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Calanon
2011-10-03, 02:21 AM
When i first started playing 3.5 My DM asked us all what we wanted to do and my friend said "I want to Kill the gods" the DM almost instantaneously said "You can't" Now later on in my life I learn the crushing truth: "You can in fact kill the gods" ...Now I'm confused...

So the question is:
http://somemagicalrealism.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/herchades.jpg "How do you Kill a god?" Hades from Disneys "Hercules"

and I keep coming back to the same problem "You can't, their immortal" so I stole the response "So make them Mortal" now a deeper and more complex problem comes to me. How would you go about doing that? It doesn't seem possible. It would clearly allow a saving throw, be subject to spell resistance and other factors that would just make the god want to slaughter you... So how could you do it without those things? I came to another Interesting fellow named Kasus, a Netherese Arcanist who created a spell so powerful that it actually killed a God (By accident and with drastic results of course...) So I ask you people of the Playground to help me figure out a way for the up and coming wizard to do the impossible and kill a god.

Use whatever source you have. (Epic Spells, Regular Spells, Swords, Spears, and Toothpicks for all I care)

I just want it to be laid down once and for all. Can you kill a god?
(No Divine Ranks. This is for just a regular NON-DEIFIED Creature)

Doorhandle
2011-10-03, 02:32 AM
They mostly maintain immortality though not having R.A.W sanctified stat-blocks. You can't fight what does not have stats.

In Exalted, Killing a god is no harder than killing a decently-good exalted, depending on the god.

In 4th ed, Although you need to go on a plot-specific quest to get the item needed to stop a god from dissipating and disappearing once bloodied, but once you have it, you can truly kill them. Although being epic-level is probably necessary.

As for 3.5 and under, however, I have No Freaking Idea.

dethkruzer
2011-10-03, 05:16 AM
There was this 3ed, Deities and demigods, I think it was called, which had stat blocks for a huge pile of gods. And while killing them is theoretically possible, they get their divine rank as a bonus to just about everything, some can kill entire nations with little more than a thought.

So to sum it up: the. gods. ARE. TOUGH. They make the tarrasque lokk like a paralyzed bedbug in comparison.

Now if you actually wanted to kill a god, you would need, at the least: really high levels (40-50 would be a good minimum), a party that know what they are doing(no solo shenanigans), and a well thought out plan. That isn't taking into account that fact that most can alter the very Plane they are on at will, and a most lkely guarded by petitioners and high-level outsiders.

TroubleBrewing
2011-10-03, 05:31 AM
All you really need to be on equal footing with the D&D gods is to have a Divine Rank of some kind. I'll defer to other optimizers for a variety of ways to obtain this kind of thing, but rest assured, it's happened.

The gods stat blocks as provided in Deities and Demigods are laughably unoptimized. Killing them would almost be a mercy. Once you obtain that divine rank, it's just a matter of time.

dethkruzer
2011-10-03, 05:57 AM
It's true the optimization level is subpar, but they can still be a terrifying force to mess with, especially with stuff like kord or hextor, because they are always treated as having rolled a maximum in all rolls, a full attacks will hurt unless you really pump that AC.

TroubleBrewing
2011-10-03, 06:08 AM
It's true the optimization level is subpar, but they can still be a terrifying force to mess with, especially with stuff like kord or hextor, because they are always treated as having rolled a maximum in all rolls, a full attacks will hurt unless you really pump that AC.

If you've got a Divine Rank as well, your rolls are maxed too! AC isn't the best avenue of defense here; have a buttload of HP and a significant miss chance. Or just don't get attacked. Archery, hiding, spellcasting, grappling, etc... All of these things prevent you from getting smacked with some kind of weapon.

drakir_nosslin
2011-10-03, 07:27 AM
1: Be a diplomancer
2: Convince all the worshippers of god 1 to worship god 2 (or you, for the lulz)
3: Watch god 1 fade away from the lack of worship
4: ??
5: Profit!

EDIT: A wizard 20 could probably kill most of the gods in the Deities and Demigods book one at a time, a wizard with epic spellcasting could definitely do it.

jindra34
2011-10-03, 07:53 AM
1: Be a diplomancer
2: Convince all the worshippers of god 1 to worship god 2 (or you, for the lulz)
3: Watch god 1 fade away from the lack of worship
4: ??
5: Profit!
At best that would make the god simply a mortal, at worst it would only make them lose 1-2 Divine Ranks. Both cases also are likely to have the god gunning for you before you strip them of all worshippers.


EDIT: A wizard 20 could probably kill most of the gods in the Deities and Demigods book one at a time, a wizard with epic spellcasting could definitely do it.

Not likely because at relatively low Rank they gain the ability to take 10 on everything all the time which with their godly saves renders them immune to silver bullet class spells. And then there are those who have a high enough rank to just auto-save against all spells. And an Epic Spell would most definitely be using chain-gating and thus likely work a grand once.

Emmerask
2011-10-03, 08:21 AM
There was this 3ed, Deities and demigods, I think it was called, which had stat blocks for a huge pile of gods. And while killing them is theoretically possible, they get their divine rank as a bonus to just about everything, some can kill entire nations with little more than a thought.

But wasn´t the stat block just for the deities avatars?

Which then would mean the deities are still unstated, only the "meatbag" they use to interact with mortals to not blow their brains out at first sight has stats and can be destroyed...

ranagrande
2011-10-03, 08:23 AM
I'd go with a variant of what drakir_nosslin suggested:

1. Be a diplomancer.
2. Convince the god to worship you.

Fouredged Sword
2011-10-03, 08:36 AM
Wasn't the wish and the word a pair of builds designed to kill all the gods at level 20?

Something about juggling alignments and high CL blashemy autokills to slay anything with HD<100 or so.

Adamaro
2011-10-03, 08:53 AM
Gods in 3.5 can see the future, days even weeks into the future. So they know what you will intend to do. Its no-win situation.

Lhurgyof
2011-10-03, 09:59 AM
Dust of sneezing and choking, anyone? :smallamused:

Sgt. Cookie
2011-10-03, 10:20 AM
Here are some instructions given to me. (On a different forum, about a different game, modified to DnD) Perhaps they may be of use to you.

How to kill damn near anything:
Step 1: Stab it.
Step 2: Stab it again.
Step 3: Repeat steps 1 and 2 until dead.
Step 4: Loot everything of value.

Orran
2011-10-03, 10:34 AM
Gods in 3.5 can see the future, days even weeks into the future. So they know what you will intend to do. Its no-win situation.

Yeah, when people talk about killing gods this is the bit they neglect to mention. Right when they start their plan, 10 weeks before they've even gathered all the plans and materials, curbstomp. Most abilities in the deities and demigods book can be blocked by deities with a higher divine rank, but good luck becoming one or getting one on your side.

Interestingly, about the wish and the word, the wish as I recall was just a 20th level wizard (may have had prestige classes, not really relevant though.) Who used the wish spell to wish for items of wishes, questionable use of the rules aside, that's pretty cheap, and also inferior to any deity who has alter reality. The word was a build using bloodlines to pump the CL of 'Holy Word' type spells and autokill anything with hitdice, more imaginative and more deadly, but still not really the kind of thing to take down a deity.

tyckspoon
2011-10-03, 10:49 AM
Mechanically? Searing Spell Orbs of Fire; deities are not naturally fire immune, and the benefits of divine rank don't include an unhittably high AC (they get Divine Rank + Cha mod as touch-relevant bonuses. True Strike and go, or Limited Wish for an auto-hit if you really have to.) A Mailman build can do it pretty easy; it's just a matter of target selection. Pick on a lesser god with weak Salient ability selections and blow him up. If the metaphysics of the setting let you steal divinity by slaying a god, you are now divine yourself and in a much better position to attempt more powerful targets.

More powerful gods.. require a lot more planning. But your DR 1-5 gods of, say, personal combat or home/harvest/other non-fighting things? They're not that much worse to deal with than any other Epic enemy or even the nastier and better-designed high-CR non-Epic fights.

Anderlith
2011-10-03, 10:49 AM
Be a Wizard & a Cleric of 20 Also half a dozen PrC's lure them to Sigil where they are weaker. Also you can become your own god, all you need are believers, so start evangelizing!(It wouldn't be a half bad PrC)

drakir_nosslin
2011-10-03, 12:48 PM
Yeah, when people talk about killing gods this is the bit they neglect to mention. Right when they start their plan, 10 weeks before they've even gathered all the plans and materials, curbstomp. Most abilities in the deities and demigods book can be blocked by deities with a higher divine rank, but good luck becoming one or getting one on your side.

Nope.


Portfolio Sense
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

That's all I could find in the SRD about gods seeing into the future. I might have missed something though.
However, if this is it, then you can feel pretty safe when going up against Intermediate Deities, just make sure that you decide very suddenly and very randomly that god x needs to die. That gives it precisely 1 round of warning.

Emmerask
2011-10-03, 12:56 PM
If they could not, then most a lot of the divination school magic would be pointless ^^

Mark Hall
2011-10-03, 12:59 PM
1: Be a diplomancer
2: Convince all the worshippers of god 1 to worship god 2 (or you, for the lulz)
3: Watch god 1 fade away from the lack of worship
4: ??
5: Profit!

EDIT: A wizard 20 could probably kill most of the gods in the Deities and Demigods book one at a time, a wizard with epic spellcasting could definitely do it.

A couple problems with that.

A) No one worshiping them doesn't make them dead... just not a god.

B) Depending on the God, getting everyone is going to be a rough job. Sure, you may severely reduce them on a single Prime world... but then there's all the OTHER Prime worlds that the God may be worshiped on. And his vast number of petitioners in his own domain. Want to wipe out Torm (LG Faerunian deity of Duty)? Relatively easy... his followers are primarily on one world, plus a few rocks out in Wildspace. Want to wipe out Tyr (LG deity of law)? Well, sure, you may kill everyone on Faerun, but the Norse pantheon, from which he comes, is worshiped on many Prime worlds... and picking a fight with him is probably going to pick a fight with a number of other deities that he's involved in pantheons with (including the aforementioned Torm and their friend Ilmater). And that doesn't count the places where he's known by another name, but is still the same deity.

drakir_nosslin
2011-10-03, 12:59 PM
If they could not, then most a lot of the divination school magic would be pointless ^^

I didn't say that the rules should make sense, I said that gods are relatively easy to kill in D&D 3.5.

EDIT:
A couple problems with that.

A) No one worshiping them doesn't make them dead... just not a god.

B) *snip*

A) After which a wizard 20 shouldn't have too much trouble against many of them (not all, but many, they are terribly unoptimized)

B) I agree, the diplomancer thing might not work on all gods, but it will probably work on quite a few. Also, a diplomancer shouldn't have too much trouble convincing a standard god not to kill him/her, so there might not be *that* much backup after all.

Jeraa
2011-10-03, 01:01 PM
But wasn´t the stat block just for the deities avatars?

Which then would mean the deities are still unstated, only the "meatbag" they use to interact with mortals to not blow their brains out at first sight has stats and can be destroyed...

Unfortunately no. Those were supposed to be the gods themselves. (There was even a divine power that gave them avatars, and avatars usually don't have avatars as well, leaning to more evidence that those were supposed to be the real gods.)


Not likely because at relatively low Rank they gain the ability to take 10 on everything all the time which with their godly saves renders them immune to silver bullet class spells. And then there are those who have a high enough rank to just auto-save against all spells. And an Epic Spell would most definitely be using chain-gating and thus likely work a grand once.

Gods don't auto-succeed on anything. They still have to roll the dice. They just ignore the number and add +20 to their modifiers. Gods can still fail. But while they don't auto-succeed (unless the die come up a 20 as usual), they can't auto-fail on a natural 1 with attack rolls and saves.


Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.

GungHo
2011-10-03, 01:12 PM
I came to another Interesting fellow named Kasus, a Netherese Arcanist who created a spell so powerful that it actually killed a God (By accident and with drastic results of course...)
Ok, so feel like a dork for pointing this out... Karsus didn't kill Mystryl. Mystryl killed herself to stop Karus' Avatar, because the method of his apotheosis would have destroyed all magic.

Gods have died in FR, but it''s generally "god-on-god crime". I can only think of a couple of instances where a mortal did it. There was Cyric killing Bhaal (he had the avatar of Mask in a sword, though) during the Time of Troubles, when the gods were made mortal. And there was Halisstra beheading Qiule Velorn when Eilistraee put her avatar in Qiule with a special sword (made by Elistraee) that could kill gods. Seveltarm was also killed by the same sword, but I want to say that happened in the Abyss itself.


But wasn´t the stat block just for the deities avatars?

Which then would mean the deities are still unstated, only the "meatbag" they use to interact with mortals to not blow their brains out at first sight has stats and can be destroyed...
Yeah, it was just for their avatar, if encountered on the Material Plane. The closest they ever got to giving you a character in D&D that was capable of actually killing a god outright was in the Immortals' box set.

There were some "relative" power levels provided in the Forgotten Realms Faith & Avatar's book, I believe, which outlayed what powers different levels of gods had (from demi all the way to greater)... but none of them really said anything about "if you're level 20 and have 10 levels of Epic you're in the god-killing club"

drakir_nosslin
2011-10-03, 01:48 PM
Yeah, it was just for their avatar, if encountered on the Material Plane. The closest they ever got to giving you a character in D&D that was capable of actually killing a god outright was in the Immortals' box set.

Uh, do you mind sourcing that, because I'm sitting here with Deities & Demigods right now and I can't find where it says the stats are for avatars.

Jeraa
2011-10-03, 01:58 PM
Uh, do you mind sourcing that, because I'm sitting here with Deities & Demigods right now and I can't find where it says the stats are for avatars.

Thats because it isn't there. Those are the gods. All the abilities say "the deity", not "the avatar", as well as there being an ability to give the god an avatar, point to those being the actual gods. Faiths and Pantheons for Forgotten Realms works the same. Those are the gods, not their avatars.

(The stats for the gods being as weak as they are is what make many people say that the avatars are stated, not the gods. The books disagree though.)

Bladesinger
2011-10-03, 02:06 PM
Uh, do you mind sourcing that, because I'm sitting here with Deities & Demigods right now and I can't find where it says the stats are for avatars.

Yeah. I was under the impression that there were stats for the deities and then for their avatars, as well. For example, there are stats for Bahamut, and then for Bahamut's avatar.


Avatar of Bahamut: As Bahamut, except divine rank 5.
It then goes on to give stats for the avatar that differ from the actual God's stats. Most, if not all, of the gods described in the book have this entry.

GungHo
2011-10-03, 02:09 PM
Thats because it isn't there. Those are the gods. All the abilities say "the deity", not "the avatar", as well as there being an ability to give the god an avatar, point to those being the actual gods. Faiths and Pantheons for Forgotten Realms works the same. Those are the gods, not their avatars.

(The stats for the gods being as weak as they are is what make many people say that the avatars are stated, not the gods. The books disagree though.)
I'm wondering if I was thinking of 2E? I could have sworn I've read that somewhere (and, no, I don't go onto WotC's forums, so it's not from there). I'm not disputing that I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm that befuddled.

Mark Hall
2011-10-03, 02:32 PM
A) After which a wizard 20 shouldn't have too much trouble against many of them (not all, but many, they are terribly unoptimized)

Xykon said it best. "You know what power is? Power. Just power."

At a certain point, it doesn't matter how much you're optimized, when you're swinging 30 levels of cleric and a number of feat slots that say "as the DM determines"

gkathellar
2011-10-03, 02:51 PM
Xykon said it best. "You know what power is? Power. Just power."

At a certain point, it doesn't matter how much you're optimized, when you're swinging 30 levels of cleric and a number of feat slots that say "as the DM determines"

The problem here is that optimization isn't just about acquiring a wide variety of stupid tricks — it's about acquiring power. And a lot of gods, by virtue of their lack of optimization, don't have nearly as much power to swing around as you're implying.


I just want it to be laid down once and for all. Can you kill a god?

Take their spellbook. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God)

Jeraa
2011-10-03, 03:14 PM
I just want it to be laid down once and for all. Can you kill a god? (No Divine Ranks. This is for just a regular NON-DEIFIED Creature)

So just to reiterate. Yes, you can kill a god. No, divine ranks are not required to do so. (Though divine ranks are required to keep some of them dead, as some gods have Rejuvenation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#rejuvenation). )And non-gods must be careful, as some gods can kill any mortal they desire because of Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath).

Doorhandle
2011-10-03, 07:54 PM
Here are some instructions given to me. (On a different forum, about a different game, modified to DnD) Perhaps they may be of use to you.

How to kill damn near anything:
Step 1: Stab it.
Step 2: Stab it again.
Step 3: Repeat steps 1 and 2 until dead.
Step 4: Loot everything of value.

I already said that gods are in the segment of anything in which that tactic does not work.

Wings of Peace
2011-10-03, 08:12 PM
I just want it to be laid down once and for all. Can you kill a god?
(No Divine Ranks. This is for just a regular NON-DEIFIED Creature)

Yes. A level 20 character could do it even. The biggest hurdle is their portfolio sense but their ARE ways around that. They're just complicated. Deities & Demigods stats many of the gods and I believe Faiths and Pantheons stats a few more. As long as it has a stat block it can with certainty be killed.

Alleran
2011-10-04, 12:08 AM
Yes. A level 20 character could do it even. The biggest hurdle is their portfolio sense but their ARE ways around that. They're just complicated. Deities & Demigods stats many of the gods and I believe Faiths and Pantheons stats a few more. As long as it has a stat block it can with certainty be killed.
The easiest gods to kill are the DvR1-5 ones, or the ones without Alter Reality, Life & Death, and so on and so forth. I suppose in theory a Tainted Scholar Incantatrix Beholder Mage could just overpower such deities with raw power (and save DCs so high that the god can only pass on a nat 20). But that's somewhat cheesy.

Out of interest for the purposes of picking a god that isn't supercharged, how about the weakest statted god? Imhotep, I think it is - the 20th level Expert DvR 1 demigod from Deities and Demigods. What's the earliest level you could expect to take him on (either singularly or in a group) and have a solid chance of winning?

tyckspoon
2011-10-04, 12:20 AM
Out of interest for the purposes of picking a god that isn't supercharged, how about the weakest statted god? Imhotep, I think it is - the 20th level Expert DvR 1 demigod from Deities and Demigods. What's the earliest level you could expect to take him on (either singularly or in a group) and have a solid chance of winning?

No real ranged attacking ability, low stats (AC 26, 260 HP)? 11, maybe, with a good charging build or a good party. Soloable by almost any higher-op 20.

Wings of Peace
2011-10-04, 12:20 AM
The easiest gods to kill are the DvR1-5 ones, or the ones without Alter Reality, Life & Death, and so on and so forth. I suppose in theory a Tainted Scholar Incantatrix Beholder Mage could just overpower such deities with raw power (and save DCs so high that the god can only pass on a nat 20). But that's somewhat cheesy.

Out of interest for the purposes of picking a god that isn't supercharged, how about the weakest statted god? Imhotep, I think it is - the 20th level Expert DvR 1 demigod from Deities and Demigods. What's the earliest level you could expect to take him on (either singularly or in a group) and have a solid chance of winning?

DCs aren't that important when we can just stack metamagics on no save spells.

As for the actual act of god slaying, it depends on what interpretation of portfolio sense we use. If it's the interpretation that gods are like managers and their death doesn't actually impact the portfolio itself then it's fairly easy. You just surprise the god with scry and die tactics.

If we use the second interpretation in which deities are always aware when something that threatens them is coming we have to get creative and there are two ways to do this. The first way is by traveling back in time and slaying the deity before they're a deity or preventing whatever event led to their godhood. The second way would be with a two phase assault in which both phases can kill the deity but phase 2 only kills the deity if phase 1 fails. The deity shouldn't be able to sense phase 2 because it will only trigger if phase 1 fails and until the deity prevents phase 1 it has no way of knowing if phase 2 is going to happen or not.

Katana_Geldar
2011-10-04, 06:16 AM
What about Big T? Tharizdun? My 4e players want to kill him but I have been reading on him in Deities and Demigods.

Adamaro
2011-10-04, 06:26 AM
For all those of poor sight:
Gods in 3.5 can see the future, days even weeks into the future. So they know what you will intend to do. Its no-win situation.

Enjoy your PC becoming a bloodstain even BEFORE your PC comes up with an idea to kill a god. Or just Mindraped.

Wings of Peace
2011-10-04, 06:41 AM
For all those of poor sight:
Gods in 3.5 can see the future, days even weeks into the future. So they know what you will intend to do. Its no-win situation.

Enjoy your PC becoming a bloodstain even BEFORE your PC comes up with an idea to kill a god. Or just Mindraped.

Nobody has ignored that. You've just failed to understand our explanations of how that can be sidestepped.

Adamaro
2011-10-04, 06:46 AM
@Wings of Peace
This factor was never covered in this thread. As far as it goes for 3.5. 4E may be something else.

Wings of Peace
2011-10-04, 06:48 AM
@Wings of Peace
This factor was never covered in this thread. As far as it goes for 3.5. 4E may be something else.

Scroll up on this page to my post regarding portfolio sense.

Eldan
2011-10-04, 06:49 AM
@Wings of Peace
This factor was never covered in this thread. As far as it goes for 3.5. 4E may be something else.

It was mentioned about a dozen times.
Gods can't just see into the future. They are noticed of things relating to their portfolio. They don't know details about those events.

Most gods would not know about a battle focused on them. Even gods of war, or death, or struggle would probably only find out that a major battle would happen, as well as when and where. They would probably show up buffed but, depending on how causality works in your games, they probably couldn't avoid it. And they wouldn't know what they are fighting.

Adamaro
2011-10-04, 07:04 AM
In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
This + some decent scrying should seal the deal for deicidial PCs.

Wings of Peace
2011-10-04, 07:08 AM
This + some decent scrying should seal the deal for deicidial PCs.

Only if they're impatient and dumb. Sure it would take care of a Fighter. But a Wizard with high knowledge ranks is going to know that if he's going to commit deicide his plan is going to need to either take place far in the future or far in the past. For a level 20 Wizard the amount of time actually matters very little because he can just use Teleport Through Time to launch his attack at a time beyond what the deity is capable of sensing.

Adamaro
2011-10-04, 07:34 AM
Only if they're impatient and dumb. Sure it would take care of a Fighter. But a Wizard with high knowledge ranks is going to know that if he's going to commit deicide his plan is going to need to either take place far in the future or far in the past. For a level 20 Wizard the amount of time actually matters very little because he can just use Teleport Through Time to launch his attack at a time beyond what the deity is capable of sensing.

True. But god can do the same with a bit of an "edge". Problem is that god figures stuff out days or weeks before batman does anything. Heck, even a single round is enough for a god to spam actions, pinpoint attackers birthplace and just stab the heck out of an attacker when he is till just 1/2HD baby.

Wings of Peace
2011-10-04, 07:57 AM
True. But god can do the same with a bit of an "edge". Problem is that god figures stuff out days or weeks before batman does anything. Heck, even a single round is enough for a god to spam actions, pinpoint attackers birthplace and just stab the heck out of an attacker when he is till just 1/2HD baby.

You're missing my point though (or just disagreeing with reasons I'm failing to comprehend at present). The god's aren't omniscient. They have a limit on how far backwards or forward they can see, even without magic the only thing needed to bypass that is patience and knowledge. Gathering knowledge and waiting don't affect their portfolio. Sure once we're launching the attack they'll sense they're under attack, but by then if we've done our homework and properly optimized our Zanatos Gambits (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) it will be too late. That's the real advantage of the spell Teleport Through Time, we eliminate the delay between preparation and when we attack that would normally allow the deity to sense that something is coming.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the deity is weak. I'm more so arguing that killing a god is just rocket tag with a more complex planning phase to circumvent their informational advantage.

Adamaro
2011-10-04, 08:37 AM
They have a limit on how far backwards or forward they can see, even without magic the only thing needed to bypass that is patience and knowledge.

Look at an underlined text. No patience or knowledge will help you if a god knows that in five days you are teleporting in his demiplane to kill him.


Sure once we're launching the attack they'll sense they're under attack
Nope. They will know about attack days before it happens. (with sufficient foresight.)



That's the real advantage of the spell Teleport Through Time, we eliminate the delay between preparation and when we attack that would normally allow the deity to sense that something is coming.
I disagree with this in its very core.

It does not matter if you go back in time a thousand years to plot a hundred. If god sees a week into the future, he will know that 168 hours from now something is coming. And then optimized scrying & stuff pops up. Do not be surprized if you are teleported right a mob of abominations.

Wings of Peace
2011-10-04, 09:15 AM
It does not matter if you go back in time a thousand years to plot a hundred. If god sees a week into the future, he will know that 168 hours from now something is coming. And then optimized scrying & stuff pops up. Do not be surprized if you are teleported right a mob of abominations.

You're underestimating how useful time travel actually is. Teleporting to the distant past gives us the advantage of being safe from preemptive strikes on the part of the deity (because we don't exist, we're somewhere far in the past). Similarly, the deity can't scry us because we won't exist until the moment of our attack. Any chance the deity had to use scry and die tactics was during our research phase at which time we were flying below the radar of Portfolio Sense.



Nope. They will know about attack days before it happens. (with sufficient foresight.)

Which is why whatever our hypothetical attack plan is, it has to happen in two phases (we'll refer to as A and B) both of which have to be capable of killing the deity but with phase B being contingent on the failure of phase A. Portfolio Sense will tell the deity about phase A because that phase is going to happen. However, because phase B is contingent on the failure of phase A Portfolio Sense won't be able to predict Phase B because the timeline in which phase B happens won't exist until the deity actively saves itself from phase A (with the alternative being phase A doesn't fail for whatever reason in which case we get lunch).

Emmerask
2011-10-04, 09:17 AM
I disagree with this in its very core.

It does not matter if you go back in time a thousand years to plot a hundred. If god sees a week into the future, he will know that 168 hours from now something is coming. And then optimized scrying & stuff pops up. Do not be surprized if you are teleported right a mob of abominations.

Agreed, because the only important thing is the "I will be attacked xy hours from now", it does not matter where or when you are beforehand or what setup you are using to determine the attack time, because the outcome of the setup has already been determined.

Emmerask
2011-10-04, 09:22 AM
Which is why whatever our hypothetical attack plan is, it has to happen in two phases (we'll refer to as A and B) both of which have to be capable of killing the deity but with phase B being contingent on the failure of phase A. Portfolio Sense will tell the deity about phase A because that phase is going to happen. However, because phase B is contingent on the failure of phase A Portfolio Sense won't be able to predict Phase B because the timeline in which phase B happens won't exist until the deity actively saves itself from phase A (with the alternative being phase A doesn't fail for whatever reason in which case we get lunch).

Nope that is where you are wrong, if we are talking about seeing the future, we are also talking about a deterministic universe...
Which means that he can see phase B and take his countermeasures because that timeline does exist automatically when he found a way to countermeasure phase A (even if he did not yet actively countermeasure it)...

ie:
The god found a way to countermeasure A, therefore it will be countermeasured in the future, therefore phase B will happen and he can see what it is with his ability to look in the future...

Which also brings another quite handy thing that looking into the future gets you, you can examine all probable outcomes by just thinking about action you can take and watch the reaction that can become...

Adamaro
2011-10-04, 12:08 PM
Thank you, Emmerask. 10 internets for you :smallsmile:

Demonic_Spoon
2011-10-04, 12:48 PM
This is all assuming the portfolio sense covers a attempt on the life of the god. Which it shouldn't unless the portfolio is death/assassination/murder/godslaying.

Emmerask
2011-10-04, 12:55 PM
but wouldn´t all attempts to end the existence of the god automatically trigger the portfolio sense?

For example we have a good of jammed drawers, if he is dead he can no longer jam drawers and annoy the populus, therefore the portfolio sense would trigger...

The only thing I could see working would be to create a paradoxon, ie if the god takes action against phase A phase A automatically changes to something different...
but then again such things should not exist in an deterministic universe

drakir_nosslin
2011-10-04, 12:55 PM
Nope that is where you are wrong, if we are talking about seeing the future, we are also talking about a deterministic universe...


Not at all, there's nothing that says that. It's possible that the gods see several different futures, or the future as it will be if people continue on their current path (i.e don't change their mind about any decisions). It's entirely possible that the future that gods see change every millisecond.

Besides, this is only relevant when considering battling a greater deity.

Demonic_Spoon
2011-10-04, 01:01 PM
but wouldn´t all attempts to end the existence of the god automatically trigger the portfolio sense?

For example we have a good of jammed drawers, if he is dead he can no longer jam drawers and annoy the populus, therefore the portfolio sense would trigger...

The only thing I could see working would be to create a paradoxon, ie if the god takes action against phase A phase A automatically changes to something different...
but then again such things should not exist in an deterministic universe

Let's take a god of birth as a example. Sure the god could encourage births and make them easier if his followers ask him to etc., but the births would still happen with little impact if the god were to die. Of course this depends on how much gods are part of the natural working of things in a particular setting.

Emmerask
2011-10-04, 01:01 PM
Not at all, there's nothing that says that. It's possible that the gods see several different futures, or the future as it will be if people continue on their current path (i.e don't change their mind about any decisions). It's entirely possible that the future that gods see change every millisecond.

While I think that this is the more reasonable way to deal with a universe, wouldn´t that pretty much nullify all Divination magic (in regard to future events) ?

Every single answer regarding the future would in that case be maybe, because even a 1:10^10^10^10 event has a probability > 0

drakir_nosslin
2011-10-04, 01:03 PM
While I think that this is the more reasonable way to deal with a universe, wouldn´t that pretty much nullify all Divination magic (in regard to future events) ?

Every single answer regarding the future would in that case be maybe, because even a 1:10^10^10^10 event has a probability > 0

And in a deterministic universe scrying and the ability to see into the future wouldn't matter because the future is already set so no matter what the god see it cannot do anything to change it.

SoC175
2011-10-04, 02:25 PM
And there was Halisstra beheading Qiule Velorn when Eilistraee put her avatar in Qiule with a special sword (made by Elistraee) that could kill gods. Seveltarm was also killed by the same sword, but I want to say that happened in the Abyss itself. More precisely they died because they agreed to tie their essence to a divine boardgame they were playing with some fellow deities. Their demise at the hands of mortals were but manifestations of their game piece being taken at the board. Selvetarm was standing with the other and saying "ah dred" after he was decapitated and then only vanished after his piece was taken from the board.

Yeah, it was just for their avatar, if encountered on the Material Plane. No, the 3x stats were for the deities themselves

I'm wondering if I was thinking of 2E? Yes, you were.

What about Big T? Tharizdun? My 4e players want to kill him but I have been reading on him in Deities and Demigods. For all his great PR, he's actually just an intermediate deity

For all those of poor sight:
Gods in 3.5 can see the future, days even weeks into the future. So they know what you will intend to do. Its no-win situation.

Enjoy your PC becoming a bloodstain even BEFORE your PC comes up with an idea to kill a god. Or just Mindraped. Only greater deities can do that. All other divine stratas do not have that ability

For a level 20 Wizard the amount of time actually matters very little because he can just use Teleport Through Time to launch his attack at a time beyond what the deity is capable of sensing.Except that this doesn't work, because the greater deity would have still sensed it normally X weeks in advance of the teleport through time's arrival point.

This is all assuming the portfolio sense covers a attempt on the life of the god. Which it shouldn't unless the portfolio is death/assassination/murder/godslaying. Even if deities are only seen as the managers of their portfolio, a change in management is a big thing effecting the portfolio

Let's take a god of birth as a example. Sure the god could encourage births and make them easier if his followers ask him to etc., but the births would still happen with little impact if the god were to die. Of course this depends on how much gods are part of the natural working of things in a particular setting. Like you said: Depends on the setting. In the FR during the interregnum between two deities of death, nothing could die. In core 4e after killing Tiamat greed and envy are banished from the world.

Emmerask
2011-10-04, 02:46 PM
Only greater deities can do that. All other divine stratas do not have that ability

But since both augury and divination work for a cleric (who can have normal deities as their god) they must have some way to know the future.

Maybe they can ask Ao or whatever greater deity is their god what will happen and then tell that to their clerics.. but then why would ao not do the same for the deity himself...

Or d&d is not internally consistent (shocking ^^) which would then mean that in fact they do have the ability to see the future because phb takes precedence over deities & demigods ^^

Calanon
2011-10-04, 03:50 PM
Not at all, there's nothing that says that. It's possible that the gods see several different futures, or the future as it will be if people continue on their current path (i.e don't change their mind about any decisions). It's entirely possible that the future that gods see change every millisecond.

Wouldn't that mean that un-naturally deified Gods (I.e. Gods not innately born with Divinity in them) would go insane from the feedback of entire timelines changing seeing so many things at once (the gods own death) would make it go insane (This is of course me using Horror Rules from Heroes of Horror)

So that means Imhotep and most of the D&D pantheon would go insane (as the insanity spell :smalltongue:)

Back on topic: I didn't ask for all the million ways for a god to prevent its own death or a full story about how to kill one I just wanted to know if a God is kill-able and how...

Now let me propose an idea :smallsmile: The surest way to kill a god is with another god or something that annihilate an entire plane with almost no effort (Something I'm sure only a True god could do) recently I've read a source book called Elder Evil and found something that might just be able to kill a god. Something known as The Atropus. Just think Galactus if he somehow had a baby with Ego the Living Planet.

The Atropus is the size of an entire planet. The only way to stop it is by letting it kill your entire planet... So a God could not defeat the Atropus and its only resort would be to flee... as to where I will declare that a victory in and of itself.

SoC175
2011-10-04, 04:15 PM
The Atropus is the size of an entire planet. A small moon actually. BTW, in 2e greater deities were able to manifest as large as planets.

The only way to stop it is by letting it kill your entire planet... Actually no, non-epic characters are supposed to go up there and beat up it's manifestation (which almost every deity could beat up just by accidently sneezing in it's direction) so badly that it flees back into the emptiness of space as fast as it can fly

4e actually also has a planet sized far realm monstrosity that is beatable by epic characters and also weaker than the deities

Wulfram
2011-10-04, 04:42 PM
Killing a God generally requires Plot

Doorhandle
2011-10-04, 05:09 PM
Should we stop arguing about exactly how the gods can see the future?

If you're at the point were you can fight one, you're at the point were you can escape their deathtraps, and probably have true resurrection on contingency, and this applies double at the more epic levels.

Calanon
2011-10-04, 06:11 PM
A small moon actually. BTW, in 2e greater deities were able to manifest as large as planets.
Actually no, non-epic characters are supposed to go up there and beat up it's manifestation (which almost every deity could beat up just by accidently sneezing in it's direction) so badly that it flees back into the emptiness of space as fast as it can fly

4e actually also has a planet sized far realm monstrosity that is beatable by epic characters and also weaker than the deities

Really? well... back to the drawing board... :smallfrown:

But how would they find the aspect? on a small moon (set up planet side shielding, add a few fish people, a light saber and some traps and your game is golden :smallwink:) (Its also unscry-able if I'm reading Anathematic Secrecy correction) so how would the gods know where it would be? the moonlet would eventually just do its work and with the Gods on the moon >_>

hangedman1984
2011-10-04, 11:54 PM
Killing a God generally requires Plot

quoted for so much truth

Adamaro
2011-10-05, 03:33 AM
I didn't ask for all the million ways for a god to prevent its own death or a full story about how to kill one I just wanted to know if a God is kill-able and how...


Well does it not make sense that every god wants to prevent its own death? And his death will affect his portfolio, so it will surely see this coming.

As for things not going awry if god dies ... Depends on a setting, but I think there should something should happen. Something prety darn bad things.

Calanon
2011-10-05, 04:05 AM
Well does it not make sense that every god wants to prevent its own death? And his death will affect his portfolio, so it will surely see this coming.

As for things not going awry if god dies ... Depends on a setting, but I think there should something should happen. Something prety darn bad things.

Alright so lets just assume that the God is pretty much the cosmic maintenance man for there portfolio and there death wouldn't very well effect it much (except for example they were a weather god (its always raining or snowing or sunny in a section of the world) or a god of death (death stops happening) or a fertility god (need i say anything?) you know those minor things that don't totally effect the flow of the universe :smalltongue:)

If I wanted to kill say Heironeous (what the **** does the "Daring" portfolio entale?) would it be possible?

I should probably mention that greater deities aren't allowed for one specific reason. Divine Splendor (its an automatic kill with NO SAVE!)

Adamaro
2011-10-05, 06:18 AM
Attempt at killing gods in 3.5 is much like lvl 20 batman discussion. So I guess it could be done. Here's another funny ability a god can take:


Supreme Initiative

This is an extraordinary ability.
Prerequisites

Dex 29, Improved Initiative.
Benefit

The deity goes first in the initiative order, no matter what its initiative result is or what initiative result anyone else in an encounter or battle has.

This + celerity(I go first) + Foresight(I am never flatfooted) = Attacker crushed like a bug. I'd expect AT LEAST this from a creature with divine INT and WIS stats.

Demonic_Spoon
2011-10-05, 06:43 AM
Shapechange into a dire tortoise to counter that?

Alleran
2011-10-05, 07:21 AM
Shapechange into a dire tortoise to counter that?
Dire Tortoise always has a surprise round.

The deity always goes first in Initiative order, and if it has Alter Reality can use the form of a Dire Tortoise anyway through emulation of Shapechange.

Jeraa
2011-10-05, 10:06 AM
Instead of just suggesting random things and countering with random god abilities that the deity may or may not have, why not just choose a specific god and go from there? The tactics needed to kill a god would be specific to that god anyway. What works for one may not work against another.

As for the portfolio sense, why would the death of the god affect the portfolio? There are several death gods in core, and several magic gods. If one dies, there are still more. In Forgotten Realms, the death of a god may have more impact on the portfolio as each portfolio is supposed to be limited to a single god in the pantheon, but not likely. And definitely not with the core deities.

Or do you believe there were no secrets or intrigue in the world before Vecna ascended? No common sense, honesty, or discipline until St. Cuthbert ascended to godhood?

Emmerask
2011-10-05, 10:44 AM
Sure it entirely depends on the setting, so a yes or no answer is not possible...

In FR the death of a god can even prevent anyone from dying, so there even the death of a god of jammed drawers would have a huge impact (no drawers would ever jam anymore).

Even if we instantly have a different god taking over the portfolio if the gods are individuals then there is a good chance that this god will do things differently therefore effecting a lot of people and triggering the portfolio sense.

In a setting where the gods are less of an individual however and the new god would do whatever he does the same as the previous one there would be no trigger...


So what we really need to establish is
a) who is the god to be killed
b) setting

NichG
2011-10-05, 12:31 PM
Method 1: Arrange a situation where the god's suicide serves its greater cause. Even with portfolio sense/etc, they'll just know that they will choose to die in 2 weeks for some reason.

Method 2: The power of a deity is always below the TO ceiling because it must be run by a DM who does not have the out of character ability to see all possible futures, and probably does not have an Int and Wis in the 30-50 range. As such, regardless of the theoretical limit 'I expect etc etc from this being', in practice they will be much easier to kill. Especially if they're wedded to their theme and therefore do not seek magical buffing.

That is to day, don't go after the ones with the optimal powers. Go after the equivalent of the truenamers and fighters of the pantheon.

Douglas
2011-10-05, 01:16 PM
The way to beat portfolio sense that I would use goes something like this:
1) The target god will know that you are coming, and when, and where, and he will therefore be fully prepared for you when you arrive.
2) Thus, in order to win you must be able to defeat the god despite his preparations.
3) Given that you have the capability to defeat the god despite his own best preparations, all that remains is making sure that you maintain that capability at all times that the deity might choose to try a preemptive strike.
4) Portfolio Sense will notify the deity of the battle, but not necessarily your planning.
5) Solution: Start your planning farther in advance than the target god's portfolio sense can see, and maintain god-battle readiness at all times from then until the attack.

Day 1: Players: Hey guys, let's kill <deity>!
Day 2: Players: Ok, we're ready, we can fight him and win any time now...
Day 3: Deity: Huh? Someone will attack me in <time interval>? Hmm, better see who it is...
Possible outcome 1: Deity attacks players, players fight back and win.
Possible outcome 2: Deity does not attack players, and after the designated waiting period the players conduct their predicted strike and win.

There is, of course, the hurdle of being powerful enough to beat a fully buffed and prepared god at an instant's notice at any time in a period lasting weeks or months, but once you've got that all you need is a waiting period.

Tyndmyr
2011-10-05, 01:23 PM
Yeah, when people talk about killing gods this is the bit they neglect to mention. Right when they start their plan, 10 weeks before they've even gathered all the plans and materials, curbstomp. Most abilities in the deities and demigods book can be blocked by deities with a higher divine rank, but good luck becoming one or getting one on your side.

Seriously, if you're a high level wizard, you've been using Mind Blank ever since you got it. So, this is not a big deal.

Your only plan on getting mind blank is "Don't plan to take down any gods for at least ten weeks".

I feel like Celerity/maximized Time Stop/Maw of Chaos(repeat this step as needed) should do the job. No save, untargetted force damage in huge numbers fixes almost everything.

If you need to survive the god attacking(though I favor never giving them a chance), utilize a wand of wings of cover and luck feats. Specifically, the one that lets you not die 1/day, and it's prereqs. This doesn't cover every form of incapacitation, but it covers the vast, vast majority.

Calanon
2011-10-05, 03:47 PM
Instead of just suggesting random things and countering with random god abilities that the deity may or may not have, why not just choose a specific god and go from there? The tactics needed to kill a god would be specific to that god anyway. What works for one may not work against another.

I suggested Heironious for multiple reasons
1. I'm curious what the Daring portfolio entails
2. He's a Paladin and its always funny to watch those die
3. Meh I don't have a 3rd reason...


As for the portfolio sense, why would the death of the god affect the portfolio?

They would know that there portolios would change hand or something like that (What I'm getting from everyone so far)


There are several death gods in core, and several magic gods. If one dies, there are still more. In Forgotten Realms, the death of a god may have more impact on the portfolio as each portfolio is supposed to be limited to a single god in the pantheon, but not likely. And definitely not with the core deities.

Would you really like Boccob (The deity with the least creative name EVER!) as the god of Secrets (Vecna) or the god of Undeath (We Jas)? I personally wouldn't >_> Boccob is the most apathetic god of them all "Oh let me sit in my work shop making magical items until the end of time" but eh our randomly generated magical items better come from somewhere...


Do you believe there were no secrets or intrigue in the world before Vecna ascended? No common sense, honesty, or discipline until St. Cuthbert ascended to godhood?

Yes, I SERIOUSLY believe knowledge was freely trade until Vecna came around and that people were wild and savage creatures until St. Cuthbert OH and that there was no FRIKEN SUN! until Pelor came around... by now you should probably be able to tell that I am talking sarcastically and totally agree with you on this :smalltongue:

OT: The deity were using as our example is Heironious (or Lolth which ever you can figure out to kill first is fine)

Your resources are any source book you can access (No, not Dragon Magizine... but Dragon Compendium is fine) it can be with help but not plot related (i.e. you can summon an Elder Evil "god" or a full party of 6 but the DM can't just plot that you killed the god)

Just want to answer an age old question "How do you kill a god?"

I'm also ruling that portfolio sense only pertains to something that would directly effect said portfolio (like for a God of Death they would stop sensing the end of living creatures or a Fertility gods sense going numb)

Drewski
2011-10-05, 09:57 PM
Steps to killing a god.
1. Lure target god to Sigil.
2. Introduce god to the Lady of Pain.
3. ??????
4. Profit!

dethkruzer
2011-10-06, 04:08 AM
Steps to killing a god.
1. Lure target god to Sigil.
2. Introduce god to the Lady of Pain.
3. ??????
4. Profit!

Wouldn't you need to know where the lady o pain is to begin with? If I understand correctly then her mere presence can be... unhealthy.

Alleran
2011-10-06, 05:07 AM
Wouldn't you need to know where the lady o pain is to begin with?
Sigil.

[Obligatory sentence to justify character limits.]

Douglas
2011-10-06, 10:31 AM
As I understand it, once the god is in Sigil the Lady will take care of introductions herself. Also as I understand it, getting the god there in the first place would be quite a trick on its own even if you had the god's enthusiastic cooperation.

Tyndmyr
2011-10-06, 10:46 AM
As I understand it, once the god is in Sigil the Lady will take care of introductions herself. Also as I understand it, getting the god there in the first place would be quite a trick on its own even if you had the god's enthusiastic cooperation.

Which, incidentally, gives you yet another option for a safe place to plot a diety's demise.

Emmerask
2011-10-06, 11:18 AM
If the Lady lets you abuse her territory for that
Which brings us again to the main way to kill a god: plot ^^

Mark Hall
2011-10-06, 11:25 AM
Heck, Conan killed a number of gods with a sword. And the Enterprise did it with phaser banks and photon torpedoes.

TroubleBrewing
2011-10-06, 07:36 PM
Heck, Conan killed a number of gods with a sword.

To be fair, he was also using Iron Heart Surge...

Calanon
2011-10-06, 08:45 PM
Steps to killing a god.
1. Lure target god to Sigil.
2. Introduce god to the Lady of Pain.
3. ??????
4. Profit!

If you don't mind me asking who this Lady of Pain is... OH you don't mind?

"Whom is this Lady of Pain?"
-Calanon

Alleran
2011-10-06, 11:35 PM
If you don't mind me asking who this Lady of Pain is... OH you don't mind?

"Whom is this Lady of Pain?"
-Calanon
Six giant squirrels with a headdress, robe, and ring of levitation and illusions. :smallamused:

Calanon
2011-10-07, 01:29 AM
Six giant squirrels with a headdress, robe, and ring of levitation and illusions. :smallamused:

...I'm curious how that works... but i sense that it is incredible broken...

turkishproverb
2011-10-07, 01:39 AM
Stats or no stats, the easiest way is to use another God.

Haarkla
2011-10-07, 08:23 AM
I just want it to be laid down once and for all. Can you kill a god?

Ask your DM.

Clovis
2011-10-07, 08:50 AM
Deities must needs be killed in their own realm. Otherwise their physical manifestation dissipates and reforms in their realm later. Therefore you have to get into their realm, preferably without the said god noticing, then surprise it and its countless minions and do the deed. Also, you most probably need a divine/cosmic weapon.

The simplest answer is, however: DM fiat. If the plot requires that your lvl 0 commoner kills a god (without hir housecat familiar), so be it.

Mark Hall
2011-10-07, 10:03 AM
If you don't mind me asking who this Lady of Pain is... OH you don't mind?

"Whom is this Lady of Pain?"
-Calanon


Six giant squirrels with a headdress, robe, and ring of levitation and illusions. :smallamused:

Ignore Alleran. :smallbiggrin:

The Lady of Pain is basically the Overdeity of Sigil, though she refuses to be worshiped. She is rumored to have complete control over all that city's portals, and has killed or banished deities who attempted to enter her domain (to say nothing of what she does to mortals who break her rules... which amount to "Don't Worship Me" and "Don't mess with my city or the dabus"), but she's a statless bugbear with which to keep players in line... a manifestation of "Biff the Hurry-up Dragon" or "The Flaming Cow From Outer Space".

Calanon
2011-10-07, 03:27 PM
Ask your DM.

I'm asking this question as a DM.

Emmerask
2011-10-07, 03:40 PM
I'm asking this question as a DM.

The thing is, no one but you can answer it for your campaign, it greatly depends on your interpretation of a lot of abilities (for example if the death of deity effects its portfolio etc...)

So the final answer is maybe ^^

Calanon
2011-10-07, 03:53 PM
The thing is, no one but you can answer it for your campaign, it greatly depends on your interpretation of a lot of abilities (for example if the death of deity effects its portfolio etc...)

So the final answer is maybe ^^

Hmm... that seems like a cop out though. I would prefer a definitive answer as to how a god can die. Otherwise I would just make them all react like Cthulu (Gods don't die... They only sleep...) but due to the rules for a sleeping character (the god can be Coup'd grace and than be REALLY dead)

...Idk I guess I can just make divinity theft possible but only with certain restrictions

like make an Epic spell similar to Kasus Avatar...

tyckspoon
2011-10-07, 03:56 PM
I'm asking this question as a DM.

Yes. By default D&D deities, as represented in Deities and Demigods, are slayable. They have no special protections just by being divine beyond those strictly mechanical ones laid out in said rules, and a reasonably large number of them aren't any harder to handle than any other classed NPC or Epic monster (often easier, in fact, because a number of deities are statted to theme instead of with combat in mind.) If you are in a setting-agnostic void, which is how the statblocks are presented, you can kill a god (what *happens* when you do that.. see below.)

If you are in a specific setting, you need to learn or decide how divinity works in that setting. Perhaps in your setting the gods have protective fields that reject everything of non-divine work, and so you must acquire a weapon made by the gods themselves to harm one. Maybe they're fundamental expressions of the cosmology; you can inconvenience one by destroying its physical form, but the power of the god survives and will eventually manifest a new body. Maybe you're in Forgotten Realms, where the gods are explicitly tied to their believers, and so you can weaken and possibly kill a god by mass converting or killing their followers or magically interfering with the flow of power from mortals to god. You could be in Eberron, where it is uncertain if the gods actually exist at all, or if all of their clerics just run by gestalt of belief or possibly are praying to powerful Archons/Angels/Demons/Devils instead. Those are the kinds of questions it is your right and job to determine as DM; there aren't printed rules for them.

Calanon
2011-10-07, 04:12 PM
Yes. By default D&D deities, as represented in Deities and Demigods, are slayable. They have no special protections just by being divine beyond those strictly mechanical ones laid out in said rules, and a reasonably large number of them aren't any harder to handle than any other classed NPC or Epic monster (often easier, in fact, because a number of deities are statted to theme instead of with combat in mind.) If you are in a setting-agnostic void, which is how the statblocks are presented, you can kill a god (what *happens* when you do that.. see below.)

If you are in a specific setting, you need to learn or decide how divinity works in that setting. Perhaps in your setting the gods have protective fields that reject everything of non-divine work, and so you must acquire a weapon made by the gods themselves to harm one. Maybe they're fundamental expressions of the cosmology; you can inconvenience one by destroying its physical form, but the power of the god survives and will eventually manifest a new body. Maybe you're in Forgotten Realms, where the gods are explicitly tied to their believers, and so you can weaken and possibly kill a god by mass converting or killing their followers or magically interfering with the flow of power from mortals to god. You could be in Eberron, where it is uncertain if the gods actually exist at all, or if all of their clerics just run by gestalt of belief or possibly are praying to powerful Archons/Angels/Demons/Devils instead. Those are the kinds of questions it is your right and job to determine as DM; there aren't printed rules for them.

Thank you Mr. Cactuar for answering my question :smallsmile: where all else have failed you succeeded *Gives u a divine rank*

hangedman1984
2011-10-08, 01:01 PM
Hmm... that seems like a cop out though. I would prefer a definitive answer as to how a god can die.

not a cop out at all, different settings and stories need different things. And you, as the creator of this world and head storyteller of this story, have to decide what makes sense and how things should work.

Jeraa
2011-10-08, 01:50 PM
Hmm... that seems like a cop out though. I would prefer a definitive answer as to how a god can die. Otherwise I would just make them all react like Cthulu (Gods don't die... They only sleep...) but due to the rules for a sleeping character (the god can be Coup'd grace and than be REALLY dead)

Its not a cop out - it is totally setting dependent. Even the book that says something about it (Deities and Demigods) has no definitive answer. It is nothing more then guidelines, to help a DM decide how it all works in his game/setting.

Thats what the first 20 pages of the book are - ideas to help determine how the gods work in your game. (Actually, being able to kill a god is just one thing the book suggests. It also suggests that maybe the gods are truly immortal, and no mortal can ever kill a god. Or maybe that only a specific god-killer god can kill a god)

Though we've been saying "Yes, you can kill a god" that isn't quite true. Whether or not the gods can die is totally setting/DM dependant. (Though Deities and Demigods does assume the default for the Core/PHB pantheon is that yes, gods can die.)

Balain
2011-10-09, 04:20 AM
In game terms, it depends on the system you are playing.

AD&D 1st edition, 2nd edition you could kill gods fairly easy. Yeah had to be higher level and needed to travel the god's home plane and find it and kill it, but possible to do all that at higher levels,

D&D 3 and 3.5 edition gods had avatars you could kill as a mortal you could not, how ever you could possibly become a demi-god those putting you more on par with a god and more likely able to kill it.

D&D 4th edition, you are back to being able to kill gods.

Old basic D&D well you could play through the various set until you became an immortal and then you could kill other gods.

Call of Cthuilhu, well you can fight the gods but you won't win.

SoC175
2011-10-09, 02:49 PM
AD&D 1st edition, 2nd edition you could kill gods fairly easy. Yeah had to be higher level and needed to travel the god's home plane and find it and kill it, but possible to do all that at higher levels, No, in AD&D 2nd Edition deities were all supposed to be so powerful as to be statless and able to squash any mortal like a mere ant. Only their avatars had stats, but their destruction didn't harm the deity

D&D 3 and 3.5 edition gods had avatars you could kill as a mortal In 3e and 3.5e the deities has stats both for themselves and for their avatars

Emmerask
2011-10-09, 02:58 PM
In 3e and 3.5e the deities has stats both for themselves and for their avatars

Not all of them, and I think not across all settings...
I know the FR pantheon has stats (except Ao etc), I´m not certain about Ebberon and Greyhawk and the million other official settings ^^

GungHo
2011-10-10, 12:23 PM
Upon seeing how my interpretation of the rules was wrong, following a period of intense personal reflection and after receiving "ha-ha told you" messages from my own players, I have gone to my players and retroactively revived all the PCs I turned into pillars of salt, or whose heads were exploded/imploded, or who were aghast at their new lot in life as roach feces when they originally brought their plans forward for destroying a god.

This has, of course, raised an interesting conundrum in our campaign world. What do you do when all the dead PCs (now NPCs) do when they're all retroactively returned to life? When I say retroactively, I mean to the moment of their deadening. I reviewed the old sheets (I keep dead PC sheets like playing cards) and decided, rather arbitrarily, who won, who lost, and who gave up their pursuit of deicide. This has resulted in an instantaneous power shift in the campaign, as new gods suddenly appeared and new kingdoms were formed all the way back to the beginning of the campaign world, which undid a lot of work that had been done and otherwise changed the landscape, pantheon, and even race of the PCs currently in the campaign (all gnomes are now spriggans because the guy who killed the god of Gnomes hated gnomes). I said to them, and I quote, "This is how it feels to be Ed Greenwood."

boj0
2011-10-10, 01:04 PM
You sir, are awesome

hamishspence
2011-10-10, 01:54 PM
Not all of them, and I think not across all settings...
I know the FR pantheon has stats (except Ao etc), I´m not certain about Ebberon and Greyhawk and the million other official settings ^^

The Greyhawk deities are statted in Manual of the Planes.

Eberron's shtick (one of them) is it's never clear whether or not the deities exist- so they don't have stats.

Alleran
2011-10-11, 05:32 AM
Eberron's shtick (one of them) is it's never clear whether or not the deities exist- so they don't have stats.
You could argue that the Silver Flame and the Rajahs are close enough to the definition to qualify as gods. They even have abilities that approximate divine ranks.

hamishspence
2011-10-12, 08:45 AM
I've seen one Rajah statted out in Dragon 337 (November 2005) : The Keeper of Secrets. Haven't seen the Flame statted out in 3rd ed though.

Tiamat is mentioned to be a Rajah in Dragons of Eberron.

Aquillion
2011-10-12, 11:37 AM
Not likely because at relatively low Rank they gain the ability to take 10 on everything all the time which with their godly saves renders them immune to silver bullet class spells. And then there are those who have a high enough rank to just auto-save against all spells. And an Epic Spell would most definitely be using chain-gating and thus likely work a grand once.Just cast Ice Assassin twice (with eschew materials, of course.) Or as many times as you want, but at least twice.

More generally, DMs should always remember The Monarda Law (http://nobilis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Monarda_Law). Trust me. Your game will be more fun if you do.

Emmerask
2011-10-12, 12:00 PM
eschew materials wouldn´t work,
a part of a god however tiny would be valued far higher then 1gp.
Heck the church of that god might pay you in boatloads of gold coins for just one atom ^^

Douglas
2011-10-12, 01:26 PM
eschew materials wouldn´t work,
a part of a god however tiny would be valued far higher then 1gp.
Heck the church of that god might pay you in boatloads of gold coins for just one atom ^^
By common sense, no. By RAW, Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components)

No cost is given, therefore the cost is negligible, therefore Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) (and also Eschew Materials works).

Incidentally, this also means that the spell component pouches of any spellcaster able to cast Apocalypse From the Sky contain an indeterminate number of artifacts.

Almost any DM would rule otherwise, of course - this is obviously the opposite of the case envisioned when the "no stated cost" clause was written - but that's RAW for you.