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drawingfreak
2011-10-08, 02:01 PM
My Game Master is setting our Saga Edition game in an alternate universe where the Empire is still around during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. The turning point is that Obi-Wan died of natural causes before he could intervene in A New Hope.

While speculating, the depiction of events in the movies take precedent over the Expanded Universe mostly due to the movies having more exposure and being more familiar.

How Kenobi's Death Changes Things

Luke Skywalker: With Obi-Wan dead, no one is there to save Luke from the Sandpeople. After tearing apart the speeder, the Sandpeople drag Luke back to their village to be used as a slave, or food, or both. One way or another, he suffers physical trauma in one form or another, perhaps losing an eye or a limb. As a Force sensitive, Luke eventually manages to escape, perhaps no more than a week after being captured. He is discovered near Motesta where he learns about the death of his aunt and uncle. Luke makes a living at Anchorhead until he can manage to get into the Imperial Academy.

As time passes, Luke's natural talent for flying gets him noticed by higher powers. Discovering that he is a Force Sensitive, Luke is brought before Darth Vader. Filled with anger due to the Sandpeople capture and the loss of his family, Luke is turned to the Dark Side and eventually becomes the leader of the 501st fighter squadron.

C3-P0: Threepio is forgotten where he fell after the Sandpeople attacked. Eventually realizing that no one is coming to find him, Threepio picks up his arm and walks toward the Lars Farmstead. Before he can make it back, he is picked up by Jawas once again. They reattach his arm before selling him "new" to a smuggler in Mos Espa. The smuggler was eventually caught by the Empire and his possessions sold at auction, including the golden droid. Threepio is currently in the service of an Imperial Moff somewhere in the Core, devoid of all previous memories.

R2-D2: After the botched escape from the Lars Farmstead, Artoo remained one step behind Luke. The little droid was about to hatch an escape plan when Luke got away from the Sandpeople. Artoo was helpless to do nothing but watch from a distance as Luke was rescued outside Motesta.

R2-D2 wandered the sands of Tatooine before recognizing the face of a former Tantive IV crewmember, not aboard at the time of the ship's capture. The crewmember was on a mission for the Rebellion Remnant to see if anyone managed to escape the Tantive IV's capture and hopefully rediscover the plans to the Death Star. Artoo managed to sneak aboard the ship of this former crewmember and revealed to him Leia's message to prove he was aboard the Tantive IV. The information was too late to save Yavin IV, but perhaps the Rebellion could eventually find a way to overthrow the Empire with this information.

Princess Leia Organa: Before our heroes could save Princess Leia in A New Hope, she was scheduled to be terminated for lying about the location of the Rebel base. In this new reality, Vader senses something in her and he convinces Grand Moff Tarkin to not exterminate her. The torture continued and a year later, Leia broke. She revealed the location of the Rebellion base on Yavin IV and the names of several high profile contributors to the cause.

She remains imprisoned by the Empire on a high security facility on Coruscant, slowly growing more separated from reality with each passing year from the guilt of her betrayal.

Han Solo: Han is currently dead, a prisoner of Jabba the Hutt, or in deep seclusion. If he is still free of Jabba, Han is literally the most profitable bounty on the market. Dead or Alive, bringing him to Jabba the Hutt on Tatooine will allow them to retire in luxury.

Chewbacca: I am going to assume that Chewbacca is either dead trying to save Han at one time or another, or imprisoned by Jabba, once again, trying to save Han.

The Rebellion: The Rebellion took a crippling blow when Leia broke under the interrogations. Yavin IV was destroyed with little opposition and many of the transports that escaped were easily tracked. In the years to follow, many contributors to the Rebel cause were arrested and their finances taken to serve the Imperial war machine.

The Rebellion Remnant continued to suffer as many of the remaining members considered the Rebellion a lost cause, giving up the good fight in favor of survival. Currently the Rebellion has the plans to the Death Star, but not enough funding to launch an assault.

The Empire: The Empire continues to rule through fear, now with two Death Stars at its command and a continually growing number of additional superweapons, including the Shawken Device, the Sun Crusher, and the Galaxy Gun.

Coidzor
2011-10-08, 02:58 PM
You mean to post this in the Roleplaying Games section? :smallconfused:

drawingfreak
2011-10-08, 03:04 PM
I thought Media was more appropriate. I'm not looking for a Roleplaying discussion, just general speculation on the Star Wars universe.

Gaius Marius
2011-10-08, 09:02 PM
I thought Media was more appropriate. I'm not looking for a Roleplaying discussion, just general speculation on the Star Wars universe.

Let's see. If we take the whole EU as we know it, and apply this to this single divergence point, we can assume a few things.

- Let's track down all known living Jedi, and project where they acted.

- Let's remember that Vader was directly competing with a very powerful Crime Lord in Xizor. This one was the key lieutenant Palpatine had over the Galactic Crime Underworld. Xizor was like, the Godfather to the Nth Degree. And he got randomly killed by stupid rebels.

- What happened of Yoda?

- Grand Admiral Thrawn probably conquers the whole Periphery, and probably controls more power than the Emperor. He could potentially rebel if he so wished so.

Hmmm.. Did I forget something else?

Coidzor
2011-10-08, 09:18 PM
With the Rebellion's military arm shot up by the Yavin massacre, though, with an extra year to build and spread, that seems doubtful, to say the least, this analysis is entirely overlooking the terrorist aspects of the Rebellion, which would assuredly grow in importance in a vacuumn of other possible forms of resistance.

Mando Knight
2011-10-08, 09:40 PM
- Let's remember that Vader was directly competing with a very powerful Crime Lord in Xizor. This one was the key lieutenant Palpatine had over the Galactic Crime Underworld. Xizor was like, the Godfather to the Nth Degree. And he got randomly killed by stupid rebels.

On the other hand, this time Vader manages to squeeze the location of the Rebel base out of Leia, practically annihilating the Rebellion in one swift stroke. Mon Mothma, Jan Dodonna, Wedge Antilles... a lot of important figures to the Rebellion were stationed at the Yavin base, and if they were there when it blew, their command structure would be crippled, reducing the Rebellion almost completely to local conflicts easily put down... if any were fool enough to rebel when a planet-destroying terror was flying free throughout the Galaxy and under Palpatine's control, without Skywalker, Solo, and Antilles flying to the rescue.

Xizor's position as potential right-hand to Palpatine would be substantially weakened with Vader's success, and without the Rebellion in the way, the Empire would eventually turn its gaze towards both the Black Sun and the Hutt crime lords.

factotum
2011-10-09, 06:06 AM
If you're just going with the canon from the films, it seems far more likely to me that Leia was executed aboard the Death Star as planned. The way you've pitched it is, IMHO, just an attempt to keep all the known characters around in such a vastly different universe, regardless of the likelihood of this.

With the Death Star not destroyed, and the Rebellion having no realistic way to do so without the knowledge of the exhaust port, it seems pretty clear the Rebellion would either be rapidly crushed, or would have to become even more covert. The latter idea, to my mind, is actually quite interesting; what if the Rebellion have become an almost entirely covert organisation, acting behind the scenes where they can?

Saintheart
2011-10-09, 09:00 PM
The angle with Leia is interesting, and indeed the Dark Horse Star Wars: Infinities (ANH only) is a nice try at AU which seems moderately plausible. (The divergence point being that Luke's shot on the Death Star missed.)

Indeed she was slated for execution: when they found out Dantooine only had the remains of the Rebel Base there, it hit Tarkin's Beserk Button (well, sort of) and he gave Vader orders to "terminate her. Immediately." Although interestingly there's still enough Plot Time for the gang to conveniently turn up at the Death Star.

The other thing is, and it's the biggest unanswered question the trilogy presents us in-universe: if Vader could sense the Force potential in Luke, and Leia also has the same potential, how come he never sensed it in Leia despite having hours and hours of time to evaluate her resistance to the mind probe? The Dark Horse comics basically have Vader seducing Leia to the Dark Side (though he amazingly still doesn't realise it's his daughter), so perhaps that, too, is a change in the AU to be considered?

Lastly, you have to bear in mind Vader's intended treachery against the Emperor: when he learns Luke is alive (if you leave aside some of the more way out canon like, well, both The Force Unleashed games) Vader immediately goes to the old Sith standard of betraying and replacing one's master. You can't assume Vader would have abandoned that idea in the interim.

Mando Knight
2011-10-09, 09:39 PM
Leia's Force potential throughout the movies is largely untapped. There's probably some kind of "awakening" that causes a Force user's presence to be more easily detected. Since Vader wasn't looking for Force potential in Leia, he probably simply never noticed that hidden well of power.

Also... a different AU to think about.
Everything you know is wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05av9iJvgiQ)... after a fashion

The Old Republic was a terrible mess of bureaucrats and corporate bigwigs. Worse of it all was the Jedi Order, an elitist faction empowered by the mystical Force and who essentially turned the judicial system into their own galaxy-wide racketeering ring. However, an ambitious politician named Palpatine secretly worked behind the scenes to push the Senate and the corporate world into conflict, so that he could take advantage of it to weed out the corruption in both sectors.

Near the end of the resulting Clone Wars, the Jedi realized what Palpatine was doing and assaulted him in his office. Revealing himself to be the mythical Sith Lord, he engaged the Jedi Order's master enforcer Mace Windu in combat, but would have been defeated if not for the actions of an idealistic young Jedi named Anakin Skywalker, realizing that Palpatine could bring about the peace that the galaxy so desperately needed. (And so that he could redeem the egotistical Senator Amidala, who had become pregnant with his children during their brief love affair...)

Anakin's mentor, Obi-Wan, confronted him on the planet Mustafar as he was arresting the remaining leaders of the rebellious Confederation of Independent Systems. Their duel at the volcanic Separatist base resulted in Anakin nearly losing his life, and Obi-Wan kidnapping Senator Amidala, having learned of the potential of the children she carried.

Over the twenty years since then, Palpatine has managed to restructure the government under good and honorable local governors while also introducing plans for a massive mining laser to shatter barren worlds so their resources could be extracted and revive the post-war economy. However, due to numerous attacks by the Rebel Alliance (a terrorist faction composing of disgruntled Senators, corporate officers, and numerous ruffians) on the massive structure, Palpatine feared what would happen should the Rebels take control of such a powerful platform, and ordered it to be reinforced with mil-spec defenses and a large garrison, even sending Skywalker, now known as Palpatine's right-hand man Lord Vader, to personally oversee the garrison. Meanwhile, the Rebels have obtained a copy of the plans to the station...

polity4life
2011-10-10, 07:56 AM
Let's see. If we take the whole EU as we know it, and apply this to this single divergence point, we can assume a few things.

- Let's track down all known living Jedi, and project where they acted.

- Let's remember that Vader was directly competing with a very powerful Crime Lord in Xizor. This one was the key lieutenant Palpatine had over the Galactic Crime Underworld. Xizor was like, the Godfather to the Nth Degree. And he got randomly killed by stupid rebels.

- What happened of Yoda?

- Grand Admiral Thrawn probably conquers the whole Periphery, and probably controls more power than the Emperor. He could potentially rebel if he so wished so.

Hmmm.. Did I forget something else?

I think the Thrawn's survival would certainly affect the outcome of the
efforts to repel the Yuuzhan invasion. I don't think he would go rebel especailly if we consider his character after the retcons deeper exploration of his character and motives. If I remember correctly, he was fighting the New Republic in an effort to reconsolidate power to repel the Yuuzhan as a unified front headed by the military would present a stiffer challenge than a diverse, representative government of civilians.

Oh, and the Solo kids would obviously be out of the picture. No heroics, no blowing up of allied fleets with the crazy death ray around Corillea, and no Darth Caedus.

EDIT: Oh, another crazy point of consideration is Mara Jade. Is she trained up by the Emperor? Does she try to rival Darth Vader?

GeekGirl
2011-10-10, 11:45 AM
EDIT: Oh, another crazy point of consideration is Mara Jade. Is she trained up by the Emperor? Does she try to rival Darth Vader?

I wouldn't think so. She wasn't being trained as his apprentice, just as his hand. She was not much more than an assassin. We also find out that sh was not the only "Emperor's Hand."

polity4life
2011-10-10, 11:56 AM
I wouldn't think so. She wasn't being trained as his apprentice, just as his hand. She was not much more than an assassin. We also find out that sh was not the only "Emperor's Hand."

You know what, you're right. I forgot that her hatred for Vader stemmed from his betrayal of Palpatine, which wouldn't have happened in this continuity. Good call.

But that does bring up the issue of the galaxy lacking powerful Force users come time for the invasion. However, enough superweapons, a militarized social structure that would likely be forcibly applied to all worlds, and a bona fide galaxy-wide war time economy would certainly make up that gap.

Hands_Of_Blue
2011-10-10, 12:09 PM
If he was dying of old age, wouldn't Obi-Wan have gone to Luke earlier, or just appeared to him as a Force Ghost after he died?

polity4life
2011-10-10, 12:12 PM
If he was dying of old age, wouldn't Obi-Wan have gone to Luke earlier, or just appeared to him as a Force Ghost after he died?

Perhaps he contracted some sort of terminal disease?

I'm not sure if Obi-Wan could manifest with Luke taking notice. From what I've seen and read, only those who have been trained to wield the Force can interact with these Force ghosts. As Luke has no training whatsoever and didn't start to see Ben's ghost until Empire, well after some training, he probably wouldn't have any ability to communicate with Ben.

hamishspence
2011-10-10, 12:44 PM
The angle with Leia is interesting, and indeed the Dark Horse Star Wars: Infinities (ANH only) is a nice try at AU which seems moderately plausible. (The divergence point being that Luke's shot on the Death Star missed.)

There's two others- in the ESB one Luke dies on Hoth in the snowstorm, and in the RoTJ one 3PO's head gets knocked off during the scene in Jabba's Palace where Leia arrives with Chewie.

Coidzor
2011-10-10, 12:57 PM
no Darth Caedus.

And isn't it just so worth it? :smallbiggrin:

Brother Oni
2011-10-10, 02:05 PM
The torture continued and a year later, Leia broke. She revealed the location of the Rebellion base on Yavin IV and the names of several high profile contributors to the cause.

Question - if the Alliance knows that the Empire has captured a high ranking Rebel member who knows the location of their secret base, why are they still on Yavin 4 a year later?

The high profile contributors are a different issue; I can certainly see Vader launching simultaneous raids to scoop them all up at once, so the capture of one doesn't alert the others.

drawingfreak
2011-10-10, 04:53 PM
Question - if the Alliance knows that the Empire has captured a high ranking Rebel member who knows the location of their secret base, why are they still on Yavin 4 a year later?

The high profile contributors are a different issue; I can certainly see Vader launching simultaneous raids to scoop them all up at once, so the capture of one doesn't alert the others.

In A New Hope, Vader ordered that the official word on the raid of the Tantive IV was that everyone on board was killed. If everyone was dead, there would be no one to torture for information on the Rebellion's location. Hence, they remained on Yavin 4.

I will admit, I kept Leia alive for purely roleplaying game reasons. As a player, should I some how come across these popular characters in an Alternate setting, seeing them broken and changed for the worse would have a stronger impact and be far more interesting. Han and Chewie were kind of doomed though.

factotum
2011-10-11, 01:32 AM
In A New Hope, Vader ordered that the official word on the raid of the Tantive IV was that everyone on board was killed. If everyone was dead, there would be no one to torture for information on the Rebellion's location.

And if the Rebellion actually *believed* that, they're clearly idiots who deserved to be defeated anyway. A ship carrying one of your highest-ranking members is "destroyed" by the Empire, you assume that everyone aboard has been captured and suborned, no matter what the official line is!

Ninjadeadbeard
2011-10-11, 02:36 AM
- What happened of Yoda?

Actually, yeah. What did happen to him? I'd hate to think he dies alone and forgotten on some moon, his ghost forever despairing at the final triumph of evil and the destruction of all he cared for.:smallfrown:

Although it might make a good quest...

Saintheart
2011-10-11, 03:38 AM
Perhaps he contracted some sort of terminal disease?

I'm not sure if Obi-Wan could manifest with Luke taking notice. From what I've seen and read, only those who have been trained to wield the Force can interact with these Force ghosts. As Luke has no training whatsoever and didn't start to see Ben's ghost until Empire, well after some training, he probably wouldn't have any ability to communicate with Ben.

There's also that Owen Lars had basically forbidden Luke from going anywhere near Obi-Wan, and had in turn told Obi-Wan to stay away from Luke as well. We're never given why Owen gets snotty with Obi-Wan on screen; the semi-semi-semi-kinda-AU-canon explanation is that Darth Maul somehow survived his bisection at Theed, ignored the Emperor, and then spends the rest of the PT unsuccessfully stalking Obi-Wan For Great Revenge, eventually catching up with him at the Lars' residence on Tatooine. It's in the aftermath of this fight that Lars tells Obi-Wan to stay away from Luke.

Weezer
2011-10-11, 09:40 AM
There's also that Owen Lars had basically forbidden Luke from going anywhere near Obi-Wan, and had in turn told Obi-Wan to stay away from Luke as well. We're never given why Owen gets snotty with Obi-Wan on screen; the semi-semi-semi-kinda-AU-canon explanation is that Darth Maul somehow survived his bisection at Theed, ignored the Emperor, and then spends the rest of the PT unsuccessfully stalking Obi-Wan For Great Revenge, eventually catching up with him at the Lars' residence on Tatooine. It's in the aftermath of this fight that Lars tells Obi-Wan to stay away from Luke.

I'd always assumed that Lars was anti-Obi Wan because he saw Anakin leave with Jedi and then turn evil and start killing everything. This made Lars afraid that the same thing could happen to the kid he raised. He was shown to be overprotective about letting Luke leave for training, makes sense he'd be the same about the possibility of Obi Wan leading him down the same path as his father. I'm pretty sure most of that is either stated outright or implied in ANH.

Tiki Snakes
2011-10-11, 03:23 PM
Here's a thought;
A major theme of A New Hope is not so much Han Solo earning enough money to pay off Jabba and survive as it is Han Solo's moral redemption.

I don't think in an AU situation he'd necessarily be doomed. He can certainly handle your average bounty hunter easily enough, if it comes to it. Hell, he handled Boba Fett without even looking!

I think the most likely difference with Han is the route he'd have taken to solve his problem, rather than whether or not he'd have been able to solve the problem. This could have meant him getting deeper into the criminal side of things, or even turning his hand to bounty hunting himself.

Which would, much like leaving a broken guilty Leia for players to encounter, leave a hardened, much more cynical and much less golden-hearted Han around for the players to bump into, (Or be on the run from?)

Oh, and I tend to assume Lars didn't want Luke growing up to be like his father because Anakin went off to be a great warrior and got himself killed, reguardless of how much 'Glory' he'd earned along the way. Much better to live to be an old moisture farmer, etc etc. He wouldn't want Ben getting such ideas in Luke's head incase he rushed off for a (short) life of adventure likewise. The irony being that not only did Anakin live long enough to become the badguy, but he also outlived Lars, by at least two films. :smallwink:

Hands_Of_Blue
2011-10-11, 03:32 PM
I'm pretty sure most of that is either stated outright or implied in ANH.
Beru: Owen, he can't stay here forever; most of his friends have gone. It means so much to him.
Owen: I'll make it up to him next year; I promise.
Beru: Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.
Owen: That's what I'm afraid of. So yeah, Owen knew, but I don't think he'd be enough to stop a dying Obi-Wan from getting to what he considered that last hope of the galaxy.

Tiki Snakes
2011-10-11, 03:40 PM
Thing is, Lars not really knowing about the Dark-Side thing makes more meta-sense anyway, as the chances of Lucas having decided that was the case by that point were tiny. (If I recall correctly, I don't think he'd ruled out the idea of Boba Fett being Vader's brother at that point, yet, let alone decided that Vader was the daddy).

I like the interpretation where he doesn't want him being a war-hero-jedi because they get killed, more, partly because I do like to imagine the real anakin skywalker as very much having been an all-american style action hero and it fits well with that. :smallsmile:

The Reverend
2011-10-11, 04:19 PM
i think long term survival of the empire in some form, especially with 2, or by this time more, death stars during the Vong invasion would mean that the Vong would meet incredible resistance. If Thrawn is still around they literally have no hope and would be stopped at the outer periphery. The bevy of super weapons, the fact 1 count them 1 corporation can be the ENTIRE LOGISTICS TRAIN to build a Death Star means that the Logisitcal abilities of the Empire along with their incredibly fast travel speeds mean utter destruction to the Vong war machine. Within 6 months you could even have the death stars main cannon altered to delivered rapid continuous pulse fire ideal for destroying their puny world ships. barring that toss an old cruiser at it going a fair percentage of light speed. By that time tie fighters would long gone and those swarm like Tie-Es would just blacken the void with their crushing numbers, continuously churned out by world devestators devoiring the remnants of the world ships. Frankly if I were the vong i would go find another galaxy to jihad on.

Brother Oni
2011-10-11, 05:50 PM
And if the Rebellion actually *believed* that, they're clearly idiots who deserved to be defeated anyway. A ship carrying one of your highest-ranking members is "destroyed" by the Empire, you assume that everyone aboard has been captured and suborned, no matter what the official line is!

Especially if the 'official line' is the one being put out by the opposing side. :smalltongue:


Which would, much like leaving a broken guilty Leia for players to encounter, leave a hardened, much more cynical and much less golden-hearted Han around for the players to bump into, (Or be on the run from?)

I agree that Han would pretty much be able stay one step ahead of any bounty hunters that Jabba may send (I believe it took Vader himself and a very well planned trap to catch them in TESB), even Boba Fett.

All that running would make him a lot more paranoid and cynical as you've said, although I doubt he'd be after the players - he's a smuggler, not a bounty hunter.

Aotrs Commander
2011-10-11, 06:48 PM
i think long term survival of the empire in some form, especially with 2, or by this time more, death stars during the Vong invasion would mean that the Vong would meet incredible resistance. If Thrawn is still around they literally have no hope and would be stopped at the outer periphery. The bevy of super weapons, the fact 1 count them 1 corporation can be the ENTIRE LOGISTICS TRAIN to build a Death Star means that the Logisitcal abilities of the Empire along with their incredibly fast travel speeds mean utter destruction to the Vong war machine. Within 6 months you could even have the death stars main cannon altered to delivered rapid continuous pulse fire ideal for destroying their puny world ships. barring that toss an old cruiser at it going a fair percentage of light speed. By that time tie fighters would long gone and those swarm like Tie-Es would just blacken the void with their crushing numbers, continuously churned out by world devestators devoiring the remnants of the world ships. Frankly if I were the vong i would go find another galaxy to jihad on.

I would concur, with the exception that I would say it is possible - perhaps even likely - that without the rebellion's interference and drain on resources, Admiral Zaarin's attempt coup - if it occured at all - would have been crushed much faster, leaving open the spectre of the vong dealing with widespread TIE Defenders and worse, Missile Boats as a frequent part of the Imperial arsenal.

It is also quite possible, given the intervening time, the Emporer could have comissioned more Death Stars (as if he trusted anyone enough to have two floating around...)

A third-generation Death Star at the heart of a fully, stocked, fully supplied and elite Imperial Fleet under the command of Grand Admiral Thrawn, stocked full of TIE Defenders, Missile Boats and likely newer models of the same, backed by swarms of of the TIE Experimentals (experimental no longer) and all the other toys the Empire had to hand (cloaks - with the extra time an money they might even have been able to get them working - Thrawn's coloning methods, the Phantom TIEs, the Dark Troopers etc etc) - the vong invasion would likely have crumbled with extraordinary speed.

The value of another forty-odd years of Imperial governance (and uninterrupted funding that would bring) on the Imperial military war machine and it's supply-line cannot be overstated. (Regardless of it's effect on the populace - and whether you consider this to be a good thing or not! (Me, I'm an Imperial loyalist, so this postulated reality is like, the most awesome thing ever!))

Gaius Marius
2011-10-11, 08:10 PM
And isn't it just so worth it? :smallbiggrin:

Since we have to suffer with no Emperor Fel or Imperial Knights, then I say it's a net loss.

Aotrs Commander
2011-10-12, 07:59 AM
Since we have to suffer with no Emperor Fel or Imperial Knights, then I say it's a net loss.

In my opinion, anything that renders the New Jedi Order and beyond nonexistant is a good thing. I couldn't read past the first three of the latter (if freakin' Stackpole couldn't make me like the direction they were going, no-one else stood a cat in hell's chance - since Zhan wisely declined to go there) and got half way through the Legacy/Caedus stuff's second book and both times gave up (again, Allston just about kept me going but then Traviss's first book (the second in the series) I found too dull to even finish).

Reading the wookiepedia entries (and in the case of the former, the novel synopsis one the books themselves at the time), they both seemed like one long series of character and known-planet deaths (and argueably character derailment in some cases) over the course of the novels anyway, and I find the currently common media reliance of having to kill stuff/blow it up to make "drama" to be both lazy writing and narratively wasteful.



Besides, why would anyone want a watered-down, not-very-evil Empire with nearly-Jedi when you can have the real thing with Sith?

(Just more proof, that in Star Wars at least, the bad guys are never allowed to keep anything cool.)



(In my personal canon, the vong ran right into a newly-cloned Thrawn (because really? Only one cloning tube? Please!) and his secret army got completely and quietly massecred, and the heroes at least got a fairly nice happy ending or something.)

Coidzor
2011-10-14, 01:27 AM
Since we have to suffer with no Emperor Fel or Imperial Knights, then I say it's a net loss.

That's the Legacy Era. So, no, that would not be a net loss, it'd be a net gain, since something new could be done there instead.

hamishspence
2011-10-14, 04:14 AM
(In my personal canon, the vong ran right into a newly-cloned Thrawn (because really? Only one cloning tube? Please!) and his secret army got completely and quietly massecred, and the heroes at least got a fairly nice happy ending or something.)

In Vision of the Future, the "threat" mentioned by Fel, is portrayed as something that, even with all the power of the Republic, surviving Galactic Empire, and Empire of the Hand, united with Thrawn at their head, wouldn't have had a guarantee of defeating- and the Fel clones are his contingency plan for defeat- people to lead uprisings against it.

This was just before the Vong novels came out.

In Survivor's Quest, Luke and Mara, struck by the deviousness of Formbi's plan, speculate that there may be another Thrawn clone out there.

Aotrs Commander
2011-10-14, 05:27 AM
In Vision of the Future, the "threat" mentioned by Fel, is portrayed as something that, even with all the power of the Republic, surviving Galactic Empire, and Empire of the Hand, united with Thrawn at their head, wouldn't have had a guarantee of defeating- and the Fel clones are his contingency plan for defeat- people to lead uprisings against it.

This was just before the Vong novels came out.

In Survivor's Quest, Luke and Mara, struck by the deviousness of Formbi's plan, speculate that there may be another Thrawn clone out there.

I know! Where did you think I'd based my idea on!

(In fact, long before Survivor's Quest came out, I'd been saying there was going to be more than one cloning tube. That book is, incidently - which I couldn't remember the name of for the unlife of me - where I can the EU more-or-less part ways...)



Edit: in my prior post, I meant the vong got massecred, not Thrawn and his army, as that wasn't clear from my bogged up wording.

Coidzor
2011-10-15, 03:33 PM
Edit: in my prior post, I meant the vong got massecred, not Thrawn and his army, as that wasn't clear from my bogged up wording.

Well, that's the most likely thing from your pro-Imperial stance and how generally unpopular the Vong seem to have been as villains.

I've yet to meet anyone who actually enjoyed them.

Gaius Marius
2011-10-18, 10:38 AM
Besides, why would anyone want a watered-down, not-very-evil Empire with nearly-Jedi when you can have the real thing with Sith?

Because the Empire has some good things and good people going for it, and it's nice to have an alternative to the horribly corrupted and cruel and inefficient government we sometime see?

Plus, the so-called Nearly Jedi, as you call them, fit a certain role the Jedi held that was simply anathema to their schlick. You have this militant, loyal and dedicated sect of Trained Force Users who can actually understand the rigors of war and can act as Guardian of the Galaxy.

The Jedi Monks can fall back on their Zen-mystical attitude, as counsel and sages. You now have them being uninvolved in politics whatsoever.

You want to add diversity of your factions for an interesting setting. Not the monochrome good vs evil. The Imperial Knight and the Fel Empire went a long way toward this, adding something that wasn't merely "In the middle"