PDA

View Full Version : Killing Jedi: For Fun and Profit - by Scar



The Reverend
2011-10-02, 07:21 AM
The is partially a repost of material from the Things i may not do to make the DM cry thread and a new discussion for killing Jedi and other jedi style characters by non-super powered characters.

My example is my Jedi killer, not bounty hunter he didn't want to pay the membership dues, Scar. Scar was a trandoshian soldier from Star Wars D20, and while it wasn't his only source of income hunting down Jedi Scum was something he was spectacularly good at. He of course did it thru traps and incredibly devious technologies


Repulsor lift mounted automatic mortar that fires a mix of stun, concussive, cryo, stun gas, and gluey monofiliment. I pointe out the metal storm system can fire a million rounds a minute.

Large caliber rounds filled with gluey monofiliment designed to be split open by lightsabers also rounds of the same design filled with chemicals that would eat metal i.e. to disable the lightsabers

You know that missile on Boba's arm? 10 In boxes on each shoulder, two pistols with 20 more each.

dozens of cheap repulsor droids spraying gases while another dozen with tasers another dozen with glue coated grasping arms a few more spraying buckyballs attacking together in coordinated waves.

During chases I had a back mounted pistol sized gun that let loose a steady stream of monofilimant with pecks of glue at random sprayed randomly along the walls ceiling and floors of my escape root to discourage pursuit.

Stun pad on my forehead for head butting.

Gauntlets with hidden monofilaments for cutting shackles

repulsor belt, rocket boots, and jet pack. Redundancy.

captured light saber just for throwing at big scenic space windows, cutting support pylons and cables and instantly disabling all kinds of flying stuff.

Battlesuit
Entire suit covered in a thin film of material that pops if grabbed, two layers on the boots.
Left arm bucky ball sprayer, right arm thermite sprayer.
Left hand tower shield held up by repulsors, inside view screen outside visual sensors and a magnashield. Right hand heavy gatling blaster on a repulsor lift.




more coming later

heres more

The real trick to hunting jedi is harraying them. You have to keep on them round after round, always pressing them never let up. If they do recover their momentum make sure you have at least 3 routes of retreat each leading to another prepared battle area, make sure to do this three deep. You must constantly wear down his defenses, his mental strength, and allow hime to use his force power liberaly in the opening rounds. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER let a jedi near you. Fights should be down at least 50 meters, also if you can find a way make sure to block the jedi voice in some way to keep from getting dominated. Some are telepathic so it won't work all the time.

the key thing to know about most Jedi and Sith is that they Think with Their Force D&*Ks. They often turn to their Force powers before turning to mundane answers.

the first rule turned around, make sure the Jedi have somewher you can harry them to. A cornered prey fights much harder than one that believes it has options and places to run. Fill these options with more traps, obvious and not. That ventilation duct? Cut a power cable so it grounded on the metal duct when the jedi climbs in. Preweaken floors, supports, and cables. Jedi swinging on that Vine across the bottomless pit to get away from you? thats ok because you flew up there yester day and pulled 3 of the four retaining screws out or maybe sawed thru the vine halfway.

If the target is just too powerfull you have to wait for him to board a space ship. Killing jedi in space from long distances is a standard operational procedure dating back thousands of years. Note with some jedi this is still an issue as they are so powerful they can damage your ship with their force powers.

Autolykos
2011-10-02, 12:53 PM
Taking individuals with superpowers by surprise tends to work rather well. There's this old joke from Shadowrun:
"Have you ever seen an Immortal Elf?" - "Not in my crosshairs."
Most aren't on edge all of the time and have to sleep eventually.

Massive overkill is also something to consider. Has the problem that you'll never find the body (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverFoundTheBody), though.

Overwhelming their defenses (e.g. with attack spamming) and breaking the action economy might also work. If they can parry n attacks per round, use n+1.

If you want to use traps, prefer the quick ones so they have less time to react/escape.

And finally, remember that shooting is not too good for your enemies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList).

GoatToucher
2011-10-02, 02:33 PM
The problem with being a preptime fighter is that, eventually, your opponents will prepare for YOU.

Sith_Happens
2011-10-02, 03:11 PM
Obvious statement: You, sir, are awesome.

Clarification: While the outlined tactics are proposed for use against Jedi, they would in fact work equally well against any and all meatbags not similarly prepared.

Doorhandle
2011-10-02, 04:24 PM
The problem with being a preptime fighter is that, eventually, your opponents will prepare for YOU.

Mah Boy! If this guys has half the preparation of batman, he will find that prep time will not in fact cause any problems.

Besides, if he moves from system to system, his quarry will not quite be prepared enough to accommodate, as I imagine that news dosen't travel any faster than a spaceship in star wars.

TheCountAlucard
2011-10-02, 04:51 PM
Besides, if he moves from system to system, his quarry will not quite be prepared enough to accommodate, as I imagine that news dosen't travel any faster than a spaceship in star wars.To the contrary, the opposite is true - are you familiar with the HoloNet?

Dodging the really obvious Hitchhiker reference.

jindra34
2011-10-02, 04:54 PM
To the contrary, the opposite is true - are you familiar with the HoloNet?


Guess the plan then would be to make sure no one who might tell jedi (or whatever group your targeting) survives witnessing your tactics.

Doorhandle
2011-10-02, 04:55 PM
Good point.

Hmmm... Maybe wear loads of costumes?

Kaun
2011-10-02, 05:01 PM
@ Op.
Killing Jedi: For Fun and Profit - by Scar

I'm guessing its a lot more about fun then about profit looking at that required gear list.

GoatToucher
2011-10-02, 05:32 PM
Let us also not forget the Jedi's precognative abilities.

This would largely depend on the era. If there are few Jedi, then this guy would have a much higher survival rate. If the Jedi are numerous, organized, and laden with resources, then this guy is gonna have a colon full of space ninja/wizard sooner rather than later.

Just remember, the song don't go "I fought the law and then walked away scott free because I am so awesome."

Vknight
2011-10-02, 05:42 PM
This is Vknights advice. Scar's methods work but there costly much more costly then these. Here to help further your jedi hunting career path and eventual attack.

Any Jedi or Sith you can find in space, such as a space station, shuttle, or ship vent into space. Force users cannot survive the vacuum without the proper equipment. Also load those sections with explosives and detectors of vitals so you can be aware of there location. Ventilation units are to be made for special fitted droids so only Dug's and other extremely small races may fit and even then have no place to maneuver. (This is a last resort as it costs plenty of credits to do this)

Sniper Rifle and trained users of them all firing together. No Jedi can successfully be prepared for such an event and even if they are then the war of attrition will get to them.

Rockets, missiles at sleeping Jedi because when there asleep you don't have to worry about them protecting themselves.

Catch the Jedi or Sith well asleep.

Prepare ahead of time. If you can change the battlefield to your advantage then do so. Traps slowly chip away at them.

Never use weapons that are low output. Every weapon you use should either be armor piercing or rapid fire preferably both.

Backup weapons and proper armor.

Mono-filament woven clothing, armor, shield, and vibro-weapon using 1 of the listed materials. Cortosis, Mandalorian Armor, Neuranium, Phrik, Songsteel, and Ultrachrome.

A pure Cortosis weapon shorts out lightsabers.... Carry a dagger of it or make bullets from it. One shot and the jedi has to rely on there force talents. Also that gluey mono-filament better be made of one of these materials or the lightsaber will burn it away.

Traps... Seriously. Pits, spikes, mines, falling logs, electrified floors, chandeliers on a quick release, force eating insects(they do exist or there reptiles), repulsion units installed in various places, walls loaded with explosives. Use everything to your advantage.

Flamethrowers can only be stopped with the force so you keep the jedi back if he gets close and he can only protect himself so long.

Cheap disposable droids made by yourself from spare parts, reprogram droids you find etc. A cheap labor force to set your traps and/or to act as a last line of defense. Load these droids with explosives to hurt the jedi if they get in close. This is costly but makes up for it as the droids didn't cost much of anything.

Any weapon that fires actual projectiles is less effective especially against a jedi. The exception is of course mortars. Rockets, grenades, and missiles will prove ineffective and possibly dangerous

Needles, knives, blades covered in poisons, drugs etc. They can slow the jedi down if they get close. It can also be applied to your traps and as weapons to the droids.

Never interact purposefully with the Jedi before meeting them. They can sense your emotional intent towards them.

Doorhandle
2011-10-03, 03:32 AM
Also that gluey mono-filament better be made of one of these materials or the light-saber will burn it away.



Not a problem. It will burn through SOME of the filament, but not all of it, and the rest will proceed to hit the bastard in the face.

Also, maybe attempt shotgun usage? He can't block all of it with his light-saber, although he could probably use the force if he wanted. i'd suggets disguising it but the jedi could just sense your intent.

And remember, there is always the possibly of running the Jedi over with his own car, or someone Else's. Have a friend distract to you can catch him unawares, and maybe use bigger objects like trucks, tanks, or spaceships.



If The Jedi is at the level were he can block a spaceship, you probably already have the Very Expensive ArmourTM needed to fight the guy properly.

Vknight
2011-10-03, 04:24 AM
Strands of gluey substances still won't do much and again weapons that fire slugs are not common place. There antiques which means making the ammo yourself or paying huge amounts of money to have it made. Again its not cost productive especially when most of it will be wasted. The glue does nothing, the bullets cost huge amounts before getting them specially modified and the gun itself will cost as much as a mortar launcher. The 2common projectile weapons are explosives in the form of missiles and tranquilizer darts(Which jedi can resist)

Now with the car idea you
1) better be prepared for if the jedi notices you
2) pack it with explosives otherwise the jedi will live
3) remember the jedi can duck underneath your hover vehicle because ones with land travel are either walkers or based on treads.
4) make sure that distraction really is occupying them
5) that ramming them is not a primary plan but a backup
6) If you spent money on a car why not put it to better use in getting a gunship of some sort. Or a space fighter.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-03, 05:57 AM
Area of effect weapons, like explosives, sound like a good way to bag a Jedi. No amount of prescience is going to help you if you can't get out of the blast radius.
If you insist on single target weapons, for gods sake, put down that slow ass blaster with bolts a human could dodge and get some chemical propellent based weaponry, either in the anti material sniper rifle, it's hard to dodge something that is moving faster then the sound to hear it coming, or something bullet storm line, such turning a Jedi into a nice meat colonder with a mini-gun. Can't outsmart bullet.
Jedi have their tricks, just don't be weak willed. If you can resist spam on the HoloNet, you probably can resist being told those are not the droids you are looking for.
Also, Jedi are melee based for the most part. Stay at range and you will be much safer. See if you can pick up some armour woven from lightsabre resistant material
The psychological effect alone if they go for a slice and find you unsliced is priceless. Still, in general, stay out of slicing range.

The Reverend
2011-10-03, 06:28 AM
Cost wasn't really an issue when my character Scar went Jedi hunting and most of his tools were specialty versions of or used of the shelf materials. I was lucky, our usual boss had access to an old republic automated manufacturing center. So as long as he had the are materials it was all equally expensive to build. And our costs were underwritten by the bounty holders as we would take a smaller bounty but required them to pay expenses. All estimated up front and itemized. We didn't take any pay upfront .

the two most expensive pieces of equipment were his battle armor and his rotating gattling laser mounted on a repulsor lift. The battle armor was a savant droid more than armor really. I had every sensor you could think of stuck on it: audio, magnetic, whole electromagnetic spectrum, electrical, hyperspacial, and anything else that wasn't incredibly expensive. All this info was tied together in an information processing/presentation computer with a heuristic processor and battle assist AI. All shielded from em pulse or ion guns and it could not be hacked without great personal risk. I had 360 vision and it was basically predator's vision cranked up to 11. I had to secure the programming and dataprocessing skills from a team of the top experts in a half dozen fields. Took half a year to put together, 250k credits, 8months to train in it, and i blew 2 feats on proficiencies. It was my signature item, each character got 1 in the campaign at helped put me on a more equalish footing when fighting force users. On the plus side I could make more for a fraction of the development cost.

With the gattling laser I used the n+1 school of overcoming lightsabers blocking incoming fire. Lasers travel magnitudes faster than a blaster bolt, but do a lot less damage. I over came that by using the best tech and putting it on a rotating barrel, I think it had 30 emitters, 15 on the outside ring 10 on the inside, and 5 in the center, so two barrels were always firing.




Aaah memories. At epic level he could compete with force users pretty well. He was a tad overpowered maybe. I say this because another dm ran a RIFTS campaign and said bring in a character from another game world, he looked at Scar and said perfect,ended up having more attacks than our juicers. He liked to ride on the glitter boys shoulder between fights.

Reverent-One
2011-10-03, 12:32 PM
If you insist on single target weapons, for gods sake, put down that slow ass blaster with bolts a human could dodge and get some chemical propellent based weaponry, either in the anti material sniper rifle, it's hard to dodge something that is moving faster then the sound to hear it coming, or something bullet storm line, such turning a Jedi into a nice meat colonder with a mini-gun. Can't outsmart bullet.

They might not be able to outsmart a bullet, but unlike a blaster, they can stop a bullet with simple TK, and potentially throw it back at you.

The Reverend
2011-10-03, 03:01 PM
That's why use both, and the bullets explode when they fall below a certain velocity.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-03, 04:35 PM
They might not be able to outsmart a bullet, but unlike a blaster, they can stop a bullet with simple TK, and potentially throw it back at you.
They can deflect blasters with lightsabres, so it's a wash.
The Reverend has the right idea.

Reverent-One
2011-10-03, 05:06 PM
Blaster bolts they have to block individually, bullets they could toss aside en mass with just a wave of their hand. As for Reverend's idea, if you do that, you better hope they don't stop the exploding bullets while they're still near you then.

Kaun
2011-10-03, 05:13 PM
Blaster bolts they have to block individually, bullets they could toss aside en mass with just a wave of their hand. As for Reverend's idea, if you do that, you better hope they don't stop the exploding bullets while they're still near you then.

I think he basses his strat on surprise and death by numbers, if you try and kill the Jedi in enough ways at the same time you are banking on the theory that the jedi will screw up at least once and something will hit home.

Because while they are powerful they aren't perfect.

Reverent-One
2011-10-03, 05:15 PM
I think he basses his strat on surprise and death by numbers, if you try and kill the Jedi in enough ways at the same time you are banking on the theory that the jedi will screw up at least once and something will hit home.

Because while they are powerful they aren't perfect.

Agreed, but if that's the idea, why not just use blasters? If you can surprise them and hit them with a bullet, you should be able to do that with a blaster bolt.

Kaun
2011-10-03, 05:36 PM
Its all about numbers,

He uses both blasters and bullets simultaneously so the Jedi has to deal with multiple different attack at the same time. This puts the Jedi in a more stressful situation in the hope that this stress causes cracks that can be exploited.

The Reverend
2011-10-03, 05:43 PM
JUST WITH A BLATER!!!!! HEAVENS NO.

With Jedi you have to bank on several things, even if you surprise them they might see it coming so you must overwhelm them. For example they never expected me to put homing assassin droids in stuffed animals. They thought the battle droid hidden in the broom closet was my secondary diversion and my gattling fletchete cannon their primary attacker. Stupid jedi, Didn't PRECOG FLYING PINK FLUFFY DEATH DID THEY!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH.

Our campaign took place starting just before the First Death STars desruction and he hit lvl 14 when the Emperor was killed. We were equal opprotunity killers, Sith, Jedi, other force users, Cyborg Criminal Kingpins, rescuing high priority targets behind enemy lines, strike team for hire, enforcing our PC crime lord

Reverent-One
2011-10-03, 06:35 PM
Its all about numbers,

He uses both blasters and bullets simultaneously so the Jedi has to deal with multiple different attack at the same time. This puts the Jedi in a more stressful situation in the hope that this stress causes cracks that can be exploited.

You can have multiple attacks at the same time just by having more blasters as well. I'm not saying you can't use bullets as well, but I don't see them giving an additional advantage. I'd just rather throw a wall of blaster fire at them then a wall of bullets.


JUST WITH A BLATER!!!!! HEAVENS NO.

With Jedi you have to bank on several things, even if you surprise them they might see it coming so you must overwhelm them. For example they never expected me to put homing assassin droids in stuffed animals. They thought the battle droid hidden in the broom closet was my secondary diversion and my gattling fletchete cannon their primary attacker. Stupid jedi, Didn't PRECOG FLYING PINK FLUFFY DEATH DID THEY!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH.

And these ideas are all better and more inventive than simply replacing a few bolts of energy with some metal slugs.

Kaun
2011-10-03, 06:51 PM
It's not about one or the other, its about doing them all ... at once... in the highest volume possible. :belkar:

Its all about trying to force an error on the Jedi's behalf.

Excuse the pun

Reverent-One
2011-10-03, 07:00 PM
It's not about one or the other, its about doing them all ... at once... in the highest volume possible. :belkar:

Its all about trying to force an error on the Jedi's behalf.

Excuse the pun

There's not some maximum number of blasters you can have firing at a Jedi at once. If you have some guns shooting bullets, it's because you replaced some guns firing blaster bolts. A trade off that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't add much to the equation either.

TheThan
2011-10-03, 07:24 PM
As order 66 proves, concentrated fire combined with the element of surprise works well on Jedi. A Jedi, no matter how powerful (ugh don’t get me going on that), can still only defend himself from so many angles.
Probably the easiest way of assassinating a Jedi is to use a Ysalamir (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysalamir) and a blaster. If they can’t detect you’re presence then they can’t sense you’re attack coming. A sniper rifle also works well in this case. Trying to sneak up on one with one of these doesn’t work, particularly in a crowded area, he’ll notice people “disappearing” from his senses and “reappearing” when they walk out of the critter’s range. Hmm an Ysalarmir attached to a heavy weapon like a Eweb might work pretty well. What i'd do is set up a trap where the jedi walks into a Ysalarmir's field, then snipe with a (solid projectile) sniper rifle. they can't do anything about it.

Another good idea is a fletchet mortar, cover a large area with deadly needle like projectiles, he’ll block some of them but the rest should either kill him outright or injure him enough to slow him down. Most other forms of projectiles, rockets, thermal detonators etc can be “bounced back” with a solid force push, so these weapons, are only moderately effective without going the overkill route and flooding an area with simultaneous launches.
However the problem with this is that there have been instances where Jedi could actually control individual bits of sand, and whirl around clouds of sand ala naruto’s Gaara (although not as lethally). So depending on the Jedi, this might not be just a good idea.

jindra34
2011-10-03, 07:31 PM
I wonder how Jedi would react to Kinetic Kill type weaponry (heavy slugs moving at at high fractions of the speed of light designed to either pierce the target or powerfully explode due to kinetic energy being converted to thermal on slowdown)?

The Reverend
2011-10-03, 07:44 PM
Yeah I dont ever recall using an actual "slug thrower". Rail guns, gauss cannon, mortars, rockets, torpedoes, flamethrowers, grenades, thermal detonators, a satchel charge dropped into a sewer behind a wall of rubble improvising the largest shotgun I ever saw, a spaceship refueling nozzle spewing liquid metal death, a bowcaster, and a conveniently placed gungan. Never a true slug thrower though.

IN our third fight I did catch a tuskan raiders rifle round in the jaw. DM had homebrew rules for what happened to bones when a critical hit happened with slug throwers and other projectiles. That's why my character was called ScaR, messed up face. -1Cha intimidate +5.

I gotta admit as a straight up tool a lightsaber is very very useful. Every one of my anubis-headed battle droids had an economy model lightsaber in their tool belt.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-03, 08:06 PM
C'mon, no one here's played KotOR II?

Might be some minor spoilers here, and it's kinda long, so I'm spoiling it:


Exile: "What weapons would you suggest?"

HK-47: "Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, since many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."

HK-47: "Addendum: Gas attacks are effective if you can take the Jedi by surprise - inhalation is less effective than ones that work on skin contact, as some Jedi seem able to hold their breath for long periods of time."

HK-47: "Cautionary: Still, don't rely on it, since Jedi can fight off the effects, it just distracts them, leaving them open to another avenue of attack."

Exile: "Any defenses you would suggest?"

HK-47: "Recitation: Do not forget to activate any energy shields you possess. Lightsabers, while powerful, have trouble penetrating most military issue energy shields - provided they are energy shields and not those crude Mandalorian melee shields."

Exile: "What about countering Force powers?"

HK-47: "Answer: Countering their other powers is more difficult."

HK-47: "Confession: I do not fully understand their other abilities, but I do know that many of them require that the Jedi know that you are there, and can see you. Thus, sniping and using cover are always advantageous."

Exile: "Anything else?"

HK-47: "Evaluation: A method that Revan used frequently was to attack a Jedi incorrectly. This method only works if the Jedi is adhering to the self-destructive path of pacifism and sacrifice."

Exile: "What do you mean?"

HK-47: "Answer: Kill their allies, or place them in jeopardy. Many Jedi will leave themselves exposed in order to protect another. That is why there is many less Jedi than there were a decade ago.

Exile: "You seem to have thought this through."

HK-47: "Cautionary: Oh, no, master. In fact, that is the worst thing you can do."

HK-47: "Explanation: Statistically, overplanning the assassination of a Jedi seems to backfire."

HK-47: "Extrapolation: There are many theorists who claim Jedi can see the future, and I do not know if that is true, but it seems impulsive acts are more common to succeed than planned incidents. Jedi, like sand-kivers, seem to sense trouble a few seconds before it happens. They are tricky little pests."

Exile: "Were you the only one killing Jedi?"

HK-47: "Answer: No, master. In addition to traps, mines, and orbital bombardments, Revan and the Sith often employed meatbag assassins for some Jedi, skilled in the same techniques I was trained in. Strangely enough, Revan believed that meatbags that did not use or believe in the Force were especially important, since in many respects, they were more difficult for Jedi to detect. Revan had many of them trained to "hide their minds," as it were. Again, once these techniques were learned, the percentage of living Jedi began to decrease accordingly."

Exile: "Hide their minds? How?"

HK-47: "Answer: Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult."

Exile: "I don't understand how that would work."

HK-47: "Answer: Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code."

HK-47: "Statement: The master felt it was ironic that only people who had experienced such passions could harm Jedi in such a way - that to kill Jedi, you had to be a human being. Revan found that quite amusing."

Exile: "How many ways to kill Jedi are there?"

HK-47: "Answer: The odds of me being forced to use such techniques against you has decreased, master. There are some more methods I could describe, if you wish."

Exile: "All right, go on."

HK-47: "Statement: Overwhelming odds is also a good tactic, master. There are few Jedi that can long hold their ground against a hundred attackers all firing at once... or being turned on by their own troops. But the most effective weapon against Jedi seems to be the erosion of the spirit."

Exile: "What do you mean?"

HK-47: "Answer: Revan claimed that psychological warfare against Jedi was important because much of their power comes from their state of mind, their connection to this religion called the "Force." Revan said that many Jedi have the capability to form connections to life around them, although few of them realized the extent to which this is possible."

There's a little more, but that's the main thrust and the rest is all tangled up in the game's plot, although all of this stuff also has quite a bit of relevance. Atton, who was one the assassins HK mentions, has some stuff to say about killing Jedi, but it's mostly the same things HK says.

C'nor
2011-10-03, 08:11 PM
I have played that, but it's been a while. I didn't get to the point where HK-47 was back up, either. But all of that is sound advice. A warning, though: Some Jedi can jump over mines, specifically those known as 'guardians'.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-03, 08:17 PM
I have played that, but it's been a while. I didn't get to the point where HK-47 was back up, either. But all of that is sound advice. A warning, though: Some Jedi can jump over mines, specifically those known as 'guardians'.

There's a word for an enemy that is considerate enough to put themselves in a nice, neat parabolic arc while I'm holding ranged weaponry.

It's "dead".

Vknight
2011-10-03, 08:18 PM
@TheThan thankyou that is what I was talking about.
Those lizards with a cortosis knife and the Jedi has no saber or force power. How long will they last to heavy blaster fire then?

And again slug throwing weapons are antiques. They cost more money then reasonable which is why you use a blaster, cheaper, more effective, greater range, improved ammo capacity make it a improved solution to slugthrowers.

C'nor
2011-10-03, 08:19 PM
True. But don't forget that smart Jedi will have invested in an energy shield, just in case.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-03, 09:03 PM
@TheThan thankyou that is what I was talking about.
Those lizards with a cortosis knife and the Jedi has no saber or force power. How long will they last to heavy blaster fire then?

And again slug throwing weapons are antiques. They cost more money then reasonable which is why you use a blaster, cheaper, more effective, greater range, improved ammo capacity make it a improved solution to slugthrowers.
A sword in the guts may be a antique but it will kill you just the same.
Jedi prescience seems limited to improving piloting and deflecting slow moving energy bolts.
Most bullets move faster then the speed of sound.Which is why I suggested a sniper rifle. You can't dodge if the sound of the bullet comes a good few seconds after it hits. Prescience on a reflex level won't even help then.
I suggested explosives for a similar reason, even if you see it coming, you can't dodge if there is nowhere to dodge to within force jump, slide, or whatever radius. This works especially well in an enclosed area.

Reverent-One
2011-10-03, 09:16 PM
A sword in the guts may be a antique but it will kill you just the same.
Jedi prescience seems limited to improving piloting and deflecting slow moving energy bolts.
Most bullets move faster then the speed of sound.Which is why I suggested a sniper rifle. You can't dodge if the sound of the bullet comes a good few seconds after it hits. Prescience on a reflex level won't even help then.

Sure it will, Jedi senses don't rely on sound. That said, a sniper (with either a blaster or slugthrower, whichever) still has a chance at taking them out when they least expect it.


I suggested explosives for a similar reason, even if you see it coming, you can't dodge if there is nowhere to dodge to within force jump, slide, or whatever radius. This works especially well in an enclosed area.

Also a good idea.

Coidzor
2011-10-03, 10:28 PM
And again slug throwing weapons are antiques. They cost more money then reasonable which is why you use a blaster, cheaper, more effective, greater range, improved ammo capacity make it a improved solution to slugthrowers.

Irrelevant. If you're hunting Jedi for profit, the investment capital necessary to do so makes the cost of buying or fabbing projectile weaponry moot.

As was pointed out, however, there are other security measures the Jedi could employ against blasters, which is yet one more point in favor of the combined arms strategy rather than a point against.

If you attack them in 30 different ways simultaneously they're going to go down, even more so if they can't use the same action and force power to thwart all modes of attack simultaneously. They still have to act within the action economy, so they're not going to be able to deflect 30 bolts, jump through a cloud of super-heated gas, catch and send back a spread-shot of molten lances of metal, and anticipate the detonation of a neutron bomb 50 feet above their position.

Gamgee
2011-10-04, 12:02 AM
Three words.

Force Redirected Projectiles.

Where is your god now?

Edit
Sustained Force Choke. A half decent roll means you can only take a single swift action, not enough to fire a gun.

Diplomacy talents for the negotiator. Three simple rolls and you'll be paying him for making you rethink your life.

Don't even get me started on illusions that can kill you. Or the crazy force sabers charisma build.

If all else fails hire Grondo the Hutt. If he can't take them out then just quit while your ahead.

Edit
Jedi are even known to block the bullets fired by traditional firearms. They can see into the future, reflexes don't really come into it that much unless attacking en mass.

1. Have honest good folk offer to help them.
2. You give them serving food for the Jedi. It's poisoned, don't tell them or the Jedi will know something is up from them.
3. When the Jedi is down from the poison double or even triple tap him in the head and other locations to be sure he's dead. This doesn't guarantee he's dead, damn force ghosts.

Simple. Really simple. So simple it hurts my brain no one has thought of this before.

Coidzor
2011-10-04, 12:32 AM
Three words.

Force Redirected Projectiles.

Where is your god now?

If they can redirect your projectiles you're not using enough or big enough.

And if you let them choose the battlefield, well, art of war and all that jazz.

Gamgee
2011-10-04, 12:38 AM
If they can redirect your projectiles you're not using enough or big enough.

And if you let them choose the battlefield, well, art of war and all that jazz.

That's true of anything though. If I send a hundred trillion billion zillion specs of dust in a giant pile rolling through our solar system. (I'll say large enough to add up to a sun sized object). Then we could likely be screwed due to the gravitational forces at play screwing everything up.

So when does it become a question of your skill and simply dumping enough explosives on the problem? Hunting implies a solo attitude, or small group. Nothing above a mob, though I suppose it's not out of the question. A level 1 character can click the fire button the deathstar.

Then again Palpatine could have gigantic force storms destroying everything. So your going to need to muster more and more forces. At what point does it stop simply being you and your resources and just mustering up a gigantic army/crusade to kill one guy?

Edit
Basically if you want to kill a Jedi your looking at astronomical costs involved. There's no telling what outside tricks he may turn to in his defense either. Who says he doesn't have contacts to help protect him?

It goes beyond individuals to such a grand scale you might as well call it infeasible as "hunting".

Edit2
Destiny Points, good god you better hope he isn't an important Jedi. Even if you kill him plot dictates spending a destiny point will bring him back as a cyborg. Now you have to fight a Jedi AND a cyborg.

Sith_Happens
2011-10-04, 01:50 AM
and a conveniently placed gungan.

Now THIS I have to hear.

C'nor
2011-10-04, 01:53 AM
Seconded. Tell us, O revered one, how did you manage to kill a Jedi with a conveniently placed Gungan?

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-04, 01:55 AM
If they can redirect your projectiles you're not using enough or big enough.

And if you let them choose the battlefield, well, art of war and all that jazz.

Er, size has nothing to do with it. The direction of force on a bullet is all forward. A bullet with a velocity of 1000 m/s is falling towards the Earth at the same rate a bullet you drop out of your hand is.

There's a classical demonstration of this you've probably heard of. You mark a small circle on the ground and then get two or three really big guys hold a broom handle at the top and push downwards, trying to hit the circle. Then you get the smallest guy you can find to crouch down to the ground next to the circle, to try to keep the handle from hitting the circle by pushing on the side of the broom.

The point from all of this being that it doesn't matter whether the Jedi is capable of stopping the bullet, all he has to do is give it a tap to the side. The classic APFSDS-T Abrams cartridge weighs ~18.1 kilograms. Even if all of that was directed at the target (which it's not), here's an office chair (http://www.amazon.com/HON-Products-High-Performance-Wave-formed-stain-resistant/dp/B004E2W2N8). Weighs 28.6 kilograms. Preeeeeeeeetty sure a Jedi could pick up an office chair and throw it around with their minds.

Deflecting a tank round, let alone smaller rounds, would be easy when you're precognitive and have telekinesis.

EDIT: Though sheer volume might work, you would need multiple gunners to set up a crossfire. Or not. Depends on how fast a Jedi could deflect bullets.

It also strikes me that Jedi played smart would be nasty in urban warfare. They're incredibly mobile and deadly in close quarters. And brown blends in quite nicely with rubble.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-04, 03:56 AM
Sure it will, Jedi senses don't rely on sound. That said, a sniper (with either a blaster or slugthrower, whichever) still has a chance at taking them out when they least expect it.

How far can it see? Again, movies seem to show reflex level. If you are far enough away, the sound won't hit the prescience until long after the bullet did. An immediately killing shot would likely give a Jedi the pre-cognition they need to dodge, but not where to.
Blaster bolts seem to move around the same speed as arrows, possibly less, I wouldn't ever snipe with one. Snipers certainly have the advantage that a far enough sniper will probably be "lost in the crowd" from a Force sense perspective.



Also a good idea.
Yes, I rather liked it.

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 05:49 AM
The Gungan was the not so comic relief for some rival gang members that we had been tasked with "showing them the door". It was the second time I had worn power armor my blaster malfunctioned and were in close quarters so no grenades. The gungan was their melee guy and frankly he was kind of badass, " Meesa gonna f•(k you up". So I rolled really really well on the grab then I rolled a twenty on the check to throw him. He flew across the room and his vibro sword carved up one of his biddies in the process. I didn't kill anyone, bu it gave mw the time I needed to get out a new weapon.

Hated power armor the two times I wore it all the encounters went horribly for us. So ScaR being the kind of gent he was vowed to never were power armor again .

Oh lots of explosives is a skill, its called demolitions and I had max ranks in it.

I dont think slugthrowers or slugs would be expensive, the opposite in fact should be true. Think about it: you ca make them out of a variety of materials ceramic, metal, plastic,crazy wookie wood. The physics and design is really well known, you could probably easily go to the library or internet and get designs 3d models and schematics, and if they could make black-market droids and blasters formed pieces of metal should be no problem.

Also a "small" company,by starwars standards only controls one planet's economy, surely already makes dozens of models and sell you a shipload of them and makes most of their cash on specialty ammo anyway, totally for killing rancors and gundarks not Jedi, sith, and stormtroopers.

I remember reading somewhere that the Rebel special ops teams use large caliber silenced alugthrowers because stormtrooper armor is built to withstand blasters and easily cracks when hit with slug.

druid91
2011-10-04, 06:09 AM
@TheThan thankyou that is what I was talking about.
Those lizards with a cortosis knife and the Jedi has no saber or force power. How long will they last to heavy blaster fire then?

And again slug throwing weapons are antiques. They cost more money then reasonable which is why you use a blaster, cheaper, more effective, greater range, improved ammo capacity make it a improved solution to slugthrowers.

Actually slug-throwers are either primitive or expensive.

Because the empire still uses the more advanced ones.

Heck with slug-throwers you can get a sniper rifle and shoot someone who isn't even in your line of sight! As long as they are in range.

Sith_Happens
2011-10-04, 07:00 AM
Blaster bolts seem to move around the same speed as arrows, possibly less, I wouldn't ever snipe with one.

Key word "seem." Yes, it is quite possible that blaster bolts are significantly slower than bullets. It is also possible, however, that they move at the same speed or even faster, and only appear slower because we can see them in the first place.

C'nor
2011-10-04, 07:08 AM
So, this is about blocking and dodging, right?

Why not just hit them with a laser? As a beam of, well, light, it's moving at the speed of light, and I really doubt that they can dodge or block that fast.

Gamgee
2011-10-04, 09:04 AM
So, this is about blocking and dodging, right?

Why not just hit them with a laser? As a beam of, well, light, it's moving at the speed of light, and I really doubt that they can dodge or block that fast.
It's not about simple dodging blocking. You need a time proof weapon here, something that can fire through time to completely negate their ability to detect the future. Or a way to disable their force abilities, which there are several (though close range). Meaning even if you do block the force, you've still got them within running distance. It's not a sealed deal your going to win, but at this point you've got them in a bad position and are likely to win.

@ Thread in general: Then there's the fact that a Jedi will learn your tactics and come up with ways to defeat you. Your maneuvers are all good for surprise, but once you get one ass kicking all of a sudden that's some of your tactics now not secret. The more you lose, the more difficult it is to kill them. As a rule of thumb, so quick efficiency is needed. If they escape you are in a world of hurt.

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 09:05 AM
Ok I geeked out and went and looked up blaster bolt velocity. The answer is...drum roll please.................

It varies, literally depending on the model/make of blaster they travel at different speeds usually well below ballistic velocities. Although some larger, is ship/vehicle mounted cannons clearly move very very fast though not even a good fraction of C. Most handheld examples traveling well under 1000 feet per second . Also would explain close quarter starship combat we see, and the liberal use of fighters using them to attack outside of the "horizon" of shipbound cannon range without endangering the ship itself.

However it doesn't matter as from my readings into Jedi light saber techniques indicates their blocking of projectiles begins before your immediate intent to shoot them. So the lightsaber is placed where the force tells them the path of the shot is coming. NOT as a reaction, but a preaction. Did I just make a new word?

Gamgee
2011-10-04, 09:09 AM
Ok I geeked out and went and looked up blaster bolt velocity. The answer is...drum roll please.................

It varies, literally depending on the model/make of blaster they travel at different speeds usually well below ballistic velocities. Although some larger, is ship/vehicle mounted cannons clearly move very very fast though not even a good fraction of C. Most handheld examples traveling well under 1000 feet per second . Also would explain close quarter starship combat we see, and the liberal use of fighters using them to attack outside of the "horizon" of shipbound cannon range without endangering the ship itself.

However it doesn't matter as from my readings into Jedi light saber techniques indicates their blocking of projectiles begins before your immediate intent to shoot them. So the lightsaber is placed where the force tells them the path of the shot is coming. NOT as a reaction, but a preaction. Did I just make a new word?
Precognitive ability, your body reacts through/because of the force ahead of what you normally would have done. Jedi know every shot your about to fire on some meta level they might not understand since science seems to be lacking. But yea, you got the gist of it.

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 09:11 AM
Also blaster "sniping" is done with special invisible blaster bolts, usually equipped with camouflage and sound stealthing.

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 09:43 AM
Yeap they are particularly tough targets. Surprise and rapid changes in tactics and methodologies even within one fight is entirely necessary. I also kept a sith, another players Sith lord, around to keep them occupied. The most challenging force users we ever faced were a force adept and an old Jedi Investigator who we eventually turned into an ally. The force adept was a whirling maelstrom of melee death riding a overboard ala back to the future. Used a chained kami, one end was a force field kami blade and the other was a fifteen foot chain that ended in a lightsaber. Almost killed us all.
The Investigator Jedi had survived the purges, the hunts, and lots of other things. He became a returning character, I impressed him because of my stun pad built into my helmet. Thought he had me tied up and disabled, he got too close and headbutt!

Reverent-One
2011-10-04, 10:45 AM
How far can it see? Again, movies seem to show reflex level. If you are far enough away, the sound won't hit the prescience until long after the bullet did. An immediately killing shot would likely give a Jedi the pre-cognition they need to dodge, but not where to.
Blaster bolts seem to move around the same speed as arrows, possibly less, I wouldn't ever snipe with one. Snipers certainly have the advantage that a far enough sniper will probably be "lost in the crowd" from a Force sense perspective.

There has been no demonstrated upper limit. And again, why do you think their precog relies on sound? It would be absolutely useless in space if that was the case. They know about danger before it happens, hearing the danger, or not, doesn't change that.

Sniping with blaster weapons has been repeatedly used in the Star Wars universe, so the speed issue you're assuming is evidently not an issue.

C'nor
2011-10-04, 12:27 PM
It's not about simple dodging blocking. You need a time proof weapon here, something that can fire through time to completely negate their ability to detect the future. Or a way to disable their force abilities, which there are several (though close range). Meaning even if you do block the force, you've still got them within running distance. It's not a sealed deal your going to win, but at this point you've got them in a bad position and are likely to win.


:smallconfused:

If they can't move fast enough to get out of the way, why does it matter whether or not they knew about the shot?

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 12:47 PM
Of course there is always the "one choice" trap. Get in the carbonite or the orphans get blown up. Though my character never used these kind of traps, found it distasteful and incredibly unsporting.

Knaight
2011-10-04, 12:58 PM
It seems to me that a particularly valuable weapon has been overlooked. The humble flamethrower can't be blocked, is difficult to dodge, can ignite robes*, and makes closing to melee range incredibly dangerous. Being on fire can really ruin someone's day, and much like explosives flamethrowers effectively cover an area, though to a much lower degree.

*One might need to wheedle this out of their GM.

Coidzor
2011-10-04, 01:19 PM
Seconded. Tell us, O revered one, how did you manage to kill a Jedi with a conveniently placed Gungan?

Obviously you place it so that they become friends with the Gungan.

The Gungan, being a gungan, drives them insane. You take them out while they're distracted by going insane.

They fall to the dark side due to their insanity and you take them out while they're in the middle of doing so & distracted.

The gungan instead drives them to suicide, you just get to claim credit.

C'nor
2011-10-04, 01:24 PM
:smallbiggrin:

Okay, that was funny. Now, has anyone actually tried that technique? :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2011-10-04, 01:26 PM
Er, size has nothing to do with it. The direction of force on a bullet is all forward. A bullet with a velocity of 1000 m/s is falling towards the Earth at the same rate a bullet you drop out of your hand is.

You're thinking far, far too small. A thermonuclear reaction in the right area is going to ruin the Jedi's day, even if he is able to move it 50 feet away from where it would have otherwise been before it went off. An artillery shell that bathes the area in civillian killing thermite and/or fire is going to be a distraction even if he chooses which civvies die.

A turbolaser bombardment of their position is going to necessitate them moving or devoting a significant amount of their attention towards the giant column of death hurtling towards them.


EDIT: Though sheer volume might work, you would need multiple gunners to set up a crossfire. Or not. Depends on how fast a Jedi could deflect bullets.

Well, how fast can they deflect bullets in the most generous official RPG system, considering that's what we're talking about anyway, as this is in RPGs rather than Media discussion?


It also strikes me that Jedi played smart would be nasty in urban warfare. They're incredibly mobile and deadly in close quarters. And brown blends in quite nicely with rubble.

Nah, they'd go all weepy and dark side too quickly from the massive numbers of civillian casualties inflicted by them and by those trying to kill them.


:smallbiggrin:

Okay, that was funny. Now, has anyone actually tried that technique? :smalltongue:

Palpatine did, but it was mostly just an indirect factor in his plans. :smallamused:


There has been no demonstrated upper limit.

Of course there's an upper limit. Either they can only do so many actions in a round or they only have so many force points they can spend doing it.

C'nor
2011-10-04, 01:30 PM
Nah, they'd go all weepy and dark side too quickly from the massive numbers of civillian casualties inflicted by them and by those trying to kill them.


Ah, but does using that part of the Force require being evil? If their motivations stay the same, I wouldn't mind if all of my Jedi turned into Sith.

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 01:36 PM
Thermite thrower was my preferred close combat weapon that And a buckyball fluid sprayer.

pendell
2011-10-04, 01:50 PM
Hmm .. how about hanging a suicide vest on a battle droid armed and equipped for melee combat? If the Jedi is stupid enough to close to lightsaber range, detonate the vest and blow both Jedi and Droid into Oneness with the Force.

The Jedi's responses must be either Force powers or running away.

If Force powers, just keep throwing droids at him until he runs out of force points. You can then use the droids to herd him into a situation where he is vulnerable to an area-effect attack which he can't deflect. Nor will his precognition help. Essentially we're putting him in the position of a king on a chessboard alone against a queen and a rook. He can see as much of the future as he likes, but there's no way to avoid checkmate.

How would a Jedi defend against these tactics?

The first best way is to gather intelligence. Not just force precognition, but through surveillance and sapient informants. If Scar is putting together all this prep time to fight, the best way is not to step into his cunningly prepared battle plan to begin with. Avoid combat altogether.

The next step is to have a few mundane allies who are handy with blasters and can help me get out of these scrapes. Heck, if I was running a Jedi, I'd see if I couldn't persuade the Jedi Council to help me hire a pair of bounty hunter bodyguards for just such an eventuality. Scar is quite good , seemingly, against a single Jedi given adequate preparation time. We'll see if he does as well when we inject, say, a platoon of mundane soldiers into the mix as well.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Reverent-One
2011-10-04, 02:22 PM
Of course there's an upper limit. Either they can only do so many actions in a round or they only have so many force points they can spend doing it.

Niether of those have anything to do with how far their danger sense works, and if you saw the post I was responding to, you'd see we were discussing in-universe concepts, not RPG mechanics (unless there's a SW RPG that does have the danger sense work based off sound, but I'm not aware of one and given Raven's references to the movies, I doubt he was referring to one).

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 03:03 PM
Hmm. Platoon of mundane soldiers is quite doable. Our DM did manage to capture us twice at middle levels using the first time a team of 8 bounty hunters and the second time using a 60 storm troopers and 2 at-st. They lost both at-st and 22 storm troopers. I rolled amazingly that entire scene, ending in 5 rounds of being the last man standing, every storm trooper firing stun bolts, in classic storm trooper fashion the couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Used up all my good rills with grenades that scene. Couldn't look at a grenade without flubbing the roll after that, nearly got everyone killed in a space station when I rolled a one with a thermal set.

But then again there was no Jedi council when we played.

GoatToucher
2011-10-04, 03:26 PM
So, to sum up:

How to kill a Jedi: Resort to arcane and Byzantine methods of overpowering/circumventing his mystical and melee abilities. These methods are typically overwrought to the point of ridiculousness and prohibitively expensive to say the least.


How to kill a Jedi hunting bounty hunter:

Step One: Wait for him to eat a sandwich.

Step Two: Shoot him in the face.

Alternatives to step two involve shooting him in the face with different weapons, stabbing him in the face, spraying acid or poison in his face, or throwing a plate of flesh eating weevils disguised as curry rice in his face. This last is particularly effective, as sandwiches are typically eaten in food service scenarios, and while a bounty hunter might have a keen eye for a drawn blade or blaster, few are on the look out for a deadly plate of curry rice.


The even shorter version being that killing a Jedi is a considerably more complicate process than killing regular folk, and that regular folk should bear that in mind when the Jedi come for them to avenge their friends (which, it is worth noting, is something that your friends, being scoundrels, will not do after you are dead/imprisoned).

Gamgee
2011-10-04, 03:45 PM
My Mandalorian squad of PC's regularly took down heavy weaponry. At-At level and hundreds of storm troopers. One or two well half assed Jedi were enough to screw up their day big time. Eventually they did adapt to their techniques and win but it was the hardest recurring boss fight ever for them. It came down to simply wearing the Jedi out of their force powers and then finishing them off.

Lucky for them they were made for taking a beating, so the Jedi's couldn't defeat them fast enough. As for how MUCH blaster fire?

Well a level 10 Jedi Padawan I had with a half decent build was deflecting... tons of shots over the period of a round. Even with autofire it took at least a hundred troops six rounds to whittle him down and finally capture him.

At level 20 I sent hundreds and hundreds and never managed it. So deflecting shots doesn't seem to be a problem. Only sheer force takes them down, or other Jedi. Clever planning and surprise/long range combat can help, but is no guarantee for success.

Don't even get me started on the shield ability which just simply negates most damage from smaller end mooks/enemies without even needing to deflect.

Edit
Someone suggested a flamethrower, ding ding ding! You are a winner! It's an amazing Jedi hunting weapon, at least when they try to close in and kill you. Just have someone with you or pray to god your fighting one without force choke, or he'll just crush you to unconsciousness.

Coidzor
2011-10-04, 04:22 PM
So, to sum up:

How to kill a Jedi: Resort to arcane and Byzantine methods of overpowering/circumventing his mystical and melee abilities. These methods are typically overwrought to the point of ridiculousness and prohibitively expensive to say the least.

Maxim 37. "There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'"

Combined arms being the most effective military doctrine for fighting conventional foes and for fighting Jedi just means it's good doctrine.

You only think they're Byzantine because you're conditioned to accept ignoring the implications of the actual tech level by convention. Obviously if you're killing Jedi you're not playing SW as heroic space opera SW, you're playing SW as the Shadowrun component of SW, or possibly the Hunter component of SW.

Vknight
2011-10-04, 04:42 PM
Edit
Someone suggested a flamethrower, ding ding ding! You are a winner! It's an amazing Jedi hunting weapon, at least when they try to close in and kill you. Just have someone with you or pray to god your fighting one without force choke, or he'll just crush you to unconsciousness.

I suggested the flamethrower and again if your that close carry a lightsaber resistant weapon. Preferably a pure cortosis dagger because it shorts out lightsabers for 1d5minutes.
Also aerial bombardment is extremely effective against Jedi and others especially radiation bombs.... there are rules for them.

Gamgee
2011-10-04, 04:58 PM
I suggested the flamethrower and again if your that close carry a lightsaber resistant weapon. Preferably a pure cortosis dagger because it shorts out lightsabers for 1d5minutes.
Also aerial bombardment is extremely effective against Jedi and others especially radiation bombs.... there are rules for them.

True horror story. The party called down some artillery shells on a Jedi only to have the first lobbed back at them. Allowing him to survive the salvo relatively unscathed.

Further bombardment finished him off, but they suffered some incredible damage with their own shells striking them.

The Reverend
2011-10-04, 06:17 PM
Our dm in ScaRs campaign did pull a nasty stunt on our sith. Our mid level recurring villain in the final battle had a beam weapon that was too wide to block. He still took something like 2/3rds damage on a successful block. He described the barrel as about half a foot wide.

He also did not allow a lot of the stuff from the books and other media: cortosis weave, disruptors, ysilmari, mandalorian steel, etc.

I played in four starwars d20 campaigns and learned a couple of things. Two of the campaigns did not count force points, one was awesome one kinda blew. Scars was awesome because our guy playing the sith played really really well the other campaign after a couple levels all the action was being hogged by the force users.

The other two campaigns counted force points. One was all Jedi police procedural set deep in the old republic a thousandish years before the clone wars and the other set in a similar era, but were all non-Jedi Antares Rangers supporting NPCs, those were both also really fun.

Battleship789
2011-10-04, 08:17 PM
I suggested the flamethrower and again if your that close carry a lightsaber resistant weapon. Preferably a pure cortosis dagger because it shorts out lightsabers for 1d5minutes.
Also aerial bombardment is extremely effective against Jedi and others especially radiation bombs.... there are rules for them.

Flamethrowers are okay...but Mace Windu has something to say to you. :smallwink:

Also, pure cortosis (depending on the source...) is either ridiculously strong and ludicrously expensive (the Rule of Two set of novels) or incredibly brittle and ludicrously expensive (most other sources.) Generally speaking, any weaponry that uses cortosis is actually a cortosis alloy or carbon fiber weave, as pure cortosis would fall apart if one attempted to make a weapon out of it. Again, this is based mostly on which source you use.

While alternative weapons (ala sonic weapons, mines, flamethrowers, flechette launchers, cortosis weapons, etc) are a good start, by themselves they probably won't be enough. (Grenades and rockets are generally a bad idea, as Jedi can TK them around.) As has been mentioned, overkill (in this sense, overkill means a large amount of troops) and surprise are by far the best options to kill a Jedi. When combat is mano a mano, however, the best chance a non-Force Sensitive has against a Jedi is to get the drop on the them (hard but doable; as has been mentioned, the "crowd effect" is a pretty good tactic) and use unconventional weaponry and tactics (guerrilla style, but in a crowded area instead of the wild.)

While orbital bombardment would probably work, for killing one individual it is too impractical and expensive (there are exceptions, but a generic Jedi is probably not worth immolating a square kilometer.)

Gamgee
2011-10-04, 10:53 PM
Flamethrowers are okay...but Mace Windu has something to say to you. :smallwink:

Also, pure cortosis (depending on the source...) is either ridiculously strong and ludicrously expensive (the Rule of Two set of novels) or incredibly brittle and ludicrously expensive (most other sources.) Generally speaking, any weaponry that uses cortosis is actually a cortosis alloy or carbon fiber weave, as pure cortosis would fall apart if one attempted to make a weapon out of it. Again, this is based mostly on which source you use.

While alternative weapons (ala sonic weapons, mines, flamethrowers, flechette launchers, cortosis weapons, etc) are a good start, by themselves they probably won't be enough. (Grenades and rockets are generally a bad idea, as Jedi can TK them around.) As has been mentioned, overkill (in this sense, overkill means a large amount of troops) and surprise are by far the best options to kill a Jedi. When combat is mano a mano, however, the best chance a non-Force Sensitive has against a Jedi is to get the drop on the them (hard but doable; as has been mentioned, the "crowd effect" is a pretty good tactic) and use unconventional weaponry and tactics (guerrilla style, but in a crowded area instead of the wild.)

While orbital bombardment would probably work, for killing one individual it is too impractical and expensive (there are exceptions, but a generic Jedi is probably not worth immolating a square kilometer.)
If it get's to the point you have to orbital bombard him chances are your already on the ground having a seizure and he did some mega mind trick on you.

If this isn't the case, expect something bad. Like stronger than Starkiller kind of bad, ie pulling your ship down to the planet kind of bad. If it's a Sith expect even worse.

C'nor
2011-10-04, 10:54 PM
New tactic: Hire a Sith.

Coidzor
2011-10-04, 11:09 PM
If this isn't the case, expect something bad. Like stronger than Starkiller kind of bad, ie pulling your ship down to the planet kind of bad. If it's a Sith expect even worse.

No, no, if the GM is going Starkiller and beyond, you just immediately go to resolving the GMing problem the game has.

Vknight
2011-10-04, 11:17 PM
Other Tactic: Hire Mandalorians with phrik vibroswords. It's much more common can only take some much exposure to a lightsaber and was commonly used on Magnaguards for there staffs.

Better Tactic: Make the Jedi's only option leaving the planet then space him. Must species cannot survive space.
Seriously if you catch a jedi is space there much easier pickings

Gralamin
2011-10-05, 12:24 AM
Other Tactic: Hire Mandalorians with phrik vibroswords. It's much more common can only take some much exposure to a lightsaber and was commonly used on Magnaguards for there staffs.

Better Tactic: Make the Jedi's only option leaving the planet then space him. Must species cannot survive space.
Seriously if you catch a jedi is space there much easier pickings

Powerful Jedi who are not surprised can survive in space for a small amount of time. Enough so they could potentially be rescued. At the very least, Satele Shan has been shown to be able to do so in "Fatal Alliance".

This means you need to remember to blast them after spacing them. :smallwink:

C'nor
2011-10-05, 12:25 AM
Nah, just space them into the corona of a sun.

Gamgee
2011-10-05, 01:37 AM
No, no, if the GM is going Starkiller and beyond, you just immediately go to resolving the GMing problem the game has.
I went beyond Starkiller. (http://timetraveler.ytmnd.com/) :smallcool:

By that I mean the campaign was ridiculously over powered. Ratakan Super Battleships with manufacturing plants in them. Hundreds of mooks per encounter. Basilisk Wardroid strikes at level 1 on unsuspecting planets. The techie concocted the super basilisk droid half way through the campaign and it was known for single handedly destroying fleets one ship at a time form the inside out. Thankfully it never reached mass production. The diplomat could talk down palpatine in one damn roll his charisma and talents were so min maxed. Starkiller would look like a level 1 newbie in this campaign, not even a terribly interesting or good one.

Rocket jumping onto a Sith Walker is rather on par. Super Proton Torpedo launchers at level 12, sending squadrons of fighters was not an effective deterrent against them. A sniper bot who could kill almost anything from miles away with an auto firing sniper of death, his weapon of choice was a converted E-Web into a sniper.

Such an amazing game.

Alleran
2011-10-05, 03:56 AM
The diplomat could talk down palpatine in one damn roll his charisma and talents were so min maxed.
That's not very impressive. I can easily create a character who has a Stealth score so high, he could give Palpatine a wedgie without ever being noticed. But in Star Wars (particularly SAGA edition), the most abusable thing is droids. Example (I picked this up somewhere, not sure exactly where):

First, this was a very, very optimised droid. At level 2, he had a Use Computer check on the order of a +22, with an old B2 battle droid brain to auto-assist him (+24 total). This is BEFORE actually rolling a d20. He was also slightly psychopathic and entirely willing to engineer a brutal death for anything that threatened him.

This first became clear in a game where one of the players, sick of his constant thieving and threats, put a gun to his dome and said that if he kept down the path he was taking, she would shoot him.

But he was patient. He didn't do anything to her for days. Then, he went back to the party ship and collected a concussion missile. He stripped it down (his Mechanics check was similarly elevated, around a +20 or so) and converted it into a home-made bomb. He placed it outside her room on the ship, and when it went, he blew out half the side of the thing.

Justice had been served, as far as he was concerned. But this doesn't even compare to what he did to an Imperial shipyard.

Level 2, as mentioned. I should also preface this with the fact that although he can disrupt a campaign very easily, he roleplays the droid exceedingly well. We were a Rebel cell, sent to infiltrate it and get back some design specs on a new ship the Imperials were building. So we all got jobs working there (dockworkers, engineers, and so on; one of us had an idea to pull a "negative flow coupler + positive flow regulator" trick to overload the power core for a Star Destroyer and blow it up when they tried to get it out of the shipyard, but that never happened for reasons that will be explained), with the R2 working near a computer terminal. If they had only known how terrible an idea this would be. Because this R2 didn't see why we were going to WAIT after getting the information. He was entirely willing to ruin their day in a brutal manner right then and there.

So first, he hacked the computer terminal he was using. With his Use Computer check, he dominated the roll, turned the computer into his best buddy, and downloaded all the information that we needed. But now the fun would begin. From his computer terminal base of operations, he zipped through the Imperial network, hacking into their central base security. With brutal efficiency (and a Force Point or two), he demolished the AI responsible for managing said security and took complete and total control of the shipyard.

Next, he hacked himself a series of personal access codes that would let him get in and out at will. He followed this by ordering several million metric tons of screws and bolts, to be delivered all at the same day. I believe they were also every single size except the ones that the ISD needed. He wrecked their shipping schedule, turning it upside down and turning the well-oiled Imperial war machine into a cluster**** of bureaucratic red tape.

Then, he checked to make sure we were all away from the ISD. And proceeded to vent it to space, instantly killing thousands and thousands of Imperial workers. For anybody else, this would be enough. Not this R2. Now he was going to add insult to injury (suggestions of signing Darth Vader up to a dating service were thrown around in the group). He released all the cranes holding the Star Destroyer in place, and coupled with some Force magic from another member of the group it began to drift freely and ram itself into whatever was in its path. ISDs are very big ships. It did some damage, we'll leave it at that.

Now, not all of the workers on the ISD had died. Thousands did, yes, but thousands more made it to escape pods and jettisoned. So there were hundreds of these things drifting around the shipyards, which had turned to chaos. Then an even more evil idea came to the R2 astromech. He hacked into the Imperial surveillance systems, and generated alarms declaring that the shipyards were under attack by Rebel X-wings.

Immediately, the Star Destroyers on guard duty, plus the shipyard's own starfighters, scrambled TIEs. Little did they know that every single X-wing signature on their systems (which had been THOROUGHLY compromised) was in fact an escape pod from the ISD.

And then to make his point, the astromech converted half the TIE transponder codes to X-wing transponder codes before leaving them to merrily shoot each other (and kill off all their workers) out of the sky while he trundled off, looking completely harmless. Carrying all the information we could have possibly wanted about the shipyards (and a lot that we hadn't needed to get), plus access codes and backdoors into the shipyard security that he could use to get in any time and any place (as long as he had a HoloNet connection, that is... so he could do it again from the other side of the galaxy). Of course, he only left after he had vented his escape route to space and killed everything that might have been a threat to him during his departure. He was a droid. Nobody suspects a droid. And droids don't need to breathe.

Needless to say, the Empire was NOT happy about that particular turn of events when they (eventually) realised what they'd been doing.
Droids are extremely broken when done right (actually, Mechanics and Use Computer checks are in general).

The Reverend
2011-10-05, 08:22 AM
Yes the computer check when optimized causes more havoc than a team of Jedi. Some friends of mine had before I met them had a campaign that went 29 lvls with a DM that had encyclopedic knowledge of the starwars universe. One several forms of dark side awesome came out at the end, but the most interesting was the character that turned himself into a computer virus. Yeap that was a high power campaign.

As far as papaltine and Vader go, I always advise what my old dm used to say. No matter how awesome you are papaltine is godlike and Darth is his angel of vengeance. You cannot beat them.

Gamgee
2011-10-05, 09:40 AM
That's not very impressive. I can easily create a character who has a Stealth score so high, he could give Palpatine a wedgie without ever being noticed. But in Star Wars (particularly SAGA edition), the most abusable thing is droids. Example (I picked this up somewhere, not sure exactly where):

First, this was a very, very optimised droid. At level 2, he had a Use Computer check on the order of a +22, with an old B2 battle droid brain to auto-assist him (+24 total). This is BEFORE actually rolling a d20. He was also slightly psychopathic and entirely willing to engineer a brutal death for anything that threatened him.

This first became clear in a game where one of the players, sick of his constant thieving and threats, put a gun to his dome and said that if he kept down the path he was taking, she would shoot him.

But he was patient. He didn't do anything to her for days. Then, he went back to the party ship and collected a concussion missile. He stripped it down (his Mechanics check was similarly elevated, around a +20 or so) and converted it into a home-made bomb. He placed it outside her room on the ship, and when it went, he blew out half the side of the thing.

Justice had been served, as far as he was concerned. But this doesn't even compare to what he did to an Imperial shipyard.

Level 2, as mentioned. I should also preface this with the fact that although he can disrupt a campaign very easily, he roleplays the droid exceedingly well. We were a Rebel cell, sent to infiltrate it and get back some design specs on a new ship the Imperials were building. So we all got jobs working there (dockworkers, engineers, and so on; one of us had an idea to pull a "negative flow coupler + positive flow regulator" trick to overload the power core for a Star Destroyer and blow it up when they tried to get it out of the shipyard, but that never happened for reasons that will be explained), with the R2 working near a computer terminal. If they had only known how terrible an idea this would be. Because this R2 didn't see why we were going to WAIT after getting the information. He was entirely willing to ruin their day in a brutal manner right then and there.

So first, he hacked the computer terminal he was using. With his Use Computer check, he dominated the roll, turned the computer into his best buddy, and downloaded all the information that we needed. But now the fun would begin. From his computer terminal base of operations, he zipped through the Imperial network, hacking into their central base security. With brutal efficiency (and a Force Point or two), he demolished the AI responsible for managing said security and took complete and total control of the shipyard.

Next, he hacked himself a series of personal access codes that would let him get in and out at will. He followed this by ordering several million metric tons of screws and bolts, to be delivered all at the same day. I believe they were also every single size except the ones that the ISD needed. He wrecked their shipping schedule, turning it upside down and turning the well-oiled Imperial war machine into a cluster**** of bureaucratic red tape.

Then, he checked to make sure we were all away from the ISD. And proceeded to vent it to space, instantly killing thousands and thousands of Imperial workers. For anybody else, this would be enough. Not this R2. Now he was going to add insult to injury (suggestions of signing Darth Vader up to a dating service were thrown around in the group). He released all the cranes holding the Star Destroyer in place, and coupled with some Force magic from another member of the group it began to drift freely and ram itself into whatever was in its path. ISDs are very big ships. It did some damage, we'll leave it at that.

Now, not all of the workers on the ISD had died. Thousands did, yes, but thousands more made it to escape pods and jettisoned. So there were hundreds of these things drifting around the shipyards, which had turned to chaos. Then an even more evil idea came to the R2 astromech. He hacked into the Imperial surveillance systems, and generated alarms declaring that the shipyards were under attack by Rebel X-wings.

Immediately, the Star Destroyers on guard duty, plus the shipyard's own starfighters, scrambled TIEs. Little did they know that every single X-wing signature on their systems (which had been THOROUGHLY compromised) was in fact an escape pod from the ISD.

And then to make his point, the astromech converted half the TIE transponder codes to X-wing transponder codes before leaving them to merrily shoot each other (and kill off all their workers) out of the sky while he trundled off, looking completely harmless. Carrying all the information we could have possibly wanted about the shipyards (and a lot that we hadn't needed to get), plus access codes and backdoors into the shipyard security that he could use to get in any time and any place (as long as he had a HoloNet connection, that is... so he could do it again from the other side of the galaxy). Of course, he only left after he had vented his escape route to space and killed everything that might have been a threat to him during his departure. He was a droid. Nobody suspects a droid. And droids don't need to breathe.

Needless to say, the Empire was NOT happy about that particular turn of events when they (eventually) realised what they'd been doing.
Droids are extremely broken when done right (actually, Mechanics and Use Computer checks are in general).
+25 Diplomacy at level 1. Yours is good, but getting anyone on their side at level 1 was ridiculous. It only got crazier with the Jedi talents where he could talk anyone down in three rounds. Anyone, Star Destroyer (Equivalent ships in the Kotor era) Captains. Palpatine like villains. The political fall back of this guy was immense, he could talk down anything. And if that didn't work Mandalore (the other PC) would destroy anyone who somehow did find a way to resist, or got on their bad side.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-05, 11:25 AM
Niether of those have anything to do with how far their danger sense works, and if you saw the post I was responding to, you'd see we were discussing in-universe concepts, not RPG mechanics (unless there's a SW RPG that does have the danger sense work based off sound, but I'm not aware of one and given Raven's references to the movies, I doubt he was referring to one).
I am not saying it based off sound per say, but the prescience needs to key off something for directionality. Let's say it 'looks' into the future and 'sees' the Jedi been hit. With a blaster, it's obvious what direction it's coming from, been slow*, highly visible, and noisy but lets look at a shot with a bullet, almost a shell really, hitting the head from a few KM distance. Insta death. The sense can 'see' that the Jedi in the present needs to dodge, the future showing a Bad Thing, but can have no idea from where.
*Anyone who says blasters are the same speed as bullets, we just can't see bullets, has never heard of tracer rounds.

Reverent-One
2011-10-05, 11:47 AM
I am not saying it based off sound per say, but the prescience needs to key off something for directionality. Let's say it 'looks' into the future and 'sees' the Jedi been hit. With a blaster, it's obvious what direction it's coming from, been slow*, highly visible, and noisy but lets look at a shot with a bullet, almost a shell really, hitting the head from a few KM distance. Insta death. The sense can 'see' that the Jedi in the present needs to dodge, the future showing a Bad Thing, but can have no idea from where.
*Anyone who says blasters are the same speed as bullets, we just can't see bullets, has never heard of tracer rounds.

Or it can "see" the bullet, since we're talking about a future sense here, not literal eyesight, and/or where the bullet is going to hit, and/or the direction to the sniper.

Coidzor
2011-10-05, 12:32 PM
Example (I picked this up somewhere, not sure exactly where):

He hacked into the Imperial surveillance systems, and generated alarms declaring that the shipyards were under attack by Rebel X-wings.

Immediately, the Star Destroyers on guard duty, plus the shipyard's own starfighters, scrambled TIEs. Little did they know that every single X-wing signature on their systems (which had been THOROUGHLY compromised) was in fact an escape pod from the ISD.

And then to make his point, the astromech converted half the TIE transponder codes to X-wing transponder codes before leaving them to merrily shoot each other (and kill off all their workers) out of the sky while he trundled off, looking completely harmless.


You can see the vast liberties the DM was taking when he forgot that TIEs work by visual confirmation, as do Star Destroyers.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-05, 03:18 PM
Or it can "see" the bullet, since we're talking about a future sense here, not literal eyesight, and/or where the bullet is going to hit, and/or the direction to the sniper.

Possibly, but that is a lot harder then seen a blaster bolt unless tracer ammunition is used.

Reverent-One
2011-10-05, 03:34 PM
Possibly, but that is a lot harder then seen a blaster bolt unless tracer ammunition is used.

Which is why I had "see" in quotation marks, there's little to indicate that the jedi's danger sense shows them a literal mental picture of the danger and they have to decide how to react by looking at that image ("Oh, there's a blaster bolt coming to my right, at about arm level. I should place my lightsaber there"). The movies obviously have issues describing what it is the danger appears as to a Jedi, since that would pretty much require a monologue from a Jedi describing it. Books that are able of more clearly demonstrate it generally do not describe it as a literal mental picture, but more of a feeling. They just know what's going to happen and generally do not react by planning a respose but are able to instinctively avoid, block, or respond to it. In this case, the fact that a bullet is harder to see would make no difference.

Ravens_cry
2011-10-05, 04:02 PM
Which is why I said it operates on a reflex level. The danger sense still needs information in that possible future.
If, in a possible future, that the sense, well, senses they only die, it can't tell them where it feels it came from. I am not saying they see a vision.
Think of it like hysterical blindness. The person can not see anything, they are not consciously aware of a mental image, yet they can avoid obstacles that can only be sensed visually.
Of course, a Jedi has others senses that can be a source that can be relayed back in time, but that is why a sniper should be as far away as possible.
If I could import some canon, excuse the pun, from elsewhere, I would get a transporter modified TR-116 (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/TR-116_rifle). Very, very much the element of surprise, and even if they deflect it, it's not coming back to me.

Alleran
2011-10-05, 08:24 PM
Regarding danger sense, I've always thought of it as being instinctual. It's the Force telling your body where to be before the danger actually happens, and is part of the reason why Jedi seem to move so fast. They're not just moving at superhuman speeds (though there is a degree of that as well), they're reacting to you before the attack materialises.


You can see the vast liberties the DM was taking when he forgot that TIEs work by visual confirmation, as do Star Destroyers.
Battles routinely take place (or should take place, anyway) at hundreds of kilometres. Even point-blank range in ROTJ seemed to be some distance for the capital ships, although the fighters were in up close and dogfighting it out.


+25 Diplomacy at level 1. Yours is good, but getting anyone on their side at level 1 was ridiculous.
Downside to Diplomacy is that you have to speak to the target. Myself, I operate on the principle that some things are just too outrageous to work. I ignore Palpatine's statblock (and Yoda's) for that same reason.

The stealth build I was referring to is a Defel + Reflec Shadowskin + White Current Adept + CHA 18 + Skill Focus (UtF) + Cloak. Even at 1st level, you're pushing a +32-35 modifier for sneaking (assuming you get high rolls activating Cloak for that extra Force bonus) before including the Total Concealment (-10 to Perception checks to detect you) of Cloak, making an effective total of roughly +45. Add favourable circumstances (another +2) and Rapport from a friend (+2 Aid Another, +2 insight), and you're closing in on +50.

Couple it to a Nightstinger sniper rifle and a stealth-jetpack, and you're a flying, invisible and nigh-undetectable sniper. And once you reach second level, if you multiclass and pick up another talent (Force Immersion), it functions against all electronic devices as well. You can also swap out the Defel race for an Ewok (getting a re-roll on Stealth checks).

The Reverend
2011-10-05, 08:50 PM
NO, NO EWOKS!! Its my only rule in starwars

Vknight
2011-10-05, 10:46 PM
WHAT?!!? No ewoks!! Next thing your going to say Jar Jar Binks was cool Outside of Darths & Droids

whitelaughter
2011-10-05, 11:41 PM
A basic strategy that people are ignoring: the only practical way to travel between star systems is by ship - if the ship the Jedi is on is rigged to explode half way through the trip, they're in trouble. (yes, this does run into the precognition problem, but has the advantage that if the Jedi does figure it out you're in a different star system).

Tactic I used on my group - droid dressed up as Darth Vader (the armor made out of materials from a death camp, so reeked of Dark Side). Droid was filled to the brim with thermal detonators. Precognition tells Jedi that most likely result of combat is mutual kill - que heroic self-sacrifice.

C'nor
2011-10-05, 11:45 PM
Have a droid on the ship reprogram the nav computer so that one of the hyperspace jumps puts the ship inside a sun that's near enough it only takes a few seconds or minutes to get there.

They don't notice until they've almost jumped, and by then, it's too late.

Coidzor
2011-10-06, 12:47 AM
Battles routinely take place (or should take place, anyway) at hundreds of kilometres. Even point-blank range in ROTJ seemed to be some distance for the capital ships, although the fighters were in up close and dogfighting it out.

So the TIEs that have to go in up close and dogfight it out as you just said are killing each other at hundreds of kilometers where they can't see one another despite being shown to use visual confirmation. Right. :smalltongue:

Knaight
2011-10-06, 01:00 AM
So the TIEs that have to go in up close and dogfight it out as you just said are killing each other at hundreds of kilometers where they can't see one another despite being shown to use visual confirmation. Right. :smalltongue:

I think this is where the "should" comes in.

Alleran
2011-10-06, 01:01 AM
So the TIEs that have to go in up close and dogfight it out as you just said are killing each other at hundreds of kilometers where they can't see one another despite being shown to use visual confirmation. Right. :smalltongue:
I don't imagine that they were killing each other forever, since whoever wrote that actually went on to say that the Empire worked out what was happening eventually.

Coidzor
2011-10-06, 01:11 AM
I think this is where the "should" comes in.

I think this is where the story makes it obvious the DM was fudging things for the team-killer, possibly for his or her own amusement, as my original statement on the subject implied. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2011-10-07, 07:50 AM
Battles routinely take place (or should take place, anyway) at hundreds of kilometres. Even point-blank range in ROTJ seemed to be some distance for the capital ships, although the fighters were in up close and dogfighting it out.

Before they start moving in, when Piett says "Hold here" and the response is "We're not going to attack them?" the range looks to be about 100 km or so (we know the size of a star destroyer or SSD, from various comparisons that have been done, and we can estimate its range from its apparent size "out the window" of a rebel ship.)

Using the same technique, you can estimate the distance from the command tower of the Death Star, to the Executor, when The Emperor starts taunting Luke "Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battlestation".

It comes to around 1000 km or so.

In The Clone Wars, when the ships are approaching the Malevolence, and are "still out of range" when it fires- again, the distance is in the low hundreds of km at most.

So a case could be made that capital ship ranges in star wars are, in fact, as they are portrayed in the West End Games roleplaying game- that is, 80-odd km or so.

druid91
2011-10-07, 11:30 AM
So the TIEs that have to go in up close and dogfight it out as you just said are killing each other at hundreds of kilometers where they can't see one another despite being shown to use visual confirmation. Right. :smalltongue:

Rebels do steal TIE fighters on occasion for undercover attacks.

That could even be the Reason for the sudden change in transponder signal, they were revealing themselves to attack, And didn't want to shoot each other.

Coidzor
2011-10-07, 01:52 PM
Rebels do steal TIE fighters on occasion for undercover attacks.

That could even be the Reason for the sudden change in transponder signal, they were revealing themselves to attack, And didn't want to shoot each other.

And make them look like escape pods? From the ship that they knew had just suffered a critical failure.

You see the problem with just responding to one thread of a whole quilt of contrivance?

I must admit, it's kind of bizarrely amusing how emotionally invested people have gotten into defending this example's DM as not possibly fudging things at all.

druid91
2011-10-07, 01:58 PM
And make them look like escape pods? From the ship that they knew had just suffered a critical failure.

You see the problem with just responding to one thread of a whole quilt of contrivance?

I must admit, it's kind of bizarrely amusing how emotionally invested people have gotten into defending this example's DM as not possibly fudging things at all.

Well I only responded to one thread because there was only one thread I could respond to.

As for the escape pods, quite a few were probably blasted by the star-destroyers.