(Yet Another) Monk Proposal

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, I'm working on a redesign for monks; the basic idea is that you start by stripping away almost all of their class features, and then allow them to progress along one or more "Paths".

Each path would have a succession of class features; monks would be able to choose benefits from multiple paths, but must take the benefits of a given path in order (They'd have to take the third level of the Water path before they could take the fourth, etc.) Each path would have its own theme and set of abilities, most of them keyed off of the monk's wisdom score (In order to reduce MAD).

Right now I'm thinking the Air path would be related to movement and damage avoidance, the Earth path would be about heavy-hitting and damage resistance, the Fire path would be about extra and special attacks, and the Water path would be focused on magic resistance, regeneration and mysticism.

I have a rough draft of the four elemental progressions below- feel free to comment, or add your own.

Air
Air 1: The monk may add his Wisdom bonus to AC, when unarmored. The monk retains this bonus to touch AC and flat-footed AC, but does not receive it when helpless.
Air 2: The monk may add 5* His wisdom bonus to move speed, when unarmored.
Air 3: The monk may add his Wisdom bonus to Reflex saves, when unarmored, and gains the benefits of Evasion.
Air 4: The monk has a permanent miss chance of 5%* His wisdom bonus, when unarmored; he retains this miss chance against touch attacks and while flat-footed, but not while helpless or unconscious.
Air 5: The monk may add his wisdom bonus to AC again, when unarmored, and gains the benefits of Improved Evasion.
Air 6: The monk may Dimension Door a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom bonus.
Air 7: The monk may Dimension Door as a swift action.

Earth
Earth 1: The monk may add his Wisdom Bonus to Strength, for the purpose of damage rolls made with their fists.
Earth 2: The monk may add his Wisdom Bonus to Fortitude Saves.
Earth 3: The monk may replace his Con score with his Wis score, for the purposes of determining HP.
Earth 4: The monk gains DR WIS/Chaotic.
Earth 5: The Monk may make a number of Stunning attacks per day equal to his Wisdom bonus, with DC equal to 10 + WIS modifier + Strength modifier .
Earth 6: The monk may add his Wisdom bonus to his natural armor score.
Earth 7: The monk may add his Wisdom bonus to AC, Damage Reduction and Damage Rolls, again.

Fire
Fire 1: The monk may add his Wisdom Bonus to attack rolls.
Fire 2: A number of times per day equal to their wisdom modifier, after making any attack (including AoOs, but not attacks made using this feat), the monk may make another attack with BAB equal to the original attack.
Fire 3: A monk may make a number of AoOs per turn equal to his Wisdom modifier.
Fire 4: The monk may make a single attack at full BAB against every opponent within range, a number of times per day equal to their wisdom bonus.
Fire 5: A number of times per day equal to their wisdom bonus, the monk may make a single melee attack as a touch attack.
Fire 6: A number of times per day equal to their wisdom modifier, the monk may make a single attack with reach equal to 5* their wisdom modifier.
Fire 7: Once per day, the monk may make all of his attacks in a given round as either reach attacks or touch attacks.

Water
Water 1: The monk gains spell resistance equal to their Wisdom modifier.
Water 2: The monk may add their wisdom modifier to all saves (twice to will saves.)
Water 3: The monk gains temporary HP equal to twice their wisdom modifier, and may refresh these at the start of their turn.
Water 4: The monk's spell resistance increases to 10+their wisdom modifier.
Water 5: A number of times per day equal to their wisdom modifier, the monk may make an aditional save against an ongoing effect.
Water 6:The monk gains fast healing equal to his Wisdom modifier.
Water 7: The monks's spell resistance increases to equal their Wisdom Score. (Not the modifier)

I'll try to add more when I get back from work- decide exactly which basic features should be kept, and which should be gotten rid of. I also plan to add other progression paths- right now I'm considering a Plant path based around regeneration and grappling, and an animal path that give additional natural attacks, and some additional abilities (scent, climb speed, etc.)

[NeoSeraphi]

Water Path- It's called "spell resistance", not "magic resistance".

Water 6- This needs some touching up. Try phrasing it this way: "The monk gains fast healing equal to his Wisdom modifier"

Earth 4- What material/alignment overcomes their damage reduction (I suggest DR Wis/Chaotic)

Earth 7- You misspelled "damage"

Air 1- You should add "The monk retains this bonus to touch AC and flat-footed AC, but does not receive it when helpless"

Air 4- Don't know how this works fluff-wise, but you should state whether it is retained or not while the monk is unconscious or helpless.

Fire- No problems here. Everything looks good.


I like this idea. I hope to see it turn into a full class.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Water Path- It's called "spell resistance", not "magic resistance".

Water 6- This needs some touching up. Try phrasing it this way: "The monk gains fast healing equal to his Wisdom modifier"

Earth 4- What material/alignment overcomes their damage reduction (I suggest DR Wis/Chaotic)

Earth 7- You misspelled "damage"

Air 1- You should add "The monk retains this bonus to touch AC and flat-footed AC, but does not receive it when helpless"

Air 4- Don't know how this works fluff-wise, but you should state whether it is retained or not while the monk is unconscious or helpless.

Fire- No problems here. Everything looks good.


I like this idea. I hope to see it turn into a full class.

Fixed. Thanks!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Air 2 doesn't work right.

[Hanuman]

Tried it, clunky, doesn't blend well with supported material.

Try this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11888611&postcount=1)

[Coidzor]

The biggest question at this point, I think, is how often one would get these progressions, which will help inform the relevance of the abilities a bit better as when they'd be available if one ate the opportunity cost of not grabbing other abilities.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Air 2 doesn't work right.

What about it doesn't work right? Or do you just mean the type (Now fixed)?


Tried it, clunky, doesn't blend well with supported material.

Tried what, what part of it is clunky?

[Ashtagon]

Water 1, as written, is pathetically weak. You might need to double check how spell resistance works. Most creatures have SR 0. SR (like AC) doesn't really become useful unless it is at least 10, preferably 15-20 or more.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Water 1, as written, is pathetically weak. You might need to double check how spell resistance works. Most creatures have SR 0. SR (like AC) doesn't really become useful unless it is at least 10, preferably 15-20 or more.

Yeah, I was aware of that- I figure at that point it's more like a mild miss chance, and a bonus to spell resistance from other sources. (Like, the difference between 0 and WIS is pathetic, but the difference between 10 and 10+WIS might be worthwhile.)

I might rearrange it anyway, but I figured that 10+ spell resistance might be too good for a 1-level dip.

[Steward]

Maybe you can add a clause that says something like, "You lose your class features if you stop advancing as a Monk". SR 1 to 4 honestly isn't that attractive, and it doesn't seem fair to me to give Monks a class feature that weak. I mean, what are the odds that any enemy that can cast spells will fail a DC 4 (or similar) caster-level check?

[Ashtagon]

Maybe you can add a clause that says something like, "You lose your class features if you stop advancing as a Monk". SR 1 to 4 honestly isn't that attractive, and it doesn't seem fair to me to give Monks a class feature that weak. I mean, what are the odds that any enemy that can cast spells will fail a DC 4 (or similar) caster-level check?

At the very least, it should be class level + Wisdom bonus, to ensure some kind of parity as you level up. A "normal" difficulty would be 10 + class level + Wisdom bonus, after all.

[Coidzor]

Given the way Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance) works, a nat 1 is not an auto-fail, so a 3rd level Caster cannot fail to penetrate the spell resistance of a Monk with a Wisdom of 18. Generally it's about 4th level when one can be guaranteed a +2 stat item, so even a Monk with an 18 from a race with +2 Wisdom and with a +2 Wis item has SR 6, so at about 3rd to 4th level, their SR works 15-20% of the time against mooks, 5-10% on equalish level foes, and 0% of the time against boss or sub-boss level foes. So, after 5th level it's largely useless, because even at 8th level after two points into Wisdom from level-up and a +4 Wisdom item, that's still SR 8, so foes a level lower than the monk don't even need to roll against it and foes 2 levels lower only fail on a nat 1.

Wisdom Modifier + Monk level would get a Monk with Wis 18 that same SR at 2nd level. SR 6 vs. a level 2 caster means they need to roll a 4 or better to punch through it, so 1-3 they fail, that's a 15% chance versus equal level foes. 3rd level monk vs. 3rd level caster, SR 7, still a 4 or better to beat it, still 15% in favor of the Monk. At 4th level, Wis jumps to 20, now it's SR 9, so the 4th level caster needs a 5 or better, so now it's a 20% chance of not getting through.

Because of all of the different ways of generating ability scores, a class feature, especially something with the background of the Monk, probably should not be predicated upon the idea that they start with an 18 or 20 in Wisdom in order for that feature to be useful/usable at all.

SR is useless against foes who have CL= SR-1, so non-scaling SR becomes irrelevant, non-scaling low SR becomes irrelevant about as quickly as you get it. Class features that become irrelevant aren't very good.


Yeah, I was aware of that- I figure at that point it's more like a mild miss chance, and a bonus to spell resistance from other sources.

You'd need to rephrase it in order to have it stack and increase other sources of SR.

As for being like a miss chance, you'd need to have it force a different roll with no modifiers against a flat target in order to replicate that effect rather than the standard caster level check.