PDA

View Full Version : Savant Remake PEACH



hex0
2011-10-12, 02:18 PM
So, I've always been interested in the Savant class (Dragon Compendium). It is sort of the 'grandfather' of the Factotum. I've wanted to redo it for a long time, but each draft ended up more like the Factotum. This redesign fixes the Savant's strange (and weak) spell progression, and lets the player customize and copy another class feature instead of just giving the Savant a weak sneak attack. I'm aiming for a tier 3 class that is interesting and skillful, without being overkill. Please let me know how I did! Thanks!

Edit: Version 2 follows below! Streamlined! Thanks for the input everyone.

Here is version 2.5! Thanks for the input!


Custom
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Trapfinding, Academic Lore, Insightful Reflexes

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Talent Lore

3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|Class Lore

4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Arcane Lore

5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Ability Lore

6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|Divine Lore

7th|+5|+2|+2|+5|Talent Lore

8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|

9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|Class Lore

10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|Ability Lore

11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7|Skill Mastery

12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Talent Lore

13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|

14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Class Lore, Ability Lore

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Talent Lore

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Ability Lore
[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d8

Class Skills:
All Skills are class skills.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Savants are proficient with all simple weapons, with light armor, and with shields (except Tower Shields). In addition, a Savant is proficient with any two martial weapons and one exotic weapon of his or her choice.

Class Features:

Trapfinding: As the Rogue class feature.

Academic Lore: As the Bardic Knowledge class feature.

Insightful Reflexes: The Savant may add his or her Intelligence bonus as an insight bonus on Reflex saves. This bonus may not exceed his or her class level.

Talent Lore: Starting at 2nd level, and every five levels after, a Savant may choose any feat as a bonus feat. He or she must still meet the requirements for the feat.

Class Lore: A Savant is a master of mimicry. At 3rd level, the Savant chooses a class feature another base class has from the list below. The Savant gains this feature, and may use it as though he or she has a number of class levels in that class equal to 1/3 the Savant's class levels (rounded down). Calculate uses per day, increased save DCs, access to 'greater' versions, progressions based on class levels (such as a Rogue's sneak attack) based on this. For example: a level 9 Savant with Rogue class lore has Sneak Attack +2d6, just like a level 3 rogue.

{table=head]Class|Class Feature
Barbarian|Rage
Bard|Bardic Music
Cleric|Turn Undead
Druid|Animal Companion
Fighter|Access to "Fighter only" bonus feats
Monk|Unarmed Strike and Ki Strike
Paladin|Smite Evil
Ranger|Favored Enemy
Rogue|Sneak Attack
Sorcerer|Familiar
Wizard|Familiar
[/table]

The Savant chooses a different class feature at levels 9 and 15.

With DM approval, the Savant may choose an ability from another class, such as a Scout's Skirmish or a Hexblade's Curse.

Arcane lore: A Savant learns to dabble in the underlying forces of the universe. At level 4, the Savant obtains a spellbook at no cost and gains the ability to cast arcane spells as though he or she were a Wizard of 1/2 the Savant's class level (rounded down). Unlike a Wizard, a Savant can cast these spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.

If the Savant already has Wizard levels (or later gains them), he or she adds 1/2 of his or her Savant class levels (rounded down) to his or her Wizard levels and casts as though a Wizard of that level. The Savant may still cast in light armor.

No other abilities of the Wizard are gained.

Divine Lore: A Savant learns how to channel the power of the Gods. At level 6, the Savant gains the ability to cast divine spells as though he or she were a Cleric of 1/2 the Savant's class level (rounded down).

If the Savant already has Cleric levels (or later gains them), he or she adds 1/2 of his or her Savant class levels (rounded down) to his or her Cleric levels and casts as though a Cleric of that level.

No other abilities of the Cleric, such as the ability to spontaneously cast "cure" or "inflict" spells or domains, are gained.

Ability Lore: At level 5, the Savant has learned how to benefit his or her self from experience better than the average adventurer. The Savant chooses one of his or her ability scores and increases it by one to reflect this personal growth.

At levels 10, 15, and 20, the Savant chooses a different ability score and increases it by one.

Skill Mastery: At level 11, the Savant gains becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + his or her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

Amechra
2011-10-12, 06:14 PM
Class Lore is too weak; 3 7th level class features are not going to be very useful at 20th level.

Pyromancer999
2011-10-12, 06:38 PM
You know what I see in here that I hate? Dead levels. Lots of them. Here's a tip to help you cover up those dead levels and provide motivation to not put in dead levels in future classes: Imagine you're being repeatedly smacked in the face with a dead rotten fish for every dead level you make.

Alrighty then, dead level hate aside, looks good, although Amechra does have a point.

BelGareth
2011-10-12, 06:55 PM
1st Off I'm unassuming this is a 3.5 class? IT doesn't say so, but you might want to put it into the title or post somewhere, or maybe i missed it?




Class Features:

This is obvious, no need to have this there.



Trapfinding: As the Rogue class feature.

Academic Lore: As the Bardic Knowledge class feature.


This seems a little lazy, 3.5 is OGL, get the actual ability and put it up so we can see the actual text and not have to rely on memory or having to flip to another book.



Insightful Reflexes: A Savant may add his or her Intelligence bonus as an insight bonus on Reflex saves. This bonus may not exceed his or her class level.

Cannot exceed level? that seems redundant, as who is going to have a +20? maybe 1/2 level? then it grows with the class at a reasonable rate.



Talent Lore: Starting at 2nd level, and every six levels after, a Savant may choose any feat as a bonus feat. He or she must still meet the requirements for the feat.

This seems weak, maybe every 5 levels? 6 is just...odd



Class Lore: At 3rd level a Savant chooses any Extraordinary or Supernatural class feature another base class receives at 1st level. The Savant gains this feature, and may use it as though he or she has a number of class levels in that class equal to 1/3 the Savant's class levels (rounded down). Calculate uses per day, increased save DCs, access to 'greater' versions, progressions based on class levels (such as a Rogue's sneak attack) based on this. For example: a level 15 Savant chose Hexblade's Curse for Class Lore at level 3. The Savant can use the Hexblade's Curse 2/day and the DC would be (10 + 1/2 the Savant's effective Hexblade level + CHA), just like a level 5 Hexblade.

Spellcasting, psionic powers, manuevers, etc. can not be chosen with this ability.

The Savant chooses another class feature at levels 9 and 15. This may or may not be from the same class.


Again a little lazy, why not provide a specific list of said possibilities? This would give players/DM's the chance to see the power of this ability for what it is. And maybe gain it at a more standard gain rate? maybe 4, 8,12 and 16?

Otherwise this is awesome.



Synergy Lore: At level 4, the synergy bonuses a Savant has increases to +4

Did I miss something here? Is this from the original class?



Arcane lore: At level 5, a Savant gains the ability to cast arcane spells as though he or she were a Wizard of 1/2 the Savant's class level (rounded down). Unlike a Wizard, a Savant may cast spells in light armor and/or while using a shield without risking the chance of arcane spell failure.

If the Savant already has Wizard levels (or later gains them), he or she adds 1/2 his or her Savant levels to his or her Wizard levels and casts as though a Wizard of that level.

No other abilities of the Wizard are gained.

Nice.



Divine Lore: At level 10, a Savant gains the ability to cast divine spells as though he or she were a Cleric of 1/2 the Savant's class level (rounded down).

If the Savant already has Cleric levels (or later gains them), he or she adds 1/2 his or her Savant levels to his or her Cleric levels and casts as though a Cleric of that level.

No other abilities of the Cleric are gained.

I think this is weak, and is no different than the original class. Maybe they should both progress at the same time? would be much cooler and less a total waist of time. What use is gaining a 1st level spell at 10th?



Secret Lore: At level 11 and every 5 after, a Savant gains a Secret Lore ability from the following list:

Skill Mastery: as the Rogue special ability.

Domain: The Savant chooses any one Domain and gains its granted power. The Savant may also prepare its spells as though they were on the Cleric's spell list, but gains no domain slots.

Advanced Class Lore: The Savant gains any one second level class feature of any class that was chosen with the Class Lore feature. For example: A Savant chose the Scout's Skirmish class feature for his or her Class Lore. By taking Advanced class lore, he or she also gains the Scout's Battle Fortitude class feature as though he or she had a number of Scout levels equal to 1/3 his or her Savant levels.

Class Lore Mastery: As Advanced Class Lore, but a 3rd level ability may be chosen. Requires: Advanced Class Lore.



Weak. 11th level and every 5 after, you mean 11th and 16th? This needs to be changed to more distinct gain rate (as before) maybe 11th, 13th and 15th. Again you should include a list of possible abilities they may acquire.



Timeless Body: As the Monk class feature.
This seems completely out of place. Why did you include it? Maybe some fluff to explain why?

Additional Comments:
Try filling in the dead levels, no one likes a dead level. Spells are nice, filling out the dual caster out the 20 levels will take a lot of that away. All in all its a great concept, needs some more refining though.

Hope I helped:smallsmile:

hex0
2011-10-12, 07:21 PM
Thanks for the reply! I'll change some things around....

1. Yes this is 3.5

2. I'll remove that.

3. I'll put in the text. I really didn't like the ability that the Savant had, so I felt that giving them the Bard ability and calling it something else would work much better. (like the Cloistered Cleric)

4. This is based on the Warblade ability, which I like as it is. I like this kind of feature better than Grace.

5. 6 is odd, but 5 seemed a bit overpowered. I'll consider it once I shuffle things around.

6. 1/3 is just a standard gain rate, BUT it stacks if multiclassing (like Daring Outlaw etc.). A full list would be a bit long but I'll consider it.

7. Not in the original class, but a bit silly. Probably will remove it.

8. Nice indeed. :smallamused:

9. You are right. I think I'll change it to 5th as well...but I'm trying to figure out the balance. :smallfurious:

10. I think I'm going to scrub this and incorporate it elsewhere.

hex0
2011-10-12, 07:26 PM
Wow. Lots of comments at the same time. Thanks! :smallsmile:

I'd like to argue the levels aren't that dead since you get spells and other class features every three levels.

For example at level 20 you'd be able to cast as a level 10 wizard, level 10 cleric, sneak attack like a 6th level rogue, rage like a level 6 barbarian, and bardic music like a level 6 bard. And have 3/4 BAB, 6 skills of any skill, and some free bonus feats. I'm having a hard time balancing all this!

I want this to be the Gestalt-in-a-can.

Amechra
2011-10-12, 08:05 PM
Seriously?

Class Lore is WAY too weak; you could bring it up to 1/2 level, and it wouldn't be too strong.

Actually, try this out for size: You gain the feature as a member of that class of half your level, but you use your Savant level to determine the saves for the ability.

For Arcane and Divine Lore, I suggest getting them earlier, and actually, you know, statting out the full spell table.

Actually, you know what, here you go:

Savant Spells per Day
{table=head]Level|{colsp=6}Arcane Spells|{colsp=6}Divine Spells
|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1|3|-|-|-|-|-|3|+1|-|-|-|-
2|3|1|-|-|-|-|3|1+1|-|-|-|-
3|4|1|-|-|-|-|3|2+1|-|-|-|-
4|4|2|-|-|-|-|4|2+1|-|-|-|-
5|4|2|-|-|-|-|4|2+1|+1|-|-|-
6|4|2|1|-|-|-|4|2+1|1+1|-|-|-
7|4|3|1|-|-|-|5|3+1|1+1|-|-|-
8|4|3|2|-|-|-|5|3+1|2+1|-|-|-
9|4|3|2|-|-|-|5|3+1|2+1|+1|-|-
10|4|3|2|1|-|-|5|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-
11|4|3|3|1|-|-|5|3+1|3+1|1+1|-|-
12|4|3|3|2|-|-|5|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-
13|4|4|3|2|-|-|5|4+1|3+1|2+1|+1|
14|4|4|3|2|1|-|6|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-
15|4|4|3|3|1|-|6|4+1|3+1|3+1|1+1|-
16|4|4|3|3|2|-|6|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-
17|4|4|4|3|2|-|6|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|+1
18|4|4|4|3|2|1|6|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1
19|4|4|4|3|3|1|6|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|1+1
20|4|4|4|3|3|2|6|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1[/table]

Any point with a +1 means that they only get a Domain spell at that level.

And what happened to Skill Lore (or whatever it was called), you know, the Savant's ability to share skill ranks with others (so the Paladin could temporarily learn how to pick locks, or some such.)

hex0
2011-10-12, 09:01 PM
honestly, I dont really like the skill lore ability that much. It just seems like something a feat would give.

going up to fifth level spells seems a tad much. I know having 4 spell levels of arcane and divine isnt gamebreaking.

When I have some more time Ill write it up differently so they proceed in an alternating order, instead. I really do not want the class to have its own table, rather I want it to be a little bit of everything and to be multiclass friendly.

Amechra
2011-10-14, 12:15 AM
The thing is, having it's own table and just drawing from the other class' lists is easier (it just helps consolidate everything together and makes it easy to check.)

hex0
2011-10-23, 06:52 PM
The thing is, having it's own table and just drawing from the other class' lists is easier (it just helps consolidate everything together and makes it easy to check.)

I did this.

Version 2 is up!

I'm still uneasy about handing out 5th level arcane and divine spells. So I changed it to 1/3 Wizard and Cleric. At level 20 you'll have 8th level abilities of 5 different classes, mid BAB, d8 hit die, 6 skills, +1 to all stats, extra feats....5th level arcane and divine on top of that seems a bit much.

Little Brother
2011-10-23, 07:16 PM
I think half is better for spells. At level twenty, you'll be looking at third-level spells. That isn't good. I think just casting at half looks better. I might make the class lore start at 1/3, and turn to half-level at some point, maybe 8 or 10.

Beyond that, I love it. It's fantastic. It's exactly what I would have wanted the class to look like.

Does the Savant start with a spellbook, though? I might let it cast without material components, but maybe not, just an off-the-wall idea. At least, don't make it have to use a holy symbol.

But, again, I love it. Great job.

EDIT: I also kinda like the idea of giving it a domain. Just an idea. Otherwise, it feels more like an archivist. If it doesn't get the domain, it should get the Dark Knowledge-y-stuffs.

hex0
2011-10-23, 07:43 PM
Actually 5th level spells isn't going to break the class. There is already a full BAB class with two good saves that gets 5th level spells pretty fast (Duskblade). I think a little re-tooling is needed again.

I didn't want to tread on the Archivist too much since it already has its own unique thing going.

Domains can get obtained by PRCs and I don't want them to step on the Cleric too hard either.

At 1/2, you'll get 5th level spells at 18th level...When the full casters are flinging time stops around.

Little Brother
2011-10-23, 07:53 PM
Actually 5th level spells isn't going to break the class. There is already a full BAB class with two good saves that gets 5th level spells pretty fast (Duskblade). I think a little re-tooling is needed again.

I didn't want to tread on the Archivist too much since it already has its own unique thing going.

Domains can get obtained by PRCs and I don't want them to step on the Cleric too hard either.

At 1/2, you'll get 5th level spells at 18th level...When the full casters are flinging time stops around.Exactly, but why not give it, say, the Knowledge Domain or the Rune Domain, or some other specific, fluffy domain. A domain the is based around education and knowledge and such.That domain slot is really worth a lot, I'd give it to them.

Also, I'd make the Divine also based on Int, just 'cuz they're already fairly MAD. But it is just an idea. I'd also make them full CL, or else they die to a dispel. Or let them burn one of their class lores on full CL.

hex0
2011-10-23, 08:10 PM
Exactly, but why not give it, say, the Knowledge Domain or the Rune Domain, or some other specific, fluffy domain. A domain the is based around education and knowledge and such.That domain slot is really worth a lot, I'd give it to them.

Also, I'd make the Divine also based on Int, just 'cuz they're already fairly MAD. But it is just an idea. I'd also make them full CL, or else they die to a dispel. Or let them burn one of their class lores on full CL.

Version 2.5 is up. Not quite a MAD class since it gets ability boosts. The original class had WIS and INT for casting, so I'm okay with it. There are full casters that have two stats anyway (Favored Soul, etc.).

I don't want to give out a free domain because unlike other classes, you can multiclass to Cleric to pick it up without much problem. This is the ultimate multiclass-in-a-can. You can progress up to 20 or jump in or out easily.

I didn't think about the caster level issue, but I'm not sure how to write it. I think that kind of drawback should be built in for balance and there isn't anything from stopping you from taking practiced spellcaster for one of your talent lores. :smallwink: It is all about the options!

Little Brother
2011-10-23, 08:41 PM
Version 2.5 is up. Not quite a MAD class since it gets ability boosts. The original class had WIS and INT for casting, so I'm okay with it. There are full casters that have two stats anyway (Favored Soul, etc.).

I don't want to give out a free domain because unlike other classes, you can multiclass to Cleric to pick it up without much problem. This is the ultimate multiclass-in-a-can. You can progress up to 20 or jump in or out easily.

I didn't think about the caster level issue, but I'm not sure how to write it. I think that kind of drawback should be built in for balance and there isn't anything from stopping you from taking practiced spellcaster for one of your talent lores. :smallwink: It is all about the options!Yes, but Favored Soul is awful among full casters. It is strictly inferior to the sorcerer.

But domains really don't mean much. I mean, you can pick them up through feats. Giving them a free one wouldn't do much at all, just a little nudge in the right direction, and a fluff thing as much as anything.

Just say it has the spells/day and spells known as a Cleric/Wizard of 1/2 its level.

hex0
2011-10-23, 09:02 PM
I fixed it to 1/2 wizard and cleric, now :)

Little Brother
2011-10-24, 08:06 AM
I fixed it to 1/2 wizard and cleric, now :)Much better. Awesome.

Why not let it take domains as one of the class lores? And is there any particular reason for levels 4 and 6? Why not both start at level four? It might seem much, bet everyone else has at least second level spells, possibly higher in a high-op game, so it'd probably end up like a theurge in a mid-level game, good and useful, but out-cast by the full casters.

You might want to make a class lore for cleric "You gain access and the benefits of one domain. If you do not have access to cleric casting through the Savant class, you gain it." If so, might as well add that to the wizard, and cut the Sorcerer all together, as it seems redundant.

Also, you probably should include the Spells/Day in the OP.

neilthrun
2011-10-24, 10:33 AM
I wanted to point out that the Academic Knowledge class feature, as per Dragon Compendium, is not Bardic Knowledge (although it stacks), its actually a better ability.

Where as BK pertains to information known in legend and rumors, Academic Knowledge explicitly states it can sit in for any kind of knowledge check, and that in fact whenever you make a knowledge check you can also make the Academic Lore check. this is above and beyond the BK description, and not OGL (although I think my paraphrasing isn't copy wright violation, mods delete if it is)

Little Brother
2011-10-24, 10:39 AM
I wanted to point out that the Academic Knowledge class feature, as per Dragon Compendium, is not Bardic Knowledge (although it stacks), its actually a better ability.

Where as BK pertains to information known in legend and rumors, Academic Knowledge explicitly states it can sit in for any kind of knowledge check, and that in fact whenever you make a knowledge check you can also make the Academic Lore check. this is above and beyond the BK description, and not OGL (although I think my paraphrasing isn't copy wright violation, mods delete if it is)Oh, hey, you're right.

It should be like that, then. Bardic Knowledge, IIRC, is kinda meh. I always swapped it out for Bardic Knack with Jack of All Trades

neilthrun
2011-10-28, 01:45 PM
The remake looks okay. Personally I like the Savant as a 1, 2 or 3 level dip. I find it useful in a lot of skill builds.

bindin garoth
2011-10-29, 01:12 PM
I find the lack of a capstone to be slightly disturbing. Perhaps one that would allow a Savant to change his class lore ability 1/day upon meditation?

As for dead levels, perhaps something similiar for them (like a floating feat)?

Also, you could take from the pact augmentations of binders (renamed Insights or Focuses, something like that? :smallconfused:) (and perhaps add a few choices to the list). It'd be a small bonus that'd help them with whatever they'd like to focus on (or spread out as needed). Allow them to change it by meditating at the beginning of each day.

JackRackham
2011-11-06, 02:35 PM
Great job with this. I'd love to play this class.