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View Full Version : Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!



Paulcynic
2011-10-12, 02:06 AM
Let's jump right into this premise: Our gaming group uses JaronK's Tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=5dfp7uai75l86ecsm3krr1l6r5&topic=5293) when drawing up characters, including his suggestions for closing the power and versatility gap between Tiers. I'll describe our creation rules shortly, but the relevant bit is that we allow characters to Gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). Tier 6 is the designation for the commoner classes, found here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/nPCClasses.html), and although many class-role bases are covered, I feel they amount to 'half' classes. I'd like to see more, unique, interesting, creative, useful, funny, whateva' people come up with T6's, meant for Gestalting.

So! Invent a T6. Please feel free to hack up existing classes into their T6 equivalent. For example, what would a T6 Barbarian look like? :D This is meant to be a fun exercise, but PEACH, PEACH, PEACH!

Our Character Creation rules are as follows:

Classes are organized by Tier. The designated Tier affects character creation and advancement.

1. Select a Class:
Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard
Tier 2: Sorcerer
Tier 3: Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Ninja, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, Summoner
Tier 4: Alchemist, Barbarian, Cavalier, Rogue, Samurai
Tier 5: Adept, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk
Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior

2. Stat-points by Tier:
Tier 1: 20 Points
Tier 2: 24 Points
Tier 3: 28 Points
Tier 4: 32 Points
Tier 5: 36 Points
Tier 6: 40 Points

3. Rate of Advancement by Tier:
Tier 1 advances at a Slow Rate, Tiers 2 and 3 advance at a Medium rate, Tiers 4 and 5 advance at a Fast rate. If characters are created at 6th level, this means that they begin with enough experience to have earned level 6 at a Medium rate (23,000 exp). If your rate is 'Slow' this would place you at level 5; if your rate is 'Fast,' this places you at level 7. Use the following chart to determine actual starting level:

http://i56.tinypic.com/25pn785.jpg

4. Gestalt Options by Tier:
Gestalting changes the character's actual Tier Designation, which will reduce the number of Stat-points, and Rate of Advancement. Players are free to Optimize within a class by selecting archetypes or advanced feats, etc. to their heart's content without worrying about a Tier shift. Equally important, players are free to choose inferior class-options without benefit of a shift down the Tier scale.

* Tier 1 may never Gestalt.
* Tier 2 may Gestalt with a Tier 6 to become Tier 1.
* Tier 3 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T2, or with a T5 to become T1.
* Tier 4 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T3, with a T5 to become T2, or with a T4 to become T1.
* Tier 5 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T4, with a T5 to become T3, with a T4 to become T2, or with a T3 to become T1.

Gestalting changes the character's actual Tier Designation, which will reduce the number of Stat-points, and Rate of Advancement.

A Few Guidelines:
1. Few, but thematically appropriate Skills.
2. If the T6 Class can cast spells, it should not earn more than 4 Skill-points per level.
3. Typically T6 should have all Bad saves, generally no more than one Good save. If it has more than one Good save, a sacrifice should be made elsewhere.
4. Special Abilities should probably be limited down thematically appropriate lines.
5. Spell lists probably shouldn't be comprehensive, and shouldn't go above 5th level spells. Typically, the number of available slots should start in deficit (as in 0 per day, allowing only toons with high main-caster stats to cast at these levels).
6. Inventive, useful, interesting, funny, or just plane awesome (as you see it) :)

Caveat: Creations will feel less than T5 and so naturally we'll call them T6, but they may also have more versatility or power than the other T6's, and so they're not exactly T6 :) At this stage, its clear that our instincts are to round them up a Tier, or down. Please do as you wish in this case, as these aren't hard and fast rules, and for funsies they'll be T6-ish.

--PC

Paulcynic
2011-10-12, 02:16 AM
T6 Ranger:

Ranger's class skills are Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

http://i55.tinypic.com/eqavt3.jpg

Armor and Weapon Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

All listed Special Abilities are as described under the Ranger Class

Spells: T6 Ranger Spells are as described under the Ranger Class, save his spell list is gimped:

Level 1 Spells: Alarm, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Jump, Longstrider, Pass without Trace
Level 2 Spells: Cure Light Wounds, Snare
Level 3 Spells: Diminish Plants, Tree Shape (lul.. sorries)
Level 4 Spells: Commune with Nature

Morph Bark
2011-10-12, 02:46 AM
Your ranger gets spells from the normal ranger list. That automatically means he's not Tier 6. The Tier 6 classes either have no class features at all, or have class features that are only useful in very rare cases at higher levels (CW Samurai vs fear-immune creatures).

I've made some Commoner PrCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9183867&postcount=75), but those are decidedly non-Tier 6 (though definitely not higher than Tier 4 either).

Paulcynic
2011-10-12, 02:59 AM
Ah, was comparing the Ranger's spell list to the Adepts, which includes good spells up to 5th level, such as Baleful Polymorph (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/balefulPolymorph.html#_baleful-polymorph). The Ranger's spells per day are gimped in the T6 version, and if you look at the entire class, he's basically a light spell caster and tracker. All bad saves, 3/4 BaB, and a massively gimped pet (no need to adjust that from the standard Ranger :P).

As a T6 Gestalt option, he'd make a Monk or Fighter basically a T4, adding a bit of versatility. There again, how many Fighters are gonna pump their Wisdom to 13 to cast that 1st level spell before level 7? You're picking this up mostly for tracking and favored terrain :) We could do something similar with a T6 rogue version, introducing his Trap specials as the main reason to take it.

Either way, ty for the PrC link :)

--PC

Mystral
2011-10-12, 04:59 AM
The Templeguard (Paladin Light)

HD: d10
Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot
Skill Points: 2+Int

BAB: Medium
Good Saves: Fort

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Templeguard ist proficient with all simple weapons and the favorite weapon of his diety. He is proficient with light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields).

Guardian: All Class Features, with exception of favored weapon focus, only work in in the vicinity of the Templeguards Temple. This is an area of 1 square mile per class level, which has to contain one or more holy places of the temple guards patron diety. (A holy place is any place under the effect of a hallow or unhallow spell cast by a cleric of the patron diety.) Should the temple lose his blessing, or if the temple guard voluntarily choses so, he loses the area. After one month without an area to guard, he can obtain a new area when praying at a different holy place for one week.
The templeguardian must be of an alignment not further then one step away from his patron dieties and can't be true neutral unless his patron diety is so, too. (Like a cleric) Should the guardian ever obtain an unallowed alignment, fail to protect his temple or the faithfull and priests in it to the best of his abilities or grossly violate the dieties dogma, he loses his class features, except favored weapon focus and weapon and armor proficiencies, until he is the subject of an attonement spell.

Guardians Valor: A Temple Guardian of level 1 gains a +1 morale bonus on weapon damage and saving throws against fear. This bonus rises to +2 at class level 5, and by 1 after every 5 levels after this (+3 at level 10, +4 at level 15, +5 at level 20).

Favored Weapon Focus: At level 4, the temple guardian gains weapon focus for the favored weapon of his diety as a bonus feat. Should he already have this feat, he gains a bonus feat of his choice for which he meets the prerequisites.

Divine Weapon: At level 6, the templeguard can infuse his weapon with the power of his diety as a standart action. Once per day, for 1 round per class level, the weapon obtains the holy, unholy, axciomatic or anarchic quality, if the enchantment matches the dieties alignment. (A chaotic good dieties temple guard would create a holy or anarchic weapon, a lawfull neutral would create an axciomatic weapon). If the patron diety is true neutral, the temple guard choses one of the enchantments when gaining this class feature. He can't change it afterwards.

Shield Other: At level 8, once per day, the templeguard can cast shield other as a spelllike ability, with a caster level of half his class level, rounded down.

Smite Infidel: At Level 12, the temple guard gains a smite attack, like the paladins. It is effective against the same alignment as his divine weapon. (if he creates a holy weapon, he smites evil, if he creates an unholy weapon, he smites good, and so on). He can use the smite attack once per day, twice at character level 16, thrice at character level 20.

Zeta Kai
2011-10-12, 07:55 AM
Not to be rude (really, I'm serious), but why would anyone want to do this? Why make classes that are patently awful? It seems like a waste of time & effort to create a class that nobody would want to play, & no DM would want to use for an NPC.

Cespenar
2011-10-12, 08:09 AM
Not to be rude (really, I'm serious), but why would anyone want to do this? Why make classes that are patently awful? It seems like a waste of time & effort to create a class that nobody would want to play, & no DM would want to use for an NPC.

First paragraph of the first post explains it. He intends to gestalt them.

Mystral
2011-10-12, 08:10 AM
Well, you could emulate the dualclassing of 4th edition this way by taking two tier 6 classes as a gestalt build.

Veklim
2011-10-12, 08:23 AM
It's explained in the opening post dude, the group this is for uses a gestalt creation system, and the creation of tier 6s like these is meant to aid a player in adding more flavour and versatility without too much more power.

On that line I'd suggest some sort of 'Red Tape Official'. They'd have poor BAB, good will, all the charisma skills, sense motive, concentration, a smattering of knowledges (including nob&roy, beurocracy and/or law), profession and appraise, with 6 sp/lvl.
Give them bardic knowledge at 1st, simple weapons and light armour only, and a few interaction based boni. Then a 1/day ability called 'Friends in high places' at 3rd which allows them to automatically succeed one diplomacy check a day by name dropping (additional uses every 5 levels). They would then gain a skill trick or skill focus for free at 5th, and every 3 levels thereafter.

gkathellar
2011-10-12, 08:46 AM
Ah, was comparing the Ranger's spell list to the Adepts, which includes good spells up to 5th level, such as Baleful Polymorph (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/balefulPolymorph.html#_baleful-polymorph).

Adepts are easily T4-5, guy. They definitely hit T4 with minor optimization. I know JaronK has them listed at 6, but that's just because he grouped all of the NPC classes together down there. Any form of spellcasting is really pretty amazing, and Adepts have some excellent spells to throw around.

Your ranger is likewise T5, and with SotAO it hits T4.

Amechra
2011-10-12, 10:02 AM
Hmm...

Your Gestahlt rules. Consider them stolen for a project I may or may not work on...

Morph Bark
2011-10-12, 11:55 AM
Adepts are easily T4-5, guy. They definitely hit T4 with minor optimization. I know JaronK has them listed at 6, but that's just because he grouped all of the NPC classes together down there. Any form of spellcasting is really pretty amazing, and Adepts have some excellent spells to throw around.

Your ranger is likewise T5, and with SotAO it hits T4.

Adept is listed as Tier 4. Expert is Tier 5.

Pyromancer999
2011-10-12, 01:08 PM
This makes me think....what tier would bloodlines be? That is, if only one was taken and treated as a class. Because those provide a tad more benefit than these, so I think.

gkathellar
2011-10-12, 01:21 PM
Adept is listed as Tier 4. Expert is Tier 5.

Oops. Just realized you're right, and that's from an older version of the list.

Ziegander
2011-10-12, 02:14 PM
This makes me think....what tier would bloodlines be? That is, if only one was taken and treated as a class. Because those provide a tad more benefit than these, so I think.

Bloodlines provide no hit points, no base attack bonus, no saving throw bonus, no skill points or class skills, and hardly anything else. If anything, taken as a class, a major Bloodline would be even weaker than a Commoner.

erikun
2011-10-12, 02:46 PM
T6 Spellcaster? Sure, let's give this a try.

Rainbow Hypnotist
{TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Color Spray|2|-|-|-
2|+1|+0|+0|+3||3|-|-|-
3|+1|+1|+1|+3||3|-|-|-
4|+2|+1|+1|+4|Hypnotic Pattern|3|0|-|-
5|+2|+1|+1|+4||3|1|-|-
6|+3|+2|+2|+5||4|2|-|-
7|+3|+2|+2|+5||4|2|-|-
8|+4|+2|+2|+6||5|3|-|-
9|+4|+3|+3|+6|Rainbow Pattern|5|3|0|-
10|+5|+3|+3|+7||5|3|1|-
11|+5|+3|+3|+7||5|4|2|-
12|+6|+4|+4|+8||5|4|2|-
13|+6|+4|+4|+8||6|4|3|-
14|+7|+4|+4|+9|Scintillating Pattern|6|4|3|0
15|+7|+5|+5|+9||6|4|3|1
16|+8|+5|+5|+10||6|5|3|2
17|+8|+5|+5|+10||6|5|4|2
18|+9|+6|+6|+11||6|5|4|3
19|+9|+6|+6|+11||6|5|4|3
20|+10|+6|+6|+12||6|5|4|3
[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 4 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Concentration, Craft (any, taken seperately), Disguise, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Perform, Search, Spellcraft

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rainbow Hypnotists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Rainbow Hypnotists’s gestures, which can cause their spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: A Rainbow Hypnotist is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

At 1st level, the Rainbow Hypnotist knows Color Spray as a first-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 4th level, they know Hypnotic Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 9th level, they know Rainbow Pattern as a third-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 14th level, they know Scintillating Pattern as a fourth-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

Rainbow Hypnotists are arcane spellcasters, and suffer Arcane Spell Failure when attempting to cast in armor.

To cast a spell, a Rainbow Hypnotist must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Rainbow Hypnotist’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Rainbow Hypnotist’s Charisma modifier. The Rainbow Hypnotist gains additional spells per day for high Charisma.

Sorry if the table looks bad; I'm not used to putting those things together.

But yes, say hello to what is certainly a T6 spellcaster. Limited number of spells per day, a very limited spell list, spells which are useless against a large number of monsters, low DCs, no way to add additional spells to their spell list, and even Rainbow Servant won't help. (It adds to they class's spell list, but seeing as the class never chooses a spell from their spell list, that doesn't help much.) Oh, I am sure you could optimize Disguise into something useful, and a Hypnotist/Servant could use Cleric wands, but that's about it.

I notice that it gets more spells per day than the Adept, but given the Adept's far superior spell selection, I don't think that helps out too much.

Ziegander
2011-10-12, 02:53 PM
Rainbow Hypnotist

An inspired design and elegant mechanics. Well done. My only concern is that Color Spray is pretty amazingly effective at low level and far from useless at high levels. Sure, the save DC will continue to be low, but there's heighten for that, and no matter what level you are it's always an area-of-effect save or be stunned for 1 round. That's never bad. Immune to Mind-Afflicting does shut it down, but still.

Still... I like the mechanics of your T6 caster quite a lot. Nice job.

Mangles
2011-10-12, 03:55 PM
At 1st level, the Rainbow Hypnotist knows Color Spray as a first-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 4th level, they know Hypnotic Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 9th level, they know Rainbow Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. At 14th level, they know Scintillating Pattern as a second-level Rainbow Hypnotist spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.


Why are all their spells second level? I'm assuming an amusing error :p

erikun
2011-10-12, 04:15 PM
Why are all their spells second level? I'm assuming an amusing error :p
Yes, thank you for catching that. :smalltongue: After the second time of typing all that out, I was more inclined to just copy-paste the rest rather than re-typing everything. Corrected.


An inspired design and elegant mechanics. Well done. My only concern is that Color Spray is pretty amazingly effective at low level and far from useless at high levels. Sure, the save DC will continue to be low, but there's heighten for that, and no matter what level you are it's always an area-of-effect save or be stunned for 1 round. That's never bad. Immune to Mind-Afflicting does shut it down, but still.

Still... I like the mechanics of your T6 caster quite a lot. Nice job.
Thanks! And you are right, I did forget that Color Spray would still be so handy at higher levels. It is at least still a way they can remain useful in (some) combat situations, and next to the Commoner's Handle Animal and the Warrior's full BAB, it probably fits in pretty well.

Paulcynic
2011-10-12, 10:14 PM
The Templeguard (Paladin Light)
Probably a T5 even with its range restriction, but I'm thinking mostly in terms of a city-centric campaign :) I do like what you've done here, and can see a Monk/Templeguard as an awesome gestalt (more power when in his monastery).


why would anyone want to do this?
My girlfriend says the same thing about role playing...


'Red Tape Official'
Awesome, best parts of the bard without the headache of playing... a bard!


Then a 1/day ability called 'Friends in high places' at 3rd which allows them to automatically succeed one diplomacy check a day by name dropping
I lul'd and was intrigued all at the same time ;)


Adepts are easily T4-5, guy.
You are correct sir, went back and realized that I should rtfm :P I have nerfed his spell list considerably, to what would seem like a T6 list.


Your Gestahlt rules. Consider them stolen for a project I may or may not work on...
Glad to have paid this forward.


This makes me think....what tier would bloodlines be?
I encourage you to post a T6 Bloodline class :) An Infernal Bloodline class would be wicked.


Rainbow Hypnotist
I think... I think you're a genius. Well done :)

--PC

YouLostMe
2011-10-13, 12:45 AM
I've got no class to post (though I'm tossing around an idea for an even crappier monk), but let me critique your gestalt system:

* Tier 1 may never Gestalt. Cool.
* Tier 2 may Gestalt with a Tier 6 to become Tier 1. Lolwhut? Sorcerer//Warrior will never equal Wizard, no matter how much we may want it to. You'll need to gestalt this with a Tier 3-4 to make a Tier 1.
* Tier 3 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T2, or with a T5 to become T1. Another lolwhut here. If you want Tier 2, Gestalt with Tier 3-4 (the lower end of that probably isn't neough). If you want Tier 1, Gestalt with a high Tier 3 (and that's also definitely not enough. You just get option paralysis)
* Tier 4 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T3, with a T5 to become T2, or with a T4 to become T1. Ish. Tier 4 should gestalt with 4-5 to become Tier 3, and if you gestalt with Tier 3 you might reach Tier 2. You will never reach Tier 1 no matter how many Tier 4 classes you gestalt.
* Tier 5 may Gestalt with a T6 to become T4, with a T5 to become T3, with a T4 to become T2, or with a T3 to become T1. 5//6 I can see making a Tier 4 class, but it would take 5//4 to make a Tier 3 class, not 5//5. A Tier 5 class will at least need to triple gestalt above itself to make a decent Tier 2, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a good gestalt with Tier 5 that brings you up to Batman and CoDzilla's level.

Let me provide you with what I do believe is an OK (not very good) gestalt system.
T2//T3 = T1
T3//T3 = T2
T4//T4 = T3 (ish... T4//T4//T5 is probably better)
T5//T5 = T4
T6//T6 = T5 (sometimes. Commoner will get you nowhere)

Now, if you want to make a Tier 2 class starting with Tier 5, you just follow the progression:
T5//T5//T4//T3 would be a proper gestalt for a Tier 5 class to Tier 2 power, so it seems. Of course, the greater the number of gestalt classes, the worse things can get screwed out of proportion (option paralysis or ridiculous optimization, etc.)

YouLostMe
2011-10-13, 12:50 AM
Ah, and I have a class here for you. The Worse Monk.

Medium BAB, Good Ref, the AC Bonus and unarmed damage of a monk, and a Bonus Feat from the list of the 6 monk bonus feats starting at level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter.

Paulcynic
2011-10-13, 02:36 AM
Lolwhut? Sorcerer//Warrior will never equal Wizard, no matter how much we may want it to.
I'm not sure anything ever will. I recall JaronK stating that Wizards would go into their own Tier if it didn't make his system more complicated. Better to compare the final result to a Cleric or Druid (Pathfinder versions in our case), both powerful, but still inferior to a Wizard at the highest levels. And so to keep it simple, a Wizard ends up being T1, not T0.

With that in mind, I agree that my Tier-increases are a relativistic system, based on a fairly arbitrary (though well-thought) Tier system. A copy of a copy of a copy... is not perfect. And in a way, its absolutely impossible to Gestalt and understand exactly which Tier it would go in, more than just to say "its gone up." When you have two classes as one, you can still only take a Standard or Full-round action on your turn, and in spite of the increased options at your disposal, you have to pick the right one. I've seen plenty of people screw it up with only one set of class abilities to worry over, like when our cleric pulsed Channel Energy for 3D6 when nobody needed healing, and none of the undead were even damaged yet; when he could have chosen to Consecrate the area and mitigate the source of their continued creation...

And so the idea behind the Tier increases isn't raw power, but instead an improvement in useful versatility. I have a player who made a Two-handed Fighter Archetype under this system, character was level 7, while another chose to Gestalt a Fighter/Magus ending at T1 (5th level). They battled in some arenas for a best of 10 games, and they pretty much came out even (luck favored the Gestalt in the final round). There are plenty of bad Gestalts out there, which is why Optimizers get a rush of excitement when they've brewed up the perfect Twink, and no system can prevent awful choices in character design :)

That being said, my players are generally more satisfied under our system as it is written. And so I'm looking for some new flavors for them to try, is all; like erikun's Rainbow Hypnotist :) Makes you smile and wonder at the possibilities in tandem.

I'm currently working on a T6 Alchemist :) Thinking of how to preserve his Bomb mechanic; will post it soon.

Ashtagon
2011-10-13, 02:45 AM
Is it possible to have a T6 caster at all?

YouLostMe
2011-10-13, 02:51 AM
I do believe you may have missed what I was trying to communicate. While the example therein of Sorc//War =/= Wiz is something to think about, that applies for all of the Tier 2//Tier 6 combos. It's not that you can optimize and maybe come up with something, but that there is literally no way to optimize T2//T6 to make a T1. That's a big hole in the system that needs to be rectified, or else you may end up with players ironically making suboptimal decisions while thinking they are actually performing up to par (which is exactly what the existing Tier system was meant to stop).

When it is more effective to play a Sorcerer than a Dread Necro//Warrior, and neither character gets faster advancement or a higher point buy, the system needs to be changed.


Is it possible to have a T6 caster at all?

Look 8 posts above yours.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-13, 10:23 AM
It's nice to know I'm not the only one who adores gestalt. Currently GMing a triclass gestalt, where one character is a Warlock/Favored Soul/Bard and the other is a Rogue/Dragon Shaman/Sorcerer, with my NPC who pops in from time to time to give instructions (they're a scout team for a village of outcasts) being Monk/Rogue/Swashbuckler. It's a blast.

As for tiers, just in case those class lineups didn't give it away, we don't put much attention into balancing them out at that point, although I did make some attempt to poke spellcasting onto both the PCs. We've never really had an issue with power, but then, none of us count as optimizers; we all focus very heavily on the RP aspects. We've gone as much as two sessions without entering a battle once.

I really like the idea of this thread; it's giving me great ideas for mooks (of which my plot will require a large number of soon). My sad excuse of an attempt:

Pickpocket
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|
+0|+0|+2|+0|1d6
2|
+1|+0|+3|+0|Trapfinding
3|
+2|+1|+3|+1|
4|
+3|+1|+4|+1|
5|
+3|+1|+4|+1|2d6
6|
+4|+2|+5|+2|
7|
+5|+2|+5|+2|
8|
+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|
9|
+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|
10|
+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|3d6
11|
+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|
12|
+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|
13|
+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|
14|
+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|
15|
+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|4d6
16|
+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|
17|
+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|
18|
+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|
19|
+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|
20|
+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|5d6[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D6
Skill Points: 4 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Proficiencies: Pickpockets are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor, but no shields.

Sneak Attack: As the standard Rogue ability, only you gain damage at the indicated levels instead.

Trapfinding: As the Rogue ability.

Church Goer
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1|
+0|+2|+0|+0|Cure or Inflict Minor Wounds|2|-|-|-
2|
+1|+3|+0|+0||3|-|-|-
3|
+1|+3|+1|+1||3|-|-|-
4|
+2|+4|+1|+1|Cure or Inflict Light Wounds|3|0|-|-
5|
+2|+4|+1|+1||3|1|-|-
6|
+3|+5|+2|+2||4|2|-|-
7|
+3|+5|+2|+2||4|2|-|-
8|
+4|+6|+2|+2||5|3|-|-
9|
+4|+6|+3|+3|Cure or Inflict Moderate Wounds|5|3|0|-
10|
+5|+7|+3|+3||5|3|1|-
11|
+5|+7|+3|+3||5|4|2|-
12|
+6/+1|+8|+4|+4||5|4|2|-
13|
+6/+1|+8|+4|+4||6|4|3|-
14|
+7/+2|+9|+4|+4|Cure or Inflict Serious Wounds|6|4|3|0
15|
+7/+2|+9|+5|+5||6|4|3|1
16|
+8/+3|+10|+5|+5||6|5|3|2
17|
+8/+3|+10|+5|+5||6|5|4|2
18|
+9/+4|+11|+6|+6||6|5|4|3
19|
+9/+4|+11|+6|+6||6|5|4|3
20|
+10/+5|+12|+6|+6||6|5|4|3[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D4
Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Proficiencies: Church Goers are proficient with all simple weapons. They proficient with light armor, but not shield.

Spells: A Church Goer is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

An evil Church Goer must take Inflict spells, and a good Church Goer must take Cure spells; neutral Church Goers must pick which they get, but once the choice is made it can never be changed. At 1st level, the Church Goer knows either Cure Minor Wounds or Inflict Minor Wounds as a first-level Church Goer spell. At 4th level, they know either Cure Light Wounds or Inflict Light Wounds as a second-level Church goer spell. At 9th level, they know either Cure Moderate Wounds or Inflict Moderate Wounds as a third-level Church Goer spell. At 14th level, they know either Cure Serious Wounds or Inflict Serious Wounds as a fourth-level Church Goer spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

To cast a spell, a Church must have a Wis score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Church Goer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Church Goer’s Wis modifier. The Church Goer gains additional spells per day for high Wis.

Martial Initiate
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|
+0|+0|+2|+0|Improved Unarmed Strike
2|
+1|+0|+3|+0|Wis Mod to AC
3|
+2|+1|+3|+1|
4|
+3|+1|+4|+1|Unarmored AC Bonus +1
5|
+3|+1|+4|+1|
6|
+4|+2|+5|+2|Speed Boost +10 Feet
7|
+5|+2|+5|+2|Unarmed Damage Bonus +2
8|
+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|
9|
+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|Unarmored AC Bonus +2
10|
+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|
11|
+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|
12|
+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Speed Boost +20 Feet
13|
+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Unarmed Damage Bonus +4
14|
+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|Unarmored AC Bonus +3
15|
+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|
16|
+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|
17|
+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|
18|
+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Speed Boost +30 Feet
19|
+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Unarmored AC Bonus +4
20|
+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Unarmed Damage Bonus +6[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D6
Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex)

Proficiencies: Martial Initiates are proficient with the quarterstaff, the nunchaku and the kama. They gain no proficiencies in any armor or shields.

Improved Unarmed Strike: A Martial Initiate gains this as a bonus feat at second level.

Wisdom Modifier to AC: A Martial Initiate gains his Wis mod as a bonus to his AC while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

Unarmored AC Bonus: A Martial Initiate gains a bonus to his AC as listed at the appropriate level while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

Unarmed Damage Bonus: While fighting unarmed, a Martial Initiate deals extra damage as shown on the list at the appropriate levels.

Holy Warrior
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|
+1|+2|+0|+0|Code of Conduct
2|
+2|+3|+0|+0|Detect Evil
3|
+3|+3|+1|+1|Smite Evil 1/Day
4|
+4|+4|+1|+1|
5|
+5|+4|+1|+1|
6|
+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Lay On Hands
7|
+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|
8|
+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Smite Evil 2/Day
9|
+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|
10|
+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Divine Health
11|
+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|
12|
+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|
13|
+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Smite Evil 3/Day
14|
+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Divine Grace
15|
+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|
16|
+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|
17|
+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|
18|
+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Smite Evil 4/Day
19|
+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|
20|
+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D8
Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Proficiencies: Holy Warriors are proficient with all simple weapons, the longsword and the lance. They are proficient with light armor and medium armor, and with light shields.

Code of Conduct, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Lay On Hands, Divine Health, Divine Grace: As the Paladin abilities of the same name.

Caller
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Summon Monster I|0|-|-|-
2|+1|+0|+0|+3||1|-|-|-
3|+1|+1|+1|+3||1|-|-|-
4|+2|+1|+1|+4||1|-|-|-
5|+2|+1|+1|+4|Summon Monster II|2|0|-|-
6|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
7|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
8|+4|+2|+2|+6||3|1|-|-
9|+4|+3|+3|+6|Summon Monster III|3|2|0|-
10|+5|+3|+3|+7||3|2|1|-
11|+5|+3|+3|+7||4|2|1|-
12|+6|+4|+4|+8||4|3|1|-
13|+6|+4|+4|+8|Summon Monster IV|4|3|2|0
14|+7|+4|+4|+9||4|3|2|1
15|+7|+5|+5|+9||4|4|2|1
16|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|1
17|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|2
18|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|3|2
19|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|4|2
20|+10|+6|+6|+12||4|4|4|3[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Callers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Caller’s gestures, which can cause their spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: A Caller is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

At 1st level, the Caller knows Summon Monster I as a first-level Caller spell. At 5th level, they know Summon Monster II as a second-level Caller spell. At 9th level, they know Summon Monster III as a third-level Caller spell. At 13th level, they know Summon Monster IV as a fourth-level Caller spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

Callers are arcane spellcasters, and suffer Arcane Spell Failure when attempting to cast in armor.

To cast a spell, a Caller must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Caller gains additional spells per day for high Intelligence; in spaces where it reads 0 spells per day of that level, they only have spells if they get bonus spells for high Intelligence.

Elementalist
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Powers Known|Power Points/Day
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Energy Ray|1
2|+1|+0|+0|+3||2
3|+1|+1|+1|+3||3
4|+2|+1|+1|+4||4
5|+2|+1|+1|+4||5
6|+3|+2|+2|+5|Energy Push|6
7|+3|+2|+2|+5||7
8|+4|+2|+2|+6||8
9|+4|+3|+3|+6||9
10|+5|+3|+3|+7||10
11|+5|+3|+3|+7||11
12|+6|+4|+4|+8|Energy Missile|12
13|+6|+4|+4|+8||13
14|+7|+4|+4|+9||14
15|+7|+5|+5|+9||15
16|+8|+5|+5|+10||16
17|+8|+5|+5|+10||17
18|+9|+6|+6|+11|Energy Burst|18
19|+9|+6|+6|+11||19
20|+10|+6|+6|+12||20[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Psicraft (Int)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Elementalists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor does not, however, interfere with the use of his power manifestation.

Powers: An Elementalist is limited to what powers they can manifest. An Elementalist’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available, one point per level.

The powers he can manifest are determined by his level. At 1st level, the Elementalist knows Energy Ray as a first-level Elementalist power. At 6th level, they know Energy Push as a second-level Elementalist power. At 12th level, they know Energy Missile as a third-level Elementalist power. At 18th level, they know Energy Burst as a fourth-level Elementalist power. They do not learn any other powers, and those four powers compose the class's full power list.

To manifest a power, an Elementalist must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against an Elementalist's powers is 10 + the power’s level + the Elementalist’s Intelligence modifier.

An Elementalist's manifester level goes up slowly, once every odd level (1 at 1st, 2 at third, et cetra).

Savage
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|
+1|+2|+0|+0|Illiteracy
2|
+2|+3|+0|+0|Rage 1/day
3|
+3|+3|+1|+1|
4|
+4|+4|+1|+1|Fast Movement
5|
+5|+4|+1|+1|
6|
+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Rage 2/day
7|
+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|
8|
+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|
9|
+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|
10|
+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Rage 3/day
11|
+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Damage Reduction 1/-
12|
+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|
13|
+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|
14|
+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Rage 4/day
15|
+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|
16|
+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Damage Reduction 2/-
17|
+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|
18|
+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Rage 5/day
19|
+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|
20|
+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D10
Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Proficiencies: Savages are proficient with all simple weapons, the handaxe, the warhammer, the greataxe and the greatclub. They are proficient with light armor and with light shields.

Illiteracy, Rage, Fast Movement, Damage Reduction: As the Barbarian class abilities of the same name.

Let the record hereby state that I hate making tables. :smallannoyed:

Hope you all like these! :smallbiggrin:

Veklim
2011-10-13, 10:48 AM
Let the record hereby state that I hate making tables. :smallannoyed:

Do what I do, make a txt file with the basic table layout already entered, but no values. Then you can just copy/paste and fill in. A damned sight easier, believe me!

DeAnno
2011-10-13, 11:03 AM
Just out of interest Paulcynic, are you playing with Pathfinder material only, or is this system meant for a PF/3.5 full splat game?

gkathellar
2011-10-13, 11:08 AM
Hm. This is actually turning out really well, and I could see all these classes having a use in both a game and a setting. I especially like the spellcasters and the Lesser Rogue.

Paulcynic
2011-10-13, 12:33 PM
I do believe you may have missed what I was trying to communicate.
My apologies for my answer being so wordy, I agree with you that nothing will equal a Wizard, which you are defining as quintessential T1. The point that I made is that a T2 that gets a little more diversity isn't exactly a T2 any longer, and so I'm rounding fractions *up*. And so a Sorc/War is greater than just a Sorc in versatility (remember that the Tier system isn't about raw power, its about over-all contribution, with effectiveness being a factor). And so he is now "one tier higher" which happens to be T1.


are you playing with Pathfinder material only
My group plays with Pathfinder material almost exclusively, but we also play with custom material inspired by other RPGs, even those outside of 3.x :) Please feel free to drop any concept in here, so long as it amounts to a 3.x T6 class (or pretty close to one).


My sad excuse of an attempt:
I love how clean your T6 rogue is :) I would only change a couple of things, give him all bad saves, and slim his Skills per level down to 4+Int, maybe slice off a few class skills as well. Only reason is that he's currently more effective than the Expert by a bunch.

OR :)

We can treat him as the new Definition of T6. I'll leave that up to individual readers, of course :P Same with the Lesser Cleric, a bit higher than T6, but not really up to snuff with T5, so each reader should choose to round these up or down the Tier tree :)

In fact, I'll amend my OP to include this caveat.

--PC

gkathellar
2011-10-13, 12:43 PM
My apologies for my answer being so wordy, I agree with you that nothing will equal a Wizard, which you are defining as quintessential T1. The point that I made is that a T2 that gets a little more diversity isn't exactly a T2 any longer, and so I'm rounding fractions *up*. And so a Sorc/War is greater than just a Sorc in versatility (remember that the Tier system isn't about raw power, its about over-all contribution, with effectiveness being a factor). And so he is now "one tier higher" which happens to be T1.

Except that the difference in versatility isn't enough to actually elevate them. What YouLostMe is saying is that the difference in versatility between a Tier 1 and a Tier 2 is significant enough that you're going to need to staple on a lot more than just a Tier 6 in order to bridge that gap. Part of the reason for this is power: sure, adding warrior gives full BAB and better HD, but neither of those bonuses are actually significant additions. Not only do additions to a Tier 2 have to make them more versatile, their new options also have to keep up with (or get relatively close to) their old options in terms of power.

This is why it seems to me that you would need to Gestalt a Tier 2 with a Tier 3-4 to get a Tier 1: classes of those Tiers would add versatility, while also bringing enough raw power to those new options to be a significant contribution. A Sorcerer//Warblade can keep up with a Druid, but a Sorcerer//Warrior isn't really any better at that than a straight Sorcerer.

DeAnno
2011-10-13, 01:13 PM
This is why it seems to me that you would need to Gestalt a Tier 2 with a Tier 3-4 to get a Tier 1: classes of those Tiers would add versatility, while also bringing enough raw power to those new options to be a significant contribution. A Sorcerer//Warblade can keep up with a Druid, but a Sorcerer//Warrior isn't really any better at that than a straight Sorcerer.

I tend to agree with this. My catch all rule would be that Gestalting with any class of a lower tier than your first class moves you up a tier, and Gestalting with any class of the same tier as your first class moves you up two tiers. So 2+3=1, 3+3=1, 3+4=2, 2+4=1, 4+4=2, etc.

gkathellar
2011-10-13, 01:40 PM
I tend to agree with this. My catch all rule would be that Gestalting with any class of a lower tier than your first class moves you up a tier, and Gestalting with any class of the same tier as your first class moves you up two tiers. So 2+3=1, 3+3=1, 3+4=2, 2+4=1, 4+4=2, etc.

I don't think two Tier 3s add up to a Tier 1, and I certainly don't think two Tier 4s add up to a Tier 2. None of the classes involved can throw enough raw power into the equation. I'd say it's more like what YouLostMe outlined:

2+3 = 1
3+3 = 2 (but not always, sometimes just really high 3)

2+4 = 1 or 2, on a case by case basis
3+4 = High 3 or low 2, depending
4+4 = 3 (almost always)

2+5 = 2
3+5 = Higher 3
4+5 = 3 or high 4
5+5 = 4 or high 5

2+6 = 2
3+6 = 3, possibly higher 3
4+6 = Higher 4, possibly with rare exceptions reaching 3
5+6 = 4 or higher 5
6+6 = 5 or 6, depending on the involved classes

erikun
2011-10-13, 02:16 PM
T6 Rogue
This is actually pretty good when you compare it to, say, an Expert. Sure, it doesn't get Iaijutsu Focus, but it still has Diplomancy, Use Magic Device, Tumble, Spot/Hide/Move Silently, and enough skill points to use them.

I would think that a T6 Rogue might look more like this:

d6 Hit Dice
3/4 BAB
Trapfinding 1st level
+1d6 Sneak Attack on 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th level
6+Int skill points
Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

It pretty much eliminates their social interaction ability, with skills focused only on stealth and trap-removing, and takes away the very good Use Magic Device skill.


Lesser Cleric
Hmm, interesting. If I wanted to make a weak healing Cleric, though, I might actually give it some of the Paladin's abilities rather than spellcasting. I'd think that Lay on Hands, Remove Disease, some Remove Poison and a Stone to Flesh/Break Enchantment abilities useable 1/day or so might fit the Cleric theme better than just Cure X Wounds multiple times per day.

If we did want to keep the Cleric a spellcaster, how about Lay on Hands at first level, and then a few ward spells (Protection from Evil, Consecrate, Magic Circle against Evil, ???) as the few spells they have access to. That way, they'd still be able to heal and act "Clericy" without allowing the spells to overshadow others.

Hmm...

Lesser Battle Cleric:
d8 Hit Dice
3/4 BAB
All simple weapons, light and medium armor, shields (not tower shields)
Lay on Hands at 1st level
Remove Disease 1/week at 5th level, 2/week at 10th, 3/week at 15th, 4/week at 20th
Neutralize Poison 1/day at 3rd level, 2/day at 8th, 3/day at 13th
Break Enchantment 1/day at 10th level, 2/day at 20th

I would really worry about this guy overshadowing the Warrior, though.

Priestly Cleric:
d4 Hit Dice
1/2 BAB
All simple weapons, light armor, no shields
Same restriction as Druid/Healer in no metal armor
Lay on Hands at 1st level
"Aligns" to an alignment, depending on deity
Protection from [alignment] at 1st level, depending on alignment
Consecrate/Desecrate at 4th level, depending on alignment
Magic Circle against [alignment] at 9th level, depending on alignment
Raise Dead at 14th level

--

As for the tier discussion, the difference between Tier 2 and Tier 1 is that they both have the same general abilities, but Tier 1 has the option to swap out their abilities for any other abilities as they wish. A large enough collection of T2 classes could equal T1 by simply having enough class abilities to cover everything - a Sorcerer//Favored Soul//Beguiler//Dread Necro//Binder might make it to T1 - but simply attaching full BAB won't do it.

Tier 2 is distinct from Tier 3 due to having a lot more variety. Gestalting all the T3 classes together might get you a T2 class, but simply giving a T3 the abilities of a single other class are unlikely to work. Perhaps an exception would be a T3//Factotum gestalt, due to Factotum granting extra actions for the other class to take advantage of.

Tier 4 + Tier 4 = Tier 3 could work, because the limiting factor of T4 is their inability to do multiple things. Barbarian//Warlock would get you a flying, spellcasting melee class, while Rogue//Adept would have both skills and magic. Note, though, that is a pretty big "if", as T4 classes are commonly limited in what they can do in their own field.

For lower tiers, it would probably be best to analyze the result to see how it pans out. Fighter//Expert would actually be rather good; Healer//Commoner would not be any better than the standard Healer.

DeAnno
2011-10-13, 02:33 PM
I wasn't suggesting that somehow adding a T3 and a T3 somehow gives you a creature that looks like a T1; I was suggesting that within this ruleset that was probably the best way to handle things. Even though Gestalting a T2 with a T6 might not really make much improvement for the T2, if it was "free", then everyone would do it, and things don't make much sense. I was just trying to balance the benefits of certain Gestalts with the costs imposed by Adjusted Tiering.

You can do some very scary things with a double T3 for reference, especially when one them is a Sorcerer (what's up with that by the way?)

gkathellar
2011-10-13, 02:35 PM
You can do some very scary things with a double T3 for reference, especially when one them is a Sorcerer (what's up with that by the way?)

Sorcerer is Tier 2. Do you mean Wilder?

DeAnno
2011-10-13, 02:43 PM
Sorcerer is Tier 2. Do you mean Wilder?

Not according to the OP it isn't.

erikun
2011-10-13, 02:50 PM
Not according to the OP it isn't.
Huh?


1. Select a Class:
Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Wizard
Tier 2: Paladin, Summoner, Witch
Tier 3: Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Ninja, Oracle, Ranger, Sorcerer
Tier 4: Alchemist, Barbarian, Cavalier, Rogue, Samurai
Tier 5: Adept, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk
Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior
That's, uh... huh.

Did pathfinder do something very, very bizarre that the Paladin is now equal to a spontaneously casting Cleric, while the Sorcerer lost virtually all its versatility? Because this is a very unusual list.

gkathellar
2011-10-13, 02:50 PM
Not according to the OP it isn't.

Huhwhuh? Sorcerer is practically the definition of Tier 2. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4919.0)

EDIT: Yeah, I missed the OP's list. Which is insane. PF Paladins are T3-4, the Witch might hit T1, and Oracle and Sorcerer are both T2. So yeah, what?

Eldest
2011-10-13, 03:12 PM
[Lurked through the first page]
Quick tier definitions, correct me if they are wrong (I can't get acess to the originals).
1: Gamebreaking power, lots of versitility
2: Gamebreaking power, not really versitile
3: Great at one thing with alternatives if that one thing doesn't work
4: Either great at one thing and meh at others, or ok at a few things.
5: don't remember, will find it
6: see five

Pie Guy
2011-10-13, 05:29 PM
How about this: We take the tiers and invert them (Tier 1 becomes tier 6, tier 2 becomes tier 5, etc.) subtract 1 (tier 6 becomes tier 5, 5->4, 4->3, 3->2, 2->1, and 1 becomes .5 for future calculations).

Adding a gestalt adds half of the lower class' tier value to the higher class' value.

Tier 3 (originally tier 3) + 4 tier .5's (originally tier 6) becomes a tier 4 (originally tier 2). It's not a perfect system, but it could work.

Edit: A good thing about this is that you could go higher than 5 for truly silly levels of power. Wizard + Cleric + Druid? 5 + 2.5 + 2.5 for a total of 10. The only thing keeping him from completely wrecking every encounter in 1 turn is a lack of actions.

erikun
2011-10-13, 05:55 PM
The first problem is that there are only four T6 classes.

The second problem is that a Warblade // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner is not a T2, and doesn't even gain much of anything to distinguish it much from the basic Warblade. Heck, even a Fighter // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner would still be a T5 class.

This isn't going to work if the end product doesn't come out right. I mean, by your math, a Fighter // Monk // CA Ninja // Healer // Swashbuckler // Rokugan Ninja // Soulknife // Expert // OA Samurai // Paladin // Knight // CW Samurai // Aristocrat // Warrior // Commoner (gestalting all the T5/T6 classes) is worth seven "points" and is roughly equal to a Wizard//Archivist. However, even a brief look at the classes tells us this isn't the case. Our mass T5/T6 gestalt is probably T4, and likely not even as good as a T3 class. It most certainly is not a T1 class, nor one with twice the abilities.

Pie Guy
2011-10-13, 07:22 PM
The first problem is that there are only four T6 classes.

The second problem is that a Warblade // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner is not a T2, and doesn't even gain much of anything to distinguish it much from the basic Warblade. Heck, even a Fighter // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner would still be a T5 class.

This isn't going to work if the end product doesn't come out right. I mean, by your math, a Fighter // Monk // CA Ninja // Healer // Swashbuckler // Rokugan Ninja // Soulknife // Expert // OA Samurai // Paladin // Knight // CW Samurai // Aristocrat // Warrior // Commoner (gestalting all the T5/T6 classes) is worth seven "points" and is roughly equal to a Wizard//Archivist. However, even a brief look at the classes tells us this isn't the case. Our mass T5/T6 gestalt is probably T4, and likely not even as good as a T3 class. It most certainly is not a T1 class, nor one with twice the abilities.

I was going under the assumption that the T6 classes that were made here were in use, and that the classes picked wouldn't have too much overlap. Also, most DnD needs oversight by the DM, especially in extreme cases. Like most, it works best in the middle ranges, and perhaps only marginally well at all. I don't have a good eye for balance.

Paulcynic
2011-10-13, 08:30 PM
Did pathfinder do something very, very bizarre that the Paladin is now equal to a spontaneously casting Cleric, while the Sorcerer lost virtually all its versatility? Because this is a very unusual list.

Copy/pasted from our group's custom tier list. Sorc is T2, it has been corrected in the OP :) Ty for pointing it out and my apologies for being lazy.

However, Pathfinder's Paladin is much improved over 3.5, tremendously actually, and so he is a T2. The Witch is definitely a T1 class, we found that out in game play :) Corrected also. The Seer Archetype for the Oracle is extremely potent, I play one as my main toon, but over all the class is meh outside of those options. I'll do a little research in JaronK's post to see where he's placed it and update then.

I'll happily update the effect that Gestalting has on Tier-placement when everyone comes to a solid consensus on how the various Tiers affect each other :) I find the discussion refreshing and intriguing.

--PC

YouLostMe
2011-10-13, 10:09 PM
All right, with some obvious assent by other brewers here, I'm going to try and convince you to go for a Tier change one last time, and then I'm out.

The argument we're making is not that Sorc//War is less useful than just Sorc useful (it is--full bab on a caster is always nice), but that the equivalency you're establishing is wrong. You are offering T2//T6 and plain T1 classes the same point buy and same experience growth. While it's understandable that a nerf of some kind would be nice for a Sorc//War, it can't be the same nerf that you're putting on the wizard.

The system as it is rips your players off by creating trap options. That's cruel.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-13, 10:37 PM
Tweaked my two that I posted and renamed them accordingly. For the Pickpocket, I dropped the sneak attack to every 5th level instead of every 4th, gave them trapfinding at 2nd level, cut out a bunch of the skills I felt didn't fit the class, and cut the skillpoints to 4+Int mod per level. This will be my standard for viable T6 melee PC classes from now on. No real changes made to the Church Goer other than name; I kind of see him as the guy who goes to church on Sunday and is a little more devout than the average guy, but not as much as a Cleric.

I want to make at least a half dozen of these, because this inspired me for a great campaign:

You've served all your life. The Paladin's squire; a member of the congregation at church; a farmer who relies on the Druid's help; the lad who carries the Bard's harp. BUT NO MORE! Evil threatens the world. It needs a hero, a hero of the unlikeliest kind. This is the time for a new here. This is your time to be a hero.

Currently working on: T6 Paladin, T6 Barbarian, T6 Monk, T6 Ranger/Scout, T6 blaster caster (I will do my damnedest on this one, no promises). Will post them as I write them.

dspeyer
2011-10-13, 10:48 PM
Household Servant
{table]level|fort|ref|wis|bab|special
1|0|2|0|0|household knowledge
2|0|3|0|1|is the master angry?
3|1|3|1|1|hardly know they're there
4|1|4|1|2|your servant, sir
5|1|4|1|2|
6|2|5|2|3|dodge the crockery
7|2|5|2|3|
8|2|6|2|4|I've seen worse
9|3|6|3|4|
10|3|7|3|5|empty the chamberpot
11|3|7|3|5|
12|4|8|4|6|
13|4|8|4|6|hop to it
14|4|9|4|7|
15|5|9|5|7|
16|5|10|5|8|catch the crockery
17|5|10|5|8|
18|6|11|6|9|
19|6|11|6|9|
20|6|12|6|10|patience of a saint[/table]
Hit die: d6
Skill points 4+int
Skill list: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot
Weapon Proficiencies: club and quarterstaff

household knowledge -- add your class level to all knowledge checks about your current or former employers

is the master angry? -- you may make a sense motive check regarding a humanoid's emotional state based on a quick glimpse or the sound of their footsteps at no penalty

hardly know they're there -- add your class level to hide and move silently checks while performing situation-appropriate domestic tasks

your servant, sir -- add your class level to bluff and disguise checks to imitate a menial servant (of any employer you choose)

dodge the crockery --+2 bonus to AC or reflex saves against improvised thrown weaponry

I've seen worse -- +2 bonus to will saves against fear, pain or disgust

empty the chamberpot -- +2 bonus to fort saves against poison or disease

hop to it -- You may double your speed for up to ten minutes once a day. While in this state, you take no penalty for moving silently at full speed. Once you are done, you are exhausted until you rest. You cannot do this if you are already exhausted.

catch the crockery -- Once per round, you may catch an improvised thrown weapon aimed within 10 feet of yourself. Make a reflex save opposed by the attack role. If you succeed, neither you nor the item takes damage.

patience of a saint -- You made it all the way to level 20 in this class? You have the patience of something. Gain the saint template, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-13, 11:37 PM
I would have to say that the Saint template probably lands that in tier 5, though it may not. It's a good class, either way. Congratulations, you get the Crazy Person Stamp of ApprovalTM! :smallbiggrin:

In other news, lookie! A T6 Monk! It took a long time to get him to feel right, but I like the final result a great deal.

Martial Initiate
{TABLE]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|
+0|+0|+2|+0|Improved Unarmed Strike
2|
+1|+0|+3|+0|Wis Mod to AC
3|
+2|+1|+3|+1|
4|
+3|+1|+4|+1|Unarmored AC Bonus +1
5|
+3|+1|+4|+1|
6|
+4|+2|+5|+2|Speed Boost +10 Feet
7|
+5|+2|+5|+2|Unarmed Damage Bonus +2
8|
+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|
9|
+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|Unarmored AC Bonus +2
10|
+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|
11|
+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|
12|
+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Speed Boost +20 Feet
13|
+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Unarmed Damage Bonus +4
14|
+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|Unarmored AC Bonus +3
15|
+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|
16|
+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|
17|
+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|
18|
+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Speed Boost +30 Feet
19|
+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Unarmored AC Bonus +4
20|
+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Unarmed Damage Bonus +6[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D6
Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex)

Proficiencies: Martial Initiates are proficient with the quarterstaff, the nunchaku and the kama. They gain no proficiencies in any armor or shields.

Improved Unarmed Strike: A Martial Initiate gains this as a bonus feat at second level.

Wisdom Modifier to AC: A Martial Initiate gains his Wis mod as a bonus to his AC while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

Unarmored AC Bonus: A Martial Initiate gains a bonus to his AC as listed at the appropriate level while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

Unarmed Damage Bonus: While fighting unarmed, a Martial Initiate deals extra damage as shown on the list at the appropriate levels.

Paulcynic
2011-10-13, 11:41 PM
Tweaked my two that I posted and renamed them accordingly
Looks great now :) One of my players liked this one quite a bit and drew up a Fighter/Pickpocket. He's at his laptop atm writing up an inspired backstory, so ty for the contribution :)


Household Servant
Lul! One of these, with a Red Tape Official, a Rainbow Hypnotist, and a Pick Pocket would be the most awesomest Castle/Villiage Sitcom evar!


You've served all your life. The Paladin's squire; a member of the congregation at church; a farmer who relies on the Druid's help; the lad who carries the Bard's harp. BUT NO MORE! Evil threatens the world. It needs a hero, a hero of the unlikeliest kind. This is the time for a new here. This is your time to be a hero.
Love it :)


All right, with some obvious assent by other brewers here, I'm going to try and convince you to go for a Tier change one last time, and then I'm out.
No need, I haven't refused, only discussed why my system exists in its current state. I was reading and taking in your critiques, and was pointing out that your alternative didn't deal with the issue of "free Gestalting," which DeAnno pointed out here:

Even though Gestalting a T2 with a T6 might not really make much improvement for the T2, if it was "free", then everyone would do it, and things don't make much sense. I was just trying to balance the benefits of certain Gestalts with the costs imposed by Adjusted Tiering.
...such as a Sorc being T2, and then a Sorc/Warrior also being T2. That needs to be addressed somehow. I do not appreciate over-inflated emotional hyperbole, especially after my last sentence in my last post lul.

I said:
I'll happily update the effect that Gestalting has on Tier-placement when everyone comes to a solid consensus on how the various Tiers affect each other :) I find the discussion refreshing and intriguing.


The system as it is rips your players off by creating trap options. That's cruel.
No, because my players are not idiots. They wouldn't choose to Gestalt unless it proved beneficial, even under the rules as written. But I do appreciate your concern. But I also agree that these traps exist regardless of Gestalt. There are many poor class-options that optimizers can easily side step; Gestalting merely amplifies these pit-falls.

So lets get back on topic and come up with a more effective Gestalt Teir-advancement, as we've been doing through discussion :) And lets keep making these awesome T6s!

--PC

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-14, 12:18 AM
I'm honored he used my class! Please let me know how it works in play; only one of my classes actually has playtest time under its belt (Master of the Heavens, a very martial somewhat Druidic spontaneous caster based of different aspects found in outer space (will post it later, it's awesome)), and I really want my classes to see lots of use!

Still grinding away at the T6 Palading at the moment...

Mystic Muse
2011-10-14, 12:29 AM
However, Pathfinder's Paladin is much improved over 3.5, tremendously actually, and so he is a T2.

He might be tremendously improved, but that doesn't make him a Tier 2. It's still a tier 4, maybe low tier 3.

Paulcynic
2011-10-14, 01:21 AM
Hunted around the interwebs, seems high T4 low T3 is consensus. Fair enough, though in game play he's an exceptional striker/tank, so much that ppl are grumbling

Having said that, fighting evil is something paladins do very well in PF (though I personally think it's "too well").

I didn't make the tier system, and have no emotional attachment to the 'official' listing :) So ty for the feedback, OP has been corrected, placing him in T3 not only for his effectiveness, but the fact that he can also heal, and has decent (if focused) knowledge skills, and is a superior Diplomat due to his stat-priorities. That's a triple threat, though nothing Game Breaking, as defines T2 and T1.

EDIT: This also places the Summoner into T3, adjusted as well.

--PC

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-14, 02:20 AM
Speaking of Paladin and Summoner:

Holy Warrior
{TABLE]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|
+1|+2|+0|+0|Code of Conduct
2|
+2|+3|+0|+0|Detect Evil
3|
+3|+3|+1|+1|Smite Evil 1/Day
4|
+4|+4|+1|+1|
5|
+5|+4|+1|+1|
6|
+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Lay On Hands
7|
+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|
8|
+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Smite Evil 2/Day
9|
+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|
10|
+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Divine Health
11|
+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|
12|
+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|
13|
+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Smite Evil 3/Day
14|
+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Divine Grace
15|
+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|
16|
+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|
17|
+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|
18|
+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Smite Evil 4/Day
19|
+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|
20|
+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D8
Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Proficiencies: Holy Warriors are proficient with all simple weapons, the longsword and the lance. They are proficient with light armor and medium armor, and with light shields.

Code of Conduct, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Lay On Hands, Divine Health, Divine Grace: As the Paladin abilities of the same name.

Caller
{TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Summon Monster I|0|-|-|-
2|+1|+0|+0|+3||1|-|-|-
3|+1|+1|+1|+3||1|-|-|-
4|+2|+1|+1|+4||1|-|-|-
5|+2|+1|+1|+4|Summon Monster II|2|0|-|-
6|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
7|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
8|+4|+2|+2|+6||3|1|-|-
9|+4|+3|+3|+6|Summon Monster III|3|2|0|-
10|+5|+3|+3|+7||3|2|1|-
11|+5|+3|+3|+7||4|2|1|-
12|+6|+4|+4|+8||4|3|1|-
13|+6|+4|+4|+8|Summon Monster IV|4|3|2|0
14|+7|+4|+4|+9||4|3|2|1
15|+7|+5|+5|+9||4|4|2|1
16|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|1
17|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|2
18|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|3|2
19|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|4|2
20|+10|+6|+6|+12||4|4|4|3[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Callers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Caller’s gestures, which can cause their spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: A Caller is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

At 1st level, the Caller knows Summon Monster I as a first-level Caller spell. At 5th level, they know Summon Monster II as a second-level Caller spell. At 9th level, they know Summon Monster III as a third-level Caller spell. At 13th level, they know Summon Monster IV as a fourth-level Caller spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

Callers are arcane spellcasters, and suffer Arcane Spell Failure when attempting to cast in armor.

To cast a spell, a Caller must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Caller gains additional spells per day for high Intelligence; in spaces where it reads 0 spells per day of that level, they only have spells if they get bonus spells for high Intelligence.

EDIT: for easy perusal, all my T6 classes are now on the first page in my first post in this thread.

kulosle
2011-10-14, 04:55 AM
so take the factotum. and make him a "lucky" character. any int based ability is now based off of the number of luck feats he posses. is inspiration pool is also equal to the number of luck feats. make the spellcasting limited to just divination or just take it away entirely. get rid of the obviously awesome abilities like cunning surge and cunning dodge. all bad saves and be nice and say any 5 skills are his class skills. drop skill points to 2 and you have a useless character.

Phosphate
2011-10-14, 11:01 AM
The School Teacher

HD: d6
Alignment: any lawful
Age: moderate
Starting Gold: as wizard

Class skills: all of them
Skill points per level: 6 x Int mod (x 4 at 1st level)

BaB: 1/2
Good Save: none of them

{table=head]Level | Special

1 | Lecturing
2 |
3 | Linguistics
4 |
5 | Lecturing
6 |
7 |
8 | Linguistics
9 | Lecturing
10 |
11 | Book Expertise
12 |
13 | Lecturing
14 | Linguistics
15 |
16 |
17 | Lecturing
18 |
19 | Linguistics
20 | Lecturing, Repurposing
[/table]

Proficiencies: no armor, simple weapons

Lecturing (Ex): The Teacher starts ranting on several subjects. All friendly targets that can hear him within 60 feet gain a competence bonus to a skill equal to the Teacher's Int modifier.

The Teacher chooses 1 skill to rant about at level 1, and can choose a new skill at each of levels 5, 8, 13, 17, and 20. He may not rant about two skills at the same time. He cannot choose a skill if he does not have at least 5 ranks in him (except the skill chosen at level 1).

Lecturing takes a full round action to activate, close, or to change the skill it rants about. While it is active, the Teacher loses his swift action every round.

Linguistics: The Teacher learns a new language at levels 3, 8, 14 and 19. This can be any non-secret language.

Book Expertise (Ex): The Teacher uses Int as modifier for all skills, regardless of their actual modifiers.

Repurposing (Psi): The Teacher can use Psychic Reformation as a Wilder of his level, Int mod times per day. He does not pay a power point cost (he does, however, pay XP).

DracoDei
2011-10-14, 01:44 PM
Well, I think I should link to my Guardian of Minds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121215). I would copy all of it, but I don't feel like trying to recreate all the formatting and the thread is locked so I can't quote->copy->paste.

Analysis:
It is a scaled down paladin*. Now why is this particularly relevant given that there are at least two other things that fit that description in this thread? The answer is that it is built around Detect Evil/Chaos/Good/Law rather than combative abilities, it does have aura of courage and some other SLA's but those are directly designed to work with the Detect stuff. It is a good NPC class, but I am not sure how applicable it is here, mostly due to it its star class ability being very intentionally an X per YEAR ability that lasts Class-level MINUTES (and for best effect requires that you activate it while wearing armor your are normally non-proficient in).
*It can work with any alignment except chaotic, and if you really wanted to allow chaotic ones you could without changing any of the rules.

To further power it down do some or all of the following:

Drop Moral Champion
Drop Aura of Courage.
Change will save to Poor, perhaps moving Divine Grace to 1st level.
Remove some or all of the following skills from the skill list: Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Listen, Profession, Spot. Note that Listen and Spot are good for inquisitors and other nosy types. (Huh... an interesting replacement for that would be to give them class level to spot and listen checks made within... say 60' feet and/or only against things they already know are there... that way they aren't good watchmen, but can still listen in on people's conversations or notice useful details about people.)
Drop skill-points to 2+Int base.
Drop HD to d4s.
Change the bonuses from Moral Champion[Subvert the Invader] to virtual skill ranks that either don't stack with actual skill ranks, or only do so up to a character level+3 limit. This keeps the ability from being a "super-mode" when gestalted with rogue.


Doing all of these results in someone who isn't much good for leading mobs/rebellions from the front and who can't really survive as a member of the "laboring" peasantry (no applicable skills), meaning they HAVE to be a socially based character.

For those who hate clicking links or need how the class abilities often provide limited work-around to the numerical and skill-list limitations of the class. I will summarize the specifics as best I can without doing a lot of reformating in a spoiler.
Guardian of Minds(Can anyone come with a better name?)


Alignment:
Since a guardian of minds attempts to use his powers to adjust the way others think to more suit her vision for how the world should work, she may not be Chaotic. Since she has such a definite vision for the world (even maintaining an existing status quo) she may not be True Neutral. A guardian of minds suffers severe penalties for changing alignments.

Hit Die:
d6

Skills:*
Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(Religion)(Int), Listen(Wis), Profession(Wis), Sense Motive(Wis), and Spot(Wis)
*But see Moral Champion[Subvert the Invader]

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

BAB: Poor*
Fortitude: Poor*
Reflex: Poor
Will: Good

Weapons and Armor: Proficient with light armor*, shields(except tower shields), and simple weapons**.
*But see Moral Champion[Overt Heroics]
**But see Inspired Proficiency, note that this ability can only be activated while Moral Champion[Overt Heroics] is active.

Aura(Ex): To those who have eyes to see, you are your soul flies a banner proclaiming its allegiances. A mind guardian counts as a cleric of a god of his own alignment for purposes of how they show up to Detect Evil/Law/Chaos/Good, unless they have cleric levels, in which case that aura takes precedence.

Detect Alignment(Sp): After a hard day of farming, your REAL work starts. Now some would call hanging out in taverns and market-places easy, and, in some ways it is... but you have been granted eyes that can see the inclinations of the spirit and when the eye you have on the crowd finds something that needs correcting, then you must ready your heart to correct the problem. This is not always as easy as it sounds. At first level you gain the ability to detect one alignment at-will as a spell-like ability. This works as the appropriate spell, and has a caster level equal to your class level. You select the alignment you can detect(Law, Chaos, Good, or Evil) off of the following chart, within the restrictions set by your own alignment. At 4th, 7th, and 10th levels you gain the ability to select an additional alignment. If no alignments remain for you to select then the range of all your existing detection abilities granted by this class feature increases by 15 feet. This effect stacks with itself.
Your Alignment| Detectable Alignments
Lawful Good or Lawful Evil| Any
Neutral Good or Neutral Evil| Evil, Good
Lawful Neutral| Chaos, Law
At 13th level you may cast and maintain two separate detection class abilities simultaneously, as if they were a single spell.
At 16th level each round you spend concentrating on the this ability counts as two for determining how much information you obtain.
At 19th level if you are Lawful Good or Lawful Evil you may cast and maintain detection abilities for all four alignment components simultaneously, as if they were a single spell. If you are Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, or Neutral Evil, then concentrating on your detection abilities now only requires a move action each round, rather than a standard action and you may freely cast other spells (if you have some way of doing so) while maintaining such concentration.

Moral Champion(Ex): You do not relish conflict that involves either blades or trickery, but if it comes, your cause empowers you to deal with the crisis. Choose one of the following each time you activate this ability:
Subvert the Invader: Gain class level as competence bonus to Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Swim. All of these effects last a number of days equal to class level and you may use them untrained in that period. This version of this ability may be activated as a Full-Round action.
Overt Heroics: BAB changes to Full, Fortitude saves to Good, and gain benefits (but NOT drawbacks) of Barbarian rage (as per a barbarian of your class level) for 1 minute per class level. Fatigued for 24 hours afterward. This version of this ability may be activated as an immediate action.

Divine Concealment (Su): When subterfuge is needed, your soul's banner is furled. While under the effects of Subvert the Invader you gain the effects of Undetectable Alignment

Aura of Courage (Su): Your example grants bravery to those near to you, both with words, and sometimes even against supernatural forces. Beginning at 3rd level, a guardian of minds is immune to mundane fear. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against mundane fear effects. While her moral champion ability ability is active, this also applies to magical fear. This ability functions while the guardian of minds is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
At 9th level the radius of this ability increases to 20 feet, thus allowing them to support more who wish in their heart of hearts to stand by their side, but might otherwise lack the courage to actually do so.
At 15th level the radius increases again, this time to 30 feet.

Divine Grace (Su): For your service, the gods have their eye on you. At 5th level, a mind guardian gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws. This does not stack with the similar class features of a paladin, crusader, black-guard, or other such class(es).

Inspired Proficiency (Ex): At 6th level you may gain proficiency with any one martial weapon as a free action once per day while using Overt Heroics. at 18th level you may do this twice per day (during the same use of Overt Heroics), or may expend both uses to gain proficiency in one exotic weapon while using Overt Heroics. In any case the proficiencies end when the Overt Heroics end.

Tireless Moral Champion (Ex): At 20th level a you are no longer fatigued after Overt Heroics.

Code of Conduct

A mind guardian must maintain the same alignment as they had when they entered this class and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act that is of an alignment opposed to hers.

Additionally, a good mind guardian’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Lawful Neutral and Evil mind guardians have similarly restrictive codes dedicated to law and evil respectively.

Associates

While she may adventure with characters of any her own or neutral alignment, a mind guardian will never knowingly associate with characters who have an component to there alignment that directly opposes part or all of their own except for the purpose of altering said alignment component(s) or otherwise reforming/tempting them, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code except for similar reasons. A mind guardian may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who share all non-neutral components of her alignment (so a lawful good mind guardian could only have lawful good followers etc, but a Neutral Good one could mix and match between any of the three Good alignments).

Ex-mind guardians

A mind guardian who changes alignment, who willfully commits an act that is opposed to his alignment (for instance a lawful mind guardian who commits a chaotic act), or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all mind guardian spells and abilities (but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a mind guardian. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the aAtonement spell description), as appropriate.

Unlike paladins, mind guardians may multiclass freely, in fact, a paladin/mind guardian can mix and match levels as they please to progress through both classes.

Treblain
2011-10-14, 04:21 PM
Here’s a class I just came up with. I’m not sure if it’s tier six, but it’s not too great. It's more like the monk than the commoner; full of interesting but not particularly good abilities. I'd rather make an interestingly ineffective class than simply give it no class features or rig the math so it's ineffective.

The Clown

Hit points: 6+CON at first level, 1d6+CON at each level.

Proficiencies: The clown is proficient in all bludgeoning simple weapons. He is considered proficient in daggers only when used as thrown weapons. It gains no proficiency in armor or shields.

Skill points: (6+INT)*4 at first level, 6+INT at each level.
The clown’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Tumble (Dex).


{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort.|Ref.|Will|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0| Costume, Entertain|

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|Mask of Seriousness|

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+3|
+1|Distraction|

4th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|Favor of the Comedy Gods|

5th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|

6th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|Comedic Surge|

7th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|Skill Mastery|

8th|
+4|
+2|
+6|
+2|Circus Negotiation|

9th|
+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|Versatile Performer|

10th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Skill Mastery|

11th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+8|
+4| Channel Nightmares|

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+8|
+4|Skill Mastery|

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+9|
+4|Fear Immunity|

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+9|
+5|Surprise!|

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+10|
+5| Skill Mastery|

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+10|
+5|

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|

19th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+11|
+6|

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Killing Joke|
[/table]

Class Features:

Costume: At first level, a clown receives a clown costume, which he must wear in order to make use of his class features. Wearing it means he is unable to use armor without difficulty. If he loses his costume, he is unable to advance in this class or use class features until he buys a new one. In addition, he costume's appearance bestows a -4 penalty to Hide checks when partially visible, and its oversized, squeaky shoes bestow a -4 penalty to Move Silently checks.
Entertain: A clown has the ability to entertain others a number of times per day equal to his class level + his CHA modifier. Many of his class features consume his Entertain uses.
Mask of Seriousness: At second level, a clown learns that the most important part of humor is when not to laugh. He is immune to Hideous Laughter, his own Killing Joke ability, and any other laugh-based ability (at the DM’s discretion). He is also unable to smile or laugh unless it is part of an act.
Distraction: A clown can use his Entertaining skills to distract others. As a standard action, he can expend an Entertain use to fascinate an enemy, as the bardic music ability. He can fascinate two enemies at 7th level, three at 11th, five at 15th, and ten at 19th.
Favor of the Comedy Gods: Starting at fourth level, a clown can expend an Entertain use to cast any cantrip on the Bard list as a spell-like ability.
Comedic Surge: At sixth level, the clown’s act can invigorate allies. As a standard action, he can expend two Entertain uses and make a Perform check to grant an ally within 30 feet temporary hitpoints equal to their CON score. The check’s DC is 10+the ally’s CON score.
Skill Mastery: At 7th level, the clown can apply Skill Mastery, as the rogue ability, to one of his skills. He can apply the benefit to another skill at 10th, 13th, and 16th level. Each time he takes 10 on a skill, he must expend an Entertain use.
Circus Negotiation: At 8th level, the clown learns to negotiate like any true carny. When making a Diplomacy check, he can spend an Entertain use and make a Perform check at a –5 penalty in its place.
Versatile Performer: At 9th level, the clown gains Versatile Performer as a bonus feat.
Channel Nightmares: At 12th level, the clown learns how to transform his charming appearance into a nightmarish visage of evil. As a standard action, he can spend an Entertain use to try to intimidate one enemy within 30 feet. They must make a Will save, with the DC being the result of the clown’s Perform check. If they fail, they are shaken. If used on a shaken foe, they increase to frightened, but cannot be scared further.
Fear Immunity: At 14th level, the clown becomes immune to all fear effects due to his extensive stored knowledge of comedy and subtle understanding of emotions.
Surprise!: At 15th level, the clown can “play along” when surprised by enemies. If he is surprised, he can spend an Entertain use to act normally in the surprise round.
Killing Joke: At 20th level, the clown learns the most secret of secret clownian rituals. He can expend three uses of his Entertain ability to tell a joke so funny that anyone who hears it is unable to stop laughing. Anyone close enough to hear and understand the joke being told must make a Will save to avoid laughing. If they fail, they start laughing uncontrollably, and are treated as if they are cowering. After a number of rounds equal to their CON modifier, they must make a Fortitude save or die instantly. The DC for both saves is equal to 20+ the clown’s CHA modifier. This is a sonic, mind-affecting, language-dependent effect (though the joke can be told in any language the clown can speak).

flabort
2011-10-14, 04:56 PM
Now that there's one or more "T6" casters, would it be possible to make a "T6" with ToB? Alright, that's the next challenge. Any takers? :smallwink:

Treblain
2011-10-14, 09:04 PM
Now that there's one or more "T6" casters, would it be possible to make a "T6" with ToB? Alright, that's the next challenge. Any takers? :smallwink:

I don't think it's possible, since even a Tier 6 class has the ability to take Martial Study as many times as they want.

EDIT: Heck, just giving them a recovery method probably pushes them past T6.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-14, 09:24 PM
I'm currently working on a T6 Psion, will post it when done.

I try not to touch ToB even when not limiting myself to T6. :smalltongue:

DracoDei
2011-10-14, 09:59 PM
The Clown needs lack of armor and shield proficiencies explicitly stated.


I don't have my ToB with me, but I guess I will give this a shot... may be noticably more powerful with Stone Dragon than with other disciplines.
Lesser Martialist

Hit points: 6+CON at first level, 1d6+CON at each level.

Skill points: (2+INT MOD)*4 at first level, 2+INT MOD at each level.
The Lesser Martialist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Concentration(Con), Craft(Wis), and Swim (Str). Plus the associated skills for their two disciplines. If Ride is added to their skill list in this way, then Handle Animal(Cha) is also added. If either of their disciplines has any sort lance as an associated weapon, then both Ride(Dex) and (Handle Animal) is are added to their skill list. If either discipline would add a skill that is already on their basic skill list then then they instead gain 2 free ranks in that skill. If both selected disciplines have the same associated skill then they ALSO gain a SEPARATE 2 free ranks in that skill. In NO case does this allow the usual Character level +3 limitation on ranks to be exceeded.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort.|Ref.|Will|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+0|2|2|0|Difficult Re-stancing

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+0|3|2|0

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+1|3|2|1

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+1|3|3|1

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+1|4|3|1

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+2|4|3|2

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+2|4|4|2

8th|
+6/1|
+6|
+2|
+2|5|4|2

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+3|5|4|3

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+3|5|5|3

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+3|6|5|3

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+4|6|5|4

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+4|6|6|4

14th|
+10/5|
+9|
+4|
+4|7|6|4

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+5|7|6|5

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|7|7|5

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|8|7|5

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|8|7|6

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|8|8|6

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|9|8|6[/table]


Proficiencies: The Lesser Martialist is proficient with Light and Medium armor light and heavy shields (but not tower shields), and all simple melee weapons. In addition they are proficient with all the associated weapons of their disciplines, including the defensive uses of tower shields if tower shields are an associated WEAPON of either of their disciplines. If any weapon appears on the associated weapon list for both disciplines then they gain weapon focus for that weapon. If they select Stone Dragon or another discipline that discourages movement to an equal degree with the fact that several (all?) of Stone-Dragon's stances end if the martial initiator moves, then they also gain proficiency with tower shields and heavy armor.

Disciplines: At first level the Lesser Martialist selects two disciplines that they have access to. They must meet all special requirements of that discipline (Not true neutral for Devoted Spirit, Psionic power for Sleeping Goddess, non-lawful for Falling Anvil, etc). They add all associated weapons for their disciplines to their list of proficiencies and add the associated skills to their class skill list. This may have additional effects, check the appropriate section. The lesser martialist requires one minute of uninterrupted weapon exercises to recover an expended maneuver, however he may prepare any maneuver(s) at that are each least one less than the highest level maneuver he can initiate in more than one slot (but still one maneuver per slot), to allow him to use it more than once in a row (and this is necessary to use a maneuver more than once in most combats). Changing his mix of maneuvers prepared requires him to have no expended maneuvers and to perform five minutes of uninterrupted weapon exercises. Note that unlike most martial initiators, they MAY NOT swap out maneuvers known via this class at any level.These is the ONLY way maneuvers in these slots may be recovered or exchanged (specifically Adaptive Style has NO effect with this class).

Difficult Re-stancing: Unless the lesser martialist has at least 1 stance from a source other than this class, he requires a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to change his stance (including entering a stance from not being in one), unless the stance would normally require longer than a full-round action to enter.

dspeyer
2011-10-14, 11:21 PM
This looks too powerful, unless I've missed something. It still gets access to martial powers at full rate, and new powers almost as fast as a warblade. Adaptive style fixes the recovery, It adds up to powerful abilities usable almost consistently, probably T4.

dspeyer
2011-10-14, 11:38 PM
Common Thug

It is humiliating for one of my talents to defeat such an opponent
-- Lusef Malpat, paladin who later fell due to excessive pride

{table=head]level|fort|ref|wis|bab|special
1|2|0|0|1|swift appraisal
2|3|0|0|2|ugly (+1 intimidate, -2 diplomacy)
3|3|1|1|3|fighter bonus feat
4|4|1|1|4|
5|4|1|1|5|stone dragon maneuver (2nd level)
6|5|2|2|6|ugly (+2 intimidate, -4 diplomacy)
7|5|2|2|7|sneak attack 1d6
8|6|2|2|8|
9|6|3|3|9|fighter bonus feat
10|7|3|3|10|ugly (+3 intimidate, -6 diplomacy)
11|7|3|3|11|stone dragon maneuver (4th level)
12|8|4|4|12|
13|8|4|4|13|sneak attack 2d6
14|9|4|4|14|ugly (+4 intimidate, -8 diplomacy)
15|9|5|5|15|fighter bonus feat
16|10|5|5|16|
17|10|5|5|17|stone dragon maneuver (6th level)
18|11|6|6|18|ugly (+5 intimidate, -10 diplomacy)
19|11|6|6|19|sneak attack 3d6
20|12|6|6|20|genre savvy[/table]
Hit die: d8
Proficient with simple weapons and light armor
Skill Points: 2+int
Skills: Appraise, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(local), Move Silently

Most of the class features are pretty self-explanatory, except:

swift appraise: in a standard action at a distance, determine the value of clothing or jewelry to plus/minus 50%

stone dragon maneuvers: select a single stone dragon maneuver of up to the level listed. You need not meet the prerequisites. You can use it once per encounter.

genre savvy: You've been burned (frozen, zapped, dissolved) too many times in the entry scenes of more powerful characters to fall for that any more. Whenever you prepare an ambush of a character with levels in a Tier 1-3 class or a CR >5 monster disguised as a humanoid, your scars itch.

DracoDei
2011-10-15, 12:10 AM
This looks too powerful, unless I've missed something. It still gets access to martial powers at full rate,
And not getting very many of them (especially when you take into account that you DON'T get to trade up) doesn't help much? Especially when you take into account that you have a REALLY bad recovery mechanic, especially with your highest level maneuver? (and you will only ever have ONE maneuver of the highest level after 5th level, which is when you get your first 2nd level maneuver)
But yeah, I could drop it down to 2/2/0 at 1st level. Do you think that would help?
[/QUOTE]

and new powers almost as fast as a warblade.
Nope. All ToB classes get replacement (at levels 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, etc) , which pushes them into the lead.

Adaptive style fixes the recovery,
If you look at the rules for "Adaptive Style" I do believe you will see that it requires a level of SWORDSAGE... If I am misremembering I can specifically nix that.

It adds up to powerful abilities usable almost consistently, probably T4.
Yeah, I thought it was probably too powerful...

Phosphate
2011-10-15, 12:13 AM
I'm currently working on a T6 Psion, will post it when done.

Not too hard actually. Just make their power pool equal to their manifester level. Then remove broken low level stuff like Death Urge.

Ziegander
2011-10-15, 12:31 AM
Common Thug

This is also clearly not T6. It is certainly T5, if not T4. Full BAB, a not horrible list of class skills, some sneak attack, some stone dragon maneuvers, some bonus feats. Even the bonus to Intimidate can be useful. Even lowering the BAB to medium and losing the maneuvers feels like it would still be T5. Shrug.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-15, 01:48 AM
Elementalist
{TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Powers Known|Power Points/Day
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Energy Ray|1
2|+1|+0|+0|+3||2
3|+1|+1|+1|+3||3
4|+2|+1|+1|+4||4
5|+2|+1|+1|+4||5
6|+3|+2|+2|+5|Energy Push|6
7|+3|+2|+2|+5||7
8|+4|+2|+2|+6||8
9|+4|+3|+3|+6||9
10|+5|+3|+3|+7||10
11|+5|+3|+3|+7||11
12|+6|+4|+4|+8|Energy Missile|12
13|+6|+4|+4|+8||13
14|+7|+4|+4|+9||14
15|+7|+5|+5|+9||15
16|+8|+5|+5|+10||16
17|+8|+5|+5|+10||17
18|+9|+6|+6|+11|Energy Burst|18
19|+9|+6|+6|+11||19
20|+10|+6|+6|+12||20[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Psicraft (Int)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Elementalists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor does not, however, interfere with the use of his power manifestation.

Powers: An Elementalist is limited to what powers they can manifest. An Elementalist’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available, one point per level.

The powers he can manifest are determined by his level. At 1st level, the Elementalist knows Energy Ray as a first-level Elementalist power. At 6th level, they know Energy Push as a second-level Elementalist power. At 12th level, they know Energy Missile as a third-level Elementalist power. At 18th level, they know Energy Burst as a fourth-level Elementalist power. They do not learn any other powers, and those four powers compose the class's full power list.

To manifest a power, an Elementalist must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against an Elementalist's powers is 10 + the power’s level + the Elementalist’s Intelligence modifier.

An Elementalist's manifester level goes up slowly, once every odd level (1 at 1st, 2 at third, et cetra).

This is a T6 Kineticist. I'm working on a T6 of the other 5 disciplines as well, plus other fun stuff (still working on my Ranger/Scout and Barbarian) so stay tuned! :smallsmile:

I actually really like the Common Thug, but I think it rises above T6, sorry. Still, it's good enough you could flesh it out more and make it a viable goon class; I know I'd use it against my PCs when they hit a city.

Phosphate
2011-10-15, 06:02 AM
The Elementalist is....a bit abusive, if you ask me :smallsigh:

As in, too weak even for Tier 6. I mean, the samurai is also T6 and arguably much, MUCH stronger.

What I'm saying is that it has no gestalting value whatsoever.

Hanuman
2011-10-15, 07:52 AM
Housecat
"Meow" -Housecat

-Is a housecat

----------

This class can go toe to toe with any tier 6 on the block.

DracoDei
2011-10-15, 12:00 PM
Reduced maneuvers known/readied by 1 each on the Lesser Martialist. It still might be a higher tier but I am taking this one step at a time...
Should I make it one discipline instead of two?
Are we assuming Age of Warriors rule about being able to add a new discipline for 1,000 XPs? That could makea big difference at later levels especially if we cut them back to 1 discipline to start with.
How much would 2/3's (minimum 1) initiator progression help?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-15, 12:17 PM
If you look at the rules for "Adaptive Style" I do believe you will see that it requires a level of SWORDSAGE... If I am misremembering I can specifically nix that.

No. By strict RAW, it requires warblade, swordsage, or crusader level 1st. By RAMS, it requires one level in a martial adept class.

Even without Adaptove Style, with the stances it's still tier 5 at the minimum.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-15, 12:40 PM
The Elementalist is....a bit abusive, if you ask me :smallsigh:

As in, too weak even for Tier 6. I mean, the samurai is also T6 and arguably much, MUCH stronger.

What I'm saying is that it has no gestalting value whatsoever.

:smalleek: I would have pegged Samurai as T5. Are we talking the same class (the one found in Complete Warrior)?

As for power level, I didn't want it to overshoot the tier barrier, but if someone else thinks it's too weak I can buff it a little. Maybe give it more PP a day or something.

Amechra
2011-10-15, 01:02 PM
They already get extra pp from having a high intelligence modifier, and Expanded Knowledge can get them more stuff.

The Elementalist is stronger than you think; Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) at 6th level would be a lovely boost...

Dang, I just noticed that they have 1/3 manifesting level; I would suggest raising that to 1/2, just because it comes out a little nicer, in my mind (and they wouldn't be able to manifest 4th level powers with a manifester level of 6. Sorry.)

Ziegander
2011-10-15, 02:57 PM
I don't think it's possible, since even a Tier 6 class has the ability to take Martial Study as many times as they want.

So, because a Tier 6 class can take a feat to gain a maneuver, giving something a maneuver as part of their class automatically makes them higher than Tier 6? That is highly illogical.

THE SELF-DEFENSE ENTHUSIAST

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
M. Ready|
Stances

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Discipline Study|
1|
0

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0||
1|
0

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1||
1|
0

4th|+3|+1|+4|+1||
1|
0

5th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Discipline Study|
1|
0

6th|+4|+2|+5|+2||
1|
0

7th|+5|+2|+5|+2||
2|
0

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2||
2|
1

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3||
2|
1

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|Discipline Study|
2|
1

11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+3||
2|
1

12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4||
2|
1

13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4||
2|
1

14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+4||
2|
1

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|Discipline Study|
2|
1

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5||
2|
2

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5||
2|
2

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6||
3|
2

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6||
3|
2

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Discipline Study|
3|
2
[/table]

Class Skills: (2 + Int modifier) Craft, Profession, and Swim (see also Discipline Study).

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Self-Defense Enthusiast is proficient with no armors or shields (see also Discipline Study).

Discipline Study
Having spent some time at the local dojo you have started your training in a martial discipline. You begin play with the knowledge of a single maneuver from the martial discipline of your choice. You have an initiator level equal to half your class levels rounded up.

Upon choosing this maneuver you may never choose maneuvers from another discipline unless they are of a level from which you have learned all of the maneuvers of your chosen discipline. You are also proficient with all simple melee weapons associated with the discipline and add the key skill of the discipline to your list of class skills.

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter you learn an additional maneuver from your chosen discipline.

Maneuvers Readied
You may ready your only known maneuver at 1st level, but as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers you must choose which of your maneuvers to ready. You ready your maneuvers by exercising and practicing with your sensei at the local dojo for 1 hour. These maneuvers remain readied until you decide to exercise and change them.

A maneuver once readied is unexpended until it is used. Once expended a maneuver cannot be used again until it is recovered, a process that is different for all martial initiators. To recover your maneuvers you must spend 10 minutes in rest, refreshing your muscles and gathering your thoughts. Each 10 minutes of rest recovers all of your expended maneuvers. Unlike other martial initiators you do not automatically regain the use of your maneuvers at the start of each encounter.

Stances Known
You do not begin play knowing any stances. At 8th level you learn your first stance, and it must be a stance from your chosen discipline. When you do you may also choose a martial melee weapon associated with your discipline and gain proficiency with it.

Unlike manuevers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you are currently using as a swift action. At 16th level you learn an additional stance from your chosen discipline.

flabort
2011-10-15, 04:15 PM
Ouch. That, could be a T6 initiator.
I see the challenge has been accepted three times. Although, this latest one is closest, I think.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-15, 04:19 PM
I have a challenge! Can anyone make a tier 6 artificer?

Ziegander
2011-10-15, 04:31 PM
I have a challenge! Can anyone make a tier 6 artificer?

I think I can. I'll give it a try shortly.

The Craftwright

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d4

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Craft Level|Craft Reserve

1st|+0|+0|+0|+0|Skill Focus (Craft)|
--|
--

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+0|Savvy Marketer|
--|
--

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+1|Efficient Craftsman|
--|
--

4th|+2|+1|+1|+1|Craft Magic Arms & Armor|
1st|
10

5th|+2|+1|+1|+1||
1st|
20

6th|+3|+2|+2|+2||
1st|
30

7th|+3|+2|+2|+2||
1st|
40

8th|+4|+2|+2|+2|Brew Potion|
2nd|
50

9th|+4|+3|+3|+3||
2nd|
75

10th|+5|+3|+3|+3||
2nd|
100

11th|+5|+3|+3|+3||
2nd|
125

12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+4|Craft Wondrous Item|
3rd|
150

13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+4||
3rd|
200

14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+4||
3rd|
250

15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5||
3rd|
350

16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+5|Forge Ring|
4th|
450

17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+5||
4th|
600

18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6||
4th|
750

19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6||
4th|
1000

20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+6|Tireless Craftsman|
4th|
1250
[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Local), Profession, Speak Language, and Spellcraft.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Craftwright is proficient with one simple weapon and with no armor or shields.

Skill Focus
At 1st level a Craftwright receives Skill Focus for the Craft skill as a bonus feat.

Savvy Marketer (Ex): Starting at 2nd level a Craftwright may sell items to other merchants for 75% of their purchase price rather than 50% and may buy items at a 5% discount.

Efficient Craftsman (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Craftwright is able to buy raw materials for crafting any item at a 25% discount (this doesn't stack with Savvy Marketer) and reduces the time needed to craft any item by 25%.

Craft Level
Beginning at 4th level a Craftwright is able to craft magic items without needing a caster level and without knowing any of the required spells as long as those spells aren't of a level above the Craft Level given in the table above. This ability allows the Craftwright to craft alchemical items as if he were a spellcaster.

He must still have the corresponding Item Creation Feats to do so, and because he does not actually know any spells he may not use the Scribe Scroll feat to create magic scrolls.

He may not craft items that require divine spells.

Craft Reserve
A 4th level Craftwright has a reserve of points that he may use in place of the XP needed to craft items, exchanging craft reserve points for XP on a one-for-one basis.

Bonus Feats
A Craftwright gains Craft Magic Arms & Armor as a bonus feat at 4th level, Brew Potion as a bonus feat at 8th level, Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat at 12th level, and Forge Ring as a bonus feat at 16th level. He doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for these feats.

Tireless Craftsman (Ex): A 20th level Craftwright is immune to exhaustion, fatigue, and sleep effects. He no longer needs to eat or sleep as long as he is crafting an item.

Veklim
2011-10-15, 04:40 PM
Pretty easy I would have thought. Take away the infusions and replace with something more akin to a magic weapon/vestment type x/day ability, and give them a few of the lower end item creation feats. Reduce to poor BAB and you're pretty much there.

erikun
2011-10-15, 04:55 PM
I have a challenge! Can anyone make a tier 6 artificer?
Sure, that shouldn't be too hard.

Arcana Crafter
{TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+0|+0|+0|Magical Crafting, Scribe Scroll
2|+1|+0|+0|+0|
3|+1|+1|+1|+1|Brew Potion
4|+2|+1|+1|+1|
5|+2|+1|+1|+1|
6|+3|+2|+2|+2|Craft Wand
7|+3|+2|+2|+2|
8|+4|+2|+2|+2|
9|+4|+3|+3|+3|Craft Magic Arms And Armor
10|+5|+3|+3|+3|
11|+5|+3|+3|+3|
12|+6|+4|+4|+4|Craft Wondrous Item
13|+6|+4|+4|+4|
14|+7|+4|+4|+4|
15|+7|+5|+5|+5|Craft Rod
16|+8|+5|+5|+5|
17|+8|+5|+5|+5|
18|+9|+6|+6|+6|Craft Staff
19|+9|+6|+6|+6|
20|+10|+6|+6|+6|Forge Ring
[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Craft (any, taken seperately), Knowledge (Local), Search, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device

Magical Crafting
An Arcana Crafter may craft magical items, despite the inability to cast spells. The Arcana Craft is treated as having half their class level in any other class for purposes of spells known for item creation, and must have (class level * 2 - 1) in order to create an item using a spell.

If the spell would normally call for an XP component or material component with a given gold value, the Arcana Craft must provide pay for the components as if they were casting the spell.
The unusual (class level * 2 - 1) is there to prevent the class from making, say, 6th level spell scrolls at first level thanks to the Sublime Chord PrC. I'm honestly not sure how the actual Artificer handles that, and so may have a better solution.

Simply put: The class has no skills, no combat utility, and no reserve XP. They must make everything they want to use, and only have an effective half-caster level when crafting stuff.

dspeyer
2011-10-15, 05:19 PM
Lesser Martialist: at level twenty, this enters an encounter able to perform 2 9th level maneuvers and an 8th level maneuver many times. They can be chosen from good disciplines. That's too good for T6, even if everything else about the class sucks.

Common Thug: I tried to make it a clunkier version of the fighter, which is T5. I guess it works together a little better than I thought. I'll tweak it.

Meanwhile, all this violence has inspired me.

Wretched Coward

{table=head]level|fort|ref|wis|bab|special
1|2|2|0|0|basic paranoia
2|3|3|0|1|
3|3|3|1|1|
4|4|4|1|2|
5|4|4|1|2|run away!
6|5|5|2|3|
7|5|5|2|3|
8|6|6|2|4|
9|6|6|3|4|
10|7|7|3|5|greater paranoia
11|7|7|3|5|
12|8|8|4|6|
13|8|8|4|6|
14|9|9|4|7|
15|9|9|5|7|get me out of here!
16|10|10|5|8|
17|10|10|5|8|
18|11|11|6|9|
19|11|11|6|9|
20|12|12|6|10|scream and beg[/table]
Hit die: d8
Class Skills: climb, diplomacy, listen, jump, spot, swim
Skills: 2+int
Weapons: none
Armor/Shields: all, including tower shields

basic paranoia -- you may make listen checks at no penalty while sleeping

run away! -- add 10 ft to all movement speeds when going away from danger

greater paranoia -- +4 on will saves against charm effects, because you know everyone is really out to get you

get me out of here! -- +5 morale bonus to climb jump or swim checks to avoid danger

scream and beg -- Any intelligent creature that hears you scream for help or beg for mercy understands you, regardless of common language. They do not feel any special inclination to do so, however.

Ziegander
2011-10-15, 05:20 PM
My version is up in my post above. To be honest, Erikun's version is probably... Tier 4. Maybe even Tier 3. :smalleek: It can cast spells from scrolls, wands, and staffs without ever needing UMD and it has access to spells up to 5th level from all class lists. A bit too powerful in my opinion. That's why I limited my version's direct spell access to just Potions. The spell access is much more powerful than the craft reserve.

erikun
2011-10-15, 05:34 PM
It can cast spells from scrolls, wands, and staffs without ever needing UMD and it has access to spells up to 5th level from all class lists.
Only for the purposes of crafting, though. It still requires UMD to use any magical items.

Ziegander
2011-10-15, 05:36 PM
Only for the purposes of crafting, though. It still requires UMD to use any magical items.

Hmm. Needs to be worded better then. If it knows the spells, then it can use them from items without making UMD checks.

And even if it has to UMD them it still has 5th level spells from every list and has direct spell access in many forms.

erikun
2011-10-15, 06:29 PM
Hmm. Needs to be worded better then. If it knows the spells, then it can use them from items without making UMD checks.

And even if it has to UMD them it still has 5th level spells from every list and has direct spell access in many forms.
I'm not sure how the official class handled it, so I think I'll leave it in its current (poorly worded) state until I have a better idea of how to correct it.

And I notice I'm not the only one who decided to give it all bad saves. :smallsmile: It's a craftsman, not a combatant! Why should it be good at combat? :smalltongue:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-15, 06:31 PM
And I notice I'm not the only one who decided to give it all bad saves. :smallsmile: It's a craftsman, not a combatant! Why should it be good at combat? :smalltongue:

You should give it good reflex and fortitude saves, improved mettle, and improved evasion. All those failed expiriments... :smalltongue:

But then it would be tier 5.

erikun
2011-10-15, 06:38 PM
You should give it good reflex and fortitude saves, improved mettle, and improved evasion. All those failed expiriments... :smalltongue:
The Rincewind
{TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+2|+2|+2|Movement Speed +10, May not Multiclass
2|+1|+3|+3|+3|Improved Mettle
3|+1|+3|+3|+3|Improved Evasion
4|+2|+4|+4|+4|Movement Speed +20
5|+2|+4|+4|+4|
6|+3|+5|+5|+5|
7|+3|+5|+5|+5|Movement Speed +30
8|+4|+6|+6|+6|
9|+4|+6|+6|+6|
10|+5|+7|+7|+7|Movement Speed +40
11|+5|+7|+7|+7|
12|+6|+8|+8|+8|
13|+6|+8|+8|+8|Movement Speed +50
14|+7|+9|+9|+9|
15|+7|+9|+9|+9|
16|+8|+10|+10|+10|Movement Speed +60
17|+8|+10|+10|+10|
18|+9|+11|+11|+11|
19|+9|+11|+11|+11|Movement Speed +70
20|+10|+12|+12|+12|
[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d6
Class Skills: Rincewind is unskilled at everything
:smalltongue:

dspeyer
2011-10-15, 06:42 PM
Common Thug, version 2

{table=head]level|fort|ref|wis|bab|special
1|2|0|0|1|swift appraisal
2|3|0|0|2|stone dragon maneuver (1st level)
3|3|1|1|3|
4|4|1|1|4|Improved Unarmed Strike
5|4|1|1|5|stone dragon maneuver (2nd level)
6|5|2|2|6|
7|5|2|2|7|Dodge
8|6|2|2|8|stone dragon maneuver (3rd level)
9|6|3|3|9|
10|7|3|3|10|Weapon Focus (choose one weapon)
11|7|3|3|11|stone dragon maneuver (4th level)
12|8|4|4|12|
13|8|4|4|13|Mobility
14|9|4|4|14|stone dragon maneuver (5th level)
15|9|5|5|15|
16|10|5|5|16|Combat Expertise
17|10|5|5|17|stone dragon maneuver (6th level)
18|11|6|6|18|
19|11|6|6|19|Improved Feint
20|12|6|6|20|genre savvy[/table]
Weapon Proficiencies: Unarmed Strike, Dagger,Club, Spear, Javelin, Sap
Armor Proficiencies: None

Otherwise unchanged.

dspeyer
2011-10-15, 06:44 PM
Class Skills: Rincewind is unskilled at everything


Speak Language, surely?

And he's pretty good at Knowledge(arcana), Knowledge (the planes), and Craft (bookbinding), but those don't fit the class so much.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-15, 06:44 PM
The Rincewind
{TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+2|+2|+2|Movement Speed +10, May not Multiclass
2|+1|+3|+3|+3|Improved Mettle
3|+1|+3|+3|+3|Improved Evasion
4|+2|+4|+4|+4|Movement Speed +20
5|+2|+4|+4|+4|
6|+3|+5|+5|+5|
7|+3|+5|+5|+5|Movement Speed +30
8|+4|+6|+6|+6|
9|+4|+6|+6|+6|
10|+5|+7|+7|+7|Movement Speed +40
11|+5|+7|+7|+7|
12|+6|+8|+8|+8|
13|+6|+8|+8|+8|Movement Speed +50
14|+7|+9|+9|+9|
15|+7|+9|+9|+9|
16|+8|+10|+10|+10|Movement Speed +60
17|+8|+10|+10|+10|
18|+9|+11|+11|+11|
19|+9|+11|+11|+11|Movement Speed +70
20|+10|+12|+12|+12|
[/TABLE]
Hit Dice: d6
Class Skills: Rincewind is unskilled at everything
:smalltongue:

Give it DR 10/- per class level, immunity to all energy types, a constant Death Ward as an (Ex) ability, and d12 hit die.

It'll be useless, but unkillable. The thing you play when people complain you're a power gamer because you're dealing 40 damage at level
10. :smallbiggrin:

dspeyer
2011-10-15, 07:56 PM
All things have their opposites. This is the opposite of the common thug.

The Aesthete

Just as modern cuisine allows food to transcend nutrition, so do I allow violence to transcend such banal matters as victory.

{table=head]level|fort|ref|will|bab|strikes known|counters known|counters set
1|0|2|0|0|2|0|0
2|0|3|0|1|2|0|0
3|1|3|1|1|2|1|1
4|1|4|1|2|2|1|1
5|1|4|1|2|3|1|1
6|2|5|2|3|3|1|1
7|2|5|2|3|3|2|1
8|2|6|2|4|3|2|1
9|3|6|3|4|4|2|1
10|3|7|3|5|4|2|2
11|3|7|3|5|4|3|2
12|4|8|4|6|4|3|2
13|4|8|4|6|5|3|2
14|4|9|4|7|5|3|2
15|5|9|5|7|5|4|2
16|5|10|5|8|5|4|2
17|5|10|5|8|6|4|2
18|6|11|6|9|6|4|2
19|6|11|6|9|6|4|3
20|6|12|6|10|6|4|3[/table]
Hit Die: d4
Class Skills: Balance, Martial Lore, Perform, Tumble
Skill Points: 2+int
Weapons: unarmed strike, nunchuku, falcion, kama
Armor: none
Martial Disciplines: Desert Wind, Setting Sun

An aesthete does not swap out maneuvers at even levels the way a normal martial character does, nor does he learn boosts or stances, nor ready and expend maneuvers.

Strikes: When an aesthete chooses to strike, he ignores tactics and selects the most option. Unfortunately, aesthetes have no taste, so in practice he chooses randomly from all strikes he knows. If the strike is impossible under the current circumstances, he wastes the remainder of his turn flourishing his weapon ineffectively.

Counters: An aesthete cannot decide to activate a counter. Instead, he sets them. Once a counter is set, he *must* execute it when the relevant condition occurs. Starting at 10th level, he can set multiple counters simultaneously. If the relevant conditions for multiple set counters occur simultaneously, none are activated.

DracoDei
2011-10-15, 08:32 PM
Actually, I may just stick with what I have, but put it in another thread. Variety is good(but not for this specific thread)... or maybe I will do both. OTOH we do have two other attempts in this thread, and if those suffice...


Lesser Martialist: at level twenty, this enters an encounter able to perform 2 9th level maneuvers and an 8th level maneuver many times. They can be chosen from good disciplines. That's too good for T6, even if everything else about the class sucks.
So would 2/3 initiator progression be the way to go (if anywhere), or is 3/4 actually acceptable? All the way down to 1/2?

No. By strict RAW, it requires warblade, swordsage, or crusader level 1st. By RAMS, it requires one level in a martial adept class.
Ah, will specifically nerf-bat that then if I continue with this.


Even without Adaptive Style, with the stances it's still tier 5 at the minimum.
Well, reducing the initiator level progression should help with that too, but I can reduce that too if people think it necessary.

dspeyer
2011-10-15, 08:43 PM
So would 2/3 initiator progression be the way to go (if anywhere), or is 3/4 actually acceptable? All the way down to 1/2?

1/2 would probably be too far, since at that point a warrior can just take martial study. 3/4 is simpler, since it's a new maneuver level every 3 class levels. I'm not sure what 2/3 looks like.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-15, 09:37 PM
They already get extra pp from having a high intelligence modifier, and Expanded Knowledge can get them more stuff.

The Elementalist is stronger than you think; Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) at 6th level would be a lovely boost...

Dang, I just noticed that they have 1/3 manifesting level; I would suggest raising that to 1/2, just because it comes out a little nicer, in my mind (and they wouldn't be able to manifest 4th level powers with a manifester level of 6. Sorry.)

I specifically left it at 1/3ML, simply because they can still take that feat if they so choose. If I raise their ML any, I'll be putting a ban on Expanded Knowledge. What is the general consensus on this? Raise ML to 1/2 and block the feat, or leave it as is? I kind of feel I should block the feat, after much reconsideration, but I'd like to hear what you all think.

Veklim
2011-10-16, 07:52 AM
Leave as is, it's the class in itself which is aiming for T6, optimisation is a completely seperate consideration. Besides, at 1/3 ML having access to Exp. Knowledge doesn't help so much.

Amechra
2011-10-16, 09:02 AM
I was actually suggesting a ML of 1/2 level because they LITERALLY CANNOT USE A 4TH LEVEL POWER!

That would require a ML of 7, which would require level 21.

dspeyer
2011-10-16, 12:06 PM
I was actually suggesting a ML of 1/2 level because they LITERALLY CANNOT USE A 4TH LEVEL POWER!

That would require a ML of 7, which would require level 21.

Not true. There's no general rule linking ML to powers known. Most 4th lvl powers cost 7pp, but energy burst only costs 5.

Garryl
2011-10-16, 12:18 PM
Not true. There's no general rule linking ML to powers known. Most 4th lvl powers cost 7pp, but energy burst only costs 5.

Since the class does not specifically state otherwise, yet still made learns it as a 4th level power, Energy Burst costs 7 PP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints).


An Elementalist's manifester level goes up slowly, once every third level (1 at 1st, 2 at third, et cetra).

This is slightly confusing. The text says 1 ML per 3 levels, which would mean an ML of 0 from level 1-2, ML 1 at level 3, ML 2 at level 6, ML 3 at level 9, ML 4 at level 12, ML 5 at level 15, and ML 6 at level 18. However, the example states otherwise. Judging from the example and the levels at which new powers are gained, was the ML supposed to be 1 + 1/3 class levels?

Edit:


1/2 would probably be too far, since at that point a warrior can just take martial study. 3/4 is simpler, since it's a new maneuver level every 3 class levels. I'm not sure what 2/3 looks like.

New maneuver levels come every 2 IL. A 2/3 IL progression gives a new level of maneuvers every 3 levels (1st level maneuvers come at level 2, up until 7th level maneuvers at level 20). A 3/4 IL progression gives 3 levels of maneuvers over the course of every 8 levels (1st level maneuvers come at level 2, 2nd at 4, 3rd at 7, 4th at 10, 5th at 12, 6th at 15, 7th at 18, and 8th at level 20).

Amechra
2011-10-16, 12:27 PM
That's because Energy Burst is a 3rd level power.

I mean, check Empathic Feedback; it shows the difference in power point costs through a power having a different pp cost based on being different levels for different classes.

And, as for it never explicitly says that it needs to cost x many PP...


POWER POINTS
All powers have a Power Points line, indicating the power’s cost.

The psionic character class tables show how many power points a character has access to each day, depending on level.

A power’s cost is determined by its level, as shown below. Every power’s cost is noted in its description for ease of reference.
Table: Power Points by Power Level
{table]Power Level|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
Power Point Cost|1|3|5|7|9|11|13|15|17[/table]

Please do the research before you make claims.

EDIT: Damn it, Garryl, stop poststealing, you ninja you!

dspeyer
2011-10-16, 12:30 PM
Ah, I'd missed that. I'd gotten used to looking at power descriptions. Energy Burst is usually 3rd level.

It would seem elegant to increase the base damage to 7d6. Or maybe neater to just swap in energy ball.

Also it would be neater if the new powers all occurred at 6n+1, instead of 6n except the first. And it might be clearer if ml were a column in the table.

dspeyer
2011-10-16, 01:17 PM
These are addictive.

The Hunter-Gatherer

Somehow when civilized folks say "barbarian" they aren't thinking of a rich oral tradition and a flexible social structure rooted in respect for the tribal elders.

{table]||||||spells|known|spells|per day
level|fort|ref|will|bab|special|0th|1st|0th|1st
1|0|0|0|0|favored family +2||||
2|0|0|0|1|track||||
3|1|1|1|1|there are no stores (+2 on all craft checks)||||
4|1|1|1|2|endurance||||
5|1|1|1|2|hide in plain sight (natural terrain only)||||
6|2|2|2|3|favored family +4/+2|2||1|
7|2|2|2|3||2||2|
8|2|2|2|4|animal companion (as 1st level druid)|3||2|
9|3|3|3|4||3||3|
10|3|3|3|5||4||3|
11|3|3|3|5|favored family +6/+4/+2|4||4|
12|4|4|4|6||5||4|
13|4|4|4|6|animal companion (as 4th level druid)|5|1|4|0
14|4|4|4|7||5|1|4|1
15|5|5|5|7||5|1|5|1
16|5|5|5|8|favored family +8/+6/+4/+2|6|1|5|1
17|5|5|5|8||6|2|5|1
18|6|6|6|9|animal companion (as 8th level druid)|6|2|5|2
19|6|6|6|9||6|2|6|2
20|6|6|6|10|commune with nature 1/day|6|3|6|2[/table]
Hit die: d6
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Use Rope
Skill Points: 8+int
Weapons: Dagger, Club, Spear and Shortbow
Armor: none

Spellcasting is spontaneous, wisdom-based and from the druid list.

favored family: pick a family of animals or plants (such as bears or roses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosaceae)). Gain a +2 bonus on survival, knowledge(nature) and search checks related to that family. Every five levels, gain another family and increase all existing families by 2.

edit: add 1 to all the 0th level spells/day because there are no bonus 0th level spells

Paulcynic
2011-10-16, 11:55 PM
Housecat
"Meow" -Housecat

-Is a housecat
lul


THE SELF-DEFENSE ENTHUSIAST
The Title made me chuckle, yet the class seems a perfect T6 :) ty for the contribution.


Wretched Coward
I loved this one, its really in the spirit of the thread! Also, I appreciate all of the psionic conversions, though Pathfinder doesn't yet have them, and so I'll leave the critiques to the 3.5 crowd :)


is the master angry?
Believe it or not, you're actually creating some useful social abilities, lul. Humor aside :)


The School Teacher
Totally awesome, I actually think a Bard/School Teacher would make a great combo, but then again... if you drop the Bard it'd be even better!

Thanks all, glad this has taken on a life of its own :)

--PC

DracoDei
2011-10-26, 03:57 PM
These are addictive.

The Hunter-Gatherer

Somehow when civilized folks say "barbarian" they aren't thinking of a rich oral tradition and a flexible social structure rooted in respect for the tribal elders.

{table]||||||spells|known|spells|per day
level|fort|ref|will|bab|special|0th|1st|0th|1st
1|0|0|0|0|favored family +2||||
2|0|0|0|1|track||||
3|1|1|1|1|there are no stores (+2 on all craft checks)||||
4|1|1|1|2|endurance||||
5|1|1|1|2|hide in plain sight (natural terrain only)||||
6|2|2|2|3|favored family +4/+2|2||0|
7|2|2|2|3||2||1|
8|2|2|2|4|animal companion (as 1st level druid)|3||1|
9|3|3|3|4||3||2|
10|3|3|3|5||4||2|
11|3|3|3|5|favored family +6/+4/+2|4||3|
12|4|4|4|6||5||3|
13|4|4|4|6|animal companion (as 4th level druid)|5|1|3|0
14|4|4|4|7||5|1|3|1
15|5|5|5|7||5|1|4|1
16|5|5|5|8|favored family +8/+6/+4/+2|6|1|4|1
17|5|5|5|8||6|2|4|1
18|6|6|6|9|animal companion (as 8th level druid)|6|2|4|2
19|6|6|6|9||6|2|5|2
20|6|6|6|10|commune with nature 1/day|6|3|5|2[/table]
Hit die: d6
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Use Rope
Skill Points: 8+int
Weapons: Dagger, Club, Spear and Shortbow
Armor: none

Spellcasting is spontaneous, wisdom-based and from the druid list.

favored family: pick a family of animals or plants (such as bears or roses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosaceae)). Gain a +2 bonus on survival, knowledge(nature) and search checks related to that family. Every five levels, gain another family and increase all existing families by 2.
You need to bump up the 0th level spells per day by 1 each or otherwise modify, because you don't get bonus 0th levels. Maybe say that any bonus spells of higher than the highest level you can cast (at that particular class level) apply to 0th level instead? It would be an odd mechanic, but I think it would work...

Veklim
2011-10-27, 11:53 AM
Just go 1 at 6/7, then 2 at 8/9/10.
Sorted!

dspeyer
2011-10-27, 07:56 PM
You need to bump up the 0th level spells per day by 1 each or otherwise modify, because you don't get bonus 0th levels.

Edited in.

Noctis Vigil
2011-11-19, 02:12 AM
I apologize if I'm breaking forum etiquette by reviving this; I finished this one a bit ago but never got to posting it.

I'm not sure about this one. I feel that the Barbarian is already a pretty crappy class, so it kind of hurt to make it crappier. Still, here you go, a T6 Barbarian:

Savage
{TABLE=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
1|
+1|+2|+0|+0|Illiteracy
2|
+2|+3|+0|+0|Rage 1/day
3|
+3|+3|+1|+1|
4|
+4|+4|+1|+1|Fast Movement
5|
+5|+4|+1|+1|
6|
+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Rage 2/day
7|
+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|
8|
+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|
9|
+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|
10|
+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Rage 3/day
11|
+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Damage Reduction 1/-
12|
+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|
13|
+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|
14|
+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Rage 4/day
15|
+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|
16|
+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Damage Reduction 2/-
17|
+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|
18|
+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Rage 5/day
19|
+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|
20|
+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|[/TABLE]
Hit Die: D10
Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Proficiencies: Savages are proficient with all simple weapons, the handaxe, the warhammer, the greataxe and the greatclub. They are proficient with light armor and with light shields.

Illiteracy, Rage, Fast Movement, Damage Reduction: As the Barbarian class abilities of the same name.

I feel the full BAB may be too much; should I make it 3/4BAB?

Also, edited the Elementalist to gain ML at every odd level.

Also also, still working on a T6 Ranger/Scout.

For easy perusal, all my T6 classes are on the first page in my first post in this thread.

Ashtagon
2011-11-19, 02:48 AM
That savage is overpowered. It's T5 at least, possibly even T4.

Drop uncanny dodge and tireless rage.

Move fast movement to 4th level.

3/4 BAB

Noctis Vigil
2011-11-19, 03:03 AM
T5 I can understand, but how in heck does this hit T4? :smallconfused: The original Barbarian is solidly in 4. Still, I will nerf it.

Tireless Rage can go, I can see where it's breaking the limit. Uncanny Dodge was also removed. I left the BAB at full; it's no more powerful than my Holy Warrior T6 at this point.

dangermunk
2011-11-23, 10:56 PM
I have never home-brewed and my doctor says I have a table allergy, but how about the spectaculenduferous class
...
The Fat Person
Advantages: takes significantly less falling damage, has a lot of hit points, some resistance to blunt weapons, and can sit on an enemy by moving into their square and making an unarmed check

Disadvantages: slow, worse at dodge rolls, and bad at disguise and diplomacy checks

Possible other abilities: chokes enemies by smothering them, anvil-like flattening abilities, and ability to increase size at will