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pseudodragon
2011-10-07, 08:28 PM
i heard about something called roll to disbelieve. what is it? i know it has something to do with a will save, but i don't know about it other then that, please tell me.

Telonius
2011-10-07, 08:33 PM
It's a Will save, mainly used with Illusion spells. You (normally) get a will save to see through the illusion. Players often will say, "Roll to disbelieve" to see if they can tell whether or not the unexpected weird thing is actually there.

HunterOfJello
2011-10-07, 11:44 PM
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isnít real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.


Illusions seem real because they effect both your senses and your mind itself. You usually get a saving throw once you actually interact with an illusion because there is no reason for you to think that one out of 3 walls in front of you isn't a real wall at all.

It's kind of a weird concept.

Anderlith
2011-10-08, 05:29 AM
Don't bother rolling to disbelieve, just close your eyes & charge that illusionary wall

Lorn
2011-10-08, 05:53 AM
Don't bother rolling to disbelieve, just close your eyes & charge that illusionary wall
Assuming it's just an illusionary wall (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=56) :smalltongue:

kaomera
2011-10-08, 11:14 AM
The way I learned it in 1e was that there are basically two types of illusions: those that are strictly images, with no actual substance (and this can be projected into the targets' minds or you can create an actual "hologram"-type image), and those that are "quasi-real", usually described as being formed out of "shadow stuff". In either case usually you couldn't take a saving throw (vs. spells, usually) unless the player had determined that something was (or at least might be) amiss. (And I'll note: there where several interpretations of illusions, with various articles in dragon and even some third-party supplements, and it wasn't always clear what type of illusion a given spell was supposed to be.)

In the first case, with the image-type, this was basically an attempt to find flaws in the image that would clue the character in as to what was going on. So, something like a perception check, but rolled as a save for mechanical reasons (in 1e: no perception skill, in later versions rolling it as a save kept it on the same ground (in terms of DCs and what-all) as other spells). If your character could interact with the illusion in a way that proved it wasn't real then the save was assumed to have been passed automatically. The specific reason for the "disbelief" mechanic in this case was that the player might know (or think that they knew) that something was an illusion, but that the character wasn't going to take stupid or suicidal actions based on the information unless the character also thought it wasn't real. On the other side of the coin this also kept DMs from making seem something seem like an illusion and killing off characters unfairly by tricking the players.

In the second case, with "shadow-magic", the "quasi-reality" of the illusion is maintained by the belief of the viewers. Disbelief works more as a standard "Will-save" in this case (spell save in 1e, because that was how it worked), and in some cases a successful save might even end the spell entirely, rather than just convincing your character that it's an illusion. (In the case of images, even if you made your save you couldn't always actually literally see through them...)

WalkingTarget
2011-10-08, 11:46 AM
Relevant Another Gaming Comic (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=53) description (early in the comic's run, the "art" has improved since then, but is largely irrelevant to the discussions that the players have anyway). The conversation is prompted by what happened in the game a few strips prior to this one and the fallout continues for another half-dozen strips, but this is where a description of "disbelieve" happens.

Calanon
2011-10-09, 06:06 AM
Its usually something that a player will say many times if and when they fight an Illusionist in fact it is one of my major reasons for NOT playing an Illusionist

*Player sees a pit fiend*
"Illusionist" : HAHAHA! YOU CANNOT SEE THROUGH MY ILLUSIONS!
Player: I roll to disbelieve your Illusion! (rolls nat 20)
"Illusionist": Btw... did i mention I had ranks in Bluff? OH did I also mention I'm a Conjurer...
Player: ...I again roll to disbelieve!
Pit Fiend: "Num num num... your soul makes my belly happy..."

when your fighting an Illusionist just remember

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljyvpmxrlN1qzmowao1_400.png
If it sounds to good (or bad) to be true, it probably is... or the DM hates you

Douglas
2011-10-09, 12:26 PM
Assuming it's just an illusionary wall (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=56) :smalltongue:
And here I thought that would be a link to this one (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=541).

Golden Ladybug
2011-10-11, 05:37 AM
The best time to roll to Disbelieve is when your Party has just got its ass handed to it by a Level innapropriate Encounter, and you're the last one standing. As the Balor slowly advances towards, take out your best set of dice and roll to not believe in Demons.

IF you took my advice and used your best dice here, you'll get a 20, and all demons in your games Cosmology will stop existing. You can thank me later :smallwink:

Results may vary; Golden Ladybug is not responsible for any TPKs that may result from attempting this tactic

BlackestOfMages
2011-10-11, 06:28 AM
True, but at that point the disbelieving is more of a 'making your last moments pleasent' style and less anything else.

unless you fond some ungodly way to crossbreed it with iron heart surge...

...the thought horrifies me

Golden Ladybug
2011-10-13, 04:42 AM
I always like to imagine Iron Heart Surge as a Cyberpunkish Computer type deal. Completely contrary to the fluff, and even basic common sense, but the idea of a holographic computer eye appearing before you and flashing a few times, before asking in a robotic monotone.

"State Condition to be Removed"

Then, a battle scarred and worndown warrior flicking his eyes up and replying "My enemies continue to exist"

"IRON! HEART! SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURGE!"

Nerd-o-rama
2011-10-14, 09:35 AM
Successfully rolling to disbelieve something that actually exists is the only prerequisite for the "Solipsist" prestige class.

Muz
2011-10-14, 12:47 PM
The thing that's always bugged me (I'm from 2nd edition) with disbelieving is that it SEEMS that you have to spend an entire round trying to disbelieve, doing nothing else, potentially making yourself a target.

It is possible that I misinterpreted/misremembered the rules here, so please correct me if so.

On the other hand, I don't like the idea of there being NO consequence or risk in trying to disbelieve something, as then the players would just disbelieve in every round of combat ever, just to be safe in case there is an illusion.

tl;dr - Disbelieving mechanics annoy and confuddle me.

Flickerdart
2011-10-14, 12:51 PM
On the other hand, I don't like the idea of there being NO consequence or risk in trying to disbelieve something, as then the players would just disbelieve in every round of combat ever, just to be safe in case there is an illusion.
There are no consequences to try and disbelieve, but there are requirements. That is, you have to actually interact with the illusion, which can consume an action or provoke an attack of opportunity.

Muz
2011-10-14, 01:36 PM
There are no consequences to try and disbelieve, but there are requirements. That is, you have to actually interact with the illusion, which can consume an action or provoke an attack of opportunity.

Ahh, you mean it's not just blinking and rubbing your eyes at the dragon that's appeared out of nowhere, but actually trying to touch it, get hit by it, or just hurl a stick through it? That makes more sense. (I wonder if that's a change for 3rd edition over 2nd?)