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Anderlith
2011-10-10, 07:48 PM
I would like to create a weapon for use in Pathfinder & 3.5. It is like a nagamaki,
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/DMattB299/MountandBlade/nagamaki.png
& I would like to stat it out. I was thinking of making it an exotic two-handed weapon with 1d10 18-20/3 Crit & have it be a piercing & slashing weapon. I would like the playground's opinion's & expertise.

Drewski
2011-10-10, 08:08 PM
Check out Oriental Adventures, it already has them stated. You basically have it right only they give it more of a chance to damage, crits on a 20, and only slashing damage.

gkathellar
2011-10-10, 08:12 PM
Use the stats for the glaive/greatsword/whatever? Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean it has to be exotic and have weird above-average combat stats.

Seerow
2011-10-10, 08:24 PM
Use the stats for the glaive/greatsword/whatever? Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean it has to be exotic and have weird above-average combat stats.

Everyone knows japanese weapons are better than western weapons and katanas are super sharp and can cut through anything. What are you some sort of western supremist?

Anderlith
2011-10-10, 08:24 PM
Use the stats for the glaive/greatsword/whatever? Just because it's Japanese doesn't mean it has to be exotic and have weird above-average combat stats.

Well I want the weapon to have a europeon style double edged blade instead of the asian style blade (I prefer western swords to eastern). & I as the maneuvers you would perform in combat, as well as it being a uniquely styled weapon, I was more comfortable making it an exotic weapon. I could not find a european weapon that fit the weapon I wanted to create stats for so I found the nakamaki (with help from the arms & armor thread)



Everyone knows japanese weapons are better than western weapons and katanas are super sharp and can cut through anything. What are you some sort of western supremist?
Yes I'm a western supremist, because western blades are better. Katana's are only good for shaving

Seerow
2011-10-10, 08:31 PM
So how exactly do you imagine people fighting with this thing?

Because that picture gives me more or less nothing. It looks like a spear with a longer blade.

Kenneth
2011-10-10, 08:50 PM
at first i was like ' so basically a glaive? thne i saw you wanted doulbe edge ness. so i was thinking ' a big donkey spear with extra long blade?'

what exactly do you want from this weapon? because honestly in relaity all you are doing is literallymaking s pear with a longer blade.

Siosilvar
2011-10-10, 08:51 PM
So how exactly do you imagine people fighting with this thing?

Because that picture gives me more or less nothing. It looks like a spear with a longer blade.

The same way you fight with a glaive, guisarme, voulge, bardiche, or pollaxe, I'd imagine.

EDIT: It's not really different enough to warrant a complete new set of stats. Take a glaive or guisarme. Change the crit range from the axe-like 20/x3 to the sword-like 19-20/x2. Et voila, you've got a swordstaff. I've got an artifact swordstaff laying around somewhere, and those were the stats I used.

Wyntonian
2011-10-10, 09:03 PM
...How's it different from a halberd? I've trained with both halberd and Naginata, and they're pretty dang similar. Halberd stats are on the SRD.

brujon
2011-10-10, 10:15 PM
...How's it different from a halberd? I've trained with both halberd and Naginata, and they're pretty dang similar. Halberd stats are on the SRD.

Playground never ceases to amuse me. I believe amongst the collectiveness, we have people who did everything, lol.

Morph Bark
2011-10-11, 07:21 AM
Playground never ceases to amuse me. I believe amongst the collectiveness, we have people who did everything, lol.

Assemble all Giant in the Playground members. Perform fusion. Become Tier 1.

Spiryt
2011-10-11, 08:22 AM
The same way you fight with a glaive, guisarme, voulge, bardiche, or pollaxe, I'd imagine.

EDIT: It's not really different enough to warrant a complete new set of stats. Take a glaive or guisarme. Change the crit range from the axe-like 20/x3 to the sword-like 19-20/x2. Et voila, you've got a swordstaff. I've got an artifact swordstaff laying around somewhere, and those were the stats I used.

Remove the range I guess, this is not really long weapon.


...How's it different from a halberd? I've trained with both halberd and Naginata, and they're pretty dang similar. Halberd stats are on the SRD.

:smallconfused:

So this is similar to those , as an example?

http://dawneuzbrojenie.republika.pl/g16.jpg


As far as nagamaki, goes, it was pretty much japanese sword with longer handle - stats of a falchion or scythe, if one like's to have higher critical, are just sufficient - two handed sword but different than 'standard' and we're done.

Wyntonian
2011-10-11, 09:11 AM
Well, there's clearly some differences, but the actual effects of the weapon, which stats are supposed to represent, are fairly similar. Not the same, but close enough I'd judge them to be the same weapon for purposes as stats. You know, aside from all japanese weapons ever being masterwork.

gkathellar
2011-10-11, 09:19 AM
:smallconfused:

So this is similar to those , as an example?

http://dawneuzbrojenie.republika.pl/g16.jpg

Pffft come on Spiryt, we all know that there's no difference between a poleaxe and a shortsword on the end of a stick. :smallbiggrin:

Ashtagon
2011-10-11, 09:46 AM
Bastard sword. Add reach, remove one-hand option.

Optionally, make exotic and add can attack adjacent or with reach.

Cicciograna
2011-10-11, 10:01 AM
Assemble all Giant in the Playground members. Perform fusion. Become Tier 1.

Nobody of us can cast spells :smallfrown:. We would be lowish in Tier 4, tops.

Calmar
2011-10-11, 10:24 AM
Everyone knows japanese weapons are better than western weapons and katanas are super sharp and can cut through anything. What are you some sort of western supremist?

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their nagamakis of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the nagamakis first because their killing power was feared and respected.

:smallconfused:

I'd also refluff a polearm...

gkathellar
2011-10-11, 11:12 AM
Nobody of us can cast spells :smallfrown:. We would be lowish in Tier 4, tops.

Isn't there kind of 4th level infinite-loop exploiting build that kills Pun-Pun before he reaches 5th-level through the use of infinitely high knowledge checks? That would be the Playground Entity.

EDIT: Here it is! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer) And it's an Artificier, which I think the Homebrew forum has plenty of.

erikun
2011-10-11, 11:39 AM
A nagamaki is basically just a katana with a longer hilt. In fact, that is almost exactly what it is. It does change the function of the weapon a bit - you have more length to hold onto for more leverage, and thrusting is slightly better - but it is functionally similar. You can't quick-draw it like you would a katana, though, due to the extra length. (Note that the system doesn't care about that, as you can use the Quick Draw feat for a spiked chain as well as a dagger.)

I am not sure why you would give it such a high critical range. 18-20 is reserved for rapiers, falchions, and other supposedly "very sharp" weapons, and they all have only a x2 critical chance. This is especially strange next to the actual katana, which is only 1d10, 19-20/x2. (Although the katana is weakly represented.)

I might recommend 1d10, 19-20/x3 because that is a range that most weapons don't use. I would also recommend checkout out the weapons in Complete Adventurer; the Longaxe (can be used as a reach weapon with Power Attack) or the Longstaff (deny flanking if fighting defensively) might have a weapon ability appropriate for a nagamaki.

Spiryt
2011-10-11, 12:11 PM
Well, there's clearly some differences, but the actual effects of the weapon, which stats are supposed to represent, are fairly similar. Not the same, but close enough I'd judge them to be the same weapon for purposes as stats. .

Well, actual 'classic' halberd circa 7 feet including longish spike, with axe/cleaver blade with spine protruding into hook in behind, compared to naginata?

Can't really see it at all - if we they would be the same, even for the purpose of simple and largely nonsensical rules of D&D, then effectively all polearms could have the same stats...

Naginata is a glaive for quick and actually nice comparison.

There are going to be many pretty vital differences, AFAIK, but forthe purposes of D&D it fits just right.

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/b/0/0/83/2/AAAAC0rwExUAAAAAAIMmyQ.jpg?v=1257647574000

http://www.historicalinterpretations.net/images/Med2.jpg


Now, "naginata" is probably Hanwei or stuff, and glaive repro can not be very good at all too, it's just for show.


Bastard sword. Add reach, remove one-hand option.

Essentially, making it glaive with different crit. :smallwink:

It seems that lenght of originals varied quite a lot, from roughly the size of large longsword to pretty much polearm size, so making it 'reachy' or not quite reachy weapon for 3.5 standards, so it's up to preference indeed.


Pffft come on Spiryt, we all know that there's no difference between a poleaxe and a shortsword on the end of a stick.

Not true, poleaxe totally also does bludgeoning and piercing, duh. :smallbiggrin:

Drewski
2011-10-11, 03:22 PM
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their nagamakis of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the nagamakis first because their killing power was feared and respected.

:smallconfused:


I'm just gonna point out that in his Sig he says his sarcasm is in blue, and that you copied that word for word from something Swift Mongoose posted a in another thread.

Siosilvar
2011-10-11, 03:26 PM
I'm just gonna point out that in his Sig he says his sarcasm is in blue, and that you copied that word for word from something Swift Mongoose posted a in another thread.

Katanas are Underpowered in d20, full text (censored a bit):

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Drewski
2011-10-11, 03:36 PM
After research I'd like to say I'm an idiot. :smallredface:

Worlok
2011-10-11, 03:38 PM
Did they ever actually find out whether or not the "underpowered in d20"-guy was for real? :smallbiggrin:

Anderlith
2011-10-11, 04:19 PM
Nobody of us can cast spells :smallfrown:. We would be lowish in Tier 4, tops.

Maybe you can't...:smallamused:

Okay, what if I keep it as an Exotic two handed weapon that does. 1d10 18-20/x3 & add the option to take a -4 on the attack to use the weapon as though it had reach?

Drewski
2011-10-11, 04:54 PM
Maybe you can't...:smallamused:

Okay, what if I keep it as an Exotic two handed weapon that does. 1d10 18-20/x3 & add the option to take a -4 on the attack to use the weapon as though it had reach?

Once more it's allready been stated. 2d4, x3, Slashing. Nothing special.

Seerow
2011-10-11, 04:58 PM
Once more it's allready been stated. 2d4, x3, Slashing. Nothing special.

As a martial weapon, not exotic. Just to be clear.

Morph Bark
2011-10-11, 05:02 PM
Nobody of us can cast spells :smallfrown:. We would be lowish in Tier 4, tops.

With so many together, we'd be at least Tier 3, just not high-level. Maybe 6 or so.

Besides, it presumes we can perform fusion at all, which would make us Tier 2 already. :smallamused:

FireJustice
2011-10-11, 05:26 PM
if you reaaly want it to be exotic.

make it
2d6 20/x3

or 2d4 19-20/x3

or 2d4 20/x3 can make a extra attack with -2 penalty in all attacks with its haft.

Anderlith
2011-10-11, 07:53 PM
if you reaaly want it to be exotic.

make it
2d6 20/x3

or 2d4 19-20/x3

or 2d4 20/x3 can make a extra attack with -2 penalty in all attacks with its haft.

Those are on par or worse than other martial weapons.

FireJustice
2011-10-11, 08:49 PM
Nope.

Just check.

Exotic weapons with 2d6 20/x3
Great Spear, Great Poleaxe, Dwarven Warpike.
All reach weapons. But can't strike melee.
Of course, you could give some shared focus too. So my bad there.
But still in pair at least in damage.

Exotic Weapons with 2d4 19-20/x3
Hell, 19-20 and x3 multiplier doesnt evn exist normally.

its the equivalent of getting a 2d4 20/x3 melee weapon and improved critical.
the better, is that the first would stack with keen, the second not.
So you could have your 18-20/x3 weapon with a feat and keen.

the spiked chain, the exotic weapon to rule them all. 2d4 20/x2. sure has a lot of special shenanigans,that you trade for a higher threat and crit multiplier.


Exotic Weapons with 2d4 20/x3 and you can make an extra attack.
well. I can think of braidblade brokeness or Eagle claw's, that requires an extra feat. Both aren't two handed, as a two handeed weapon is a lot better with 1,5x Str to damage and Power Attack 1:2 basic ratio

Wyntonian
2011-10-11, 09:09 PM
Hey, just wanted to issue a bit of a retraction. I mixed up the d&d concepts of glaive and halberd. It was a glaive that I trained with, not a halberd. We called it different things in training, but in D&D terms, that's it. Y'all are right. My bad.

Spiryt
2011-10-12, 05:09 AM
Hey, just wanted to issue a bit of a retraction. I mixed up the d&d concepts of glaive and halberd. It was a glaive that I trained with, not a halberd. We called it different things in training, but in D&D terms, that's it. Y'all are right. My bad.

Let your glaive shine bright in the sun, I guess.


Those are on par or worse than other martial weapons.

Let me say, that the whole exotic/martial/simple idea for weapons is unfortunately lame creation from the day one by WotC, and that causes so much problems...




Okay, what if I keep it as an Exotic two handed weapon that does. 1d10 18-20/x3 & add the option to take a -4 on the attack to use the weapon as though it had reach?


I'm pretty sure that this, on the other hand is slightly better than most other exotic weapons....

What about 1d8 19-20/x2 and that - 4 on the attack to use reach?

That would obviously be Martial Weapon, without need to spend feat?

Dunno how balanced, compared to guisarme f.e., maybe somebody will take a look.

Partysan
2011-10-12, 05:24 AM
I think he is looking for a weapon which never really existed but has its place in fantasy, a weapon we call Schwertlanze (swordlance) in German and that can also be found in LARP weaponry.
http://www.anderswelt.de/bilder/extragross/as139.jpg

Spiryt
2011-10-12, 05:44 AM
I think he is looking for a weapon which never really existed but has its place in fantasy, a weapon we call Schwertlanze (swordlance) in German and that can also be found in LARP weaponry.
http://www.anderswelt.de/bilder/extragross/as139.jpg

Eh, stuff that can be summed up as "cut/thrust blade on a short stick" can be found all over the world, like mentioned, just sometimes traces are very vague, and sometimes actual artifact are well preserved (nagamaki).

Sometimes blades are pretty much swordlike indeed, sometimes not.


Footman on the left, obviously.

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf10/otm10ra&b.gif

gkathellar
2011-10-12, 10:47 AM
Let me say, that the whole exotic/martial/simple idea for weapons is unfortunately lame creation from the day one by WotC, and that causes so much problems...

Well, at least it's internally consistent. Oh, wait. monk special weapons are simultaneously exotic and below average. I guess not.


Did they ever actually find out whether or not the "underpowered in d20"-guy was for real? :smallbiggrin:

/tg copypasta is never "real" or "fake" it exists in a state of quantum uncertainty, where the anonymity of the poster ensures that everything is simultaneously serious and for the lulz. It's like a wave-function that steals your credit card information if you tell it to collapse.

erikun
2011-10-12, 02:53 PM
Footman on the left, obviously.

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf10/otm10ra&b.gif
That looks a bit like a War Scythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe) to me.

Spiryt
2011-10-12, 03:04 PM
That looks a bit like a War Scythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe) to me.

Eh, not really, why?

If anything it just looks like a glaive on a very short stick, but generally blade is also larger than in polearm, so proportion is even more different.

War Scythe is scythe mounted for fighting, so it's usually slightly curved, and obviously with edge on the concave, like most farming scythes.

As well with something a bit like a tang, as far as I understand - at least polish rebels seemingly were just flattening scythe's normal mounting to form simple tang - mounting it on the haft and then reinforcing probably.

Lastly, scythe as a tool haven't really get popular in Europe until post Medieval times.

So all in all, it has nothing really to do with war scythe.

This is huge offtop anyway. :smallwink: