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Iorthol
2011-10-12, 01:55 AM
Howdy there, I've been running a pirate hunting game and I had the players encounter a partially sunken ship in a cliffside cave.
They've been fighting pirates with necrotic cysts, and skulking cysts, all out of the Libris Mortis.
Soooo because there's not a crazy ton of things you can do with cysts when you consider the fact that my game has no spellcasting (There's magic everywhere and spell-like abilities and supernatural and stuff).
So! I decided to make the next step up from a skulking cyst, after it anchors to a wall and begins to grow.

I don't know what to assign as this guy's challenge rating, can I get some suggestions and explanations please~?
(Comments and suggestions about the creation itself are also encouraged)

Necrotic Pod
Large Undead
Hit Dice: 8d12 (52) (96 if you like to live it to the max)
Initiative: -5
Speed: Immobile
Armor Class: 15 (10+ (-1 size) + (-5 dex) + (11 natural), Touch 4, Flat 15
Base/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Tentacle +8 melee (1d8+5 plus grapple) (15ft reach)
Full Attack: 3 Tentacles +8 melee (1d8+5 plus grapple) (15ft reach)
Face/Reach: 10ft(wide)/10ft
Special Attacks: Swallow Whole, Improved Grab, Spell-like abilities.
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60ft, inescapable craving, resistance to fire 5, undead traits, +4 turn resistance, fast healing 2.
Saves: Fort +2, Ref -5, Will +7
Abilitles: Str 20, Dex 1, Con -, Int -, Wis 12, Cha 12.
Skills: --
Feats: --
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or Pod Chamber (3-10)
Challenge Rating: (Current suggestion 4)
Treasure: Double
Alignment: Always neutral evil.
Advancement: --
Level Adjustment: --

This black ominous blob looms in dark corridors, dank chambers, and in the cozy family rooms of necromancers. It resembles a large pustulant boil attached with veiny roots to walls or trees or even the ground, that opens from a slit in the front to capture prey and launch its very lone sinewy tentacles.

A Necrotic Pod is the result of a Skulking Cyst attaching to a wall or ceiling or object and growing to massive size by consuming bodily fluids. This transformation strips any intelligent thought from the Skulking Cyst until it is nothing more than an ever-thirsting drainage pod.

Combat
A Necrotic Pod instinctively either lashes out with its tentacles, attempting to grab and consume its prey, or it uses its abilities to spur the growth of nearby cysts. It is mindless, and thus totally devoid of strategy. When it senses prey, it uses chill touch to make it even easier to grapple its weary foes.
Improved Grab: With each of its attacks, a Necrotic Pod attempts to grasp ahold of its prey.
Swallow Whole: If a Necrotic Pod starts it's turn grappling a creature, make an opposed grapple check, if the check is successful, the creature is pulled into the main membranous pod of the main body. While inside, the creature is considered to be touched once per turn for the purpose of Chill Touch, as well as being drained of blood for 1d6 con (Fort negate, DC 14)(DC is con based) and takes 1d10 desiccation damage. It's common for the Necrotic Pod to use the spell Necrotic Cyst, or Necrotic Bloat, to creatures inside of it. To escape from being swallowed, a creature must either make a successful grapple to climb out, or cut its way out, dealing 20 slashing damage to the insides of the pod (AC: 15). If The escape injury seals up immediately, so each creature trapped inside has to cut its own way out.
Spell-like abilities: At will-- Chill Touch; 3/day-- Necrotic Cyst; 1/day-- Necrotic Bloat. Caster Level is 5th, DC is charisma based.

Debihuman
2011-10-12, 05:33 AM
If it has no Int, why does it have skills?

How much damage can the tentacles take before they become useless? If you are going with 52 points, the tentacles should have 8 hit points each. If you want to maximize the hit points, the tentacles would have 16 hit points each.

The problem with immobile monsters is that is usually easy to keep out of range.

Also, you forgot to add -1 size modifier to attacks.
Attack: Tentacle +8 melee (1d8+5 plus grapple)
Full Attack: 3 Tentacles +8 melee (1d8+5 plus grapple)

I wonder if it should have extra reach with its tentacles. You seem to want it to be able to "launch its tentacles." That suggests that Space/Reach (Face/Reach is 3.0) should be 10 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with tentacle). Large creatures normally have a space of 10 and reach 10.

You need to change this: "While inside, the creature is affected by Chill Touch once per turn (If there are charges left from the initial use of the ability), as well as being drained of blood for 1d6 con (Fort negate) and takes 1d10 desiccation damage.."

First, chill touch is an "at will" ability and has no charges. You should probably mention the DC of the chill touch as well since it is also a Fort save to avoid the 1 point of Str damage. Chill touch DC is 12 because all spell-like abilities have DC of 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier. That information is missing from your text.

Second the Fort save for the blood draining needs a DC as well since it can be negated. This should probably be DC 14 if it is Con based (Con -- has a +0 modifier). 10 + 1/2 Creature's HD + ability modifier.

Do not base it off the creature's Str because the DC would probably be too high for its CR. Upping the CR wouldn't help because the PCs would then be too powerful for it.

It looks to be CR 4 with normal hp or CR 5 with maximized hp.

Is necrotic blast suppose to be once a day?

Debby

Iorthol
2011-10-12, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the edits~ I forgot no int gets no skills as well as no feats.

The comment in swallow whole about chill touch charges is because, while the spell-like ability is at will, it can still only work for 5 attacks, or 5 turns of holding an opponent inside, before it has to activate the ability again.

Also, it's not using necrotic burst or blast, it's using necrotic bloat, which is the 3rd level spell out of libris mortis that just causes target cysts to swell/spread and do lvld6 damage.
Though after having playtested it against the players, I agree with you that each one should only have it 1/day.

Also, unless it's common for limbs to be able to be destroyed, the tentacles can't separately be destroyed, but they can be attacked as though small sized creatures with an AC of 17.

Iorthol
2011-10-12, 07:47 PM
I'm still on the lookout for suggestions about the challenge rating for these guys, and explanations too.

Suggestions and comments are also still welcome~

Debihuman
2011-10-13, 09:26 AM
Also, unless it's common for limbs to be able to be destroyed, the tentacles can't separately be destroyed, but they can be attacked as though small sized creatures with an AC of 17.


See text from Giant Octopus: "A giant octopus’s tentacles have 10 hit points each. If a giant octopus is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a giant octopus’s tentacles deals 5 points of damage to the creature. A giant octopus usually withdraws from combat if it loses four tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days."

As for Estimating CR, I generally rely on this:

Vorpal Tribble’s CR estimator

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.

Note: the rough CR is 10+1+3+3+0 =17/3=5 BUT it also is immobile and has Initiative -5 so I subtracted 1 for the CR for that.

Not all qualities are "deemed worthy." I didn't count blindsight 60 ft. and inescapable craving. The other problem that you didn't consider is that its spell-like abilities can be avoided with a careful use of protection from evil spell or a similar spell. Necrotic cyst is a touch spell, making it easy for PCs to stay out of range. Without a necrotic cyst, necrotic bloat is useless. Hence, CR 4 makes the most sense. CR 5 just gives the PCs more advantages.

Also, treasure is off. A skulking cyst would have standard treasure, but these would have less since they cannot store it or keep it from anyone. They should have no treasure or incidental treasure treat as 1/4 Standard. This would be treasure from previous victims that happens to be scattered before some other creature takes it.

One last thing: time in 3.5 is in rounds never turns. See swallow whole text here:


If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + ½ its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

The fact that it can use its chill touch on a victim inside should not prevent it from using it every round. You never state anywhere that there is a 5 round limit, which should be part of the text in the spell-like ability section. I think it hamstrings this creature too much to put that limit in.

Debby

DracoDei
2011-10-13, 09:45 AM
Check the "Notable threads" post at the top of the homebrew forums, there you will find a link to the "Guide to Homebrewing". With that thread you will find formatting help. I would link you directly or even give you the re-formatted monster entry to copy but "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life-time."

The reflex save could perhaps be handled better. Dex 1 is a good start, but you didn't add in the +2 it technically gets for its eight hit-dice. Surprised my loyal nemesis Debihuman didn't point this out to you. Maybe make it a special quality that causes reflex saves to automatically fail...

As for its immobility, that can make for an effective monster, but only if it has at least one of the following going for it:

It has a ranged attack (15' range is nice, but doesn't count for these purposes)
camouflage (it doesn't)
A lure ability (inescapable craving might count but you never said what it did)
If it is placed in such a as to act as a trap or area-denial weapon: at the bottom of a pit-trap, inside the gate-house of a small keep to augment the arrow slits and murder-holes, etc. Granted, the fire resistance and fast healing means it needs to get hit HARD to knock it out, rather than plinking away at it with a cheap ranged weapon (so not magical, and not a strength-bow) if it is going to be disposed of in anything like a timely fashion.
Against foes that lack any ability to make ranged attacks (not actually that uncommon in D&D, even if a 1st level commoner, let alone an adventurer, can pick up a rock and throw it), or is too fool-hearty/uncreative/reckless to fall back on ape-level tactics... a depressing number of players have their characters fall into this catagory, regardless of being higher than 1st level (and thus seasoned combatants), and/or 11+ in both intelligence and wisdom.

Debihuman
2011-10-13, 11:44 AM
"Loyal nemesis" indeed. I am not sure if I should be flattered or appalled. But in any case, the Reflex save is -3 not -5 as Dracodei points out.

In going over your creature, I've also noted that it is missing Blood drain as a special attack. Desiccation damage should affect only living creatures and creatures with the Plant type and Water subtype should take additional damage. Taking into account the large amount of damage this creature can do and factoring in the additional blood drain attack: CR 5 is probably more appropriate than CR 4. However, without an actual playtest, this is only a good guess.

Here is a more complete entry with proofreading, editing and a few other flourishes thrown in for good measure. This creature relies heavily on material from Libris Mortis.


Necrotic Pod
Large Undead
Hit Dice: 8d12 (52 hp)
Initiative: -5
Speed: 0 ft. (Immobile)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, -5 Dex, 11 natural), Touch 4, Flat 15
Base/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Tentacle +8 melee (1d8+5 plus grapple)
Full Attack: 3 Tentacles +8 melee (1d8+5 plus grapple)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with tentacle)
Special Attacks: Blood drain, improved grab, spell-like abilities, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft, fast healing 2, inescapable craving, resistance to fire 5, turn resistance +4, undead traits
Saves: Fort +2, Ref -3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 1, Con -, Int -, Wis 12, Cha 12.
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or Pod Chamber (3-10)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: 1/4 Standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil.
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

This black ominous blob looms in dark corridors, dank chambers, and in the cozy family rooms of necromancers. It resembles a large pustulant boil attached with vein-like roots to walls or trees or even the ground that opens from a slit in the front to capture prey and to launch its long, sinewy tentacles.

A necrotic pod is the result of a skulking cyst (See Libris Mortis) attaching to a wall or ceiling or object and growing to massive size by consuming bodily fluids. This transformation strips any intelligent thought from the skulking cyst until it is nothing more than an ever-thirsting drainage pod.

A necrotic pod's tentacles have 8 hit points each. If a necrotic pod is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of its tentacles deals 4 points of damage to the creature. The creature regrows severed limbs within 24 hours.


Combat

A necrotic pod instinctively lashes out with its tentacles, attempting to grab and consume its prey, or it uses its abilities to spur the growth of nearby cysts. It is mindless, and thus devoid of strategy. When it senses prey, it uses chill touch to make it even easier to grapple its weary foes.

Blood Drain (Su): A necrotic pod drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage and 1d10 points of desiccation damage to living opponents (Plants and creatures with the Water subtype take 1d12 points of desiccation damage) each round it is in contact with them. A successful Fortitude save (DC 14) negates the Constitution damage but not the desiccation damage. The save is constitution based.

Improved Grab (Ex): With each of its attacks, a necrotic pod attempts to grasp an opponent once per round for the purpose of chill touch. If it succeeds, the victim must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 12) or take 1 point of Strength damage. The save is charisma based. The victim is also drained of blood for 1d6 points Constitution damage (DC 14, Fort negate) and takes 1d10 points of desiccation damage (Plants and creatures with the Water subtype take 1d12 points of damage). The save is constitution based.

Swallow Whole (Ex): If a necrotic pod starts its turn grappling a creature, make an opposed grapple check. If the check is successful, the creature is pulled into the main membranous pod of the main body. While inside, the creature is considered to be touched once per round for the purpose of chill touch. The victim must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 12) or take 1 point of Strength damage. The save is charisma based. The victim is also drained of blood for 1d6 points of Constitution damage (DC 14, Fort negate) and takes 1d10 points of desiccation damage (Plants and creatures with the Water subtype take 1d12 points of desiccation damage). The save is constitution based.

It is also common for the necrotic pod to use necrotic cyst or necrotic bloat on creatures inside of it.

A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon, dealing 20 points or damage to the necrotic pod or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a necrotic pod is 15. Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Large necrotic pod can hold 2 Medium, 4 Small, 8 Tiny, 16 Diminutive or 32 Fine or smaller opponents.

Inescapable Craving (Su): A necrotic pod has in inescapable craving for blood, which it satisfies using its blood drain ability.

Spell-like abilities: At will—chill touch (DC 12); 3/day—necrotic cyst (DC 13); 1/day—necrotic bloat. Caster Level is 5th, DC is charisma based.

I hope this is useful.

Debby

Edit: fixed saves for chill touch, which is a spell-like ability (DC is 10 + level of spell + charisma modifier) .

Iorthol
2011-10-13, 12:16 PM
This is all very helpful~

Also, one last note on the CR for this monster.

The party fought 8 of these things in a 40x50 room, and had to drop in (take a flight of stairs) to get into the room. It's a pretty ideal situation for the monsters.
I saw a note in the DMG about difficult circumstances affecting CR/EL. In your helpful opinions, would that kind of circumstance give the EL the suggested +2 or a different value?

Also, for this specific game, there's no access to spellcasting (Though spell-like and supernatural abilities are still available) so protection effects aren't really available at their level.

As another note, the -5 was because I thought immobile creatures got an additional -2 on reflex saves. Is this the case? Or can they not make reflex saves at all? If not, I like Draco's suggestion for an ability that prevents them from saving.

Debi, thanks for all the formatting help~ I really appreciate it~ And for the hints on assessing challenge rating~

Debihuman
2011-10-13, 01:02 PM
I forgot to add the information about severing its tentacles. That information is in the stat block now. This was my interpretation so feel free to tweak it as you see fit.

Having a Speed of 0 ft. has no effect on Reflex saves. The creature is merely rooted to one spot and cannot move. It is neither Unconscious nor Helpless. It makes normal Reflex saves.


The comment in swallow whole about chill touchcharges is because, while the spell-like ability is at will, it can still only work]for 5 attacks, or 5 turns of holding an opponent inside, before it has to activate the ability again.

Except, it can do that at will. I am not sure if you understand the difference between an At Will Spell-like ability and a spell. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. It does not have to "activate" it again like the spell.

Debby

DracoDei
2011-10-13, 01:47 PM
"Loyal nemesis" indeed. I am not sure if I should be flattered or appalled. But in any case, the Reflex save is -3 not -5 as Dracodei points out.
If you meant my terminology, then you should be flattered. Details below:
I simply meant that (at least at first glance?) it seems like we have very opposite approaches to homebrewing. I make stuff that twists the accepted standards into pretzels, and often only make it explicit that I did so in later revisions (not rarely because you helpfully remind me). You on the other hand make sure all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed. I don't know what process you use for your own homebrew, but I at least WAS thinking of your mechanics being more standard. Upon checking your extended signature I see I may be mistake (the Weeping Angel for instance). In any case, I like to think we compliment and/or improve eachother.


If you meant the fact that you missed the reflex save problem, then: everyone has an off day.

Debihuman
2011-10-13, 08:48 PM
If you meant my terminology, then you should be flattered.

If you meant the fact that you missed the reflex save problem, then: everyone has an off day.

I thank you for the compliment. A second pair of eyes (sometimes third and more) are good for critiquing. I have had plenty of "off days" in regards to monster creation so I am always grateful when someone else catches something I missed.

However, I don't think our approaches are necessarily opposites. I have no problem In with twisting the rules to make things better. However, I tend to use monster critique as a teachable moment. Not everyone has a good grasp of the rules and so I tend to explain things as much as possible. Hence, I try to be a stickler for the rules (despite my own mistakes). This is why I want people to state why and when they deviate from the rules. It helps those who are new at this.

BTW,I love your fearless approach to the things you create and that you see the rules as something that should be challenged. If everyone did things my way, the game would be much duller.


I saw a note in the DMG about difficult circumstances affecting CR/EL. In your helpful opinions, would that kind of circumstance give the EL the suggested +2 or a different value?

First, I'm glad to help. Second, since your personal game deviates from the standard (no spells) assessing CR is difficult.

Circumstances that affect CR can be environmental (mud, rain, hurricanes, snow, lava, etc.) or the addition of extra monsters (minions, allies, hired help), etc. that aren't figured in a monster's CR. HOWEVER, if the original monster has a summon monster spell and summons a monster, the summoned monster does not affect CR of the original monster. Summoned monsters are considered to be factored in.

Also, if you give your monsters access to magic items and magic weapons not listed in the stat block can be a factor. Templates often add to CR. You can mix things up by creating variant creatures--adding wings to creatures that don't normally fly gives you options as does increasing a creature's size.

Debby