initiate or oppose a Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, or Trip.

Insightful Parry (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a Fighter adds his Intelligence modifier as a dodge bonus to AC. Furthermore, anytime an enemy makes an attack against the Fighter and misses that enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from the Fighter, which the Fighter may take even with a ranged or thrown weapon, threatening out to his weapon's first range increment for the purposes of this attack only.

Cunning Brilliance (Ex): Starting at 19th level, a Fighter may spend 1 Inspiration point as a free action, even on another creature's turn, when he sees a creature use an extraordinary special attack or quality. For a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier, the Fighter may use that ability as though he possessed it.

GunbladeKnight
2011-10-01, 05:32 PM
@Merk: Not sure what you're getting at. Would you say the same of a Cleric, a Fighter, a Sorcerer, or a Wizard? It's a caster with 9th level spells. It's not supposed to have lots of class features.

Cleric has turning and domains, Sorcerer has spells known and spontaneous casting, and Wizard has a spell book. Warmage is spontaneous blaster. Favored Soul is spontaneous divine.

This is spontaneous Druid without wild shape, and an animal companion with fewer abilities.

Ziegander
2011-10-01, 06:01 PM
Cleric has turning and domains, Sorcerer has spells known and spontaneous casting, and Wizard has a spell book. Warmage is spontaneous blaster. Favored Soul is spontaneous divine.

And the Knight of the White Lion has as many or more class features than every one of the classes quoted above.


This is spontaneous Druid without wild shape, and an animal companion with fewer abilities.

Yes. It is. And the Druid is Tier 1. This is intended to be Tier 4. Does it make sense yet?

Demidos
2011-10-01, 06:24 PM
Not bad....I like it:smallsmile:
The dead levels _could_ use some abilities like woodland stride are resist nature's lure, and such stuff, if you want to keep it as low powered as posssible while cutting down on the dead levels. Personally, i'm always excited by getting a new ability, even if its really lame :smallbiggrin: But maybe thats just me :smallwink:

Ziegander
2011-10-01, 06:27 PM
The dead levels _could_ use some abilities like woodland stride are resist nature's lure, and such stuff, if you want to keep it as low powered as posssible while cutting down on the dead levels.

I wouldn't mind giving it minor abilities on the even levels where it's not gaining new spell levels or a higher improved flanking bonus. I'll look into it.

EDIT: Added a minor class feature at every even level not currently occupied.

Wyntonian
2011-10-01, 08:03 PM
I thinks this is a really interesting class, but I'm getting some Deja Vu..... Wasn't there a Ranger/Paladin theurge-type class by this same name a couple months back?

Ziegander
2011-10-01, 08:09 PM
I thinks this is a really interesting class, but I'm getting some Deja Vu..... Wasn't there a Ranger/Paladin theurge-type class by this same name a couple months back?

Was there? If so, I assure that I didn't intend to rip anyone off. Let's do a search.

EDIT: Looks like perhaps you're having deja vu about this very class, perhaps?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-01, 08:15 PM
You can't hotlink imges from tripod. Someone tried this in another thread.

Ziegander
2011-10-01, 08:34 PM
You can't hotlink imges from tripod. Someone tried this in another thread.

What is it against the rules or something?

wiimanclassic
2011-10-01, 08:50 PM
What is it against the rules or something?

It might be the part of it not showing and instead being an image saying its hosted by tripod.

Ziegander
2011-10-01, 09:03 PM
It might be the part of it not showing and instead being an image saying its hosted by tripod.

It showed on my computer. Weird. Anyway, I've taken it down. I'll look for something else.



EDIT: Added a minor class feature at every even level not currently occupied.

Y'know, I personally liked the simplistic nature of the class before it had any class features beyond the Cub and Improved Flanking.

Seerow
2011-10-01, 09:18 PM
You could just save the picture and reupload it on tinypic or photobucket or something.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-01, 10:39 PM
Yes, the swordsage and the factotum both have 3/4 BAB and martial weapon proficiency

Happily, I am proven wrong. I realize that I might have sounded a bit snide earlier, so I apologize for that, I really was in a hurry. (And with good reason, arrived only 5 minutes before I had to clock in)

So, a few more details.

1) Optional Hide in Plain Sight for a class that does not have Hide as a class skill. :smallconfused:

2) The spell list is powerful but flavorful. You have violation of the action economy (snake's swiftness), free Power Attack for your animal companion (bite of the werebear), healing and shapechange. It's a neatly trimmed down druid list that lacks deadly powerhouses like wall of thorns, venomfire and call lightning storm. I'd say this is weak and specific enough to warrant a drop to tier 4, especially with the wisely placed limit on shapechange.

3) Disappointed to once again, have to remind you of this Ziegander, but all divine spells have a divine focus component that the class itself must discuss.

4) How does reduce animal work with summon swarm? Can a swarm be targeted as an animal if it has the animal type? (If so, I predict hilarity)

5) Awakening your lion cub would be awesome. Suddenly your pet has Int. And Cha. Your pet can take ranks in Intimidate and use its Cha to make people shaken with a roar.

Seerow
2011-10-01, 11:20 PM
1) Not having the Spell Compendium on hand to check all of the spells: Do any of them increase your animal companion's size before Animal Growth at 5th level spells?

Because honestly, having a at best small animal with 1hd as your main feature at level 1 kind of sucks. At later levels you have plenty of buffs to keep it competitive, and even awesome, but at level 1, and probably your first few levels after that (til at least level 5, but maybe even as late as level 8-9) you're probably demonstrably weaker than a same level Fighter or Barbarian.


2) Is there any reason as a spontaneous caster you have the non-spontaneous caster progression?

3) Is the Knight intended to be buffing himself along with the pet? If so, shouldn't share spell be included? If not, there should probably be a note of that somewhere. (Sorry if it is there and I missed it)

4)
When a Cub grows a size category it gains a +4 size bonus to Strength, a +2 size category to Constitution, and a -2 size penalty to Dexterity in addition to the normal benefits and drawbacks. These bonuses and penalties stack.

This is loosely worded and has potential for abuse. For example, Animal Growth increases 1 size category and gives +8 str, +4 con. The part quoted means Animal Growth would instead be +12 str +6 con. I doubt you intended it to work that way with buffs, but if not that should be clarified as only applying to increases from HD.

Also, per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) Monsters gain stats automatically when gaining size from HD. For example moving from Small to Medium at level 8 is +4 Str, +2 con. This is part again stacks with your bonus of +4/+2, due to your clause of stacking with normal benefits and drawbacks of a size increase. If this is not intended, you should clarify that it replaces the normal benefit from gaining a size category via HD, rather than stacks with it.

5) Why do you prevent the scaling of animals past medium? At first I thought this was sensible, but then I noticed you can change out animals for anything with a CR up to 1/2 your level. That means by level 2 you can already have a medium creature (CR1 wolf with 2 hd). By level 4 you can have a large creature (CR2 Ape). You really need to either allow scaling to continue past medium, or disallow animals that are larger than medium.

Ziegander
2011-10-01, 11:30 PM
1) Optional Hide in Plain Sight for a class that does not have Hide as a class skill. :smallconfused:

I had thought I added Hide and Move Silently to the skill list... huh. Now, I kind of don't want to add it and I kind of want to rethink the optional class features... hmm.


3) Disappointed to once again, have to remind you of this Ziegander, but all divine spells have a divine focus component that the class itself must discuss.

Bah! A Druid uses a sprig of mistletoe or holly; it seems like a purely flavor thing for them. Harrumph. I wish I could make the Cub itself the Divine Focus. As long as none of the buffs require a Divine Focus I could... that's a lot of spells to look through though without the book in front of me. What do you suggest?


4) How does reduce animal work with summon swarm? Can a swarm be targeted as an animal if it has the animal type? (If so, I predict hilarity)

I guess it works... but I'm not sure how. I want to say I assume it would change absolutely nothing about the swarms statistics other than that each individual member would be one size category smaller.

@Seerow

Because honestly, having a at best small animal with 1hd as your main feature at level 1 kind of sucks. At later levels you have plenty of buffs to keep it competitive, and even awesome, but at level 1, and probably your first few levels after that (til at least level 5, but maybe even as late as level 8-9) you're probably demonstrably weaker than a same level Fighter or Barbarian.

I'd say that it's easily comparable to a Fighter or Barbarian of the same level. At first level it's got "I'm Now a Wolf" 2/day which makes it as good or arguably better than the Fighter for its duration, but it can also trade this in for "My Cub is a Barbarian" 2/day. Of course, it also has plenty of other things to use its spell slots for if need be, it casts spontaneously as situations arise, and it has an animal companion, which is more than the Fighter or Barbarian can say for themselves.


2) Is there any reason as a spontaneous caster you have the non-spontaneous caster progression?

Just a slight power trim that's all.


3) Is the Knight intended to be buffing himself along with the pet? If so, shouldn't share spell be included? If not, there should probably be a note of that somewhere. (Sorry if it is there and I missed it)

The Knight can buff himself along with his pet, but the class is more focused on buffing the pet. Share spells is really, really abusive, and was thus left off as a conscious effort.


This is loosely worded and has potential for abuse. For example, Animal Growth increases 1 size category and gives +8 str, +4 con. The part quoted means Animal Growth would instead be +12 str +6 con. I doubt you intended it to work that way with buffs, but if not that should be clarified as only applying to increases from HD.

Also, per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) Monsters gain stats automatically when gaining size from HD. For example moving from Small to Medium at level 8 is +4 Str, +2 con. This is part again stacks with your bonus of +4/+2, due to your clause of stacking with normal benefits and drawbacks of a size increase. If this is not intended, you should clarify that it replaces the normal benefit from gaining a size category via HD, rather than stacks with it.

Fixed this issue, thank you very much for bringing up these points.


5) Why do you prevent the scaling of animals past medium? At first I thought this was sensible, but then I noticed you can change out animals for anything with a CR up to 1/2 your level. That means by level 2 you can already have a medium creature (CR1 wolf with 2 hd). By level 4 you can have a large creature (CR2 Ape). You really need to either allow scaling to continue past medium, or disallow animals that are larger than medium.

For very little mechanical reason. It's mostly to prevent Gargantuan Toad companions in epic levels and other various sundries. If you want to grab a Wolf at 2nd level, or an Elephant at 14th level, by all means go for it.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-01, 11:59 PM
I had thought I added Hide and Move Silently to the skill list... huh. Now, I kind of don't want to add it and I kind of want to rethink the optional class features... hmm.


Makes sense. At level 18, perhaps the ability to charge the same target as your cub at the same time, (using the same full round action) and automatically flanking, despite your actual positioning?



Bah! A Druid uses a sprig of mistletoe or holly; it seems like a purely flavor thing for them. Harrumph. I wish I could make the Cub itself the Divine Focus. As long as none of the buffs require a Divine Focus I could... that's a lot of spells to look through though without the book in front of me. What do you suggest?


It's not purely flavor. It's a very important mechanic that replaces somatic components. In exchange for not having Arcane Spell Failure in your full plate, you carry around a holy symbol that, if lost, sundered, disintegrated or disarmed, completely negates your spellcasting ability.

I don't think making the cub itself a divine focus is a good idea. Then, while the animal is scouting or fighting, you're completely unable to cast any spells unless you're right next to it.

I'd say a small badge that has a white lion emblazoned on it.

Seerow
2011-10-02, 12:12 AM
For very little mechanical reason. It's mostly to prevent Gargantuan Toad companions in epic levels and other various sundries. If you want to grab a Wolf at 2nd level, or an Elephant at 14th level, by all means go for it.


In that case, seriously just allow the Gargantuan toad. That sort of thing can make the class fun. Instead, if you want to be competent you're stuck constantly chasing the biggest baddest animal you are capable of controlling. On a similar note, you may want to consider stat boosts a la druid animal companions. Again to boost up weaker companions to be similar in power to the newer shinier companions. Your pet is a huge central part of this class, and if you're switching it out every 2 levels for a bigger one, you're giving up a lot of attachment to that. Make keeping your tiny pet cat or toad from level 1 all the way to level 20 viable when compared to picking up a elephant, or an ape, or a bear.

Alternatively to straight up stat boosts, maybe allow templates on lower CR creatures. Being able to apply things like warbeast, or the dire template, can help make up some lost ground. (As an aside: If you don't do this, explicitly ban all templates altogether. Because people will try to use them, and if you don't account for them they do wonky things to power level)

Ziegander
2011-10-02, 12:39 AM
It's not purely flavor. It's a very important mechanic that replaces somatic components. In exchange for not having Arcane Spell Failure in your full plate, you carry around a holy symbol that, if lost, sundered, disintegrated or disarmed, completely negates your spellcasting ability.

Have I completely missed something for 10 years or so, or are you making this up? As far as I am aware, DF definitely does not replace somatic components and losing it has no bearing on spells you cast as long as they don't have the DF component (which is are most spells).


I don't think making the cub itself a divine focus is a good idea. Then, while the animal is scouting or fighting, you're completely unable to cast any spells unless you're right next to it.

You'd be able to cast any spells that didn't have a DF component... right? I really hope I haven't lost my mind.


Make keeping your tiny pet cat or toad from level 1 all the way to level 20 viable when compared to picking up a elephant, or an ape, or a bear.

I do see your point, and I would like to make that tiny cat you chose at 1st level as important to the character mechanically as it is storywise I just have to think of a way to do it that works for me. While I don't think a character that keeps their cat or toad is incompetent, they would be strictly better off choosing a Lion or a dinosaur when they got the chance. I'd like to even that up somewhat. I'll think on it.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-02, 01:15 AM
Have I completely missed something for 10 years or so, or are you making this up? As far as I am aware, DF definitely does not replace somatic components and losing it has no bearing on spells you cast as long as they don't have the DF component (which is are most spells).


I meant "essentially" speaking. The meta-reason that divine classes don't have somatic spell failure chance from armor is because they have a divine focus for their spells instead. So it essentially "replaces" the somatic components for those spells that require a divine focus.



You'd be able to cast any spells that didn't have a DF component... right? I really hope I haven't lost my mind.


You are correct, now that I'm reading over it. The holy symbol replaces Focus components, not somatic ones. Here is a list of spells that uses the Divine Focus from your spell list, so that you know the importance of the symbol itself.

light, hide from animals, magic fang, aspect of the wolf, beastland ferocity, nature's favor, bear's endurance, bull's strength, owl's wisdom, fox's cunning, eagle's splendor, summon swarm, snake's swiftness, align fang, greater magic fang, snare, mass align fang, thunderous roar, repel vermin, mass snake's swiftness, tortoise shell, awaken, sheltered vitality, mass bear's endurance, mass bull's strength, mass fox's cunning, mass eagle's splendor, mass owl's wisdom, freedom of movement, phantom wolf, phantom bear, animal shapes and nature's avatar.

That's 33 spells, out of the 83 on your spell list, almost half. Divine focuses are not insignificant.

Amechra
2011-10-02, 02:17 AM
The Cub is your focus.

Bada bing, bada boom.

Wyntonian
2011-10-02, 02:20 PM
Found the PrC I was thinking of. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7599912&postcount=9)

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-10, 06:47 AM
I have but two suggestions, one of which has already been addressed: the size thing. A pet should be gainable at level 1 and usable all through the game. You could always implement an "evolution" system of sorts, but frankly, just adding more size options is your best bet, IMHO.

The only other thing I'd suggest is this: more than one pet! Maybe a second one at level 10 and a third at level 20 or something, but seriously, this is the big reason I use pet classes in MMOs or such (this certainly reads like an MMO pet class, anyways) is just to be able to have more pets at once.

This is a very good idea for a class, I like what you have so far a lot. As a gestalt GM, I could be evil to my PCs with this as a secondary or tertiary gestalt class on an evil NPC.