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Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-06, 06:16 PM
4452 posts, three threads, and 6 months later, here we are.

First thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195298), second thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196876), and third thread here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201620)

We were currently discussing more specific scenarios, often involving guest stars, to avoid breaking into the same cyclical arguments we've all heard a million times. So far it seems to be working, thank the God-Emperor.

The Glyphstone
2011-10-06, 06:42 PM
Well here we are again,
it's been such a pleasure
Remember when we had
this argument thrice;
Oh how we fought and fought
But how nobody was flaming
Under the circumstances
We've been shockingly nice...

:smallcool:

The_Final_Stand
2011-10-07, 02:52 AM
So, lets get the ball rolling, shall we?

REAPERS. Reapers from Mass Effect invade the 40K, SW and ST galaxies. How much damage do they do?

I include 40K only because this thread is partly about them, and suspect that The Imperium crushes the Reapers after a few fringe worlds are lost.

Bear in mind that Team Reaper is in a relatively bad situation. They do not have the Mass Relays to monopolise, and so must rely on their FTL, which, while fast, is still insignificant next to the size of a galaxy. Each side has a centre of government, but those tend to be heavily defended. None of the sides have used Mass Effect drives, so the Reapers don't have anywhere near a rough idea of what the sides are capable of.

On the other hand, they are still several km long space crustaceans, with incredible kinetic barrier generators, who work with powerful mass based weapons in a galaxy where Newton is King, so they don't generally engage at visual range. (The battle of the Citadel being a notable exception). Apparently they're maneuverable too, since Joker states that Sovereign "pulled a turn that would have torn any of our ships in half". Given that in the battle of the Citadel, the Normandy does a 180 in just a few seconds, this is very fast indeed.

Again, I'm not so interested in the 40K side as the SW and ST sides, and it's more how much damage they do rather than "do they win".

KingofMadCows
2011-10-07, 05:21 AM
The Replicators from Stargate eats everyone.

As for the Reapers, they're weak. Weapon technology in Mass Effect are not that impressive compared to Star Trek, Star Wars, and Stargate. The Dreadnaught cannons slugs only have the kinetic energy equivalent to 40 kilotons of TNT. Photon torpedoes have yields in the megatons, possibly gigatons. The first naquadah enhanced nuke they made in Stargate had a yield of 1 gigaton.

Chen
2011-10-07, 07:28 AM
Yeah I think Mass Effect has an issue with its weaponry just being inferior. Its more scientifically accurate since its easy to imagine accelerating a slug fast (with the pseudoscience "mass effect fields" to make it easier) but it doesn't really compare with completely made up phasors, photon torpedoes, lances, turbolasers etc. The fact that their speeds are so much slower with no Mass Relays around doesn't help either.

hamishspence
2011-10-07, 07:42 AM
"Macrocannons" and a few others are pretty similar- they fire very large shells at very high speeds.

DarthArminius
2011-10-07, 12:11 PM
The Replicators from Stargate eats everyone.

As for the Reapers, they're weak. Weapon technology in Mass Effect are not that impressive compared to Star Trek, Star Wars, and Stargate. The Dreadnaught cannons slugs only have the kinetic energy equivalent to 40 kilotons of TNT. Photon torpedoes have yields in the megatons, possibly gigatons. The first naquadah enhanced nuke they made in Stargate had a yield of 1 gigaton.

We have no proof the Replicators can assimilate the Species 8472.

byaku rai
2011-10-07, 12:36 PM
Did we ever actually resolve the Xenomorph scenario? Also, what's all this stuff about Queen Mothers and Emperors and taking over Earth and the Alien home planet? :smallconfused:

Parra
2011-10-07, 01:57 PM
We have no proof the Replicators can assimilate the Species 8472.

Replicators dont assimilate (thats Borg), they melt you down to your basic componets to build new Replicator Bricks. So I dont see them having any real issue melting Species 8472

Chen
2011-10-07, 02:24 PM
Replicators dont assimilate (thats Borg), they melt you down to your basic componets to build new Replicator Bricks. So I dont see them having any real issue melting Species 8472

Considering people from Stargate were able to beat the replicators I imagine species 8472 wouldn't have that big an issue with them. Hell the non-human form replicators got destroyed by 20th century gunfire.

Lamech
2011-10-07, 02:52 PM
Replicators dont assimilate (thats Borg), they melt you down to your basic componets to build new Replicator Bricks. So I dont see them having any real issue melting Species 8472

8472 ignores phasor blasts. I suspect that 8472 can survive the replicator on foot, let alone with planet destroying super shots they are so fond of.

On the reapers: Weak weapons,, no real way to hide from the magic trek sensors, unless they used massive swarm tactics the feds would stomp them easy. They might do a little better if they tried to keep range against SW, but hyperdrives are too fast, and again their weapons are too weak. So the amount of damage they would do is roughly how many completely undefended worlds they can come across before someone stomps their face in.

The_Final_Stand
2011-10-07, 03:00 PM
I guess. Thats what I get for trying to bring pseudo-realism into a thread where plot with sciency superweapons, plot with space-magic, and plot with the will of the God-Emperor decide who wins.

KingofMadCows
2011-10-07, 03:21 PM
Considering people from Stargate were able to beat the replicators I imagine species 8472 wouldn't have that big an issue with them. Hell the non-human form replicators got destroyed by 20th century gunfire.

The Replicators are able to drain entire planets of their precious resources to make more of themselves. The Replicators had only one ship left at the beginning of season 8 and less than a year later, they had an army big enough to overwhelm the entire Milky Way galaxy. They'll be able to eventually overwhelm any opposition by sheer numbers alone.

Liffguard
2011-10-07, 04:28 PM
Reapers are faster than ST but slower than SW. Relatively weak weapons compared to the other two settings. We don't really know their defensive capabilities. Sovereign didn't look to be in any trouble at all against the Citadel and 5th fleets until its barriers went down due to the backlash of its host dieing. And the only other full Reaper we know to have been destroyed was done so by a weapon that left a several thousand kilometer long canyon on the face of a planet.

Parra
2011-10-07, 05:45 PM
The Replicators are able to drain entire planets of their precious resources to make more of themselves. The Replicators had only one ship left at the beginning of season 8 and less than a year later, they had an army big enough to overwhelm the entire Milky Way galaxy. They'll be able to eventually overwhelm any opposition by sheer numbers alone.

less than a year as far as I recall.

But yea, replicators are the closest thing to a proper sci-fi use of replicator type tech that I have seen.

Genosaurer
2011-10-07, 05:51 PM
I guess. Thats what I get for trying to bring pseudo-realism into a thread where plot with sciency superweapons, plot with space-magic, and plot with the will of the God-Emperor decide who wins.

Well, the problem is that the capabilities of the foe in a setting tends to be scaled against the protagonists, to present a challenge but not be unbeatable. Mass Effect is a fairly low-powered setting in sci-fi terms, which makes the Reapers measure up poorly when pitted in hypothetical combat against protagonists from other franchises.

Heck, Star Trek has spacecraft that ignore inertia and can fight while moving faster than lightspeed, functionally unlimited energy, accurate point-to-point teleportation and the ability to effectively create matter from nothing... and they're the underdogs in this contest.

You're going to have to propose something from a higher-powered setting than Mass Effect to be a real threat.

The Xenomorph was relatively silly as well, for the same reason. They're clearly a threat to the near-future-of-the-80s humans from their own setting but the sheer brutality of the Warhammer 40k universe would make them a minor footnote, and the stupidly advanced technology of Star Trek would largely nullify their advantages (though they'd no doubt gobble up a few redshirts and smack Worf around to show how dangerous they were first). They might be able to give Star Wars some headaches, though.

V'icternus
2011-10-07, 06:20 PM
They might be able to give Star Wars some headaches, though.

Assuming no Force users.

I'd be willing to bet one Xenomorph could take out a whole squadron of Storm Troopers. The same Storm Troopers that can fail to find you if you hide under the floor of your ship.

But even a Padawan Jedi can do ridiculous acrobatics while blindfolded, is hardly ever surprised, and has a sword that cuts through everything, while also sealing the wound shut behind it, meaning no accidental acid spray to the face.


You know what I'd love to see, though? Alien outbreak on a Hive World (40k, for those who don't know), within weeks the whole planet is covered in the things, they've got several queens and no humans are left alive...

And then the Adepta Sororitas arrive.

I mean, we've already established that the Aliens dislike fire. Who better to purge them from the world than the flamer happy Bolter Bit- Er, most devoted servants of The Immortal God Emporer of Mankind?

I'd enjoy seeing an Alien queen try to stand up to a Multi-Melta.



ANYWAY, on the topic of... the topic.

Really? Star Trek is back again?
Why do you do this to me, vs thread?

As for Stargate, well, the Goa'uld are a galactic empire, much like the SW empire or the Imperium... except constantly infighting, even when facing a more powerful enemy. And their fanatics aren't nearly as fanatic as the Emprah's.
The Replicators...
Well, they took out basically every Goa'uld ship in the galaxy in hours. That's some serious power.
It's like having termites, except instead of eating wood, they eat metal. Then turn it into more termites. Which are as tough as the metal they are composed from. And fairly immune to energy attacks.
Then they build a space ship.
Made of metal termites.
And whenever you use a tactic or weapon against them, it will likely never work again, against any of them, because they are a hive mind.

They generally make the Borg look tame. And, I think, would pretty clearly win against ALL the factions present in this vs thread, assuming no plot device. Except maybe the 'Nids, who are basically the same except they eat organic stuff and tend to, oddly enough, be easier to eradicate.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-07, 06:35 PM
See, the thing is, we have almost no idea what the Reapers are capable of. We have plenty of stats on what an Alliance dreadnaught or other ships in the MA-verse can do, but very little on the exact capabilities of the Reapers.

What we do know: The Reaper main dorsal weapon can one-shot dreadnaughts and they use these weird molten-metal guns as secondary weapons that go through a ship like piano wire through butter. They have kinetic barriers capable of taking the combined fire of a literal fleet and a hull of similar strength. They have mind-control capabilities, the full extent of which are not known. They can convert the enemy's dead into zombie shock troops in the span of a couple of hours. It can be assumed that they have incredibly good electronic warfare systems, given their nature. They have tactical FTL. There are, at the absolute least, several hundred of them and most likely more. They are capable of subtlety and are extremely intelligent.

I agree that the Mass Effect universe is underpowered compared to everyone else, but I think the Reapers could stand a decent chance. They're obviously not taking over the Imperium by force, but indoctrination is shown to be hellishly scary and efficient, so if they're subtle, they could do pretty well.

Mass Effect spoilers
We've seen two of them killed.

Sovereign tanked the entire combined Fifth Fleet and CDF. He only was killed when Shepard scrambled his systems long enough for the Normandy to get in a killshot.

The derelict Reaper, killed 37 million years before the game (and still brainwashing everyone that comes aboard!), was killed by a ridiculously big gun that did this when it hit a planet:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100315030519/masseffect/images/thumb/c/c8/Great_Rift.png/478px-Great_Rift.png

Genosaurer
2011-10-07, 07:07 PM
The thing is, the weapon that killed the Derelict Reaper in ME2 isn't all that much more powerful than the standard warship armament of Star Trek, Star Wars or Warhammer 40k, and significantly less powerful than the planet-busting superweapons from those settings.

EDIT:


You know what I'd love to see, though? Alien outbreak on a Hive World (40k, for those who don't know), within weeks the whole planet is covered in the things, they've got several queens and no humans are left alive...

I think it would go similarly to when there's an Enslaver Plague, or a Daemon outbreak, or a Genestealer uprising, or a Zombie Plague outbreak on a Hive World. It's not that the Xenomorphs wouldn't be dangerous in the Warhammer 40k setting, it's that the scale of their threat is very similar to other similar foes that the Imperium of Man has shown it can at least hold at bay in its own setting.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-07, 07:31 PM
The thing is, the weapon that killed the Derelict Reaper in ME2 isn't all that much more powerful than the standard warship armament of Star Trek, Star Wars or Warhammer 40k, and significantly less powerful than the planet-busting superweapons from those settings.

I don't think so. The guns of all three universes can deal significant damage to planets like and beyond that picture, but that requires sustained fire, not a single shot.

Planet-busting superweapons aren't an issue, because they're incredibly rare in all three verses (even if ST and SW plotlines hand them out like candy). In the only two verses which carry out planet-killing with any regularity, both usually use sustained fire from multiple warships in orbit. But I swear to the God-Emperor that if I hear another argument about Base Delta Zero I will gouge out my eyes and jump out of my window screaming, and the next time you look into a mirror, my eyeless corpse will be standing behind you, ready to wreak vengeance.


I think it would go similarly to when there's an Enslaver Plague, or a Daemon outbreak, or a Genestealer uprising, or a Zombie Plague outbreak on a Hive World. It's not that the Xenomorphs wouldn't be dangerous in the Warhammer 40k setting, it's that the scale of their threat is very similar to other similar foes that the Imperium of Man has shown it can at least hold at bay in its own setting.

Yeah. Xenomorphs would tear through the civilian populace. The Arbites and PDF might do alright, but they don't usually have the firepower or numbers to take on such a threat.

Depending on how the higher-ups who get involved view the threat and the hive in question, it would probably end with either the site being nuked from orbit (and then nuked again, and then again, because the Imperium doesn't screw around when it comes to murdering things) or the Guard being sent in en masse to clean it out.

If they've spread over the entire planet, unless it's a particularly valuable world, Exterminatus is probably going to come knocking. Although if it's well-removed and they think the threat is contained to the single planet, they might just seal off the world.

Parra
2011-10-07, 08:25 PM
it would probably end with either the site being nuked from orbit

This is the most likely outcome of a Xenomorph infestation of a hive world. Its the only way to be sure :smallcool:

byaku rai
2011-10-07, 08:52 PM
If it's a Hive World, chances are that it is to some extent at least of value to the Imperium. Which means they'd fight for it before nuking it. Especially if they came to the planet thinking it could be saved.

While PDF forces would probably be effective against the bugs due to las weapons, Arbites troops carry shotguns by default, and those cause splatter. In addition, the hives cater to the Xeno default strategies like nobody's business. Especially the underhive... It'd be a lot like fighting genestealers, except genestealers at least tend to use preexisting routes from place to place instead of burrowing their own.

Still, since WH routinely fight the Xenomorphs' badass big brother and lose very slowly just like they do against every other threat, I don't see it being a huge problem until the Adeptus Xenobiologicus tries to weaponize them. Still, considering they're a segment of the AdMech, it should be ok. Fairly sure that the majority of the AdMechs are gonna be immune to facehuggers by virtue of not having mouths, internal organs, or even really chest cavities, and skitarii don't screw around.

What'd be more interesting is Xenomorphs vs. Orks...

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-07, 09:03 PM
Did we ever actually resolve the Xenomorph scenario? Also, what's all this stuff about Queen Mothers and Emperors and taking over Earth and the Alien home planet?
There's one comic where a scientist theorizes about the Origins of the Alien...
Using Darwinism, he concludes that there must be a single Alien home world where they evolved, and naturally, the Aliens there live in balance with their ecosystem.
It shows that indeed the Aliens do have predators that hunt them and they hunt in turn.
They DO not dominate.
They've evolved to kill the creatures who can attack them, while those creatures (quadrupeds) are immune to their poison.
Instead of huge hives, the Aliens have a modest hut they build from jelly and remains to protect their Queen.

The scientist theorizes that one day, this balance was broken, and an alien explorer brought the Xenomorphs off world, and without natural predators they thrived, much as occurs in the real world.
I found it a very compelling story.

Now, on a world where the Aliens win, eventually its terraformed to be covered in silicon and leaving either one Queen Mother who rules them all, and or multiple Queens.
If there are multiple Queens a war will take place, with the winner ruling the survivors and becoming a more powerful Empress.
In a PARTICULARLY bad war, an Emperor will emerge.

A King Alien was bred in a lab to horrifying results.

Now on Earth, an Alien Queen Chestburster was introduced to the planet. That Chestburster became a Queen and started spawning only Queen Eggs, and so those Eggs became Queens, and it became a terrible epidemic that cost us the planet. The Queens took over and established cults of humans to worship them and provide steady food and host supplies.

Eventually, the same Alien explorer of the race that probably brought the alien offworld, fixed the world for us. And exterminated them, but we turned on it and took Earth back.

But the point is, it didn't take long; the Alien Xenomorphs can adapt very well to specific situations.

But they can't make Leviathans, which is a pretty damning thing.
:smalleek:




It's not that the Xenomorphs wouldn't be dangerous in the Warhammer 40k setting, it's that the scale of their threat is very similar to other similar foes that the Imperium of Man has shown it can at least hold at bay in its own setting.
Okay, that sounds fair.
I am content.
:smallsmile:


I don't see it being a huge problem until the Adeptus Xenobiologicus tries to weaponize them.
A general tried to organize and train them to fight for the USA. They promptly ignored their targets when the Queen ordered them to kill said General.


This is the most likely outcome of a Xenomorph infestation of a hive world. Its the only way to be sure
Even then, there's a good chance one of them is hiding on your ship or one of your crewmen is infected.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-07, 09:04 PM
Still, since WH routinely fight the Xenomorphs' badass big brother and lose very slowly just like they do against every other threat

They lose very slowly in the strategic sense, when looking on the universal scale. That has less to do with their own competence and more to do with the GRIMDARK hordes arrayed against them.

They win quite often in a more local sense.


I don't see it being a huge problem until the Adeptus Xenobiologicus tries to weaponize them. Still, considering they're a segment of the AdMech, it should be ok. Fairly sure that the majority of the AdMechs are gonna be immune to facehuggers by virtue of not having mouths, internal organs, or even really chest cavities, and skitarii don't screw around.


Uh. Is the Adeptus Xenobiologicus actually a thing? Even with the Tech Priests being somewhat independent from the rest of the Imperium and even the Inquisition, I can't imagine the Inquisiton allowing such a thing to exist.


What'd be more interesting is Xenomorphs vs. Orks...

I don't think the xenomorphs evolve as rapidly as 'nids do, but if they do, Octavia shows that that would be a really ****ing horrible idea for everyone besides the Orks and xenomorphs.


Even then, there's a good chance one of them is hiding on your ship or one of your crewmen is infected.

How are they going to manage that? The second they realize they're up against something similar to genestealers, perimeter defenses are going to be prioritized even more than they already are. The Guard is, on the whole, pretty damn competent, and they've fought similar foes before. Even if a single alien or facehugger slips through, damage is going to be pretty minimal.

And if someone gets facehugger'd, they're going to shoot them in the face and burn the body, not carry them back to the ship. Xenomorph breeding wouldn't work nearly as well against a foe whose default response to xeno infection is to kill everyone involved with fire.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-07, 09:10 PM
I don't think the xenomorphs evolve as rapidly as 'nids do, but if they do, Octavia shows that that would be a really ****ing horrible idea for everyone besides the Orks and xenomorphs.
They don't evolve. There's no need to. They're perfect.

They do however mutate if the host species is 'worthy' enough, or if its the will of the Queen.

There's a swimming version of the Aliens, and flying ones too.
Plus dog versions, gorilla versions, all messed up stuff to scare you even more.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-07, 09:11 PM
They don't evolve. There's no need to. They're perfect.

They do however mutate if the host species is 'worthy' enough, or if its the will of the Queen.

There's a swimming version of the Aliens, and flying ones too.
Plus dog versions, gorilla versions, all messed up stuff to scare you even more.

Uh. You just contradicted yourself within the space of two sentences. Mutation is one of the most basic parts of evolution.

And xenomorphs are not "perfect". Why do you keep saying that?

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-07, 09:16 PM
How are they going to manage that?
Because that's what they DO.

They're Stealth Checks are through the roof.
Lowering the landing ramp, and as boots are marching down and out, their climbing up and in.


The second they realize they're up against something similar to genestealers, perimeter defenses are going to be prioritized even more than they already are. The Guard is, on the whole, pretty damn competent, and they've fought similar foes before.
Nobody gets 100%.
One is enough.
Not one Queen. Not one Xenomorph.
One Egg is enough.


Uh. You just contradicted yourself within the space of two sentences. Mutation is one of the most basic parts of evolution.
Evolution is different from mutation.
And that doesn't change the fact that they don't change unless they want to change. And if there's a will or purpose behind it other than those defined by Darwinism, it isn't truly evolution.


And xenomorphs are not "perfect". Why do you keep saying that?
They are perfect, everything is their prey, and they have no predators. They exist perfectly fine for years without any contact.
Intelligent. Deadly. Sneaky.
What more could one ask for.
They're unpredictable and damn scary.

Genosaurer
2011-10-07, 09:34 PM
Intelligent. Deadly. Sneaky.
What more could one ask for.
They're unpredictable and damn scary.

They're actually quite predictable, tending to follow the almost the exact same established patterns every time they turn up. While they do exhibit a lot of animal cunning (in the clever girl! sense) they're not really particularly smart. They're certainly dangerous enough, but I have trouble viewing them as a threat on par with truly intelligent alien infestation like Star Trek's Neural Parasites, much less Warhammer 40k's Genestealers or Enslavers.

Weezer
2011-10-07, 09:49 PM
They are perfect, everything is their prey, and they have no predators. They exist perfectly fine for years without any contact.
Intelligent. Deadly. Sneaky.
What more could one ask for.
They're unpredictable and damn scary.

I'm sorry, but I don't see them being perfect at all. They get killed in great numbers by automatic defenses, get defeated in every movie. They do get played up a lot but they aren't perfect by any means. They fight and lose (eventually) to humans with assault rifles/flame throwers/mining exoskeletons.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-07, 10:40 PM
They're actually quite predictable, tending to follow the almost the exact same established patterns every time they turn up.
Why change what works?
Turn out the lights, kill the intruders one by one.



They get killed in great numbers by automatic defenses, get defeated in every movie.
You're thinking short term.
The Xenomorph wins long term.



They do get played up a lot but they aren't perfect by any means. They fight and lose (eventually) to humans with assault rifles/flame throwers/mining exoskeletons.
They don't lose at all!
If just one survives, that's enough to get a victory...
Aliens is proof enough of that. The fall of Earth is proof of that.

But whatever, I have no evidence that the Alien can produce anything on the scale of the Tyranids, so there's no need to go any further. The Tyranids field Queen-sized opponents with impunity, so I doubt the Imperium would noticeably be affected by first contact with the Aliens.
I just think on a small-scale; scenario-wise, that whether you're an Imperial, Space Marine or a Federation whatever, landing on any planet where Aliens share the same hemisphere as you is gonna ruin your day, and probably the day of the next person you meet.

byaku rai
2011-10-07, 11:51 PM
I want a link to the comic, if it exists online in some form.

I'm 90% sure that the Adeptus Xenobiologicus exists, although I might have its name wrong. It studies Xenos biology and physiology in an attempt to figure out ways to destroy them better. It got an immense boost in power when Tyranids hopped into the mix. The Inquisition tolerates them because they don't try to use Xenos tech or modify humans with Xenos DNA, they just cut aliens up to figure out better ways for the boys in the field to blow them apart. Of course, you have to remember that the big I only tolerates the AdMech in any form because removing them would completely undermine the Imperium, and killing off an entire branch of the AdMech would definitely be seen as a declaration of war.

If the Xenomorphs did get weaponized, it would most likely take the form of dropping frozen eggs and/or queens onto enemy planets/ Eldar Craftworlds and letting the bugs do the work for them. I'm actually curious how the bugger latent psionic abilities would interact with Eldar psychic powers... And, god-emperor forbid, what would happen if a Queen was hatched from something like a farseer...

Of course, I long ago decided that the Xenomorphs had to have been genetically engineered. The early stages of their evolution couldn't have supported themselves. So this is exactly what they were meant for.

Genosaurer
2011-10-08, 05:10 AM
Okay, if we're doing scenarios:

Warships from the United Federation of Planets, the Galactic Empire, and the Imperium of Man darken the skies above strategically-located planet of Organia (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Organia). Suddenly, moments before the climactic showdown can begin, every instrument of violence becomes unbearably hot, ending the war before it can begin!

The Organians, powerful non-corporeal beings, force a truce that forbids open conflict. Instead, a Neutral Zone is established as a buffer between the three powers. Ownership of worlds within the zone where a claim is disputed will be settled by a contest - the party that can demonstrate the ability to most efficiently develop that world gets it. However, although outright warfare is now off the table, sabotoge and subterfuge during the contest seems to be an option...

So, under these circumstances, who gets the biggest gains?

The United Federation of Planets, with their absurd civilian-side technologies and 'post-scarcity society', certainly seems to have the edge at first glance. But they're also hamstrung by a free press and a strong tendency to play by the rules... or at least, they will probably still cheat, but they'll do it a lot less systematically and effectively than the other two powers. Would underhanded tricks, COMPNOR propaganda and Polymorphine be enough for one of the other powers to emerge victorious? And what would be the internal effects of universal peace on the Galactic Empire and Imperium of Man?

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-08, 07:42 AM
I want a link to the comic, if it exists online in some form.
I think I might have a few.
Which ones in particular? And how do you want them? As .cbr or .jpg?



f the Xenomorphs did get weaponized, it would most likely take the form of dropping frozen eggs and/or queens onto enemy planets/ Eldar Craftworlds and letting the bugs do the work for them.
Oh, I that would work.
But if 'weaponization' consists of leading Xenomorphs into battle and giving them targets and orders, that won't work.



Of course, I long ago decided that the Xenomorphs had to have been genetically engineered. The early stages of their evolution couldn't have supported themselves. So this is exactly what they were meant for.
But the full grown Xenomorphs look after the eggs and the Facehuggers...
They're just like hornets or bees-using other organisms as hosts for their propagation.
So that's why on the Alien homeworld-their origin, not a world they've conquered, there'd be an ecological balance.

Selrahc
2011-10-08, 07:59 AM
On the face of it, Star Trek would win every time.

However, the Imperium has a few aces up its sleeve. Its best administrators are super geniuses far beyond the abilities of any of the other faction, its STC programs allow it to stand up a world in incredibly short order and it has a large surplus population that it can channel into new planets. The Imperium already does stand up new planets into incredibly productive worlds within short order. If that becomes their primary focus they could do it very well.

They will also be by far the most adept at sabotaging others. Propaganda, Polymorphine and Psykers will all wreak havoc on the opposition to a level far beyond what the other factions can manage.


Star Trek though, is an entire society dedicated to peace. They have effective terraforming equipment. Replicators. Incredible standards of education and welfare. The federation puts a lot of focus on colonization, so even in the face of sabotage it would do well.


Star Wars I think trails the other two massively. Their hyperdrives let things be brought in quicker, and their megacorps can probably handle the job reasonably well. But they don't have anything like the experience or knowledge of creating and advancing new colonies that the other two factions do.

Both Star Wars and 40k society utterly fall apart without violence. If the "spell" even prevents internal violence then ST wins by default.

Urist
2011-10-08, 09:21 AM
I think the word that hurts 40k the most is "efficiently". The Imperium has no concept of efficiency, just brute force getting things done. As well, their adminstrators are the opposite of genius. They fail at their one job, keeping the Imperium running smoothly. Also, STC prefab housing,etc. equivalents are known in all three of the settings.

Star Wars has few advantages in this scenario. One that they do have is a massive force of dispossessed slave labor they're willing to exploit until they keel over dead(alien slaves). Another is, as was stated earlier, was the ability of hyperdrive trade routes to safely, securely, and faster than the other factions. One last one, really a corner case, is that, if the world is a Deathworld type area, they are adept at terraforming, which is quite useful.

Selrahc
2011-10-08, 09:50 AM
As well, their adminstrators are the opposite of genius.


No. What you are doing there is looking at the teeming masses, and assuming that represents the best that exists. Like looking at a mass of Imperial Guardsmen and assuming that it is the pinnacle of the armed soldiery of the Imperium.

But just as there are Space Marines, the Imperium has its elite corps of administrators and clerks too. They're a lot less famous, because it's harder to make a tabletop game about someone efficiently handling a bureaucratic emergency.

In Dark Heresy Ascension and Rogue Trader we can see the prowess of these individuals. Headhunted fairly heavily by the Inquisition, they can stride into the tangled mess of the Imperial Bureaucracy and make it dance. The best of them are almost omniscient with regards to data, and are 5 or 6 times more intelligent than the human maximum. These superhumanly brilliant men are in short supply, particularly because in 40k knowledge itself is dangerous and work with the inquisition often puts them into the way of forbidden knowledge. Rest assured though, that the uppermost levels of the administratum also contain some frighteningly effective personnel. If taking over a planet is entirely reliant on those personnel, they would probably take personal command over the enterprise.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-08, 10:05 AM
This scenario is stupid.
Any of the factions can efficiently and effectively terraform a single planet, with no discernible difference in the end result.
Why would any of them agree to this peace anyways?

byaku rai
2011-10-08, 10:13 AM
I think I might have a few.
Which ones in particular? And how do you want them? As .cbr or .jpg?

But the full grown Xenomorphs look after the eggs and the Facehuggers...
They're just like hornets or bees-using other organisms as hosts for their propagation.
So that's why on the Alien homeworld-their origin, not a world they've conquered, there'd be an ecological balance.

Anything about their homeworld, and the fall of Earth. .jpg would be best. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

I'll admit that it is possible that they evolved naturally, but it seems like a much... neater explanation that they were genetically engineered from a lesser, pre-existing species for the purpose of biological weaponry. If nothing else, their natural ability to live in void is suspicious. Occam's razor: the simpler explanation is usually the more correct one.

In regards to the Challenge of the Week, I think this one would have to go to Star Trek. While the IoM is quite good at some things, the efficient colonization of worlds is not one, simply because of that pesky little word "efficient". I doubt that Star Wars has the colonizing capacity to really compete with replicator tech, either.

LCR
2011-10-08, 10:27 AM
But just as there are Space Marines, the Imperium has its elite corps of administrators and clerks too. They're a lot less famous, because it's harder to make a tabletop game about someone efficiently handling a bureaucratic emergency.



I'd play that game.

Lamech
2011-10-08, 04:03 PM
Its going to be hard to compete with replicators and the like that ST has. For SW, have you seen Tatooine? Terraforming doesn't seem like one of the things they easily do. And simply do to the GRIMDARK of 40K I doubt they have terraforming powers up to ST.

So the terraforming contest I assume goes to ST. Especially if we are testing their efficiency. The other sides probably have more raw terraforming ability simply due to size, but ST will be the best at it for their size.

Curious
2011-10-08, 05:18 PM
I'd play that game.

You mean Chapter Master? There really is no way to win that game.

GolemsVoice
2011-10-08, 05:39 PM
Terraforming doesn't seem like one of the things they easily do. And simply do to the GRIMDARK of 40K I doubt they have terraforming powers up to ST.

Ib believe they DO have terraforming, and it IS used, it's just not as common, and probably not so efficient. And there's the whole technological dark age thing going on. Still, the Imperium knows pleasure planets, which are plantes designed to be beautiful, the planet-turned-holiday-resort to the planet-turned-megacity the Imperium so loves.

Now, as fast as I know, the usual process for developing worlds in W40K is: see if the world is habitable, and then throw colonists at it. They are then supposed to make it by themselves, the closer you are to the core worlds of your sector, the likelier it is that you will receive attantion.

So even if the Imperium puts all it's possible effort into transofmring a planet along peaceful ways, ST just outclasses them. This is probably the wet dream of whoever is in charge of colonisation: you get a world waiting for you, and somebody says: build the Utopia! Star Trek is all about this.

Genosaurer
2011-10-08, 06:15 PM
I think the word that hurts 40k the most is "efficiently". The Imperium has no concept of efficiency, just brute force getting things done.

Well, the grimdark exigencies of the Warhammer 40k setting do give the Imperium of Man some areas where they are actually the most efficient by necessity. Imperial Agri-Worlds are hyper-productive thanks to use of alien domesticated animals (like the Grox, which can be fed literally anything and is a lot more nutrient-dense than any Terran animal) and heavy genetic engineering of crops. Foods also look to be more heavily standardized across the Imperium of Man than in either of the other powers, where there's a ton of local variety - the Imperium seems to be more likely than the other powers to just bulldoze the entire local ecosystem in favor of a few super crops and livestock animals.

Any setting that turns their dead into Soylens Viridians instead of burying them is being efficient, albeit in a horrific manner.

The Galactic Empire and Imperium of Man both seem to colonize worlds that the United Federation of Planets would consider marginal or even avoid, as well; both Star Wars and Warhammer 40k appear to have a much higher density of populated worlds.

We know the Federation has access to terraforming technology and planetary weather-control systems, but the fact that they often seem to settle Class M (Earth-like) worlds instead of using those technologies might imply they're not cost-effective or there is some other downside to them.

GolemsVoice
2011-10-08, 06:23 PM
We know the Federation has access to terraforming technology and planetary weather-control systems, but the fact that they often seem to settle Class M (Earth-like) worlds instead of using those technologies might imply they're not cost-effective or there is some other downside to them.

From what I know, the Federation, or the whole ST universe, is a lot less populated than the other settings. Prehaps they can simply afford to look for Earth-class worlds rather than being forced to terraform worlds, which is certainly much more expensive.

Lamech
2011-10-08, 06:25 PM
We know the Federation has access to terraforming technology and planetary weather-control systems, but the fact that they often seem to settle Class M (Earth-like) worlds instead of using those technologies might imply they're not cost-effective or there is some other downside to them.
They're probably not cost effective. But compared to the cost of doing NOTHING, terraforming would have to be absurdly easy to be more cost effective then going two systems over (there do seem to be a rather lot of habitable planets in ST.)

byaku rai
2011-10-08, 10:04 PM
In the Horus Heresy book that focuses on the origin of the Dark Angels, Imperium agents are described as using enormous bulldozers to clear out the gigantic, dense forests and level the rough terrain to turn Caliban into a more habitable world. While directly adjusting things like climate seems to be something either beyond them or not worth the effort, they do have certain powers of terraforming. I mean, look at Forge Worlds. I can guarantee you they didn't start out that way.

To edit my previous statement, I think that on a single-world basis, Warhammer would be woefully inefficient, but if they focus everything on pure colonization, they will do it en masse, with plenty of bulldozers. Star Trek wins technologically because of the peaceful focus of their tech, but if WH throws enough colonists at enough worlds, you can bet that some will stick.

Thrawn183
2011-10-08, 11:31 PM
Don't forget, SW doesn't have to do much in the way of terraforming. They've got sentient being that can live in almost any environment. Quite the leg up.

The_Final_Stand
2011-10-09, 04:43 AM
That just makes it habitable for that species. We were more discussing making it habitable for humans.

I can't really think of much of the Imperium's planet habilitation tech. The Great Crusade was more about locating worlds which had been colonised by humans beforehand and making them "compliant", which either meant educating the inhabitants of the Imperial Truth or eradicating them and leaving the world for other colonists.

If the Imperium had any good habilitation tech, would death worlds exist? Or would they leave them so that the Badass gene can properly spread?

GolemsVoice
2011-10-09, 04:57 AM
A planet description in the Dark Heresy rulebook mentions a planet that is "riddled with the ruins of abandoned terraformers" because the planets "resists terraforming". It isn't exactly explained what that means, if these were actual terraformers able to change the planet, or if terraformer is just a fancy bulldozer like byaku rai mentioned. Also, in the Lexicanum entry for Imperial General Vance Stubbs it says:


If the Imperial Guard is victorious over all the other factions, General Stubbs and his men are declared heroes by the people of the Kaurava system. The system begins thriving again thanks to vast rebuilding, mining and terraforming projects.

Keep in mind that, while DoW has a truly questionable role in fluff, this is from current times in the Warhammer 40K universea, meaning that SOME measure of terraforming seems to still be available.

Fan
2011-10-09, 06:34 AM
That just makes it habitable for that species. We were more discussing making it habitable for humans.

I can't really think of much of the Imperium's planet habilitation tech. The Great Crusade was more about locating worlds which had been colonised by humans beforehand and making them "compliant", which either meant educating the inhabitants of the Imperial Truth or eradicating them and leaving the world for other colonists.

If the Imperium had any good habilitation tech, would death worlds exist? Or would they leave them so that the Badass gene can properly spread?

They are also great bait for enemies to attack, nothing can stand up to Catachan Jungle Fighters in their natural element.

Seriously just TRY To navigate a force of Chaos Space Marines through Catachan Territory.

Poor guys never stood a chance.

crazyhedgewizrd
2011-10-10, 05:51 PM
They are also great bait for enemies to attack, nothing can stand up to Catachan Jungle Fighters in their natural element.

Seriously just TRY To navigate a force of Chaos Space Marines through Catachan Territory.

Poor guys never stood a chance.

Wookiees would have a good chance against Catachan Jungle Fighters in Catachan territory.

if we are going to throw races around from different settings. I would like to suggest the Magog from the Andromeda setting, a race who have totally destroyed a galaxy.

this topic is going to go on forever, even on 40k forums the diehard fans can't decide if star wars ships and weapons are stronger or weaker than IoM ships and weapons.

The Glyphstone
2011-10-10, 06:43 PM
Wookiees would have a good chance against Catachan Jungle Fighters in Catachan territory.

if we are going to throw races around from different settings. I would like to suggest the Magog from the Andromeda setting, a race who have totally destroyed a galaxy.

this topic is going to go on forever, even on 40k forums the diehard fans can't decide if star wars ships and weapons are stronger or weaker than IoM ships and weapons.

That's why, as mentioned, we're trying to breathe new life by inventing scenarios and bringing in guest-stars to populate the scenarios, not adding a new side (such as these Magog). We'll run out of ideas pretty fast, but it's something new at least.

And yeah, Catachans vs. Wookies...on Catachan itself, I'd give it to the Jungle Fighters simply on the basis of home ground advantage, and the reverse on Kashykk (seriously, if you read up on the place, it's the closest thing Star Wars has to a Catachan-level death world, it's crazy). A neutral-ground, insanely vicious death jungle world would be an interesting fight.

crazyhedgewizrd
2011-10-10, 07:06 PM
That's why, as mentioned, we're trying to breathe new life by inventing scenarios and bringing in guest-stars to populate the scenarios, not adding a new side (such as these Magog). We'll run out of ideas pretty fast, but it's something new at least.

And yeah, Catachans vs. Wookies...on Catachan itself, I'd give it to the Jungle Fighters simply on the basis of home ground advantage, and the reverse on Kashykk (seriously, if you read up on the place, it's the closest thing Star Wars has to a Catachan-level death world, it's crazy). A neutral-ground, insanely vicious death jungle world would be an interesting fight.

i understand the scenario idea, but a lot of people would over look the finer details of said scenario. the Catachans vs Wookies can go either way just depending on resources and supply (edit and intelligence). Im not to sure how many jungle death worlds their are in star wars other than Kashykk.

With the teraforming debate, to what level are we talking about, a paradise world or a world that can sustain a human colony.

Urist
2011-10-10, 08:38 PM
The other advantage Wookies have is vast physical superiority over Catachans, being able to tear a mans arms out of their socket, lift them up and throw them around, etc. Kasshyyyk is definitely just about as deadly as Catachan, as well, containing a vast variety of dangerous species, arranged in a way which could be described as a layer-cake of death, with the dangerous species farther towards the bottom.

The Glyphstone
2011-10-10, 08:56 PM
The other advantage Wookies have is vast physical superiority over Catachans, being able to tear a mans arms out of their socket, lift them up and throw them around, etc. Kasshyyyk is definitely just about as deadly as Catachan, as well, containing a vast variety of dangerous species, arranged in a way which could be described as a layer-cake of death, with the dangerous species farther towards the bottom.

Catachans might be capable of doing that as well, actually - they're freakishly strong and overmuscled, to the point where they're not too far from being abhumans, and are often nicknamed 'baby Ogryns'. Death or Glory has two of them barely managing to hold back a pair of emergency bulkhead doors on a spaceship undergoing rapid decompression. Wookies may be stronger, but I wouldn't give them a very large margin if they are.

Forum Explorer
2011-10-11, 10:45 AM
Catachans might be capable of doing that as well, actually - they're freakishly strong and overmuscled, to the point where they're not too far from being abhumans, and are often nicknamed 'baby Ogryns'. Death or Glory has two of them barely managing to hold back a pair of emergency bulkhead doors on a spaceship undergoing rapid decompression. Wookies may be stronger, but I wouldn't give them a very large margin if they are.

Nah Wookies are much stronger. I'd put them at space marine strength or maybe even Ogryn. I'd still give the competition to the Catachans though because of how they approach a death world. The Wookies hide up top while the Catachans decide to prove themselves tougher then everything else.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 10:47 AM
The Wookies hide up top while the Catachans decide to prove themselves tougher then everything else.
Wookies have to venture into the lower layers to prove themselves worthy...
I think there was an albino Wookie who was SCREWED...

Forum Explorer
2011-10-11, 10:54 AM
Wookies have to venture into the lower layers to prove themselves worthy...
I think there was an albino Wookie who was SCREWED...

And there was a Catachan who went around killing Catachan Devils looking for a pair of boots :smallwink:

byaku rai
2011-10-11, 11:02 AM
Wookie technology seems to be generally somewhat below GE standard, which means the Catachans will have quite an edge unless it comes to a fistfight. I mean, bowcasters are nice, but they aren't hellguns.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 11:07 AM
And there was a Catachan who went around killing Catachan Devils looking for a pair of boots
That's nice.
What's a Catachan Devil?
:smallconfused:


Wookie technology seems to be generally somewhat below GE standard, which means the Catachans will have quite an edge unless it comes to a fistfight. I mean, bowcasters are nice, but they aren't hellguns.
They have hyperdrive, and the bowcasters fire multiple blaster bolts, not actual bolts...
They have access to the same techbology as most Star Wars factions and fantastic wealth at their disposal with their control of secret trade routes.

Selrahc
2011-10-11, 11:13 AM
What's a Catachan Devil?

Gribbly monster. Looks like a scorpion-centipede. Around the size of a train, although they get bigger and meaner with age. Is incredibly fast, and has instakill venom.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-11, 11:14 AM
The other advantage Wookies have is vast physical superiority over Catachans, being able to tear a mans arms out of their socket, lift them up and throw them around, etc. Kasshyyyk is definitely just about as deadly as Catachan, as well, containing a vast variety of dangerous species, arranged in a way which could be described as a layer-cake of death, with the dangerous species farther towards the bottom.

As Glyph pointed out, Catachans are freakishly strong. Maybe not Wookie strong, but I doubt it would be easy for them. They are also all incredibly deadly in hand-to-hand combat. If the Wookie tried to rip a Catachan's arm off, it would probably end up with 20-inches of knife in it's throat.

Also, I have yet to see anything that make Kashyyyk look anywhere near as a dangerous as an Imperium deathworld. What's so dangerous about it?


That's nice.
What's a Catachan Devil?
:smallconfused:

Nothing unusual for Catachan wildlife.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100608073235/warhammer40k/images/4/4e/CatachanDevil.jpg

Just a 30-meter long hell-centipede that is vicious, incredibly fast, and very, very poisonous.

Oh, and they come in packs.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 11:24 AM
Around the size of a train, although they get bigger and meaner with age. Is incredibly fast, and has instakill venom.

Just a 30-meter long hell-centipede that is vicious, incredibly fast, and very, very poisonous.
Oh man...


Oh, and they come in packs.
:smalleek:

byaku rai
2011-10-11, 11:25 AM
That's nice.
What's a Catachan Devil?
:smallconfused:


They have hyperdrive, and the bowcasters fire multiple blaster bolts, not actual bolts...
They have access to the same techbology as most Star Wars factions and fantastic wealth at their disposal with their control of secret trade routes.

To the first, see above. tl;dr: something you don't want to mess with. They're a daily annoyance to your average Catachan.

As to bowcasters, it's essentially a railgun or possibly gauss rifle that fires explosive bolts. Like a bolter, but less efficient. *source: illustrated encyclopedia. And it may be just me, but they certainly seem primitive compared to other species...

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 11:41 AM
As to bowcasters, it's essentially a railgun or possibly gauss rifle that fires explosive bolts. Like a bolter, but less efficient. *source: illustrated encyclopedia. And it may be just me, but they certainly seem primitive compared to other species...
I'm pretty sure it's a stylistic choice...

"The bowcasters were clip-loaded with usually six explosive bolts per clip. However some Wookiees developed a bowcaster that fired pure blaster bolts and no clip was required"
"While decreasingly effective beyond 30 meters, the bowcaster was more powerful and accurate than typical blaster weapons. Some bowcasters could load multiple quarrels to create a spread-fire effect, further enhancing their close range effectiveness, while others could fire specially charged bolts that could ricochet off certain surfaces. They also shot pure bolts that were not engulfed in energy. These would sometimes have poison tips or explosive tips."

Source: Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bowcaster)

Forum Explorer
2011-10-11, 11:45 AM
As Glyph pointed out, Catachans are freakishly strong. Maybe not Wookie strong, but I doubt it would be easy for them. They are also all incredibly deadly in hand-to-hand combat. If the Wookie tried to rip a Catachan's arm off, it would probably end up with 20-inches of knife in it's throat.



.

Now this I agree with. Catachan have got actual close combat training and a life time of fighting nasty monsters.

Urist
2011-10-11, 01:00 PM
Wookies also have experience fighting gribblies, ranging from Kashyyykian Giant Weavers(huge spiders capable of tracking their prey for kilometers, orchestrating ambushes, etc.) to Walluga's(large, four legged herd animals,standing half again as tall as a Wookie and capable of stomping them into the ground), to the Wyyyschokk(weabweavers, other intelligent spiders so dangerous they have never been adequately observed,as any living creature or droid observer sent ot observe them was ambushed and torn apart in minutes).

Wookies are also required, a rite of passage, to travel to the Shadowlands, the most dangerous areas of Kashyyyk, alone, in order to survive for days or weeks with with no support. At around twelve years old. Wookies are no strangers to gribblies.

The Reverend
2011-10-11, 06:01 PM
if the battle takes longer than 45 minutes whoever is fighting the trekkies is (cant type this word). They will copy the tech, cure the implant/virus/symbiot/, back engineer it, copy it, and make a better copy. You loose all advantages if you either let starfleet scan you, ha better be at a distance greater than 23 light years when you attack, or leave behind wrekage, bodies, or residue or probably just bullet holes and burn marks.

byaku rai
2011-10-11, 06:05 PM
if the battle takes longer than 45 minutes whoever is fighting the trekkies is (cant type this word). They will copy the tech, cure the implant/virus/symbiot/, back engineer it, copy it, and make a better copy. You loose all advantages if you either let starfleet scan you, ha better be at a distance greater than 23 light years when you attack, or leave behind wrekage, bodies, or residue or probably just bullet holes and burn marks.

I'm going to assume this is a joke. :smalltongue: While the Federation is certainly capable of reverse engineering the other sides' tech (with the possible exception of Warp drives and other pseudomagical things such as the Imperium is wont to use), they still must have enough time to do so, something which neither of the other sides is likely to give them.

We're currently discussing smaller "monster of the week" scenarios. The one up right now is who's better at fighting in a jungle, Wookies or Catachans.

Weezer
2011-10-11, 06:16 PM
I'd say Wookies are naturally more adapted to surviving in deathworlds but that Catachans know their world well enough that they'd beat anyone on their home turf. So whichever one is fighting on their own world will win and if they're fighting on a random deathworld that isn't Catachan or Kashyyk then the wookies will win. Defenders advantage in jungle situations is not to be underestimated, even in Earth jungles. I'd give examples but politics and all that jazz.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 06:23 PM
if the battle takes longer than 45 minutes whoever is fighting the trekkies is (cant type this word). They will copy the tech, cure the implant/virus/symbiot/, back engineer it, copy it, and make a better copy. You loose all advantages if you either let starfleet scan you, ha better be at a distance greater than 23 light years when you attack, or leave behind wrekage, bodies, or residue or probably just bullet holes and burn marks.

You've got three threads worth of content and argument to consider before you can walk in here making those kind of claims...
Even assuming the Federation COULD adapt that technology, and the other two factiosn woudl give them the time, would they have the stomachs to use it?


We're currently discussing smaller "monster of the week" scenarios. The one up right now is who's better at fighting in a jungle, Wookies or Catachans.
Working on getting you those comics...


I'd say Wookies are naturally more adapted to surviving in deathworlds but that Catachans know their world well enough that they'd beat anyone on their home turf. So whichever one is fighting on their own world will win and if they're fighting on a random deathworld that isn't Catachan or Kashyyk then the wookies will win. Defenders advantage in jungle situations is not to be underestimated, even in Earth jungles. I'd give examples but politics and all that jazz.
So...

Wookie on Catachan is screwed.
Anybody else on Catachan is screwed worse than a Wookie?

Sounds good to me.

Weezer
2011-10-11, 06:35 PM
So...

Wookie on Catachan is screwed.
Anybody else on Catachan is screwed worse than a Wookie?

Sounds good to me.

Exactly. There are threats on Catachan that if you are unaware of both their existence and how to approach them will kill you. Period. It doesn't matter your gear or if you're a 7 foot tall clawed monster, you'll die. Who would expect a giant toad to randomly explode? But the same goes for the other way around, a group of Catachans would be ambushed and ripped apart by the intelligent spiders or some other monster on Kashyyyk, simply because they were unaware of the threats they'd face.

The Reverend
2011-10-11, 06:37 PM
pro star trek

three words.

Weaponized Holodeck Technology

The Reverend
2011-10-11, 06:38 PM
oh and lets not forget the legions of slave labor the Feds have ready. Holodeck people.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 06:43 PM
pro star trek
Equates to "pro redundant argument"...


Weaponized Holodeck Technology

oh and lets not forget the legions of slave labor the Feds have ready. Holodeck people.
And three words is hardly enough to convince us of a total victory for a faction that can't even travel across a fraction of its own galaxy, hasn't got the stones to destroy planets, and is dwarfed by criminal elements of the other two factions.
The Hutts and/or Black Sun could defeat the Federation...
And no amount of projection can compare to very very real droid foundries or the dedicated factory worlds of the Imperium.

Forum Explorer
2011-10-11, 07:14 PM
pro star trek

three words.

Weaponized Holodeck Technology

This may surprise you but yes in the last 150 pages of arguments this point was brought up and discussed.

Weezer
2011-10-11, 07:27 PM
This may surprise you but yes in the last 150 pages of arguments this point was brought up and discussed.

And largely dismissed because the Federation has never shown the slightest inclination to make this type of warfare at all common.

The Reverend
2011-10-11, 08:54 PM
Ok so the feds, the empire of man, and the galactic empire suddenly become in contact with each other. Who would the empire of Man prioritize? Who would the galactic empire prioritize? The other incredibly resource rich, industrialized and also incredibly, impossibly, gigantically large empire or this small political unit that would fit in your smallest pocket with room to spare even if its technology is not only on par with yours but advancing at a ever increasing rate?

I think the empires would be so busy tearing into each other that the federation would not even be a foot note and would be the equivalent of Finland in WW2, Too much trouble.

byaku rai
2011-10-11, 08:59 PM
Ok so the feds, the empire of man, and the galactic empire suddenly become in contact with each other. Who would the empire of Man prioritize? Who would the galactic empire prioritize? The other incredibly resource rich, industrialized and also incredibly, impossibly, gigantically large empire or this small political unit that would fit in your smallest pocket with room to spare even if its technology is not only on par with yours but advancing at a ever increasing rate?

I think the empires would be so busy tearing into each other that the federation would not even be a foot note and would be the equivalent of Finland in WW2, Too much trouble.

And yes, that was mentioned too. And discussed, at length. Three threads, dude. We're pretty thorough, even by nerd standards. It was concluded that their territory being so small, it would be quite easy for the other two to miss them, and that their only hope was to be as unnoticeable as possible. If either of the two sleeping giants wakes long enough to wave a hand in the direction of the Federation of Planets, they will be annihilated in the most literal sense of the word.

The Reverend
2011-10-11, 10:01 PM
K so what u guys got left?
Data v Solo in a card game who wins?

Over a limited number of games I'd bet on Han, over the long run Data without question

Weezer
2011-10-11, 10:29 PM
K so what u guys got left?
Data v Solo in a card game who wins?

Over a limited number of games I'd bet on Han, over the long run Data without question

I think it matters the game. If it's a game that neither of them know, then Data will win certainly. If it's Sabaac, then probably Han, simply because of his renown at the sabaac table.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 10:36 PM
I think it matters the game. If it's a game that neither of them know, then Data will win certainly. If it's Sabaac, then probably Han, simply because of his renown at the sabaac table.
Has Han ever won with the Fools Array? Or was that just Bane?

Weezer
2011-10-11, 11:04 PM
Has Han ever won with the Fools Array? Or was that just Bane?

Umm I have no idea what that means? All that comes to mind when you say Bane is Batman, but that just seems wrong...

dgnslyr
2011-10-11, 11:15 PM
Great, now I see Bane sitting down, playing chess, and thoughtfully scratching his chin as he contemplates his next move. Possibly wearing a top hat, suit and monocle.

profitofrage
2011-10-11, 11:24 PM
Wow...I havnt been here in a long LONG time and this is still going?
If you see my posts in the first thread its clear im pro 40k all the way (sorry but i cant see star wars topping a setting that was made to deliberatly crap on all others)

Could we have a summary of things weve concluded? things that are currently contested? I reckon one of those could probably stave off alot of the "BUT WHAT ABOUT _____" that pop up from the Trek advocates.

Similarly was it finally concluded that 40k wins space engagements? I rage quit that one because every time we agreed 40k weaponry was a tier above in terms of power it would somehow slip back for no particularly good reason.

Weezer
2011-10-11, 11:45 PM
I'm pretty sure the conclusion was 40K>SW>>>>ST. I won't rehash the arguments because I'm too lazy and they really didnt change since you left. We're mostly quashing any points that are brought up by saying that their point was brought up and discussed in the previous 4500+ posts. So no ongoing debate in that area.

Now we've moved on to specific (and often silly) scenarios pitting either small groups of each faction (ex Enterprise Bridge crew vs SW main protagonists in a race to find andretrieve a macguffin) or adding new factions and figuring out which of th 3 would deal with it best (ex xenomorphs from Alien).

And yes, I too share your surprise...

profitofrage
2011-10-11, 11:51 PM
Ah fantastic, im glad thats over with I can finally have a good nights sleep.

What I would really like to know, is how many cosmic horrors the Star trek universe would have to run into before they started thinking the Imperium of man maybe has a good reason to have exterminatus protocols

Weezer
2011-10-11, 11:56 PM
Ah fantastic, im glad thats over with I can finally have a good nights sleep.

What I would really like to know, is how many cosmic horrors the Star trek universe would have to run into before they started thinking the Imperium of man maybe has a good reason to have exterminatus protocols

Well we know that the maximum needed would be to plop them down in the 40K universe. That would make even the hippiest Starfleet officer convert to the way of exterminatus (assuming they aren't wiped out by an enslaver plague or a genestealer infestation first). As for the minimum, I really don't know. I think it would be a lot, they didn't pull out all the stops, war crimes wise, when they were fighting an existential war against the Dominion and there are a large number of relatively nasty alien species in the ST universe and they don't have this policy.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-11, 11:57 PM
Umm I have no idea what that means?

Sabacc is an ultra complicated game of poker, where the value of some of the cards in your hand actually changes electronically between rounds...
The rarest hand is called the Fools Array...
The Joker, a 2 and a 1.



All that comes to mind when you say Bane is Batman, but that just seems wrong...

Great, now I see Bane sitting down, playing chess, and thoughtfully scratching his chin as he contemplates his next move. Possibly wearing a top hat, suit and monocle.
DARTH Bane!
He was the Sith Lord who began the Rule of Two, the tradition that governed the Sith up to Sidious and Vader. He literally remade the Sith into what we see in the movies.
He was a great visionary.
And he started off as a miner, and I think he won a game of sabacc with the Fools Array...
Or was that how Han won the Falcon...

The Fools Array is like putting together the Joker, a 2 and an Ace to win Black Jack.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 12:16 AM
OH I have a good one I think.

Genestealers, they were essentially Xenomorphs, but ove the years got extra fluff shoved into them.

Essentially they are an incredible threat to the imperium of man due to the primary fact that readily available fullbody scans are rare. Whats more is that the Imperium has HUNDREDS of places rouge factions can not only hide, but thrive.
This substrain of Tyranid is also the most famous for quick adaptation and extreme intellegance when it comes to subterfuge.

My question is...how would the Genestealers go about infecting the Star Trek universe, where bioscans e.t.c are commonplace?

Weezer
2011-10-12, 12:25 AM
Sabacc is an ultra complicated game of poker, where the value of some of the cards in your hand actually changes electronically between rounds...
The rarest hand is called the Fools Array...
The Joker, a 2 and a 1.



DARTH Bane!
He was the Sith Lord who began the Rule of Two, the tradition that governed the Sith up to Sidious and Vader. He literally remade the Sith into what we see in the movies.
He was a great visionary.
And he started off as a miner, and I think he won a game of sabacc with the Fools Array...
Or was that how Han won the Falcon...

The Fools Array is like putting together the Joker, a 2 and an Ace to win Black Jack.

I was aware of sabacc, being the person who brought it up, just hadn't heard of the Idiot's Array (according to the wiki that's what it's called). Also according to the wiki Darth Bane (kicking myself for not remembering him) got the Idiot's Array at the same time the person he was playing against got it. Sounds like one of those ridiculous "coincidences" authors like to pull out when writing about gambling.

Ninjadeadbeard
2011-10-12, 12:31 AM
DARTH Bane!


Or Cad Bane, the Duros bounty hunter. He's the only cool thing to happen in The Clone Wars CGI series.

Genosaurer
2011-10-12, 01:32 AM
Could we have a summary of things weve concluded? things that are currently contested?

Very little has really been concluded, although that doesn't stop people from claiming otherwise.

In space, Warhammer 40k warships pretty clearly have an advantage in brute power, but there are massive holes in their capabilities that proponents of the setting cheerfully gloss over, and both Star Trek and Star Wars have specific tools that could be used to exploit those weaknesses.

On the ground, Warhammer 40k is pretty clearly superior.

Overall outcome, there are a lot of questions that to my mind haven't been answered enough to say a conclusion was reached. Like "how do those arguing for an easy Warhammer 40k victory see the Imperium of Man digesting a Galactic Empire which is nearly seventy times their size, even provided they win all the battles?", "What are the internal effects this scenario will have on the governments and societies of the various powers?", or "How do the factions even find each other, and how long does that take?"


My question is...how would the Genestealers go about infecting the Star Trek universe, where bioscans e.t.c are commonplace?

Starfleet in its own setting barely avoided a takeover by Neural Parasites (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Neural_parasite_%2824th_century%29), which have a similar modus operandi but a much more limited bag of tricks, and the Federation also proved pretty much completely incapable of identifying Changeling (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Changeling) infiltrators. Genestealers would have a field day.

Parra
2011-10-12, 02:26 AM
My question is...how would the Genestealers go about infecting the Star Trek universe, where bioscans e.t.c are commonplace?

By simply walking up to the Federation and saying "Hi we a the new Species of the Week, we come in peace and would like to be your friends" (assuming Genestealers can talk)

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-12, 05:09 AM
In space, Warhammer 40k warships pretty clearly have an advantage in brute power, but there are massive holes in their capabilities that proponents of the setting cheerfully gloss over, and both Star Trek and Star Wars have specific tools that could be used to exploit those weaknesses.

Such as? Genuinely curious. 40k is pretty decent with sticking close to realistic ranges. Star Wars and Star Trek don't really do that, from what I can see.


Like "how do those arguing for an easy Warhammer 40k victory see the Imperium of Man digesting a Galactic Empire which is nearly seventy times their size, even provided they win all the battles?",

Galactic Empire has one and a half million worlds that are actually fully under their control. There are a further 69 million "colonies, protectorates, and puppet states", none of which can contribute to a war effort. Actually trying to drain resources out of those types of states during a war would be a really good way to get a regime change, which will almost certainly succeed, given that you can't divert troops to put it down. And given that the Empire's worlds seemed pretty eager to get out of it in canon, I can't help but imagine that some of that is going to start going draining away once the Empire starts facing serious, heavy-duty opposition.

The Imperium has at least a million worlds, and is optimized from the get-go for warfare. Their citizens also tend to be super-indoctrinated. While worlds do rebel, I can't see it being a big problem for them.

I'd say they're fairly even. The Empire has more worlds, but the Imperium has more manufacturing capability with what they have and already has a wartime infrastructure in place on every level.

The Imperium starts out with the advantage, because they are already entirely built around constant warfare. I believe the rules states that the other factions don't matter, so they can devote all of their resources to this war.

Really depends on how fast the Empire can ramp up production and how fast the Imperium can bring their might to bear.


"What are the internal effects this scenario will have on the governments and societies of the various powers?", or "How do the factions even find each other, and how long does that take?"

Hm. Not as familiar with the Empire, but for the Imperium, the existence of humans elsewhere would be a major theological sticking point. They would probably end up trying to convert the humans of Star Wars and cleanse them of their association with the Xenos.

People who use the Force are going to be labeled psykers, regardless of how the actual metaphysics works. The Callidus are going to be all up in Sidious' face as soon as they learn a Force adept is the ruler of the Empire.

Ultimately, I don't think a lot would change for the average citizen. There's a new enemy on the block, even if they turn out to be humans. Nothing the Imperium hasn't had to deal with before.

No idea how they find each other. Warp portal?

Fan
2011-10-12, 05:46 AM
Such as? Genuinely curious. 40k is pretty decent with sticking close to realistic ranges. Star Wars and Star Trek don't really do that, from what I can see.



Galactic Empire has one and a half million worlds that are actually fully under their control. There are a further 69 million "colonies, protectorates, and puppet states", none of which can contribute to a war effort. Actually trying to drain resources out of those types of states during a war would be a really good way to get a regime change, which will almost certainly succeed, given that you can't divert troops to put it down. And given that the Empire's worlds seemed pretty eager to get out of it in canon, I can't help but imagine that some of that is going to start going draining away once the Empire starts facing serious, heavy-duty opposition.

The Imperium has at least a million worlds, and is optimized from the get-go for warfare. Their citizens also tend to be super-indoctrinated. While worlds do rebel, I can't see it being a big problem for them.

I'd say they're fairly even. The Empire has more worlds, but the Imperium has more manufacturing capability with what they have and already has a wartime infrastructure in place on every level.

The Imperium starts out with the advantage, because they are already entirely built around constant warfare. I believe the rules states that the other factions don't matter, so they can devote all of their resources to this war.

Really depends on how fast the Empire can ramp up production and how fast the Imperium can bring their might to bear.



Hm. Not as familiar with the Empire, but for the Imperium, the existence of humans elsewhere would be a major theological sticking point. They would probably end up trying to convert the humans of Star Wars and cleanse them of their association with the Xenos.

People who use the Force are going to be labeled psykers, regardless of how the actual metaphysics works. The Callidus are going to be all up in Sidious' face as soon as they learn a Force adept is the ruler of the Empire.

Ultimately, I don't think a lot would change for the average citizen. There's a new enemy on the block, even if they turn out to be humans. Nothing the Imperium hasn't had to deal with before.

No idea how they find each other. Warp portal?


Actually, there are sources which state that the Imperium of Man is the Lord of over a BILLION worlds, and millions of colonies.

There's also the issues of the worlds with Titan Works (the most recent of which having been brought up in the Space Marine Game, which had a Titan constructed in a little under an hour from nothing.), and how they would fair being dropped into Imperial Territory.

So my proposed situation.

An Imperator, backed by 2 Warmongers, a flight of Valkyrie Gunships (Assume Vendetta's, and Lightning / Thunderbolt fighters are present as well.), and 3 Guardsmen legions storm the Imperial Palace in full battle gear with additional armor support in the form of air dropped basilisks, and Leman Russ's and it's variants (assume enough of each are prevalent to be pertinent.) Malcador's with their Inferno Cannons are also present along with any other viable armor. The Space Marines have yet to reach this world due to being held by Planetary defenses on the outer rim of the system which they jumped in too far away to be able to avoid. It will be at least one week till they arrive under best conditions, a month at worst due to heavy resistance throughout the entire system. The

For the sake of the argument the space battle is so intense that orbital bombardments are not an option, and the Storm Trooper legions are present as stated in Wookiepedia, along with their armored support, a full wing of Tie Fighters (Assuming no Tie Interceptors are available, however Tie Bombers are present in numbers enough to be viable.) along with AT AT, and AT ST, and Hover Tank collumns to back them up Jet, dark, various other "Special" troopers are not present in large enough numbers to be a concern in this, and the Imperial Intelligence Agency is elsewhere doing it's sneaky business, they are fully entrenched, and have equal numbers to the Imperial Guardsmen, BUT are not aware of any secret passages or warp powers the Psyker Primaris that the Imperial Guard have even exist due to efficient propaganda and a desire to crush even the IDEA of force adepts.

Imperial reinforcements are tied up for the same duration that Space Marine forces are due to a freak warp storm (Similar to that of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath that destroyed Vandire during the rain of blood.) that is somehow blocking hyper space travel.


Who wins in this straight up battle, The Stormtrooper forces have the benefit of Darth Vader, and Palpatine being present on the battlefield for them, but leading the ground forces is Usakar E. Creed himself, with the frontline Commisar's being Gaunt and Cain, so morale will be an issue for neither side, Yarrick we will assume is off someone beating the snotlings out of the nearest ork like object he can find.

No interference from space, no interference from special plot devices, or force adepts besides Main Triology Darth Vader, and Palpatine, no random Baneblade teleportation from Creed except where reasonable, and we may assume that the Imperial Palace has been outfitted with shields, and had it's purpose upgraded to a fortress during the millenia of war it took to get this far.

Parra
2011-10-12, 06:04 AM
Such as? Genuinely curious. 40k is pretty decent with sticking close to realistic ranges. Star Wars and Star Trek don't really do that, from what I can see.

As you asked nicely :smallwink:
Note: this is all comapred to ST only

Speed:
While undoubtably faster cross-galaxy traveling, their in-combat speed and maneauverabilty is woeful.
While the 40k ships have been shown a handul of times reaching 0.5-075c speeds while traveling through a system their combat speeds are a tiny fraction of that (around 0.02-0.05c if I recall correctly).
The Feds can, and do, whizz around at ~0.25c with ease and performing mindboggling maneuvers at those speeds. Being 10 times faster and infinatly more agile than your oppoent has its advantages.

The arguement against the Feds is that speed advantage means squat for 2 reasons.
Firstly you still need to defend a point in space i.e. a planet. So to a degree you are bogged down to a local fight.
Secondly and still quite argueable imo, inabilty to destroy the ships.

Weaponry:
Its well documented how powerful and the range of the ship weapons in 40k are. They cap out around 400k for their torps and a little under half that for lance batteries (i think). Nova Cannons exceed that 400k range, but are subject to other firing restrictions that should make them easy to avoid.

Trek weapons on the other hand are a little harder to pin down. On paper, and as spoken by the characters Torps have a range of about 350k and phasors about 100k. As shown on screen, both have a range of about 1km
The arguement there of course is that it is an issue with showing "gripping space combat" on screen and thus shortening the ranges.
Realisticly (for a given definition of real) the larger ranges are more likely.

In terms of relative weapon power its hard to guage the strength of a phasor as little visual or technical information is available, but given the leathality of close range combat v's the IoM then its not something that actually matters as you dont want to be that close anyway.
Torps however are another matter. A standard Quantum torpedo (an upgrade to the Photon torpedo that became common late in the Dominion War) is very roughly equal in destructive power, to a planet surface, as a single Lance Battery Strike. If required the Quantum torpedo yeild can be increased, but we will ignore that for this discussion.
As its shown, on screen, to take roughly 4-5 Quantum torps to destroy an average Fed ship, we can postulate that it would take 4-5 Lance battery strikes to destroy a fed Ship.
On the flipside I think it would take in the region of 60-100 Quantum Torps (exact numbers are back in the previous thread) to destroy a decent sized IoM capital ship.

Armour
Fed Ships are made from paper, IoM ships from superdupertanium. In a straight blow by blow fight the Feds lose ships fast

Fleets:
By the very nature setting the 40k universe has never, nor will ever, put an exact number on the IoM ships. Suffice to say that to control the size of there territory and to wage war constantly the numbers would easily be 100k+
In comparison the Feds have (by the end of the dominion war) 12+ fleets of roughly 600 ships each. So 7-8k ships. Chances are that in any given large engagement only 1 of those fleets will be involved.

Fleet encounters:
The big question here is if the Federation Fleet can make smart use of its vastly superior speed and agility to maintain sufficent distance so as to avoid IoM Lance Batteries while keeping in range of there own Quantum Torps and avoiding the comparatively slow IoM Torps and thus slowly whitle the vast enemy fleet down.

In a vast open region of space with the freedom to move around freely and enough time to fight, I would actually give this to the Feds. However this is also a fairly unlikely scenario.

The more likely battlefield would be as the IoM fleet was approaching a Federation planet. In this scenario the Feds are on the clock to destroy enough of the Vast IoM fleet before they reached the planet. Once the planet is reached the IoM can land ground forces and its game over for that planet.

The question then becomes can 600 Fed ships, using tactics outlined above, destroy (almost completly) a IoM fleet that would likely number in the thousands before that fleet made planetfall?

The likely answer is: No they couldnt stop the entire fleet, they would however inflict alot of damage to that fleet by the time it could put boots on the ground (or cause exterminatus). It then comes back to a war of attrition; Can the 150 odd Fed worlds produce sufficent Ships to compete the 1,000,000 worlds the IoM can call on.
Even accounting for replicator tech causing Fed worlds to be 100 times better at production than an IoM world, they are still vastly outnumbered.

Forum Explorer
2011-10-12, 06:35 AM
Sadly I can see Star Wars losing space battles to Star Trek easily enough. Many sources put the Star Wars range at a few dozen kilometers and have their ships shields go down from a single flight of bombers, even suffering critical damage in the process.

The Glyphstone
2011-10-12, 06:39 AM
New scenario:

The Borg Fleet, versus a Tyranid Hive Fleet. They start at opposite ends of the Galactic Empire. When the dust, assimilation nanotubes, and devoured biomass settles (I.e., they finally meet each other), who will have consumed a larger portion of the Empire? The Empire, on the defensive, is at the peak of its strength (since there are no pesky rebels to interfere), but it also has to split its strength, fleets, and commanders between two simultaneous fronts.

Parra
2011-10-12, 06:48 AM
Assuming the Borg are not dumbed down like they were in Voyager and they have the very clear goal of complete galatic domination via assimilation and with the Win condition being purely who assimilates more by the time they finally meet I give this to the Borg.

For one simple reason: Speed.
Of all the factions in the STverse the Borg are by far the fastest. Using both convential Warp Engines and Transwarp drive (assuming they dont create any transwarp nexus) they can cross the ST galaxy in a few short years.

By comparison the Tyranids are painfully slow, taking decades-centuries to travel around the place.
I could see the Borg having 90%+ of the GE by the time it was down to just the 2 of them.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 07:23 AM
As you asked nicely :smallwink:
Note: this is all comapred to ST only

Speed:
While undoubtably faster cross-galaxy traveling, their in-combat speed and maneauverabilty is woeful.
While the 40k ships have been shown a handul of times reaching 0.5-075c speeds while traveling through a system their combat speeds are a tiny fraction of that (around 0.02-0.05c if I recall correctly).
The Feds can, and do, whizz around at ~0.25c with ease and performing mindboggling maneuvers at those speeds. Being 10 times faster and infinatly more agile than your oppoent has its advantages.

The arguement against the Feds is that speed advantage means squat for 2 reasons.
Firstly you still need to defend a point in space i.e. a planet. So to a degree you are bogged down to a local fight.
Secondly and still quite argueable imo, inabilty to destroy the ships.

Weaponry:
Its well documented how powerful and the range of the ship weapons in 40k are. They cap out around 400k for their torps and a little under half that for lance batteries (i think). Nova Cannons exceed that 400k range, but are subject to other firing restrictions that should make them easy to avoid.

Trek weapons on the other hand are a little harder to pin down. On paper, and as spoken by the characters Torps have a range of about 350k and phasors about 100k. As shown on screen, both have a range of about 1km
The arguement there of course is that it is an issue with showing "gripping space combat" on screen and thus shortening the ranges.
Realisticly (for a given definition of real) the larger ranges are more likely.

In terms of relative weapon power its hard to guage the strength of a phasor as little visual or technical information is available, but given the leathality of close range combat v's the IoM then its not something that actually matters as you dont want to be that close anyway.
Torps however are another matter. A standard Quantum torpedo (an upgrade to the Photon torpedo that became common late in the Dominion War) is very roughly equal in destructive power, to a planet surface, as a single Lance Battery Strike. If required the Quantum torpedo yeild can be increased, but we will ignore that for this discussion.
As its shown, on screen, to take roughly 4-5 Quantum torps to destroy an average Fed ship, we can postulate that it would take 4-5 Lance battery strikes to destroy a fed Ship.
On the flipside I think it would take in the region of 60-100 Quantum Torps (exact numbers are back in the previous thread) to destroy a decent sized IoM capital ship.

Armour
Fed Ships are made from paper, IoM ships from superdupertanium. In a straight blow by blow fight the Feds lose ships fast

Fleets:
By the very nature setting the 40k universe has never, nor will ever, put an exact number on the IoM ships. Suffice to say that to control the size of there territory and to wage war constantly the numbers would easily be 100k+
In comparison the Feds have (by the end of the dominion war) 12+ fleets of roughly 600 ships each. So 7-8k ships. Chances are that in any given large engagement only 1 of those fleets will be involved.

Fleet encounters:
The big question here is if the Federation Fleet can make smart use of its vastly superior speed and agility to maintain sufficent distance so as to avoid IoM Lance Batteries while keeping in range of there own Quantum Torps and avoiding the comparatively slow IoM Torps and thus slowly whitle the vast enemy fleet down.

In a vast open region of space with the freedom to move around freely and enough time to fight, I would actually give this to the Feds. However this is also a fairly unlikely scenario.

The more likely battlefield would be as the IoM fleet was approaching a Federation planet. In this scenario the Feds are on the clock to destroy enough of the Vast IoM fleet before they reached the planet. Once the planet is reached the IoM can land ground forces and its game over for that planet.

The question then becomes can 600 Fed ships, using tactics outlined above, destroy (almost completly) a IoM fleet that would likely number in the thousands before that fleet made planetfall?

The likely answer is: No they couldnt stop the entire fleet, they would however inflict alot of damage to that fleet by the time it could put boots on the ground (or cause exterminatus). It then comes back to a war of attrition; Can the 150 odd Fed worlds produce sufficent Ships to compete the 1,000,000 worlds the IoM can call on.
Even accounting for replicator tech causing Fed worlds to be 100 times better at production than an IoM world, they are still vastly outnumbered.



Sorry for the above repost. Stupid thing keeps quoting all that and I'm using a phone so it takes too long to delete all that.

My question is.......are we using ST books as well as the tv/movies or just the tv/movies? i assume books are ok as I've seen several SW book references and well 40K is almost all written material. Just wanted some clarity. Thanks.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 07:24 AM
Assuming the Borg are not dumbed down like they were in Voyager and they have the very clear goal of complete galatic domination via assimilation and with the Win condition being purely who assimilates more by the time they finally meet I give this to the Borg.

For one simple reason: Speed.
Of all the factions in the STverse the Borg are by far the fastest. Using both convential Warp Engines and Transwarp drive (assuming they dont create any transwarp nexus) they can cross the ST galaxy in a few short years.

By comparison the Tyranids are painfully slow, taking decades-centuries to travel around the place.
I could see the Borg having 90%+ of the GE by the time it was down to just the 2 of them.


As a major 40k fanboy...i have to give this to the Borg.
Sure in a one on one fight, id side with the Tyranids due to there nature, but since this is a race to see who can consume the most the Tyranids are REDICULOUSLY SLOW.

I could try and argue that the Tyranids would consume the Star wars verse faster because there not "cautious of the eye of terror or the astronomicon" but frankly theres no evidence to say they dont do this same approach to every galaxy they surround.

The only point that might change the result is strength. There is NOTHING comparable to the vast numbers of the Tyranid threat in star wars. were talking planetary subjugation in less then a week or so. But this still doesnt make up for the Tyranids only BARELY traveling at faster then light speeds half the time.

Actually, to bring up Genestealers again, are they included? because Genestealers ARE clever enough to use Imperial tech to move there brood around. If genestealer subjugation counts in terms of "Area nommed" then the race could become much much closer.

EDIT FOR ABOVE:
It's not so much "sure books are totally in" as more "if the book itself doesnt completly contradict whats commonly considered the fluff, then its in.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-12, 07:41 AM
In space, Warhammer 40k warships pretty clearly have an advantage in brute power, but there are massive holes in their capabilities that proponents of the setting cheerfully gloss over, and both Star Trek and Star Wars have specific tools that could be used to exploit those weaknesses.

Such as? Genuinely curious. 40k is pretty decent with sticking close to realistic ranges. Star Wars and Star Trek don't really do that, from what I can see.
QFT
Please have examples or a source rather than wild-eyed fervor.


"What are the internal effects this scenario will have on the governments and societies of the various powers?", or "How do the factions even find each other, and how long does that take?"
We did this. Early in the first thread...

EDIT: Both Imperium and Empire's declare war...
Palpatine craps his pants and sees how he himself can make the best of the situation...
The Federation is really in trouble because they are a peaceful faction who' version of the military is actually unarmored scientists with scouting vessels?
The Federation can't do what it takes to win this war, and still remain the Federation, it'll tear itself apart if it resorts to conscription, destroying planets, and other things to survive.



So my proposed situation.
n Imperator, backed by 2 Warmongers, a flight of Valkyrie Gunships (Assume Vendetta's, and Lightning / Thunderbolt fighters are present as well.), and 3 Guardsmen legions storm the Imperial Palace in full battle gear with additional armor support in the form of air dropped basilisks, and Leman Russ's and it's variants (assume enough of each are prevalent to be pertinent.) Malcador's with their Inferno Cannons are also present along with any other viable armor. The Space Marines have yet to reach this world due to being held by Planetary defenses on the outer rim of the system which they jumped in too far away to be able to avoid. It will be at least one week till they arrive under best conditions, a month at worst due to heavy resistance throughout the entire system. The

For the sake of the argument the space battle is so intense that orbital bombardments are not an option, and the Storm Trooper legions are present as stated in Wookiepedia, along with their armored support, a full wing of Tie Fighters (Assuming no Tie Interceptors are available, however Tie Bombers are present in numbers enough to be viable.) along with AT AT, and AT ST, and Hover Tank collumns to back them up Jet, dark, various other "Special" troopers are not present in large enough numbers to be a concern in this, and the Imperial Intelligence Agency is elsewhere doing it's sneaky business, they are fully entrenched, and have equal numbers to the Imperial Guardsmen, BUT are not aware of any secret passages or warp powers the Psyker Primaris that the Imperial Guard have even exist due to efficient propaganda and a desire to crush even the IDEA of force adepts.

Imperial reinforcements are tied up for the same duration that Space Marine forces are due to a freak warp storm (Similar to that of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath that destroyed Vandire during the rain of blood.) that is somehow blocking hyper space travel.


Who wins in this straight up battle, The Stormtrooper forces have the benefit of Darth Vader, and Palpatine being present on the battlefield for them, but leading the ground forces is Usakar E. Creed himself, with the frontline Commisar's being Gaunt and Cain, so morale will be an issue for neither side, Yarrick we will assume is off someone beating the snotlings out of the nearest ork like object he can find.

No interference from space, no interference from special plot devices, or force adepts besides Main Triology Darth Vader, and Palpatine, no random Baneblade teleportation from Creed except where reasonable, and we may assume that the Imperial Palace has been outfitted with shields, and had it's purpose upgraded to a fortress during the millenia of war it took to get this far.


New scenario:
The Borg Fleet, versus a Tyranid Hive Fleet. They start at opposite ends of the Galactic Empire. When the dust, assimilation nanotubes, and devoured biomass settles (I.e., they finally meet each other), who will have consumed a larger portion of the Empire? The Empire, on the defensive, is at the peak of its strength (since there are no pesky rebels to interfere), but it also has to split its strength, fleets, and commanders between two simultaneous fronts.

Perhaps one at a time?



Sadly I can see Star Wars losing space battles to Star Trek easily enough. Many sources put the Star Wars range at a few dozen kilometers and have their ships shields go down from a single flight of bombers, even suffering critical damage in the process.
And with this we come to the old question...
Does the Federation even have the fire power to bring down those shields?
Torpedoes aren't really threats to capital ships.


My question is.......are we using ST books as well as the tv/movies or just the tv/movies? i assume books are ok as I've seen several SW book references and well 40K is almost all written material. Just wanted some clarity. Thanks.
Official canon sources only.
The Star Wars universe has layered canon, with the books and other materials supporting the films.
The Star Trek universe does not. Only the movies and films count.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 07:47 AM
Ok second question....do 40k and Star Wars sensors work at relativistic speeds? Meaning in a combat situation if a ST cruiser dumped a payload of quantum torps on them while pulling warp 4 would the SW/40k ships even see it coming? Not including the psyker who literally saw it coming lol.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-12, 07:49 AM
Ok second question....do 40k and Star Wars sensors work at relativistic speeds? Meaning in a combat situation if a ST cruiser dumped a payload of quantum torps on them while pulling warp 4 would the SW/40k ships even see it coming? Not including the psyker who literally saw it coming lol.
Doesn't matter if the torpedoes can't penetrate particle shields and armor...
...and if a ST cruiser is moving at relativistic speeds how does IT see the SW/40K ships?

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 07:54 AM
Ok second question....do 40k and Star Wars sensors work at relativistic speeds? Meaning in a combat situation if a ST cruiser dumped a payload of quantum torps on them while pulling warp 4 would the SW/40k ships even see it coming? Not including the psyker who literally saw it coming lol.

I cant speak for star wars...but 40k is even harder to speak for due to the setting mostly ignoring this part.

In the Rouge Trader RPG game (seriously, this Dark heresy and Deathwatch are perhaps some of the most reliable sources for fluff in my opinion.) it implies that 40k sensors are as advanced as youd expect from a sci fi setting, for the sake of argument..there on average...as advanced or comparable to star wars or star trek. What could potentially be a winner is there use of psykers.

Astropaths are seriously important people on a 40k starship. They are the ships only method of "instant" communication across systems and can also do such wonders as predict the future (albiet a murky interpretation).

Parra
2011-10-12, 08:04 AM
My question is.......are we using ST books as well as the tv/movies or just the tv/movies? i assume books are ok as I've seen several SW book references and well 40K is almost all written material. Just wanted some clarity. Thanks.

A case by case basis I think. Just as we have struck out of the less credible SW:EU stuff, the same measure should be applied to trek novels imo

Parra
2011-10-12, 08:05 AM
Doesn't matter if the torpedoes can't penetrate particle shields and armor...


Do we have reason to belive they wouldn't effect them?

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-12, 08:08 AM
A case by case basis I think.
Negative, canon material only.



Just as we have struck out of the less credible SW:EU stuff, the same measure should be applied to trek novels imo
The difference with the 'less credible SW:EU stuff" is that they're contradictory with the films and other EU material.

The official Lucasfilm stance is that all EU material fits within the Star Wars canon with varying degrees of authority.
The Star Trek creators don't consider the books as canon, and have stated only the films and movies count.
This is what we've been going by since this discussion began.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 08:17 AM
Ok accuracy question. In one of the star trek movies we see the enterprises sensors detect an Android arm, ala data, from literally light years away. In another example a fed ship detects its not detecting some stuff and thus finds a cloaked ship. can SW and 40K duplicate that kind of accuracy. SW Canon also states accurate gravity detection sensors are rare and incredibly expensive.

Another question has anyone brought up that the feds know how to create black holes? The romulans lacking antimatter in quantity use singularity generators to power their ships, the only problem is you can't turn them off except at special facilities, they further explain this is why the feds use antimatter. This is mentioned several times even going on to explain this why romulans fight really close, in space, and use short ranged weapons. No one wants to blow up a Romulan ship right next to them because the singularity might be tossed into your ship. So the feds know how to do it, are duly capable of building and may have tested it in the past, but chose not to use the tech.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-12, 08:18 AM
A particle shield was a type of shield used to deflect physical projectiles or space debris.
Shields (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deflector_shield)
Torpedoes won't go through the particle shields because they're solid.
And the Federation almost exclusively use particle shields.

But barring that, let's take a ground battle-because according to the victory conditions, the Feds will eventually have to go on the offensive and either destroy or conquer planets...
No real armor has ever been seen.
No artillery or heavy arms, like rocket launchers. How does the Federation intend to take planets with scientists in tunics?


Ok accuracy question. In one of the star trek movies we see the enterprises sensors detect an Android arm, ala data, from literally light years away. In another example a fed ship detects its not detecting some stuff and thus finds a cloaked ship.
So, they can scan entire sectors of empty space.
How long will it take them to get there?


Another question has anyone brought up that the feds know how to create black holes?
The Federation is going to conquer two galaxies and defend it's own by making black holes?
Really?
Even if it decides to refit it's own ships with singularity powered ships, the 40K universe has the effective range to stop them before they get close.
But nonetheless, if the Federation is going to throw away every ship in a black hole, it shall be a very interesting confrontation.

Parra
2011-10-12, 08:22 AM
The Star Trek creators don't consider the books as canon, and have stated only the films and movies count.


Thing is the shows & movies contradict themselves too. Not as overtly as in EU material but its there all the same. With the most glaring examples of it being:
weapon ranges stated v's weapon ranges shown
Warp Speed:Plot. Which is why the Enterprise is always the only ship in range, because the writers said so with complete disregard for those ramifications.

I figure that so long as the books dont drift into seriously condradictory territory then they should be at least considered and their validaty decided by consensus. In fact this has happened a few times in the thread(s) already to help support various arguements (mostly regarding Borg and Section 31). That said I have only read 3-4 Trek books so I actually dont know how bad they could get.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 08:22 AM
Ok accuracy question. In one of the star trek movies we see the enterprises sensors detect an Android arm, ala data, from literally light years away. In another example a fed ship detects its not detecting some stuff and thus finds a cloaked ship. can SW and 40K duplicate that kind of accuracy. SW Canon also states accurate gravity detection sensors are rare and incredibly expensive.

Another question has anyone brought up that the feds know how to create black holes? The romulans lacking antimatter in quantity use singularity generators to power their ships, the only problem is you can't turn them off except at special facilities, they further explain this is why the feds use antimatter. This is mentioned several times even going on to explain this why romulans fight really close, in space, and use short ranged weapons. No one wants to blow up a Romulan ship right next to them because the singularity might be tossed into your ship. So the feds know how to do it, are duly capable of building and may have tested it in the past, but chose not to use the tech.

again 40k "sensors" seem to be a purely dramatic thing. when its needed a 40k cruiser can detect the whole layout of a space hulk in order to show a group of space marines where to find the hidden files...while in another the ships are totally incapable of spotting a hollowed out CORE OF THE PLANET THERE ON. Ultimatly what we know for certain about 40k vessals is:
1) there at least good enough to detect and fire upon ships 400k+ away accuratly..as they do so often.
2) there good enough to accuratly determine the mineral make up and wealth of planets from the edge of a star system. as its shown explorator fleets do so often.
3) they can detect and identify species on planets to a degree from the same distances...as they did so with the primitive Tau race.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-12, 08:29 AM
Thing is the shows & movies contradict themselves too.
Then we use logic to find the most likely scenario. Why change now?
If we can let the Star Trek universe be considered, why not the Infinities Star Wars Comics? Or 40K fan fictions?
They're non-canon.
They didn't happen.



weapon ranges stated v's weapon ranges shown
Drama and storytelling.


Warp Speed:Plot. Which is why the Enterprise is always the only ship in range, because the writers said so with complete disregard for those ramifications.
So, Star Trek has bad writers. Congratulations, first step to recovery.
:smalltongue:


I figure that so long as the books dont drift into seriously condradictory territory then they should be at least considered and their validaty decided by consensus.
See above exaggerations.


In fact this has happened a few times in the thread(s) already to help support various arguements (mostly regarding Borg and Section 31). That said I have only read 3-4 Trek books so I actually dont know how bad they could get.

If it did happen those arguments should be disregarded.
And Gods above and below as my divine and infernal witnesses, if non-canon material can be considered, than I'm going to once again put forward stardestroyer.net's turbolaster strength argument concerning the asteroid...
And why not, we're already being threatened to go back in circles...
:smallsigh:

In order to stop wild accusations from going left and right, we need to stick to official and sanctioned materials.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 08:30 AM
Are we allowing the tech Voyager brought back? Because chroniton torpedos would by pass all shields as they travel in a temporal flux and require temporal shielding to stop. Not to mention the other 2 dozen incredible advancements they brought with them

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 08:32 AM
Then we use logic to find the most likely scenario. Why change now?
If we can let the Star Trek universe be considered, why not the Infinities Star Wars Comics? Or 40K fan fictions?
They're non-canon.
They didn't happen.



Drama and storytelling.


So, Star Trek has bad writers. Congratulations, first step to recovery.
:smalltongue:


See above exaggerations.


If it did happen those arguments should be disregarded.
And Gods above and below as my divine and infernal witnesses, if non-canon material can be considered, than I'm going to once again put forward stardestroyer.net's turbolaster strength argument concerning the asteroid...
And why not, we're already being threatened to go back in circles...
:smallsigh:

In order to stop wild accusations from going left and right, we need to stick to official and sanctioned materials.

OH DEAR GOD AGREED!
I swear I will drown myself in the sea if we go back to that...please dont go back there.

hamishspence
2011-10-12, 08:35 AM
Actually, there are sources which state that the Imperium of Man is the Lord of over a BILLION worlds, and millions of colonies.

The "billion worlds" figure I've only seen in sidebars in the Dark Heresy & Rogue Trader books- within the same books the "million worlds" figure is also used.

So it may depend on which you think is more likely- that the sidebar is in error, or that the much more common "million worlds" figure is in error.

Parra
2011-10-12, 08:38 AM
A particle shield was a type of shield used to deflect physical projectiles or space debris.
Shields (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deflector_shield)
Torpedoes won't go through the particle shields because they're solid.
And the Federation almost exclusively use particle shields.

The ST shields most definatly block more than physical matter so Im not sure where that is coming from?

Aside from that, in all 3 settings if you throw enough dakka at a shield it can be overwhelmed. And it is demonstrateable that a 40k Lance Strike is roughly equal in destructive power (if different in how it achieves it) to a low end ST Torp.
I fail to see where the issue is?

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 08:39 AM
The "billion worlds" figure I've only seen in sidebars in the Dark Heresy & Rogue Trader books- within the same books the "million worlds" figure is also used.

So it may depend on which you think is more likely- that the sidebar is in error, or that the much more common "million worlds" figure is in error.

Yea its commonly accepted to be in the millions. Its also worth mentioning that this isnt a stagnant figure....the Imperium of man loses hundreds of worlds daily...and reconquers / colonises new ones at almost ALMOST equal rate...i doubt either setting can compete with that kind of expansion power.

EDIT for directly above:
Wait...when did 40k lances become comparable to ST torpedos?
ST torpedos can penetrate planetary crusts?

MAYBE comparable to the lances on a frigate..but not the 40k war vessals (cruisers) and lets not forget that said lances are fired in batteries.

Parra
2011-10-12, 08:47 AM
EDIT for directly above:
Wait...when did 40k lances become comparable to ST torpedos?
ST torpedos can penetrate planetary crusts?

MAYBE comparable to the lances on a frigate..but not the 40k war vessals (cruisers) and lets not forget that said lances are fired in batteries.

The comparison came from comparing a single Lance's Shot v's a single Torp's destructive impact on a planet. With both giving similar areas of destruction.

Edit:

Yes Im aware Lance's come in batteries and that it is kinda like comparing a Gatling Gun to a Rifle. It was simply meant as a 'shell-for-shell' comparison.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-12, 08:51 AM
And the Federation almost exclusively use particle shields.
:smallconfused:

The ST shields most definatly block more than physical matter so Im not sure where that is coming from?
Oh, that's supposed to say exclusively use torpedoes...
:smalltongue:


Aside from that, in all 3 settings if you throw enough dakka at a shield it can be overwhelmed. And it is demonstrateable that a 40k Lance Strike is roughly equal in destructive power (if different in how it achieves it) to a low end ST Torp.
How? If it is demonstrable, demonstrate. Please.


I fail to see where the issue is?

Wait...when did 40k lances become comparable to ST torpedos?
ST torpedos can penetrate planetary crusts?

MAYBE comparable to the lances on a frigate..but not the 40k war vessals (cruisers) and lets not forget that said lances are fired in batteries.
This is the issue. ^

And again ask a question; What does the Federation do when it has to land on and fight on Coruscant? Terra? Geonosis? Board a 40K cruiser? What happens when they have to climb out of their 'super-powered-but-falls-apart-multiple-times-a-season" cruisers and have to face their enemes man-to-man?

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 08:53 AM
From what I have read in 40k the double digits millions of worlds would be very believable, billions kinda doubtful. But say 78 million seems likely

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 08:53 AM
The comparison came from comparing a single Lance's Shot v's a single Torp's destructive impact on a planet. With both giving similar areas of destruction.

hmmm yea ok ill give that. Ill put my fanboy bias away for that one.
though that would effectivly mean Star Trek vessals would need...a very LARGE amount of torpedos to put down a frigate.
as frigates take batteries of these for 1-2 hours before losing shields and being crippled. (based on rouge trader RPG mechanics)

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 09:03 AM
One salvo of Chroniton torps precisely dumped into the main fusion reactor and the secondary power plants by a ST late model Defiant class ship moving warp three. One hit kill. By passes all shielding and armor, explodes the reactors, and the patched together Battleship Emperors Voice is no more. Dang shame BFG is one of my favorite games I've never gotten to play.

byaku rai
2011-10-12, 09:07 AM
Except the stuff brought back by Voyager isn't allowed. The technobabble tomfoolery that they pull off with just their Fed tech is, but not the exotic stuff. Of course, in your example there's still the problem of targeting slower-than-light enemies while moving FTL. Which is not a problem which is likely to be solved.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 09:07 AM
One salvo of Chroniton torps precisely dumped into the main fusion reactor and the secondary power plants by a ST late model Defiant class ship moving warp three. One hit kill. By passes all shielding and armor, explodes the reactors, and the patched together Battleship Emperors Voice is no more. Dang shame BFG is one of my favorite games I've never gotten to play.

This sounds familiar...oh wait weve been here.

1) your assuming your ship hasnt been gimped already due to 4k ships having a longer range then yours.

2) exploding reactors isnt always enough to take out a 40k vessal...remember there an order of magnitude LARGER then your ships are and just as more armored.

3) void shields and gellar fields can stop quantum tomfoolery such as that, there built for exactly that purpose (warp, a thousand times warp)

these among other far better arguments have already been made in previous threads

Parra
2011-10-12, 09:17 AM
And again ask a question; What does the Federation do when it has to land on and fight on Coruscant? Terra? Geonosis? Board a 40K cruiser? What happens when they have to climb out of their 'super-powered-but-falls-apart-multiple-times-a-season" cruisers and have to face their enemes man-to-man?

They die, very quickly.
I am in full agreement that the Feds lose the war.
They have a few tricks up their sleeves with which to wage a defensive war, but with next to no abilty to take and hold enemy planets and an unwillingness to engage in a double galaxy genocide they will ultimatly lose this war.

The only points am disagreeing on is the misunderstanding on the Feds actual capabilities in this fight. They lose yes, but it would hardly be a cake walk. They could even win every space battle (and Im not saying they would) and they would still lose the war.

The absolute best they could hope for is being accepted into one of the other 2 factions and bolstering them with their advanced tech (replicators etc) with the more likely outcome being destruction at the hands of one of the other 2.


though that would effectivly mean Star Trek vessals would need...a very LARGE amount of torpedos to put down a frigate.
as frigates take batteries of these for 1-2 hours before losing shields and being crippled. (based on rouge trader RPG mechanics)

Correct. It would take something in the region of 60-100 torps to overwhelm the shields and destroy the ship before those sheilds recharged.
So its doable but difficult.

Hence in open space with enough time a Fed fleet could potentially take a IoM Fleet. But if they are pushing towards a Fed planet then time is limited and its unlikely they would destroy it all by the time troops started landing. At which point the planet is effectivly lost.


Re: Voyager Exotic Tech

In one of the potential scenarios where there is ~100 ramp up time before actual war breaks out I postulated that some of the Tech Voyager brought back would be implimented Federation-Wide, mostly Engine, Medical & Sensor stuff. In the 100 year absense of any threat it is unlikely that Weapons & Shields would improve all to much beyond what they are currently.
Essentially without the need to improve in a particular area, little improvement would be made.

Genosaurer
2011-10-12, 09:17 AM
Such as? Genuinely curious. 40k is pretty decent with sticking close to realistic ranges. Star Wars and Star Trek don't really do that, from what I can see.
QFT
Please have examples or a source rather than wild-eyed fervor.

Sure. Prime example:

As we discussed in the last thread, the very fastest warships used by the Imperium of Man have combat speeds of ~100,000-300,000km/h (per Battlefleet Gothic; Rogue Trader apparently gives 200,000km/h as normal for light combatants) and the fastest of their large capital ships are ~100,000km/h (again per Rogue Trader). This is pretty fast from our modern-day perspective, averaging around 0.0002c for light units like fighters and frigates, and 0.0001c for the best of their larger capital ships.

Starships used by the United Federation of planets have maximum Impulse (sublight) speeds somewhere between 0.5c (Star Trek: The Motion Picture) and 0.8c (VOY:"Timeless") and occasionally demonstrate the ability to fight even while moving at FTL speeds (for example, we see Enterprise fire torpedoes at a Borg cube while running at Warp 9.6 - roughly 1,900c - in TNG:"Q Who?").

Even the speediest of Eldar fighters in Battlefleet Gothic are thousands of times slower than the largest Federation capital ships. This isn't a minor disadvantage, it's a vast gulf in capabilities. I am unconvinced that the naval vessels used by the Imperium of Man could even target or track Federation ships, because there's simply nothing in their own setting to drive development of the capability to hit things hundreds of thousands of kilometers away that are zipping around at a significant fraction of lightspeed.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 09:17 AM
Eh I always thought that the empire would just look at the feds gasp at the heresy and just launch wave after wave after wave of exterminatus. The empire would probably have its economy overthrown a few decades after the introduction of the Replicator and antimatter generation technology, if they even needed it since they already have hyperfusion. The Replicator is too handy of a tool to pass up. They would attempt to control it, but all tech eventually leaks out and the bothans would make it their Job to get it as the info of how to construct replicators would be.....almost without price, and in sure some ferengi would be more than willing to sell it to a Hutt or anyone else with trade.


So is that where the discussion is at?

Parra
2011-10-12, 09:28 AM
Sure. Prime example:

As we discussed in the last thread, the very fastest warships used by the Imperium of Man have combat speeds of ~100,000-300,000km/h (per Battlefleet Gothic; Rogue Trader apparently gives 200,000km/h as normal for light combatants) and the fastest of their large capital ships are ~100,000km/h (again per Rogue Trader). This is pretty fast from our modern-day perspective, averaging around 0.0002c for light units like fighters and frigates, and 0.0001c for the best of their larger capital ships.

Starships used by the United Federation of planets have maximum Impulse (sublight) speeds somewhere between 0.5c (Star Trek: The Motion Picture) and 0.8c (VOY:"Timeless") and occasionally demonstrate the ability to fight even while moving at FTL speeds (for example, we see Enterprise fire torpedoes at a Borg cube while running at Warp 9.6 - roughly 1,900c - in TNG:"Q Who?").


Humm I thought the 40k ships were a little faster than that, must have misremember just how much slower they were in combat speeds.

Also, I as far as I recall, Impulse Drives can indeed potentially approach near light speeds but they deliberatly and purposefully limit their top speed to 0.25c to avoid time-dialation issues

hamishspence
2011-10-12, 09:32 AM
As we discussed in the last thread, the very fastest warships used by the Imperium of Man have combat speeds of ~100,000-300,000km/h (per Battlefleet Gothic; Rogue Trader apparently gives 200,000km/h as normal for light combatants) and the fastest of their large capital ships are ~100,000km/h (again per Rogue Trader). This is pretty fast from our modern-day perspective, averaging around 0.0002c for light units like fighters and frigates, and 0.0001c for the best of their larger capital ships.

In the novels (generally, outside of combat) they can go a lot faster- 1/100 the speed of light is the normal speed when leaving or entering a star system on the way to/from a jump point- though in Flight of the Eisenstein the star fort Phalanx reaches 3/4 the speed of light.

Also- do we ever see Federation ships engaging in battle at high relative speeds? We've seen torpedoes fired at ships when both ships are at warp- but not scenes of a warp-travelling ship firing at a stationary target while at warp.

Similarly- we know that at "full impulse" a ship can reach close to the speed of light- but that doesn't mean it can fight reliably while travelling at those speeds, against a much slower target. They may not be time to lock on at fire before the ship whizzes past out of range.

byaku rai
2011-10-12, 09:34 AM
... This again? I had thought better of all of you... Can we please just stick to the Monster of the Week scenarios without dragging in the other stuff? Which, I'm sure you'll recall, have already been discussed. Multiple times.

If this thread falls into another circular argument about the capabilities of the factions, I might just disown it.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 09:36 AM
... This again? I had thought better of all of you... Can we please just stick to the Monster of the Week scenarios without dragging in the other stuff? Which, I'm sure you'll recall, have already been discussed. Multiple times.

If this thread falls into another circular argument about the capabilities of the factions, I might just disown it.

brilliantly put.

weve been through this...40k won...end of discussion.

Now has anyone come up with an answer to Wookie vs Ogryn ?

hamishspence
2011-10-12, 09:37 AM
vs a "Monster of the Week"- would the Deathwatch be the Imperium's best? That is their main speciality- and they have some diplomatic skill as well, and can be more restrained than the average Imperium soldier- though they still subscribe to the view that the first principle in a First Contact scenario is to be the one shooting first.

Wookiee vs Ogryn- Ogryns seem to be built much wider, and maybe slightly taller- 10 ft compared to the 7-9 ft of a Wookiee.

I could see an Ogryn beating a Wookiee in a strength test.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 09:40 AM
vs a "Monster of the Week"- would the Deathwatch be the Imperium's best? That is their main speciality- and they have some diplomatic skill as well, and can be more restrained than the average Imperium soldier- though they still subscribe to the view that the first principle in a First Contact scenario is to be the one shooting first.

Wookiee vs Ogryn- Ogryns seem to be built much wider, and maybe slightly taller- 10 ft compared to the 7-9 ft of a Wookiee.

I could see an Ogryn beating a Wookiee in a strength test.

id say it depends on the situation...if we want "best of the best of the best" The emperors Custodes are techniqually the best they can call upon. Course they wouldnt ever do that. grey knights are a step up from Deathwatch..but again wouldnt be called in. So i guess that Yea, Deathwatch is probably there best bet in 90% of the situations.

hamishspence
2011-10-12, 09:46 AM
The Custodes and the Grey Knights aren't trained to deal with strange aliens though- or issued with anti-alien technology.

That said, the Grey Knights (unlike the Custodes) are known to travel off Terra- and though their speciality is daemons, the GKs are not averse to coming to the aid of people beset by aliens, should they happen to be in the vicinity.

So- Deathwatch are the most likely to encounter strange aliens, GKs are probably the toughest guys likely to come into contact with them (though it will happen less).

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 09:49 AM
The Custodes and the Grey Knights aren't trained to deal with strange aliens though- or issued with anti-alien technology.

That said, the Grey Knights (unlike the Custodes) are known to travel off Terra- and though their speciality is daemons, the GKs are not averse to coming to the aid of people beset by aliens, should they happen to be in the vicinity.

So- Deathwatch are the most likely to encounter strange aliens, GKs are probably the toughest guys likely to come into contact with them (though it will happen less).

The custodes were trained to protect the emperor...you know...when he was off smooshing alien heads, id say there more then equiped...especially since they have never EVER lost a battle.

question...just how far could a ten man Deathwatch squad go..if suddenly dropped onto say..coruscant with limited supplies.

hamishspence
2011-10-12, 09:52 AM
I believe in one novel (Iron Snakes?) a single squad of Marines succeeds in surviving on a hostile world, and overthrowing a regime.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 09:54 AM
wookie realizes how dumb ogryn is, builds trap, lures ogryn in, ogryn dies.

Ogryn punches wookie, wookie uses waruushie, however you spell the wookie martial art, and punches ogryns head off.

Ogryn and wookie get into firefight at any range greater than say 30meters wookie wins. There is only so much you can do against fully auto 4gauge shotgun.

We should really start a monster of the week versus thread, by itself, a fleet battle thread if anyone is interested, a ground forces thread, an individual hero skirmish thread, and a civ thread. The civ v civ thread is pretty much played out it sounds like.


Oh one more thing, star fleet has magick. Like real pointy hat wizard in a star covered dress magick. They ran across a planet soaked in it during the enterprises second five year mission. Lol it was during the cartoon series so I guess it doesn't count. My friends always joked that was were they got Replicator tech from.

The_Final_Stand
2011-10-12, 10:01 AM
The custodes were trained to protect the emperor...you know...when he was off smooshing alien heads, id say there more then equiped...especially since they have never EVER lost a battle.



See: The First Heretic. 4 Custodes on board a Word Bearer ship. One of them is ripped apart by a construct with several heavy bolters at close range. The other three escape to Isstvan V. Yeah, that one. After the fireworks, but still. They are followed down by 11 Possessed Marines, the Gal Vorbak. Those 3 kill 6 Possessed including what was once their Chaplain, but the end result is that they were killed and eaten.

There's also the point that one was slain earlier on from behind when he tried to stop a Chaotic Ritual. He took down several Word Bearers, but was shot in the head and impaled through the chest.

So yeah. Not as unstoppable as you may think.

EDIT:

wookie realizes how dumb ogryn is, builds trap, lures ogryn in, ogryn dies.

Ogryn punches wookie, wookie uses waruushie, however you spell the wookie martial art, and punches ogryns head off.

Ogryn and wookie get into firefight at any range greater than say 30meters wookie wins. There is only so much you can do against fully auto 4gauge shotgun.



... you don't really get Ogryns do you? I'll grant you the trap option, maybe, but Ogryns are big, very strong, and incredibly tough. And carry Ripper guns that happen to also be big, strong, tough, rapid firing, and have the bonus of having a combat blade stuck on the end. Wookiees do not win in close combat vs Ogryns. At range, it depends on the distance, since Rippers aren't that brilliant at range, but since the Ogryn would want to get into close combat very quickly anyway, that's something of a moot point.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 10:06 AM
See: The First Heretic. 4 Custodes on board a Word Bearer ship. One of them is ripped apart by a construct with several heavy bolters at close range. The other three escape to Isstvan V. Yeah, that one. After the fireworks, but still. They are followed down by 11 Possessed Marines, the Gal Vorbak. Those 3 kill 6 Possessed including what was once their Chaplain, but the end result is that they were killed and eaten.

There's also the point that one was slain earlier on from behind when he tried to stop a Chaotic Ritual. He took down several Word Bearers, but was shot in the head and impaled through the chest.

So yeah. Not as unstoppable as you may think.

I didnt say unstoppable. But ultimatly they were always supposed to be "the next tier up" from Grey knights, which were the "next tier up" from deathwatch which were the "next tier up" from space marines e.t.c e.t.c

I mean lets not forget that these guys are psychers to the point were they can be in the emperor's presence without going blind, hairless and semi insane. Hell they do so while fighting a constant stream of daemons pouring out from the throne gate thing from what ive heard.

Genosaurer
2011-10-12, 10:08 AM
... This again? I had thought better of all of you... Can we please just stick to the Monster of the Week scenarios without dragging in the other stuff? Which, I'm sure you'll recall, have already been discussed. Multiple times.

Eh, if any of these topics had really been settled as certain posters like to claim (and claim, and claim) then it would be relatively easy to reiterate the conclusions. The fact is though, very few actual conclusions have been reached.

As interesting as it is to sidetrack and discuss "Who would be victorious in a thumb wrestling tournament?" or whatever the current scenario is, I still find the original topic interesting and think there's plenty there we haven't explored. (Also, the winner would obviously be Marneus Calgar.)

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 10:12 AM
Does anyone have an accurate conversion scale for 40k ground combat?I've been looking all morning and right now its something like, what ever fits on a folding card table we laugh at your attempts to quantify our awesome in real world terms.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 10:12 AM
Eh, if any of these topics had really been settled as certain posters like to claim (and claim, and claim) then it would be relatively easy to reiterate the conclusions. The fact is though, very few actual conclusions have been reached.

As interesting as it is to sidetrack and discuss "Who would be victorious in a thumb wrestling tournament?" or whatever the current scenario is, I still find the original topic interesting and think there's plenty there we haven't explored. (Also, the winner would obviously be Marneus Calgar.)

Well what dont you believe has been discussed? because the war aspect certainly was....40k will eventually get boots on the ground at some point...when that happens they win. This will happen again and again regardless of losses (as the imperiums ability to recupe those losses is indeed...there whole thing) untill both factions are consumed or wiped out.

EDIT FOR ABOVE:
THe board game...is not the fluff. The warhammer 40k fluff and the board game are so FAR out of reach from each other its hard to make any comparisons between the two at all. If we did..wed have dedicated artilary incapable of firing more then several yards. If we did...several guardsmen could take out a space marine 2/6's of the time.

you want a good comparison? go to Dark heresy, in it is stats for blunderbusses and muskets right next to Autoguns...bolters and various other weaponry. These are by no means static...as space marines all have fate points e.t.c to reflect there "screw you were awesome" but in any case its a good starting point to get at least SOME of the things right.

The_Final_Stand
2011-10-12, 10:20 AM
As interesting as it is to sidetrack and discuss "Who would be victorious in a thumb wrestling tournament?" or whatever the current scenario is, I still find the original topic interesting and think there's plenty there we haven't explored. (Also, the winner would obviously be Marneus Calgar.)

An interesting proposal. I'd be interested in seeing whether Calgar can thumb wrestle anything given those power fists he lugs around.

...
Actually no, a thumb-wrestling tournament probably isn't such a brilliant idea. It basically comes down to brute strength in the end. Which Space Marines win at.

I'd be interested in who would win a game of Monopoly. Psychic powers, either to manipulate the dice, or tell the future, or anything like that are forbidden. Imperium gets the battleship, Empire gets the boot, Feds get the hat.

Parra
2011-10-12, 10:25 AM
Actually no, a thumb-wrestling tournament probably isn't such a brilliant idea. It basically comes down to brute strength in the end. Which Space Marines win at.

I dunno, I reckon Data could beat a standard marine in a Thumb-wrestling competition. He can move his thumb faster than the eye can track, is stronger than any alien shown in ST (some of which would have equal or superior to SM strength) and is made from super stong alloys that a SM probably wouldnt be able to bend (at least not with his thumb alone)

:smallfurious: !!!!THUMB WAAAARRRRR!!!! :smallfurious:

byaku rai
2011-10-12, 10:27 AM
But who gets the race car? D=

... "For in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is only THUMB WAR."

... sorry, couldn't resist.

profitofrage
2011-10-12, 10:27 AM
I dunno, I reckon Data could beat a standard marine in a Thumb-wrestling competition. He can move his thumb faster than the eye can track, is stronger than any alien shown in ST (some of which would have equal or superior to SM strength) and is made from super stong alloys that a SM probably wouldnt be able to bend (at least not with his thumb alone)

:smallfurious: !!!!THUMB WAAAARRRRR!!!! :smallfurious:

Look we all know Mork would totally win at the thumb war....hes cunningly brutal after all...or maybe hes brutally cunning?

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 10:43 AM
Yea the main problem with quantifying the IoM is that somewhere in someones storage facility or weapons locker is any macguffin you could name especially if you allow any sanctioned fluff. 40K is awesome like that, the only real advantage ST and SW have over 40k is they understand exactly how their stuff works, can reproduce it, can maintain it, and their production facilities dont take decades to produce a starship. I believe reading in the fluff that the larger Titans take a century to produce. THAT requires the IoM to be as big as it is, their logistics train is 98% or more of their entire war machine, and dont get me wrong its one heck of a war machine.

I now have the image of imperial guardsmen all carrying phaser rifles and screaming "whose got the angry flashlight now!!!!!"

grolim
2011-10-12, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Sadly I can see Star Wars losing space battles to Star Trek easily enough. Many sources put the Star Wars range at a few dozen kilometers and have their ships shields go down from a single flight of bombers, even suffering critical damage in the process.
And with this we come to the old question...
Does the Federation even have the fire power to bring down those shields?
Torpedoes aren't really threats to capital ships.

SW torpedoes may not be a threat to capital shields, but ST torpedoes should. Two quantum torps can rip open a hole in subspace so I would imagine they would hurt.



Also- do we ever see Federation ships engaging in battle at high relative speeds? We've seen torpedoes fired at ships when both ships are at warp- but not scenes of a warp-travelling ship firing at a stationary target while at warp.

Similarly- we know that at "full impulse" a ship can reach close to the speed of light- but that doesn't mean it can fight reliably while travelling at those speeds, against a much slower target. They may not be time to lock on at fire before the ship whizzes past out of range.

I would say they can NOT fire phasors at a non warp target while at warp, but probably torpedoes. We know they can fire torps warp to warp so they should be able to fire at warp to stationary since the torpedo has its own guidance system. At higher speeds torpedoes are probably the only option since they can avoid and fly themselves. However if the other ships have such a horrible turn rate and are basically moving straight they MAY be able to lead their target since phasor arrays can keep firing on a single spot even as the angle to ship changes but I would imagine it would be far less accurate if possible. But that would be for high %c movement not warp. I think they only things they have been shown to do at warp are fire torps and beam. But they have also said they are capable of dropping out of warp and going back into warp a second or so later so they could pop in, unload a salvo, and pop out before they even show up on their enemies scanners.

The only chance for the fed to win long term is 1-2 centuries of being left alone for their tech to get to the level where their size will hurt them less, and watching the others fight so can learn about them before engage.
Anti borg armor and torpedoes, transwarp would be big differences.

Parra
2011-10-12, 11:20 AM
The only problem with 2 century wait for the Feds to tech-up to an unbeatable level, and all the hypothetical improvements that brings, is that it is beyond the scope of this thread. So like time-travel trickery and super-weapons it is unfortunately not an option.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 01:36 PM
As my friend The Witch King mentioned, what about the genesis torpedo? Small fireable using standard Torp tubes and once activated would completely destroy the surface of a planet.

we think the real question is what starts happening when Imperial engineers that master minded such works as the death star start working with federation engineers? We have a suggestion: Deathstar+replicator+genesis torpedos+ phased cloaking device = golf resort system constructor.

It comes in to a system and begins abducting the populace, puts them into stasis, rips apart the system and rebuilding it according to standard templates, genesis torps the new planets, deposits a replicated civilization, then deposits the newly sleep trained population as your workers. You now have a system with the greatest golfing in the galaxy. I think its incredibly funny..

Weezer
2011-10-12, 01:39 PM
As my friend The Witch King mentioned, what about the genesis torpedo? Small fireable using standard Torp tubes and once activated would completely destroy the surface of a planet.

we think the real question is what starts happening when Imperial engineers that master minded such works as the death star start working with federation engineers? We have a suggestion: Deathstar+replicator+genesis torpedos+ phased cloaking device = golf resort system constructor.

It comes in to a system and begins abducting the populace, puts them into stasis, rips apart the system and rebuilding it according to standard templates, genesis torps the new planets, deposits a replicated civilization, then deposits the newly sleep trained population as your workers. You now have a system with the greatest golfing in the galaxy. I think its incredibly funny..

We're ignoring one off super weapons, so things like the genesis torpedo, the death star or the Blackstone Fortress don't enter into it.

Parra
2011-10-12, 02:21 PM
what about the genesis torpedo? Small fireable using standard Torp tubes and once activated would completely destroy the surface of a planet.

The Genesis device along with about a bazillion other planet killer weapons that the Feds have wouldnt be deployed. As was said waaaaaay back in the first thread, if the Federation started on a Genocidal Crusade and starting using the plethora of such devices in war, they would stop being the Federation we all know and 'love'.

By the a similar token the IoM still has its stifling (even if it is someone what lightened) beurocracy and the GE keeps its explotation of Aliens

Genosaurer
2011-10-12, 02:44 PM
The only problem with 2 century wait for the Feds to tech-up to an unbeatable level, and all the hypothetical improvements that brings, is that it is beyond the scope of this thread.

Although the original premise didn't specify how exactly the settings will intersect, any reasonable amount of separation between the powers will result in at least a few decades of fumbling before ships from one power run into a system held by another.

(I think we eventually decided on three galaxies all directly adjacent to each other? If that's the case, we'd be pushing into the centuries range.)

I would say the United Federation of Planets is the least likely to have their own worlds stumbled upon (because they're so comparatively tiny) but will probably reasonably quickly encounter systems held by the other two powers (because both are huge, and because the FTL travel used in Star Trek is the best suited for exploring, even taking into account its lower speed).

The Imperium of Man and the Galactic Empire are too big not to run into each other fairly quickly, unless there's a tremendous amount of distance between them. In the Imperium of Man, it will be a decade at least (potentially much longer) elapsed between that initial first contact and any coordinated response on higher than a local level. For its own part the Galactic Empire has shown itself to be fairly passive when faced with a serious but long-term threat, in its own setting; the Emperor apparently knew all about the approaching Yuuzhan Vong decades before the original trilogy takes place, but he really didn't do anything terribly proactive about it. So I figure at least a lag of a few decades before they start really going at it, perhaps much longer.

I view the United Federation of Planets in this contest as sort of a Tau Empire on steroids - they clearly won't be invading the other two powers, because they really are the happy space communists the Tau claim to be, but the general level of nasty in their applied technology (especially space warfare) would make them vastly more trouble than it's worth to invade. This status only increases the longer the contest goes on.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 02:45 PM
So no death star, no Blackstone fortress, no super weapons, and no one shot macguffins? So like 9/10s of warhammer 40ks stuff, half of star treks stuff, and a few things from SW?


Oh then the galactic empire wins, its drive system is faster and more reliable something neither the other two can boast and they can develop new tech and implement changes in tactics and material. The IoM while gigantic and has a number of one off macguffins is too unreliable of a socioeconomic system to maintain a war effort against such an enemy with an unreliable and bureactically obfuscated supply line and mysticated construction system. Size will only be so much of a help then it becomes a hindrance, the IoM is well beyond that point.


Genosaurer is entirely correct in his assessment of the feds. I concur

byaku rai
2011-10-12, 02:54 PM
So no death star, no Blackstone fortress, no super weapons, and no one shot macguffins? So like 9/10s of warhammer 40ks stuff, half of star treks stuff, and a few things from SW?


Oh then the galactic empire wins, its drive system is faster and more reliable something neither the other two can boast and they can develop new tech and implement changes in tactics and material. The IoM while gigantic and has a number of one off macguffins is too unreliable of a socioeconomic system to maintain a war effort against such an enemy with an unreliable and bureactically obfuscated supply line and mysticated construction system. Size will only be so much of a help then it becomes a hindrance, the IoM is well beyond that point.


Genosaurer is entirely correct in his assessment of the feds. I concur

Before you post anything else, I must insist that you go back and read at least the first two threads. Please. Just, please...

The_Final_Stand
2011-10-12, 02:58 PM
They've maintained a war on all fronts for the past 10,000 years.

And I fail to see how size is a hinderance in this case.:smallconfused:
If you can build 100 ships a year, but your opponent can only build 5, then you are building more ships than them. If you are building 10^5 ships a year, then you are building more ships than them. You also, generally, have more worlds to tax to make money from. Money which can go towards building ships.

Sheer size also means that losses aren't as keenly felt. If you have 5000 worlds bringing in money, then losing one isn't going to be much of a blow.

Also, again, go read the other three threads. The relatively high speed of the Empire has been mentioned once or twice.

The Witch-King
2011-10-12, 03:45 PM
I would say they can NOT fire phasors at a non warp target while at warp, but probably torpedoes. We know they can fire torps warp to warp so they should be able to fire at warp to stationary since the torpedo has its own guidance system. At higher speeds torpedoes are probably the only option since they can avoid and fly themselves. However if the other ships have such a horrible turn rate and are basically moving straight they MAY be able to lead their target since phasor arrays can keep firing on a single spot even as the angle to ship changes but I would imagine it would be far less accurate if possible.

At Star Trek.com I caught Elaan of Troyius again (it's fun to do research some times!). The engagement there is between a Klingon D7 at warp 7 making multiple attack passes on Enterprise caught at sublight speeds due to sabotage. Scotty even directly addresses the danger they are in saying "Maneuver? We can wallow like a garbage scow against a warp-driven starship!" The series-era D7, which has NO photon torpedoes--(the first two shots which are dead on could be mistaken for torps but the third shot is shown from the side and is clearly disruptor fire)--attacks Enterprise making several passes with disruptors until Scotty and Spock install new dilithium crystals and Kirk goes to warp and then pivots the ship at warp two and blasts the Klingon at close range with a spread of photon torps. To put it simply, yes, Star Trek ships can target sublight vessels even at warp.

Parra
2011-10-12, 04:10 PM
Oh then the galactic empire wins, its drive system is faster and more reliable something neither the other two can boast

In brief there huge speed advantage is all but negated when invading as they need to map Hypersapce Lanes to safetly travel. And thats a process that takes decades for each and every new lane.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 04:33 PM
Captured IoM stellar charts plus the use of droid charting ships would vastly speed up the endeavor, but would be very slow going. And internally the defensive capabilities of highly mobile defense fleets would make invasion of the SWempire very difficult. I imagine something like the defensive advantage railway gave defenders in WW1, sure you have to build the railwayline, but it can't be destroyed like a iron railway as its made of data. Not to mention the ability to travel the warp becomes pretty iffy outside the astronomicons light. which as i understand is basically the outer border of the IoM.

Parra
2011-10-12, 04:45 PM
I did give the brief version, but all this was also discussed.

Captured star charts would give a slight leg up, but would be a far cry from the detail they need. Chances are the IoM has little information about whats outside of each system as their method of travel skips it. It would however give them a point to aim for instead of exploring randomly.
But when your opposition can strike multiple planets any where in the galaxy planet it becomes alot harder to defend.

Also without the danger of the Chaos Gods both the Astronomicon light would increase and the danger of travel outside that area would vastly diminish.

Not to mention that Hyperspace travel is between 2 set points any invading fleet would have an enemy fleet waiting at the exit point in the enemies territory.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 04:54 PM
No. You dont get both ways, you have the warp therefore by its very nature comes with crazy gods, broken angels, and various nightmares. In that case SW ships dont have to worry about gravity well impacts.

Weezer
2011-10-12, 04:59 PM
Answer a question for me: have you read all of the other threads? Because this exact ground has been gone over at least 3 times in the other threads.


No. You dont get both ways, you have the warp therefore by its very nature comes with crazy gods, broken angels, and various nightmares. In that case SW ships dont have to worry about gravity well impacts.

Except going by the initial conditions of the thread, all opposing factions are removed from the galaxies of the contestants. This means no chaos, no demons and a calm warp. Yes this condition does favor 40k a bit, but it can't be changed without changing the whole bedrock of our discussions. Having these firm, immutable boundaries on the discussion is one of the main reasons this thread has been so reasonable. Don't try to break them down now.

And he isn't having it both ways, he's having it one way, the way that is in line with the very premises of the thread. He is applying the rules equally to each faction, there just happens to be different output for each.


EDIT:
If you want to go back into the other threads, find where this was discussed before and bring up things you don't think were covered well, please do so. That might help bring something new to the discussion.

The Glyphstone
2011-10-12, 05:03 PM
Indeed. Please, please, go read the discussions and arguments from the previous three threads. The reason we went to monster-of-the-week format is because every single argument you can think of was brought up at least once or twice, and we're all sick of it. Yes, even that was already suggested as a factor. Yes, that too. And that.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 06:05 PM
But taking away the chaos I mean.....that means every single factor that made the awesome that is The Empire Of Man never happened.




I dont want that universe.

byaku rai
2011-10-12, 06:13 PM
It isn't that chaos never existed; it simply goes away when the IoM gets teleported to this new place. There's still the warp, but without the Ruinous Powers or Demons to complicate things. Yes Warp, no Chaos.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 06:23 PM
Hmm in that case it's only a matter of time till the empire of man falls completely apart or humanity becomes unrecognizable . Without chaos as a the negative evolutionary selector on psykerz they would soon dominate society. The fight against the SWempire and feds would hold it together for a while, but in a millenia or two after its conquest of the two opposing powers it would fall apart like the Romans. No real heretics to contend with and psykers would make up an ever increasing number eventually thanks to adopted fed tech and science, star wars force training, and 40k psyker evolution we would become as gods. No empire or government necessary


But someone probably already covered all that.

The Reverend
2011-10-12, 09:29 PM
Ok I got a monster o the week scenario.

Data v. Space Marines

Okay ground rules both sides are briefed on the other in rough terms. Space Marines know they are going up against a highly dangerous abominable intelligence that looks like a human. Its reactions are faster than anything they can build or probably experienced, its scientific and technical expertise are that of the highest grade of the most ancient adeptus mechanics, it can think even faster, does not need to breath, and is probably as fast as them on foot will never tire, but is not as strong as them in armor, but it's shear speed, reaction time, and breath of hand to hand combat techniques make it at least the equal of a SM in melee which it will avoid. Its tools and weapons are probably more advanced than the Tau's best, but lacks psychic or magical attack vectors but not teleportation. The SMs are outfitted per strike team standard point values plus say 15%. Orders are to capture or incapacitate for study. Should they fail to return or fail and must fall back another larger for e will be sent.

Data is aware of the space Marines general demeanor and incredible indoctrination. Their general weapons sophistication, not every weapon they might bring, but general knowledg. He is aware of psykers although not their every ability they posses. He is also aware hr is facing super-humans far more advanced than any developed in Starfleet annals and they are some of the best soldiers possible. Data has one hour to prepare with his personal knowledge, a fully powered replicator, a tricorder, a non-flying shuttle, and a communicator that is suffering from interference so no communication off planet. The shuttle is in a shielded position hiding it from sensors, but not say line of sight observation
In the first wave no aerial support, there after aerial support
Star trek typical tecnofoolery, tricorder whiz-bang, compuhackin, and sewage system weaponization is allowed and expected.
Likewise 40k is pretty open to kill team setup, no more than one hero character.


How many waves before data is overwhelmed?
Feel free to specify death watch and other random awesomeness.Terrain is expected to play no special role other than normal terrain use: forest, meadow, lake, maybe an abandoned temple. No exploding crystal fumes, or acid geysers.

byaku rai
2011-10-12, 10:33 PM
Send in a Librarian and there you have a weapon which Data is defenseless against. He's probably immune to mind-affecting stuff, but Librarians have quite a few other tricks up their sleeves. If we take advantage of your Hero Character allowance, we can send in one of the Named Chief Librarians. So, one wave.

Fan
2011-10-12, 11:02 PM
Alternatively.. One shot from a melta.

grolim
2011-10-12, 11:09 PM
Only problem with the shuttle is non flying? Use sensors to locate other party. Lock on with transporter. Beam them into buffer, and remove all weapons. Materialize them inside a force field naked with no atmosphere and keep them there till unconscious?
Survive till second wave. Beam onto their operational aerial support and haul android butt.
If he is convinced they cannot be reasoned with or are like the borg would he act to kill? Doubtful, but if so would up his odds considerably.
If part one works he can re-materialize their weapons and examine them for weaknesses or to help formulate a defense.
Would it be possible for him to replicate a duplicate of himself and make them think they HAD disabled him and take it away? Then he could repair the shuttle or await rescue when they leave with their prize.
Could fight a falling back strategy into the shuttle, exchange fire, beam out safely and self destruct the shuttle. Kills the marines in that wave and probably convinces the rest he is dead. They leave with a failed mission.

Weezer
2011-10-12, 11:35 PM
So, assuming no weaponized transporters, which is safe to do because ST never, ever uses them that way, I think Data dies in the first wave. There are three options, 1st is he gets one-shotted with a heavy weapon, second is that a few clips of bolter fire are unloaded into him and third is he gets power sworded apart in melee. All of those end in Data dying, after killing at most one or two space marines. I think the Reverend overestimated Data's prowess.

Lamech
2011-10-13, 02:12 AM
Well if he has a replicator it should be fairly trivial for him to destroy the first wave. Simply throwing together a few outdated* drones should do the trick, or really he could just throw up some old mines**.

*Antiques really, I don't see how space marines will stop nuke equipped predator drones.
** Nukes are wonderful things.

So the first wave dies in a nuclear holocaust.

Send in a Librarian and there you have a weapon which Data is defenseless against. He's probably immune to mind-affecting stuff, but Librarians have quite a few other tricks up their sleeves. If we take advantage of your Hero Character allowance, we can send in one of the Named Chief Librarians. So, one wave. Ooo... and we got the one hero character too.
Then Data can start throwing up point defenses, auto-turrets and the like. Maybe a holo-emitter so he can have more soldiers. He'll probably want to start replicating the parts for a working shuttle. More shields, more replicators, more weapons ect. Probably eventually he'll want to start the self-replicating trick to bring out exponential growth ect.

So he should last until they either a) orbit-ally bombard him, or b) hit him with so much stuff that they crush him under the weight of their corpses.

Parra
2011-10-13, 02:27 AM
But someone probably already covered all that.
Would you believe we have? As well as the potential of Fed 'God' level telepath/phsykers (there is a place they can go that ups their power that high)

On the current scenario, a quick reminder of the win conditions for the IoM side are:

Orders are to capture or incapacitate for study

A Melta to the face, or similar liberal use of heavy (and very destructive) weapons would result in Data's destruction and thus a lose condition for the IoM

Selrahc
2011-10-13, 02:32 AM
Well if he has a replicator it should be fairly trivial for him to destroy the first wave. Simply throwing together a few outdated* drones should do the trick, or really he could just throw up some old mines**.


*Antiques really, I don't see how space marines will stop nuke equipped predator drones.
** Nukes are wonderful things.

So the first wave dies in a nuclear holocaust.


It's nice the way you're sticking so close to how replicators are used in the show.

Lamech
2011-10-13, 02:36 AM
It's nice the way you're sticking so close to how replicators are used in the show.
Your right, he could totally make much more effective things.:smallbiggrin: But I think vastly outdated technology sets a good minimum effectiveness. :smallamused:

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 02:49 AM
Your right, he could totally make much more effective things.:smallbiggrin: But I think vastly outdated technology sets a good minimum effectiveness. :smallamused:

ok...
Drones....drones are piddling pathetic attempts to slow a space marine down...want proof? Necrons...freaking NECRONS. Space marines fight these and come off fairly even most of the time..and they squat all over any drones that ive seen in star trek.

Nukes...yea..imperium has them...Imperium uses them...Imperium finds them not nearly as effective...why? Space marines are resistant to radiation...to a large degree. There suits? capable of sustaining them in the irradiated environments and are capable of letting them survive the blast should they not be at point of impact. Modern Era TANKS survive that sorta thing, space marines if not at the point of impact itself will be fine. This of course..is all assuming a space marine hasnt snipped data with a lascannon (yes there range allows them to be perfectly comparable to a sniper) in the first 20 minutes. If hes as tough as you make out, im certain the marines can just aim for his legs and disable him enough for adequete capture.

none of this works? there are anti droid Bolter rounds...effectivly each one gives off EMP blasts and electrical surges. a few shots and bamb..canptured.

Parra
2011-10-13, 02:57 AM
Nukes...yea..imperium has them...Imperium uses them...

I though Imperium had some issue with using Nukes? No problem with blowing a planet up or using bio-weapons to wipe out all life mind you, but I coulda sworn they had some issue with irradiating planets


none of this works? there are anti droid Bolter rounds...effectivly each one gives off EMP blasts and electrical surges.

Cant say of have ever heard of these. Care to give a source?

Either way, Data is immune to the effects of an EMP

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 03:55 AM
I though Imperium had some issue with using Nukes? No problem with blowing a planet up or using bio-weapons to wipe out all life mind you, but I coulda sworn they had some issue with irradiating planets



Cant say of have ever heard of these. Care to give a source?

Either way, Data is immune to the effects of an EMP

They dont have an issue with them, they just dont bother since they found all the far more useful weapons. Radiation problems are found in the heart of almost all Hive cities and in larger space fairing vessals. They just dont use them for exterminatus...because as far as that goes they can just melt it, so its cheaper to colonise later.
As for the rounds, there used mostly by the adeptus mechanicus in order to put down Servitors e.t.c There listed as an ammo type in the inquisitors handbook.
Even if he were immune, he isnt immune to the hundreds of other peices of equipment the IoM has but just isnt well known in the table top game. If a space marine squad was tasked SPECIFICALLY with capture....theyd send in a guy with a webber (easily obtained from an Adeptus Arbitus armory) and just coat him in a mesh the same durability as rockcrete untill they found a transport vessal. Bolters and missles arnt ALL space marines use...there smarter then the average fanboy makes them out to be.


EDIT: interesting side note, ima stat him up :P for funzies. How much do you think he could push / lift casually? as in not fatigue himself in doing so. considering the average humans mark is probably around 72kg.

Parra
2011-10-13, 04:44 AM
EDIT: interesting side note, ima stat him up :P for funzies. How much do you think he could push / lift casually? as in not fatigue himself in doing so. considering the average humans mark is probably around 72kg.

2 quick examples of Datas strength that I can think of. Unfortunatly neither really show him pushing his limits and he performs both feats with no effort
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFtGVk8-XBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0otnIuQiGG0&feature=related

Note: Klingons are cannoically much stronger than humans (Worf getting beaten up each week doesnt count, nor do mook klingons). I would put them near to but just below SM strength.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 04:54 AM
2 quick examples of Datas strength that I can think of. Unfortunatly neither really show him pushing his limits and he performs both feats with no effort
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFtGVk8-XBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0otnIuQiGG0&feature=related

Note: Klingons are cannoically much stronger than humans (Worf getting beaten up each week doesnt count, nor do mook klingons). I would put them near to but just below SM strength.

Now see we COULD do it the boring way :P and say "yea there round even" But that ends up with me going "nah way Space marines are ripped" and you going "pssh still reckon hed win" :P Lets do it the fun way, and get into a slugging match....with numbers...and imperical evidence :P

A space marine (average str and average toughness) is listed in DH as to be able to "lift" 2700kg's this is compared to a humans average 72kg (soldier or conscript). Would you say data could lift more or less then that casually?

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 05:18 AM
Actually ST has weaponized the transporter on a number of occasions. For example one Vulcan scientist built a transporter sniper rifle that could target and fire rounds over long distances thru large masses of terrain. Also transporting key components of ships, explosives onto ships, and in one case in classic ST Scotty beams a bio weapon onto a ship and of course tribble transfer.

Remember transports have shown themselves of removing just pieces of things, very small things.

phased power and range. Range is in kms, as in could fire from multiple kilometers and remember at its upper firing levels a phased can destroy between 10 cubic meters and 650 cubic meters of rock. Its a one shot kill weapon on most enemies barring shielding.

Also if you say "well you deploy x so x wins" you must define x's tactics abilities , weapons, strengths etc in at least the most basic terms.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 05:25 AM
Actually ST has weaponized the transporter on a number of occasions. For example one Vulcan scientist built a transporter sniper rifle that could target and fire rounds over long distances thru large masses of terrain. Also transporting key components of ships, explosives onto ships, and in one case in classic ST Scotty beams a bio weapon onto a ship and of course tribble transfer.

Remember transports have shown themselves of removing just pieces of things, very small things.

phased power and range. Range is in kms, as in could fire from multiple kilometers and remember at its upper firing levels a phased can destroy between 10 cubic meters and 650 cubic meters of rock. Its a one shot kill weapon on most enemies barring shielding.

Also if you say "well you deploy x so x wins" you must define x's tactics abilities , weapons, strengths etc in at least the most basic terms.

seriously...weve been through all of this. like...alot. We went through the "its been weaponised on the odd occasion sorta" argument and went through what it would mean if it was. Ultimatly..it doesnt matter, because the more and more the federation started using these things "like The imperium of man or empire would" the less there the federation..and hell the more likely they will just be swallowed and joined with said other two factions.
Its really that simple.

Now...back to data's lifting capabilities.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 05:42 AM
We're talking about the scenario I set up. Weaponized transporters are outlined in the opening action as a valid tool. As would say data hijacking their coms and giving fake orders or taking control of their suits with his computer skills.

not talking about an odd occasion, actually it seems to be fairly standard enough gambit frankly, we're talking right now. Remember Data while commanding a starship is the guy who gave the order to irradiate multiple decks so he could fire some torpedoes. Im sure would have little issue using the transporter to pop say the energy packs out of their supa suits.


I personally think their relative physical lifting capabilities are the lace on the window dressings retaining tie, but go for it.

Parra
2011-10-13, 05:43 AM
A space marine (average str and average toughness) is listed in DH as to be able to "lift" 2700kg's this is compared to a humans average 72kg (soldier or conscript). Would you say data could lift more or less then that casually?

Data is shown (on screen) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4377HhZ_NSM) to be able to measure a metal bar with a Tensile strength of "40kilo bar" with apparent ease.

if you take:
1 bar = 1.02 kg/cm^2
40,000*1.02 = 48,000 kg/cm^2

or roughly 24,000 kg

Ergo (if I did my sums right) Data is roughly 10 times the strength of a Space Marine?

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 05:51 AM
We're talking about the scenario I set up. Weaponized transporters are outlined in the opening action as a valid tool. As would say data hijacking their coms and giving fake orders or taking control of their suits with his computer skills.

not talking about an odd occasion, actually it seems to be fairly standard enough gambit frankly, we're talking right now. Remember Data while commanding a starship is the guy who gave the order to irradiate multiple decks so he could fire some torpedoes. Im sure would have little issue using the transporter to pop say the energy packs out of their supa suits.


I personally think their relative physical lifting capabilities are the lace on the window dressings retaining tie, but go for it.

Alright alright then.
range would essentially be picked by the Space Marine force. Are the sensors available to Data capable of detecting singular individuals that can hide both there heat signitures AND visual aspects? if not a scout squad armed with a lascannon just won the fight.

If he can..oh well..scout spotted and teleported...meh he shoulda seen it coming.
now, is he capable of fighting off 10 marines with power weaponry? "capture" in 40k is literally "just barely sorta maybe alive" and they really dont need him completly functioning for study. A drop pod (to fast for anti air fire to take out) should be enough to subdue him...hell they have shown how hard it is for teleporters to lock on in the shows I doubt hell be able to grab a squad traveling via space bullet.

Also you still didnt argue the "simple arbite squad with a webber" idea i mentioned


EDIT for directly above:
Yea im sorry i dont understand that math at all. is "kilo bar" some sort of imperical measurement im unaware of (its not like thats unlikely :P) in any case that um...sounds rather rediculous. With that sort of strength were talking about him being perfectly capable of tossing space ships.

Fan
2011-10-13, 06:00 AM
Data is shown (on screen) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4377HhZ_NSM) to be able to measure a metal bar with a Tensile strength of "40kilo bar" with apparent ease.

if you take:
1 bar = 1.02 kg/cm^2
40,000*1.02 = 48,000 kg/cm^2

or roughly 24,000 kg

Ergo (if I did my sums right) Data is roughly 10 times the strength of a Space Marine?

It says his skull is made out of quartz and uranium in that..

That isn't standing up to a Diamantine bolt.

Also that math is for crumpling the bar, and his arms waver when he bends it... so..

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 06:04 AM
It says his skull is made out of quartz and uranium in that..

That isn't standing up to a Diamantine bolt.

Also that math is for crumpling the bar, and his arms waver when he bends it... so..

Yea i kinda call fubar...if all hes made of is uranium e.t.c i dont see anything in him that could possibly bend something that requires THAT level of strength without...you know...quantum tomfoolery going on in his motors.
In any case..if that IS all hes made of...then yea..sniper through the joints and he aint doing nothing till the Techpriests get ahold of him.

Parra
2011-10-13, 06:15 AM
EDIT for directly above:
Yea im sorry i dont understand that math at all. is "kilo bar" some sort of imperical measurement im unaware of (its not like thats unlikely :P) in any case that um...sounds rather rediculous. With that sort of strength were talking about him being perfectly capable of tossing space ships.

Kilo = 1000 somethings
Bar = a measure of pressure

Kilo Bar = 1000 bars of pressure

and 24 metic tonnes (24,000kg) isnt space ship territory, but it is tank territory


Also that math is for crumpling the bar, and his arms waver when he bends it... so..

Ok so maybe not with 'ease' but still something he can readily do. Yes that math is for crumpling a bar. But it also shows he is capable of exerting the 24tonnes of force with his arms only, so not really "putting his back into it"

To put it into 3.5 terms a SM is around Strength 40, Data is Strength 54+

Edit:
"skull is composed of cortenide and duranium" not Quartz and Uranium

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 06:19 AM
Kilo = 1000 somethings
Bar = a measure of pressure

Kilo Bar = 1000 bars of pressure

and 24 metic tonnes (24,000kg) isnt space ship territory, but it is tank territory



Ok so maybe not with 'ease' but still something he can readily do. Yes that math is for crumpling a bar. But it also shows he is capable of exerting the 24tonnes of force with his arms only, so not really "putting his back into it"

To put it into 3.5 terms a SM is around Strength 40, Data is Strength 54+

yea...DnD i aint to good with :P
But in any case that is by and large...rediculously strong. This does definatly change things.
:P and see people were gonna settle for "there on even terms"
This essentially puts Data on Ork Warboss terms (well the small ones since there also kinda silly).
In any case, if the space marines were told about this "he can flip tanks np" then im sure they would take the smart approach and stay back.

alternativly..they call in the TechMarine..he says a prayer and then Data turns off. :P Ommnisiah totally wins.

Genosaurer
2011-10-13, 06:29 AM
It's nice the way you're sticking so close to how replicators are used in the show.

Just for argument's sake, DS9 does give us some examples of weaponized replicator technology, such as a replicator programmed to produce and power an automatic disruptor emitter ("Civil Defense") and a cloaked minefield equipped with replicators to replace any that are disarmed or detonated ("Call to Arms", etc.).

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 06:34 AM
Just for argument's sake, DS9 does give us some examples of weaponized replicator technology, such as a replicator turned into an automatic disruptor emitter ("Civil Defense") and a cloaked minefield equipped with replicators to replace any that are disarmed or detonated ("Call to Arms", etc.).

ok my memory is failing me...but im PRETTY sure that everytime DS9 was brought up it was spat on for some reason?

In any case, if all the space marines were after was him...they would nuke the site (hed survive in his bunker that he would have been smart enough to make) and they would disable him with a sniper round, or lascannon salvo. If they wanted to be extra nice? squad of SM's armed with a webber.

Seriously...im gonna sell that webber wholesale.

Genosaurer
2011-10-13, 06:36 AM
ok my memory is failing me...but im PRETTY sure that everytime DS9 was brought up it was spat on for some reason?

You are probably thinking of Voyager, which is sometimes spat on because it was... kinda bad.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 06:38 AM
Tech priest turns him off, please expound on this. I
That the 40k guys might have good enough equipment to overcome Data's massive hardware and programming advantage never occurred to me.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 06:43 AM
Tech priest turns him off, please expound on this. I
That the 40k guys might have good enough equipment to overcome Data's massive hardware and programming advantage never occurred to me.

Oh uh...well to be fair that was actually kinda a joke.
but thinking on it seriously theres several problems.

when it comes to technology...40k imperium of man is both...the most advanced...and most primitive all in one.

There ancient technology..the stuff they still cling to and cant make anymore of...is CRAZY good. Im talking reality altering may as well be magic good.

The stuff they make wholesale? the stuff readily availabe? not as awesome.
A magos..might reasonably be expected to be able to (if making physical contact with data) be able to reprogram him. But that is equally as likely to happen as the Magos becoming a slave..or some other equally as dramatic tweest.

I would say for arguments sake...that data would be immune to Imperial techno battling. If only because we have SO very little to go off.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 07:01 AM
I had a dm that once said "if all the tech priests would look thru their cupboards, broom closets, attics, and under their beds cataloged every technology they had and sent the info up the chain of command they would pull themselves out of the dark age in under a millennium".

I once read in one of the actual games workshop pubs that the empire has rediscovered and forgotten the theory of evolution three separate times and catalogued this fact.

Macguffins is one thing the empire has in spades. They may not know how they work but by god they will point them at stuff and pull the trigger.

Magos touches data and falls in love, realizing data is a living avatar of the omnisiah. Lol

Fan
2011-10-13, 07:02 AM
Kilo = 1000 somethings
Bar = a measure of pressure

Kilo Bar = 1000 bars of pressure

and 24 metic tonnes (24,000kg) isnt space ship territory, but it is tank territory



Ok so maybe not with 'ease' but still something he can readily do. Yes that math is for crumpling a bar. But it also shows he is capable of exerting the 24tonnes of force with his arms only, so not really "putting his back into it"

To put it into 3.5 terms a SM is around Strength 40, Data is Strength 54+

Edit:
"skull is composed of cortenide and duranium" not Quartz and Uranium

It says Uranium in the transcripts.

Quartenide is also a valid mishearing.

Still, it doesn't mean that a Diamantine round or a burst of Kraken Penetrators wouldn't put him down.

If there is one thing the Imperium of Man does better than the Federation, it's armor.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 07:06 AM
I had a dm that once said "if all the tech priests would look thru their cupboards, broom closets, attics, and under their beds cataloged every technology they had and sent the info up the chain of command they would pull themselves out of the dark age in under a millennium".

I once read in one of the actual games workshop pubs that the empire has rediscovered and forgotten the theory of evolution three separate times and catalogued this fact.

Macguffins is one thing the empire has in spades. They may not know how they work but by god they will point them at stuff and pull the trigger.

Magos touches data and falls in love, realizing data is a living avatar of the omnisiah. Lol

Oh no in reality if a Magos took one look at Data they would screem "iron men" and immediatly exterminatus that planet and many others in the region of space. The Imperium of man already built what was essentially "data" in the form of Iron men and they revolted...and thats why Servitors are as far as the Imperium of man is allowed to go in terms of AI. The funny thing is, is that mankind ultimatly wiped them all out. Not "oh theres some living in the darkest corners" wiped out...I mean "they DO NOT EXIST" anymore fashoin. The only things left of them is there likeness and the memories they burnt into the minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

deuterio12
2011-10-13, 07:11 AM
yea...DnD i aint to good with :P
But in any case that is by and large...rediculously strong. This does definatly change things.
:P and see people were gonna settle for "there on even terms"
This essentially puts Data on Ork Warboss terms (well the small ones since there also kinda silly).
In any case, if the space marines were told about this "he can flip tanks np" then im sure they would take the smart approach and stay back.

alternativly..they call in the TechMarine..he says a prayer and then Data turns off. :P Ommnisiah totally wins.


40K lore says pretty much the oposite. Some classic examples:

Masters of assassins kills the Lords of Terra and 1000 marines follow him to a wasteland planet. Orbital bombardment? Tanks to get you cover? Hell no! Drop in an empty field in foot, 999 marines sniped from afar or gutted in close combat as they charge ahead, the last one suddenly remembers they have bolt pistols and finally shoots the master of assassins.

Squad of marines faces soulgrinder, that's basically a greater daemon with robot limbs. Bolters prove innefective at range. CHARGE! (and get slaughtered).


ok...
Drones....drones are piddling pathetic attempts to slow a space marine down...want proof? Necrons...freaking NECRONS. Space marines fight these and come off fairly even most of the time..and they squat all over any drones that ive seen in star trek.

Highly unstable actualy.

If you go by the necron codex, even SM run for cover and call for reinforcments when facing necrons.

If you by the latest 5e rulebook, necrons have decayed so much IG conspricts use them as target practise.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 07:16 AM
40K lore says pretty much the oposite. Some classic examples:

Masters of assassins kills the Lords of Terra and 1000 marines follow him to a wasteland planet. Orbital bombardment? Tanks to get you cover? Hell no! Drop in an empty field in foot, 999 marines sniped from afar or gutted in close combat as they charge ahead, the last one suddenly remembers they have bolt pistols and finally shoots the master of assassins.

Squad of marines faces soulgrinder, that's basically a greater daemon with robot limbs. Bolters prove innefective at range. CHARGE! (and get slaughtered).

if you want to bring up isolated occurances of fail and accept them as standard, then be aware ill do the same for you mr warf getting bitch slapped every episode is canonically how strong all klingons must be.

Space marines are SUPPOSED to be better at tactics and military strategy then mortal humans. The codex astartes was the art of war on crack and each marine is supposedly well read in the matter. The only reason the idea that "space mariens dont use cover and always charge" is because in the board game you wernt allowed to take both a cover save AND an armor save. The space marines Armor save of course 90% of the time always better then the cover one. You watch a boardgame with plenty of 2+ cover and youll notice the space marine players hugging it like a cereal bowl full of gold.

EDIT:
And dont get me started on ANYTHING in the recent codex's. As far as im concerned, anything written by matt ward is not just non cannon but worthy of censor.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 07:33 AM
Yes the imperium is much better at armor because they aren't facing disruptors or phasers set on high. Both which could vaporize a large tank. One of the reasons we dont see this very often is because they are fighting onboard ships and damaging some vital system would be....... very bad.

Also fed weapons update, in the episode of classic trek Feds have a mortar. Read up on the episode, it seems like it was a broad effect stun weapon, probably with emp style components. Interesting note it seems like Spocks tricorder signals were allowing the enemy to home in on them. For more detailed analysis see stardestroyer.net 's st-artillary page.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 07:39 AM
Yes the imperium is much better at armor because they aren't facing disruptors or phasers set on high. Both which could vaporize a large tank. One of the reasons we dont see this very often is because they are fighting onboard ships and damaging some vital system would be....... very bad.

Also fed weapons update, in the episode of classic trek Feds have a mortar. Read up on the episode, it seems like it was a broad effect stun weapon, probably with emp style components. Interesting note it seems like Spocks tricorder signals were allowing the enemy to home in on them. For more detailed analysis see stardestroyer.net 's st-artillary page.


Imperium of man has those, there called melta guns. Available in pistol form.
honestly, Star Trek is essentially where the Imperium of man was at before warp travel / the golden age of technology. Then they found the cosmic horrors / orks e.t.c and then the setting began to slip further and furthere into grimdark holy crapness.

In anycase is the situation resolved? Data taken out by a squad of marines using a webber after a bombardment run? or has there been an argument against that?

Fan
2011-10-13, 07:41 AM
Stardestroyer.net can eat it.

Seriously.

Nothing from there will ever be vaguely taken into POSSIBLE account by me, everyone else is allowed to, and that's fine, but I will never consider anything written with such a high level of bias in a forum specifically dedicated (almost to a fault) to that kind of thing VAGUELY MAYBE possible.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 07:44 AM
Stardestroyer.net can eat it.

Seriously.

Nothing from there will ever be vaguely taken into POSSIBLE account by me, everyone else is allowed to, and that's fine, but I will never consider anything written with such a high level of bias in a forum specifically dedicated (almost to a fault) to that kind of thing VAGUELY MAYBE possible.

Well this is why we are doing "monster of the week's" now rather then the main one that was resolved. better people then me already waded through all this and found the true answer :P 40k for the win.

actually i was there for alot of it :P but my impact could be argued

Parra
2011-10-13, 07:52 AM
still, it doesn't mean that a Diamantine round or a burst of Kraken Penetrators wouldn't put him down.

Im sure they would, that wasnt the point I was making.

Besides, its capture/incapcitate not kill. If it was kill then the first squad would most likely succeed and the 2nd definatly would.

Capture does make it tricker though

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 07:57 AM
Im sure they would, that wasnt the point I was making.

Besides, its capture/incapcitate not kill. If it was kill then the first squad would most likely succeed and the 2nd definatly would.

Capture does make it tricker though

Webber....again i say Webber.

Arbite squads use it to put down riots in the streets.. the method? by coating them all in "Rockcrete" its not some super macguffin either, just the top tier in "subdueing tech" most readily available to enforcers and Arbite squads. Space marines would have little to no problem in obtaining it for a capture scenario. What can Data do against being incased in rockcrete by three large marines with extra ammo packs for when he tries to break free. Eventually he will be incapacitated enough for them to throw him in a land raider and encased in more rockcrete or likewise disabled for transport.

V'icternus
2011-10-13, 08:12 AM
You know, 'capturing' a robot just means 'all the important bits relatively intact'.

So, no Bolter rounds or anything TOO explosive, but snipe/lascannon his arms/legs off? I'm sure that's enough for the Adeptus Mechanicus.


Or you could go with your silly boring webber that doesn't involve partially destroying an advanced robot AI of great value, whatever...

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 08:16 AM
You know, 'capturing' a robot just means 'all the important bits relatively intact'.

So, no Bolter rounds or anything TOO explosive, but snipe/lascannon his arms/legs off? I'm sure that's enough for the Adeptus Mechanicus.


Or you could go with your silly boring webber that doesn't involve partially destroying an advanced robot AI of great value, whatever...

Ok i admit its not AS fun as blowing it up..but it could still be funny at least.
Imagine them jumping in, covering him in rockcrete then picking up the whole pile. and hucking it in the back of a rhino :P as the space marines ride off with Data all squirming around as they cover him in more webs :P sorta kinda as funny as him crawling around legless.

Fan
2011-10-13, 08:44 AM
Webber....again i say Webber.

Arbite squads use it to put down riots in the streets.. the method? by coating them all in "Rockcrete" its not some super macguffin either, just the top tier in "subdueing tech" most readily available to enforcers and Arbite squads. Space marines would have little to no problem in obtaining it for a capture scenario. What can Data do against being incased in rockcrete by three large marines with extra ammo packs for when he tries to break free. Eventually he will be incapacitated enough for them to throw him in a land raider and encased in more rockcrete or likewise disabled for transport.


Alternatively, his strength doesn't matter once encased in rockcrete because he wont have any leverage with which to apply this strength.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 09:02 AM
Ok a couple things most people I dont think are understanding. This isn't put the two forces in a giant gym let them go at it.

Ok some for examples if i were Data.

If data wanted to be nasty he transports the first wave's drop-craft's engines inside the dropcraft....while they are running. First wave down dead before they come within a hundred meters of the ground in the general area of data. General area defined as say. 4km by 4km square. Whoever follows them has to still pin point his location and survive the assault, ditto for the next groups.

Ok next wave all have shields of some kind, incredibly expensive in 40k terms. Data begins a confusion campaign using simple com jamming and mimicry, also might use the transporters to establish false energy signals at remote locations to draw the Marines attention split them into groups then uses transporter mobility And better sensors to enfilade small teams and remove them as threats using superior firepower of a type 4phaser at its highest settings.

Actually I think in this setting arbites, IG, the big I, or a group of psykers might fare better as the produce magnitudes fewer emissions than a SM suit. while still easy to track they wouldn't be screaming and flashing lights. Armor really wouldn't matter with phasers unless you feel like hauling around big chinks measured in meter thickness, cover as well would be less useful as well that big rock can get blown up and turned into exploded or disintegrated pretty easily. A quick swipe at near full power in a tree line with a phaser would create a shrapnel cloud of splinters like wise hitting a body of water would cause a boiling mass of exploding steam

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 09:21 AM
Ok a couple things most people I dont think are understanding. This isn't put the two forces in a giant gym let them go at it.

Ok some for examples if i were Data.

If data wanted to be nasty he transports the first wave's drop-craft's engines inside the dropcraft....while they are running. First wave down dead before they come within a hundred meters of the ground in the general area of data. General area defined as say. 4km by 4km square. Whoever follows them has to still pin point his location and survive the assault, ditto for the next groups.

Ok next wave all have shields of some kind, incredibly expensive in 40k terms. Data begins a confusion campaign using simple com jamming and mimicry, also might use the transporters to establish false energy signals at remote locations to draw the Marines attention split them into groups then uses transporter mobility And better sensors to enfilade small teams and remove them as threats using superior firepower of a type 4phaser at its highest settings.

Actually I think in this setting arbites, IG, the big I, or a group of psykers might fare better as the produce magnitudes fewer emissions than a SM suit. while still easy to track they wouldn't be screaming and flashing lights. Armor really wouldn't matter with phasers unless you feel like hauling around big chinks measured in meter thickness, cover as well would be less useful as well that big rock can get blown up and turned into exploded or disintegrated pretty easily. A quick swipe at near full power in a tree line with a phaser would create a shrapnel cloud of splinters like wise hitting a body of water would cause a boiling mass of exploding steam

no no no we understood, were just disagreeing with your assesment.
You said specifically they were both briefed at least partially about the others abilities.
1) drop pods are not slow, transporters and the like (the thing your assuming will gimp the first wave) have been shown to not be able to lock onto things instantly or 100% accuratly. At least thats my undestanding. Drop pods are deployed and land so quickly that anti air flak isnt fast enough to hit them. Can a transporter lock onto and teleport a bullet flying through the air? no? then he cant manage to kill the first wave.

2) In a simple one man capture mission..they wouldnt SEND armored marines..they would send scouts, this REEKS of scout mission.
And lets not forget that the "emmisions" e.t.c from a Space marines suit CAN be masked and hidden. How do you think they manage to sneak up on the tau? who have the same level of sensor tech.

3) No..Not shields :P NO your wrong. it wouldnt get to that stage, ever. "shields" would essentially be terminators, and no Data is not worth that sort of trouble.

This is how it would go.
Scout with camilion cloak goes completly undetected by data's systems. and sees that hes built up a defensible position with his tech and made himself a bunker. Que orbital bombardment to destroy said defensive anythings.

Squad is then drop podded in or arrives via landspeeder during Data flails around in his bunker as stuff explodes and shakes.

Squad then gets out and webs the guy till hes subdued...then scenario has been won.

EDIT: The fact you said "the IG wouldnt be screaming and flashing lights" Shows you really dont know much about 40k space marines. You have (like some of the very fans of 40k) only seen whats been marketed. Space marines are tactical, highly trained VERY intelegant Soldiers. If you want to know what space marines are REALLY like, read some of the novels or download/buy Deathwatch.
Space marines use cover...space marines can ambush... space marines can make tactical retreats...space marines can know when a charge isnt optimal. The notion they dont is silly and misinformed.

Fan
2011-10-13, 09:24 AM
Ok a couple things most people I dont think are understanding. This isn't put the two forces in a giant gym let them go at it.

Ok some for examples if i were Data.

If data wanted to be nasty he transports the first wave's drop-craft's engines inside the dropcraft....while they are running. First wave down dead before they come within a hundred meters of the ground in the general area of data. General area defined as say. 4km by 4km square. Whoever follows them has to still pin point his location and survive the assault, ditto for the next groups.

Ok next wave all have shields of some kind, incredibly expensive in 40k terms. Data begins a confusion campaign using simple com jamming and mimicry, also might use the transporters to establish false energy signals at remote locations to draw the Marines attention split them into groups then uses transporter mobility And better sensors to enfilade small teams and remove them as threats using superior firepower of a type 4phaser at its highest settings.

Actually I think in this setting arbites, IG, the big I, or a group of psykers might fare better as the produce magnitudes fewer emissions than a SM suit. while still easy to track they wouldn't be screaming and flashing lights. Armor really wouldn't matter with phasers unless you feel like hauling around big chinks measured in meter thickness, cover as well would be less useful as well that big rock can get blown up and turned into exploded or disintegrated pretty easily. A quick swipe at near full power in a tree line with a phaser would create a shrapnel cloud of splinters like wise hitting a body of water would cause a boiling mass of exploding steam

I.. don't buy this.

Considering more often than not small non metal boxes can be used as cover against phasers...

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 09:47 AM
Yes in quite aware of what the fluff states and reads about the tactical ability of the space Marines. They are really good, in fact i would say they are the best warriors in 40k baring say grey knights etc. Unfortunately The Taus sensors while good are still no where as good as The Feds, heck even the star trek universe no ones sensors are as good as the feds. for example short range scanners range on most starcraft are in the multiple light second range, lets make it a half a light second for the shuttlecraft. Yes ballistic speed objects can be caught and transported.

Yes small metal boxes are often used as cover from low level phased fire, as only low level is used on the show, mostly. You dont want to puncture that electro plasma conduit and kill everyone in the firefight or blow the wall out and get sucked into space.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 09:55 AM
Yes in quite aware of what the fluff states and reads about the tactical ability of the space Marines. They are really good, in fact i would say they are the best warriors in 40k baring say grey knights etc. Unfortunately The Taus sensors while good are still no where as good as The Feds, heck even the star trek universe no ones sensors are as good as the feds. for example short range scanners range on most starcraft are in the multiple light second range, lets make it a half a light second for the shuttlecraft. Yes ballistic speed objects can be caught and transported.

Yes small metal boxes are often used as cover from low level phased fire, as only low level is used on the show, mostly. You dont want to puncture that electro plasma conduit and kill everyone in the firefight or blow the wall out and get sucked into space.

except the drop pod isnt what comes down first, so all of these points are rendered mute. all that prep..all that equipment he has...GONE or disable by precision lance strike or bombing run.

At most..seriously..they would lose the first gunship they sent down for the bombing run.

Camelion cloaks BLOCK everything said sensors are shown to detect. heat signitures, gas immisions. Unless said computer can determine the difference between a rock and a human shaped rock it isnt good enough to detect said Space marine scout mentioned in the plan.
Granted, the gunship is taken down as it tries to bomb the area. Thats when they use an orbital strike.

I doubt that data can make use of his technology as the small bunker he had (an hour i believe you said?) to make during a precision lance strike or bombardment to wipe out the defenses he made.
While hes fiddling and trying to get back on his feet, the marines trained to be FINE in these situations would swoop in and take him out in the fashion I proposed.
This EVEN IF phasers are that good (which is in debate) even IF hes that strong. Even IF transporters can catch things that quick.

Infact lets assume he caught the scout to? then they would send the data gathered from the bomber before it got gimped. So in total he took out 1 scout and 1-2 pilots. Good work Data.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 10:05 AM
I'm sorry.
Does Data have shields? Does he have armor?
Can he absorb a blaster bolt?
Can he take a direct hit from an grenade bullet and live?
Can he chew lightsabers?
How does he stand up to the Force?
Why is this even being considered?

Data's a glorified Threepio with combat training.
EMP or Ion weaponry if he gives you trouble.
How is he going to bring down an entire squad of troops, stormtroopers or Imperial Guards, let alone Space Marines, or Darth Vader or some other named 40K character? It's ridiculous.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 10:10 AM
I'm sorry.
Does Data have shields? Does he have armor?
Can he absorb a blaster bolt?
Can he take a direct hit from an grenade bullet and live?
Can he chew lightsabers?
How does he stand up to the Force?
Why is this even being considered?

Data's a glorified Threepio with combat training.
EMP or Ion weaponry if he gives you trouble.
How is he going to bring down an entire squad of troops, stormtroopers or Imperial Guards, let alone Space Marines, or Darth Vader or some other named 40K character? It's ridiculous.

It was a scenario put forth. And we actually found out verifiably that Data is can apply ~10 times the crushing force of a space marine (no power armor) to a metal bar (far ahead of threepio). He was also given a vast amount of tech and a length of prep time and some breifing on space marine capabilities before the "waves"

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 10:11 AM
It was a scenario put forth. And we actually found out verifiably that Data is can apply ~10 times the crushing force of a space marine (no power armor) to a metal bar (far ahead of threepio). He was also given a vast amount of tech and a length of prep time and some breifing on space marine capabilities before the "waves"
Big deal.
No armor, no shields.
Ion weaponry and EMPs take him out...
And if he's been given time to prepare, than what's that prove?
Canon Data isn't good enough.

EDIT:
For Godssakes, one of his major character points is coming to terms with his own intelligence/sentience!?!? All the AIs in Star Wars got over that millenia ago...

Parra
2011-10-13, 10:14 AM
I assume a Webber is essential a gun that fires a Supertanium Net?
While thats certinaly the way to capture him and while he may break out of it, a punch of marines piling on him while atempting to burst it would certainly prevent this.

However, IF it is essentially a net gun you are looking at already getting pretty close and having an unbstructed field of fire. No poles/trees/whatevers in order to get a guaranteed snare.
Still perfectly doable but its an added complication

While Tau Sensors are certainly superior to IoM's, Im not sure they are quite up to par with Fed Sensors.
That said if a Camelion does as you claim I still think a Tricorder would pick up something. Maybe not enough to pinpoint the scouts location but certainly enough to give a heads-up that something is about to go down.


Does Data have shields? Does he have armor?
Can he absorb a blaster bolt?
Can he take a direct hit from an grenade bullet and live?
Can he chew lightsabers?
How does he stand up to the Force?
Why is this even being considered?

Again its CAPTURE not KILL. A Bolter exploding in his chest is not a 'capture'
Also last I checked the IoM had neither Force users nor Lightsabres
Data has alos been shown to be immune to EMP, no idea what effect an Ion gun would have on him, but I think that is SW tech and not 40k?

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:16 AM
Psykers, and Force Weapons.

Done.

Problem with soulless sentience is that you have none of the barrier of faith to protect your mind.

Cue mindrape (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlPgIKsH6-M).

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 10:16 AM
Big deal.
No armor, no shields.
Ion weaponry and EMPs take him out...
And if he's been given time to prepare, than what's that prove?
Canon Data isn't good enough.

EDIT:
For Godssakes, one of his major character points is coming to terms with his own intelligence/sentience!?!? All the AIs in Star Wars got over that millenia ago...

Well if you read back over the last page or so of stuff this isnt a "data could kick all you guys" it was more "how long would he last against SM's

My proposed argument was "miliseconds" Then the replicator arguments were made, and that turned into "long enough for him to cheap shot a gunship and maybe take out an advance scout." before being captured (that was the win condition)

I have yet to get a proper argument back against my last chunk of points, so its not "concluded" as such.

EDIT for above ninjas:
The webber essentially fires Goo... in roughly the form of a web...that hardens into a "near unbreakable substance that disolves several hours later on its own" so uh...yea :P supertanium.
He can very well struggle free. The issue is after the first shot or two, hes effectivly at the SM's mercy.

The gun itself can be used effectivly (it has a blast radius of 5m) from 100-200 meters away.
Not a net so the implications of cover e.t.c are mute.

Parra
2011-10-13, 10:17 AM
Psykers, and Force Weapons.

Done.

A Force wepon would likely destroy him (as aooposed to simple incapcitation) as would most offensive Psyker abilites.

Killing him is easy

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 10:18 AM
Again its CAPTURE not KILL. A Bolter exploding in his chest is not a 'capture'
Also last I checked the IoM had neither Force users nor Lightsabres
So...
Another handicap for Data?
:smalltongue:
They can't just kill him?

What's the point of this 'exercise', to show how underwhelming the Federation is even in the best of circumstances?
So, maybe the IoM can't lobotomize him with lightsabers or tear him apart with the Force...
But what happens when Data makes his first kill...
Won't he just break down and sob about the precious human life he's just ended?
:smallconfused:


Well if you read back over the last page or so of stuff this isnt a "data could kick all you guys" it was more "how long would he last against SM's
Ah, so this is a how long till he dies thing?


My proposed argument was "miliseconds" Then the replicator arguments were made, and that turned into "long enough for him to cheap shot a gunship and maybe take out an advance scout." before being captured (that was the win condition)
Data gets a replicator too?
:smallconfused:


I have yet to get a proper argument back against my last chunk of points, so its not "concluded" as such.
:smalltongue:

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:18 AM
A Force wepon would likely destroy him (as aooposed to simple incapcitation) as would most offensive Psyker abilites.

Killing him is easy

Read the edit.

MIND RAPE BEAM.

His sentience is not necessary for his mechanics to be extrapolated from.

Also, since this is Adeptus Mechanicus territory then may we go ahead and consider a Tech Marine?

This is something that can rip apart tanks, and he can have 8 of these limbs.

Data is STRONG, but he can't compete with 8 of him.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 10:22 AM
Read the edit.

MIND RAPE BEAM.

Damb you guys are fast.

Mind rape can assumably be ineffective against anything with the machine trait :P

Also Oasy the whole thing is that the thread achieved its goal a while ago...40K won. Now its more "aspect x vs aspect y in situation z"

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:23 AM
Damb you guys are fast.

Mind rape can assumably be ineffective against anything with the machine trait :P

Also Oasy the whole thing is that the thread achieved its goal a while ago...40K won. Now its more "aspect x vs aspect y in situation z"

Mind Rape is effective against anything with sentience. It works on Tau, and they are considered "soulless" by the warp.

And the forces of Chaos have worked on things as simple as cogitators, which are little more than simple machine intelligences on par with super computers.

In 40k, you can mind rape computers.

Parra
2011-10-13, 10:26 AM
So...
Another handicap for Data?
:smalltongue:
They can't just kill him?

What's the point of this 'exercise', to show how underwhelming the Federation is even in the best of circumstances?
So, maybe the IoM can't lobotomize him with lightsabers or tear him apart with the Force...
But what happens when Data makes his first kill...
Won't he just break down and sob about the precious human life he's just ended?
:smallconfused:


Ah, so this is a how long till he dies thing?


Data gets a replicator too?
:smallconfused:


:smalltongue:

man did you even read the scenario we are working through?


I have yet to get a proper argument back against my last chunk of points, so its not "concluded" as such.

My guess is either the 2nd but definatly the 3rd wave.

With out a loose estimate on what they are up against the first group would be subject to all sorts of trickery (hologrames, forcefields, teleporter tricks etc etc) and likely withdraw to rethink.

The second wave would have countermeasures to bypass most of those tricks: Saturate the area with a radiation to negate transports, scanners of some discription to identify Holograms, EMP style weapons to take down forcefields and so forth. Its likely they would take him on this wave depending on how many different tricks he has used at this point.

The Third wave, as the Second but with a counter to what ever creative idea that allowed Data to survive the 2nd. Almost certainly captured this time.

Edit:

Mind Rape is effective against anything with sentience. It works on Tau, and they are considered "soulless" by the warp.

And the forces of Chaos have worked on things as simple as cogitators, which are little more than simple machine intelligences on par with super computers.


Tau are still living, biological creatures

And are Cogitators not essentiall Organic Brains that have been lobotomised to perform the function of a computer, but still actually living.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 10:26 AM
Also Oasy the whole thing is that the thread achieved its goal a while ago...40K won. Now its more "aspect x vs aspect y in situation z"

I know, I know...
This one just seems rather contrived and frankly... Dumb.
Your estimate of milliseconds may have been extravagant... But a prolonged encounter in which Data actually gets a kill and holds his own?
Against trained soldiers?
Of the caliber of the Imperium?
With handicaps?

This one just makes no sense...


man did you even read the scenario we are working through?
I've been hear since thread one, don't ask me if I read the scenario. I'm just trying to understand, why?

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 10:27 AM
Mind Rape is effective against anything with sentience. It works on Tau, and they are considered "soulless" by the warp.

There considered "almost" soulless. Otherwise they would be blanks or untouchables.

Essentially the mind raping would be of a totally different form. Essentially more similar to "when servitors e.t.c" are possessed then mind raped. A psyker could cause them to malfunction which i assume is similar?
ultimatly :P not a mind rape like youd expect.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 10:28 AM
Wait wouldn't the lance strike just glass a state sized chunk of terrain? I mean add orbital strike in and yea no contest. But frankly there isn't much out bar maybe a bolo or a continent suppression vehicle that could withstand that kind of attack....maybe.

Light saber gets transported away. Darths naked and dying a km from his armor and 2km from the shuttle. Actually traditional emp and ion probably wouldn't cut it, positronic circuits not electronic. Although something would do it, we see him randomly get zapped more than couple times in the series and "Lock up". Personal forcefields and various supertech body armor are well within reason and could be fabricated in seconds.

Cameleoline, I've been looking at so far all I see is "it bends light". What fluff should I look it up that describes it as a cloaking device?

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:29 AM
There considered "almost" soulless. Otherwise they would be blanks or untouchables.

Essentially the mind raping would be of a totally different form. Essentially more similar to "when servitors e.t.c" are possessed then mind raped. A psyker could cause them to malfunction which i assume is similar?
ultimatly :P not a mind rape like youd expect.

Yeah, basic Battle Psykers (standard accompaniment to a Guard Regiment.) have this ability called "Curse of the Machine Spirit" which causes a machine to totally shut down, even with things not considered to have machine spirits by the races, and people who made them (namely the Tau, Eldar, and Necrons.), so it's more of a warp pulse that completely shuts down everything it's directed at.

Parra
2011-10-13, 10:29 AM
I've been hear since thread one, don't ask me if I read the scenario. I'm just trying to understand, why?

Well if you have been reading since the start you would understand :smalltongue:

Its just Hypothetical Scenarios for fun

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 10:32 AM
man did you even read the scenario we are working through?



My guess is either the 2nd but definatly the 3rd wave.

With out a loose estimate on what they are up against the first group would be subject to all sorts of trickery (hologrames, forcefields, teleporter tricks etc etc) and likely withdraw to rethink.

The second wave would have countermeasures to bypass most of those tricks: Saturate the area with a radiation to negate transports, scanners of some discription to identify Holograms, EMP style weapons to take down forcefields and so forth. Its likely they would take him on this wave depending on how many different tricks he has used at this point.

The Third wave, as the Second but with a counter to what ever creative idea that allowed Data to survive the 2nd. Almost certainly captured this time.

Edit:


Tau are still living, biological creatures

And are Cogitators not essentiall Organic Brains that have been lobotomised to perform the function of a computer, but still actually living.

....you.....you didnt address my points at all?
EDit:
Yea thats basically what cogitators are. But thats why I say its "less of a mind raping" and more a psychic hacking :P


at The Reverend:
Lance strikes CARVE INTO THE CRUST. Not glass areas -thats star wars. This would most likely KILL data...hence my orbital bombardment suggestion. Depending on the kind of bunker hes made himself they essentially need an orbital bullet calibur that kills everything around it without destroying everything.

Scouts are given cloaks as well as special suits of carapace. It maskes all biosigns and bends light. When all the equipment is said and done, the sensors essentially have to tell the difference between "rock" and "human shaped rock"
Shields e.t.c are of mute point...if your encased in concrete...your encased in concrete.

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:36 AM
What I suggest.

Standard Guard Regiment with a Battle Psyker is placed in this same scenario, but already on the ground.

Battle Psyker casts Curse of the Machine Spirit.

It was super effective.

Data's stunned!

Guardsmen used Stasis Pod.

You caught a Data!

Later

Ad Mechanicus used research.

Data fainted!

What's this? Ad Mechanicus is evolving!

Dun, dun, dun, dun....

Ad mechanicus evolved!

What would you like to name it?

<Reserved for something cool and latiny.>

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 10:41 AM
So do the scouts use radios?


Ah orbital strike, neither side wins.

Curse of the machine spirit, no how do u get the psyker range, and negate the transporter effect?



Buddy of mine just reminded me about the time the feds weaponized a shower, yes they did. It star trek every thing is potentially a weapon.

Stickynet him, data voice activates transporter and is beamed away.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 10:41 AM
Light saber gets transported away. Darths naked and dying a km from his armor and 2km from the shuttle. Actually traditional emp and ion probably wouldn't cut it, positronic circuits not electronic. Although something would do it, we see him randomly get zapped more than couple times in the series and "Lock up". Personal forcefields and various supertech body armor are well within reason and could be fabricated in seconds.
"overriding charges and melting fuses, destroying circuits and effectively rendering any kind of technology useless." -Ion weapons
Positronics are nice, but they're worthless if the actual circuits are destroyed.


Data has one hour to prepare with his personal knowledge, a fully powered replicator, a tricorder, a non-flying shuttle, and a communicator that is suffering from interference so no communication off planet. The shuttle is in a shielded position hiding it from sensors, but not say line of sight observation
And even if he's moving incredibly fast, how could he build a full shuttle? And Where does a transporter appear to take away Darth Vader's suit and his lightsaber, without even letting the Force warn him that he's in danger?
Are transporters even that accurate?
Can a replicator prepare that many materials in an hour?


Why can't Vader simply 'open a channel' to Data and dismantle him with the Force? He can choke a guy across a galaxy...
He can do it from Coruscant, well out of reach of Data's magically-appearing-from-no-where transporter, and take him apart.
After all, Anakin did have a thing for machines.

If the Galactic Empire were coming after Data, according to the stated conditions, and being realistic, he'd last until the stormtroopers and/or Vader made contact.
Same with the Imperium.
Data would get no kills because all he'd have is himself...

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:42 AM
So do the scouts use radios?


Ah orbital strike, neither side wins.

Curse of the machine spirit, no how do u get the psyker range, and negate the transporter effect?



Buddy of mine just reminded me about the time the feds weaponized a shower, yes they did. It star trek every thing is potentially a weapon.

Stickynet him, data voice activates transporter and is beamed away.

...

Psykers act across the warp

Distance is meaningless.

In more realistic sense, the regimental Commisar is smart enough to realize Data likes to talk, and asks for a personal audience with him and his "aide' who proceeds to curse of the machine spirit him, and then Gaunt, being the amazing man he is, has him put in a stasis pod for the Adeptus Mechanicus to disable.

profitofrage
2011-10-13, 10:44 AM
What I suggest.

Standard Guard Regiment with a Battle Psyker is placed in this same scenario, but already on the ground.

Battle Psyker casts Curse of the Machine Spirit.

It was super effective.

Data's stunned!

Guardsmen used Stasis Pod.

You caught a Data!

Later

Ad Mechanicus used research.

Data fainted!

What's this? Ad Mechanicus is evolving!

Dun, dun, dun, dun....

Ad mechanicus evolved!

What would you like to name it?

<Reserved for something cool and latiny.>

nope i disagree.
right were you say "Ad Mechanicus used research."

I think its far more likely its
Ad Mechanicus used "HOLYCRAPIRONMEN!" ad mechanicus stunned itself.

Titan Legions use "BLOWITALLTOHELL" its super effective.

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:48 AM
I was more referring to all the crap Data had with him, Phasers included.

I shudder to think about Guard Regiments with Phasers.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 10:52 AM
I shudder to think about Guard Regiments with Phasers.
Wouldn't they just toss them aside as 'child's toys'? =P

Fan
2011-10-13, 10:58 AM
Wouldn't they just toss them aside as 'child's toys'? =P

Not quite, they'd add a few skulls, take a decade to implement it into the first men on the front lines, add a stock to allow for better aiming (because who outfits their military with PISTOLS? Even autosenses only go so far, and don't function in adverse environments.), and then make sure you have to light incense and pray to it every morning for it to work.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 11:39 AM
I imagine the type four phased rifle is what the guard would be after. Has electronic sights, stock, two pistol grip, aiming adjustment, and you can either stun or on high just explode a crises suit or eldar grav tank. It would make a great tool for cutting, warming, melting, etc. Imagine a thousand IG with beams set to wide and on a high setting walking thru dumb orks charge. Unless their armored with unobtanium, or have force fields.


The shuttle is how data got there, he was riding in it when Q got pissy.

Yes replicators can turn out all manner of objects easily and quickly. If it can turn out something as complex as a thanksgiving dinner it could make any tool data could reasonably ask for, provided it had the raw elements to construct it. Anti-matter probably not but probably wouldn't take took long to jury rig.

I agree with "IRONMENBLOWITALLUP" once a couple of waves had been lost. The comisaar idea is also really good.


As far as power levels go fir phasers ST publishes canon fluff technical manuals that outline their power levels. The upper power levels can disintegrate and explode hundreds of feet of rock. A guardsman would give his left eye for that kind of firepower. If we were going by published official stats on items.....other Universes stuff doesn't look so amazing, but we are allowing narrative fluff more so for those universes .

Fan
2011-10-13, 11:45 AM
That's pretty much how I see the IoM winning the war after a century is with their hyper aggression having allowed them to salvage the (obviously not tainted) weapons, and (Already aptly named) warp drive of the Federation, and that is what allows them to turn the tide against the GE once and for all.

Though only because it was an Ad Mech Explorator fleet that found it.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 11:53 AM
As far as power levels go fir phasers ST publishes canon fluff technical manuals that outline their power levels. The upper power levels can disintegrate and explode hundreds of feet of rock. A guardsman would give his left eye for that kind of firepower.

"Although the Animated Adventures had an undeniable Star Trek-ness to them, they are not considered part of the Star Trek "canon," or accepted Trek storyline. Almost without exception, it is the live-action series and movies that are considered canon. However, some Star Trek "facts" are actually borrowed from the animated show, i.e. the name of the original U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 captain, Robert April; the surname for Spock's mother, Amanda "Grayson"; etc."

- StarTrek.com (Edited by Tim Gaskill), Nov. 2004 - "Introduction to Star Trek" Feature Article (http://www.canonwars.com/STCanonquotes.html#2004-STcom-IntrotoTrek)

There have been earlier versions of technical manuals, including "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" (Shane Johnson) and the "Star Trek Starfleet Technical Manual" (Franz Joseph), but these books, although fun to read, were not written by production personnel and are not considered 'canon.' "

- StarTrek.com (Edited by Tim Gaskill), July 2003 - The StarTrek.com FAQ (http://www.canonwars.com/STCanonquotes.html#2001-STcomFAQ-techmanuals)


If we were going by published official stats on items.....other Universes stuff doesn't look so amazing, but we are allowing narrative fluff more so for those universes .
-Canon Wars (http://www.canonwars.com/STCanon.html#III-C)

"The Star Wars canon consists of the six Star Wars feature films, along with all officially licensed, non-contradicting spin-off works to the six films. As once defined by Lucas Licensing:

We have what we call Canon, which is the screenplays, novelizations, and other works that are directly tied into continuity, and then there are a lot of marginal things, like the old Marvel Comics series, that we don't really try to work into the continuity when we're planning new projects. Even the LucasArts interactive games have a premise, a backstory with player characters that we're trying to tie into the overall continuity. It is sort of a godlike undertaking. We are creating this universe as we go along, but somebody has to keep his finger on everything that came before.
Allan Kausch, from The Secrets of Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire"

Canon of Star Wars explained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon)

Stop whining about what's canon and what's not.
Now if you can actually name a time when a phaser "disintegrate[d] and explode[d] hundreds of feet of rock" that is canonical, please do so.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 11:56 AM
The real problem, and the reason I started the data v spacemaribe discussion, is I can't see the IoM not having to deal with the dangers of the Warp and quickly not being the empire. For example, warp magick is sooooo dangerous precisely because demons might eat your soul or maybe just the planet you r on. Now the inquisitors have all this dark, forbidden, heretical Knowledge and now q reason not to use it. Ditto for thousands of factions they out the IoM. Quickly warp magick will become non heretical, accepted, and widespread. Heck on some worlds it almost is.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 11:59 AM
The real problem, and the reason I started the data v spacemaribe discussion, is I can't see the IoM not having to deal with the dangers of the Warp and quickly not being the empire.
So, wait...
First, 'the Imperium couldn't possibly manage to fight this war because of its beauracracy and the long time it takes for information to spread'...
And now it's that without the Warp and it's problems, they won't actually function?

Which is it?

Fan
2011-10-13, 11:59 AM
The real problem, and the reason I started the data v spacemaribe discussion, is I can't see the IoM not having to deal with the dangers of the Warp and quickly not being the empire. For example, warp magick is sooooo dangerous precisely because demons might eat your soul or maybe just the planet you r on. Now the inquisitors have all this dark, forbidden, heretical Knowledge and now q reason not to use it. Ditto for thousands of factions they out the IoM. Quickly warp magick will become non heretical, accepted, and widespread. Heck on some worlds it almost is.

Um..

Psykers aren't heresy.

It's Warp Sorcery (pandering to the dark powers via rituals) that is heresy.

The Imperium cares not where it's weapons come from so long as they are not tainted by the Xenos, or The Enemy.

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 12:48 PM
Phaser blows up a building seeTNG: frame of mind, tunnels thru rock TNG: chain of command part 1.
Disintegrating TOS what are little girls made of, TNG the vengeance factor, first contact movie,


Oh the empire will get along quite well without the horrors of the warp, no more chaos Marines, ships finally run on time. In fact I dare say the entire tenor of the empire begins to change in a decade or two. Remote parts of the empire once cut off become accessible and its communications become normalized. SUV sector and world governors are no linger cut off from their sector government for decades and the administrator finally gets a population count of howany worlds the empire controls, a new age dawns. A new age that really doesn't require the epic level of brutality that has pulled the empire thru the dark age. The feds will fall. The GE will fall. But a lack of internal threats and external threats will lead to a sea change in how the empire is conducted. Inquisitors for example , why invest so much authority in one man when the threats are gone, communications are easy, and transport easy convenient and safe? I think the empire would thrive it just won't look like the empire we know. And that makes me sadder than beaten pony.

TheOasysMaster
2011-10-13, 01:00 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_Mind_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Are_Little_Girls_Made_Of%3F

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vengeance_Factor
Are these the right episodes? I don't want to waste time streaming them if they're incorrect.
And what part/time of First Contact?


In fact I dare say the entire tenor of the empire begins to change in a decade or two.
Are you postulating that the Federation and the Galactic Empire would last fifteen years?


A new age that really doesn't require the epic level of brutality that has pulled the empire thru the dark age.
That might be true, and I say might, but within the scope of this debate-that's irrelevant.


I think the empire would thrive it just won't look like the empire we know. And that makes me sadder than beaten pony.
Okay...
And the Star Wars Galactic Empire is the Empire...
The 40K Imperium of Man is the Imperium...

It's confusing with the cross-referencing...

The Reverend
2011-10-13, 01:16 PM
Yes I think those are all correct, you can skip to the end with the vengeance factor if i remember correctly. I actually think the feds would last longer, but only because the IoM would be throwing their resources at the GE who are no slouches them selves, after that the feds would have wised up and pulled some CRAZY tech out of their engineers nether regions and have signed treaties pledging themselves on paper as an ally. I believe the empire would look at them and say "not out main worry" and be somewhat open to negotiations....till they have the GE fought down.

The feds could possibly argue that most of the aliens are actually mutant humans, kinda truish according to the show.